Should Football Have A Sin-Bin?
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2022
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Sometimes a foul is worthy of more than a yellow, but not quite a red. What if professional football had sin-bins? What affect would having a player depart the pitch for a period of time?
Seb Stafford-Bloor explores the idea of sin-bins in football, and whether it’d work. Illustrated by Craig Silcock
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#sinbin #premierleague - Sport
The main thing after playing rugby for years was that deterrence from your own team. If the whole team is going to be punished by you dissenting to the referee, I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve been told to shut up and move away. It definitely works and the self policing of teams works better. Letting your team down is a far greater deterrent than pretty much anything else.
And anything that goes wrong for one's team when they're off the field is automatically blamed on the player being off the field at that time.
In the amateur and at most semi pro Central Football leagues in NZ there was a sin bin trial.
Only for dissent to the referee. Yellow card, and 10 minutes with 10 players. All senior mens football from regional semi pro teams, to organised sunday (saturday) league.
Seems to work pretty well
Also nowadays especially in union now that the nrl has implemented something similar, there is a call for something less severe than a yellow and 10 minutes, because of how card happy the game has begun and referees feeling that normal penalties are good enough, they instantly resort to a yellow card for stuff that that just doesn’t deserve being sent off for 10. I myself really want to see union implement an “on report” system that like the nrl so a ref can just say “that’s an illegal move above threshold that I can just bat an eye to it, you are on report” and be done with it
In Gaelic games there is a black card for a cynical professional foul, often the type done to prevent counter attacks, especially late in the game by the team that is leading. You get ten minutes in the sin-bin for it. I think it's worth debating in football now as prem teams in particular are notorious for tactical fouling to prevent counter attacks. They are literally taking turns to take a yellow for the team, in order to close out the game. Yellow cards clearly aren't enough for these instances.
Black cards would actually be great in football. Along with giving vat the ability to punish diving.
It'd definitely slow down the game for a couple weeks but ultimately lead to a faster and fairer game in the long run which is what I think we all want.
@@IVIRnathanreilly Diving definitely needs punishing. The main proponent at the moment is Saka. He is not being called out on it because of the previous World Cup furore.
I think black cards would better suit international football, as one of the few issues with the black card in GAA is that it is often abused by players (mainly Dubs) who go down when they feel a tug on the jersey in an effort to get the tackler in the sin bin. The different tackling style in football means there is far less tolerance for jersey pulls.
Good call
Was just going to comment about the black card before seeing this. The current black card is great, the old version where the player is sent-off but you can bring somebody on wasn't great and people were too happy to take the black card and be replaced by a fresher player.
In my opinion, the issue of yellow card severeness is getting much more visibility due to the 5-substitite rule. A player has much less to worry about when making a risky or cynical tackle knowing the cost to substitute them is significantly lower now.
Adding the fact that one needs to collect 5 yellow cards to miss a game further disincentivices non-starting 11 players to take any caution when making such a tackle. Ex. Harry Maguire against Arsenal picking up a yellow a minute after he was subbed on.
To be fair Maguire should have been shown a second yellow in that game.
That’s a really good point about the 5 subs rule. I’d be against an Orange card but a yellow card is definitely not as big a deal with 5 subs
Well there’s your solution. An orange card costs your team one substitution.
objectively, the gap between yellow and red is very big. in my opinion, it is wayy too big. getting a yellow card isn't a big deal. at all. the best players really only save it tactically in the biggest matches to stop the biggest chances from the opposing side. besides that, it really isn't a big deal. Red cards are also ridiculously harsh. down a man for the rest of the game and you're out the next game too. This discourages refs from handing them out when some tackles are reckless/bad or when players dive bc it is so harsh. sure a challenge can be awful but imagine its reckless, not super dangerous, and in the 13th minute. You're going to punish one side for the next 77 minutes because of it? no probably not so you'll hand the player a yellow. an orange card would bridge the gap to punish poor sportsmanship/recklessness when necessary. Put one side down for 7 minutes not the whole game.
@@hypie88 it's not beautiful at all though. We allow it because it's what we have seen and know. Just because we have accepted it doesn't mean there isn't a better way to go about it
average arsenal fan:
“objectively” - Refereeing is a matter of SUBjectivity: an interpretation; an opinion; an expression of discretion and tolerance.
7 minutes out? Players will start doing it to get a rest.
30 minutes out is needed
Being one man down is not that much of an disadvantage compared to some minutes of rest for a player. Just look at statistics and analytics about red cards and their influence...
These kind of rules should/could be trialed in the league cup. A different competition that is taken somewhat seriously but ultimately doesn't matter compared to the premier league/fa cup
i agree, I trial should be taken. I can see that teams who have a sin binned player would park the bus for 10 mins and wait it out and then the game may get stale and ruin the flow.
@Red eyed Wolf Nah, as an Arsenal fan, I know exactly how red cards, especially absolutely unwarranted ones, can ruin a game.
@Red eyed Wolf everything can be improved.
@@alexisosorio8871 cry more 😭
@Red eyed Wolf yep it did. There are problems of course, this is especially expected considering var is very young. But it makes the game fairer, if my team lost a competition to an offside goal I would be distraught.
There’s a huge amount of middle ground between yellow card and red card, there’s countless examples where someone dives into a tackle a bit recklessly but wins the ball, or yanks a player to the ground by the shirt to stop them breaking away a la Chiellini on Saka where you’re thinking something should be done but a yellow card seems like they’ve gotten away with it and a red is too much. It could also work well as a punishment for players already on yellow cards who commit a petty offence that is technically a yellow card that referees don’t like to give second yellow cards for (prodding the ball away while the other team is trying to set up for a quick freekick for example). Unfortunately I think it would take a lot of nuance to keep in the sport and those things don’t tend to be enjoyed.
Prodding the ball away is always a yellow card, no matter of the player in question already having seen one or not. Those are grown men who act like children. I say let them have the consequences of their actions.
Same for tactical fouls. A clearly tactical foul is always a yellow card (or at least so it should be). But that goes without consideration towards whether the foul itself merrits a yellow card. I would say, make it additive: Is the foul itself worth a yellow card? If so, show him a yellow card. Was it a tactial foul? If yes, then show him a second yellow. Was it a brutal foul that would justify a red card but also a tactical foul? That means red + yellow (which is without further effect for the match itself but counts towards the total number of yellow cards a player received throughout the season and to when he has to sit out the next match).
@@lonestarr1490 The problem is that refs generally don't like to give second yellows out for those kinds of situations, and announcers and fans often complain that a second yellow wasn't yellow enough for a second yellow. If those kinds of offenses resulted in sin binning instead then referees will be more likely to use the punishments, then the players will be more likely to self-enforce on their teammates not to be idiots in the first place. Because football right now has a quantum leap between "a warning that is almost entirely inconsequential" directly to "massive game changing call" the punishments are doled out a lot less. Just telling the refs to throw people out of the game and show more red cards isn't actually what produces more watchable games or what fans (or even refs) want.
Thats the art of defending
In danish lower leagues it's like this, if a player is given a yellow card he's sent off the pitch for 10 minutes. Everyone i know want's this system in pro-football.
A team can use a lot of "unconsequential" yellow cards for professional freekicks to stop counterattacks against a close rival in the tabel or in a tournament final, and the only thing of consequense is some penaltypoints, that down the line can result in a one game suspension. The 10 minute rule gives a instant disadvantage to the fouling player and his team, and most important of all, the team which have lost a opportunity if let's say it was a stopped counterattack, is the team that get's the benefit of the opposing player being sent off for 10 minutes!
As a Danish lower league ref, I absolutely love this rule. It makes the games so much easier to police and actually makes players realize that there’s consequences for their actions.
I know FIFA is trialing a similar system right now in the lower American leagues, so maybe it’ll find it’s way into the professional game
Well then it makes it even harder to defend.. i think that rule alone will change the whole dynamics of football..
@@alone2break Isn't that the point? To punish the offenders by putting their teams on the backfoot? Yes, it will change the dynamics of the game, bit it will change for the better IMO
now we just need extensive punishment for diving, and we're all good
Is it still allowed to re-field a player that has been subbed off? It's been a while since I played myself.
@@FrttMs Depends on the country and league level. In Denmark at least it’s used for the five lowest tiers of the adult leagues
I've always advocated for a Sin bin. A yellow for intentionally bringing someone down to stop a goal scoring opportunity should have a greater punishment then just a yellow and being able to stay on the pitch.
5 or 10 minutes playing with 10 men seems a reasonable way of giving proper compensation for the team that got a chance robbed.
There are only a handful of opportunities in a game for some teams to get a run on at goal yet it is so easy for someone to be brought down, even sometimes quite violently, ala Saka at the euros
Your point about dissent being a sin binnable offence should be brought in as well. It does and will 100% help with dissent
Agreed. Modern teams are relying too much on tactical fouls, and it's already so hard to break them down.
@neonuer Yeah cause the ball is going to turn into a hand egg aswell...
Some parts of Australia use sin bin for consent in their competitions. Application of the rule is super inconsistent though and the rules are clunky to say the least.
@neonuer American football doesn't have sin bins
@@michaelngiam6270 Pep sweating at the thought
I am a ref in Bremen, Germany. In the youth leagues (until under 17s) , a 5 minute sin bin penalty can be given. While I was still reffing in this age group I found it to be particularly useful - especially when players needed to "calm down" after, for example, aggressive fouls.
I would greet the 5min sin bin penalty in the adult leagues too - especially for dissent (which is often a problem).
When in these games, did you ever happen to see players trying to abuse this mechanic? For example to waste time when winning, or committing fouls in rotating fashion in order to avoid being sent off, or using it to give a tired player the chance to rest in the box for a few minutes before rejoining the game ?
I would love to hear your opinion on if 5 minutes is "enough" or if you think a 15-min sent-off and a sub-ban is more effective or not
?
@@G_Okr No, players could never be sure that I would only give a time penalty and not a red card. (its like a dark yellow card - so just less than a red).
As it effects the whole team, I doubt any coach would allow his/her players to show this behavior "to rest".
@@reminiti8515 5 mins, in youth football is enough - it achieves what it is meant to - allowing the fired up player to "cool down". I think for the senior level 5 mins would be too short as a team can easily compensate being down to 10men for 5mins
For youth games thats one thing. But in adult games I continuously experience how tactically they operate and another step before the red card would just make the problem worse.
I think part of the reason sin bins work in some other sports is partly because they're generally higher scoring sports. A team that feels outmatched in football can already have a tendency to play in a way that's less fun for people to watch. Teams just shutting up shop for ten minutes might mean periods of the game that are less fun to watch.
Ice hockey is high scoring? Also their implementation of offside is far more sensical than football uses it
@@damianstarr1696 more high scoring then your average football game
@@MrBlue11900 I'll give you that but it's probably not as far off as you think. NHL games average around 5 goals per game. In this PL season alone we've seen 9 games with 5 goals in already and we're barely halfway through september
Losing one man in a 5 men team is far worse than in a 11 men team
Teams can easily adjust and hold on in football whilst having one less player in the team
@@damianstarr1696 5 goals in NHL would still be nearly double the EPL total for 2016-2021of 2.74. 6 tries per rugby match was average for the last world cup (plus kicking). Water polo is famously high scoring. I feel the general point stands that football is amongst the lowest scoring game of spectator sports as a general rule.
Issue with sin bins in football is the continuous clock - any other sport with it (eg rugby, ice hockey) has a clock that stops when there is a break of play. In football it would be too easy for players to exaggerate injuries/manager make subs and waste time until the sin bin is over
I addressed this in other replys
10 minutes in play. 4th official would stop the clock
@@spirestocksnotification6710 So copy and paste it here. Nobody cares enough about your opinion to go and search for your other comments
@@samshorto5433 If you don't care about the opinion then you wouldn't read it if it was in front of your you fill in the blank. I didn't want to put the same comment in X number of spaces, as if my opinion was worthy of replicating especially if no one cares to read, just takes up space
You could implement a stop clock for the sin bin. In the case in injury, or substitutions the 10 min sin bin clock would stop counting, but the ref's 90 min clock would keep going as normal. It's a bit weird, but, better than changing the game timer and the injury time system (I'm not keen on those as such, but let's not have too many changes in one go).
Great video and great production quality! You guys have come a long way over the last few years!!
The biggest one I still think of is Chiellini on Saka in the Euro final. I understand the ref's decision as he wasn't technically last man and it wasn't quite violent enough to warrant a red alone. But the combination of how good of a chance that would've been and how rough the pullback was still irks me. The yellow felt so tame, the resulting free kick wasn't in a remotely dangerous part of the field and Chiellini went on to score a penalty in the shootout to rub it all in. Still upset as you can probably tell
yep, a perfect example.
I saw a photoshop where chiellini saved saka from running into the path of a subway train
You said it yourself. The free kick wasn't in a remotely dangerous position. So with the tactical foul (Tactical being the shirt pulling, with the intention of bringing him down), thats clear yellow, but not even remotely close to red. Y'all English should just stop crying.
@@Borsilive clearly ignoring the fact that it was a dangerous position at the time of the foul. No crying, just pointing at it was a frustrating but understandable incident
you will get thrown out of a NFL game for doing that, idk how its not a red card in soccer.
I watch a lot of step 5 and 6 football in England where they have sin bins for dissent. When I’ve seen it happen players go back to the bench and do warm ups with the subs so they’re ready to come back on in ten minutes.
Their teams basically go into park the bus mode for ten minutes until they come back on and once or twice I’ve seen a team get boosted by returning to full strength after a sin bin is over
We have it in the Danish lower leagues. It is a brilliant piece of work. Really annoying but still a good penalty for a "minor " offence.
I can't see why it hasn't been implemented in the higher leagues.
I personally don't understand why there is so much animosity in football to stopping the clock when the ball isn't in play. Cause my god it is a quick fix to a lot of issues that currently exist in football.
Because it creates one of those stopping and starting nightmare sports where you never know when the damn thing will end.
An American Football game lasts 3h12 minutes with about 11 minutes of control of the ball. I doubt it'll be as bad but keeping football at its pace is important and a 60 minute stop clock would just let people dawdle. It also wouldn't solve time-wasting which is often about just holding onto the ball in a boring manner.
I've not seen a good argument against it yet, time wasting in football is out of control, its meant to be a entertaining sport up against peoples ever shortening attention span due to mobile phones/technology and this isn't helped at all by current system.
@@mnm1273 think you'll find American football is set up this way, they intentionally add time outs and even commercial breaks! Football is totally different set up and is suffering regardless. Everton time wasting from the 1st minute last year was why we need to stop the clock, as ball not even in play 30 minutes anyway
Stop the clock for "injuries" If the player did not leave the field for the "injury" then after X injuries, each fake injury, there is a 5min sin bin at the same time for each person and each occurrence. As an example: For each fake [they didnt leave field] injury you stop clock, after 3 fakes, by two players, player with 1 fake goes off for field for 5 minutes and player with 2 fakes goes off for 10 minutes at the same time. This would stop fakes, i.e. there would only be 2 fakes per game and the clock would stop for each one
It's pretty straightforward with goalie offences. Like in ice hockey, the goalie themself doesn't sit in the sin bin, but an outfield player is chosen to take their place.
That would turn the whole concept of personal punishment in football topsy-turvy.
@@lonestarr1490 Sure does. This whole "orange card" idea is pretty radical.
@@lonestarr1490 Well, isn't this orange card meant to be more of a collective punishment? The goalkeeper could still be on a yellow card after this.
@@lonestarr1490 Yes, but it would have the same effect, since no goalie would want to send their own player to the penalty box on their behalf
@@raducora7159 That and because the goalie was the one to send their own player to the penalty box, the rest of the team is going to be even more upset that they took a penalty
I love this type of theoretical video when it comes to Tifo's content. I hadn't ever thought of the "cynicality" of the use behind sin binning a player and time wasting. I was simply in favor of it, but this nuance brings an interesting conversation to the topic. Great stuff y'all
solution: timer stopping when the ball is out/not being played like in most sports
Really well presented topic once again :)
Imagine the time wasting and fake injuries that would incur during the 10 minute power play
And then the pundits complain of time wasting and then the FA makes time wasting punishable by an orange card and the cycle continues
Simple. In this case if an injury occurs during a sin bin, stop the clock, or don't count that time toward the sin bin, if injury takes 8 min, sin bin extends to 18 min
That said, it would be hilarious to watch Graeme Sounness squirm every time someone said "power play!"
Thank you. The tactical foul that is also a brutal enough foul to warrant a yellow card is such a pet hate of mine, and this foul was such a textbook example. I do not find it wrong to give a double yellow and send a player off for this type of foul, but if a sin-bin shall be the solution, I will be alright with it. As long as players can no longer get away with the cynical/brutal-foul combination.
It should be a modifier on top of a foul like dangerous or denial of a goalscoring opportunity.
So basically guaranteeing a yellow up the pitch and a red when it's reckless or stopping a goal.
It seems like there'd be a lot more reds but ultimately, people would just have to stop doing it and play football instead.
As it stands it's unsportsmanlike and just not in the spirit of the game.
i'd like to see this experimented more, i think placement of the sin bins for each team should be directly infront of the opposing teams supporters section that would be an even extra layer of deterrent.
I have thought about this for awhile and i truly believe it would make the game much more watchable
At grassroots level a sin bin is vital to help reduce dissent
I think they should do this anytime a player fakes an injury. The player Automatically has to sit out 5 minutes. For medical team to make sure the player is okay.
😂😂😂 that's 👍🏻
🤣
Yes, stop the clock, and if player does not leave the field [ he wasnt really injured], then after X fakes per team, take each player that faked an injury and take them all off the field at once. Yes, you will see ONE player doing all the faking then, but for each fake in addition to the clock stoppage, player goes off for 5 min per fake. How was it a fake? He didn't leave field with assistance and he was sprinting 30 seconds later
I would love if football VAR trialled a field hockey-like VAR. Each team captain can ‘call’ for play to be analysed by VAR a limited number of times. It makes the usage of VAR tactical and reduces the stoppage time it typically creates
Yes, the hockey video referral system isn’t perfect but it is one of the better systems
Thinking about the keeper, in rugby if one of the front row (1-3) gets sinbinned, you can bring on a replacement and sub someone else off if there's a scrum (as the scrum is too dangerous for the front row if they're not properly trained) - this doesn't count as a formal sub and once the sin bin is over the player can come back on and the replacement is reversed
I know this is just for player safety but it might make sense for keepers in football - if they get sinbinned you could replace an outfield player with the sub keeper for the duration of the sin bin
Should orange cards have football is the real question here
i dont get it
@@islander7582 you dont get it because they havent trialed it yet
@@islander7582 read it the other way around
I’d make of blue for colour blind people
It is quite interesting in that sense that field hockey and bandy which are sports with eerily similar rules as football have that and have it as 10 minutes. It is one of the few changes needed. Plus a stop and start time clock is needed at the same time.
Field hockey has green cards before yellow, which usually mean only a 2 minute sin bin. This is too short for a slower game like football but is such a good idea and adds the interesting concept of ‘we have X minutes to take advantage of our advantage’
Football always seems so slow to change for the better. This + self take free kicks + actual punishment for kicking balls away/obstructing free kicks would make the game so much better
What is a "self take free kick"?
@@lonestarr1490 he means "self pass". Just means you can also run with the ball yourself for a free kick.
@@innocebronkhorst431 Ah, I see.
What I don't see is why that would be a change for the better. What is the issue with free kicks?
@@lonestarr1490 just about speeding up the game - anti time wasting measure more than anything else
As a primary ice hockey fan I am quite intrigued by a sin-bin in football. However it might be logistically weird having the player run or walk to the box and back again.
Before sin bins, we need a time stop rule.
Time wasting is outrageous.
We would need a smaller clock then. Football games have 40-60 mins playing time.
@@arya6085 agreed, do 2x30 minutes
@@dissect123 it would be difficult though. A game could be 90 mins long, it could also be double that.
@@arya6085 Doesn’t really matter, there’s always a ton of analysis before and after games, plenty of cushion
they have a version of this in US high school football/soccer where you have to sub out a player who gets a yellow for a certain amount of time
It would be interesting to see how teams would handle being one man down for let’s say 5 minutes, in ice hockey when you’re 5v4, possession is everything, most of the time the team with the power play usually doesn’t take more than 2 shoots during the penalty, I would think that in football it could lead to some extremely tense pressure by the attackers as well, would be interesting to watch
I mean it's gonna be the same as a red card late in the game
Idk. Football is already a slow game. For some tactics, they're already playing with 10 men (Minus the strikers. Doesn't defend, never join build up.) Most of the time, being 1 man down doesn't necessarily mean you're losing. It just make it harder to win instead. That team could just park the bus and those 5 minutes will end with nothing happening. Make it 15-20 minutes instead and that would have good impact. Anything lower than 10 minutes is too short unless its late game.
It did happen in the pilot scheme with a goalkeeper getting win-binned unfortunately another player would have to take their place off the field of play however any more dissent the goalkeeper would be removed from the field of play
I think they should do it then add provisions for how long a substitution, throw in, free kick or other stoppage is allowed to take. Also, if a player is injured and it takes a certain amount of time to get them back up right they should be required to be taken out of the game permanently then add that time back at the end of the half
If this rule comes to football Jose mourinho and Diego simeone s sides will be unstoppable.
I'm glad Rugby League has a sin bin. In the NRL (Australia's top RL comp), the sin-binned player goes typically goes to the dressing shed for 10 minutes
Maybe a solution to the goalie problem could be they stay on the field but they can’t leave the penalty box at all (which puts the team at a tactical disadvantage going forward and defensively). While orange card is good in theory, it might add another layer of complexity in an era where there is already so much distrust and confusion with VAR.
In ice hockey if the goalie gets a penalty someone else on the team has to serve it. I think the same thing would work in football with the team having to select an outfield player to send to the penalty box. It avoids all the issues about who is going to be in goal during the power play while still giving the other team a man advantage.
To combat time wasting, if a player gets two yellow cards for simulation/time wasting in a season they should miss the next match. It is a deliberate action to literally play less football and wouldn’t be too hard to officiate. More jeopardy than just a regular yellow for time wasting which goalkeepers get a couple a season. Now if they’re on a yellow already for time wasting they are forced to play quicker in future games or risk missing the next game
Maybe it could be an orange card
Sin bin for an obvious fake dive, a bad tactical foul, or these orange card type offenses. Make them sit out for 10 minutes. It could be a fun experiment to try in a preseason game
Regarding the keeper being committing a sin bin foul, in north american ice hockey, when a goaltender commits a penalty they shall stay in-play; however one of their teammates who was on the ice at the time of the infraction, must “serve” their penalty for them. I’m curious to see how that particular implementation would play out on the pitch
Probably one of the forwards serves the penalty and the rest of the team try to play solidly mostly working to curtail the opponents rather than attack themselves
I mean, why isnt a stop clock already used in association football? Its clear extra time is often comically inconsistent, why not simply stop the clock and then couple it with the orange card? It would not fully get rid of the issues but it would definitely make it much better.
But with handball you can only give 3 yellow cards each team.
And a 3 strikes and you are out but it also promote slowing down play and that is something to think about.
Also a role is if you have 2 yellow cards you get a automatic time penalty so maybe they can think about a 3 yellow card and you have red.
In Bavaria in youth footbal there has been for quite a while the punishment-system: yellow - 5 minutes - red. If a player, who already got a yellow card, commits another bookworthy fould, he gets a 5 minute punishment. And if a player who already was sent off for 5 minutes, commits a bookworthy foul he gets a red card. The beauty is that the referee can directly give 5 minutes just like he can directly give a red card.
The time problem: In Futsal we already have stopped time and it is the better system imho. A solution in between could be that the stopage time is stopped publicly. I already have a refs watch which gives a peep-sound when I stop it. Players usually ask what that means, whether it is already half-time. I explain it to them and the result is that I hardly ever get complaints about the opponent wasting time, because they hear that it is being counted for stopage time. It would be a technical challenge to develop smart watches for refs, which then stop the time the player has to wait to come in, but one that can be solved. Same goes for public stopping of stopage time. Then the question what counts as time waste and what not would get public (which would be a good thing) and time wasting behavior would reduce
I'm sure you've been working on this video for some time, but it's ironic that a video about expanding referees' authority and powers comes at a time when a succession of high-profile errors seem to be sending public sympathy for refs diving lower and lower.
Look up the blue cards tested in a 2000s Brazilian championship called 'Campeonato Paulista'.
Surprised that wasn't mentioned in this video since it's the closest applied form to a professional league I've ever learned of.
I got an idea that could work with the use of water/rehydration breaks.
Instead of 45 minutes, we play 50 minutes half, but split into 25 minutes quarters. Quarter breaks much like the water breaks now, lasting only a minute or two.
Then any “sin bin” foul, you return only after the quarter ends. However, if the foul is after the 10th minute, sit out of the next quarter as well. VAR will decide the foul time, while referee on field will decide whether the offense is “sin-bin”, with support from VAR as well.
Solve the problem of having to time the sin-bin player, integrates into the current practices, and not overly punish players and teams as well.
Seeing as how the number of substitutions increased, I'd prefer Orange Cards not to be a Sin Bin, but a forced substitution (if you have no subs left, well, down to 10 man).
Using Trippier as an example, he'd be sent off from the rest of game, but a substitute gets to play so the new punishment would not be "one man down", as it wasn't a violent foul or a number of them, but a (supposedly) drop in quality, as the substitute is not a starter for a reason. And while big teams do have better squads in comparison, I think small teams will get more of an advantage from this as they are the ones usually dropping down to 10 men from situations like this, and keeping their side at eleven should make them more competitive. Also, coaches won't be chaning half of their team with easiness.
This could also change the dynamics of second yellow cards (it's not the same to receive 2 yellows from risky challenges than for... a protest and a goal celebration), but thay may mud the waters as well.
Would like to see a video on Boehlys north v south proposal, cheers
The time wasting between the ins and outs would be immense. We already see a lot of minutes of extra time, and this is going to crank it up to eleven. The rules need to specify the time players will have to get in and out of the stadium, since all 22 players and substitutes can theoretically get a time out. Alternatively, a fixed click can be introduced as a package alongside the penalty box. All sports that use penalty boxes, also use clocks that stop between phases in order to prevent time wasting.
It could be a mandatory full substitution. A yellow stays in the game . An Orange Is done for the day with replacement. A red gets no replacement.
Chiellini caught a ball with his hands to stop the counter attack while playing against Real Salt Lake this past season and I've been thinking about that moment a lot
I think football should copy some elements of field hockey. For serious fouls green (2 min sin bin), Yellow (5 or 10 mins depending on severity) and Red cards can be issued by the ref. Time only starts when player is seated on "bin".
Interesting idea
In the Netherlands on grassroots level, we have the same rule where a yellow card equals 10 minutes penalty
@3:40 Surely if a player was sin binned twice he is technically sent off (two yellows+ plus sin bin) and no substitute allowed.
The Orange 10min sin bin surely is used in addition to a yellow to be a position between yellow and red not a replacement for yellow...
I have suggested this idea for years. Introduce a sin-bin...
I think an orange card would be good. As long as they rearrange the rules so that two cardable offences no longer equals a red, but three, so you progress through the cards, yellow first, then orange with a 10 min binning, then red and off for the remainder of the match for the third. With straight reds only being reserved for striking an opposing player, and straight oranges applying for tactical fouls or overly badgering the ref. A 5 min binning could even apply to yellow cards?
ref gives one yellow where he should've given the red and now all of a sudden we're talking about some sin-bins...
Football really needs to have stop clocks implemented. I think that's the most important change that needs to happen as soon as possible. It will take away so much incentive to stall time, which everyone finds annoying, and it allows more time to be used for important things that can take up a lot of time, like taking care of injured players and such.
How about no? That way you'd have games last 3 hours, it's what already happens with futsal
@@purplebutterfly314 There are ways you could handle an "injury" If it appears to be an actual injury where the player needs assistance getting off the field, you could stop the clock in this case or come up with a maximum amount of clock stoppage due to X or Y is M minutes say 10-20 min, i.e. a reasonable percentage of game
@@purplebutterfly314 It will never be that long at all. We can run pilots to see what works best to keep the time under control. For example, it might be too much to stop the clock after every single throw-in, but every corner, goal kick and fouls are stopped. We can always experiment with what ends up being reasonable and it seems to me that stopping the clock when there's a player injured on the field or when the VAR is checking a decision for a long time that that is reasonable to stop the clock and keep the same amount of playtime going later.
@@Glitch_II good ideas, experiment with reasonable approach to solve just the few devastating flaws of the game
What people fail to understand is that time wasting isn't only about the actual time, it's about killing momentum. A team under pressure will still waste time
I always felt there should be something other than yellow/red card. Was wondering if some cumulative # of fouls would equate to a yellow card. This seems even better.
football should try a field hockey system. that being. green 2 mins off/ yellow 5 mins off/ red early shower. the benefits would be more variety. green is normaly shown for a tactical foul. and a yellow is shown a clumsy foul.
High school soccer in the US does something similar where if you get a yellow you are required to come out until the next deadball
It will just bring even more subjectivity in the game and cause more arguments and debates
In switzerland the youth level matches are ruled like this since ~20 years
Instead of punishment based on time the punishment should be running several times around the pitch before joining back in. This would solve alot of problems.
1. Players would stay warm and so their would be less injuries following the reentry
2. The player could decide how fast he runs, effecting his performance on the pitch after reentry. Also deciding how long he is missing
3. Wasting time while having someone in the sin-bin would be less of an issue since the player is paying with energy.
4. It is more entertaining than just letting someone wait. Running rounds fast to rejoin could spark emotions and would give this game a positive new twist.
I am sure there are alot more pros and cons but i think, that punishment based on time would create more problems then solve.
I like the idea of the sin-bin, but I don't think tactical fouls are a big issue. I am a defender myself so I might be biased, but in my mind a tactical foul adds some, well, tactics, as you have to choose your moments wisely and use your situational awareness. It might nog be the most sportsmanlike part of soccer, but I find it much less disturbing than stuff like kicking the ball away when a foul is called or diving (mostly because despite being banned they almost never get punished with a yellow so folks just keep doing it). Although a tactical foul might not always be "fun", it's usually just smart play and since players are careful not to get a red card they are almost never dangerous.
think we should have sending outs, like hockey, 2-3 minutes on the side line. you could get noraml yellow card, noraml red, but then a middle where u are tken off for a minutes or so
I think the same should be true for fouls inside the box as well. A non call is too lenient, and a penalty is oftentimes too harsh (perfect example is the foul on from a Juventus player on a Benfica player that wasn't even facing the goal and gave Benfica a penalty on Tuesday). There should be an in-between area where it's just a free kick inside the box.
No change is needed, the way it is played is just fine as players can only take one yellow and all of them lead to accumulation toward a suspension. Besides, there would still be plenty of controversy in terms of the gap between yellow and orange and between orange and red, it would only convolute decisions more, bad idea
sabe
Sin bin is a nice idea but doesn't work very well with the current running clock system. A semi-effective time system would be better, a bit like in rugby.
4:10 simply have an out field player serve the penalty like in hockey. Its even more of a deterrent for goalies, since no goalie will want to send their own teammate to the penalty box
What if they re-reclassified tactical fouls and time wasting yellows to not just count towards the 5/10/15 for suspensions? Make them also their own category (together) and make it more harsh. Something like 2/4/6 or 3/5/7. You could also increase the suspensions to 2/3/5 games instead of 1/2/3. I would think that most players don't want to get suspended.
I think the only real in-between would be a "sub a player immediately" card.. So the individual is sent off and would get a suspension but the overall loss to the team is lessened
In a State in Germany Theres a time penalty which is exactly what you’ve described. Also there’s no red card after a yellow card but this time penalty
No, especially now that we have 5 subs. A player with a yellow card is a possible advantage if the other team is attacking on his side, so it's something that gives managers something to worry about, both attacking or defending. Tactical foul is a yellow to permit a more fluid game, totally necessary to have a interesting game and not a foul every 30 seconds.
Indoor matches have this also, I do like this more because you don't miss games
This was a trial? It still seems to be in place in the kids games that I see. We had one sin-binning last 17 minutes because there were two separate stoppage causing injuries during the period.
Works very well in rugby but particularly hockey where there are three cards amd 2 types of sinbinning.
Green card is 2m in the bin
Yellow is 5-10
Red is off
Has totally cleaned up the game, players now avoid fouling and there can be no anti-hockey tactics used as teams will be punished by umpires who also want the game to flow
3:57 In ice hockey, if a goalie is given a penalty, instead of the goalie going into the penalty box, one of the other players on the ice would go into the penalty box. Maybe something like that would work in football but idrk.
Very interesting
It would just add another unnecessary layer of complexity imo
Who’s going to keep track of sin bin time for example? Specially if more than 1 player is on sin bin
Will teams use this as a means to rest players?
can you get sent to the sin bin more than once in a match?
Pundits will forever argue whether a faul should really have been a sin bin, yellow or red
Etc
Well those are all common in ice hockey and it works fine there. Sure football is a different kind of sport and introducing sin bins would change the game quite a bit but overall they might be good for the game
@@Jansk1h you are wrong
In order:
4th Official
Resting players is nowhere near as important as the tactical disadvantage of being down a player.
You could probably make it escalating: 2nd offense is longer, 3rd offense is upgraded to red, etc.
Pundits already argue about fouls now, so that wouldn't be any different.
How about instead of a penalty box to force the team to substitute the player?
Does a player in the sin bin offer any physical advantage joining the field after a rest?
Does being a man down for any length of time relate to any real disadvantage for the team? Couldn't the defending team change tactics to stifle the opposition as best they can, trying to avoid set pieces?
Would this encourage a less exciting spectacle?
Is it April 1 and I've been asleep for 8 months?
I think you would the Ability to Stop the Clock like in Rugby to go with a Sin Bin otherwise teams would milk it until time ran out
The indoor league that I play in occasionally here in the United States has a 3 card System. There is a blue, yellow, and red card. A blue card can be given for Intentional fouls or even cumulative fouls (For example your team accumulates 5 fouls in one half) and results in a 2 minute stay in the penalty box for the player while their team plays a man short. A yellow card is a reserved for dangerous fouls and other similar infractions if you would tipically see for a yellow. A Red card is unchanged. I believe The yellow card is a 5 minute penalty for your team.
why is football not using the stop clocks? we literally have a referee in var room doing absolutely nothing, why cant he stop the clock everytime the games not being played? like teams taking forever to take a corner. this would stop all the drama with the addon time
It makes sense. The Trippier case was the perfect example. "Tactical fouls" shouldn't warrant a red unless truly dangerous, but they are incredibly anti-football and shouldn't be dismissed like they are right now
Anyone else think tactical fouls should be a red and not yellow or, in this case, something in between? It takes just *seconds* for a counter attack to become a clear goal-scoring opportunity, the denial of which _is_ a straight red card.
I like the idea but only if the orange card is to punish dissent, not to tactical fouls.
I’ve advocated for a system similar to this for a long time. I clearly remember the tipping point for me personally. The CL final 2006 between Barcelona and Arsenal. I had no allegiance to either team, but was just super excited to see a great game of football surrounded by a bunch of my friends. 18 minutes in and Arsenal were down a man, and pretty much all my excitement for the game had evaporated.
I’ve always liked the idea of a 30 minute sin-bin for a red card. And upside to this (I think), is how these changes within the game could end up having major momentum shifts from one moment to the other. Playing 10vs11 for 30 minutes, and then getting your 11th man back into the game would be such a morale boost.
That was a clear red though. Even if there was an orange card, that was a red. Blatant DOGSO
@@hypie88 he referred to a game that happened 16 years ago 🤡
Suggestion would be experiment with length of time as a percentage of game, 9 min, 18 min, 27 min, etc where there should be a definitive advantage but 30 min might be too long
I don't know about a sin bin, but in order to clamp down on tacticals, I would propose an uncontested free kick from the arc for X number of bookings. A PK of sorts. Kind of like team fouls in basketball.
Unrelated!!
But the change I'd always wanted in football is the points system...where a team that wins takes 3 points from a team they just beat and the team that just lost gets deducted those points. And draws still says the same.
It would create a more competitive league system...like there is no dead game even if a team is far ahead...the team behind it might gain ground if the lose because they will be deducted those 3 points rather than just staying the same when the lose. Just my thoughts
that's probably going a bit far - effectively making 6 points for games between games between teams at the top or between those at the bottom effectively worth 12 points! That's a 3rd of the points many teams at the bottom get all season! And of course some leagues (I wanna say Major League Soccer) have tried to have penalty or halfway line shoot outs to allow teams to gain an extra point after a draw.
Why not allow every team 3 Joker cards per season? That would double their points tally in a particular game (obviously play it before the match)
Worth experimenting with number of points, per the 1 reply, you have to watch the overall differential effect per game, 6 points and as he said 12 point differentials may be too much
I think this sounds like a really bad idea. Football already suffers from few goals compared to other sports, and sending players off more regularly would make the short handed teams more defensive during that period. It also adds another element for the referees to keep track of, and they are having a rough time as is.
Fair point, but the original idea stated by the video is having a sin bin as a penalty for tactical fouls, often used to prevent counter attacks. Surely by employing such a scheme, such tactical fouls would be prevented and more goals could be scored, rather than less.
Football has always been a low scoring sport that's actually one of it's best parts as every goal is worth its weight in gold. I do get the point teams go defensive when they are a man down and that is generally not enjoyable.
@@sebastiano728 ah okay, well if it is for such clearly defined fouls it wouldnt be too much for the referees to handle either.
@@phineasgage8252 Argument is that referees can’t handle what they are currently dealing with anyway. But in the right hands, could be useful
I like the sin bin rule, yellow 10 min., Red card 25 min, if s third time he or she gets a yellow then be removed from the game with a black card, basically 3 strikes an you're out and also consequences for diving which is very prevalent
I think the carding should have a NBA approach
Yellow - Technical (any Infraction of the rules resulting in a corner kick for the offending team)
Red - Flagerant (deliberate contact on the offending player such as pushing resulting in a free kick for the offending team)
Black - Ejection (Taking a player out of the game for either too many fouls or bad conduct resulting in a penalty kick for the offending team)
so you are not satisfied until three players get injurdd
Yes
Think Trippier should’ve been given the red card, but via two yellow cards.
The tackle itself was at higher than average speed and would/should’ve been a yellow card regardless of where the tackle was on the pitch.
But since it was when the match was in its final stages he made a tactical foul to stop De Bruyne.
He should’ve been shown a yellow card for the tackle and a second yellow card for his tactical foul.
Both are fouls that individually are a yellow card offence.
Hockey is the sport I'm most familiar with. Two minute Power plays of one or two extra players (5 on 4, 4 on 3, 5 on 3) result in a goal about 20% of the time, so it's a significant event, though the smaller surface and faster players also matters. If a football teams plays one short for ten or fifteen minutes after a yellow card or intentional hand ball, it could make a difference. It would remove dirty play and punish teams which use dirty tactics.
In hockey power plays, a team never has less than three skaters, even if multiple penalties are being served. If a team had three penalties, only the first two would be counted down, the third's time wouldn't start counting until the first two are over. But in football, if a dirty team had to play three or four short for ten minutes and gave up multiple goals, that's their problem. That would be hilarious.
Another big difference between hockey and football is the "advantage rule". A football referee will say "no foul" if the team is still progressing towards a chance to score. In hockey, however, that's a DELAYED penalty. The team with the hurt or affected player can keep attacking until they lose possession, it goes out of bounds, or they score a goal. If they score, the penalty is nullified; otherwise, the penalty is enforced once a stoppage occurs (i.e. it's impossible for the offending team to intentionally score, though own goals sometimes happen).
1:20 - In hockey, that's called Interference (or Tripping, if it were the legs).
4:00 - Hockey goalies DON'T serve their own minor (2 minute) or major (5 minute) penalties, a teammate does. But if a goalie commits a misconduct (10 minutes or game misconduct) they are replaced.
4:50 - Hockey penalty time only counts down while the puck is in motion. Time wasting doesn't have any effect. Football would probably have to change to a straight clock (no injury time) that hockey and basketball have.