Wheel of Time show vs book: all the differences (Episode 6)
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- We are looking at episode six of the Amazon Prime show Wheel of Time and how it compares with the book, The Eye of the World by Robert Jordan. I struggled a bit with this episode - I'm really worried we have too much plot to cover in the next two episodes. And that ending has me like...???
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
00:21 - Plot changes
07:07 - My thoughts - pacing
08:37 - My thoughts - Moiraine/Suian
10:11 - My thoughts - Mat
10:32 - My thoughts - nudity
11:08 - Overall thoughts on the episode
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Hey guys - so it looks like Mat's actor left after this episode, and not at the end of the season like I thought. That seems to be the reason why Mat stays behind in this episode.
I have a lot of sympathy for the show runners for this now, as they were in a really tight spot.
Maybe he read the books too and didn't appreciate how far off they were getting. Probably not but I couldn't blame him.
I think that works in their favor with the sickness and dagger. Mat isn’t needed in fal Dara/eye in the books. He kinda is how they were changing the books, but I feel for them because they can’t change all the scenes/dialogue leading up to his unfortunate leaving.
If they leave the dagger and sickness as Mat is fully healed that would be disappointed. However I feel they are using this as he’s still sick and is going back for the dagger. Once fully healed we will get new Mat (new actor) showing the affect.
On The Siuan/Moraine relationship…in New Spring that’s how I read their relationship tbf. Seemed like Jordan wrote them as closer than friends without outright saying it…pillow friends and such.
@@av088r I read that he is big fan of the books and it was one life opportunity for him to be selected for the TV show, maybe he was displeased with the direction they were going. It is not decision made by Amazon like bad acting because actually he did amazing job unlike Perrin who has one face expression. We never learn the truth for sure, their contracts with the big studios are implacable.
@@fy4b230 I think u have it w the Mat idea. Go back for the dagger, get sick again, changes his appearance a la the Oracle in The Matrix movies. Plus this might get Fain involved again.
@@fy4b230 Yeah, I'm realizing my initial reaction was more my fault because I tended to view Moiraine as aromantic in the book...which is my own headcanon and not how she's written. The more I've thought about it, the more I realize the subtext is there.
My wife, who has not read the books, asked me "why did Loial get invited?" Because they didn't talk about the way gate being hidden at an old stedding site! Or that he must navigate. Some changes were just cutting corners on this one.
They needed to shave three-four minutes off of Aes Sedai backstory/Warder backstory and do Loial some justice.
@@Bookborn No kidding! They added so much unnecessary garbage and cut so much that was key (not to mention the alterations that completely change character arcs!)
Oh wow I didn't know it was THAT bad on missing important details. I haven't watched the show bc I don't think I could sit through it bc I'm a but of a purist.
But yeah getting rid of the entire context of Loial and his guidance being needed is absolutely baffling
I agree with you, i can forgive many of the early changes since book 1 is hard to adapt and has limited pov, but it is now getting to the point where major story beats are being changed, lore is being changed, and much of what makes the story great is being dumbed down (i.e. the tower politics). I want to like this but I gotta say, I do not like where this is headed.
lol, major story beats were changed in the first 20 seconds of E1. But yes, everything is being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Because that's what equality of outcomes (and picking up every possible human being on the planet as a watcher) requires.
@@nathanmorgan3647 ha! I had forgotten about that opening sequence….i guess I had written it off as Moiraine being an unreliable narrator. But at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if all the lore has basically been overhauled
@@Mahalleinir Oh, I am 100% convinced it has been. Rafe Judkins pretty much stated months ago that he intended to change alot because it wasn't his brand of feminism in the books, for example. They made this show not to tell Jordan's story, but to actively subvert it.
I don't have issues with changing lore due to adaptation purposes. It is just way too hard to transfer feelings, thoughts and stuff like that in tv series comparing to books. But in WOT I constantly changing source for absolutely no good reason. What does 6 episode manifests - women can't be just friends, no they need to sleep with one another in order to care. Suan can be straight, bi, lesbian - no problem, do not care. Make Gareth Breen a woman. Strong female character, but why like this? What does it give to story?
Matt was a great character. Started as a gambler, trusting that he can find the way out of any trouble that he will find himself in, but through out the books realizing that this time he might just not. And here? And don't let me start on ogirs. One unique race. One.
Main thought pumping in my brain is "Why?"
The writing in this show is bad, even ignoring the books. It's nonsensical. Characters motivations are non existent, they lack agency. Rand is a block of wood.
I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that the TV series has and will be "loosely" based on the books, that the creators, writers, and directors are going to give me whatever they want and I will accept it because I've spent 30 years of my life engrossed in this world and I will take whatever I can get. Which, I believe, is a very sad commentary on both my life and the series in general. 90% of this show so far has been "that didn't happen .. this didn't happen .. why are they doing this .. this has nothing to do with the storylines ... etc." But I will continue to watch because I have hope. And if we do not have hope, then we have nothing; which is almost what this show is.
This is the comment. This is it. This is how I feel.
The biggest issue I have with the series right now is something I saw referred to as "opportunity cost". Basically all the time spent on secondary character may pay off in the long run, but in the short term it's trading off with story and character development from the main characters. I really dislike how little screen time Rand, Perrian, Mat, and to a lesser extent Egwene are getting. They really need to be front and center - not Stepin, not Siuan (yet), not Liandrin, or Dana the Darkfriend (who at least was integrated really well).
There are so many issues with the adaptation, but the one you point out is by far the most problematic. A lot of secondary characters and side plots could be eliminated without much impact on the main story, but instead the show is delving into unimportant threads and even inventing additional ones while starving the primary group of screen time for characterization and developing plots that are central to the overall series.
It was never going to be an easy adaptation. This isn't GoT, it's a series that is much larger in both word and character count while having a much larger focus on the impact and interaction of diverse cultures. Honestly... maybe this should have been an anime instead of a live action show. I'm not someone who really cares for anime, but I think the constraints of a big budget show made it doomed to fail in one way or another.
The main character of the series is clearly Moraine and not Rand or Egwene. That’s a change but not a bat one imo.
@@Florfilm true but we've also missed out on a lot of rand like a real lot of what happens with him through out the book, we've skipped his channelling, we've skipped his getting sick from channelling, we've missed the importance of the heron marked blade and all that comes with that, and we've missed the fact he's not Tams son and 'ALL! ! !' that comes with that, we've missed the fact that by time Rand steps into Tar Valon everyone finds out who he is. So far from the series he has come across as the least likely to be the dragon Reborn, and it feels like they're going to actually change whom it is rather than have him as it. Whilst i don't mind Moiraine being the centre of the series she's coming across as nowhere near as capable as she was in the books nor as intelligent due to so many things being skipped or missed from the series for 2ndary character fleshing.
@@Florfilm No issues with Moraine's screen time at all. She's been killing it. But we need to be developing the other main characters, and the screen time trade offs just don't feel impactful to me. I'm liking the adaptation so far, but if they change who the DR is, it's no longer an adaptation, it's fanfic. So they need to be giving Rand development, huge parts of his backstory shouldn't be pushed to season two+. He's going to have to carry the show and if he can't then the show is doomed anyway.
I wonder how much of the emphasis on Moiraine is coming from Rosamund Pike's role as a producer. Seems like her star power is influencing the choices being made in the adaptation.
The man Liandrin is seeing is probably a forsaken giving her orders.
That nuclear spoiler for those who haven't read the book, tho.
it her lover , not a forsaken.
the loss of the two female friendships.. I didn't realize that was a thing in fantasy, that they're rare. Was a valid perspective I think.
I think they are trying to sell this too much instead of trusting the story.
it felt like they were trying to G.O.T it get the edge of sex and nudity scenes in cos that pulls viewers ...
Exactly. They are more concerned about maximizing viewers and clicks, even if they eventually lose those viewers. As long as they can cycle in new ones and keep the ball rolling they couldn't care less about the story, or the content.
@@SirBlaze75 Heh, exactly what my partner said. It reeks of cash grab and lazy writing.
@@SirBlaze75 Do you guys REALLY think that seeing some old fat people & saggy boobs, presented in the most non-sexual fashion, is the grand plan you think it is to draw in viewers? I know sometimes it's easy to jump to the first idea that comes to mind, but perhaps a bit of critical thinking & being less negative would help?
I'm sure they want to get as many viewers as possible, that's the point of every show in the history of the world. Did we see Rosemund Pike naked? Did we see a bunch of hot, young actors naked & during actual sex scenes? No... anything remotely sexual is presented more PG than CW shows, & they're even less frequent than CW shows!
I haven't even read the books, but I'd be willing to bet any romance in them were more descriptive than the light stuff show here. In an age when you can see anything you want in 10 seconds on your phone, I highly doubt Amazon's big gambit to draw in viewers was some brief shots of saggy nips.
@@SirBlaze75 so I just want to point out Jordan refers to the two as 'pillow friends' and went into how close they were. He also had other sisters who he refers to as pillow friends. Moraine and Suian having grown up together in a tower full of women I'm prety sure Jordan intended them to be lovers.
Yeah you're totally right. The whole "who is the dragon" decision was not popular but I could understand it for the mystery aspect of a first season to draw people in. That said, it makes no sense because the whole payoff will have almost no emotional impact due to such little character development on the EF 5 since we spent so much time on useless characters like Stepin. I am pretty disappointed to say the least.
Also how are the ogier supposed to even use those waygates?! LOL
As for the mystery aspect they are DESPERATE to copy cat from GoT's "who's a Targaryan", imagine if they ignored Jon Snow the whole series and then expected people to care who is a Targaryan. Lol It's so stupid. They are just trying to use basic writing tools to maximize their viewers, instead of trusting the story to do so. It's all for a pay day, and screw the legacy.
The innovative concepts and character interactions are what made the WOT a great series to read. The show runners have ignored much of what made it a great character journey and rich universe.
I love how more and more confused she gets with each episode review. hahahaha pls don't stop with the reviews, just sharing how the characters are described in the books is also very important.
I for sure will finish season 1! Just may not come back for season 2 depending on how it ends 🤣
@@Bookborn I almost didn't finish episode 6. I don't mind a Siuan back story, but they made is so cliche.
I decided to stick with it.
Moiraine is 😍😍 in this episode btw...until the love scene. I don't mind the relationship...it was a little too "in your face" for me...(too be clear if it was a heterosexual relationship I would have had the same problem...
I shouted "NOPE" when she skimmed/traveled to Siuan. I had a similar reaction to her opening the Ways...so many problems unless they show there's a secondary method to open them.
I'm going out of order...
The meeting in the Hall was obnoxious...Leanne Sedai was annoying with her staff...the facade of Siuan and Moiraine was over done...Liandrin was petulant (which might be in character, but it was written poorly).
Mats healing was too easy...I feel like I know why BH quit...
And many other things.
I'll finish out the season, but I might not finish the series...
@@filam7371 I always assumed the doorframe art on the wall she channels into is some form of a dream Ter'angreal and they are meeting in Tel'aran'rhiod. It's still a departure because you have to be, you know, asleep to use those, but it would make more sense. Siuan had one in her chambers in Tar Valon as well (when Moraine brought the girls to meet her, it was behind her). I could be misreading the room. I think the scene was unnecessary, but the unforgivable line was the whole retread of the "on your knees" line Siuan had said in the hall. It felt very Softcore Porn-ish corny and out of place.
@@jlvanvalk I didn't pick up on the Ter Angreal thing...
Your description of the scene is 100% accurate.
@@jlvanvalk that description of the Lesbian scene was so spot on. Lol the writing is just so so garbage. It's almost amazing.
I totally agree with you. I was onboard with the adaptation changes until episode 6, which I thought was horrific. My big 3 problems:
1: Matt being healed too early and by just Moraine. Avoiding spoilers, but dagger is central to plot in The Great Hunt.
2. Way gate requiring OP to open. Hugely problematic for central themes later. So easy for the builder to open the way gate. Why!!!!!!
3. Why Tar Valon at all? All seems shot there could have been at Caemlyn. So if budget was reason (1 city vs 2) why Tar Valon. It creates a lot of complications to the plot for no rational reason.
I'm with you now. At first I understood the Tar Valon thing, but now I'm like...all of this could've been done in Caemlyn, and it would've given Rand an opportunity to shine. Plus, this Suian stuff should've been pushed to season 2, where it makes more sense.
Maybe they will explain Mat staying behind by re-picking up the dagger. But yeah, they need to get it back for him to heal, so what's the moving force now to move against Fain?
(1) actually it happens the same way in the books. She does heal Mat (temporarily. We don't know how permanent her healing is here. I suspect it IS probably final tho. There's a million different ways to have the show moving season two. And in a show we REALLY cannot afford for a character to have basically no personality, no backstory, no real life for 2.5 seasons. Like in the books we have no idea who Mat really is until book 3. What can be done in a book (still kind of a dubvious choice by RJ) can't be done in a show. I was upset with Mat staying behind though - it's something that Mat would never do, he would go into literal hell for his friends. In fact he does do that several times during the books and he never ever letas them face a dager alone if he can help it, even if he complains. This was probably forced on them by the actor leaving tho.
(2) i hope they don't stick with OP being required, it really is an Ogier thing. Not sure why they went for it. They're probably combining portal stones and waygates.
(3) Because Tar Valon is much more important to the story. And they really can't meet Elayne, Galad, Gawyn, Morgase and Elaida for 20 minutes then leave them behind for a season. It's just not feasible to do that to a mainline actor of a show. You can't treat an actor like that. I mean you could do that but you'd have to pay them in full for being available and your studio won't allow that.
@@csarmii yeah but in the books they can't separate the dagger from matt when she gives him a temporary healing on the TV it gives a feeling of permanence to it when they take the dagger away. the biggest problem with doing it in Tar Valon rather than Caemlyn is it makes the world seem so much more smaller that it actually is. which in turn doesn't make the 2 rivers seem all that isolated and doesn't have the epic question of how to travel, which is why way gates, traveling and such are extremely important discoveries in the books. ie it took what 2 days for them to travel from Emond to Baerlon in the TV where as in the books it was 6 or 7 days, with them galloping and constant OP boosting in horses so journey would take the average merchant a month to travel then another week to Shadar Logoth again at a fast pace, and from there several weeks to Caemlyn but TV its a month from Emond fields to Tar Valon with 2 characters ambling their way there.
@@csarmii just to respond to your point about Matt... Do you think the show succeeded in revealing Matt as a character? Personally I think he's even more vague and shallow in the show. Like they had a good argument at first, but they UTTERLY wasted it.
My wife is reading the books for the first time and she's blown away how poorly they fleshed out the characters. She'll yank her braid if I even mention "Steppin". Lol (the punzzz)
@@SirBlaze75 I think you meant 2 days to get to the ferry. Because they skipped Baerlyn or however its spelled.
With how the differences are piling up these videos are going to get progressively longer
It was this episode I realized they haven't really mentioned Ta'veren at all. When Moraine was telling the girls they were important I thought she was about to give the reveal. I think it got cut.
@@Alec0124 You're right, I think in episode one Moiraine mentions that there are Ta'veren in the Two Rivers but it's never expanded upon or explained.
Very good points. I was having a hard time formulating my thought on what bothered me about his episode, you pretty much nailed it and it's nice to see someone not making excuses for some of the show's poor decisions. We've strayed so far from the main characters it does have me a bit worried where I was trying to be positive.
Exactly. Most youtubers are more concerned about becoming the "go to WoT channel" like other channels were for GoT theories. Chasing the money train and pretending it isn't on fire.
@@brednbudr2406 Yeah, it honesty confuses me how anyone can watch the series and honesty think it will be a hit on the scale of GoT.
Yeah I hear ya. Some of their decisions don’t make any sense at all. If they keep diverging from the books by the end of season 2 I feel like most of the people whom have read the books will have checked out.🤞
Totally agree about the excuses. I watched a few Daniel Greene episode reviews and he was so unrelentingly positive about everything I had to stop watching. I couldn't get on board with it.
@@joelgustafson8283 even his season review was WAY too forgiving. When he would get close to really touching on a real issue that bothered viewers, he'd edit over it with some long drawn out excuse about how he's probably being too harsh and he can't imagine how difficult it is to write, blah blah blah. He's so worried about his exclusive interviews and such, to say anything real.
I have been trying to be positive too, and I really appreciate your commentary. This episode was hard on me too. I know Brandon says this is 'another turn of the wheel', but I disagree. This is a portal stone 'flicker'.
Coming to that realization made me a little sad, but also a little freed from expectations. I can only hope that the parts I love are still going to be in this flicker.
Also, one of my bigger problems with this episode is how 'Elaida-like' they made Suian. There were scenes where she felt like her book self, but using the oath rod seemed TOO much like Elaida to me.
She definitely felt more strict than in the books. I think they were trying to play up the Moiraine/Suian drama.
I agree that it's a portal stone. At first, a pretty vivid one. Now getting a little paler and emptier as we go on 😅
Brandon saying it's "just another telling of the wheel" is literally him brainwashing himself so he can mentally cope with how much they are butchering the story line. He's convinced himself of a none reality just to digest this with a smile. Amazon advertises and monetized this as The Wheel of Time brought to film. Not "a show loosely based on the wheel of time, by Robert Jordan". Brandon may be saying it's a separate turning but the show runners are saying THIS is the story, and you better like it.
Keep in mind, he is trying to get a show series for his Mistborn and Stormlight Archive's books as well. So he HAS to keep a smile on his face through this, to get his own books a show.
@@Bookborn I actually liked the Thom romance, but I'm hoping they just don't do it at all now, rather than some shallow "lovers triangle", between Sioun, Moiraine, and Thom. I'd just barf.
@@brednbudr2406 I wouldn't put it past Rafe to turn this into "Wheel of Polyamory" based on his personal politics
No braids, no peace. Seriously though, I found your channel because of the show and even if you discontinue coverage I will continue to watch all of your content. You are very insightful, friendly, refreshingly apolitical, and open to differences of opinion. Exceptional traits. Just ordered The Grace of Kings thanks to your recommendation.
I agree with everything you said here. The lack of focus on the main characters is gradually diminishing my enjoyment. We linger too long on stepin and now on moiraine/Siuan . How about a little more exposition on Loial and his importance to accessing the Ways?
I came into the series ready for changes, but it’s starting to feel too different and I don’t think it has anything to do with budget limitations .
I mean didn't they have an insane budget??
Yes, this is it exactly. It's not like I dislike the stories being told, but it's weird they are telling some stories instead of others...like...RAND and LOIAL. At first I understood the Tar Valon change, but now I'm thinking they should've stuck with Caemlyn and moved ALL of this to season 2. Because...that's when the Tar Valon stuff happens anyway.
Can you begin to start to see, how other people could predict this from the beginning? Why does no one ask, what did they see that I couldn't? Were people ignoring it it or does their filter on reality not predict? I understand giving it a chance, but it was so obvious from the beginning and there were so many excuses. It was like a battered wife defending her abuser.
GOT had 2 accomplished show runners.
WOT has 1 with no stand out accomplishments.
Major issues with this....
When GOT showrunners and author stopped collaboration, we had a season 8 of GOT.
Imagine 8 WOT seasons like season 8 of GOT....
@@Bookborn This exactly. I completely understand needing to compress the story and change things to make it adaptable, but we literally substituted Caemlyn for Tar Valon and spend TWO entire episode there in what is an 8 episode season. :( why
@@infinitelybland3741 yeah, but keep in mind, they had Brandon as co-runner.
Before anyone spergs on me for complaining, I still love the show despite what I’m about to say...
...this show has a TON of time for extra bullshit when we’re introduced to, and rushed out of Emonds Field in like, 20 minutes. We met Siuans dad, and got an entire episode about a Warder who is barely mentioned in the series; Rand, Mat Perrin and to a lesser extent Egwene and Nynaeve feel completely neglected.
And, we’re given world building on things like the Oath Rod, but we don’t get: an explanation of the Ways from Loial ; or hesitance from Loial to go in them; any mention of the Black Wind at all; no mention of a Stedding; no mention of the idea that the other ta’veren are probably there to help the Dragon when Egwene asks her dumb “what happens to the rest of us?” question. The list goes on and on about what this show thinks it has time for, and what it’s not giving us as a result.
I’m trying to stay positive, forget what I know and (impossibly) enjoy the show as if I never read the series, but that seems to become more difficult with every episode.
You aren't wrong.
@@gator7082 Agreed. Not wrong at all.
Very well said.
We literally got more of her Dad than Tam. Crazy.
And the whole dad scene was so stupid as well they make mats dad into some shitty guy but then her dad is made out to be some loving worried father sends her away to save her. Makes 0 sense for why he didnt go with her he sent a 12 year old girl with like 5 fish on a journey 1600 miles long upriver like great what a loving father makes 0 sense just making a cheap emotional scene or something idk. Either have him be a loving father and take her to the tower or just make him typcial Tear man scared of channeling you get some worldbuilding of Tear and their mistrust of aes sedai and thats why he just sends her away. Just a waste of time anyway at least use it to do some world building thats like 5 minute stolen from main characters for like cheap emotional scene noone cares about
Totally agree about the nudity and "friends with benefits" of these relationships. I thought they went to Fal Dara and the Eye of the world before ending up in Tar Valon. It's messing up my recollection of the books. I'm probably dropping the series from my watch list after S1.
No you are totally right; I was getting confused myself. I was confusing the fact that the Amyrlin Seat comes to the blight and then they all travel to Tar Valon (sans Moiraine)
I agree! I don't see myself watching season 2 at all.
Let's be honest... They're deviating so far from the books at this point, it is no longer the Wheel of Time. A lot of the changes are unnecessary too, so they're basically using up screen time to bring in their random changes when they could have been using that screen time to stay truer to the books. I can see this getting cancelled.
I see it getting canceled mid way through season 2. I think most of the book fans will be done with it after the season 1 finial, the viewership will trickle away with non fans because the show is boring.
Bookborn replied to a comment stating Amazon said they were giving WoT 8 seasons. So I think it depends on if contracts are already in place for 8 seasons. If not, then I don’t see this show lasting. Amazon has been known for frequently only giving shows 3-4 seasons, even when it’s a hit, but they also have been known to pay for multiple seasons of a show before the pilot even airs.
It's absolutely Wheel of Time. The characters feel the same. The story feels the same, it's just put together differently by the pattern this time. They're being very thoughtful of every choice they make. Their episodes are full of subtle hints and foreshadowings as RJ's books are.
@@csarmii LOL
They were lucky/choose well their release date.
They won't get that lucky again, competition is coming.
There will be a lot of new Fantasy /Sci fi shows in 2022.
No one will care about WOT, it's completely forgettable.
Also, Prime do not release their numbers...the "number 1" in this or that comparison with other show is based on something called " public demand for", it's not based on how many people actually watched (and enjoyed or not...) the show.
I am growing sad watching these episodes. I love the book series so much, I named my daughter after a character, different spelling, read the first 3 or 4 books out loud to girlfriend/fiancée / now wife while driving on long trips. Now bringing my kids ages 14 and 16 into watch the TV series just feels almost wrong. At least I am having them reading the series so the see the massive differences. As my daughter says, “appears this is a previous turning of the wheel of time that failed before the next turning started with the books.”
The 3.5th age if you will 🤪
I see book readers being very lenient because they love the story and have wanted to see it on screen for a long time, but it was obvious after episode 1 they were barely trying to adapt the books. This is a show that doesn't trust it's source material. There are some great moments in "Eye of the World" that have been left behind to focus on things that don't appear in the books and every change this early in, means there will be even more changes the farther we go to accommodate those decisions.
I'm now scratching my head about why they went to Tar Valon instead of Caemlyn. At first I thought I understood it, but all of this stuff that's being set up really isn't needed until season 2. Caemlyn would've given a chance for our main characters to shine more.
@@Bookborn I would have preferred that as well. I think one of the best scenes in TEOTW is the throne room scene with Elaida, but you can't have that if you are trying to hide the identity of the Dragon Reborn from the audience. I think that decision was a poor one, because to this point they have done more to make us care about Stepin than Rand, Mat or Perrin.
@@Bookborn I think they're pushing the agenda of the Tower's politics as a feminist response to GoT. Just my humble opinion tho
@@Briaaanz lol, the Tower Politics have always been a huge part of WoT.
@@blackpaw29 not in book 1. and not in a yass kween way
My memory is not what it once was, but I seem to recall that once a man was cut off from the one power he would no longer go mad. But I wouldn't swear on the rod if that was absolutely correct.
Everyone seems to agree on that! They keep their current madness, but don't get worse.
This show is what happens in the turning of the wheel where the dark one wins..
Makes sense since Rafe is a Darkfriend.
I watched Brandon Sanderson's podcast and it really helped me detach any expectations for literary accuracy I had left. This show is in full on "inspired by" adaptation mode, as opposed to scene by scene mode. The changes are only going to get more numerous. I'm holding very loosely onto what I know about this series now, and I think it's helping. I really appreciate your work on this, but I understand you stopping if it stops being fun.
I have that on my list to watch; I wasn't sure if it would going to be different enough from his reddit post but everyone is saying it's really good. I'll for sure try to listen this weekend.
And I'm for sure at least finishing off season 1! I just may not come back to do this for season 2 depending on how it ends 😅
Regarding men going mad after being cut off- it’s a degenerative process, so whatever madness they have already accumulated will still be there, but they wouldn’t degenerate further.
It helped me a bit but I'm still pretty disappointed about what this is. Even if I accept all the adaptation stuff it is hard to swallow all of the Identity Politics they are shoving into this show. I really had high hopes for this show and I have read these books so many times I'm just heartbroken for what this series is.
@@Bookborn will still be following your videos... but you have to do season 2.
I'm finding more enjoyment watching like minded book readers being honest than the readers who love this series adaptation. I still maintain, reading a book is not the same as reading and understanding what you read....
@@Raistlinsdragonclaw Apologies, I meant to say........
Dr Strange's .... Alternate reality adaptation of the WOT....
There is "NO WAY HOME" from here.....
Really loving these videos. You have a great perspective on the changes they've made. Thank you!
Thanks for watching!
I feel the exact same way… The Wheel of Time deserves better. I had hope from the first episode, but… well you already covered it.
Let's see what the last episodes do... 😬 (If you're still planning on watching them)
Love your content - as a book reader I'm also flabbergasted at how much of the books are cut out *and being replaced with filler*. It's one thing to condense story arcs for brevity, but at this point there's a sense of "...why tho?" constantly when I watch the episode. It's soul crushing how bizarre it is.
I realized it's starting to feel like it's wheel of time but if Moiraine was the main character. Now don't get me wrong - she's my favorite character. But, if you made a Harry Potter adaptation with Dumbledore as the main character, it would feel very different. And that's how this feels. The Two River's kids are only there to serve Moiraine's story...not the other way around.
Perrin and Mat spent the episode in bed saying nothing.
Rand was effectively locked up in the room with Mat.
Know your place, guys.
Know your place.
Nothing has happened effectively with them in two episodes.
What a waste of a quarter of the season.
but but but, we got gay warders crying and some woman on woman action, and powerful women telling me to sit down and shut up!
That's what it's all about, right?
@@Briansgate won't be complaining about that I didn't perceive a bias towards skewing the plot away from these these three main characters, two of whom are the only POVs for the Eye Of The World.
ps: It's not my intention to turn Bookborn's channel into a cultural war battlegound. :)
Yup really weird they just have no plot for main characters because they are trying to hide who the dragon is and just giving them no screen time they went overboard with the mistery they couls hace hinted it more and even if its clear who it is you still kinda feel the big revalation in the books because you actually care for the caracters in the show they went with like no development for the dragon character and just went for boom shock value subvert your expectation which i hate and probably wont pay off because well you dont give a shit about the character
And really wish they had some more throwaway lines just huilding up mithology a bit here and there showing how people are afraid of the dragon like everyone is scared of him etc. And more lore about the ways like at least have Loial be like scared to go in and try to convince them not to not just give em a history lession and go in
Omg I was not expecting any of this! Great episode!
I enjoy you using your knowledge of the series to point out places where there are discrepancies between book and show. I can also understand how this might be frustrating for you as someone who cares about the story but I come straight to your videos after I watch an episode, you're doing good work.
Barney Harris (Mat) left the series after this episode so they had to scramble which led to Mat left standing outside the gate.
Yes, I thought Harris left after the season was over, so I thought this was a choice. I have COMPLETE sympathy for the show runners now; it wasn't their fault, or their choice, to make the script like that with Mat.
Same here. I have mostly been accepting of the changes. Limited time, limited seasons, and thousands of pages of material. And beyond that books just can't be 1-1 translated into a visual medium like tv. But Matt being left behind, the idea that more than one person is the dragon, has me both worried and confused. I feel at the same time they are skipping and rushing through material while at the same time wasting time doing a large flashback of Susan's childhood. Feels jarring at times.
Yes! Going to slow AND too fast at the same time. I'm not sure how it feels that way but it does lol. IDK if you heard, but they didn't plan on cutting Mat out of the last two episodes - that was when the actor quit. So, that made me feel better - at least that wasn't their purposeful choice.
All in all you are extremely positive about the changes and the pending results to come. Solid stuff. Thanks.
The changes so far have kinda ruined it for me it feels like they are rewriting what was one of my favourite ever book series. I could see past some of the changes but as time goes on it just seems to be getting worse this is most definitely not the wheel of time I know and loved. I have heard the arguments that it has to be cut for tv and I get that but they are adding things that fundamentally change the characters to the point they are not even likeable anymore.
Video summary: This doesn't happen, that doesn't exist, that totally doesn't happen...
I've lowered my expectations for this show to the Hercules: The Legendary Journeys level.
hey! Hercules was a cool show!
@@Briansgate Hurcules is way better, as cheesy as it is, it is cheesy fun, this is worse than garbage.😤
Well we have the Mandalorian as Xena, it's only fair we have WoT as Hercules to complete the team :)). Jk, but I understand what you're saying.. the more I watch the series the less interested I am in it. I Really liked the beginning of the episode with little Siuan, but everything else was... honestly garbage. I consider this episode a filler where they just healed Mat and started moving again, and showed Siuan a bit which could have been done a lot better in so many ways in less time.
@@sieuzice One of the biggest problems is that they are trying to fit two books of around 1500 pages into eight episodes which is already absurd but even worse they keep adding useless filler. The beginning scene would be fine if they were doing 20 episodes but doesn't with eight because their are much more important things that need to be added.
I have read the first 5-6 books way more than 5 times (since the book series was far from complete back then) and the rest of the books several times. Instead of getting "mad" after each episode I just decided that I will try to see this show as a separate story. But it is hard. This series feels so rushed in the storyline progression.
It feels rushed but also slow somehow? lol like I think we aren't combining character development and plot movement as much as needs to
@@Bookborn I think it feels rushed because of the vast swaths of the book they've cut, especially all the on the road traveling. It feels slow because the last 2 episodes have seen the plot grind to a halt for character development- and largely unnecessary character development at that.
@@emmettfitz-hume9408 Yeah, they would have done better just more closely following the book and letting the audience grow with each character. That would have made more sense than spending all this unnecessary time on secondary characters. Instead, they've managed to mess up the pacing, and I am not sure they will ever be able to recover.
I've read the earlier books more too :)
I haven't tried seeing this as a different story thus far. I am afraid after this episode I no longer have a choice. I should of seen it earlier but I was really excited to see it on the screen I suppose.
I'm rather baffled that you made it this far in before being annoyed. What are they doing with Mat? LOL what are they doing with all the characters?
It's just fascinating to see the 3 boys who are the main characters in this series for a long time are still basically blocks of wood but they fleshed out Liandran. Fascinating choice! I mean look at what they've done with Lan! They could have humanized him a bit from the stoic rock he's supposed to be by having him teach Rand the sword... ya know like in the book but I guess the practice sword fights would have been boring or something? But hey these people thought having perrin kill his wife and then go on an adventure was just great stuff!
Who would have guessed they didn't respect the source material, shocking....
I can deal with a new story. Brandon Sanderson considers it another turning of the wheel. Cool, whatever, I can dig it.
For the love of the light stop bloody flaming changing all the milk drinking rules! Men cannot see weaves of saidar! Moraine and all the existing Aes Sedai are relatively weak and shadows of past Aes Sedai! Moraine cannot tear down inns and heal Mat of the dagger solo, without even using her stolen angreal! The ways can be opened by anyone with the knowledge of how they work, you don't need the one power! Waygates aren't boring stargate terminals set out on mowed hillsides... they are hidden in private gardens and basements of old relic buildings. Loial has droopy eyebrows and expressive ears! The goat-kissing dragon reborn is a bloody dude. Its not a dis on women, he is a reincarnated man who destroyed the world.
No whitecloak has 5 or 10 Aes Sedai rings on his belt! In written history they may have managed to put an arrow in one or two but they have NEVER caught one and burned her at the flaming stake! They are frustrated bullies who do most of their evil deeds to helpless commoners.
Burn me for a bloody black-veiled Aielman.
I agree with what everyone is saying - the show has only a passing resemblance to the book. That would be ok if they didn't choose to take everything in the most maudlin, trope ridden direction they could find. If they actually applied some creativity to the changes, it might enrage us book fans less.
Well said. They are just shit writers.
From what I recall the books explained that the madness stops when you stop touching the taint, whether it be from having been gentled or after Rand cleansed Saidin. The madness doesn't however go away with time, you remain exactly as mad as you were the last time you touched the taint unless you're healed of it.
It's a bit more complicated than that...even once Saidin is cleansed, and even after getting healed, some are too gone and still end up crazy.
The entire episode is different. Done. And done with the show.
Recently, being mostly still recovering from being sick, I have re-read both The Eye of The World and The Great Hunt, and am partway into The Dragon Reborn.
Last week, I genuinely felt like I understood the reasons behind a lot of the changes made to The Wheel of Time show, and was even remarking that I had grown to like it.
...and then there was today's episode. It felt like badly written fan fiction. There was virtually nothing about these characters, the plot, the direction, or even any of the basic story elements that bore ANY resemblance to the source material AT ALL.
I understand the need to make changes in adaptations, I genuinely do.
I just don't get what the point of this episode even was. If it was to get us to know Siuan Sanche better, I think it failed, and I'm genuinely a fan of this actress, but the writing and characterization bears no resemblance to the Amyrlin Seat I know, and I'm not talking about the reason many will immediately assume.
What little we got with the boys didn't really work for me, either. Not enough with Perrin to comment, Rand felt very out of character here, and if Mat's dilemma is tied up that easily, what a giant letdown.
They even managed to screw up The Ways and what The Eye of the World is.
Honestly, my favorite character this episode was Liandrin... not something I ever thought I'd catch myself saying.
I knew they'd have to leave a lot out, but this was an entire episode of "additions" that added nothing.
It was just bad.
Liandrin is doing so much work by being different but still so true to the book somehow lol.
I agree, I've been really positive up until this episode. THe lack of movement and focus on the five main characters has left me scratching my head. Maybe the next two episodes will make up for it...
I'm with you. Up until now, I was mostly onboard; I understood many of the changes and their purpose, even if I didn't agree with all of them. But this episode felt like tires spinning in snow, and the car going nowhere. We've now had two episodes of zero plot movement, and even worse, its further off the rails, and off the rails in a way that is going to make later seasons- if there are many past season 2- seem even less like the Wheel of Time.
I will finish the season out. But I don't know about next season.
mat is like one of the coolest characters in the books, hopefully they make this cabal go up and keep mats storyline on point. Main points for Mat is to get the gamblin luck right, the missing memories and the new memories which replace those gaps.
And the HAT!
@@trevorlangdon Yes! The hat HAS to be there!
Regrettably, I agree with most of your comments. The interaction of Siuan and Moraine was so interesting in the books. It seems the series is pandering to a less thoughtful audience than I would like to see.
I can see how the subtext was there with pillow friends and all, so I think the more distance I get from it the more I understand it. I just preferred the friendship, I think.
@@Bookborn Me too
@@Bookborn In "A New Spring" Moraine and Siuan" are still having a relationship, also that's where they hear Gitara's prophecy, maybe thats when they started hiding things?
I think this is where Mat's actor left the show. So they had to quickly cut him out even though it was awkward. I hate it too, but they really couldnt do much when one of their actors leaves suddenly. That's probably why the dagger healing was so sudden. I think when we have a new Mat actor, the dagger will still have a hold on him for a while. Maybe he will have much of the Horn plotlines happening with just him rather than all of them and maybe he will have his plot line of bringing Thom back into the story much sooner.
Man, I thought he left *between* seasons 1 and 2. Either way, I feel like...shouldn't they have paused and recast Mat quickly? They probably couldn't but having Mat missing for the last two episodes is INSANE to me
Imbd says he's in 8 episodes. Don't know if that's true but that's what it says
@@Dovieandi_Se_Tovya_Sagain Weird theory here, but maybe they will do some sort of weird combination of the events of the books with Mat. We already saw Padan Fain in Tar Valon and so maybe Matt will go back for the dagger, Fain will steal it, and it will lead to the events of the book, just out of order. It's also possible that they are viewing it as Moraine now thinks Mat is not the Dragon Reborn, so she lets him stay because she has other things to work on. She seemed to almost know it was going to happen. Maybe when he asks "is it too late to change my mind" she understood that he wasn't coming and confirmed to him that she knew his mind was made up. I don't know. It's distressing for sure because Mat is such a good character. I hope they leave the essential parts of him in place when the dust settles.
I totally agree about this splitting of the dragons soul. If all 5 of them are going to be the dragon that is going to mean so many changes to the story and just be terrible. Given they are already exploring Perrin abilities I don’t think they will do that (hopefully). Given this is only 8 episodes I really don’t understand the amount of time they have wasted in the last 2 episodes. Let’s hope the last two (ways and eye of the world) do the story justice.
100% agree. Hopefully it's just another misdirect because like...that's a change I just won't get behind.
The changes in episode 4 were what I'm on board for. They have a lot of material so they have to condense but the focus of the show was on the main cast. The last two episodes have tried to develop things that don't matter till later seasons before we actually care about anyone from Emond's Field. Rand's full arc makes him one of my very favorite characters in all of fantasy, but as of now he's had less screen time than Steppin
In order to deepen the mystery of the dragon reborn they´ve given everyone more screen time and made them a suspect of being the dragon than the actual dragon. I have a non-reader friend that knew from the start cause he caught up in this very thing. That´s overdoing it so much that it´s not a mystery! By now everyone should know. Cause there´s something special with everyone except the dragon so far xD He never get his clothes dirty and is always the nice guy, while there is something special about everyone else! Nynaeve and Egwene are channelers, Mat have his dagger and Perrin being the wolf, but not Rand! Such a mystery, who could it be xD Bad storytelling indeed!
Oh no I never suspected! :O Will nobody say when its reviled! I mean come on, it terrible! They are slaughtering the series, it never was about who is the dragon rather about is he going insane from the taint or not! xD
Lmao omg you are right. It's just so bad.
@@arondahlberg5086 reflecting on your point, it made even more sense to make Rand a blademaster from the beginning.
The fact that saidar and saidin havent been mentioned bothers me. I also don't like how moiraine says that the dark one is imprisoned at the eye of the world. That's just straight up wrong. Hopefully she's just ignorant.
I love these videos..I've never read the books so this is fun for me..stay strong girl lol
Ya this is exactly where the actor playing Mat left the show. It has been confirmed on social media by the production. We can have problems with the show so far, but this one we should show some grace. Him leaving was completely out of the blue and I'm sure they had to scramble to adjust.
Yeah, I thought he left after the season was done. But...idk. I think they should've said something in the episode? IDK. The fact that Mat won't be in the last two episodes blows my mind. I realize it's not their fault, but I think recasting someone quick for the last two episodes may honestly have been better...
Casting a new actor mid episodes would pretty much kill the show they would have to shut down the production and potentially send everyone home, casting sessions screen tests contracts not something generally rushed. It would have been nice but definitely not practical.
I'm really enjoying your insight into these episodes. It's been a few years since I read the books, so the details aren't exactly fresh in my mind, so it's great to hear you compare and contrast the books and show. I'm a little annoyed about Mat never really being likeable...he's more of a jerk than a loveable scoundrel-type, but I hope they can lighten his character a bit now that the dagger is done with. The nudity scenes also seem excessive to me. For the most part, I'm really happy with the casting, and Rosamund Pike is just incredible. The actor playing Mat left the show? Hmmm...I wonder how they'll play that off. I'm not crazy about the design for loial, and I was hoping he would be bigger, either through forced perspective, or digital trickery. Cutting out parts from the book is totally understandable, but I don't get the need to add new material that wasn't in the books, and doesn't really make the narrative flow and more smoothly. I look forward to your next video!
I've said this elsewhere as well, but I believe we should accept that this is not RJ's WoT, but "another turn of the wheel". In this world, there are no Wilders (or rather everyone is a wilder), and weaving is not learned, it's intuited. I've made my peace with the divergence at this point and am only concentrating on at least getting a cohesive story. And tbh, I'm struggling at that as well, because the show is full of inconsistencies and rushed scenes, and unhelpful side plots. The Eamon Field kids feel like the pretext for Moiraine's journey. And if that's the story, fair enough. To paraphrase Moiraine, "we're in uncharted waters now!" I knew it would come eventually, but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon, considering that, unlike GoT, this series at least is complete...
I feel like it's almost WOT from Moiraine's perspective, rather than Rands/the other Two Rivers in a way
Keep it up! I've been watching the show and this playlist of yours. Each show I find myself asking, "Did it happen this way in the book?", "I don't remember that!?", "Wait, what?!" - so it's nice to have another point of reference back to the books that isn't sponsored by Amazon :D
My biggest gripe with the series is that it's only 8 episodes for the first book - that's not nearly enough. Which is funny, because that's about 8 hours of screen time and Lord of the Rings was a little over 3.5hrs. It just seems like so much has been changed or is different. Ah well, I'll enjoy it for what it is.
Keep up the good work!
I keep comparing it to Lord of the Rings like "they did it in 9ish hours...we have 8 hours here...for a SINGLE BOOK!" So idk I think LOTR was something magic and we'll just never get an adaptation as successful as that again.
@@Bookborn Jackson actually liked the source material and was invested in it. I don't get the feeling that the showrunner on WoT does. He seems to want. to tell his story, not Jordan's.
I was starting to wonder if it’s easier to point out what is from the book rather than the changes. At some point there will be nothing but names left unchanged.
I mean, a lot of the politics are honestly great and some of the bigger plot points. It's more that we are focusing on stuff that I think would be better served in season 2.
Totally agree with you. Specially with the female friendship left out... Women in fantasy either hate each other or are lovers, it seems... I felt quite disappointed. Also, with the way of resolving the Shadar Logoth's dagger problem. Really? And well, the nudity's purpose was so on the nose that it almost made me laugh. So obvious! But somehow expected.
I was trying really hard to enjoy the show, even if they are changing or skipping sooo many things I wanted to see on screen... I even tried to think about it as another turn of the wheel. But the truth is that each episode that goes out I enjoy the less.
Mat staying behind made no sense at all to the story, but it may have to do with the actor leaving the show? I don't know. Honestly, I don't get 90% of the changes they are making to the story! 😂
Anyway, let's see what the last two episodes achieve (if anything is to be achieved during this first season)
Yes, you are right! I thought the actor left at the end of the season but apparently he left after this episode. That gives me WAY more sympathy to the show runners. They didn't have a lot of options. My guess is they'll explain it by him "picking up the dagger" again or something.
@@Bookborn That would actually work! And maybe lead to another kind of healing Mat from the dagger...
I didn't know the actor left the show this early either, but I think that making the character take the dagger again would be a good solution.
I am with you, this episode was tough to swallow. I am fine with change and adaptation as long as the main plot points are covered. I want them to slow down a bit. What really makes me sad is that there are so many great parts, politics, characters that are being ignored or not developed. Like you said spend a little more time on the main characters.
I don't think they have an option to slow down, really, since they were only given 8 episodes. That being said, it's almost like they need to speed up some places, or just get better at combining moving plot forward with character development.
There was no politics in Book 1
Thanks! I look forward to your reviews!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for doing the videos. I'm new to WoT. The show has got me reading the books, but I haven't got to Caemlyn yet. It's massively helpful to hear how the shows are different.
I really feel with you as you trie to point out the differences which becomes a more and more herculean task. Up to the episode four this was more or less possible, as they replaced existing specific scenes with other scenes which were at least inspired by the stories told to the POV characters. Nevertheless, Perrin killing his wife (that's about the worst thing a character can do), switching out the Aes Sedai lore (swearing additional oaths, Saidin/Saidar), laying the foundation for all of the EF5 being a collective dragon and switching up the progression of the travel with the 1 month passing and then goint for Tar Valon instead of Caemlyn is really disturbing. Especially, since a lot of dropped scenes were replaced by at this point unneccessary scenes/information. Or has anyone heard what Moiraine really is motivating and why she was in Emonds Field?
I *think* there is still Saidin/Saidar?I can't tell right now. They haven't even talked about it much 🤦♀️
@@Bookborn If the Dragon can be either girl or boy, then the entire premise of the Breaking of the World is lost. I do think it would be amazing if the show was through Moraine's eyes, but it cannot start now. It would not make sense with the first 4 episodes.
As someone who hasn't read the books but is enjoying the show a lot, it's been very interesting for me to hear the thoughts & opinions of book readers. I totally get it, too. I'm sure some of these changes would bother me a lot if I were coming from it as a reader of the series... Anyway, thanks for the great videos. For what it's worth, story-wise, I have very few complaints so far. I'm excited to see what happens in coming episodes!! :)
They went woke, thats my problem! They make their story choices on political issues instead of telling a good story for the sake of the story. And this shit about making a mystery about who is the dragon reborn really makes it even more weird since its obvious. I have a non-reader friend and he new from the first episode and the reason he made for it was so obvious too! If the make it like the dragon is five instead of one I´m done. And every non-reader that paid attention should know exactly who it is by now.
Story-wise they made it really bad, and copied alot of cliché from other series or fantasy. Tarens bridge most have been the worst copycat in history, they just created LotR in the context of WoT xD
*4:00** pillow pals:* like at oxford & eden. -JC
Still reading the books (first time) and currently on book 6 (started reading after I watched first 3 episodes of the show).
I think it's expected that we see some cuts in content or parts reworked, some characters "merged" into one character, some plot points simplified for the sake of time.
But this imho doesn't do justice to the characters. You can even say that we don't really know the main characters, based on time we spent with them in the show. We don't know how will they react to some things as they are dumbed down to a generic "thief", "warrior/knight", "berserker", "mage", "healer". We just glanced at the characters because they cut too much...
Some part of me even thinks that Mat's actor leaving influenced removing a large portion of the content so that viewers don't get too attached to him. Otherwise the "added" content doesn't make sense (don't want to say it's fluff content, just that the show had to manage with other actors to fill in the time). Not blaming Mat's actor here, just trying to figure out why would they improvise stuff on this level versus giving more screen time to the main characters.
As for the kissing part, I think it was a detail that was added because of necessity. The show wanted to show in a minute how close they are to save time (even if that sounds contradicting with my previous statement about "fluff content"). Personally I think that was not the right way to do it as they kind of endangered Moraine's "zealotry" towards her goal as there is no room in her heart for anything except the Dragon (or I guess Dragons...) and a little tiny spot for Lan (when she shows a tiny bit of jealousy in a moment or two or when she enjoys teasing him).
Also, imho, it feels like someone made a checklist of important events, removed what they considered unimportant events, removed the "glue" that connects the events and didn't actually connect what was left. In a way it feels like the "chapter" destination is only what is important, not the travel that led to there, thus we see a lot of improvisation to "link" the events. It's so poorly done, without any track of time/progression and character development that it feels like a jumbling mess (when compared to the books).
The "added drama" is shifting focus from what is really important in the show, to establish everyone and their place in the world, their evolution / growth / development through interactions and experiences.
I guess that the showrunners felt that the show needs more action / drama to keep the viewers, and there is a part of me that agrees with that (not fully agree, but I can recognize the need for it).
I wouldn't say everything is doom and gloom, acting is (most of the time) great, songs are great, visuals too. Just that everything in between that doesn't hold a candle to the books, and in a way, you can even say it disrespects the author (but I doubt that was the intention).
Totally agree. There no value to the mystery of the dragon's identity, so they create some artificially, by marking all the others EF5 for death. WTH? As if facing the Dark One totally unprepared wasn't bad enough.
I am a fan of the books, started reading them as a teenager. I would give myself a migraine at some of the changes that don't make sense. That being said I tried to separate from the books as a few non readers are watching with me.
I won't get into the changes "See migraine quote from above". But one thing that is bothering me is a statement from one of my non reader friends. She asked did Amazon put any real money into this? That is what bothers me, you nailed on the head where are all of the people in the tower, novices, accepted etc.
I will go a step further, the battle between Logain's followers and the Aes Sedai looked like a day of Larping.
When the "army" returned to March through town, it was like 20 people, that is not an army. Tar Valon seems more like a small town in scenes vs a city.
It seems kinda of lifeless, could they not grab a few folks to be extras?
As a reader we know there are scenes in the books with 10s of thousands, how are thet going to manage that? Story changes aside; it seems like they have a limited production budget to make it feel epic as the series is in the books.
I don't get that either. Reports are, Amazon spent $10 million per episode: Where on earth did all that money go? I just don't see it. And some shows with a lot less money managed to look a lot more expensive.
@@emmettfitz-hume9408 I heard $10 mil/ ep as well. Only way I can rationalize it is that they're budgeting that much, but in reality they're banking 9.5/ ep to spend later on Dumai's Wells.
So 10 mil an episode is 80 mil for the season? That's less than a third what a Hollywood movie costs and Disney+ series from Wanda Vision to Hawkeye all cost over 25 million per episode. This Wheel of Time adaptation is more comparable to the Witcher series so please, everyone, enhance your calm and maintain expectations at adequate levels. I sure hope the show gains even more of a following so future seasons can operate with the budget to present the worldbuilding as it should be.
@@parrybaskey9242 Upon reflection, this show is quickly becoming fan fiction. The writing is not strong and the focus is not on the Edmonds Five.
To behonest I liked the witcher series. So lower budget is not an issue, the presentation of it is. The pacing of the series is off, with wasted time on side chracters that are here for a New York minute. The writers expect me to care about them when they kill them off? They have a ton of material to work with and they are adding stuff to it...
So true. I kept thinking how small the tower must be for the same people to keep meeting in its hallways so frequently. And I still don't get how Nyneave was allowed into Stepin's funeral; It felt like recycling her as an extra.
I have never read the books and actually enjoying the show up until now. Now when I see your review I can understand the both sides of the story and why some people are disliking it. I will love to see you make a lengthy video about all the key plot changes from the books after the season ends.
I'm planning on it! Mostly the changes I thought were great, ones I thought detracted, and my overall thoughts.
Are you emotionally invested in the characters? Do you understand their motivations? (As a non reader, genuinely curious)🐉
Totally agree with you on all counts that you discussed. I am still getting over not seeing Bela and the dagger not going on to Fal Dara for Padan Fain to steal and the need for Matt to go on the Great Hunt. Felt the most negative this episode watching Matt stay outside especially after shooing the horses away. Now he has to walk to wherever, no money and his efforts to run into Thom Merrillan where he learns to juggle.
Sooo turns out the actor quit after this episode. So wasn't the writer's idea to write him out, they didn't have a choice in this season. So maybe they'll explain it away that he took the dagger up again or something.
One thing that kind of bothered me in this episode is that when Siuan used the one power as a child, her father said that she shouldn't do that because someone might be watching. That's a tad concerning to me because with what she did there would be no way to know that she was using the one power. It indicates that normal people can see weaves. Especially since someone painted the dragon's Fang on their burned down house.
Also, I get aes sedai aren't as stoic as they are in the books, but they didn't have to make them so emotional and reactive. Especially during the trial, those were sitters and the amyrlin seat. There would not have been crying and gasping and all sorts of other stuff. It is very important to them to maintain composure and they kind of thrown all that out the window.
One suspicion I heard from someone and I think it's interesting is that the man liandrin is seeing may be a Forsaken. And that's why she shut up so quickly.
also you don't need the oath rod for asedai because they have to tell the truth. so if they say "i will serve you" they have to serve you or they would be lying which they cant do.
RIGHT. That's why they TAKE THAT FIRST THREE OATHS. If Moiraine says "ok I'm exiled" then there it is.
Am I the only one who totally missed the 'pillow-pals' things means they slept together? I always just assume it was two girls going through a hard time who shared secrets and frustration together. Sure they could be romantic, but first and foremost (in my mind) the relationships felt emotionally supportive between two young girls.
I understand how it could seem that way. However, Robert Jordan did indicate that "pillow pals" were lesbian dalliances that sometimes occurred between novices. It is also mentioned again in later books that some Aes Sedai continued these relationships and that "it was no one's business" other than theirs, indicating that these things were more than friendships.
Overall, the relationship between Moraine and Siuan doesn't upset me that much. The lack of character development for the main protagonists is bothering me the most - the showrunners are skipping the most important elements that build up who these people later become. The showrunners have already managed to mess this story up considerably, and I am not sure how they can redeem it with all the changes. I suspect that this series will never make it to the end, even if it hangs on for a few seasons.
It's both
I always interpreted it as fooling around with each other 😅 Mostly from one scene where I think Elaida mentions that an Aes Sedai is wearing a low cut top to "remind her of when they were pillow pals" and how it isn't working.
@Mike Dalby I actually wonder if it is less RJ is prudish or that maybe he was worried going any further than he would the book would be rejected at the publisher. It was still Illegal to be gay in about half of the USA when the first 10 books came out. it was not until 2003 that it was decriminalized in entirety and there was still a lot of discrimination. So yeah I am not surprised he used "pillow friends" instead, who knows he may have said more and the publisher forced him to change it.
@Mike DalbyI did not say unusual did I? Pretty sure I said illegal. Eye of the world came out 3 years before don't ask don't tell started. I remember my parents freaking thinking Clinton was the antichrist because of what he was doing.
Please don't stop doing these videos. It's been years since I read these and while I don't need a perfectly faithful adaptation, I do find your videos comparing them fascinating. That said, do what you feel you need to, I'm just saying that I enjoy watching them. 🙂
Firstly, love your stuff. Thanks a lot for the effort you put into your reviews.
Like a lot of book fans (I guess) I started out really wanting the best and happy to overlook compromises because of the differences in medium and also the commercial reality of a big budget production where some compromises might be necessary to support commercial viability of the project.
But the episodes 5 and 6 are really stretching my patience. Its like we have a production team who may know the story but fundamentally misunderstand the source material.
There is little respect for key elements of world building. And a total disdain for some of Jordan's key themes.
YES, that's exactly how I'm feeling. I was feeling even pretty good after episode 4; but 5 and 6 have me confused about where it's going. Look, Moiraine is my favorite character in the series. I get loving her and giving her screen time. But, making the show from her perspective is vastly changing the story in ways I think it'll be hard to come back from.
I was really looking forward to your review of this episode! I have really enjoyed that you have made an effort to be open minded and positive about show changes. It's helped me try to accept them also. Thanks for exuding that positive outlook!
But like you, the large departures in tone/characterization/plot have irked me... This episode was maybe the hardest for me. With the inclusion of the Siuan/moraine story arc, I took it as a sort of final declaration that the show runners have no intention of recreating the same story beats... They are going to make entirely new story arcs. And it feels like they're doing it at the expense of development of main characters...
And I guess I'm just gonna have to accept that for what it is... Idk, it's not the WoT I wanted. I'm struggling with that realization after this one
Do as the rest of us. Don't watch it and get your dose from Bookborn to see if the show can be saved which I don't think so. This way you don't get the taint from the show.
I really don't understand how proclaimed "huge" fans of the books can like this. Nothing is the same except the names.
They go straight from Caemlyn to the Shienar. They never head to Tar Valon. Moiraine never goes to Tar Valon in the entire series outside of New Spring.
Yeah you're totally right, I mixed Shienar in my head with the ending of book 2 - because the Amyrlin seat was there at the blight I just confused it.
on the first read, moiraine's relationship was a huge surprise and seemed completely out of nowhere. on second reread "oh that was there huh" on third "Ohhhhh that was subtle and secretive... just like they were ohhh"
Yeahhh but I still disliked it lol. IDK, I think it's mostly a "ME" problem...I really imagined Moiraine married to her cause and just don't think I'd like any romance for her.
@@Bookborn That's absolutely fair, given her character I doubt she would have considered it if she wasn't hanging around so many darn Ta'veren
do you have recommendations for f/f relationships in fantasy books or tv, either works
romantic relationships? I LOVE "This is How You Lose the Time War" - was one of my top five books of 2019.
Honestly, I think that the scene with Mat is related to the actors departure from the series. Maybe they will spin some storyline that tries to make sense of why he is essentially a different person next season?? All speculations though.
Also, I completely agree on the nudity... It just feels forced and unnecessary.
I always thought he left *between* seasons 1 and 2, but that would make sense if he ditched during filming. However, that would be a big enough issue to pause and find someone else. Mat being GONE for the last two episodes will be insane.
@@Bookborn I could be remembering wrong but I recall reading somewhere that he left around the end of season 1 and not actually after it was finished but I may be completely wrong so don't quote me on that ^^
Even if the reason for him staying behind has nothing to do with the re-casting, it still does not make any sense to me (as a book fan) as to why he would stay back. But then again, few things do.
Wait--what? Mat left the series? Ugh...he and Perrin were my favorite characters. It' bad enough they both got dropped for complete books in the slog, but you can't have him leave the series. Find another actor who is similar and have him fall into a ter'angreal, sa'agreal, angreal or whatever the appropriate term is and it alters his appearance. But you can't have him leave before he ever says blood and bloody ashes or dons that hat.
@@jasonbailey9139 The actor left, not the character. Mat has been recast for season 2. The first 6 episodes were filmed before Covid started. Mats actor didnt come back after the break.
I’m racking my brain and can’t figure it out… what other future female bond will be sexual? Brigitte and Elayne? I don’t know why I can’t think who it would be!
Totally agree with everything you said. There is absolutely a place for strong intimate friendships that are not sexual and I always really enjoyed Moraine and Suians. I get that it was implied they hooked up when they were younger, but I very much prefer to Moraine who is married to her job.
Spot on with the nudity as well. Jordan’s books are intentionally PG-13 with such things. I think it’s part of the charm and really differentiates it from a game of thrones. If you need nudity to make your program good then that’s a major problem.
All of that being said I’m enjoying most of the show while having significant issues with other parts.
"I'm enjoying most of the show while having significant issues with other parts" literally nails how I feel right now lol I'm feeling less hostile now, though, now that I know that they had to do that with Mat because this is when the actor bailed. That's not the showrunners' fault.
They are going to make Rand's harem fully polyamorous. So, Elayne and Aviendah will be in a romantic relationship. While having it be poly is obviously preferable to the disaster that is Rand's harem in the book (lol), I just LOVED Elayne and Aviendah's friendship and how they choose to become sisters. So, turning that romantic lessons that to me, personally. I wish they would've just had Rand end up with one woman. I would've fully supported that change.
spoilers.
I thought about Elayne and Aviendha, thought that wouldnt be nice to Rand.
@@Bookborn I hadn't seen this (polyamorous harem) mentioned anywhere, is this something the show runners have confirmed?
From what it looks like now, judging by the hints that were dropped in-show and out of it, they are going to "split the Dragon's soul" meaning EVERYONE of the Emonds fielders will collectively be the Dragon. Though I am not the least bit surprised to hear it at this point, can this possibly get any worse I wonder? I'm starting to understand Mat's decision to just leave it all behind. I feel like doing the same.
I'm hoping that was ANOTHER red herring. I mean, have we spent more time on red herring's then actually giving Rand a backstory? Sure. But...if they split the soul of the dragon I have to say that would be a deal breaker for me haha
Well said. I agree with every point you brought up. At this point, for me, they have made a show loosely based on the books that I love so much at the cost of the plot and the characters themselves.
If I had never read the books, this show would not even make sense, nor would I care about many of the characters because I don’t know them! There is no development on them. Too many additions and omissions from the epic story that Jordan created for me. Also there isn’t this cataclysmic urgency to find the Dragon before Tarmon Gaidon, the forsaken are barely mentioned and the audience asks itself why it should even care at this point about the Dragon Reborn.
It almost feels as if it's the Wheel of Time with Moiraine as the main character. Like rewritten that way. Now, Moiraine is my fav, and I love her, but...everything being from her perspective give a very different feel than the book.
I'm having a huge problem with the intent given to the main protagonists. I have read what you said about Mat staying behind it felt more about showing his cowardice. Nope nah not gonna do that, turn and run....
Siaun and Moraines relationship doesn't bother me, just really unnecessary.
My feelings about the series, if this was a horse race, the main characters are still looking for there saddles in the stables but they are in the wrong town ,and have already been lapped by insignificance.
They were not pillow friends as I remember. Ask Tom and Garreth about Siaun and Moraine. How can they compete with the gratifications possible with the one power. LOL
@@jimguin4737 they were lovers in the books (read New Spring or check our RJ's interviews), but it's implied that this kind of died off as they went their own way on their quest (where Siuan had to stay in the tower and Moiraine got to go out). This sort of long range relationship could go both ways to be honest. Maybe they would still have it after 20 years (as neither of them ever has the time to get involved with anyone as they only have their common goal and that is everything). Maybe they just won't (relationships like that where they never really meet are hard to maintain). Rafe is going for the first version. RJ went for the second.
Guess it is time to re-read The New Spring. I knew how tight they were, but missed that part. I stand corrected. I have read the series 5 or 6 times, but only read The New Spring twice. Kind of like many have read Tolkien's trilogy dozens of times, but I doubt many have ready the Simarillion more than once. As I have said before, I'm just going to start looking at all this as a trip through the portal for Moiraine (flicker, flicker, flicker).
@@jimguin4737 I remember the pillow friends comment ( i think it was made by Alannah ), but the way it was used in the books made it seem a long long time ago and wasn't a thing any more, and that they both committed wholly to their plan for the Dragon Reborn as their great blue crusade and that feels reinforced during the clandestine meetings between Moiraine and Suian that they're now just Deep Friends rather than occasional lovers still with a grand plan. I haven't read a new spring, but that is also not a robert jordan book it's a Brandon Sanderson book so could be his interpretation of how things started.
Well said.
If they were already tainted enough to start going insane they stay that way even after they were gentle. That may not be 100% but it was in the illustrated guide and it was in the third edition D&D game of wheel of time. The taint that’s in them will fester
I started watching this series and loved it despite the pacing and characterization issues, when I heard it was based of a book series I just had to look it up.
Glad I found your channel, your remarks and analysis are very accurate and I agree with basically all of them despite just starting to read the series.
I started reading the comic adaptation, maybe you should do a review/comparison sometime, it's waaaay more faithful to the books in basically every aspect you've mentioned so far in these videos.
From what I've read so far, I'm amazed at the amount of content and nuance they cut from the show, Moiraine acting undercover, Tam's feverish confession, the talking Trolloc waiting for Rand to come back, Nynaeve being judged for her age, and of course, Thom Merrilin.
Also, as a corvid enthusiast, whats up with the thing with the ravens? I'm not sure if that's also from the books or if it's a comicbook exclusive prologue where we see Egwene getting stalked by a mysterious Raven (that also appears before the trolloc attack).
From the online scuttlebutt it sounds like this was the last episode with this actor playing Mat before they replaced the actor, since apparently he left between the filming of episodes 6 and 7. If they couldn't find an actor in time maybe it makes sense to remove him from the eye of the world stuff until hes recast for season 2?
Yes, this seems to be the consensus! I incorrectly thought he left *after* season 1 was done. That put the show runners in a super tight spot, so I'm way more sympathetic to that change now.
I’m a huge fan of the books. I’ve always said they never should make them into a movie or show. It’s just impossible. I think this debacle just proves my point. The only way it could ever work is as an animated series and even then it would take a huge budget. Sigh…
IDK, I think it could be adapted. I think there is easy ways to cut things out that aren't needed and still keep true to the story. Currently, after episode 6, I just don't think they've been making the right decisions.
Here's a thought experiment: Take every scene that they completely made up for this show and subtract it out of the running time. Look at how much time you have left. Amazing.
They are ruining this... I LOVE THESE BOOKS! There were nights where I could hardly get any sleep because I couldn't put these books down... But I am struggling to get myself to watch these Episodes... I truly understand how you are starting to feel about this..
It's just...disappointment. I don't hate the show or am angry about it like a lot of people. But it just had so much potential and it just feels like it's moving too far from the books at this point
Maybe it's because I haven't watched the show but I feel there's been absolutely no importance placed on Rands heron marked sword. That's such a legendary sword that draws so much attention and seeing Rand realize that and try to live up to it was such a delight to read about.
They wouldn't go more mad than they are after they are gentled. But whatever madness they accumulated remains. They also have to deal with a huge traume and constant withdrawal symptoms (for being cut off from the source) which could make them messed up and depressed at the very least (suicidal to just straight up mad).
Matt was one of my favorite characters in the books. I pray they don't ruin it 😖
They already have. They already have...
@@mpgnz73 😟
Six episodes is equivalent to 3 full-length movies. The Lord of the Rings was three full-length movies, only a bit longer, time wise, than what we have so far, and yet they managed to flesh out quite a few important characters. This is not the case with WoT. With all the side stories, ceremonies, flashbacks for side characters, long pauses and slow conversations, we still don't have a coherent developed group of main characters. This has gone beyond adaption or interpretation. This is bad writing.
I literally said this exact thing to my husband. By the end of this season, we will almost have as many hours as the three (non-extended) LOTR movies. That covered three books and gave us both tons of plot and insight into characters. I don't think this show is doing a good job at combining character and plot scenes to move things forward more quickly.
Ep. 6 is the episode the actor who plays Mat had to leave the show. He's been re-casted for season 2. The actor deleted all social accounts and no one knows why he left. But that's why he stayed behind
That's not a reason to stay behind, they could've shown him go through the portal and then replaced him next episode. Changing his entire story did not need to happen. Also, Moiraine has no objection? What if he's the Dragon and they need him at the Eye?
I am a little concern about the waygate change being that the way gate because they where created for the ogere who don't use the one power so how are they going to work that back in or do you think that will be one of the many things they changed and cut?
The thing with mat is because they lost the actor as far as I know
It's already confusing because they are using an Ogier to help them get through the ways. So...how did they use them...if you need the one power to open it? It doesn't make sense.
Remember they're going to have to start squeezing out multiple books a season (if the plot doesn't diverge a lot soon) because they're not getting 5+ seasons imo.
Also I can forgive the horses not going into the ways because they probably don't want to film with a bunch of horses indoors.
agree with the horse comment. That is a small change that really doesn't affect any major outcome. It was probably a logistical choice, as you say.
oh I didn't care about the horses lol, but the video is "all differences" so I tend to mention things even if I think the change makes sense.
I liked the first 4 episodes, even with differences between the books and the show, they were still good and coherent. I liked the 5th one until this one. Now I feel like episode 5 and 6 are fillers in an 8 episodes season!
The 4 from Edmond's field became side characters from their own story (10 min in an hour long episodes), that sad to watch. They are just boring and useless. Their only personality trait is to be the potential DR that's it, every time something to them happened the show was like "Is he th DR ????, cut to Moiraine and who the f sidekicks are with her, cut to the generic". I ask myself if is because Mat's actor had already left (so not enough scene) or because they had no idea what to do with them. In one case it is bad luck, in the other it is severe lack of writing skills.
One of my issues since the beginning is the plot of who is th DR, in the books it's never a question. They are all sort of special and the DR is discovered at the end because his abilities are unveil at the end. The books never tease that as a mystery. They ask the reader who can we trust, it is the whole point of Mat and Rand's journey.
What brings me to a part that bother me a lot, we have seen only like 2 dreams with the dark one and that's it. The fact that he can talk to the characters shows how powerful he is and lack of trust that some characters have toward Moiraine at the beginning of the story. He tells them a lot when Moiraine doesn't. He talk to the 3 of them, it is not even a spoiler for who is the DR.
We have a huge lack of fear of the villain. That's a huge constant in book one: everyone is afraid of the dreams with Balazamon. It's a real threat. It's been completely removed in favor of looking to other storylines.
Right now, I'm feeling like I *like* episodes 5 and 6...if they happened in season 2. What has happened in those two episodes that really needs to be done NOW except the Whitecloaks/perrin/egwene and Mat/Rand stuff? All this Tower politics could've easily been pushed to season 2, and make more sense.
Yes it has really bothered me that these interactions with Ba'alzamon aren't in there. The misleading truths and the lies he feeds them as he tries to manipulate them add a great deal to the tension and the plot. Fiery eye occasionally appearing and being briefly and obviously bad and threatening is not at all the same thing.
The nudity pissed me off. The episode was rated 13+. Luckily I watched this episode without my kids.
It’s so frustrating to me because I just don’t understand why they only did 8 episodes for this first season. With as MUCH material as there is, they really needed to have at least 10 episodes for this first season. It’s really aggravating me because, like you, I feel like they’re changing a lot and rushing to get in certain things when I feel like if we had at least 2 more episodes after 8, that would help. I don’t know it’s just annoying to me that for a show like this, they decided on 8 episodes. When I first found out there would only be 8 I was so bummed and worried about what that would mean. Granted, I am still enjoying the show, I think some of the changes are fine/good but some are a bit frustrating to me. Still, it all depends on how these last couple episodes go so we’ll see! Fingers crossed they do it justice!
Also- I’m soooo disappointed that Barney Harris left and won’t be returning, he’s grown really grown on me as Mat and I hate that I’ll now have to see someone else playing that character. I did hear that Barney Harris left the show very abruptly and no one has seen or heard from him so I, too, have real sympathy for the show runners as well as Barney Harris. I hope he’s ok and I hope the show runners were able to pick up the pieces in a smooth way.
5:59 - Another CZcamsr who's read the books made a good point about them using the Oath Rod here and that is....they wouldn't have to. They are already bound to tell the truth with the Three Oaths, so if an Aes Sedai gives an oath, word for word correctly, they would not need an additional binding to from the Oath Rod.
10:57 - Not only did the bathing scenes not make sense, but the books established quite clearly that this was not how most people in this world bathed. Notably, it's only the Aiel that bath in a manner like this which the Aes Sedai felt odd about when having to meet with them, (and again, here's another opportunity they could've meaningfully included the nudity). So yeah, this was a mistake and completely unnecessary. And Moiraine's and Siuan's relationship being elevated to this seems a very cheap way to establish the level of caring and how strong their relationship is. I agree with you, should have been left as a strong friendship.
There is a difference between making a Truthful promise and taking a vow though. The three oaths compel truthful speech, not action. What was unnecessary was the consequence of breaking the oath, because the rod supposedly would even allow that to happen.
Does Moraine even visit the Tower throughout the entire series? I'm pretty sure she doesn't...
Thanks for taking the bullet for this; I bailed from this mess after episode 3 because it's only "loosely" based on WoT and I hate that the ACTUAL main characters are getting such short shrift.
It's hard because I sort of blend the end of book 2 when they are at the Blight/Amarylin is there versus when they get to the tower. I think you may be right - I think all the Moiraine/Suian scenes happen at the blight and they ask her to return but she doesn't.
@@Bookborn Right. She was going back with them to the Tower in TGH, but then bailed without telling anyone, which did honk Suian off from my memory. Then M was with Rand up until Cairhien in book 5 & the crooked door. Don't recall if she ever returned to TV after Mat rescued her...
Rereading the series now - the show disgusted me so much that I needed to get the bad taste out - and into tFfH now...
@@philnorfleet1371 M is all about the Dragon and preparing him for what he must become. She did not want him within a 1000 miles of the nest of vipers she knew the WT to be, and she knows full well that the things he is prophesied to do require him to be free of the White Tower and out and about in the world doing stuff.
So no, if Moiraine was ever in the tower (and I don't think she was), it was not by her choice.
And Lan absolutely despises the place.
@@nathanmorgan3647 eh ? Pretty sure they were going to tar valon before eye of the world came up buz she would have probably sneaked them in/kept them outside the tower or something idk but yeah most of these changes feel really unnecessary and forced to just make the show more like game of thrones
As far as the relationship between Siuan and Moiraine, Jordan did clarify this in a blog post in 2005: “Pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce.”
Yeah, I mention in this video that I knew they were pillow friends and assumed that meant hooking up! (I think it's pretty clear in the book tbh, that that's what it means lol) So, it's not that the relationship in the show is unsubstantiated - it def has textual support - it's just that when they were older, we don't see them in that relationship anymore. Just took me by surprise, is all. I pictured Moiraine as more aromantic in most of the series as she was so "married" to her mission with the Dragon Reborn.
@@Bookborn I do not disagree with your opinion of Moiraine. Kind of saw it that way myself.
After last week's episode I made promise to myself that I'd let the books go. This is not pretty much a different if parallel story. So now I'm trying to just watch this as a fantasy series and pretend Jordon's work was a suggestion for them. I know in part some of that is unfair because I do think they are trying to do the main plotline, but they've changed so much I can't cling to the old story or I'll be yelling at the TV the whole time. Saves me a bit of mental stress. I really like your comparisons, but like you, I have no idea where they are going with some things now and that will make your job more difficult.
there was a point where you said we aint focusing on the main 5
nynaeve is second for screentime only behind moiraine
RAND . IS . THIRTEENTH.
shambles
wow
Rand. Who's Rand? He doesn't seem important to this book series 🙃
"why haven't we seen any novices or accepted yet...?" There was one scene with novices passing Moraine in the opposite direction, in one of the halls of the White Tower, in one of the previous episodes. They were three women, dressed in white, and they glanced back at her as they passed. But I agree, we haven't seen many. And the White Tower should certainly look far busier, as you said. They're making it seem a bit like a mausoleum.
Also agree there should have been more plot development, and more focus on Rand&company. Moraine finding out about the Eye of the World thru their dreams is much cooler and richer than her simply announcing she knows they need to go there. Plus it motivates *why* all of them need to go.
There weren't any Accepted in Book 1 so they are staying true to the books there. And there are only about 400 Aes Sedai in the tower , have you seen how big it is... you'd be lucky to run into anyone
And why they are all WILLING to go. All understanding in their own way that duty calls and the fate of the world rests with them. That's alot better than Nynaeve saying they all won't go unless they know why, AFTER THEY LET THE HORSES RUN AWAY, and Moiraine's pitiful speech.
(Back to horses, the Dark One himself couldn't stop Mandarb from following Lan into danger. God this is such garbage)
i could be wrong but if i remember right this is a nod to something you find out later in the books. Liandrin's "man" being referred to is (unknown to moiraine) a.. um.. "friend" .. you might say >.>.. posing as a secret lover
Hello i doubt you will see this but honestly the last high fantasy book series i read was wheel of time can you or anyone else recommend another good one new or old thanks a ton