We Need To Talk About The MCU's Third Act Problem
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- We love the Marvel Cinematic Universe. There has never been anything like it in cinema. The depths of characters, humor, heart, action--these movies transcend their genres. But then why do they keep ruining their movies with lousy third acts? The MCU has a bad habit of spoiling small, personal climaxes with large-scale CGI confusion. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings was a family drama that ends with two blurry dragons bashing into each other.
Black Widow was a family drama that ended with a big, loud explosion. It's like every movie is trying to be bigger than the last one, which is desensitizing audiences to the spectacle. In this video, we talk about why Marvel Studios keeps doing this, and how we think it could be better.
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#Marvel #MCU #Endings
Shang-Chi is very good, it has outstanding action, interesting characters, and a solid story. But then I got to the big battle in the end, and suddenly the big CGI demon-dragon showed up, completely ruining what was shaping up to be a fantastic and emotional culmination. And then it hit me, this is sort of a problem, isn’t it? And not just with Shang-Chi. This is an issue that plagues so many MCU movies.
The big battle, in the end, has always been a hit and miss. At times it’s the perfect climax, a great mixture of style and substance. But there are way too many MCU movies that end with an overblown, loud and messy cgi third act. It is as if there’s some mandatory requirement for the third act to be this bombastic main event, a spectacle for the sake of being big. Many times, these climaxes completely ignore the characters' arcs or the emotional culmination of their stories.
It’s a strange habit, one that has become the MCU’s biggest Achilles' heel. OIt’s a problem with most of Marvel’s 2021 movies, and even their shows. And it’s so baffling that it keeps happening, because the MCU always improves and gets better on so many other aspects, but the third act problems keep coming up, time and time again, hindering some of the best movies in the franchise.
To make it clear, my issue here isn’t with big battles and spectacle. There’s nothing wrong with spectacle, it’s only natural that superhero movies will have a lot of spectacle and action, especially in the third act. Some of the best superhero movies end with a big battle. The problem here is the execution of these big battles, and their connection between the hero’s story and the movie. The perception has become that bigger means better.
Another issue is how mandatory these big climaxes have become, as if a superhero movie isn’t complete without a big climactic main event.
But every story needs its own distinctive culmination, and that’s where the issue lies, too many of the MCU’s movies tend to ignore that, giving us big climaxes regardless of what the story needs.
This is why I chose to use Shang-Chi as an example. Not because it’s a bad movie, because it’s not. But it does illustrate this problem very well.
Shang-Chi is a story about a family conflict. The fractured relationship between Shang, Xu Xialing and Wenwu creates an emotional family drama, and that’s a recipe for a great story.
The movie masterfully crafts the complicated relationship between Shang and his father, revealing their past through flashbacks, and this builds a powerful conflict, leading to an emotional culmination.
At the end of act 2, Shang decides that in order to stop his father, he must kill him. This is a crucial moment in Shang’s arc, it’s a strong conflict leading to the final battle - will Shang kill his father or find another way?
When Shang faces his father, it’s visceral and intimate, as both father and son are trading blows while trading blame for Ying Li. It’s done really well.
And the fight itself is fantastic, the choreography and the martial arts are spectacular, and I love the clever usage of the rings.
So up until that point, the fight is emotional and powerful … and then the big giant demon-dragon shows up, ruining what was shaping up to be an incredible climax.
The fight between Shang and Wenwu is everything we needed, an epic climactic duel between two incredible martial artists. An emotional father and son conflict. This is a movie about martial arts, and this final battle was meant to parallel the beautiful fight between Wenwu and Ying Li at the start of the movie.
This is basically the same as Luke clashing with Vader in Return of the Jedi. And could you imagine if that duel would have ended with the emperor turning into a giant monster? No, it would have been horrible. - Krátké a kreslené filmy
The weird thing with Shang Chi is that Wenwu kept hearing the voice of his wife, which means the Soul Eater was an intelligent being capable of planning and manipulation, but then it just turned out to be a kaiju. I think it would have been more interesting if the Soul Eater was some kind of malevolent spirit that could possess people and use trickery and scheme for domination.
I have a feeling that the dragon was not the dweller. I think it was one of its largest creatures but you’re right that a kaiju shouldn’t play mind games lol.
🎯🎯
@@mrcsycunningham I think omething similar happened in Dragon Wars between Imoogis.
I kinda see the Dweller in Darkness as like an anglerfish. It attracts prey, and then just feeds on them mindlessly
Man fuck that why did they kill wenwu guy was a great character and loved how the actor potrayed it :(
Small counter point in Shang Chi's case. The moment when Wenwu is proud of his son and realizes he is right and he opens his palms and let's go of the rings as the dweller in darkness devours him is a small emotional beat and destroyed me. Your point still stands but I loved that moment
Closed fist vs Open palm (their fighting styles) which a lot of martial arts are famous for in movie. Wen Wu Vs his Wife. Let Li Vs Jet Li (The One) ect. It's like ☯️
Agreed 🌟
Civil War changed this up by having the big CGI fight before the end and having the ending be about the characters instead. - This is also just a blockbuster issue in general and not really an MCU problem. Wonder Woman has the exact same problem as this with it maybe being the most infamous example of how a big CGI ending ruins a movie. The recent Batman movie did this too, obviously it was much better handled, but I still think the big fight at the end with random thugs, and the flood etc... wasn't as interesting as Batman chasing Catwoman chasing Falcone.
True they didnt have too do the flood in the first movie
I actually felt the flood was great. It became less about him winning, because technically, he already lost. But the flood became the set piece for his growth.
Gotham is a character in the movie and the final epilogue shows that, how just as Gotham is flooded, and tired of all these conflict, so are the people.
@@pian-0g445 It works on some aspects and doesn’t work on others. You’re both correct in a sense. It was too wide scale for the first movie’s ending, but it also was crucial to helping Batman focus on making Gotham better instead of venting his trauma through violence.
Regardless, The MCU is the reason why it's so popular now. They popularized it.
This is a symptom of a larger problem in modern writing: the "let the bad guy get one step away from victory before suddenly losing" cliché. Think about it. When was the last time you saw a movie or read a story where they did the equivalent of "Wenwu gets to the seal but Shang manages to stop him _before_ he can break it and let the Big Bad out"? They always take the bad guy right up to the very edge of total victory before the hero manages to abruptly defeat him right out of nowhere, purely for the sake of cheap drama. And it's getting really old.
You know whos Whip and Fedora made that stick in modern film making….
This was why Infinity War hit so hard imo
Yeah, and stopping the bomb on “1” is so passé.
Did you not see infinity wars?
That's one movie
I was a bit disappointed that they killed Wen-Wu off like that. Tony Leung is such a good actor. I loved his work in movies like Hard Boiled.
Yeah at this point its their formula, if they hired big name actor as a main villain there is a huge chance that they would not survive for the next films most of the time.
agreed! What if the final battle, Shang wins and his father has to run away and he's pissed because Shang destroyed his chance in reuniting with his wife so he continues to be a threat in the future. Now that would be cool.
Im sure WenWu will be back, even if it’s a prequel or flashback
Tony Leung performance made the entire movie for me. He had an emptiness in his heart and throughout his performance you felt it more and more. And when he died it was like damn he finally was at piece for a second. And then he was gone.
I haven’t seen Hard Boiled, but you can see how good an actor he is. I agree with your comment on how they killed him off. I wish they hadn’t.
This articulates a problem that is real, but has usually been explained as a vague "Marvel movies suck" rant
It's usually a problem with superhero movies, and DC has many other problems to focus on
No it doesn't. Not all Marvel movies even follow the 3 act story structure, especially Shang-Chi. This video tries to simplify the story to complain about CGI and in the process overlooks the real climax of the movie.
It’s an issue that goes far beyond the MCU. And dates to films before the MCU existed, in a lot of ways.
@@iamwowed The CGI was bad, yes, but the movie did have a third act problem. The movie had three acts, atleast according to me. First act : Regular life of Shang-chi., goes sideways; Interesting fight scenes (My favourite act of the movie). Second act : The gang gets captured. I started losing interest as the movie seemed to have come to a halt. Thrid act : Dragon Ball Z. Fun, yes, but after watching the well done grounded action sequences in the first act, it just feels meh. My opinion of course.
@@iamwowed you obviously have ZERO clue what you are talking about! I am a Marvel expert and I’ve watched every movie ever MADE!!!!!!!
Someone told me they didn’t like Vision vs vision in the finale of Wandavision but considering it’s Vision I thought the philosophical debate was way more in character. You couldn’t really get that from any other character which makes it way more unique
I've been saying for years that the end of most Marvel movies shows a different hero or a different villain than the rest of the film. Captain Marvel was the best example. Superb cop buddy movie then all of a sudden we have an overpowered hero that can destroy all the enemies with no consequences whatsoever. It's as if the writing team got bored and they all wanted to go to the pub.
As you've shown Shang Chi is another excellent example. Battle against the evil family hierarchy then all of a sudden a big monster appears and everyone teams up to fight it.
That sounds like a 7-year old telling a story in class and suddenly realises he doesn't have an Ending yet
totally agree
Shang Chi is going to be part of the *New Avengers.**In the comics Shang Chi was the best fighter of all the Avengers.**He trained Spider Man in martial arts and they both become the deadly duo.* He also beat Captain America, Black Widow, Hawk Eye, Iron Fist, and all the other combat arts heroes in hand to hand combat. Only other Marvel hero who can probably take on Shang Chi would had been the *Punisher.* They killed off Wenwu to spread the Shang Chi story arch so that he can be involved with the multiverse. In the comics; Dr. Strange battled the Dweller in Darkness for the sake of the reality they lived in. This would mean that in MCU movies; Shang Chi is going to be helping Dr. Strange battle Cthulhu very soon since the multiverse had been unleashed through America Chavez.
Totally agree! Loki actually nailed this. The series didn't end with a massive flight. It was just a struggle between Loki and Sylvie, and ends with Sylvie stabbing The One Who Remains. The implications and tone you could feel from just that scene was way better than any massive battle we've seen. I was almost the same feeling as the end of Infinity War but without the chaos.
All that is true but you’re omitting the fact that the movie hasn’t had its climax yet. It’s not over. The way Loki ended would be the equivalent of them fighting in Shang Chi, he releases the dweller in darkness and it cuts with him flying out. We don’t see the consequences of their actions. Loki hasn’t had its 3rd act yet.
The climax in Loki is also a simple choice of whether to kill Kang or not. Their individual choices also show what they each have/have not learned throughout the show. You can bet episode 1 Loki would have stabbed Kang without a moment's notice.
@@WinterSo1dier that’s why I compared it to Infinity War. Act 3 or the climax isn’t the end… the point is you can have the Big Bang Ending without a massive fight.
@@qoirks gotcha. Thank you for clarifying. I misunderstood
Yep. One of the reasons I believe Loki is the best MCU project ever. But just my opinion.
I think this is a "problem" that is because of their own success. They put togehter a 10+ year saga with the Infinity storyline and now every time they introduce a new character they have to or at least they feel like they have to make them feel worthy to be an Avenger right away.
For example Captain America had multiple movies to make him feel like he is a really big deal but now they want to (have to) make Shang-Chi be on the same level in just one movie or risk being critizcised by the masses that they can't create new convicing superheroes.
tbf the Avengers are no longer. Wong was interested in the magic of the rings but he didn't recruit Shang into the Avengers.
@@davesargent7304 Yeah that's true but eventually another team up is going to happen and everyone has the avengers movies in mind when thinking about MCU and the new faces it is just natural when it was such a success
Shang journey and accomplishment was a big one. He save the world maybe the universe if Dragon could travel through space but either way very big. However Captain America did the same in his first movie by stopping Hydra world conquer mission. The difference is his mission was know through the world for everyone to see. Shang was done in serect so the public doesn't know about it and the impact isn't as big. Plus after Captain America unfrozen in the present he continue to publicly save the world. Avengers 1, CA: TWS, Age of Ultron, Civil War etc. So the world sees his actions and therefore we feel it more too. Same for the rest OG Avengers members. All the new characters except Spider-Man are kind of not known. Look how those kids reacted to Scott asking to take their pictures with him. They were like umm who are you. What an Antman? Most people don't even recognize Sam Wilson until the end of the F&WS show. The problem is if the people in the universe don't really care how can we?
@@theinsurance2450 Your point is mostly valid until the "why should we care" bc we care or i do at least otherwise i wouldn't write comments on a screencrush video.
I wasn't making my point about the storytelling rather than a counter point to what Ryan said in the video. It is not about how big the story is it is about how big the last battle is.
@@MegaGohl I think the last battle in Shang Chi was big. He fighting a big dragon while riding on other dragon. Plus the world is at stake. Sure it not as personal. But neither was a lot of movies. Not every villain has to have a personal connection to the main character.
I mostly agree with the Shang-Chi and Black Widow examples, and with the 3rd act problem in general, but not so much with Eternals in particular. The Eternals' final battles were quite amazing and didn't, imo, detract from the emotional weight of their betrayal by Ikaris and Sprite. The one thing that rubbed me the wrong way was how they got rid of Kro as, like you said, pretty much just an afterthought, especially after revealing him to be a much more complex character than he seemed at first, and I would have preferred if he had survived so he could be further developed in the future. As for Shang-Chi, I wouldn't say the whole Dweller in Darkness part ruined the rest, but I do think it was a bit too over the top. Besides the often distracting CGI and it being over used, I think the main problem with MCU's (and superhero movies in general) 3rd acts is that characterstoo often end up facing adversarial versions of themselves with the exact same powers and abilities or almost identical. That's why I like the final confrontation of Eternals so much (superspeed done right!), and of the first GotG (dance off!), Thor: Ragnarok (literally Ragnarok), and the Spider-Man movies.
Completely agree with what you said about Eternals.
There is one valid reason for the big battle at the end. Shang-Chi didn't have to kill his father. Anti-heroes are all the rage now. But Shang-Chi isn't one of them. Remember, he ran away when he couldn't kill the man who killed his own mother. It's not his nature. I would have preferred another way to resolve the conflict without the Dweller-in-Darkness. But I'm not sure that would've been possible without making changes to the characters which could have ruined the rest of the movie or been worse that the final battle.
Personally, I would have liked to have seen father and son fight the Dweller-in-Darkness together and Shang-Chi could end up with half the rings. Then in the immediate aftermath of the battle Xu Wenwu escapes with the other half of the rings. That could set up a chance to see Shang-Chi cross over in another Marvel movie with less power as he's learning to be a superhero. That would be similar to what happened with Scarlet Witch. She hadn't tapped into all of her power during Age of Ultron as she was becoming a hero. And then we could get another Shang-Chi movie with father and son fighting evenly and Shang-Chi eventually getting all of the rings. And that would signal a coming of age for Shang-Chi and he could become one of the more powerful heroes in the current phase.
I believe Shang-Chi did kill the guy when he was young. He lied earlier in the film that he didn’t but he admitted he did. Still an interesting point you’ve made.
@Bryab Sullivan, we need more like you in the industry
I have to say, I completely agree with this. I was left a bit baffled after seeing Shang-Chi, Eternals and WandaVision - and even disappointed with Black Widow. I was trying to wonder why, but this puts it perfectly into words: the third acts don't match the style and story of the film/series. The third act should serve the purpose of the story, not the other way around. Thank you for bringing this up!
I agree, I think a better ending would have been him having to kill his father vs letting the demon dragon do it. I think that would have added more depth to Shang Chi character knowing he was the one who had to kill his dad.
Then what happens to the plot point of the voice his father heard? We just pretend that didn't happen?
@@losgryfog no he realises he has to kill his father or else the demon comes out
@@losgryfog write the story better and change it just a bit to make that not an issue
My ideal Shang Chi ending:
.
Weeng Woo win in batttle against his son(he is 1000 years warlord with ton of battle expirience) but Shang Chi achive victory as his son - remind to father that his family need him. Open his eyes that while he grief on his dead wife, he live his children completly alone.
This would unlock a redemption path to Weng Woo character (and he fit to Wong\Hulck\ Cap Marvel company way more then his son)
.
About souleater - make him sentinal being and tease as a villian to the second movie(Weng Woo damage the gate, so...)
I had a Filmography teacher that referred to it as " unnecessary movement" or "Michael Bay-ing". He explained "You need to realize what the story needs. Say the good guy is beaten down on one knee struggling to get back up. The bad guy isn't going to run on a wall, do three flips and stop in front of the hero. It's not building or adding anything of substance. He would walk purposely. Build suspense. Let the scene breathe" no reason explosions come off more like a smokescreen to hide weaker parts in the scene or plot. Hence the term "Michael Bay-ing"
Michael Bay-ing. LOL. My friends and I nearly got thrown out of the theater back in the day watching Armageddon, as we were heckling each action sequence. The action scenes are such a mess you had no clue who is where, or live or dead. But no way Ben Affleck would even get a scratch!
As a lover of the Bad Boys movies, Micheal Bay-ing feels so accurate!
This is why I think NWH’s final battle works a lot better than most mcu final battle. Yes there was a big cgi fight at the end of that movie but it wasn’t the climax. The climax was a simple fight between goblin and Peter against a sunrise. It was more personal and character-driven rather than spectacle-driven.
indeed - it even addressed the problem in a way - they started out just attacking, and lost focus. they were showing what happens when the story is lost: the characters disappear and should start losing, too. And they did.
So PP-1/TH regroups them and focuses the 3 (and the rest) on 1 at a time. Now they have focus, and us in the audience do as well. Each villain's resolution is given the time it needs and is satisfying, rather than one massive 'X' defeats them all.
I think the completely generic, out of place CGI fantasy battles ruined both Black Panther and Shang Chi. Both had a chance to be unique experiences turned completely generic by their third acts (which lasted way too long too).
Yes specially black panther
I disagree with black panther, the final fight between the two characters is not without the emotional relationship, the fight ends with them respecting each other, and the film ends with tchalla having learnt from his enemy
The CGI of Black Panther vs Killmonger is shockingly bad. The rhinos too.
@@jacobmarshall9600 the general idea wasn't bad and the ending like you mentioned was good...but the execution felt just wrong..both thr characters seemed near weightless with their physical combat having no impact on the audience.. just think of the few fight scenes in civil war with black panther (even without the suit) in it.. the shear weight of each of the punches and kicks could be felt by the audience, because they had Chadwick boseman actually don a suit for the movie unlike some motion capture cloth for black panther
Unpopular opinion, but the big CGI battle at the end of Endgame is overkill too. There are some good moments, but overall, it was definitely "big for being big".
The climax in Shang Chi really stood out as so much of the film had awesome fight choreography using martial arts but the final fight was not that at all - bit like a video game where the final boss had never been in the game until the last moment.
I didn’t agree at first but you’re argumentation and evidence was so well put together. Great video & I completely agree and feel exactly what you’ve described. Loved this
I kinda have to disagree with the Eternals being used as an example. Yes, Kro definitely felt like an after thought, but other than that, I think the big epic climax not only fit thr tone of that movie, (since the whole film was building up to stopping the emergence), but I personally thought that the movie still kept the emotional stakes at the forefront of the movie, since most of the fight was focused on everyone vs Ikarus.
The whole fight was not only a fight between family members (who each had their own personal stakes for wanting to save earth), but a clash of ideologies, and the climax of the whole fight (Ikarus joining the unimind becasue his love for Cerci, the most human part about him was more important that following his duty as an Eternal, thus choosing independece want over the duty given to you by your creator) was the resolution to that ideology clash.
I agree with this; outside of Kro, everything in the climax felt like a culmination of the preceding events. The fight's square focus against Ikaris, and even Kingo's absence, contributed to the characters' emotional conflicts and arcs. It was also a chance to finally see everyone's superpowers on full display.
About Ikaris and the unimind, though, I don't think he chose to join it. I understood that the birth of a celestial naturally forces the Eternals present into a unimind; this is what saved them from the destruction of previous planets. (Even Sprite joined even though she had no motivation to do so. Also neither her nor Ikaris had Phastos' bracelets to connect them to the unimind otherwise.)
Agreed mostly because, I think feeling that the world being destroyed feels too soon since we already had the events of Endgame.
Yeah definitely one of the better third acts in an MCU movie. Actually worked and made sense.
Kro should have joined the Uni-Mind instead of being killed. He was completely justified in hating The Eternals and he was intelligent and fighting for his people against world-destroying robots designed by master manipulators. He should have teamed up to save HIS PLANET instead of indulging Thena's one-sided grudge for dramatic effect.
@@MrBazBake 100% agree with this. This is something that definitely would have improved the movie for the better. That and having Kingo actually be the one to convince him to join them, giving something of importance during the climax.
I never really made sense to me why he was the one to avoid fighting for earth since arguably, he was among the Eternals who had the most to lose from its destruction.
Well put. Especially in Black Widow and Shang Chi's case. Though I liked the 3rd act of Eternals. An epic showdown was fitting for them. Krone's was out of place, but it gave Thena's arc some closure. Maybe his return could've happened earlier. But Ikaris vs the other Eternals was my fav part. Especially Makkari's involvement.
I personally thought the relationship between Thena and Gilgamesh was the best part of the movie. In fact I think it could have carried a whole movie, and introduced the Eternals better. Originally I thought Angelina Jolie was a bit of stunt casting, but she turned out to be one of the more believable characters, with _serious_ flaws and at least some character arc. Most of the rest had little or none. I could care less about Ikaris, or Phastos, or Ajak or Makkari, and poor Gemma Chan did such a fantastic job with a side character (Minn-erva) in _Captain Marvel_ it was such a shame her character was so bland and uninteresting in this script. Kingo and Sprite were interesting but undeveloped, and Druig.... who? Another MCU movie killed by incompetent writing.
@@tarmaque While I agree that Then and Gilgamesh's relationship was the best chemistry, I would personally rather a movie of Mikkari kicking Ikaris' ass. She is my fav speeder in the MCU now. Also loved Druig's character. He went from being the character I though I was going to hate to the one I sympathized with the most. But, "Incompetent" is a little harsh. Especially when there were so many complexities to the characters. Like Kingo calling Phastos a coward and then being too cowardly to pick a side in the 3rd act. Or the fact that the Celestials created robots to avoid evolution only to be outdone by the Eternals mentally evolving. These narratives would not be in the wheelhouse of an incompetent writer.
Eternal is a bad movie all around
I said this when I first watched Shang Chi.
Remove the CGI dragons and keep the final fight between Wenwu and Shang-Chi,Similar to Classic Martial arts Films that always ended in a 1v1 in a beautiful arena.
The emotional weight wouldve stayed in between the rivalry between Father and Son as it had the entire movie.
With Black Panther they should've had all of Wakanda honor the Challenge between Tchalla and Killmonger and see them settle thier dispute in a 1v1 in front of all of Wakanda.
The PreVis issue would perfectly explain the artistic differences between Marvel and Edgar Wright that made him part from Ant Man.
Although I agree on the most part, I still feel the Shang Chi finale was awesome. I get goosebumps every time he does the moves his mother taught him with that music in the background to defeat the dweller in darkness. It also puts a well fitting end to Wen Wu's arc (even though I'm not exactly fond of what they did by killing Tony Leung off)
Facts I loved the finale I even rewatched it after this and it still holds up. It gave me a anime fight vibe. Imo the best MCU Final act since endgame.
Hell no it was not good
The Guardians 2 finale comes to mind. Practically a parody of the industry's problem lol
Yeah, and I have to wonder if that's what Gunn was going for, but it didn't go hard enough on being clear parody that it just felt busy, loud, and forced (like much of the film).
I'll say this much, much of that issue does get soften when the personal element comes into play, between Quill giving up his potentially god-like power for good, Gamora and Nebula reconciling and of course, the death of Yondu and even a big funeral number for him to bookend the film rather than bookending with the success of stopping the big bad.
Corridor Crew took a look at Shang Chi recently and they revealed why the final battle had so many issues. I'd recommend watching it. The TLDR is the lighting during filming was bad which led to the CG artists having to excessively "fix" colors, hide or add shadows, etc.
The quality of the CG wasn't the issue being addressed in this video.
@@Revz8bit Of course, the video was about how big dumb CG battles at the end of marvel movies is a problem. However, he also talks about how the CG, especially in Shang Chi, doesn't look very good. My comment was to point people to an explanation of why that particular scene doesn't look very good.
The issue wasnt the cgi, but the utterly predictable cgi spectacle at the end instead of some dope ass kung fu personal fight.
Thank you for the detailed explanation of reminding people that a graphic novel's disconnect will always be a problem with live-action performances due to the belief that the action displayed should always be larger than live depictions.
I think that's the problem with the MCU becoming too popular: people start believing that this movies are much more than what they really are.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Marvel fan however I don't believe that none of these movies are really deep, they're just cheap, fun flicks to watch.
If the MCU has the potential to be something more it doesn't mean that it NEEDS to be something more, at the end of the day I believe that you get what you pay for, a quick fun for a quick buck.
Agreed. I like MCU movies but I wouldn't care too much about deep meaning of the movies. It supposed to be fun entertainment and it's damn good at it. The biggest problem they have is how to entertain adults, teenagers, and children. The big CGI fights is definitely more attracting to children than emotional close to a story. As an adult I can say I would enjoy if Shang Chi ends without dragon CGI fight, but I wouldn't be sure my 10 year old self will understand or enjoying fully emotional ending. I think people who want more for MCU often forget that at the end of the day, MCU priority is to also hook up children to be their loyal customers forward, while being as much as cost efficient as they can. Many suggestions thrown online often make it more costly to make (by deviating already made storyline connection to other movies, which could mean they also need to change many other movie CGI that already in production) and/or make it not engaging to children.
You are one step away from realising the bigger problem, people want success, money. When Marvel movies go, people want to use the formula.
The movies I like don't exist anymore because everyone gives their damn quick buck to Marvel/Disney.
The market speaks for itself, and the market doesn't touch me at all anymore. Do you know how sad that is? I used to look forward to movies some years ago, but now it's the same "Quick fun, see you in three months" over and over and over again.
@@BygoneT I think there are still many truly great films being made by smaller Indy folks that fit into the style of older films. You may not be able to go see them on the big screen anymore, but older types of films still exist.
I also agree. None of these comicbook movies can hold a candle to other films that are about emotional characterizations, or even dedicated martial arts films when it comes to action choreography. What they do better than almost anyone else is the big spectacle. You take that away and you really just have subpar dramadies.
@@rustybrooks8916 I'm sure there are but is that going to sustain their livelihood? How can I possibly get to know a great movie if the director is from Mexico and I have no clue as to how I should find his stuff? I know they're out there. Some 4 years ago I was a judge for a film making contest, so I know they exist.
They're simply Impossibly hard to find.
Black Widow was by far the worst example of this IMO
I really wanted more of drakoff, we kept heearing reference to him for years just to kill him off so fast. I didn’t mind the red room but my biggest problem with it is they didn’t reference it more in the movie. How long has it been floating in the sky with shield or tony not detecting it, what country is it working with that provides it air space to float there. I feel task master could have been subtracted out the film because she wasn’t really needed. Could have been fine if his daughter just died and didn’t survive I mean we thought black widow killed her anyway from the first avenger film with Loki.
There is a ton of stuff here to unpack. And I just wanted to say you did a tremendous job with summarizing a lot of what I have felt with these movies. Honestly, I think Marvel is in a place now where they went big with a lot of the 20+ movies and now have to continue living up that. It's going to be hard to step back, Loki & Hawkeye might have been one of the best in recent memories in the tv side of things, not sure about movie side, maybe Spider-Man No Way Home (with Sony) or Black Panther to some degree. I really like the Erik Killmonger parts. Ant-Man's final boss wasn't big/epic, since they were so tiny, but I liked that one as well. OG Iron-Man with Obadiah as Iron Monger was good, but again very dark night fight.
I realized I was completely bored of these “cgi fist fights with a god” finales after seeing the original Wonder Woman. It’s not just a Marvel problem.
And constant, universe ending stakes are a problem in a lot of media as well. I’ve become numb to it and tune it out. I call it “epicness fatigue”. Everything is battling to be the most epic thing ever and it’s exhausting.
Man, you're 100% spot on wit the BP scenes.
The waterfall fight for the crown was MAGNIFICENT and the stakes felt higher then, as opposed to the end for some reason.
Can you imagine how perfect Shang Chi would have been if the final act wasn’t this big cg fight but just an emotional 1 v 1 between Wenwu and Shang
Why would they fight? Why would they even be there if not for the dragon?
@@losgryfog there would still be the gate, but then they would fight outside it and there is no dweller on screen or dragon
Long time viewer first time poster... I appreciate your take on Marvels over use of CGI. I personally don't like the huge reliance on CGI in action movies that seems so prevalent these days. I totally agree that it takes away from the focus of the film. I believe it "cheapens" the scenes. IMO, this reliance makes many scenes look fake and unrealistic. That Killmonger vs T'chala waterfall fight scene showed how a balanced approach to CGI can elevate a scene. Hopefully more Directors/Corporations will wise up!
I watch this channel now for quite a while, but this is by far the best yet! You explained what i could never come close to articulate! Thank You!
Easily one of my fave Screencrush vids in recent months!! Well done.
The funny thing is, when I remember this movie I completely forgot about the dragon. Although, I definitely remember the battle between him and his father at the end.
I agree with this very much!! Also, I feel like the "villains" or anti heroes are way underdeveloped and then just killed.. If you think about it, I remember a lot of what happened in my favorite shows of any kind growing up including super hero shows was that there was a constant antihero or 2 that kept showing up. I think if they developed the antiheroes a little more and gave more backstory and insight as to why they do what they do and how they do it, like kilmonger would have been a great antihero to do this with.... Because he was relatable and it was easy to see why he did the things he did, so it just to me would have been better for him to have not gotten killed, but become some kind of asset with struggles and conflict, idk.. kinda like what they are doing with Loki.. but then there's villains like whiplash that went nowhere, or even Justin hammer, or red skull, I would love to know wtf happened between cap America 1st avenger and vormir... Or zemo, or Dr Zola, I wanna see more!
Great stuff! But I'm not sure the problem is just pre-viz. From your video, it's pretty clear that they did pre-viz for the bus scene in Shang Chi as well as for the final battle. But the bus scene was way better, mostly because (as we can see from the behind the scenes piece on Disney Plus) it was still largely practical, while the dragon stuff was almost all green screen.
This was genuinely an amazing video, always thought this but never known how to put it into words
Really interesting deep dive here, and I think it explains so much about how I felt some of the endings of movies I was really enjoying fell flat. Some of the ones you mention like Black Panther and Ultron definitely had me feeling like something was missing, but I felt that Civil War suffered in its third act as well. The choreography of the triple fight seemed more like a stringently choreographed dance and I came away from that scene in particular feeling like I'd been taken out of the moment.
Definitely agree that Dr Strange set a very high bar for inventive finale against an unfathomable terror. I don't think the solution could have been anything else, it just fits so perfectly with the themes and ideas of the movie, of finding another way to a solution. (Also Wandavision gave us the Vision of Theseus moment and the rune reveal so personally I very much enjoyed it, haha.)
NO, I disagree with Wandavision. It needed that climactic battle for Vision to be, well, "dead" and Wanda to start her "Darkhold" adventures. I think the battle was a necessity. If you think otherwise, I'm interested in what would have been your version of it. Also, for Doctor Strange, I need the third act to be a action mania with of course and at the end: "No more mutants"
i kind of hope they dont bring up the no more mutants thing
this is cause so far i've liked wanda's character growth and i feel like we are all viewing the dr strange trailer in the wrong way because if wanda really does supervillain stuff then it will show that she learnt nothing from the events of wandavision
@@noobmaster69- well she didn't learn anything. she was literally reading the darkhold to do it all over again lol
@@ramonverissimo7831 yeah your actually right
but most reviews say that there will be 2 different versions of wanda otherwise idk maybe your right
@@noobmaster69- but at the end of Wandavision we ALREADY see her using and being seduced by the Darkhold to find her kids
@@ramonverissimo7831 yeah you are right i forgot abt that
I think recent batman and joker movies will put mcu at their right place. These movies were so much of substance and emotions. Not a big cgi villian.
This is why the ending of Doctor Strange is my favourite, The ending felt so creative and we really felt and saw the character arc of Stephen and how much he learned by the end of the movie
Big battles can be great every once and awhile. That's why I thought Vision vs Vision was such a perfect fight, and I'm amazed they did it.
The dragon fight would have fit much better in a sequel! Now how are they going to raise stakes? We don't even want to raise stakes.
If it's planned to be a trilogy, they could go the mass effect rout and do a darker more personal chapter in the second movie.
6:20 They stole that from Dragonball Z
@@williampearson6299 bc DBZ created storytelling fr believe me
@@gustavopereira4924 No, the running on the dragon part. This movie had so many moments reminiscent of the anime
Thank you ryan for your effort and important insights!!! I could never do this
I think this video was very very good. Like this is something that had caught my eye but I hadn’t been able to verbalize it. Congratulations for this fantastic analysis of what is going on.
Even though that even killmonger was a bit over the top with his goals, black panther had a perfect balance and thats why its a great story.
What you're leaving out is that for some directors that's why they DO work with Marvel. Taika Waititi explained in an interview that he was really nervous about the big spectacle pieces and then he focused on his strengths, that Marvel hadn't hired him because of that, they hired him for his vision, his comedic stylings, his strengths in storytelling and so he focused on that and let people whose expertise was the big spectacle fights take care of that and Ragnarok is a very cohesive movie and a favourite among many Marvel fans. :) Really enjoy your videos Ryan, thanks for all your work (and Doug's too)!
So, there is a silver lining to the situation.
Lol Ragnarok is a piece of crap
You are so right my friend. I totally agree with you. A big example that makes you point even more is the fight between white vision and the other vision in the Wandavision show. the way they stop fighting and end the fight with a " intellectual fight " was exactly what THAT fight needed for the story
Thanks so much for this. I've been having some less than great thoughts about some MCU films after phase Endgame but could never put my finger on why. You did it expertly.
8:55: "[Black Widow] needed a personal and intimate climax, where the family could reconcile and work together as a team."
Brandon Sanderson had a very interesting idea there: he said that narratively, the father really should have been the one to defeat Taskmaster. It keeps coming up that he brags about beating Captain America in a fight, and everyone chides him and says he's full of crap. Well, there at the end we set up a fight with someone who can copy Captain America's moves perfectly. What a scary thing for everyone to face!
Then he steps in. "Don't worry. I can beat Captain America in a fight." This gives him a chance to finally prove himself. It would have provided a very satisfactory conclusion to his arc.
So of course the story didn't do that.
i was thinking that while watching that it shouldve been the father to fight taskmaster, not sure if he needed to win maybe he could just die and provide a distraction for black widow to use that antidote spray. but either way he could have gave his life as an apology to his daughters/to protect them, whatever or he could have proven himself as a proper superhero
@@apm136 I think in this case him dying by mutual victory would’ve been more satisfying but I still think that Black Widow needed a final moment with Task Master because a big portion of the movie was also Natasha reconciling with the guilt of her past
Nope. That red guy was way too old and lacked any true abilities to reach Captain America's level. He ain't worth it.
In my opinion the fight choreography was so good it stole the show (in a good way), so I’m inclined to agree that it’s a shame that the climax was cgi. I didn’t roll my eyes when the dragon fights began, but there was a distinct feeling of “of course, this is marvel after all.”
You nailed it again! I love your thought process.
To me, Wandavision is the most glaring example of this issue. It was such a refreshing, straight forward, mystery kind of story that had Wanda and her family at the center. I think the heart in Wandavision was what made it such an invigorating show to come back to every week. Then, when it came time for the finale, it became all about the action and witches/synthezoids/androids flying around and battling. Honestly, that finale felt like such a betrayal to me as an audience member who fell in love with this show that was so different from anything else the MCU had put forward. I STILL get bummed out when I think about how that masterpiece ended.
If you didn’t like the ending, then it wasn’t a masterpiece. A masterpiece is perfect from beginning to end, none of marvel shows has done that for me yet. Just shows with 1 to 3 good episodes, I’m waiting on them to give me a Disney plus show masterpiece. Moonknight has 2 more episodes before I can judge it fully.
Agreed. I was waiting for some huge revelation or reveal rather than a fight. I wanted reality altering implications because that's what the whole story was about
@Azrael’s Shadow lmao I never complained about no action:) thanks for the assumption tho!
Honestly exactly what I've been saying to my friends. I did think Black Widow was the worst offender. But I'm definitely seeing falcon and winter soldier as the WORST perpetuator of this. Literally just removed all depth from the villains just so there could be a big fight.
Honestly it's not like they had all that much depth in the first place. A bunch of ungrateful, greedy people wanted to continue to occupy property that was temporarily abandoned through bizarre _force majeure_ circumstances even after its rightful owners came back. Because this makes no sense legally or morally, they were told they couldn't do that and needed to go home. Instead, they throw a temper tantrum like the spoiled children they are, except that they have access to super serum, so their tantrum crosses the line into terrorism.
The fact that the series presented this insanity as something the audience was supposed to sympathize with starkly shows just how poorly the writers understand both morality and human psychology. It's a big part of why the show was so awful.
@@masonwheeler6536 I highly disagree there, but that is the depth in itself, the moral complexity of it, I do wish they leaned into it more and less into the Power Broker stuff.
Like for example: you call them greedy for wanting to keep staying where they were living after people came back, and on one mind of thought that’s fair but in another mind of thought you have to take in mind what was happening in world at that time. The people who weren’t snapped had no idea if the people who were would return. 5 years had passed, the world had started to move forward and develop new ways of thinking with its missing population, and in some ways it was better, more collaboration between different people and nations, but then the people do come back and now everyone wants to go back to the way “it was”, and undo the progress that was made. I don’t think it’s hard to understand the frustration in that
@@charlestaylorco8713 As Keynes is apocryphally said to have stated, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do _you_ do?"
All that "progress that was made" made a lot of sense in the context of a world that was literally half empty, and a lot less in a world that was back to normal. It brings to mind C. S. Lewis:
"We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. ... If you are on the wrong road progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road, and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man. There is nothing progressive about being pig-headed and refusing to admit a mistake."
@@masonwheeler6536 but then you have to put that message of “…where you want to be” in the context or perspective related to the person or persons. Ex: the senators’ goal was just make the world as it used to be almost exactly (as you said with the population redoubling), but with little regard to how it would immediately disrupt those who were still in need and had been working with those same people in power after the snap. Karli’s goal was to keep the world as it was with nations working together to help others, open borders for all in need, etc., so I guess depending on your worldview is who’s side you see as right
But the in lying problem is that both the senators and Karli were extremists in their views. This is what makes Sam the hero as he understood both political sentiments. Was this portrayed the best in the end, no, I can agree there, but the message behind it is that there was a middle ground in which you could respect and help those who would be displaced and who were a part of keeping the world together when half the population were labeled deceased and trying to make the world seem more “functional” as it was before the snap
Even though I enjoyed SC when i saw it in the theater, i had a feeling that there was something wrong/missing. I think you've solved the mystery: SC was too ambitious (too greedy with the toy tie-ins?) in adding the final battle in Ta-Lo, instead of doing more to develop wenwu's story. Generally, the 3rd act's purpose is to show how the character earns the title hero. so, it has to be a battle against some great undisputeable evil. Fighting and killing one's father wouldn't make the cut for Marvel heroes, so the writers had to find a 3rd party that's even worse than Wenwu.
Tony Leung was woefully under-utilized and i still have aching questions about the Wenwu character: Why did he cease conquering and choose to control things through an underground criminal organization? Would have loved to see an explanation along the lines that 1000 years ago he had a run in with some badass(es)--Hogun (of Asgard), Hercules, a Black Panther, the Ancient One/Khamertaj--which destroyed his empire, and, realizing that he was not invincible, decided it best to rule an underground criminal empire from the shadows (this would also play into his desire for seeking additional mystical power from places like Ta-Lo before attempting another world conquest). The exact powers of the 10 rings are not explained, but that might be intentional for this film, and explained later.
Great discussion about an issue with a lot of movies! I hope someone in charge gets to see this! Keep up the good work.
Fantastic analysis and spot on!!!
This formula really worked for Infinity War and Endgame, that's about it. Everything else was forced.
Also a problem is killing the villains. Arrest them or let them get away. Killmonger, Crossbones, Yellow Jacket, Ultron, Obadiah Stane, Whiplash, Dark Elf guy, Ronan, etc.
Well crafted Ryan! This video hits the nail
One of your best videos. I actually learned quite a lot as well.
Yes thank you! Shang-Chi was really mediocre and disappointing in the end.
The whole demon dragon nonsense was totally obsolete
Also, Deathdealer was ridiculously underused and basically obsolete too
I agree with everything but death dealer. Just a minor character, nothing special.
Honestly youre spot on. Ive had issues with marvels third act for a while now, especially Wandavision and kinda with FaTWS. They do get it right sometimes but they also really ruin an otherwise great movie sometimes.
1,000% agree! Thanks for articulating something I had not fully acknowledged. For several recent MCU and Star Wars films, I have only rewatch until the third act including Shang Chi. Great insight thanks.
Wow you make so many valid points. I've been wondering why I like some cgi in mcu a lot and barely notice it but why those big chips battles often keep me lost and confused, it's so hard to focus on single characters and action. I really hope they get over it, too, especially in the disney+ shows because they are dealing with much more personal stories
You've put into words what's been bugging me about the third act in things lately. They feel out of place and I couldn't verbalize why!
I've watched every marvel movie at least three times each, and always wondered what made some good and why I hated others. Amazing insight ryan 👏
You and I agree pretty much 100% here Ryan except you presented it far more entertainingly. Chef's kiss.
Just commenting to help the algorithm! This video was amazing! Great insight
A lot of the big ending fights in the recent MCU projects remind me of the scene in Iron Man 2 when Rhodie finally goes to fire the missile that Justin Hammer installed in his armor. lol
I mean think about it ….These movies never were expected to be cinematic dramatic masterpieces the fact that they were or that some have been was real icing on the cake and gave you CZcamsrs the opportunity to be “real drama critics“ so when it doesn’t happen you’re back to just reviewing a superhero movie and you got used to being more than that because of the actions of Marvel. sometimes you guys have to get off your sofa!
i feel they are super hero movies so generally if the third act has a fantastic CGI battle i’m totally down for it. The fact is that marvel really stepped up expectations for these movies by going above and beyond the super hero genre that’s why we are so impressed but in the end i really don’t feel that just because one movie stepped up the “cinema”/ dramatic story telling doesn’t mean they all need to be cinematically ground breaking. so yeah nah i don’t expect The emotional connection and character building from end game and infinity war in every movie i think it’s unfair to do so. just go have fun seeing our hero’s realized in live action the same way we did in the first place.
Well done sir! Great essay.
totally agreed; often times a thought provoking conversation or small scale battle could have resolved everything perfectly. Like the conversation between Wanda and Agatha during the big battle could have happened but not in a such climatic battle
Credit to Civil War for starting the third act with the massive battle (but one I admit still comes with a perplexing impetus) and doing something more intimate, but still intense and consequential, at the end.
Yep. Totally agree. Love the MCU but it's getting pretty repetitive now. This is why I fucking love the finales or Netflix Daredevil and Punisher. DDS3 season 3 is just three people beating the shit out of each other in a hotel room. In Punisher S1 its just straight up Frank vs Billy brutality. Smaller but more personal, and much more high stakes and realistic.
My favourite third act from a Marvel movie is actually Thor Ragnarok. Every time I watch it, I just get a massive grin on my face, as Thor comes down with all the lightning and the music, then completely owns a bunch of Hela’s soldiers. I also thought how they ended up solving the Hela problem was actually really clever, as it brought together the Sutur and the Hela plotline, whilst also wrapping up Thor’s emotional journey as he came to be ruler of Asgard; the people, not the place.
Love how this was articulated. Thanks for addressing this.
Shang-chi was 10 out of 10 before the demon dragon enters the movie.
I agree with you, but you gotta stop saying "cgi mess" or anything like that. You are making it sound like the CGI is the problem. CGI/VFX is an artform on itself and is a f*cking hard thing to do that takes YEARS to learn. There were/are people working their ass of for those shots.
i think you raise some great points, especially regarding the lack of personal depth in the final battles. i think the final battle really should be what the entire movie builds up to and it feels like we don't get much setup to it in the first portion of the movie, but we do get a lot of buildup to the family conflict so that should have been the biggest theme in the movie but was eclipsed by the dweller-in-darkness segment. one point to note is that in the video you repeatedly refer to shang-chi as shang, but that's actually just half of his name since his surname is xu and not chi (his full name is xu shang-chi or shang-chi xu in the western arrangement). imagine it like you were referring to tony stark as "to" instead of tony lol
This is the best!!!! Video you have put out! everything is so true! PS I love this channel!
i feel like a loud third act works best when its in team-up movies. everywhere else it'll feel a little forced. the third act in eternals feels the most forced of the recent movies honestly
Dr Strange had a nearly perfect final battle. It was the perfect example who he had become because of the story.
Great video!!
The first Guardians ending remains one of the best. Star Lord trolling his way to victory and everyone joining hands to trust and support him even if it means self sacrifice.
Marvel's films are based on the comics which most of characters have special abilities / superpowers and they fought to each. Basically, it's the action movie with superpowers.
To show such a unique ability and making it prominent to be remembered, the ending of the film must show the character's power and action ability.
When I watch the Marvel's movies, I expect the action sequences, not the dramas.
Exactly, these movies 🎥 are shot on million dollar cameras 🎥 10k and your ass watching on a 1080p tv 📺 talking about something don’t look right…. Yeah your TV 📺
How are you going to remember the action sequence if the drama causing them in the first place isn't compelling enough?
MORAL OF THE STORY
Let the directors do the wonders, the studio must give them their liberty.
Like the Russo brothers. Love their work
Brilliant analysis as always, Doug. 😉
Brilliant analysis. Thanks Ryan
It's not just the MCU that has this problem. Most super hero based movies have this problem. Wonder Woman is another great example. The villain of the movie had been defeated, but the Warner Bros. insisted that a Big CGI Monster Ares show up so Wonder Woman could have another battle...which really wasn't necessary at all.
You finally called it out. I was feeling indifferent with the final cgi fight too, spaced out. In shangchi
Superhero movies: a GenX and up's dream. But it'll be a sad day when THE MESSAGE ruins it for everyone
This rings so true after seeing the finale for Moon Knight. I was so dissatisfied and confused by the final battle
Black Widow was a great movie right up until the climax, which was so bad that people forget that the first half was actually pretty enjoyable.
Yeah, I rewatched Black Widow the other day and halfway through the movie I was wondering why I didn't like the film. Then the third act happened and I remembered why. It was still better than I remembered but the end is so over the top!
It didn’t ruin the movie for me I still enjoy the movie Shang Chi and I still love Black Panther the first two acts But I feel like the CGI battle at the end was not done well especially with black panther I think MCU does this because they feel like fans will get upset if they don’t have a huge spectacle battle especially after avengers endgame everybody expects big battle at the end of every movie/TV shows I agree with Ryan not every movie Need that I still love the MCU but he does make some good points in this video
wow, thank you for so excellently articulating a problem with the mcu that i've always noticed but couldn't put into words! you always nail it, ryan:)
Thank you for addressing this subject.