Why Is It So Hard To Write An Ending? - Gordy Hoffman
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- čas přidán 25. 11. 2018
- In this Film Courage video interview, screenwriter and BlueCat Screenplay Competition Founder/Judge Gordy Hoffman shares why it's so hard to write a screenplay's ending. He also notes how he can easily spot a film in which the writer had a clear idea of a movie's ending or not.
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The beginnings usually come to me naturally, but it's s always the endings that are the toughest because I want to find a great way to conclude the story that I'm writing for the audience. If it's meant to be ambiguous, even that ending in my eyes has to feel earned and not forced.
How about writing an awesome ending first and working backwards to the beginning!Strong ending strong beginning!
Very true, but easier than done. Cause the damn story changes on you as you go. Before you know it, your original ending is no longer as applicable. Grrrr
Then you'll have a weak beginning! XD
Usually a good ending is good only because of how it relates to the rest of the story. That's why starting by the end would usually not work.
tm4tare true it’s like a goal post........
Sure. Go ahead and do that.
I like that he said respect that it's hard. Embrace that writing the ending is difficult.
"...and I'm sick of this script."
Qe've all been there. Suddenly you wonder what the hell made you think this was a good idea to begin with.
@@scottslotterbeck3796 yes!
The earlier you come up with the ending the better IMO. Even if you change the ending way down the line, come up with something, it'll give your narrative drive.
Once again, I am amazed at the solid content of this channel and the relatively low subscriber count (with the amount of quality content... would expect subscribers closer to the half million mark) keep up the good work! For the record... I definitely struggle with the endings, good ones at least. It's easy to close a story, its another thing to close a story with all the boxes ticked.
This is kind of a niche channel.
5 years later and the channel has 700k+ subscribers. Slow and steady...
Endings. My movie ideas revolve around a central problem. But then just as in real life it's more difficult to see a solution than it is to see a problem -- and in the case of screenwriting a unique, satisfying and original solution. I just wanna pull my hair out.
I struggle with beginnings more, I usually have a strong idea of the middle and my end is somewhat known. But then I struggle finding where to start, and how much time I should spend on the setup.
This could be a math problem. Writers who write good beginnings and weak endings have scripts read; writers who write bad beginnings and strong endings don't (at least not past the first 10 pages).
YES!!! YES!!! My thought exactly. Might be why the movies we see made don't have the greatest of endings as Gordy believes.
And when the movie is made and hits the big screen, the opposite then happens -- audiences aren't that attentive in the beginning, they're eating their popcorn, busy suspending their disbelief etc. etc. and engage more and more as the movie goes on, leading to them caring more about the 2nd half of ACT II and the 3rd ACT.
"Word Dancer" on CZcams has said they'll open your screenplay at any page ( a warning that every page should be as engaging as your open). So maybe it's not always that way.
I personally don't struggle with endings much, but I agree a lot of people do. Even with songs... I mean, loop and fade out? That's straight up sad.
Thinking the same thing...
Help me to buildy ending ❤..
Mail me dassdaniel9@gmail.com
Beginnings are so easy. End kills you!
Seems to me for certain genres like Thriller, Mystery, Detective for instance you need to have the ending figured out first in order to go backwards and lay down the clues in the best way possible.
I’m new to writing and focused on writing a novel - not a screenplay. But Film Courage offers great information and insight into Story regardless of the medium.
I’m going to write a romantic thriller. I’ve been studying the craft of writing for several months. I’m struck by just how much of a craft it is! It could take a lifetime to learn all the knowledge accumulated on Story but I’m doing this for myself so I’ll settle for enough knowledge to make something I’m proud of.
I’m focused on story structure right now. When I get ready to start my project I will have my ending completely figured out and I will work backwards. The ending will exemplify my theme. It will result in the completion of my romantic couple’s character arcs.
The end will have a major plot twist and it will make sense and follow from the clues and foreshadowing leading up to it. The end will resolve the B and C subplots. Hopefully I can craft something that is entertaining and satisfyingly unexpected - but not 100% unforeseeable. This is just a small sampling of the “checklist” I’m compiling as I build my process.
I know I’m supposed to be a plotter. There’s no question. An outline will be my only hope to complete a story in this lifetime, but I actually look forward to it.
I anticipate having the ability to make sure everything works structurally and that I’m building in good fast Thriller pacing, suspense, cause and effect between the scenes and that my protagonist is pursuing that main story goal in Act 2.
I can fix many problems glimpsed in my outline before I even start my draft; and yet I can pivot at anytime once I start drafting by going back to outline, making revisions as needed to incorporate the new inspired content and playing it out to make sure everything still tracks.
Honestly, endings seem to be easy to create just by nailing down the theme of your story or even just the feeling you want your audience to come away with in the end. Genre conventions should also help to figure out the big picture of the type of ending that audiences expect from your story.
I’ve actually got my ending 100% envisioned. Just have to work backwards to a beginning that connects with it but it should be in the neighborhood of a 180 degree difference in my characters from when the story starts to when it finishes.
I know there are differences in the storytelling mediums as this gentleman alludes to here; but I would encourage beginning writers of any kind not to bypass Film Courage just because it’s mainly about making movies / the visual medium.
There’s tons of great material here on this channel and I’ve taken plenty of notes!
I find endings hard because you have to bring in all crucial parts of the tale at once. At the start and middle you can write one aspect at a time.
I find both beginning and endings to be tough. I deal with it by starting and ending the story where I think it should and then over time change and evolve it.
The original opening of my current script while still there, is no longer the opening. I added a new opening and a third, to hook the audience, and clarify the fantastical nature of the movie’s internal reality.
My original ending contradicted the world view of the film, so I added another which remained contradictory, then a third which was a cop out of the style "it was a dream all along", then a fourth which inadvertently became Inception-like “maybe dream, maybe not”. Then finally a fifth which firmly establishes the “not a dream” principle and provides what I hope is a proper resolution. The endings essentially became the third act.
I love the content of this channel! Kudos!
I've been to Gordy's lectures before. Really great teacher! His Niece is in my short film Love's Proof :)
Great and probably unilateral sticky-point!
AND for the record... um... "It depends(?)"
Sometimes, I've got a flood of good ideas and situations for an ending... but a foggy, vague, and "open" sort of setup leading to the relevant conclusion(s)... so they're just best "collected" with reasonable notes for "fitting to backstory" such as it is...
In the RPG-situation, though... Beginnings can be Hell. The cliche that writes itself is, "You all met in the bar/tavern/saloon..." or somehow crash everyone "incoming" to the game into some form of Inn-Tavern or similar social and food related or public facility...
AND... yes, the "Bath-house" has been done, but tends to lead to sub-plot chicanery more than invitation to "real" or "qualified" and game-worthy adventure.
SO we undermine the cliche... and some how manage to get the whole clattering, banging, clunky mess of an operation on the road... Adventures happen... and then what?
Endings aren't (in and of themselves) all that hard to come by. There are moments, and if you're paying attention as you plod through whatever messy and dishevelled plot you've constructed, you can reach at least one "reasonably profound" point of closure...
Good Clean Endings, however... Those are not so simple. It's not a matter of trudging through Characters' lives and drama until the primary theme becomes a non-issue. Just waiting for a "reasonably profound moment of closure" tends to get clunky, slow, and ends messy... Loose ends can't always be accounted for... AND eventually, either you rewrite it that hundred millionth time before blowing your brains across a wall... OR you just close the figurative book and "go with what you've got"... hoping quietly that someone on set might have "just the idea" to help polish the turd.
BUT... there's another side to this sticky little coin, too. INTENT... Not all GREAT endings were necessarily Good or Clean... not in so many words or syllables. Comedy/Advnetures, for instance, might end on cliff-hangers, leaving intentional holes in the plot for the audience to dubiously and arbitrarily decide for themselves.
One of my favorite movies of all time, "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels" absolutely WINS with the "open ending"... or finish on a cliffhanger.
*spoilers for those who live under rocks*
It's all about two antique shotguns, worth a FORTUNE, but the people who physically possess them DON'T know about it... Up until the very end, when a briefcase FULL of cash is picked up by a hitman, and the shotguns end up in the hands of a group of "wise-guy kids" growing into adulthood. The kids decide to get rid of the guns (britain, so laws) and then the Hitman shows up with the briefcase, explains that he's not greedy, just needed some funds to make do without his employer... AND drops the case off with the few guys at the bar... Of course, they find no cash, but a useful magazine featuring the guns in question and the fact they're friggin' expensive! SO everyone's grabbing cellphones to call the one guy who's about to throw the guns off a bridge, as he drops them (bundled) onto the ridge just outside the railing... AND he's got his phone in his teeth while he leans and reaches for the gun-bundle as his phone starts ringing... {end in freeze frame}
*Back to discussion*
It's brilliant because the whole central group hasn't been lucky through the whole movie, so you're stuck with the hope he's got the good sense to answer the phone without losing the guns... Even wet is better than gone forever. BUT... It's just not how their luck has played out through the WHOLE movie. SO... irony, sarcasm... It's worth a watch (again if you've already seen it)...
BUT to the point, the ending is just a little messy. The same bunch (give or take) were involved in another movie, "Snatch"... basically a British Irony laced diamond heist and hustle... BUT at the end of that one, there's a very slight recap to help "clean up" the plot twists and it has a GOOD CLEAN finish. Everything is neatly trussed, but if you're a big laugher... You'll probably need to watch through at least twice to "get everything".
SO... I would posit, depending on the genre, and your (writer) intentions for the story at hand, just an ending or even a "good" (lowercase note) ending isn't so much a problem. A GOOD and CLEAN ending may be just a bit beyond reach, but revisiting the intentions behind theme, tropes, and plot of choice... You may well need to adjust the desire for a CLEAN or GOOD (in the sense of satisfying or profound) ending might not be the way you even really NEED or WANT to do it.
In GM'ing, there simply are moments... A certain scene, or a level of emotional upheaval returning to a settled state... It can be anything, but you just pay attention, and there's a "breaking point" to story. With practice and attention, you can catch those moments, call them conclusions, and either dispense with "loose ends" as they are, or tap them for vital details and plot material for "some place and time else"... as necessary and applicable.
I bring this up, because if we (writer/creator types) are doing our job with diligence, then the art imitates life... or parallels it enough that we SHOULD be able to follow out the plots to some degree of fruition, and find our "moment"... That unique spot where closure is practically assured and satisfying (or as close as it gets) and we can then weave our personal splash of polish to it...
Some still need practice... AND as pointed out in the movie, even from the "professionals of high acclaim" I've noticed some stories just drone on and on past point after point where it could SO much better be "ended clean"... SO don't sweat it too much. They still get their nominations, moneys, recognition... It's not going to be perfect after all. Maybe it never really is. ;o)
He didn't really answer the question, he just agreed it was hard.
Oh, man, I'm glad it's not just me. I have around 20 stories that are so exciting to me, but that are so elusive after the 2nd act, that I'd actually love for someone to rob me of my IP if they would make the movie, so I can enjoy it and see how it all turns out.
I was wondering whether you'd met with any foreign creative professionals who've made it in the industry and talked about their path to achieving success in Hollywood. That would be an interesting video to watch.
Also, I know Gordy's Philip Seymour Hoffman's brother but I get a serious Jeff Bridges vibe from him too lol.
I like the k.i.s.s rule for writing endings. Starting as simple as possible and slowly building on it as you write seems like a good idea.
That's odd. I have the beginning and ending when I start my scripts, usually the whole story. I get stuck on creating enough obstacles to meet the "industry standards".
Kishimoto choosing Kaguya as the final boss is the worst ending I can think about.
Also most of Murakami books I have read make me angry because of their ending
Got dangit Boomhaur, I mean Gordy, you nailed it again!
Endings, definitely. When you have an idea, after all, it's never, oh, this is such a cool ending! It's man, this would make a great film, because this and this happens. But...you must have SOME idea on how it ends, when you outline the sucker.
I have found my beginnings as more weak, but that doesn’t go for just screenwriting. Essays, research papers, anything in writing, my beginnings are not the greatest. I usually visualize the ending first than the beginning too though...
When you finish, rewrite a killer opening line and you're away.
You can write things the camera can't shoot as a screenwriter, but the onus of getting thoughts, feelings, etc. onto the screen lie with the actors, camera and director. Gone Girl's screenplay has a few excellent examples of just this.
yea but you would to show in some way shape or form to get thru the screen !? I’ll read it thx
I wrote a ending for a specific story based on fear and overcoming that fear. They way it happened, I'm not sure if it made sense or if could have wrote it in a more different way...
endings, totally. you build a feeling, an aura of character release throughout the story...then you've forced yourself into this corner to culminate all of it in a single message.
If a novelist is explaining everything, they're doing it wrong.
Tell that to Dostoevsky.
That was funny- I'll just write a television show..
Hoffman seems like a smart guy. I've been very inspired by many of the things he said about eschewing rules and format, and what's wrong with the industry. He is right on the money on that stuff.
But I'm a little disheartened. It's patently obvious that he does not understand the first thing about what it takes to write a novel, though he seems to assume that he does, according to what he has said here. Storytelling in a novel is not just writing whatever you want and giving every detail about everything. That will never work, the same way that would never work in a screenplay even if you had the room and the time to do that in.
The smart move would be for him to speak for himself, and not for novelists.
Actually, if we ignore the fact that the novelist's job also incorporates the director's job, the producer's job, the actor's job, even the cinematographer's job, and the fact that they actually have to write the narrative that screenplay writers never have to write, novel writing is very much like screenwriting. The goals are actually very much the same, and how you reach the goals are actually very much the same. The only real difference, other than those things mentioned above, is the time constraint.
But maybe it takes six years of walking in a novelist's shoes to understand that. Apparently, 20 years of writing screenplays has not taught him the first thing about this.
Sadly, he hasn't got a single clue about it. He honestly could not be more incorrect. The smartest thing for him to do when talking about the process of writing a novel is to hold his tongue until he understands it. That day has not yet come.
I struggle most with the endings. Not because I don't know what's going to happen, but because it's at the end and that means I would have to finish it, lol
Haha!
Writing a novel, you can just write everything you want. are you serious. Boy, bye.
I write novels too, and my eyebrows shot up when he said that ... and then thought a teensy bit more and realised he wasn't being literal, but meant "write anything you want, when compared to screenplays." Which is true. I don't think he literally means "every single last iota and speck of info."
Story of my life! 🤣
Is this man actually trying to suggest at 5:40 mins that writing a novel is easier than a screenplay?!?! I'm assuming I misheard or he misspoke
You find it difficult to write an ending only because you failed to set it up from the beginning.
Why is it SO easy to point at someone else's completed movie and say what would have been a far better ending, when writing endings to stories I've invented is so very difficult?
perspective.
especially when you have no skin or solid idea in the project from the creator standpoint, it’s like saying I would have done this whilst watching someone competing, sometimes it’s true sometimes it’s not.
Endings are tougher for me.
The end.
Everybody did a great job not saying JJ Abrams. Maybe people struggle because, apparently endings aren't important? Seems like Hollywood will give you infinite responsibility while having no ability to craft a satisfying ending whatsoever.
Baby writers... love that
Dantes Peak. "Ahhh! Lava! We're gonna melt to death!" "Not if we bolt into this convenient cave." Ta da! ...... Major disappointment.
I learned absolutely nothing from this. He just said over and over that endings are difficult. Yeah, I know ... How about some tips!
LOL at novel writing being easier and you can write what you want. As he says, he's never written one so wild to making such an incorrect claim.
Novel writing is easy because you can "write thoughts?" What ignorance.
Sandeep Sengupta guess he said so in the comparison with screenwriting, because it’s the main difficulty all the time: “don’t describe it, show it!”. Writing a screenplay would be much more easier if author could pause movie in the cinema and explain what he thought, what character thinks at the moment and what subtext is)
Doesn’t mean novel writing is easy by itself
Philip Kuropyatnikov I think both has its easy and tough elements. Example in cinema you can show something but the same thing in novel takes careful words.
Easy to write a novel; hard to write a good one.
@@ClintLoweTube Exactly. I too did not get why they had to bring a comparison between novels and films to show which was better.
Voice over
The Shape of Water was terrible. Pan's Labyrinth is one of my Top5 OAT, but I hated TSoW. The acting was god-awful and it took all authenticity away from it all.