S2: Wheel of Time show vs book: all the differences (E5)
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- Today we look at episode five of season 2 of the Amazon Prime show Wheel of Time and how it compares with the book, The Great Hunt by Robert Jordan. Did I skip any differences you wanted to talk about? Tell me about it in the comments below!
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
00:13 - Plot changes
05:01 - My opinion on the changes
Other episodes
Episode 1: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 2: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 3: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 4: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 6: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
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Instagram: / bookborn.reviews - Zábava
"A big oopsie" is a helluva way to describe Lanfears actions in the age of legends lmao
I was hoping book fans would find that funny 🤣🤣
I have not read the books. I am watching the show with my boyfriend. His favorite series is the Wheel of Time. While I love reading, it is just not high up on my priority list, so I thought this would be a good way to be a part of something he loves so much (he hates that it is so different and keeps telling me to just read the books). I think my problem is Amazon doesn’t know their audience. As someone who doesn’t know anything about Wheel of Time, I am constantly feeling lost. They introduce people and places and concepts with little to no explanation and so I’m constantly trying to catch up or having to ask my bf what is that, who is this? I feel like the show expects you to already know all of these things so when they brush by it, you understand exactly what’s going, which means they made the show for readers. EXCEPT, every reader I’ve listened to largely dislikes this show for how many liberties it took and most of them say it is not a Wheel of Time adaptation. The show has alienated a lot of readers, and leaves non-readers like me confused so honestly, I’m not sure who they made this for.
Yeah the show somehow is confusing to both audiences. It expects book knowledge for many things while at the same time going so off course from the books. It's very odd
Very insightful comment thank you for sharing! My friend who hasn’t read the book texted me tonight and said episode 5 was confusing, which I laughed since it was one of my favs. You’re right in that the shoe simultaneously relies on knowledge from book fans but alienates them at the same time.
@@Bookborn I had a similar experience with GOT having initially belonged to the non-reader category
What things were confusing?
I am in the opposite situation. I watch with my bf, I read up to book 5 and he hasnt read anything.
During episode 5 we had to stop the episode and I had to give him a 10 minutes lectures on who is who and what is what because he was really really confused.
and I was confused about his reaction becaue same as @Bookborn I was thinking, oh this episode is really good!
Appreciate your thoughts, as always. At the risk of being the typical bookcloak, I think this episode is tricking viewers into thinking it was some vast improvement when all that really happened was that it had some more action scenes, which made it more interesting than previous episodes which dragged on.
It's true that we're finally getting the girls plot beats moving - they've been betrayed by Liandrin and are now in Falme. Great. But as always, the boys are an afterthought. Rand is in a lot of scenes, but not as an active main character. He basically takes his lead from a woman, either Lanfear or now Moiraine, goes where he is told, runs when needed, and looks pouty, anxious or sad when the script tells him to. He doesn't actually *do* anything of his own volition - he makes no choices, faces no challenges on his own, learns nothing new, has no dedicated action scenes or achievements. He's just... there in the scene because the script needs him to be. Note that he would also fail a reverse Bechdel test in every scene he is in - his character is literally defined by a) Egwene, b) Lanfear, c) Moiraine. They are all he talks about, he is always following one of them around, and they decide where he goes, what he does next, and why he does it.
Perrin is at least getting some quality time with Elyas, and finally has his first fight since episode 1 of season 1 (think about that carefully, Perrin not having fought in 1 and a half seasons of TV - mind you Rand hasn't either except for Winternight and beating up/killing the sanatorium orderly). But still, Perrin is also just led everywhere. As with Rand, and Mat, he doesn't act like a main character - no choices, no challenges, and when he finally gets his second fight scene in 13 episodes, he takes a back seat to Aviendha - the brand new character. Still, at least he appears to be over his whole 'Way of the Leaf/I can't fight to defend my friends' arc which was seriously holding him back. Hopefully he goes on to improve and come into his own, making more of his own choices and actions and just maybe finding an axe.
And then there's Mat. Maybe I'm biased because Thom and Mat are two of my favourite characters in the books, but the show continues to give me the impression the writing room really don't like Mat and would write him out of the story if they could get away with it. He has done *nothing* all season. They can't blame the loss of S1's actor - Donal has been in the cast all season. They just don't let him do anything. He was in Tar Valon, but they didn't give him his famous qstaff fight against Galad and Gawyn... why? They had screen time for an invented sword fight between Nynaeve and Alanna's Warders, but they couldn't find the same time for Mat? Since they say this season compresses TGH and TDR, they could have had Mat learn about Liandrin kidnapping the girls somehow, and have him embark on a rescue attempt to Falme (since it is unlikely he gets to do the same to Tear).
But no, they just have him as a sad prisoner of Liandrin for the first half of the season, then have Min dupe him into leaving, passing up the opportunity for his qstaff fight or comforting Egwene, to send him (offscreen) to Cairhien for... reasons? I think it's just so he can arrive in time to meet Rand and jump into the Ways to go to Falme for the finale. Sure, it looks from teasers they do actually let him blow the Horn of Valere but... is that really a character arc? Does that justify having the character in the story?
I've heard WoT fans say 'OK, they're ignoring Mat, but as long as he blows the horn all is forgiven.' I don't understand why WoT fans settle for so little. No, that's not enough. In a show where a minor character like Linadrin gets a fully fleshed out plot arc, complete with sick son and probably redemption arc, to give a main character like Mat so little is just wrong. It's not just incompetent, it comes across as malicious.
Anyway, thanks for listening to my Ted talk. ;) As always, keep up the post-episode videos, please.
You’re not wrong on most accounts. Mat is my second favourite character, behind Rand, and it’s quite upsetting that he’s not getting the amount of screen time that he needs, because the showrunners decided to focus more on a side character.
Tbf with the Rand thing it’s kind of in book three where he fully takes on the role of the dragon reborn and becomes an independent actor making plans etc for himself so it’ll be interesting to see if that’s where his arc is going here
Rafe is a devout feminist and has stated that he was going to inject his politics into the show. You can think of him as a devout Red Sister, a man hater. Every male in this show is a simp. Even when Ba'alzamon comes to Rand while he's sleeping it looks like he's going to kiss him. It's pathetic.@@mihaigiboi2758
I want to say that I agree with you on your points, and mostly on your comments about “hitting certain notes” vs “settling”. I don’t want to curtail anybody’s enjoyment of this or any shows you like. That is your right and you have a choice to like something, but I am demanding of the media I consume because I want it to make sense. While not waiting for 1:1. I do expect that the adaptation stays true to the themes and characters, and that there is consistency. The most glaring one to me is the apparent lack of differences between Saidar and Saidin in the main show (the shorts talked about it but they are not the show), that the Dragon is so scary because it would go mad, that apparently on S1 horses cannot go on The Ways, but on S2 they can, I can go on.
I was willing to give this show the benefit of the doubt, and for the first three episodes, I tried to enjoy it. After the cold opening on episode 4 I started to be more critical because the plot seemed to complacent to move on. It certainly seems encouraging that we finally get an episode in which things are moving, but there is still the lack of consistency and the added/repeated storylines that keep interfering with the plot.
The thing that bothers me the most (aside from the snails pace of the plot) is how Rand feels like an after thought even though he is the main character of the books and the show keeps saying how he's so important, yet they barely spend any time on him.
My goodwill for this season is slowly running thin... There is a bunch of good and it is an improvement over the first season, but this season feels so drawn out despite there only being three episodes left. And considering how much they have to cover to get to the end, I have a feeling the climax is going to be horribly rushed.
I completely agree about the last three episodes. This episode had a lot of great stuff in it but it should've come WAY earlier in the season. I truly feel that they just sort of wasted time for four episodes, which you just don't have time for in an 8 episode season!
@@Bookborn That's the most annoying part of this season (and I think the show as a whole). When they stick to the books or they make an adaptation change that is logical and fits the established lore from the books (e.g. the Manetheren song from season 1), the show is quite interesting. When the show shuffles it feet by showing us sad Lan, or sad Moiraine, or Perrin has one conversation with Elyas per episode, or Rand walks about and bangs Celine, it's so dull to watch because I feel like nothing is happening. When we get scenes like Nyneve's trial through the arches, or when the ladies are sold to the Seanchen, or Moriane slits Lanfear's throat, the show tricks you into thinking it's really pushing forward the plot when in actuality, only 3 or 4 things of significance happens per episode.
I really hope all the action in Falme isn't just in the final episode, and if it is, it better be worth sitting through all this boring fluff.
If it is like the climax in season 1, we can expect some tower drop outs or something to steal Rand's scenes again.
Rafe's favourite character is clearly Nynaeve.
Three episodes left. A major plot line for Egwene. Running out of time to really drive home the Rand and Mat plotlines.
@@HamzaBoujelouah Rafe said he'd insert his feminist agenda and this is what we get. Mat? Character assassinated. Perrin? Character assassinated. Rand? Side character to moiraine. Moiraine? Main character. Liandrin? Main character, somehow nice and morally gray even though she's basically a complete bitch in the books. Nynaeve? Main Character, apparantly not a wilder anymore . Egwene? Main character who can resurrect the fucking dead.
I think the actor playing Ishamael is really killing it! One of the things that hurt Season 1 was the lack of an overarching villain, and he's doing a good job being intimidating and feeling like the Big Bad of Season 2.
Definitely, the show has a lot of strong actors that are really help sell it
Personally, I think Tom Hiddleston (Loki from Marvel) or Sam Claflim (Oswald Mosley from Peaky Blinders) would have made a more impactful performance.
@@mihaigiboi2758disagree. This show needs to stand on its own merits not be compared by an actor who plays a similar role for a different franchise.
We all have head cannon of the perfect casting but in reality short of Dance and Bean, GOT had very under established actors in role.
Ishamael appearing in every scene is confusing.
He also doesn’t seem like a bad guy.
@@jsbrads1Father of Lies, remember? ;)
My reaction to this episode was the same as Lanfear's reaction at the end of the episode. Finally! Something happened, and we can finally move the plot back on track. Seriously though, not moving the plot for half the season, putting in a bunch of filler nonsense, and then pretending that they need to cut things is just total BS.
I think it's how audiences get manipulated nowadays. Do boring stuff for the first half, then pick up the pace a little and then have a banger of a final episode with the inevitable cliffhanger. And the audience should walk away on a high, praising a great season.
Because the audience are idiots, right? Right?
RoP was the same. So much boring crap in the first half with the halffoots and the orcs and then near the end we got the "amazing" creation of Mordor and the "shocking" revelation of who Sauron was because we "all" thought it was the Gandalf guy. Total BS.
The art of weaving a story together with great characters and meaningful consequences is lost on these big studios.
Agree with almost everything you say, and boredom will kill this series faster than even book divergences will. As for not being able to hear it, I watch so often with Closed Captioning turned on that I almost forget they are on but something feels off when the CC is off! Give it a try, at least on scenes you have to rewind. After Ep 4 I was almost done…but Ep 5 was seriously great and the first time from S1 or S2 that I felt like I was watching The Wheel of Time! But it’s done in 3 episodes and another freaking year til S3…they need MORE episodes (10 at a minimum) and better writers and directors; not sure if Ep5 was due to writing or Direction or a combo of both but this episode is what the series should be every week!!!
I also use the subtitles, mainly for the unfamiliar words and to hopefully see the names of the characters that are speaking.
I don't understand why they are trying to make the Aes Sedai so much older than in the books. Moiraine seemingly twice her age, Verin just said she is "hundreds" of years old. At this rate Cadsuane and the members of the Kin are going to be from Artur Hawkwing's time lmao. If that is the case there should be a lot more Aes Sedai as they are around a lot longer than in the books.
Just like the Witcher. Just like Loki, Just like Obi-Wan. Another pattern. Clear and you nailed it politely. I'm past politeness on that topic.
lol "timelines arent timelining"
. Im stealing that line.
It's actually incredible how many times the 180 rule is broken in that Aviendiha fight. It's impossible to tell where anyone is in relation to anyone else at any point in that fight. The actual fight choreography is... maybe good? Who can even actually tell when it's impossible to follow what is happening scene to scene.
Seriously go back and check. It starts off pretty bad but when it gets down to Aviendha v Bornhold one on one it goes insane.
It’s funny, I’m not someone who ever noticed or cares about fight choreography (just not my expertise at all) and even I turned to my husband while watching and said “wow that fight scene isn’t very good” which stinks because I loved their last Aiel fight scene!
That was one of the first thing I learned for 3d animation and game design. Funny that they don't know about it
After this episode, my husband (who hasn't read the books) was complaining that it just felt like everyone was spinning their wheels and didn't have a goal, so I think this was definitely a big one for us book readers because we finally got a lot of the culture from the books that hadn't really been addressed in the show so far (the Horn of Valere, the sul'tam, more about the Seanchan and their politics, Tel'aran'rhiod). For me, seeing all of that stuff brought to life was what had me excited for the show adaptation in the first place.
Yes, they have Barthanes as Moiraine's nephew instead of cousin in the show. Probably because they aged up Moiraine. Jay Duffy is Dain Bornhald.
I think the idea of Liandin just randomly attacking the 3 girls out of no where, tying them up and dragging them through the ways while TELLING them she is Black Aja is just plain idiotic. At least in the book she gave them a credible reason to follow her and it was only after they exited the way that they realized that she had betrayed them, by which time it was obviously too late. It was that reveal that caused Nynaeve to lose her sh!t and start to pummel the Seanchan with the power allowing both her and Elayne to escape. The show had it all set up for them with the way Liandrin was working with Nynaeve so much (which she NEVER did in the books) that now it would be even MORE likely that they would believe her and follow her into the ways. But now, they couldn't even get that sh!t right.
The Mat stuff kinda blows my mind because so far it feels like they're meandering him along because they don't have anything for him to do but like he literally started off the season in the Tower exactly like how he did In the dragon reborn, which was technically his first storyline in the books. Like you literally could have had him do his dragon reborn storyline with Thom and save the stone of tear half of that storyline for season 3.
He has to blow the horn at falme. So they had to get him out of the tower but his lack of screen time is troubling.
I have no clue why they made him fully healed from the dagger when that was his entire motivation in the great hunt. The writers made more work for themselves by doing that
@@goldenchildgaming3582 Exactly this! What even is his motivation right now? Could easily have had him and Liandrins story be that she still senses Machin shin within him hence why he needs to find Padan Fain.
So the craziest thing I learned from another content creator is in this season, if you hit pause, you’ll see the map, and it tells you where they are. This started this season, and it even tells you when they’re in tel'aran'rhiod. I was having a hard time, too.
What map? Where? Hitting pause does nothing to me in my app.
@@csarmii that’s odd if it works only when watching with a fire stick? It pops up with the rest of the X-Ray info.
@@anjelsedaiI doN't know. I'm watching on tablet or PC.
For some reason I saw these but thought it had to do with the music or sound in the background. Thanks for the explanation!
I feel like many of the systems in place in the WoT world were not properly introduced and are now rushed or feel inconsistent. I would think non book readers would have a really hard time understanding these things, but I won't speak for them. This is just my opinion.
- TAR should have been introduced and fleshed out more much earlier
- The 2 halves of the one power not being talked about much at all as separate things
- Perrin's wolf stuff feels rushed and should have had much more development in s1
- The Sul'dam and Damane collar/mouthpiece thing that you complained about
- We're told Cuendillar can't be broken by the power, but Ishamael seems to free Lanfear this way instead of the Dark One's presence weakening the seals. This also removes some of Lanfear's agency imo because she is not really a pawn of Ishamael.
- Death feels like an inconvenience. In just one and a half seasons, so many major characters have died and come back to life. Lan, Moiraine, Nynaeve 2x, Loial, Uno 2x, Lanfear, am I missing any? Feels like there are no stakes
- Ta'veren stuff
I'm sure I'm missing many more things, but this world is very complicated and I feel like they haven't done a good job of explaining or showing all these systems. And failure to set this up in season 1 is leading to repercussions in this season. I really badly want to enjoy this show but it feels like things fall apart if you ask any questions about them.
I've come to realise that they are relying on US book readers to both fill in the blanks for ourselves when the plot isn't plotting, AND give context to newcomers, either through comments in their videos, or "deep dive reviews". The show doesn't _have_ to do the heavy lifting because we're doing it _for_ them (or they're doing it in X-ray videos )
It may be just me, but I feel like this is the opposite of GoT where book fans were purposefully _withholding_ context from the newcomers because seeing them discover the lore on their own was so much fun...
@@bidossessi I couldn't agree more. I needed no basic explanations to follow the GoT plotlines and systems as a non reader. Anything I didn't understand was almost always intentionally mysterious or vague
So many great points that I agree with. These changes would be more acceptable for me if what they replaced it with was actually competent, but it's mostly not. Also, we now have 3 Nynaeve fake out deaths because her not coming back from the rings counts as another.
It may be hard to understand for us book-readers but I think that some things just don't matter that much if you don't know them. E.g. the two halves of the one power: if you only watch the show you probably think that there is just one power for man and women alike (after all it is called the One Power, isn't it). And men go crazy using it because of a curse or something involved that affects only men. Well, is that really a big problem? The important thing is that men that channel go crazy, the details of why they go crazy are not that important for the story. And even the concept of the cleansing of the one power would still be understandable. So they left it out. Its a level of detail the showrunners apparently felt was not necessary. And they might be right on this one.
@@gildor8866 I just think it's such a fundamental aspect of the story that can't be looked over. Saidin and Saidar have their strengths and weaknesses, limitations, etc. They are different in the way they are embraced. Men have to sieze and battle to embrace Saidin while Women have to submit and open themselves up to Saidar. These kinds of details are important imo to how the characters interact with both the power and each other.
If it were just a few changes I would be on board, but so many of these little changes add up and just lead to frustration for me. Like I said before, I feel like if you ask any questions the show starts to not make any sense
It is strange that the elephant in the room is that Ishamael is present when Padan gives the horn. But why did he not take for him? It is very powerful artifact and every forsaken would hunt for it? And they still did not explained why is horn is important and how it's working
I think they did in episode 1 of this season (probably info-dump Loial) but I'd have to check.
@@bidossessi Don't think they did. only that it was for the DR.
And yeah, Ishamael not simply taking the horn is beyond stupid.
If Lan was with Moiraine that horse would have lived
Justice for Lan! Justice for horsie! Justice for Bela who has gotten no screen time!
This episode was the first I actually enjoyed. I felt weight of characters actions, things are finally moving. I just finished reading the Great Hunt today.
Yes, the finally moving and coming together feels SO good
Non-book reader here, just checking in! I honestly LOVED this episode. It stinks that it doesn't follow the books the way fans wanted, but I've enjoyed this season so much more than S1. Whatever they're doing, it's working for me.
Honestly it's probably a good show if you didn't read the books and weren't hyped for it to follow them. My brain just kinda jams up on a lot in it.
I haven’t read books and I enjoy series a lot. I appreciate the costumes, characters and grandeur of locations. I have no expectations so just enjoying it. I usually watch it twice in case I miss details.
My sister complained that she was confused about locations. I didn't have that feeling, but I suspect that a portion of the audience feels this way. The show could help by showing the map in the start of each episode instead of their present graphics and , maybe, having brief pictures of the settings of different locations. Readers had the option of referring to the maps in the books to orient themselves. A visual map might be helpful to show watchers.
Another thing that GoT got right by making the map part of the opening credits.
Thank you for this! I love WoT content, and you definitely have a great perspective! A retcon that is easily missed, is Liandrin takes horses into The Ways
I use subtitles. Yes, Barthanes
Def use subtitles! It is incredibly helpful.
I did not like Lanfear's 'fit at the end. It seemed too 'goth girl' to realistically be in a fantasy tv show.
Just chiming in to agree - subtitles. Especially nowadays the dynamic range of shows like this (and movies) is all over the place and I guarantee you will miss stuff without subtitles. It also helps with character identification - for instance the subtitles said Dain was speaking before he said his name. Technically it’s a spoiler but like… for 2 minutes from then 😂
Ok why did I not think of subtitles, literally the simplest of solutions. THANK YOU.
Also me and @fantasyawash were laughing so much over that outfit like 🥲🥲 WHAT WAS THAT
Yep, now horses can go into the ways when it's convenient...
@@Bookborn After seeing more reactions, it is clear they are merging Semi with Lanfear, but there was literally 0 indication of this personality trait ahead of time. Maybe if they made Selene kinky it would be more believable.
Edit***
But this feels like forced fan service.
Another reason for the improvement for this episode (it’s the least bad episode for me so far) is that many of the plotlines actually somewhat followed the source material. Had the showrunners kept up with this approach, and not waste time with new plotlines, aka the warders, the show would have seen a massive improvement in my opinion.
Yeah and also I'm worried they didn't properly set up some stuff in this episode for non book readers. There was a lot of info and I feel like if you didn't already have outisde knowledge it might be hard to keep up
@@Bookbornoh big time. Every time they’d do a series of name drops, like Saldea, Cadsuane, any additional names of the forsaken, I couldn’t help but think “there’s no way a casual viewer knows what they are.”
@@mihaigiboi2758To be fair, wasn't that the same in the books? All those names never meant anything to readers either (not to me at least) until the characters actually showed up. If at all and not just in told stories about told stories or such.
Did it? I dont recall Moiraine cutting a horses throat while stilled, being chased by Lanfear followed by Rand only being a side character to Moiraines political/family turmoil.
My favourite part was Aviendha full on punching a soldier wearing platemail and not shattering her hand into splinters.
But hey, it's been a while since I specifically read book 2.
Absolute iredeemable garbage.
@@JohnTCampbell1986 I agree with you on all those accounts. Moiraine killing a horse was stupidly unnecessary, especially since Lanfear ended up getting a horse anyway! 🤦
Rand being sidelined in his own story is also infuriating. He should be in a leading role at this point. It’s not as if Moiraine was setting him up to be one in the books or anything 🙄.
Don’t get me started with Aviendha. The background music during that fight scene was jarring, in that it didn’t fit the tone of the story at all. Her personality is also way off. She’s way too playful, at least to strangers, compared to her book counterpart.
There’s a reason why I said this was the least bad episode of the season.
Not a book reader here. I've entirely given up on trying to follow where in the world they are. I am realizing how genius Game of Thrones was with their intro map. Not having that reference point for Wheel of Time is making me very confused about the geography. Also the timelines are confusing. It feels like Perrin just left that village yesterday and now he's back and its under new management? And that army has travelled thousands of miles back to their base in Folm (sp?) in that time?
It's not thousands of miles. More like 30-50.
Pull up a WoT map online; will definitely help ground the story for you.
Thank you for talking about the collar issue, they literally used the line from the book where in the show they didn't show the women getting collared lol . Also the thing where moiraine calls Lews therin the dragon reborn instead of the dragon..these details are grating as a book reader.
Oh also want to add after you mentioned not knowing where they are - would so love it if they used the Map from every book just to zoom out out and zoom in on the map then fade into the scene with a label “Falme” or “The White Tower”, etc. not only would it help us understand where the characters/ chess pieces are and what the world they inhabit is like, but also to appreciate how much “real world” travel time is saved by using the Ways, World,of Dreams, Travelling or any of the other options should they be used. This is a major oversight in my opinion to exclude the Map especially as it was included in every book and truly helped make the world feel real. And once they establish it is Earth it is almost fun trying to figure out if this or that place may have once been a location we are familiar with (or at least I loved wondering about such things).
100% agree. Such an easy and visually appealing fix.
Ebou Dar feels like New Orleans to me, though Tear is closer geologically.
Rand is the main character? Are you sure? ;)
You are a LOT more forgiving to this ... show than I am. Thanks for jumping on this grenade for me because I'm not bothering to watch any of the show - I bailed after ep3 of season 1 - despite having been a fan since I first read EOTW back in 1990...
So here's the thing. I hate the show. But I love your reviews. You really are the only one at this point who doesn't completely shit on the show and is negative. Negativity is quite gross in a constant drip. Critique is good but being so full with hate over some expensive stage play is childish.
Keep up the positive vibes!
Edit: book reader here. Robert Jordan changed my life with his books, and led me to discovering Sanderson ❤
If you want some more positive takes on the show, check out the duo videos Philip Chase and A Critical Dragon are doing. They’re alternating between their 2 channels so… just look, you’ll find them lol. They’re both pretty positive on the show, and they do some great analysis!! They’re also both book readers and fans btw
@slidenaway fun, I'll check them out. Appreciate the recs. I'll always watch Daniel Greene too but ...yeah.. just seems a little paid off. Probably isnt, he probably appreciates the art. But I can't tell if it's genuine so it doesn't feel genuine.
@@Osyrous really… Daniel has been so negative at times. I do not understand how anyone could think Daniel has possibly been paid off, or isn’t being totally honest about his feelings 😬
@slidenaway been watching him for years, and his demeanor has a blind spot to the show. Like I said its a maybe but just a feeling. I always trust my gut on things. No proof to offer, and I don't think I can qualm your wonder.
Thank you! I try very hard to be measured and so I appreciate the notice
I liked this one better, probably best so far and i am pretty sure it's because no-one had the opportunity to destroy Lan or Mat any further than they already have. It's a sad state of affairs to realise that tbh.
Your so right, so many plotlines have dragged on...and on and on and on and on....
To be over half way through season two and still have it feel like they're only setting things up is definitely inefficient story telling. In both seasons the episodes where something actually feels like the story moves forward feel the best. Unfortunately, it seems like only one or two episodes from each season have done so. Ep04 in season one, (maybe Ep08 of you can get over the mess of it). And Ep03, Nynaeve's testing, and Ep05 in season two.
I'd would, however, hazard that if you're not a WoT book-reader, you'd have no idea why everyone if flocking towards Falme. Also, there has been _no_ sense of urgency towards retrieving the Horn of Valere. Perrin's motivation, in the show, is only revenge on Padan Fain, seemingly. And no one else is like, "Holy sh!t, we need to get the Horn back!".
R.I.P. Gaul.... (Actually, I won't be surprised if Gaul shows up because I don't think Rafe will be able to resist the relationship between Gaul, Bain and Chiad).
100% would recommend watching with subtitles. I also watch on amazon prime and when you pause it they say character names. Really both helpful for keeping track of things. Love these videos as much as the show, thank you!
Love these 🙌
After seeing what the show runners and writers have given us so far, I wish they had started the series with New Spring. It's short enough to cover in 8 episodes without skipping important beats. They could've focused on Moiraine and Lan, they could have fleshed out warder stuff, tower politics, etc. They could have still included the Blood Snow scene. And there's probably still time to make up new stuff out of whole cloth, maybe including some scenes leading up to M+L entering the Two Rivers.
It could've been a much more focused and coherent story.
Yes, if Amazon wanted to make it the Moiraine show, they should have started with New Spring.
Loved episode 5! Def set up but really interesting!
I glad they reconned the mouth piece for the collar. The mouth piece would never work for major plot lines later in the books.
Totally but also they didn’t really because in this episode there were mouth pieces? Idk I don’t get it 😭
omg yes, had to pause to comment.. the book line about leashing was just memberberries, i mean at this point if i was a non reader all ive seen were really bad ball gags? then 30 minutes later they leash egwene and i'm like.. ok.. why not do this in the village episode to give newbie watchers an understanding, or.. show, before you drop that book line aka tell... and now back to the video (hope you enjoyed your vacation)
Or just have them on normal leashes From the beginning and do a single close up like it wouldn’t take much 😭
This show is getting much better (not a book reader). There are still a lot of characters and it can be hard to follow them all, but there has been sufficient development that I feel like I know who most of them are now lol
I also think that they haven’t really show how powerful/knowledgeable, and terrifying the forsaken are. They could have shown this by not taking away Moiraine’s Power, and just shown how much more Lanfear can do than Moiraine. Having moiraine unable to channel still doesn’t work for me and I don’t see the reason. I suspect that Rand will remove Moiraine’s shield at some point, but as you said, the storytelling decisions just don’t make sense.
I was sure Ishamael was going to feed the child's arm to the trolloc in the opening episode but he didn't and now I think he's just a talkative wuss. The show has told me that he's the big bad guy but he hasn't done anything to explain why, other than the blood lady seems a bit scared of him.
Honestly, this show would almost be as effective if they just put up a bullet point presentation for 5 minutes to tell us what we need to know this episode.
Yay, a Friday night surprise! Love the shirt!! Okay now to the video lol...
Why thank you I bought it yesterday 🤣
I have only read Eye of the World and it was a few years ago- and I think this episode was the best one yet.
When they took the horses I thought, "she can teleport, Moiraine! Why bother killing the last horse?", then she didn't Travel which confused me. The powers of the Forsaken seem at once op and limited. I don't get it. But season 2 has been far better than season 1 although it has some corny lines (I am a monster too). It's more measured, long episodes, but it makes good use of the time. I'm starting to like it but I do agree that splitting the Emond's Field 5 this much was a mistake. Also agree that Rand has been shafted as a character. He's blown this way and that, with little agency.
How would traveling help with finding them?
Hurrah for the community bookborn discussion! I have to go and read the books!
You are REALLY good at this! I wish someone else had the budget and the professional capacity to actually give this book series justice. So many readers waited so long for this, and it’s like we’re living in a perpetual state of tension and denial because we want so much to like it, but it keeps finding new ways to disappoint us! 😂 … by the way, this is my first actual comment on this whole ordeal, which is why you’re having to read an end of season 1 kind of comment on your S2 Ep5 post hahaa. The fact that we even came back after the end of S1 proves just how desperate we are for an even half-way decent rendition of this masterfully written book series.
Amazon execs wanted the show to be changed, it never would have been the books.
For people in that culture, their fist and last thought would be to take the extra horse with them. Soldiers always brought multiple mounts. However, it is cinematic to have a rider without extra mounts, much like how they take so little gear with them while they traipse about the countryside.
Ive only read Eye of the World so far, and I think season 2 has been awesome so far. Worlds better than season 1 at any rate
Def an improvement over season 1, I agree
Season 1 set the bar so low though.
Best ep so far!
It’s been a while since I read the books - I don’t remember Ba’alzamon nor his embodiment (Fares Fares) being so omnipresent.
I rewatched episode four before watching five. With your criticism of the Warder storyline in mind, it seemed they put all of that filler in only to open Lan's saddlebag at the end to read the prophecy he'd stolen from Moirane and say the name "Lanfear". I wonder how they are going to get Rand and Mat on the other side of the continent to do very important book stuff in the remaining episodes.
Closed captions are a must for this show.
Overall I liked this episode, although I agree about the mouth thing with the Seanchan being a weird choice. I did think it was interesting that Moghedien and Graendal were name dropped in this episode. Since they have been avoiding saying there are thirteen Forsaken, I am assuming some will be dropped from the show, so it is interesting having confirmation of some that will be included.
The young fancy boy is Barthanes (Will Tudor). Jay Duffy plays Dain Bornhald.
I’m confused on one HUGE difference we need to mention. The dream world in the books was not automatically entered by anyone dreaming. People would only accidentally dream themselves into it. This is the waiting for Rand to sleep plot did not occur.
Or is it because he’s the dragon and could use the dream world? Don’t know but doesn’t seem like they are making that distinction (between dreams and dream world being separate things).
I think they could do a Sherlock Holmes style show with Verin, I love her portrayal in this show!
They lost me at the end of last season, but I've been following a few reviewers for season 2, and yours are definitely my favorite!
I feel like we come from a similar perspective, even if I don't agree with every point you've made, and it's really refreshing to see someone so well versed in the books to see that the biggest issue is with the sloppy storytelling rather than the quality of the adaptation (although that's also so weak it's more "inspired by" Wheel of Time rather than an adaptation - particularly with how significantly they've changed the lore and character motivations/personalities). But I'm right there with you on pretty much all of this based on the summaries of the episode I've seen.
Honestly this episode has gotten such good reviews by so many people that I'll likely watch this by itself (a few weeks after the finale... Don't want to give it viewership numbers that aren't truly warranted).
You are spot on with your Rand comments. They’re treating him like a minor character. I feel like they’ve given Nynaeve’s character triple the screen time.
"All the city sets look the same." Yeah, because the show is made by people who've only been to New York, LA, and Seattle. If they'd gone to Charleston, they'd understand Tanchico.
the more episodes that come out, the more i am convince that the writers are Red Ajah
Black. From the Red!
If you pause the video it will show you the character names and actors that are in the current scene ; also if subtitles are on it will sometimes give the name of the speaker
I think the problem is that you have a few people on the show who read the books and a bunch that didn't. The many are getting more of what they want then the few but they are painting themselves into corners. It feels like season 6 and 7 of Game of Thrones in the first 2 seasons of this. They are going to end up just hammering round stuff into square holes on lots of stuff.
I was okay with Moiraine killing the horse, mainly because we didn't get the scene from EotW where she tells the boys that she will kill them before she lets the dark one have them
She says it to Siuan but yeah. I thought it was clever and then Lanfear said clever a minute later haha
Amen!
Many disappointments for me in an Episode with plenty of potential.
And like you said, they come mostly from the internal illogic of the TV Show, rather than Adaptation issues.
Both the Lanfear Chase and the Perrin separation from Elyas smack of Divine Plot Mechanics rather than organic storytelling, not to mention the local inconsistency with what the Show itself established with respect to the Power Lanfear should have.
I reacted with perhaps unfair instinctive disdain at the selective memory prevalent on this Medium, when people are saying the Forsaken are much scarier and more impactful so far in TV Show than the books.
I suppose one’s preference is what it is, but as a matter of fact, that premise is just wrong. The Forsaken in the first 3 books were terrifying and frighteningly competent. You weren’t sure where they would show up and what exactly their aims were. However, it was clear that none of our Heroes was beyond their reach. They could go and be anywhere, at the drop of a hat.
Now the TV Show long ago established these relatively primitive Aes Sedai have a way to Travel, albeit through using a magical aid. Even so, the concept exists and the relative Power Dynamic imbalance between what we are told the Aes Sedai can do and what a breathless Moiraine has been expositing about the Forsaken, especially in these last 2 Episodes to Rand, strongly suggests their Powers are relatively infinite.
The Show does eventually abandon the ludicrous Chase, because Lanfear decides she will employ at least some of her much vaunted Powers appropriately (or perhaps she finally has plot permission) but not before the confected tension has stuck to viewers’ teeth like a bad toffee apple.
And everything Perrin does after leaving Elyas reeks of deus ex ‘scriptina’ instead of organic storytelling again!
Whereas in the Books, the Gaul rescue is a logically incidental extension of his journey to catch up to Rand, in the TV Show, he has no reason beyond a conveniently confected one to even be back in the town where the Cage is.
The subsequent dialogue wavers drunkenly between steady insightful clarity, and immediately imbecilic inconsistencies.
And while the actress does a fair approximation of Aviendha as a character, her diminished physical presence (terrible miscasting) the choreography and the cinematography are so heinously inept and spatially unaware, as to render one of the more impactful scenes from the books a situation comedy instead.
And I won’t even get started with how unnecessary introducing yet another Character -Ryma of the Yellow - who seems to be there for no reason other than to add to Nynaeve and Elayne’s growing number of Concussions, especially at the expense of giving The Dragon Reborn any Storytelling Agency whatsoever.
And Mat?
Mat who?
It doesn’t Matter who…
Er Who, indeed.
I have to say, that while it’s easy to see the potential for great TV in this Episode, for me it does not fulfil it, instead opting for weakly structured outcomes, perhaps best symbolised by the utterly random addition of Fain with The Horn of Valere. More afterthought than tentacle spreading evil wildcard.
"making it more dramatic for screen makes sense"
MAYBE, but inches long nails are ALREADY incredibly difficult to maintain and retain use of your hands. And they are VERY MUCH supposed to retain use of their hands, bc they're pretty much constantly fighting off assassination attempts.
It moves the dial from decadent peacocking (in a literal sense. The long nails compromise their survival odds & therefore communicate strength) into... ridiculous.
I'd also be very surprised if the retain Lanfear's entire story.
The show runners weren't exactly subtle in showing that "this is all men's fault" (note: this is absolutely fine for people in general AND Aes Sedai to believe. But they showed a flashback and I don't know how that can be considered "unreliable narration")
If they show that Lanfear was the lead researcher AND intentionally opened the bore for the promise of power... I'd be EXTREMELY surprised. Unless they make it a girl boss moment she was totally driven to by the patriarchy or something.
8:49 when Lanfear sews the woman's mouth (assuming you're talking about this), I took it as the woman fell asleep with the horses and the interaction happened in the world of dreams. Hence the no weave on screen, just a manifestation of Lanfear's will.
Love this comparison.
As for the audio mic, what kind of audio system are you listening to?
I've watched it on my sister's Sonos system and my own 5.1 system and the voice and mic are fine.
Until the exact moment you mentioned the warder storyline, I didn't remember nor cared about it to notice it whereas I did notice Matt was absent but maybe for the better? Lol the warder storyline, shouldn't have rights lol. I haven't finished reading past the very first couple of chapters of Crown of Swords, but I never cared about Alanna or outright hated her for some shady shit she's done, so the way that they're expanding her and her warders' roles in the show reaaaaaally bothers me. I like most of everything else lol.
Also why did Lanfear look like an alien Goth princess at the end? It was kinda funny but I liked it lmao. She was really going for the dominatrix look there. Even the short hair to show she's a rebel lol (I like it, but long hair just looked better I suppose).
After an episode drops, I like to watch your review, and I like to watch @ToriTalksTV do their review. They have not read the books, but they have family who have. They are so very enthusiastic about this series, and they have great perspectives on it. Even though I've read the books, I don't remember them like you do. It is fun to compare and contrast the two CZcams shows. How hard would it be to do a joint season recap with the other channel?
I have a suspicion about Moiraine, but I am not sure if I am right or not. I think when she was shielded, Ishmael did something to her to make her more susceptible to doing things that other people might consider a dark. I think for some reason he really wants her on his side. I read the books, but I don’t know where this plot line is going. So maybe I am right, but probably not.
You think she might be under Compulsion?
Maybe. I’m not sure. It’s just a theory I had. It would fit with some of her more erratic behavior. Since this spotlight is not in the books, I’m not sure where they were going.
Considering how unlikeable she's become since losing her power, I kind of hope you're right.
Somehow the costume design for the Seanchan is this show is goofier than the costume design in one piece 😅
It’s because the costume design in one piece knows exactly what it’s trying to be and what it’s trying to accomplish
I love the normal dog leash clip they had for the leash they attached to Egwene's CGI collar. The A'dam and leash should practically fuse together and be difficult to unlatch. The devil is in the details.
I think when it came to casting women in this show, they threw a bunch of names in a hat and if she looked anything like the characters described in the book, they tossed her and reached in the hat again. Oof.
For other characters too. It is not just that Morraine is supposed to be 'short', but her warder Lan is supposed to be huge (197cm) and muscular. A common description of him was 'imposing', a mountain of force always ready to be unleashed. Daniel Henney does not look like that at all. And Loial is just ridiculously small for what he has to be.
In the books, Lan is 6'5" and has piercing blue eyes, like every named Malkieri characters in the books. Book Lan would mop the floor with show Lan@@NeblogaiLT
@@rodseel4545 facts
I’m a book fan but it has literally been since Sanderson finished the series since I last read it (fell in love with Sanderson work at that point).
With that said I’m enjoying the show although I miss some of the iconic moments I remember from the books. I watch with my wife that only knows the story from what I’ve told her and she really likes it.
I found your channel looking for someone to fill in my gaps of memories (much like mats only not filled with others 😂). So thanks for this comparison, although truthfully I do get a bit depressed with you reminding me how bad the show is doing the books :)
I may have to finish the season then come back.
I think Lanfear using a horse would have been justified if she hadn't been headed to Tar Valon. If she'd just been chasing after them I could understand cuz they're moving and she doesn't know where they are, but if she was moving toward a definite location she should have Traveled.
Did they just cut out Gaul? Bruh. Big L for the show right there if they just straight-up cut Gaul from the show like that.
We already have too many people to remember for just 8 episodes. I can live with no Gaul.
thinking Amazon will spare us this travesty and cut the series next year, we will have justice for the darkfiend version Rafe has given us.
They'll probably add him next season to follow Perrin.
Love your videos! I know you're not in love with this show, but would be awesome if you finish out the series :)
When was travelling shown in season 1?
I don't remember Traveling being used in Season 1. When was it used?
Great video, as always. 😊
When moiraine visits Suian in private in the tower! Well we assume it was traveling I guess it wasn’t confirmed 🤣 it looked like it tho
@@Bookborn Oh, yeah. Thanks!
@Bookborn it wasn't traveling. They visited a shared dreamshard or something like that with their ter'angreal.
Yeah, I like that interpretation better because rediscovering Travelling in the book series was a big deal that I hope they have in the show.
Pause the playback. It tells you the location on the screen. I’m watching via a fire stick and it’s at the bottom left, next to the characters on screen.
I completely agree that the sound is far to low, If you watch with subtitles on its much easier to tell what characters names are and you can hear easy to miss lines much better
non book reader: I loveddd this episode! it was soo good. I was literally glued at every scene. I didn't feel like it was too much information, it was more world building to me from a fantasy standpoint
I'm with you with regards to this could've been ep3. They accomplished so much with ep5 and I couldn't help but wonder why they couldn't've done this the whole season.
Anecdotally, after this episode my gf said it was boring and she didn't really care about what was going on with any of the characters.
A dozen trained, armed, armored soldiers are not going to lose to one unarmed and one untrained. Aviendha did not have spears. They were surrounded, not somewhere they could limit enemies approaching at the same time. That and why Moraine didn't just bring the horse bothered me the most. Forsaken are great. Agree it is a better episode and pretty good.
Dain said to "attack all at together or she will beat us one by one", or something like that.
And then nobody did, he himself included...
Make it make sense.
in book lore, Rand would dual 3 at once and take blows and Jordan would comment on fighting this many at once was a death sentence. These girl boss scenes are merely Rafe going to what he loves the most, sjw values.
The same thing happens in the books. I wouldn't count the whitecloaks to be trained soldiers. They're more like bullies in a uniform.
I also found the scene unrealistic the way they portrayed it though.
They could have taken her down easy if they had nets or crossbows. Are they a thing in this world?
Just as all the many many fight scenes in the John Wick movies could have been ended a lot earlier if people had grenades.
The show wanted a big fight to show how amazing her skills are. There could have been a hundred soldiers there. It would have ended the same for reasons of plot and gender.
@donkeysunited the scene is straight from the books. Except it is Perrin and Gaul there vs a dozen whitecloaks. They don't have crossbows there either. I suppose these guys would be stupid enough not to bring them (I am.not even sure if this fighting group uses crossbows at all). They are arrogant, prideful bullies.
Curious to hear your episode 6 opinions. As someone who hasn't read the books yet, I thought it was the best thus far. Hopefully episode 6 makes you a bit more hopeful for the series.
I actually think the cities and locations feel and look very distinct.
I'm not a book reader and really enjoyed this episode a lot. All 5 episodes felt like a solid fantasy series and much better than first season.
Felt like a solid series?
Hold on lets go back to episode 1 for a second.
A girl manages to open a door by pushing on it but a super human evil man beast creature charging full force doesn't. She then barges in on a meeting of super evil people and its like 40+ seconds before they adress it.
That is solid writing to you?
@@JohnTCampbell1986 Not everyone cares about shows making sense. Some people like anything new regardless of whether they are good or bad.
Solid fantasy? Yes.
Solid storytelling? No.
I think this episode is a step in the right direction specifically because by dropping Mat and Lan they give scenes a little bit more time to... settle in. Much better than jumping around trying to dish out bits and pieces of different subplots but focusing on none.
Still a LOT of amateurish film-making and logic holes:
- Padan Fain is playing whack-a-fain; he's just a gimmick at this point
- Perrin/Aviendha's fight scene was just goofy (they NEED a better choreographer)
- I don't buy Liandrin's moral quandaries
- Once again, Moiraine is yeeting Ta'veren at the Dark unprepared and hoping for the best
- I don't understand how the girls escaped and were not chased.
But I agree, this episode's feedback is mostly positive for me. Especially thanks to the antagonists being given more space. I give this episode a 6/10,
I was dumbfounded by the stupidest line. "Remember what you told me when I was a girl? Do I need to care about this?" And i'm like... yes, he's the fucking Dragon Reborn! THe world is literally ending. But to my shock, Moriane looks relieved. Like, oh, yeah, maybe I should just let the Dragon Reborn do whatever he wants, not like I had to rescue him from Lanfear five minutes ago.
If they can't get the pacing right now, in 2 or 3 seasons (assuming it goes that long) they are really going to have problems when there are 5 plotlines running concurrently and none of them converge for a few books (if ever).
@@wighty5860 fact.
@@bidossessi I would have just used the abridged series as a reference and tried basing it off of that instead of whatever they are doing here
@@jaredouimette1 I didn't know there was an abridged series. Interesting.
Liandrin calling Lews Therin "the Dragon Reborn" ...? He wasn't! He was the DRAGON! JUST THE DRAGON
I really like the show! I have read the first books, but it was in the early nineties and I really don't remember anything. I thought some things would come back, but given that they seem to differ quite a bit from the books maybe they it's not so strange.
As a subtitle user myself, I think you might benefit from them. You've mentioned a couple times having to rewind to make out what they are saying or character names and subtitles have been great for that.
Yes it’s an extremely simple solution and idk why I haven’t thought of it 🤣🤣🤣
@@Bookborn be careful you might get addicted 🤣. I put them on for everything now!
Honestly could not get my head around it until 3rd & 4th episode of season 2 & still have to go back to the books to put me on the straight and narrow again though cutting Mat & Mins storyline was odd as heck
I agree with you on almost everything but extra much I agree about Rand. I wonder what the reason is to make him so unimportant in the tv show when he is the center of the world in the books and the main protagonist?
I have several theories and idk which is correct:
- they feel they must give Rosamund pike a lot of screen time because of Star power. This might explain some of it but not all: it would be easy to keep Rand with moiraine from a book perspective
- the writer or showrunner had other favorite characters and so isn’t inspired to write for Rand. This seems likely from what I’ve read. Unfortunately it misses the bigger picture of the series
- Amazon wanted to be sure women were the focus of the show for some marketing reason. This is silly since the books didn’t need help in this regard and they still could’ve shined even if Rand did
- they ended up not liking who they cast
Maybe a mixture of all four
He is a man.
I had to pause multiple times to figure out where they are.
Great video. I agree with pretty much all your takes except for the a'dam. I never got the impression the mouth piece was an important part of the magical control. I thought of it as dominance thing like you should never speak so here I order you to keep this thing in your mouth. The yoke type collar the domane wear is pretty cool. We see the sul'dom and domane several times with no physical leash. Then when we see Egwene collared there is first a shimmering magical leash of the power visible and then the sul'dom attaches a physical leash. I suspect we are going to see a physical leash used in the training, but fully trained/broken domane function out in the world without the need of the physical representation of the magical tether. If the show used the thin silver collar and leash as described in the books, we would be in for a never ending chorus of BDSM jokes. The conversation with Liandrin and Suroth landed fine for me, since I definitely still thought of the more yoke looking a'dam as collars and because the whole master and pet symbolism still comes through.
I completely agree about poor horsie 😢
Normal thing to do would be to just take it with them, but I guess this Morraine has Trolloc blood.
@@NeblogaiLT Lol I agree!! How brutal she is is so unnecessary. Like how she left that woman to be bait for them. The Moirane of the books was a lot more reasonable and humane if I remember correctly
Can someone explain why Lanfear is powerful enough to heal herself but is not capable of healing a horse? Or like, bring it back from death after bringing herself back? Or can only the Dark One do this?
Well said, confusing....
As a major book fan, I was (mostly) happy with this episode because of the Dream World scenes. But I agree with you, they really should have just called this show “The White Tower” & cut Perrin, Matt, and Rand out of it (or have them be side characters). I mean think about this, there is widespread agreement that Liandrin is their most interesting character & Nynaeve seems like the Main Character. As a book reader…that blows my mind. But, here’s to hoping for a good finale!
I'm a book reader but not a purist by any stretch and happy for them to make changes. I'm most annoyed by just the general sloppiness of the writing and lack of internal logic that you mentioned. The dialogue in the opening scene with Suroth and Turak was excrutiating. There's some good in this episode for sure I guess my overall patience is being tested by the overall lack of quality in the showrunning. I just want to watch good TV and there is no way I could recommended this to a friend, even one who liked fantasy. This is stark contrast to early GoT for example.
if Liandrin is going thru the Ways using weaves, couldn't the Seanchan see and use this weave also?
They didn't see her use them. She opened the door from the inside. She also doesn't need weaves to open the gateways, we have keys (avendesora leaf).