Some people seem to be confused (hell, some of you have confused me), so let me clarify what is already pretty clear in the video. I'm discussing whether or not Dawn is guilty of murder. Not whether or not her leadership style was ethical or unethical. What Dawn did as a leader is a **separate issue** and I think everyone can agree with the notion that she was a horrendously unethical and ineffective leader. Did she deserve to be stabbed? In this exact situation? Is she guilty of murder or is it self-defense or manslaughter? That's what this video seeks to answer.
Beth's death was the first crack in the Walking Dead for me. So pointless and dumb. I still don't get it. Also How did Dawn even shoot Beth in the head like that? They were so close together and it didn't even look like her gun was drawn before Beth stabbed her. The whole thing felt unrealistic AF.
Hindsight is what it is, but you're absolutely right. What a waste of a death. I would have been fine with it if there was at least a narrative or thematic point to be made, but it just felt like shock value at the expense of story akd character. I love TWD, and I even enjoy it's two weak seasons for what they ate, but that sort of thing is something I hate in stories in general.
You know personally what makes Beth death equally worse is that the next episode after her death. I's that Tyreese gets killed off next and we aren't given a bit of breathing room after the fact that Beth died just the previous episode. Like mid season premiere and another major character dies immediately. An to top it all off 5 episodes later in episode titled *"Spend"* Noah the guy Beth sacrificed herself for dies just as his character is being built up to be an apprentice to Reg Monroe being taught architecture. Making Beth's death feel even more pointless stupid and just there for shock value. They could have just made Dawn go ballistic and have her try to execute Noah and Beth step in the way taking the bullet instead or something.
Nahhh I feel like the purpose of those deaths were to illustrate how unplanned and unintentional deaths could happen in real life. Just because it’s a show does not guarantee you safety in a zombie apocalypse. I feel like by them killing characters off so unexpectedly it illustrates how deaths can happen literally at any time at any point for any reason in real life. It just happens.
Also, it was extra stupid of Beth to stab Dawn because both groups were already on tense terms within the edge of a firefight, and it seemed they were on the way out fairly peacefully. Beth should've considered that her random act of stabbing Dawn could've led to a massacre and dozens of more people dying.
What yall don’t understand I feel like is Beth was a young impulsive kid who already kind of hated Dawn enough as is especially for the fact she was gonna take Noah away. She probably did that as a last ditch get back at Dawn even if it was stupid cause she probably wasn’t thinking.
@@MsDopeyy I think it would’ve been an even trade if Noah wasn’t their. Rick should’ve told them officer bob and Noah got ate by walkers after he tried to escape. Noah should’ve waited outside smh.
"Unnecessary death written into the plot". 100% agree on that. We all know Dawn is a weak leader. Lets say Rick was like,"No. Noah is coming with us" and slowly walk away there's a high chance of Dawn doing nothing about it. Also Rick's group has more firepower than the cops.
Dawn knew thatbif she didn’t at least try getting Noah back, she would lose her power, but I think she was bluffing. Rick’s group had way more fire power than Dawn’s group and I don’t even think the cops would’ve sided with Dawn, some of them already thought she was losing the plot. If Noah said “I’m not staying” Rick would’ve protected him and there’s not much Dawn could’ve done to stop Rick’s group from taking him. Dawn was in a lose lose situation, no matter what she did, she was going to lose her power with the cops
@@TheRealCaptainGold I think the cops in the hospital actually wanted to join Rick´s group, but they were afraid of leaving the safety of the hospital, which ended being their demise. It was revealed some time ago that everyone in the hospital died
I kinda did see it as Beth finally committing suicide (willingly) in order to free Noah and all the others under Dawn. I think Beth traded her life for Noah willingly. And by stabbing the cop with the scissors she finally got her stab in on an abuser and exposed Dawn to the rest of her group. I really did think Beth knew she was going to die but had had enough of everyone she cares about being lost and made sure Noah escaped. I think they just portrayed that terribly. Her character begins with her in a catatonic state and having tried to commit suicide, her character ended with her sacrifical suicide that saved her friend and exposed Dawn for what she was. They coulda made it less confusing with better cinematography
@@Tyler_W agreed. To me it was full circle. Beth wasn't stupid. She knew stabbing Dawn with a pair of scissors would cause her to shoot. Beth's last words to Noah, the hug, and then her immediate turn to face Dawn and stab her show that she made a choice. Leave, with her friend trapped, with a person who'd abused her simply getting to do it to all the others... She wasn't leaving with Noah trapped there, clearly. But the way it was filmed, I don't blame the majority of the audience not getting it. It was a shame because her death was very meaningful and saved the hospital people's lives too, Beth's death freed them and Noah. Beth wasn't afraid to die. She sacrificed herself by showing Dawn's brutality to her group who she knew would act. She wasn't dealing with a stalemate of leaving Noah behind. She was SO over it. You can see her muster up the courage and anger and make the choice to stab Dawn. If they'd focused more on Beth during that scene and drawn the camera shots on her out a little longer, I think it would've made her death much clearer. I thought alot about it cause I can relate to Beth.. in her final moments she wasn't being dragged around like a helpless ragdoll anymore... She finally took control over her own life, and her death, and made it mean something. Beth always talked about things having to mean something, and actions having meaning, in her life, even in the most dire of situations she was adamant about that. No sembelence of the guitar playing girl was left, she'd been through enough, lost so many people, too many to leave behind Noah And despite her being a weaker member of the group I don't think it's in her personality to leave someone behind. I don't think she was ever planning on accepting that deal
Id say yes and no. Her view of whats right and wrong in general was bad but her instinct to instantly counter attack if someone stabs you was normal. Rick and Daryl would have reacted the same if someone attacked them
Was Dawn's reaction understandable? Yes. However, she was ultimately responsible for what happened to her and she MURDERED Beth (at least according to modern US law). In most places in the US, if someone dies as a result of you commiting a felony, you can be charged with murder. It's pretty safe to assume that kidnapping and/or enforced labor (slavery) would be considered a felony. Dawn has no right to override Noah's autonomy as a free individual and she was in the wrong lawfully, ethically, and morally. Not only that, but most states allow deadly force to be used if someone is commiting a felony against you or another person, so although Beth's decision was ultimately stupid (although I personally believe she saw it as a self-sacrifice which is righteous [especially to Beth in regards to John 15: 12-13; “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.]), it was justified lawfully, ethically, and morally. Dawn was in the wrong 100% and while Beth could have been smarter about how she approached the situation, she was 100% in the right. It's a shame Noah didn't last too much longer after she traded her life for his.
Just when I started to like Beth , thinking she might become an interesting survivor , a worthwhile story arc she commits suicide in the most ridiculous way. Stabbing an unstable person with a loaded gun what was she expecting to happen, and the stab was in the shoulder for goodness sake’s .
You know thinking about how many groups/people that Rick and co came across minus the obviously psychopathic ones they could’ve recruited and had a decent home/chance to live way earlier, each human has valuable skills
I actually feel quite bad for dawn as a character. She is far, far from perfect. But using a lot of other groups around her as an example she could be considered fairly decent, sorta. Some of her flaws could even be chalked up to situation or stress. Then agains some of her flaws aren’t exactly new to the apocalypse so eh. Either way interesting character and group that I wish we saw more of
I didn't disliked Dawn for the way she treated Beth in the hospital more than her killing Beth because it was quite literally a self-defense situation Beth tried to kill her so of course her natural reaction would be to shoot especially when you consider the fact that she's a police officer with training in life or death situations where split seconds matters. Now Dawn was quite of a bitch to Beth and I can most definitely understand why she would want to stab her but I mean like did Beth expect her to just stand there and not react❔😭 She should've punched or slapped her or something but trying to kill her was downright absurd. And I was just starting to like Beth in that season her character was finally developing and I was excited to see what they were gonna do with her next and then boom💥 just like that she's gone and her death did catch me off guard and make me sad but in hindsight she played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. Now when it comes to Daryl killing Dawn I can't really be too mad at him because he was just reacting off impulse (as he usually does) 🌚 and at that point Beth was pretty much like his sister but Dawn definitely didn't deserve to die maybe she deserved a punch or a slap in the face but not a bullet to the Head. And a lot of people like to say that the hospital arc was pointless and I agree but I feel like it adds realism to the show cuz in a situation like the zombie Apocalypse pointless things and blank missions could easily happen and people would die as a result that's just the reality of it all and I feel like the writers weren't scared to show that. Just think about how many things you've broken your neck trying to get done that resulted in nothing before everyone's probably done it at least once.
the real criminals of this scene are the writers. a little side note: Noah wasn't part of the deal and Dawn had no right claiming him. (But that still doesn't make her deserving of the death penalty)
She did let a lot of shitty things go on in the hospital though, like Gorman for sure. Dunno / I forget if she knew about the doctor that lived there. Dawn wasn't blind, she was just ignoring horrendous shit in hopes that it would pay off later.
Deaths Beef. I mean Beth's death was a relief. No more grinning. No more child like naivety. No more singing. Jesus, I wish they'd taken Jimmy at the farm and left her. Poor Jimmy. We had such memories of him. Who can forget... Who can ... Who...listen Jimmy was something.
Could you do a video discussing if Kenny was right with the Larry situation in telltales the walking dead game season 1..... Really love the videos keep it up your doing a fantastic job
I think the intent of the scene was that she clenched her hands in pain from being stabbed and the gun was just in that position, im pretty sure they stupidly removed the part of the scene which shows the gun being pulled and positioned
I think the common theme on TWD is that power corrupts. Every group leader that we meet is deeply flawed, vengeful, sometimes downright evil- including Rick. Obviously Rick is the hero and his actions are often justified, but he went over to the dark side more than once. The best example is Negan. We see that he was a decent person who loved his wife, but had a bit of a bad streak before the apocalypse with infidelity and anger issues. But with his rise to power, he hurt people and did horrid things to win over the hearts and minds of the saviors. When he was dethroned, put in prison and given a chance to redeem himself, he does. We see he can be decent when the pressure isn’t on all on him. And to be fair, he was a good leader to the saviors. A lot of them were bad people, but he had a zero tolerance policy on rape and he kept his men in line. One could say he played the bad guy so that the saviors didn’t become worse. Fallou on the Daryl Dixon show is probably the only truly virtuous leader in the TWD universe. Of course we haven’t seen that much of him yet.
I don't know what's worse, her death or the people saying they don't like her because she sings... Couldn't you have a more stupid reason to deslike a character?
Interestingly in this whole scenario- Noah would’ve likely lasted longer had he gone with Dawn and we may have still had Beth today (but her personality wasn’t long for this world in any case)
Beth had been imprisoned there for a while with only Noah to bond with, and she was watching him go away back to enslavement. I think it only makes sense to think of it as Beth sacrificing herself to save him, and not that she thought those comically small scissors being jammed in that thick jacket would kill somebody. Enslavement and death are similar enough in that someone facing one might prefer the other both ways, so dismissing what Dawn was doing to Noah didn't make sense. She was psychologically and physically torturing them.
Dawn can be guilty of those crimes and be innocent here, simultaneously. Fact of the matter is, Beth's act needlessly endangered everyone and wasn't remotely necessary.
Yea to this day I never understood why Beth didn’t just get outta there. Even if she wanted revenge, she could’ve done it a different way. Is that a Dying Light theme that I hear in the background?
I really wish Noah would have lived longer. He had so much potential only to die the way he did 😭 Also Dawn definitely killed her by accident. She didn't want to because in her own way she did care about beth and noah.
I wish Beth have lived longer because I think she’d could have become such a great character for if she had the chance to grow (I also love that we have the same name) 😢
I’m a little curious, how come the police of Atlanta or the other patients that were at the hospital? Why didn’t they join Rick’s group? I mean they would’ve been better off traveling together besides the more fighters that were the more likely they would’ve met Alexandria and I know it’s a show again or makes a group stronger is it’s not always and who’s the toughest fighters.
Man I remembered this wrong. I always thought she just shot Beth as she walked away. Didn't realize Beth stabbed her in such a dumb way. Go for the head next time :]
Everything you said is absolutely true and morally correct. At the same time, they would never have been in this situation if Dawn wasn't such a disingenuous person and an incompetant leader who fostered a culture of fake civility and enabled exploitation within her group. She may not have deserved to get killed for anything that happened at the trade-off, but her death is also, I believe undeniably, an unintended consequence of her own willfully bad decisions. She's a great example of, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
WHEN DID SHE HAVE THE PISTOL IN HER HAND TO BEGIN WITH?? I always wondered why her pistol was in hand instead of secured in her holster when this happened. Dawn drawing her firearm and firing a shot would be seen as an act of self defense but the way it happened makes it seem as though she didn’t mean to do it. It doesn’t make much sense if you put some thought into imo.
I agree it wasn’t on purpose for Dawn to kill Beth but the issue is she shouldn’t have had her gun out. Not during trade like the one they had going on, this means she already had intent to shoot/kill SOMEONE. Therefore she’s still wrong, and no I don’t think Beth was wrong Dawn was a horrible leader she kept people there against their will.
I hated this part of the show, it really dragged down S5 a bit, even if it's one of the best seasons, it resulted in nothing pretty much, Beth died cause of her own stupidity and the person she ''rescued'' Noah, would die shortly after, what a waste of time.
You should start making 9-10 minutes videos, you clearly have a knack for it. I listen to videos like these whenever I’m doing something but don’t wanna be bored doing it, I think whilst it would take more time to create bigger length videos I think it would be beneficial for your channel
Dawn was really just scared scared of failing her self scared of failing others she was just trying to stop the group from falling apart doesn’t justify anything she did tho
Slightly unrelated: Alot of people say the show jumped the shark during the Glenn-dumpster death fakeout. But i think the episode where Beth and later Tyreese died was when the show truly started going downhill. The espisodes that followed those two weren't bad. Some were a bit on the boring side and the last episode of the season was solid. But i think the show should've had a little epilogue showing Morgan living amongst the group and that should have been the end of the show. since then, literally each and every episode following season 5 was getting worse and worse and more and more nonsensical. Like the episode where Rick Grimes (an intelligent man who doesnt trust easy bc hes an experienced survivor, father of a teenage boy and infant daughter, and has a love interest [Michonne], a group, and a whole town to lead and look after) risks endagering himself and the whole group by leading a raid and infiltration mission against a group of people they have almost nothing to do with. That episode is one of the most overated episodes I've ever seen and it just didnt make much sense to me. why is he randomly trusting the hilltop? why is he suddenly so cocky? why is he making deals with people he doesnt know? why is he risking the lives of everyone in alexandria and his group by having every decent enforcer join in on a raid against the saviors instead of conducting at least a couple of days worth of recon? just because Negan killed a teenager to prove a point to Hilltop? sure that is horrific. but thats all the more reason for Rick to not associate with The Hilltop and The Saviors. From then on the show kept dipping lower and lower in quality. This was before season 7, and the show was dipping before season 5. i mean, nothing as stupid as Beth and Tyreese's death happened since the whole well-incident on the farm in season 2. The last episode of season 6 was alright. Negan rambled too much and i was kinda confused as to why Steven Ogg wasnt the one to play Negan. i mean Negan in the comics is almost two meters tall, physically strong, intimidating, and he has a receding hairline. Steven Ogg is like 6'3, pretty sinewy, and likeably intimidating, if that makes sense. Anyhow, JDM wasnt bad. But thats besides the point. almost every single episode after the last episode of season 5 was boring, poorly written, and all over the place
Yes she was guilty, but Beth was guilty too, had she not have stabbed her! Especially in a zombie apocalypse. But at least we didn’t have to hear Beth SING anymore!
Noah lowkey started all of this shit. I don’t know why he went back in there to overlook the trade. His main goal was to escape and the next thing he did was went back. He could’ve faked his death and waited outside w the rest of the group.
Do you know that’s one thing thing I don’t understand about Beth’s death, I mean she could’ve gone with a group she would’ve went with them someplace else yet why did she stab the police woman I mean what was she trying to prove? She only ended up getting herself killed in a reflexive instinct she pretty much left Maggie without a sister being trapped control or was this approved that was corrupt regardless?
I think she wanted to help Noah, but it def backfired. She was still under 20, so probs didn't fully understand the weight of what she had done. She made an impulsive decision and it got her killed. Tbh I was devastated since she was one of fave chars of the show at that time.
If she was insistent on killing Dawn in that moment, than she should’ve at least brought a better weapon than those ridiculously tiny scissors And it’s not like Dawn could have done anything if Rick said no and kept walking, even then I might have been fine with her dying if Noah wasn’t killed off a few episodes later
it doesn't matter if beth was being stupid or not, the point is dawn had no self control over her body, I as a person have mastered self control over my body, if someone stabbed me in the collar i wouldn't have reacted like how dawn did it, and even if you feel like she was wrong she still committed manslaughter, in todays rules and laws still punishable and can still lead to a prison sentence even more so if you are military trained, martial arts trained, or some other form of training like cops because regardless if you meant to or not you have skills that considers you to be a deadly weapon in itself therefore people who have better capabilities to fight, kill, or protect themselves get punished harder for the degree of crime, as unrealistic as con air was, it still displayed the basic concept of this or how a judge might react in turn to you killing someone in self defense, like you said integrity and self control over your reactions is the most important otherwise you are just another stupid animal aimlessly walking around.
"if someone stabbed me in the collar i wouldn't have reacted like how dawn did it" Might be overselling yourself there bud. An American cop reacting the way Dawn did makes sense.
@@TheRealCaptainGold LMFAO no I am not, I have been stabbed and didn't react that way so no not overselling it, you don't know Jack bud, if a pedophile molests a child because they are unable to control their sexual behavior towards said child that still makes them a pedophile so someone unable to exercise self control to a stab wound and fires a gun is still a murderer hence why its called man slaughter, whether she meant to or not it still happened, therefore Rick and the group had every right to kill her.
0:30 apparently, Carl did something to get kicked off the show. No one will really common on what it was. But the rumors is that he had bad onset behavior. My favorite episode, in the entire series. Comes from this arc. Consumed my most watched episode.
@@ih8theantichrist well I don’t know that’s just what I remember. Being said. Pretty dumb to kill him off. If he just needed to go to college. Why not pull a rick or Maggie?, Negan, Alicia. Why kill him off considering his important to the story
The video should been titled "is Dawn guilty for killing Beth?". Because you completely skipped over all the terrible shit that dawn did, beforehand. I agree that killing Beth in self-defense doesn't make her guilty, but you seriously failed to mention everything else that Dawn did that makes her a guilty person.
@@TheRealCaptainGoldnot really. If you have to make a disclaimer and pin it to the top of the comments, I don't think it's that obvious. I'd say just edit the title, that'd fix the miscommunication issue.
@@dorkbrandon4422 that has nothing to do with my opinion about Beth. Can't I just say what I want without being judged?? Unbelievable how sensitive are people nowadays... 🙄
Some people seem to be confused (hell, some of you have confused me), so let me clarify what is already pretty clear in the video. I'm discussing whether or not Dawn is guilty of murder. Not whether or not her leadership style was ethical or unethical. What Dawn did as a leader is a **separate issue** and I think everyone can agree with the notion that she was a horrendously unethical and ineffective leader. Did she deserve to be stabbed? In this exact situation? Is she guilty of murder or is it self-defense or manslaughter? That's what this video seeks to answer.
Beth's death was the first crack in the Walking Dead for me. So pointless and dumb. I still don't get it. Also How did Dawn even shoot Beth in the head like that? They were so close together and it didn't even look like her gun was drawn before Beth stabbed her. The whole thing felt unrealistic AF.
Couldn't agree more. Tbh though the whole hospital arc was pretty darn pointless.
The show is about dead bodies who come to life, walk around and eat people. Realistic isn't the word.
@@micahbell5572 Forced then.
No, the point is about survival and also questioning your own humanity. That’s. Entire walking dead franchise
I got my girlfriend to start watching, she didn’t realize how dumb Beth’s death was until I really sat there and explained why it wasn’t necessary.
It’s even worse when you see how it all ends up for Noah. 💀
Hindsight is what it is, but you're absolutely right. What a waste of a death. I would have been fine with it if there was at least a narrative or thematic point to be made, but it just felt like shock value at the expense of story akd character. I love TWD, and I even enjoy it's two weak seasons for what they ate, but that sort of thing is something I hate in stories in general.
💀
And Tyreese
You know personally what makes Beth death equally worse is that the next episode after her death. I's that Tyreese gets killed off next and we aren't given a bit of breathing room after the fact that Beth died just the previous episode. Like mid season premiere and another major character dies immediately.
An to top it all off 5 episodes later in episode titled *"Spend"* Noah the guy Beth sacrificed herself for dies just as his character is being built up to be an apprentice to Reg Monroe being taught architecture. Making Beth's death feel even more pointless stupid and just there for shock value. They could have just made Dawn go ballistic and have her try to execute Noah and Beth step in the way taking the bullet instead or something.
Nahhh I feel like the purpose of those deaths were to illustrate how unplanned and unintentional deaths could happen in real life. Just because it’s a show does not guarantee you safety in a zombie apocalypse. I feel like by them killing characters off so unexpectedly it illustrates how deaths can happen literally at any time at any point for any reason in real life. It just happens.
Yup. Def a case of suicide by cop.
Also, it was extra stupid of Beth to stab Dawn because both groups were already on tense terms within the edge of a firefight, and it seemed they were on the way out fairly peacefully. Beth should've considered that her random act of stabbing Dawn could've led to a massacre and dozens of more people dying.
And that's what some people don't seem to understand.
I wonder how the cops are doing without dawn. The lady cop that said “hold your fire” saved tons of lives that day.
What yall don’t understand I feel like is Beth was a young impulsive kid who already kind of hated Dawn enough as is especially for the fact she was gonna take Noah away. She probably did that as a last ditch get back at Dawn even if it was stupid cause she probably wasn’t thinking.
@@MsDopeyy I think it would’ve been an even trade if Noah wasn’t their. Rick should’ve told them officer bob and Noah got ate by walkers after he tried to escape. Noah should’ve waited outside smh.
@@2200shotta probablyyy, I doubt they would’ve gone out of their way to search for Noah and verify that.
"Unnecessary death written into the plot". 100% agree on that.
We all know Dawn is a weak leader. Lets say Rick was like,"No. Noah is coming with us" and slowly walk away there's a high chance of Dawn doing nothing about it. Also Rick's group has more firepower than the cops.
I hate how Rick walked back when they asked for Noah. He knew dawn wasnt going to have a shootout over Noah cmon now.
Dawn knew thatbif she didn’t at least try getting Noah back, she would lose her power, but I think she was bluffing. Rick’s group had way more fire power than Dawn’s group and I don’t even think the cops would’ve sided with Dawn, some of them already thought she was losing the plot. If Noah said “I’m not staying” Rick would’ve protected him and there’s not much Dawn could’ve done to stop Rick’s group from taking him. Dawn was in a lose lose situation, no matter what she did, she was going to lose her power with the cops
The greatest irony was that Dawn's own people were going to dethrone her. No one had to die.
@@TheRealCaptainGold I think the cops in the hospital actually wanted to join Rick´s group, but they were afraid of leaving the safety of the hospital, which ended being their demise. It was revealed some time ago that everyone in the hospital died
@@juanmanuelcardona19 They probably did. And yeah, Nicotero made that reveal during a Q&A. They all dead.
When you get killed for simply defending yourself
Dawn and the Hospital Crew saved Beths life PERIOD
@@Ch1co541They STOLE her and then played heroes
I kinda did see it as Beth finally committing suicide (willingly) in order to free Noah and all the others under Dawn. I think Beth traded her life for Noah willingly. And by stabbing the cop with the scissors she finally got her stab in on an abuser and exposed Dawn to the rest of her group. I really did think Beth knew she was going to die but had had enough of everyone she cares about being lost and made sure Noah escaped. I think they just portrayed that terribly. Her character begins with her in a catatonic state and having tried to commit suicide, her character ended with her sacrifical suicide that saved her friend and exposed Dawn for what she was. They coulda made it less confusing with better cinematography
Agreed. Better shot framing would have better communicated this, but I think you make am excellent case.
@@Tyler_W agreed. To me it was full circle. Beth wasn't stupid. She knew stabbing Dawn with a pair of scissors would cause her to shoot. Beth's last words to Noah, the hug, and then her immediate turn to face Dawn and stab her show that she made a choice. Leave, with her friend trapped, with a person who'd abused her simply getting to do it to all the others... She wasn't leaving with Noah trapped there, clearly. But the way it was filmed, I don't blame the majority of the audience not getting it. It was a shame because her death was very meaningful and saved the hospital people's lives too, Beth's death freed them and Noah. Beth wasn't afraid to die. She sacrificed herself by showing Dawn's brutality to her group who she knew would act.
She wasn't dealing with a stalemate of leaving Noah behind. She was SO over it. You can see her muster up the courage and anger and make the choice to stab Dawn. If they'd focused more on Beth during that scene and drawn the camera shots on her out a little longer, I think it would've made her death much clearer. I thought alot about it cause I can relate to Beth.. in her final moments she wasn't being dragged around like a helpless ragdoll anymore... She finally took control over her own life, and her death, and made it mean something. Beth always talked about things having to mean something, and actions having meaning, in her life, even in the most dire of situations she was adamant about that. No sembelence of the guitar playing girl was left, she'd been through enough, lost so many people, too many to leave behind Noah
And despite her being a weaker member of the group I don't think it's in her personality to leave someone behind. I don't think she was ever planning on accepting that deal
Id say yes and no. Her view of whats right and wrong in general was bad but her instinct to instantly counter attack if someone stabs you was normal. Rick and Daryl would have reacted the same if someone attacked them
Daryl reacted the same even when he wasn't the one getting hurt in THIS situation so yeah absolutely
Was Dawn's reaction understandable? Yes.
However, she was ultimately responsible for what happened to her and she MURDERED Beth (at least according to modern US law).
In most places in the US, if someone dies as a result of you commiting a felony, you can be charged with murder.
It's pretty safe to assume that kidnapping and/or enforced labor (slavery) would be considered a felony.
Dawn has no right to override Noah's autonomy as a free individual and she was in the wrong lawfully, ethically, and morally.
Not only that, but most states allow deadly force to be used if someone is commiting a felony against you or another person, so although Beth's decision was ultimately stupid (although I personally believe she saw it as a self-sacrifice which is righteous [especially to Beth in regards to John 15: 12-13; “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.]), it was justified lawfully, ethically, and morally.
Dawn was in the wrong 100% and while Beth could have been smarter about how she approached the situation, she was 100% in the right.
It's a shame Noah didn't last too much longer after she traded her life for his.
It’s a shame considering it wasn’t even his fault but the fault of the selfish asshole who decided to sacrifice him and possibly Glenn for himself.
Just when I started to like Beth , thinking she might become an interesting survivor , a worthwhile story arc she commits suicide in the most ridiculous way. Stabbing an unstable person with a loaded gun what was she expecting to happen, and the stab was in the shoulder for goodness sake’s .
I like how this fella doesn’t stray away from punctuating the occasional sentence with some cus words
You know thinking about how many groups/people that Rick and co came across minus the obviously psychopathic ones they could’ve recruited and had a decent home/chance to live way earlier, each human has valuable skills
My boy sounds like he’s doing damage control for a police union 😂
In my Carl video, everyone else is doing the damage control.
@@TheRealCaptainGold lol accurate I just wish they didn’t kill Beth off this way. Terrible writing
@@HolyRollerGuero Beth, Tyreese, Noah. Season 5 had some poorly written shock-value deaths.
@@TheRealCaptainGoldTyrese hit me the hardest even compared to the line up.
I actually feel quite bad for dawn as a character. She is far, far from perfect. But using a lot of other groups around her as an example she could be considered fairly decent, sorta.
Some of her flaws could even be chalked up to situation or stress.
Then agains some of her flaws aren’t exactly new to the apocalypse so eh. Either way interesting character and group that I wish we saw more of
MET THIS OFFICER AT A CON LAST WEEK. SHE WAS SUPER COOL 😎
Beth sacrificed herself so Noah can have the best death scene in TWD history. She didn’t die in vain
I can understand why Beth would stab Dawn cuz she really hate Dawn for everything they done and they still want to take Noah
Another quality bud. Keep em coming, double the length. We want more captain gold
Ask and you shall receive, in due time.
I didn't disliked Dawn for the way she treated Beth in the hospital more than her killing Beth because it was quite literally a self-defense situation Beth tried to kill her so of course her natural reaction would be to shoot especially when you consider the fact that she's a police officer with training in life or death situations where split seconds matters. Now Dawn was quite of a bitch to Beth and I can most definitely understand why she would want to stab her but I mean like did Beth expect her to just stand there and not react❔😭 She should've punched or slapped her or something but trying to kill her was downright absurd. And I was just starting to like Beth in that season her character was finally developing and I was excited to see what they were gonna do with her next and then boom💥 just like that she's gone and her death did catch me off guard and make me sad but in hindsight she played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. Now when it comes to Daryl killing Dawn I can't really be too mad at him because he was just reacting off impulse (as he usually does) 🌚 and at that point Beth was pretty much like his sister but Dawn definitely didn't deserve to die maybe she deserved a punch or a slap in the face but not a bullet to the Head. And a lot of people like to say that the hospital arc was pointless and I agree but I feel like it adds realism to the show cuz in a situation like the zombie Apocalypse pointless things and blank missions could easily happen and people would die as a result that's just the reality of it all and I feel like the writers weren't scared to show that. Just think about how many things you've broken your neck trying to get done that resulted in nothing before everyone's probably done it at least once.
It was an unfortunate situation guys. We wish it would have gone otherwise. These situations happen irl.
the real criminals of this scene are the writers.
a little side note: Noah wasn't part of the deal and Dawn had no right claiming him. (But that still doesn't make her deserving of the death penalty)
She did let a lot of shitty things go on in the hospital though, like Gorman for sure. Dunno / I forget if she knew about the doctor that lived there. Dawn wasn't blind, she was just ignoring horrendous shit in hopes that it would pay off later.
Deaths Beef. I mean Beth's death was a relief. No more grinning. No more child like naivety. No more singing.
Jesus, I wish they'd taken Jimmy at the farm and left her.
Poor Jimmy. We had such memories of him. Who can forget... Who can ... Who...listen Jimmy was something.
Jimmy would be Equivalent of Billy Greene from Comics
Dawn needed to d*e but I don't think she meant to k*ll Beth.
The irony is that her own group was about to dethrone her anyway.
such a gold content explaining minor scenes or major sometimes from twd i love it keep it up
They had no clue how to get rid of her this was the best they could do
I was JUST thinking about this last night and hoping you would make a video about it
Could you do a video discussing if Kenny was right with the Larry situation in telltales the walking dead game season 1..... Really love the videos keep it up your doing a fantastic job
Thanks for the gift! I’ll certainly add it to my list.
I think the intent of the scene was that she clenched her hands in pain from being stabbed and the gun was just in that position, im pretty sure they stupidly removed the part of the scene which shows the gun being pulled and positioned
I think the common theme on TWD is that power corrupts. Every group leader that we meet is deeply flawed, vengeful, sometimes downright evil- including Rick. Obviously Rick is the hero and his actions are often justified, but he went over to the dark side more than once.
The best example is Negan. We see that he was a decent person who loved his wife, but had a bit of a bad streak before the apocalypse with infidelity and anger issues. But with his rise to power, he hurt people and did horrid things to win over the hearts and minds of the saviors. When he was dethroned, put in prison and given a chance to redeem himself, he does. We see he can be decent when the pressure isn’t on all on him. And to be fair, he was a good leader to the saviors. A lot of them were bad people, but he had a zero tolerance policy on rape and he kept his men in line. One could say he played the bad guy so that the saviors didn’t become worse.
Fallou on the Daryl Dixon show is probably the only truly virtuous leader in the TWD universe. Of course we haven’t seen that much of him yet.
I don't know what's worse, her death or the people saying they don't like her because she sings... Couldn't you have a more stupid reason to deslike a character?
Interestingly in this whole scenario- Noah would’ve likely lasted longer had he gone with Dawn and we may have still had Beth today (but her personality wasn’t long for this world in any case)
Beth had been imprisoned there for a while with only Noah to bond with, and she was watching him go away back to enslavement. I think it only makes sense to think of it as Beth sacrificing herself to save him, and not that she thought those comically small scissors being jammed in that thick jacket would kill somebody. Enslavement and death are similar enough in that someone facing one might prefer the other both ways, so dismissing what Dawn was doing to Noah didn't make sense. She was psychologically and physically torturing them.
Dawn can be guilty of those crimes and be innocent here, simultaneously. Fact of the matter is, Beth's act needlessly endangered everyone and wasn't remotely necessary.
Well in Daryl’s eyes it was necessary
@@MikeLewis1964 It's a good thing Daryl ain't god lol
imprisoned??? She were saved by these people.
@@Ch1co541 yeah after they hit Beth with their car
Yea to this day I never understood why Beth didn’t just get outta there. Even if she wanted revenge, she could’ve done it a different way. Is that a Dying Light theme that I hear in the background?
Daamn i was just watching your Shane video earlier. What a coincidence, LOL😂
I really wish Noah would have lived longer. He had so much potential only to die the way he did 😭
Also Dawn definitely killed her by accident. She didn't want to because in her own way she did care about beth and noah.
I'd love to see an analysis of her leadership skills
I wish Beth have lived longer because I think she’d could have become such a great character for if she had the chance to grow (I also love that we have the same name) 😢
I’m a little curious, how come the police of Atlanta or the other patients that were at the hospital? Why didn’t they join Rick’s group? I mean they would’ve been better off traveling together besides the more fighters that were the more likely they would’ve met Alexandria and I know it’s a show again or makes a group stronger is it’s not always and who’s the toughest fighters.
i’d love a video on if Carol was right to try and destroy Alpha’s horde in the mines :)
Please make a video breaking down the ethics of Dawn's ideology. That would be really interesting.
Man I remembered this wrong. I always thought she just shot Beth as she walked away. Didn't realize Beth stabbed her in such a dumb way. Go for the head next time :]
Everything you said is absolutely true and morally correct. At the same time, they would never have been in this situation if Dawn wasn't such a disingenuous person and an incompetant leader who fostered a culture of fake civility and enabled exploitation within her group. She may not have deserved to get killed for anything that happened at the trade-off, but her death is also, I believe undeniably, an unintended consequence of her own willfully bad decisions. She's a great example of, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
WHEN DID SHE HAVE THE PISTOL IN HER HAND TO BEGIN WITH?? I always wondered why her pistol was in hand instead of secured in her holster when this happened. Dawn drawing her firearm and firing a shot would be seen as an act of self defense but the way it happened makes it seem as though she didn’t mean to do it. It doesn’t make much sense if you put some thought into imo.
Just crappy cinematography imo lol
And also why did she shoot her in the head if it's self defense. She could've shot in the stomach. Idk i might stupid.
On top of that it’s very hard to get a clean headshot from the angle she was holding her pistol at
I agree it wasn’t on purpose for Dawn to kill Beth but the issue is she shouldn’t have had her gun out. Not during trade like the one they had going on, this means she already had intent to shoot/kill SOMEONE. Therefore she’s still wrong, and no I don’t think Beth was wrong Dawn was a horrible leader she kept people there against their will.
I hated this part of the show, it really dragged down S5 a bit, even if it's one of the best seasons, it resulted in nothing pretty much, Beth died cause of her own stupidity and the person she ''rescued'' Noah, would die shortly after, what a waste of time.
You should start making 9-10 minutes videos, you clearly have a knack for it.
I listen to videos like these whenever I’m doing something but don’t wanna be bored doing it, I think whilst it would take more time to create bigger length videos I think it would be beneficial for your channel
Can you do a video on the Governor please?
It's in the works.
The justice system is gone
Dawn was really just scared scared of failing her self scared of failing others she was just trying to stop the group from falling apart doesn’t justify anything she did tho
Slightly unrelated:
Alot of people say the show jumped the shark during the Glenn-dumpster death fakeout. But i think the episode where Beth and later Tyreese died was when the show truly started going downhill.
The espisodes that followed those two weren't bad. Some were a bit on the boring side and the last episode of the season was solid. But i think the show should've had a little epilogue showing Morgan living amongst the group and that should have been the end of the show. since then, literally each and every episode following season 5 was getting worse and worse and more and more nonsensical. Like the episode where Rick Grimes (an intelligent man who doesnt trust easy bc hes an experienced survivor, father of a teenage boy and infant daughter, and has a love interest [Michonne], a group, and a whole town to lead and look after) risks endagering himself and the whole group by leading a raid and infiltration mission against a group of people they have almost nothing to do with. That episode is one of the most overated episodes I've ever seen and it just didnt make much sense to me. why is he randomly trusting the hilltop? why is he suddenly so cocky? why is he making deals with people he doesnt know? why is he risking the lives of everyone in alexandria and his group by having every decent enforcer join in on a raid against the saviors instead of conducting at least a couple of days worth of recon? just because Negan killed a teenager to prove a point to Hilltop? sure that is horrific. but thats all the more reason for Rick to not associate with The Hilltop and The Saviors.
From then on the show kept dipping lower and lower in quality. This was before season 7, and the show was dipping before season 5. i mean, nothing as stupid as Beth and Tyreese's death happened since the whole well-incident on the farm in season 2.
The last episode of season 6 was alright. Negan rambled too much and i was kinda confused as to why Steven Ogg wasnt the one to play Negan. i mean Negan in the comics is almost two meters tall, physically strong, intimidating, and he has a receding hairline. Steven Ogg is like 6'3, pretty sinewy, and likeably intimidating, if that makes sense. Anyhow, JDM wasnt bad. But thats besides the point. almost every single episode after the last episode of season 5 was boring, poorly written, and all over the place
She feared for her life😂😂
Lmao not the Dawn sigma music edit
Yup! Dawn was smoking hot. Gotta admit I couldn't take my eyes off her watching the episodes.😍
Suicide case by the police officer, sounds very American to me
Yes she was guilty, but Beth was guilty too, had she not have stabbed her! Especially in a zombie apocalypse. But at least we didn’t have to hear Beth SING anymore!
I absolutely never saw her as a villain. Still killing Beth was a Heartbreak but she didn‘t mean to.
Noah lowkey started all of this shit. I don’t know why he went back in there to overlook the trade. His main goal was to escape and the next thing he did was went back. He could’ve faked his death and waited outside w the rest of the group.
@@2200shotta yea i was thinking the same he could have just stayed outside.
Do you know that’s one thing thing I don’t understand about Beth’s death, I mean she could’ve gone with a group she would’ve went with them someplace else yet why did she stab the police woman I mean what was she trying to prove? She only ended up getting herself killed in a reflexive instinct she pretty much left Maggie without a sister being trapped control or was this approved that was corrupt regardless?
I think she wanted to help Noah, but it def backfired. She was still under 20, so probs didn't fully understand the weight of what she had done. She made an impulsive decision and it got her killed. Tbh I was devastated since she was one of fave chars of the show at that time.
If she was insistent on killing Dawn in that moment, than she should’ve at least brought a better weapon than those ridiculously tiny scissors
And it’s not like Dawn could have done anything if Rick said no and kept walking, even then I might have been fine with her dying if Noah wasn’t killed off a few episodes later
I cheered after whats her names sister died
it doesn't matter if beth was being stupid or not, the point is dawn had no self control over her body, I as a person have mastered self control over my body, if someone stabbed me in the collar i wouldn't have reacted like how dawn did it, and even if you feel like she was wrong she still committed manslaughter, in todays rules and laws still punishable and can still lead to a prison sentence even more so if you are military trained, martial arts trained, or some other form of training like cops because regardless if you meant to or not you have skills that considers you to be a deadly weapon in itself therefore people who have better capabilities to fight, kill, or protect themselves get punished harder for the degree of crime, as unrealistic as con air was, it still displayed the basic concept of this or how a judge might react in turn to you killing someone in self defense, like you said integrity and self control over your reactions is the most important otherwise you are just another stupid animal aimlessly walking around.
"if someone stabbed me in the collar i wouldn't have reacted like how dawn did it"
Might be overselling yourself there bud. An American cop reacting the way Dawn did makes sense.
@@TheRealCaptainGold LMFAO no I am not, I have been stabbed and didn't react that way so no not overselling it, you don't know Jack bud, if a pedophile molests a child because they are unable to control their sexual behavior towards said child that still makes them a pedophile so someone unable to exercise self control to a stab wound and fires a gun is still a murderer hence why its called man slaughter, whether she meant to or not it still happened, therefore Rick and the group had every right to kill her.
perfect
YES 100 percent
How dare dawn have reflexes that she can’t control!
0:30 apparently, Carl did something to get kicked off the show. No one will really common on what it was. But the rumors is that he had bad onset behavior. My favorite episode, in the entire series. Comes from this arc. Consumed my most watched episode.
That's dumb, bro said he wanted to go to college and couldn't because he got put on a show that lasted a little longer than it should have.
@@ih8theantichrist well I don’t know that’s just what I remember. Being said. Pretty dumb to kill him off. If he just needed to go to college. Why not pull a rick or Maggie?, Negan, Alicia. Why kill him off considering his important to the story
@@ih8theantichrist that’s just what I remember being said at the time
@@ih8theantichrist I’m surprise he didn’t. Higher, a on set tutor.
@@ih8theantichrist or is that not a thing
The video should been titled "is Dawn guilty for killing Beth?".
Because you completely skipped over all the terrible shit that dawn did, beforehand. I agree that killing Beth in self-defense doesn't make her guilty, but you seriously failed to mention everything else that Dawn did that makes her a guilty person.
It was pretty clear that I was just talking about her killing of Beth…
@@TheRealCaptainGoldnot really. If you have to make a disclaimer and pin it to the top of the comments, I don't think it's that obvious.
I'd say just edit the title, that'd fix the miscommunication issue.
@@soulresonance4073
You’d be surprised. Some people aren’t very bright. That said, most people seem to have gotten it. I’m sorry you didn’t. 🤷🏻♂️
Beth was super annoying when she started singing. And her episode at the cabin was trash. So yeah, happy days thx to the cop.
I bet you kick your next door neighbours flowers when they first bloom in spring
@@dorkbrandon4422 that has nothing to do with my opinion about Beth. Can't I just say what I want without being judged?? Unbelievable how sensitive are people nowadays... 🙄
@eifersuchtkim669
DAFFODILS LIVES MATTER !!!! 🪧