Harmony | Lost Metal Shardcast
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- In this episode, we discuss, well, maybe a single word about Harmony. Big Lost Metal spoilers on this one!
Our cast today is Eric (Chaos), Ian (Weiry), Evgeni (Argent), and Rosemary (Kaymyth)!
We're back to weekly podcasts for a bit, at least through December.
Thumbnail is by Connor Chamberlain: coppermind.net/wiki/File:Harm...
0:00:00 Intro
0:02:41 Discord
0:11:30 Splitting God Metals
0:15:17 Harmony's autonomy
0:23:01 Shards working towards the same goal?
0:24:46 Harmony Splitting
0:27:40 Era 3 Theories
0:42:51Kandra
0:54:34 Ghostbloods vs Harmony's agents
01:01:14 Trell blinding Harmony
01:11:03 Harmony's Sword
01:24:14 Harmony into Discord
01:34:02 Hybrid Lights
01:41:08 Ars Arcanum
01:45:44 Why he will be loved as Discord
01:49:54 Final Thoughts
02:01:30Who's That Cosmere Character
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#brandonsanderson #mistborn #cosmere #thelostmetal #harmony #sazed #discord - Zábava
Michael Kramer better be prepared to say “Yo, I’m discord now “
I'm wondering if Sazed is already Discord and actually lied about being blinded by Autonomy, but wanted to use the threat of the Set and Autonomy to push Scadrial into greater technological advances and even push Marasi to run for governor.
This is a good theory
I’m kind of on this train. Like “Oh no. I can’t do anything so things are not progressing. Ignore that nukes were just invented and lerasium and atium found again.” If Sazed had fixed the problem early, the Set would not have invented nukes and made important hemalurgy discoveries.
Reading the book, I thought it was weird how often Harmony reiterated that he could only see something once Wax did. After reading the ending, I immediately reinterpreted those comments as obvious lies.
This... this is good...
I think Harmony and Discord is the same thing. The difference is only how the equilibrium between the shards is maintained. Harmony is when he is basically impotent. Every small act of preservation is balanced with the small act of ruin and vice-versa. Consider what happens if there is more leeway on the size of acts of preservation and ruin that can happen independently until the balance needs to be restored. Instead of one coherent being unable to act, you have two
This is the discord. Sazed will move himself into Discord by acting. It already happened in Lost Metal, Sazed is acting too much and this will lead to backlash. Saving Elendel and providing support for them was definitely a big act on preservations end, and it needs to be balanced.
Argent, at 35:58 you reminded me of this amazing quote:
"Two blind men waited at the end of an era, contemplating beauty. They sat atop the world's highest cliff, overlooking the land and seeing nothing."
Ian: "I could see Sazed abdicating his position."
I couldn't. When Sazed finally grasped the meaning of the Terris Prophecies, that the Hero of Ages was to be their new god, he realized that the "Ages" part referred to a hero who endured for eternity.
I like the idea that living on a scadriel where discord is present is a lot like being in the same town as a powerful Ta’veren in wheel of time. A whole bunch of strange coincidences that can either be good or bad- things that *could* have happened normally, but when hundreds of little weird things happen it becomes apparent that shenanigans are afoot.
My pet theory is that discord is gonna be like a "Ruin in order to preserve" or "Preserve in order to ruin" type of situation. Meaning he preserves Scadrial and improves their technologies and lets them loose on the Cosmere to destroy other worlds.
I feel like sazed would really appreciate a lecture or discuss with Navani regarding the rhythms and such.
As an A Song of Ice and Fire fan, I find it very funny when you guys talk about how long it is gonna take before the next books in each series. We'll probably get Stormlight 5 and at least 1 Mistborn Era 3 book before The Winds of Winter comes out 😂😭
That's being optimistic lol
More like the rest of Stormlight
Theory: Sazed is going to make an Avatar for Discord in an attempt to stabalize himself and he'll make Kelsier that Avatar.
😮
I had the same thought, only maybe a Sliver of Ruin alone and then Kelsier is that Avatar.
Yeah I have strong feeling Kelsier is going to end up connected to Ruin some how.
@@aenea22980 Kelsier is already a Sliver of preservation because he held the shard for a bit. All he needs is the ruin part and there you have it.
woah that’s super interesting
2 and a half hours of you guys talking about Harmony?!? Much yes, such thanks!
Someone really needs to compliment Sazed's appearance. He must be really proud of the "two wings extending into infinity" thing that you see when you don't focus.
I think Sazed did act, back when he remade the world. He saw what he did to the Southern Scadrians with his Ruin half (part of why he could do it and save his friends) so he asked Kelsier if maybe he could go and help them. Or something. And afterwards he is afraid of acting, because when he saved his people he almost destroyed another and that is what is paralyzing him, the fear to act because of what he did during that time. Since I believe it was said that moving the planet and all he did made the south almost inhospitable for them for how much colder it was.
So i think Brandon is done with Ruin vs Preservation. We have 3 fantastic books telling that story already. I could see a future were two dueling shards fight over scadrial, but its going to be different intent. Honestly i think if you were to Shatter Sazed right now, you would end up with the shards of Harmony and Discord.
So like each one has some of both the original? That could be cool.
“Yo I’m discord now” had me cracking up. Great discussion, another great video. Thanks for taking the time to make it!
Harmony can’t act *locally* to the people and land he is god of. He is Harmony to his charges. But when attacked, Ruining your enemy is the act of Preserving your people and lands. He is Discord to enemies from outside of his world. That’s what sazed is learning. IMO.
That is why his people will love him for being discord. And for being harmony. Both shards working together with the same intent; but different target domains.
Sazed is going to be strong in war.
really hoping to see the idea that Harmony has always been Discord discussed in this one
That's what this episode is about, I just can't put Discord in the title because of spoilers. -Eric
That doesn't mean Discord being imminent is not a spoiler for TLM, and a pretty big one at that. Bad logic. -Eric
That's like saying "It's not a spoiler in Oathbringer that Odium personally shows up many times, he hadn't appeared before!" Genuinely baffling. I'm pretty cavalier about spoilers but it's very clear this one is one. -Eric
This is a silly argument, and I will not respond again. Something that is referred to in a book that appears in a later book can be a spoiler. At the time of OB that was Odium. I feel you're not arguing in good faith, and am not interested in this Devil's Advocate argument or arguing for the sake of it. -Eric
@@wingracer1614 no but discord showed up and impacted the plot much more then whimsy, what do you think harmony’s shadow was and why do you think sazed wanted a “sword” so badly
Harmony is the shard you want in Peace time Discord is the Wartime version of Sazed when he must create discord for his enemies he must ruin them and preserve his allies
"The definitions of harmony and discord in the context of music specifically"
Discord is Melkor. We've figured it out!
I think the fandom needs to be careful in discussing the harmonium splitting. There were a couple of times (around the 12min mark) you all were talking about it as a matter/antimatter annihilation situation. It's more of nuclear fission, like argent said.
The way I'm thinking about it is you have harmonium, which is solidified ruin and preservation bound together. Since they are independent forms of investiture, they naturally resist being held together in this form, so in being bound there must be a lot of energy tied up there.The trellium breaks that binding, releasing that energy.
The energy released from nuclear fission does come from annihilation; the mass of the fissile products is very slightly less than the mass of the uranium input. (It only takes a tiny bit of mass, multiplied by C squared, to produce a heck of a lot of energy!) Matter/antimatter annihilation is another way to cause the same reaction.
@@masonwheeler6536 All releases of energy reduce the remaining mass. Matter/antimatter interactions are *not* the same thing as fission in any meaningful sense. If you set off 1000 tons of TNT, the same amount of mass is lost as when you detonate a 1 kiloton nuclear warhead, but the reaction involved is totally different.
@@carl11547 This is simply not correct. When you detonate TNT, the total mass remains the same; the release of energy comes from the reduction in chemical binding energy between the original reactants and the end product. In a nuclear reaction, the release of energy comes from the conversion of matter to energy, reducing the mass. The means by which you get there are very different from an antimatter reaction, but the mechanism by which energy is released (matter to energy conversion, AKA annihilation) is the same.
@@masonwheeler6536 Consider Einstein's famous (simplified) equation, e=mc^2. The energy released by the detonation is *equal to* a mass times the speed of light in a vacuum squared. It's a very common undergraduate level experiment to weigh reagents, react them (causing energy to be converted from chemical potential into heat and possibly light, which then leaves the system), and weigh products, which will 100% of the time weigh less. Please don't believe this former chemistry and physics teacher. Ask Brandon. If he is not available, ask any other physics or chemistry teacher (or chemist, or physicist).
@@carl11547 Now you're just making things up. I went through college and never saw such an experiment in any of my chemistry or physics classes. Why? Two reasons.
1) Because C squared is a very, very big scaling factor; if there were any difference at all it would not be detectable with undergrad-related lab equipment. To put things in perspective, the amount of mass annihilated in the Hiroshima bomb was estimated to be approximately 700 milligrams. Normal everyday combustion levels are multiple orders of magnitude smaller than this, so even if mass/energy conversion was involved (which it's not) you couldn't tell the difference.
2) Because this fake "experiment" you're making up flatly contradicts a very famous sequence of _real_ experiments by Lavosier where he showed that the mass of a closed system never changes during combustion, though the mass of the solid reagent can be either larger or smaller than the mass of the solid result, depending on the reagent, thus disproving the theory of phlogiston and demonstrating instead that combustion involves a reaction with some gas. (oxygen)
Thanks for the great content!
6:30 You can get a balance of two opposing factors by doing nothing relevant to them, or by doing a lot of both
8:00 Can't he create it or can't he want to do so?
23:30 make one village immortal, raze the next and kill everybody
50:00 MeLaan has been in Scadrial's astral even in TLM.
51:30 It looks to me like the trade caravans are breaking down. It seems unlikely that Harmony and the Ghostbloods have two different issues at the same time. Frankly, this looks like a wae is going on. Specific planets are cut off.
53:30 Kelsier can go into Scadrial's astral. And it would be very odd for the Ghostbloods not to have trading outposts where you need to switch to boats.You still need to cross the mists.
58:30 Kelsier got like 90% of Scadrial's population killed. He liberated the rest, but as far as omlettes are concerned he is an inefficient cook.
1:00:30 Kelsier has learned from his mistakes. He now learns all the facts before he acts.
1:04:00 Preservation had Futuresight he could share with Kelsier while Preservation and Ruin were invested in Scadrial.
1:07:00 Or the Haze was just no longer needed against a blind Harmony and Autonomy just reduced costs.
1:08:30 No, he made the strategic mistake of attacking at the expected point. He should have struck somewhere else. Sazed sucks as a tactcian.
1:15:30 But he gives him power. Waxillium feels stronger in the mists.
1:36:00 Wouldn't the mists react to the harmonized tones of Ruin and Preservation?
1:42:00 Rashek shut down technological progress. Harmony does not.
1:44:30 Kelsier has been developing a solution for that issues. He wants to export Ruin.
1:46:00 The Lost Metal and Sixth of the Dusk _are_ alien invasion stories. Technically all of Stormlight is.
Amateur musician here: musically speaking, harmony specifically refers to the vertical relationships between pitches and how they sound when played simultaneously (taking into account intervals and voicing, overtone series and timbre, physics of sound waves and how they bounce around and interact with each other, etc. It's a description of a phenomenon that can then organized into chords (usually triads + extensions) to create reproducible effects.
I feel like it's easy to mix up harmony with consonance and dissonance. Consonance refers to intervallic distances (like the Perfect Fifth) that feel resolved, or pleasant, or anything of that sort. Dissonance refers to the opposite, where the interval feels unstable, notes feeling like they need to move to a neighboring tone to properly be resolved (the tritone is the classic example, and "functional harmony" (a system that works best in a major scale and slowly breaks down the further you get away modally) relies on it to create a "dominant" sound, that screams out to be resolved to the tonic chord, or "home.")
Point is, harmony can be consonant or dissonant and still be harmony. "Discord" as a term...I mean, it "can" be used in music, but from what I can tell (forgive me if I'm wrong about this) it's not really anything official. I can't tell if it would mean dissonance or cacophony (which technically just refers to Really Really Dissonant, but has a lot more Oomph to it and sometimes refers to unintentionality, like a school band playing out of key).
Considering "Harmony" doesn't make sense as a shardic Intent to begin with, but more as a description of how the two shards are bound together (I feel like Brandon talked about this with Warlight at some point), I feel like the musical use of the words is appropriate to look at.
So if we replaced Harmony and Discord with the more descriptive Consonance and Dissonance (I don't know if Brandon's necessarily super well versed in music theory, so it's an easy mistake to make), then Harmony would be the "home" state that things naturally want to return to: stability. Discord would be the "homesick" state, where things stretch and stretch unbearably and long to return Home...but can't, yet, because tension and release are the fundamental principles of music.
Actually, that fits with Push and Pull, doesn't it?
So instead of Ruin and Preservation being the push and pull, Harmony and Discord are the push and pull, with R+P working together in both cases. Discord creates tension, Harmony creates resolution. Over and over and over. Sazed "does something" which has disastrous consequences, and then Sazed "does something" that brings things back to an equilibrium. When he's Discord, the subshards are less stable, when he's Harmony, they're more stable, and he has to swap between them in order to be effective without tearing himself apart. I dunno. Maybe a little like a dual-shard equivalent of Rayse's difficulty controlling Odium, only with the shards themselves?
On a semi-related note: Forgive me if I'm mistaken about this, here but I assume that possibly any two shards held by one vessel in the specific way Sazed has been handling things could also be called Harmony to some extent, right? And it's just because Ruin and Preservation are the only opposites that it's more appropriate here than elsewhere? We saw a bunch of that in Rhythm of War, after all.
Apologies if this was covered and I missed it, but I think looking into the Greek deity Eris could hold some clues.
Eris is the direct counterpart to Harmonia and is called "Discordia" in the Roman pantheon. There was even a real-life cult religion focused on Eris in the 50's that portrayed her as a benevolent chaos deity who influenced art and science, although the ancient version was more about chaos in war and between nations.
"Was?" Still is. I'm friends with a Discordian right now. :)
Honestly I find it odd how Sazed appears with one black and one white wing, instead of having 2 grey wings for example. I feel like he hasn't fully merged the shards as we might have initially thought.
Edit: I think this also ties into how inherently unstable/reactive harmonium seems to be.
Also.. statistically speaking.. Ruin’s dichotomy is a growth type shard like cultivation. Preservation is not an opposite to Ruin. Preservation is (no change) and ruin is (negative change). Sazed is technically therefore.. (slower ruin) if the line on a graph goes sideways.. downward pressure will cause preservation to eventually lose over time. This is what we saw in Era 1.. and it’s what we’re seeing in era 2.
Exactly. Ruin is active, preservation is passive. Its a handbrake to ruin, but it cant put the car in reverse. Someone needs to find a solution like storing atium, or infusing someone with Ruin investiture and having them go after the bad guys.
Can we talk about how far into the future someone saw to make a prophecy about Discord? That seems uncommon for shards
Man, I wish Rosemary had talked more! Her input was always great, I just wish it was more often lol. This one was very much Ian, Eric, and Evgeni going back and forth.
Yeah, I hopped on this one last-minute, and due to the craziness of schedules, at the time of recording I hadn't re-read the book yet since the beta. I was being extremely cautious with my input since I didn't know the full extent of the post-beta changes.
@@rosemarywilliams5183 Ahhhhhhhhhh yeah that makes sense. You're absolutely fine
There is always this though in the back of my head, Kelsier was the only cognitive shadow made by the shard most interested in preserve things. A being deeply connected with ruin remade with Preservation investiture, there is a big irony there, Leras did not deviated from his plan even if it killed him, so, I must assume that Kelsier becoming a CS was part of that plan, so, whatever was that plan, is still in motion and Sazed is tied to Kelsier until the very end.
Can't wait to dig deeper into this episode. My initial thought was that if a God is limited in action because they are afraid to imbalance the "scale" then perhaps the only way to act is to empower different avatars with with your opposing goals, have them fight it out, and then throw support behind the winner. It sounds not so different from Autonomy's approach and from what I gather Harmony did take in part of Autonomy's influence in his cosmic blinding. Perhaps he has some small piece of Autonomy influencing him or perhaps he saw Autonomy's ability to act and decided that he must change to survive against the other shards. One of the constant struggles of fighting authoritarianism is to not became an authoritarian yourself to win the fight. I'm reminded of a scene from a recent Episode of Andor where someone asks Luthen "What have you sacrificed?" to fight rhe Empire and part of his response is "I'm forced to use my enemies own methods to fight them". Perhaps we are seeing Harmony begin to make that choice.
The whole idea of pushing innovation via a cold war style conflict feels like something Discord would enjoy
Part of what makes music interesting to listen to is the interplay between harmonious and discordant notes... It makes the important notes sound way more satisfying by having discordant notes strategically placed
I know I will definitely love him for it, Do it, JUST DO IT!
Scary thought: Kel finding out about the Dawnshards and tracking one down to deal with Sazed/Harmony/Discord. We do know Kell's much more Cosmere Aware and there are still a few Dawnshards out there incomplete (Without someone to hold them or become them, I am aware of the strangeness of being a vessel/becoming Dawnshards)
I would love to see Kel going out and collecting Cosmere Artifacts and Magic. Especially with that one WOB about Kel having access to Bondsmithing magic. Especially how DANGEROUS Bondsmithing could be with what little we've seen in the books and the titles tied people with that one magic in general.
Something none of you mentioned: what if Harmony decides to create Splinters (without actually killing himself) the same way Odium, Harmony, and Cultivation have done? Dump some of his Ruin into a separate, intelligent being that he hopes he can still control, without having to partake of its fully ruinous nature? ( The other sapient Splinters we've seen are all the result of a Splintered Shard, one of Dominion, Devotion, and SPOILER for a Secret project
Virtuosity.)
He could also steal Preservation's strategy of making atium and creating a huge reserve, which Seers and Mistborn could burn whenever necessary to drastically weaken Ruin.
He absolutely needs to support the science of splitting of the metals, reabsorb all the lerasium and give all the atium away. But would he be able to act in this way? Maybe Kelsier or someone needs to find this trick out for themselves and do it independently.
Tuning in (pun intended) on the musical discussion. Discord can also be used to describe an intermediate chord that is dissonant. For example, one might have a harmonious chord followed by a discordant note/chord to build tension. This is often followed by moving to a new harmonious chord to resolve the tension. And that chord is rarely the same as the first harmonious chord. So another ending for sazed could be resolving to a third god name along the lines of Resolution.
Okay, I actually don't hate the idea of the force of two shards splitting Sazed or at least his personality. I can't help but feel like the splitting of a spren trapped in a gemstone from Rhythm of War was a bit of foreshadowing...
1:18:55 "I will call him Discord and love him for it" Ian sometime in the future
On a slightly more serious note, I like what you mentioned about stable and unstable equilibriums Eric. What clicked for me was that if Harmony perturbed too much in one direction, he might explode to an infinity (split into two shards). And if he perturbed too much in another direction, he would fall into the stable equilibrium of Discord. And because vessels have a lot of control in the beginning, Sazed was able to put himself directly on the unstable equilibrium point through his interpretation of Ruin and Preservation.
TLDR, open up demos and plug in (y = x^3 + x^2), Harmony occurs at (x=-2/3) and Discord occurs at (x=0).
Great episode! You all made some very interesting points! I do thinkk you misspelled the fourth clue in the second who's that cosmere character.
Hahaha! Finally watching this episode and I got Palona in three clues!
I think that as more people are aware of the cosmere, shadesmar expands, filling in the void that is getting more understood, the understanding of the true vastness of space.
Kinda a weird theory, but I wonder if harmony will become a very powerful shard for warfare. Ruin and preservation balanced by working towards the same intent, ruining and destroying to preserve something, or in other worlds war and conquest to protect scadrial. It would work well as a motivation to push the scadrians to other worlds and expand their reach
I pressed "pause", read the book, and then came back. As instructed.
I wonder if Sazed has more control over himself because he holds two shards than others who have held one. The reason for this is that the two shards are more in conflict with the other shard than the person who holds it. Just a weird thought. It just seems to me that Sazed has been able to keep his personality intact more so then most who have held a shard.
That makes sense! He can’t do as much, but he also isn’t losing himself. I guess it has also been less time for him than for the others, so that probably plays into it too.
He's millennia newer in the role than they were, though. Ati didn't become evil instantly when he took Ruin.
Talking about oscillation in the nature of Harmony and Discord: sounds like punctuated equilibrium.
A Feruchemical (Twin-)Mistborn would be downright terrifying and awesome
That's TLR. full feruchemist, lerasium allomancer. Full compounding.
I think, with my limited Brain..Discord is just a reclassification, like Saze is managing the two shards so poorly that he has shifted from Harmony to Discord… I don’t think it’s a separate thing, just a really bad execution of Harmony. The two sides clash as opposed to augmenting each other. I don’t know if it is anything more than just that or not…
I also agree with what has been said about discord having been a possibility all along. Like from a pessimist viewpoint combining preservation and ruin could make Discord. A clash of notes… from an optimist view you could name it harmony, a synergy of notes. So maybe in the old text they assumed the combo would just be discord, but saze was optimistic so he called it harmony… really just two names for the same thing
I complete agree with this, I don't think the nature or composition of the Shard (and I do mean that to be singular rather than plural) has not changed. Sazed right now is holding a rubix cube with two colors. That rubix cube cannot be held still, it has to constantly be shifting. For the most part, Sazed has managed to keep shifting the cube in a way that it comes back to a solved or mostly solved form. However, as of late, he is losing his ability to keep returning that cube to a solved form and its spending more and more of its time in an unsolved, chaotic state. But the cube itself has not changed, it's is Sazed's ability to returning it to a solved state. The difficulty is that the cube has always had the flaw of more black squares than white, which is probably part of why he's never been able to completely solve it.
Can’t quote it exactly but there was a recent WOB talking about if people could have mistaken the nature of an intent and misnamed them. Brandon mentioned how Odium believes he was misnamed and that the names are a very poor way to define really broad concepts. Harmony is the concept of ruin and preservation being in balance and Discord is the concept of them being out of balance with ruin being favored since it was always a little stronger
@@almostunliketea where exactly did the name harmony come from? Did saze just kinda assume it on the spot? Maybe his interpretation was just off on how the two shards would interact as one
Just going to throw in the phrase Linear Combination of Shards because my brain won't let it go.
Excellent. -Eric
Aluminum hat theory, mostly just me rambling. What if Sazed becoming insane Discord is good for Scadrial, but morally bad, and bad for the cosmere, and Kelsier has decide if he wants to do the right thing and deal with Sazed, or do the easy thing and let stuff be. It would also be interesting as Kel isn't exactly a traditionally moral person.
For how I read the lines in the books and the context of what Allik said. I think the current Scadrial's perp isn't really so handy to use. It may be its size, it's composition (like be made of the raw power of two not so nicely related Shards may turn it bad), or the location... could turn it into a nightmare to use.
It is usable we know that but it could be far worse of the Pit in its praticability and for sure not pratical for groups or frequent usage. This may also explain why the Set/Trell preferred to spawn a Perp of their own rather than using the one already present
Re: why there's still a tiny amount of lerasium left after the explosion.
It probably just didn't get a chance to run into any of the atium. Maybe the bit on the back side of the lerasium blob was shielded somewhat, so it was blown into powder and dispersed into the air before it got a chance to touch the atium. That's a super normal chemistry thing, most reactions don't go to absolute completion. Especially with solid reactants.
I mean everything said about Autonomy’s intent seems to fit Kelsier really well, I wonder if he’ll become Trell or Autonomy to stop discord
We recorded a Kelsier episode yesterday and this personally is my theory. -Eric
Oh awesome, can’t wait to see the episode then
Except Kelsier isn't the type to be ruled over by someone...especially a god.
Kelsier would be a great holder for Preservation potentially anyway. He is the Survivor. Preservation and survival can be looked at as synonyms. Similarly death and ruin have a close relationship. The WoB about Sazed giving something could refer to giving Atium to Marsh. At some point in the future I could see Discord giving Lerasium to Kels. Imaging the Discord a society of full Mistborns would cause.
His name will be discord but Ian shall love him for it
You know what it occurs to me there may be another reason that the ghostbloods are trying to get a Spren because kelsier doesn't have his mistborn powers he might be interested in forming a bond to get knight radiant powers or something equivalent.
Some years ago I've heard of Empedocles' theories: this philosopher saw the universe like a mix of different elements in a state of change (in a "nothing is destroyed, nothing is created, everything is transformed" way). This change follows two principles: Love (it unites the different elements) and Hatred/Discord (it divides elements).
In this system there is Change but also Preservation.
I can totally see Sazed using this kind of system: "a part of me will create/unite and another will destroy/separate". Discord will be not as bad as Ruin (it will be still influnced by the influence of Preservation, remember that Hemalurgy itself is not as bad as it was*) and Harmony will not be as useless as Preservation.
*the change in Hemalurgy mentioned in the Ars Arcanum really made me think.
Discord would be a good way to explore borderline personality disorder.
People seeing the shadow - besides shardic aspects, people also tend to see for example Odium and Preservation not being as substantive as they should be. One being kind of transparent when losing control (I think it was Taravangian's POV), and the other turning into mist over time (seen by Kelsier).
I wonder if the way for Harmony/Discord to balance itself is to empower 2 different avatars with different priorities that balance out.
I think I'm on team Ian, Harmony has a lot going on and I think the assumed 'ineptitude' everyone has in going in the back of their minds is fan cannon. What I was really hoping for this episode was a quote from the preview chapters (19) from Harmony to Wax. I was super interested in what he meant at the time
" Harmony smiled. A faint smile, from one too burdened to be eager about the emotion. He actually seemed to do it on purpose, with effort. “As you wish. It is a tool for you to use. I’ve lost games over and over against Autonomy, but I still have help I can send you. Some do not realize I was behind their mobilization. Yet I did not know the urgency of our task. I did not know their bomb might be ready. I am caught flat-footed. That was their goal, I think. So I must ask. Will you be my sword again, Waxillium?” "
I know there is tons to talk about with Harmony and Discord maybes...but still "Some do not realize I was behind their mobilization." First he's already sent the help and already manipulated whoever that might be. Of the people who help the main cast the only players I can think that means is the Ghost bloods, or someone off screen. Marsh maybe since he clearly showed up but why would Harmony mobilize him behind Marsh's back, seems like needless manipulation based on what we know of their relationship. Its not the Kandra. Could be Hoid I suppose but doesn't seem likely to me either. So, is Harmony manipulating the Ghost bloods? Thats some exciting implications to me.
Anyway I think Harmony has a lot more going on that the fannon wants to believe. Sure some of the other shards have tricks he's not savvy on yet but that doesn't mean he's a gullible child.
The other thing that 'bothered' me about this book is Kelsier seems to have way to little knowledge of the Set...that group is a major player on Scadrial with what must be hundreds if not thousands of agents at least somewhat in the know and Kelsier 'leader of the ghost bloods' who is supposedly actively trying to protect Scadrial from external forces.....and who knows that Autonomy is the driving force behind the Set....Kelsier has no idea how close they are to a bomb or the perpendicularity or the community......and then gives Harmony grief about him supposedly not knowing either (Okay that last part I have no problem believing)
Now there's an interesting take: Harmony specifically keeping Kelsier paranoid because it's so much easier to Kel to do stuff of his own accord when he's suspicious than it is to get him to do something by saying, "Hey, Kel, do this!"
Thank harmony
Discord sounds like multiple personality disorder...the power remains in harmony but with a dual vessel
Each Shard has many aspects. For example, Ruin also is, or encompasses, Change.
So, when Harmony fused the two Shards, he made something new. When they break apart again, if they ever do, they may not fall apart into the pieces of Ruin and Harmony, but may amalgamate parts of each. They are perfectly blended together and mutually recombined.
So, if Harmony loses control and periodically expresses mere aspects of his whole, there is little reason to expect them to be Ruin and Preservation. It is more likely, I think, that they will be partially of each. For example, one might be able to justify a claim that dynamic equilibrium or homeostasis display aspects of change (from Ruin) and stasis (from Preservation).
I think that expecting Sazed to ever demonstrate or split into Shards which perfectly correspond with Ruin and Preservation is unwise. It is possible, just not likely.
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However, I have to admit that splitting Harmonium into the two previously-seen metals is a counterpoint. There could be explanations of this. First, it might be that the new metals are not perfectly atium and lerasium as previously understood. They may be modifications on their themes. Second, there may have been other products of that reaction which either are Allomantically inert or just were never burned and accessed in a recognizable manner. Third, it could be that any permutation of aspects between these two Shards will yield two Shards or one bi-Shard and those aspects have to be conserved. Therefore, no matter what, two metals with the same metallic art effects must be produced, even if there no longer is a bijection between them and the Shards of Ruin and Preservation as previously understood.
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My point is that a lot of this talk focusing on only Ruin and Preservation as the two poles might be off-track. We can talk about aspects of each Shard, but I do not think that the original two baskets of aspects are obsolete and not the correct paradigm to be using.
To me, Harmony seems to mean, "I must stop Ruin from accomplishing its goals, so I will use preservation in a losing battle to counteract every single move it makes, leading to a stalemate" whereas Discord might be "I must allow Ruin to run wild and do its thing, but maybe I can turn it towards a goal which serves Scadriel for the better and I can then free up preservation to protect scadriel and move with decisive action."
Theoretically having the two shards have 2 unrelated goals IS discordant. They are not working together at all or in balance with each other. In that situation he is allowing Ruin to expend massive amounts of investiture perhaps by attacking ambition or Odium directly and splitting himself between the two shards, and with preservation on a completely unrelated and uncontested goal it can preserve its own investiture but still intervene in meaningful ways to protect the people of Scadriel.
How Sazed divides that power is up to debate, I do like the idea of him copying Ambition though and imbuing the extra power of Ruin into Kelsier and making him Discord; an avatar of Harmony.
Perhaps Sazed’s Intent of being Harmony rather than Discord is being eroded by the inherent Intents of two opposite shards? Since Harmony is really Sazed’s Intent which will gradually be moulded by the intents of Ruin and Preservation
This is all of my random ideas of discord Harmony knew through future sight that he will start falling apart I believe that the ruin part of Sazed is actually the part of him that wants to kill himself
My final thought is that Harmony knew that he would fall apart and he is not the Discord referred by in the epigraph Harmony has been preparing Kelsier to kill him and become the kind of person who could pick up the shards and he will be Discord and the people will love him
The way I see it is what would be a better wartime shard the one who has to swing back and forth between ruin and preservation. Ruin for the enemies and Preservation for your allies, and if you have more Ruin than preservation all the better to destroy those who stand against you.
The epigraph would make a lot more sense if it was "His name shall be Zoom, yet they shall love him for it." Implying the Scadrians are crazy for liking Zoom.
All of era 2 has been mentioning that The Basin is too comfortable holding back innovation.
Discord is probably Harmony over correcting to force the planet to innovate quickly enough to face the external threats.
I agree with the end of the video that Era 4 is probably finding a Nash Equilibrium between Preservation and Ruin.
I was so proud of myself for getting Palona.
I wonder if sazed was affected by being invested by autonomy in a long lasting way, like I could see that causing issues balancing the two shards
A harmony is the playing of two ostensibly-distinct sequences of notes so that they construct something pleasing. A discord is similar, except for the result being displeasing. Much of the difference between these two is not even in which noted are played in any given sequence, but the timing of their play. This is rather like constructive and destructive interferences, which in Stormlight also involve the meshing of seemingly-disparate rhythms. Moreover, based on relative lags caused by acoustics and position, a harmony in one place may be interpreted as a discord in another. So, much as a wave can be its own opposite, harmony can transform into discord or vice-versa merely by some shifts.
It would also be super cool, to have Discord's Shield instead of Harmony's Sword. Harmony needed help to act Discord Sazed can ask for help to mitigate the effects of his actions.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what Eric is saying, but a Lagrange point is not inherently unstable. Rather, it’s the opposite. The gravitational forces from the two celestial bodies are in equilibrium, so it is actually inherently stable. This is why they are ideal locations for satellites as they do not require much effort for the satellites to maintain their position relative to Earth. This is actually mentioned a few times in The Three-Body Problem by Cixin Liu.
Slightly inaccurate. There are different sorts of equilibria (this is a dynamical systems thing), and that means there are multiple types of Lagrange points: solarsystem.nasa.gov/faq/88/what-are-lagrange-points/
"Of the five Lagrange points, three are unstable and two are stable. The unstable Lagrange points - labeled L1, L2, and L3 - lie along the line connecting the two large masses. The stable Lagrange points - labeled L4 and L5 - form the apex of two equilateral triangles that have the large masses at their vertices. L4 leads the orbit of earth and L5 follows."
L2 is preferred for the James Webb Space Telescope for a variety of reasons as stated in the article. I believe additionally, even if distance to L4 and L5 was practical to deal with, stuff collects there. It's a sink. Bad for space telescopes because crap will collide with it.
The fact that JWST needs an engine to maintain its orbit is because L2 is not stable. Certainly, it's not hard to get it there, but eventually JWST will run out of fuel and its mission will end. It will go off course and leave L2. If it was at a stable equilibria, that would not be a problem. -Eric
L4 and L5 are stable. The others are inherently unstable. Think of L4 and L5 as a ball sitting at the bottom of a bowl. Anything that perturbs it just moves it up the sides and gravity pulls it right back down to the bottom. L1-L3 are like a ball balanced on top of a hill. The slightest nudge and gravity pulls it down, away from the rest position.
Wingracer is exactly correct. -Eric
I literally just watched a Neil Degrasse Tyson video on the Lagrange points and he used the exact analogy that wingracer used 1, 2 and 3 are on the top of a hill and 4 and 5 are in a valley
Oh, I should have mentioned something else. Things don't usually sit right on L4 and L5 points, they actually orbit around those points. So you have a few rocks and even some spacecraft orbiting around an otherwise invisible point in space. Asteroid 2020 XL5 is one such object
Eric: please don't hesitate to be "mathy". As we move closer to science-fantasy and maybe even science-fiction giving insight on the science background that inspire and inform Brandons systems is incredibly valuable. Honestly I would've loved for you to bust out a whiteboard in the RoW discussions on waves of sound and light.
In my mind, harmony feels like it could be suffocating, but there is a lot of room for growth and creativity (and challenge) in discord.
Mechanics: the reason wax was able to split lerasium and atium from harmonium maybe linked that he used AUTONOMYS metal. The intent of the metal matters, i think. It drove then to be autonomous metals and not one cohesive metal.
In the spiritual realm Melaan is a worldhopping kandra, so she has always been a worldhopping kandra
🤣🤣 Yeah, absolutely Kelsier will kill his friend if its for the good of the Planet.
In my opinion the disconnect may have to do with scale. Perhaps "Discord" refers to a Cosmere-wide level of scale and we are talking about discord (or disagreement) between Scadrial and the other systems at large. We know that the Scadrians are competing with the rest of the Cosmere technologically and so-forth. This would explain why Autonomy wasn't so hype about the coming of Discord. Also explains why the Scadrians (they) would love him for it.
Edit: Okay, Evgeni had the same thought now that I've watched.
Regarding the bands, if I recall correctly the epilogue says that Kelsier is no longer a mistborn in his new body, which means he personally didn't make them or invest them.
That means there is/was another full mistborn/ferachemist around. Possibly Spook with some spikes?
Marsh is almost the best bet for that as far as characters we have seen on screen in era 2
I tend to think that the messed up futuresight is a much simpler explanation than proposed here. We know from atium as well as renarin something that messes up futuresight already, that is other beings with futuresight potentially interfering. Therefore, autonomy's mere presence + intent to interfere is enough to block futuresight. I would propose that this occurs with all shards, though some shards may be better at trying to see through the mess than others anyways (see cultivation). Sazed may have just been too young to fully understand the implications of this when the haze first appeared.
Hey Saze, whatcha got there? - A smoothie.
If Sazed changes into "Discord" I want his first sentence to be something like "this will be of great help for Scadrial, I think... No. I _know._ "
Hear me out. Sazed brakes the shards in 3, gives one piece to Kelsier, one to Marsh, and keeps the other part. And now they become Balance.
I think Sazed will act more and therefore will be loved for protecting his people and planet, but with Discord there will also come new challenges. Maybe he alternates between the two Shards? Or develops two split personalities, being at odds with himself.
The thing is, it’s maybe like the Force? If he causes to much Ruin, then Ruin becomes his driving force, much as the Light and Dark sides in Star Wars?
There are many possibilities, and ALL OF THEM ARE AWESOME 😂🎉❤
Kelsier is not a good vessel for Preservation, but a reshattering of Harmony could and probably would yield something other than Preservation, which might fit Kesler better. I do not much want Kelsier to a be a long-term vessel of a Shard, but it is possible.
You are all 100% sure that Sazed will become discord but the more I listen the less convinced I am. I think harmony is the natural equilibrium that Sazed finds between the 2 shards but that doesn't mean anyone that takes the shards will be Harmony as well. I can see Kelsier either taking down Sazed or convincing him to give up the shards and that Kelsier's equilibrium between the shards turns out to be Discord. The epitaph mentions him being called a blasphemer and being loved for it but what religion does harmony have to blaspheme? The Terris religion is long gone and the Path doesn't seem to have any actual beliefs. Kelsier on the other hand is also the head of a religion that does have rules and services and he also happens to be quite loved. There's a lot there that makes Kelsier himself a potential candidate for Discord.
Theory: Harmony gets a new equilibrium he gets periods of Preservation and periods of Ruin to maintain balance over time like planetary motion. This will be known as Waxing and Wayning of Harmony on Scadrial
ratio: 7/16 and 9/16, but we should be using base 16. or 127/256 129/256
I haven’t seen anyone mention it so just fyi, around 2:10:50 question 4 says brother instead of boyfriend. Got me confused for a couple of minutes there hahha
Yeah we noticed that after upload. Can't fix it now but thanks! -Eric
Mistborn Swat team in ERA 3 called The Sword or something.
random thought, could it be the army of gold and red is in fact the group horneaters that Meelan found on shadesmar? you know like corrupted
"we only have one example of a dual-shard"
*That we know of
On the topic of Harmony having a bunch of agents to throw around: I’m a little annoyed that VenDell was the only kandra sent to help. I understand it from a narrative perspective: we’ve seen him before, we don’t want the kandra stealing the show, it’s funny to see how he’s different from Melaan, etc.
But from an in-world perspective, if you’re going to send one kandra anyway, why not send 10 younger kandra who are all as stab-happy as Melaan and plow through the set. At the very least, I realize Melaan asked for the assignment, but does it really make sense to send the young and immature kandra on the diplomatic mission while you send the old pacifist into battle?
Harmony in era2 feels like an inverted pendulum. Sazed is trying to balance a pole from the bottom and keep it from slipping too much to one side or the other. But it's an unstable state.
By the time we hit era 3, his balance reaches its critical point and the pole comes falling down. It falls on the ruin side, so we see a period of ruin, but then it keeps going and we get an era marked by periodic stability and change. When he's more ruin, they will call him discord and that chaos will push for more innovation and progress. Then we'll see periods of more preservation, which is ultimately what Harmony actually was.
By the time we get to era 4, the oscillations have become less extreme as sazed find his new equilibrium point
"it is yours"
What if this refers to Marsh. He could take up discords as some quasi avatar of harmony. I think his role in the world today is very interesting... weve seen him play some roles such as sending off the dead. Thats my own personal theory. plus, how do the two brothers relate with this new dynamic?
I dont remember the details very well but i thought Kelsier couldnt take up a shard. Not permanently at least. He doesnt have a body yet. Or Im i missing things. Ok i need to look this up; im not sure if thaidakar has a body yet.
I’m inclined to think that Sazed decides not to help with technology. The reason: In sixth of the dusk, the visitors, who are believed to be from scadriel, have a rule about not giving technologies to civilizations that are less advanced.
Hot take about Harmony, spoilers all cosmere.
No seriously. Spoilers.
Very spicy take.
Harmony becomes Discord, who seeks to Preserve populations by bringing Ruin to the threats to them. Discord invades Roshar (and maybe also Braize) with Hemalurgic constructs to Preserve Rosharan humanity by Ruining Odium's forces, thereby maintaining his own balance.
Sazed/Harmony: "[...], I Think"
Chaos in this video, and Discord: "[...], I don't think"
Maybe discord would be a bit like ta veren in WoT. Where Rand changes chances, So a baby might fall from a three storie house and survive, while a perfectly healthy person can trip over a pebble and die. Ruine and preservation both doing their thing. But in the end still ballancing eachother on the greater scale.