What Happens When You Overload Model Train Controllers?
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- An experiment into which controllers handle a short circuit the best, in order to protect themselves and your locos!
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Contents:
0:00 Introduction
3:45 Short circuit tests
12:35 Maximum load tests
18:00 Results - Auta a dopravní prostředky
“But obviously, if you’r putting a screwdriver across the tracks of your model railway, you deserve to have bad things happen to you, okay”
-Sam 2020
haha - it's true!! ;D
i found it useful..as i've accidentally done it
You're*
When you do that it short Circuit on oo scale
Sam tries to make a bomb using model railway controllers for 23 minutes straight.
haha!! xD
Lol 😂
Lol
Looks like we have a new bomb for a war now
the military would be proud.
and then they would ban model railway controllers for being literal live bombs you can just order online for a few pounds.
Two words: “Ka” and “Boom”
Lol
haha!! xD
I read that in Demoman's voice
Ya got that right.
I can just imagine shrek shouting *KA BOOM!!* lol
Very interesting stuff, Sam. My very old (early 60s) Tri-ang controller -- which was about the size of your Gaugemaster unit -- had short-circuit protection in the form of a pop-up breaker that I remember popping a few times. It was simple to reset: just turn off the current and push the breaker back in, and you should be ready to go. Can't rate it as you have because I didn't have any of the equipment that you use, but I remember the breaker being pretty quick to cut in, and certainly nothing ever got damaged before it did.
An interesting design feature was that it had 4 sets of connections, 2 of which were controlled by the dial (though there was only one, so what happened if you hooked them both up, I have no idea) and 2 which were direct -- which really meant that you needed some other sort of controller, or at least a switch, to control the current through them. It did mean that I could run both my trains and a Minic car set at the same time by using the Minic controllers. Luckily, the level crossing was designed so that It didn't short out either circuit or the controller as a whole.
My father's 1930s Hornby 0 Gauge system -- 3-rail, of course, and all-metal rolling-stock -- had protection. The transformer/controller was a primitive version of the simple but sturdy Marshall II you tested. The protection was a separate naked square of fibreboard holding two terminals in series with the track supply, with a piece of ordinary domestic fuse-wire across the terminals. As a kid I had no idea what an amp even was, but it was most likely 5-amp wire.
Dad soon trained us in putting fresh bits of fuse-wire between the terminals. Boy, did we get through a lot of the stuff.
Blimey - I suppose that is pretty important for all-metal rolling stock too! Thanks for sharing David!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I was a kid (5-6 years old?) that had been given a typical HO scale train set for Christmas. I ran it and ran it of hours on end (my parents had thrown away the manual & packaging but also incorrectly assembled the track for me to wake up to, that's how I knew they'd bought it), probably to the point the motor would have died but it kept on running. Eventually, (maybe 7-8 years old) I began to get extremely curious as to the function and control of the train. I saw at high speeds, there were sparks visible from under the drive wheels so it must have been passing electricity from the rails into the train. I discovered (by gently placing a screw driver onto the track) shorting the circuit would stop the train, so I took the train off and began further investigating. I could generate decently large sparks (for a child) by slowly closing the gap between the inner rail, screwdriver and outer rail. I discovered that touching just one rail with the screwdriver didn't do anything, so whatever this "electrical circuit" stuff Dad had been talking about must mean electricity must flow into one side of the locomotive and out the other. At one point, the screwdriver got stuck (it physically welded) to the rail and I panicked, unstuck it, and, as a maniac of a child I was, tried to generate another spark. There was no spark. I panicked more. I put the loco on and tried to drive it. Nothing. I was heartbroken. I thought maybe I'd destroyed my one and only beloved locomotive but definitely the sparky electric knob-box. That is how I learned most of what I know about electricity today, but had to go to college to learn the maths of it.
Edit: wrote comment before viewing, now finished watching. I wholeheartedly approve of the SSCSSSC approval method.
Sam'sTrains (not to be long winded, there is a happy ending to this story, I promise) I was devastated that I had broken my most beloved toy; Legos were relatively affordable for me, so breaks or missing pieces could be replaced; sticks and stones broke Bonesy the skeleton, but I had a heck of a lot more stones and sticks. I did not have enough of a knowhow to jury-rig something 'redneck' style at that age so I moped and cried for a good month and started saving precious lawn mowing money (the best work dad offered for a child my capacity at $10 per yard (no matter the yard) and we had no constant allowance because that was for privileged kids) and half went to savings. Between my siblings and I all having to fight for this work, always putting half away for college, and only having one lawnmower, money came slowly (I remember saving for three months to afford a single Digimon VHS tape and then had to wait AGAIN for at least another month until we could afford both to take a trip to town and shop at the store that sold Digimon VHS tapes (the reason I bought tapes instead of watching or recording live broadcasts is another story)).
I did, however, also remember something, a dream of finally entering a drawing, not being cheated by the drawers and getting something great in return, but had yet to actually win anything either from random-chance or skill based drawings for prizes before. At the county fair, (and I think it's still a thing nation wide) Operation Lifesaver (a level-crossing advocacy group) sets up a television, a few chairs and benches, and lets anyone curious to listen to the presenter or the VHS tapes of violent automobile/train simulated crashes (which are unsettling even as an adult, but boy howdy as a kid I certainly thought someone had been there with every single camera shot (possibly by time travel, if it existed), and physically threw the tape from person to person to get perfect cuts, angles, camera moves, and other digital media tricks that are entirely possible on live broadcasts today (again, I was a smart kid, but not bloody omnipotent)). I, for all intents and purposes, believed we had truly been to Pluto because I had heard about Pluto and Magic School Bus went there (isn't the purest form of childhood legitimately believing in magic?). What I was interested in was getting the raffle prize; an entire Bachmann set, and free to any child that puts their name in the raffle box. Being a child, I thought about these concepts of kindness, fairness, justice, death, hate, etc, but hadn't fully formulated what they meant to me yet. The Lifesaver man, although he was old, hadn't rode the rails in years, and was pretty jaded playing the same tapes over and over and seeing fewer kids take part every year as the local populations of 'Smalltown, America' dwindled (I think for us it was about the era the lumber mill was shutting down). All previous years, I limited myself to two entries, knowing that even if I lost the raffle or checked my empty pockets for corndog money. I felt I could entitle myself to six entries the next year. I spent all of my time the night of the drawing hoping and praying for a phone call. That night, there were only telemarketers. The next year, I was determined to win (especially spending long days working for no or little money). The next year, I spent every waking second entering my name and number, as the only limit to the prize was "name and number on one of these papers, I must see you write it, and you can enter as many times as you want." I like to think that, even if my name wasn't drawn, he chose my name anyway, just for the effort I put in. I later discovered he actually threw many of my entries away because nobody else could put more entries into the box. I love Operation Lifesaver man.
haha yes - I did all of this too - it's great for learning about electricity (if a bit dodgy) - another great value of train sets! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
0:24
When you ask your parents to buy you the Santa's Express, and you except certain liveries, but you get it with different liveries that you despise
haha!! xD
I had a short circuit once.
I tried to put one of my grandparents wagons on my railway, but they are completely metal because on my grandparents’ track the power goes through a middle rail but I use dcc. Luckily my controller had a protector!
Ahh yes I've had wagons like that before - yes protection will have been very important in that case!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
0:17 cringe
0:19 more cringe
0:22 ultimate cringe
Edit: im dying in those parts 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
haha!! xD
0:17 0:19 and 0:22
Sam used EXPLOSION!
*IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!*
*Controllers 1-3 FAINTED!*
haha!! xD
When I was a kid we had a Model Rectifier Corporation Dual Loco Model 700 Controller. It never burned out or ruined a loco. Sometimes an Overload Indicator came on, but hitting reset it would be good to go. Made in USA.
Input: 110 -120 volts; 60 cycles AC OUTOUT:4 Amps. Master Power Switch. Dual throttles. Each throttle power could be set to either Pulse or full; 0 - 12 volts DC; direction switch; Dual Overload Indicators; Circuit breaker Protected.
Compared to the base Hornby controller, the Bachmann controller is quite basic when it comes to protection. I've had both, and the Hornby Controller is very restricting. the Hornby Controller doesn't let you change direction when there is any power to the controller, it turns off when something causes it to short circuit, but it feels much lighter and the plastic feel cheaper than the Bachmann controller.
0:07 That over enthusiastic and slightly suspicious science teacher....
haha I know right!! xD
"what Happens when you break your controller?" It breaks.
haha!! ;D
Lol
When you have the chart on screen, the two tracks with trains on them in the background is a nice, subtle, but very nice touch! I've been binge watching your videos alot, unfortunately I can't buy model trains due to the cost, but seeing someone enjoying their hobby, and testing lots of stuff like controllers, locos, tracks, and more in a scientific manner is very awesome to see! Can't wait to see more science testing-based videos! Greetings from Canada!
Thanks so much - glad you like that!! Appreciate you sticking around - really glad you like the videos!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
If dapol made a ho controller i bet it will explode
haha, no comment! xD
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The Bachmann _does_ have a short circuit protection, namely its 800 mA current limitation. It will not protect a motor armature very well, but there will be no fire either.
The alternative to just limiting, which cuts out the power completely is called a foldback protection.
If there is a current limiter and a temperature foldback, that is getting quite good. These controllers all seemed to protect themselves well (the old one just by being overbuilt), but not all would protect a stalled motor.
We all love the "click" noise of the Gaugemaster in your videos, when you change the direction :)
Good answer. It's all down to Ohm's Law. A stalled motor will draw current according to its stalled resistance.
Yes that's true - but I think 800mA is quite a lot, especially when it's supplied continuously under short circuit condition - the best controllers detect this, and cut the power.
And correct - the stalled resistance of motors is much lower than under normal operation due to the lack of EMF produced by the motor in motion - hence the massive currents!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Sorry to keep on, but I would be interested to see the characteristic curve of the output under load. It may be that Bachmann have a cunning circuit that keeps voltage constant to a point then goes 'over a cliff'.
By the way, I have just been given one of those Meccano PSU's and it seems to be a tapped transformer (ie a voltage control). I haven't opened it up to have a look yet. OK for testing though. I design transformers for a living.
You need a wire wound rheostat for these sort of tests :). Those little variable resistors don't quite cut it.
I sometimes find the Hornby Trainset Controller is sometimes a little bit too sensitive on its cut-out. Having a slight delay on the cut-out is a good thing. Probably up to about 1 second delay is good.
I am not sure your trigger current was quite right. You measured that at the time the controller cut out, but if a controller takes 8 seconds to cut out, the trigger current could be lower.
Thanks for the comparison. It gave a rough idea of what these can do.
This is a video I’ve been waiting for. As always another great video. I love these experiment videos
Thank you - that's lovely to hear!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam, I used to own an original Tri-ang P6A controller from the 60's. They used a thermal cutout for overload protection. It worked by using a bi metal strip that was part of the circuit inside the controller. Under normal running current flowed and all was well. However when a short or overload occurred the bi metal strip heated up and bent which broke the circuit thus causing the power to the track to cut off. It had a red button just above the speed and direction knob which was used to reset once the short was removed. They were a very reliable controller using a rectifier instead of any electronics. Of course they were well suited to the 3 pole motors of the day. At the time it was deemed to be one of the best available with a beautiful all metal case in a sort of metallic blue finish. It had an A/C output to connect points controllers and an auxiliary 12volt dc for a slave controller to be connected. I remember using it at a friends place where we had a long train with as much rollingstock as we had with a triple header on the front. My original Stephenson's Rocket then an 0-4-0 diesel shunter (Not the Dock Shunter and Green in colour) followed by a steam loco which was I think a Princess class (it belonged to my friend). This all drew too much current and the red button used to pop out so we as 12/13 year old's kept it running by pressing in the red button.
Very silly but in those days we thought it was fun.
I am really surprised that the modern Hornby and Gaugemaster controllers were so bad. There is no way they should allow that much current onto the track.
Modern transistor controllers since about the 1980's all as far as I knew had built in electronic short circuit protection so I wonder what has changed.
Have you done a DCC test to see how they fair? They should be well within limits to avoid damage to the DCC chips in the locos I would think.
Hey Alan, thanks a lot for sharing - yes I have heard about those before - sounds like a pretty great feature to me!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains OOoops! I named the wrong controller. I had the P5A. The P6A was specifically designed for anyone that had catenary and allowed for a common return so you could run for example any of the regular track powered locos and another wire was connected to the catenary. I never saw one in person and am not fully sure if they were much different at the back where the connectors were but the unit itself looked identical from the front except for the P6A instead of P5A.
Sam you've already had one fire hazard in your loft!
In all seriousness though great video!
haha this is true!! Thanks mate! :D
Cheers,
Sam :)
Very interesting video. I'm running my Ausicion Vline L series (L1160) loco from my DC power supply on my hornby dcc train set loop.
The hornby dcc controller is great because of its short circuit protection which I've tripped a few times when running the dcc locos that came with it. But, when I'm running my Ausicion loco in pure dc, with a live read out of the changing amps is priceless. It's currently sitting at 0.7 volts with 0.08 - 0.10 amps depending on where the loco is in the loop, the model I'm currently running has lights etc so it's drawing a bit more.
Finding the perfect voltage/sweet spot has been pure scale model locomotive bliss.
Thanks a lot Bob - and thanks for sharing, that's interesting!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
As always Sam a well put together and informative video, I'm a big fan of the Gaugemaster controller, I can control 240 feet of track on my garden railway without bus wires and they are very reliable and sturdy. Take care and thank you for posting Sam.
Thanks a lot Paul - yes I love those too - they are excellent!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thanks for taking the sacrifice with these experiments so everyone else doesn't have to find out the hard way when there stuff blows up :)
haha no problem - this one was fun! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I love that you used the Tango for the Derailment. That made me smile
haha thank you - it's my go-to laughing-stock loco! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Can't wait to try that new screwdriver tip with my new hornby tracks, thank you for the fun activity guide, Sam!
OH god - be careful, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Only joking of course, but thank you for the great video :)
Another thing that this brings out is the danger of running dcc chipped locos with a DC controller. While dcc controllers cut out very fast with a short circuit, the Gaugemaster took much longer. I guess this is how I managed to fry a couple of dcc locos that came off on a crossover powered by dc. Now I will never run a dcc loco on a dc layout. They all have the CV29 blocked from dc.
Thanks for the great test Sam!
Ahh that is interesting Antony - thanks for sharing this!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Interesting experiment. I like how the cheap Mehano controller seemed to have a safety feature and some of the more pricy ones didn't. I have a few controllers from the 70s without circuit protection and I've seen them smoke when a short goes un-noticed... Not the type of thing I leave plugged in when not around.
Thank you! I know right - the Mehano was ultra well designed!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Welcome to sams ways of destroying train controlers
1.cross contamination with a hornby with a bachman controler
2.put your screw driver on tracks while it has a current
(Your controler is now screwed)
3. Abandonment of your model railway while running a train and getting some model railwaysmans heated steam water
5. Wash your controler with water and soap
6.use a car battery to charge your controler
Thanks for reading!
Remember ,:take your model railwaysmans broth
*OR ELSE*
*DONT TRY THIS AT HOME*
haha those are all very accurate actually, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Easier said , a short circuit occurs when there's a conductor between + and - , no matter it's a model railway , a plug , a battery or something else. On my controller (I think it's Hornby but no idea what model) it's cutting straight away when it's a short circuit as all the trains stops and I can hear a knocking from the plug's transformer. But depending on what it's shorting , I've seen motors smoking , or wires getting red-hot.
I have experience of 1950s equipment. When shorted there was a smell and bluish smoke appeared and stopped working. The Hornby Dublo ringfield motor was susceptible to burning out as well, whereas the Tri-ang XR 3 seemed to take a lot of punishment.
Uh oh - that doesn't sound good! I'm not surprised those older controllers took a lot of punishment! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains It was when the ringfield stalled that they ran the risk of burning out.
Very interesting Sam. I suppose because they are used with 'starter' sets, that the cheap controllers came out really well in your tests. Excellent video as always.
Thanks very much Mike - absolutely, they seem super safe! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
12:01 "The results there were absolutely shocking.....". Not sure if that was deliberate, but it made me smile :) Good video.
haha thank you, glad you liked it! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Blew up the inside of an old walk around DC throttle one time, wired the connection wrong and a capacitor exploded in it while it was in my hand. Have also seen some spectacular damage in the O-scale world in terms of electrical burn up with 18-24 volt systems (both AC and DC).
Blimey - that must have been a shock, in your hand! Crikey what happened with the O gauge?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Thankfully the controller had a metal case, but my heart skipped a few beats. As for the O-scale I have seen transformers, wiring and engines start to burn up from the amperage. Mind you those breakers (if they have them....done some risky testing with vintage Lionel transformers) usually go at 5 amps so you have a pretty good current heating things up.
Believe it or not, I've got a H&H transformer which feds controls for 1956, when I had my first train set, (Princess Elizaberth) and being 10 years old at the time use to connect the tarnsformer directly to the track to make her go faster, it also acted as a isolater by, you guest, placeing a tea spoon across the rails for an emergentcy stop! and I still got that transformer and Princess E. They knew how to make thing in them days...By-the-way congrate on joining Justin and his team at SMS Devon Sam...Keep on shuntting Idris
haha thanks Idris! Yes they were built to last in those days - I have a few old power supplies that can be shorted all day long without complaining... still, not good for locos, haha!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
LOVED THE BEGINNING SAM! can't seem to fail at making me laugh!!!
Great video! Learned a lot!
haha thank you!! xD
Sam'sTrains you’re welcome!
My 1930’s trix twin railway controllers have short circuit protection which seems to work well. Frequently tested with derailed trains. I use a 1950’s transformer which is rated at 3 amps , however if you shorted that it would probably dim the lights in a major city
Thanks for sharing - blimey, they even did things properly in the 30s!! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I really like these experiments
Thank you! :D
Controllers: Kaboom?
Sam: *Yes controllers, kaboom*
As a point. The Meccano transformer, at least my old one, is an Auto Transformer. This means that one side of your track is connected to the mains supply. If you use a neon type power detector, you should find it will light up just as though you stuck into a mains socket! I can't think of an easy way to have a full mains belt from it, but the chance is there, they are not an isolating transformer, as all modern ones are....
Blimey, that's very interesting Andrew - I'll have to look into that, thank you!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I'm currently building a twin track controller and the first components I ordered were those instantaneous 'pop up' overload cut outs similar to those used in the old Triang controllers. The noise when (if) they pop alerts you far better than an LED changing colour ( or not!).
Another smashing video Sam, had flashbacks to the staring in the Dapol Water Tower (another explosive topic, eh?) video at 0:24!
I have the Hornby 900 Power Control from years ago, not sure what that is rated for - although I doubt it will have short circuit protection!
I normally go round with the back of a fridge magnet every few weeks just to make sure no metal is near by - with the power off.
My locomotives only draw around 100-200 milliamps, or 350-550 in double headers.
I also have a "boost" function on the controller - I turn this on when doing heavy duty running.
Thanks, George.
haha thanks mate - ooh yeah, I would have liked to have seen one of those blow up! Yes that's right - about 200mA is reasonable for most locos!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
If I remember right, the R900 was rated at a massive 2.25amps as it could handle accessories and 2? slave controllers (R902)
Not sure, but I know that it could have another controller plug into the side, so it could power two tracks? The ports on the side where you would plug in another controller measure 12v DC. What is a "slave controller" I have seen them on the likes of eBay and can't find any info on them.
Anyway, the bloke who sold the controller to me said it was a beefy controller and was well worth buying another to make it a twin track controller.
It does have a 15v AC output.
There is something about blowing things up or making them smoke that gives great satisfaction unless it was not intentional. The basic controllers surprised me because I would have expected them to not have any protection. But the more expensive units I would expect it and to perform much better. I'm installing a dedicated short circuit protection unit on my multideck layout and it has adjustable settings including its trigger. Ill be setting it at a low 1.5amps. Very interesting video Sam and keep well. Clint
This is very true - I've always loved blowing things up with electricity, lol! Me too - I was surprised the expensive controllers weren't more sensitive to short circuits - they certainly passed high current for much longer than expected!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Well done sam great video love these types as new to model railway my self and like to know what's good and what's not keep up the good work look forward to the next one
Thank you! Appreciate it mate! :D
Cheers,
Sam :)
Hi Sam. I love seeing experiments like this and i am glad to see that my controller which is the Hornby train Set one is good it got the sliver star!!!
Thanks Liam - glad to hear that, yes they are super safe! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Non-isolated pointwork across a double track mainline or anything with multiple power feeds can cause it depending on how the pointwork is laid, or damaged point frogs can also do it. Just thought I'd mention as it's something that's far from immediately obvious. My poor HM 2000 had to deal with a fair amount of current multiple times before I finally tracked it down to the damaged point, luckily it's a solid unit and is still going strong now several years later.
Edit: Also, judging by how long the power light on the HM 2000 remained illuminated before shutting off, I think mine reacts a bit faster than yours.
Love the channel Sam, keep up the great content
Yes you're absolutely right Matthew - connecting two controllers together in that way can cause excess current flow/controller damage - very good point!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
hello i am thinking about going to o gauge but i have a question, how do you power it do you use a power clip or somthing like that?
You may be able to - I just soldered the wires directly to the sides of each rail!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Awesome video, really informative, thank you. Would you please consider doing something similar again with the Gaugemaster Combi and other controllers such as the old HandM and the HM6000 etc?
After watching the intro and explanation of short circuits I can't help but feel I now know the reason 14-year-old me's controllers kept 'breaking'....
haha I know right - it all makes sense! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Wonder what happened with the bachmann? Mine trips its short circuit protection sometimes, usually just cutting power to the track ( if I'm lucky if flashes the light on top too). Not sure under exactly what conditions though.
Yes others have told me that too - mine sustained full current indefinitely without cutting out! I wonder if the safety system failed?!?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
i have a Mrc Tech 2 2400 i never seen the overload light come on , however when i run my mantua steamers with an Athearn controller it will have the overload light come on if i run too much when i was testing the locomotive to see if it ran. mind you the motor was running no shorts just requires more draw.
Yeah I've heard that the Athearn locos draw loads of current - I wonder why that is?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Old Meccano type 3 controller when it short circuits: Red light turns on and electric buzzing sound. Until you turn it all the way down and back up
You short circuit on 3-rail almost every derailment
Hi Sam, Thank you for the test , it does open your eyes ,as you say never leave the room , you don't know what you could come back to , All the Best Brian 🤗
No problem Brian, glad you liked it! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
You should test this through some track, as this would give a different resistance and a more realistic circumstance
It shouldn't make much difference - even with track in between, a short would cause a lot of current to flow - the resistance would still be incredibly low!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains fair enough, just a thought anyway
Hello sam i wanna ask u some thing me hornby bill and ben keep hitting power cord on track do u know how to let them not do that??
Hmmm, maybe you could tape the cord down??
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Bill still bumping tracks but it did help littel 😀😀
PIKO used bimetal in their Fz1 (1970's-1990's), (+ a red light) as a short circuit protection, triggered at about at 1.5 A, but do to its nature it variate to each controller + ageing was a factor too, but they still work (mostly).
Ahh very interesting - thanks for this Tom, I'd love to try one! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Love this!
Just when I thought you had finally made a reasonably safe experiment set up you nearly do yourself in with a resistor xD
haha I know right - I thought it would handle much higher loads than that! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains for your next dangerous science video 'how much resistance does a human add to the track circuit' lol
if you can, can you tell me how to tell if a train has short circuit on the Bachmann controller and what to do when i have a short circut?
My Bachmann controller doesn't do anything when it shorts, but usually you'll see the loco stop! Just clear the track/short, and things should go back to normal! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I had a metal track joiner fall across the rails one time and couldn't figure out where the short was until I smelled plastic burning and found a glowing red joiner melting the plastic ties. This was when I still used a cheapo power pack that apparently didn't have short protection.
Blimey! That sounds dramatic - again, short circuit protection would have saved that dangerous situation! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Have 3 bachmann controllers. The dcc one stops after about 3 hours running outside on o gauge. the other 2 are on oo and tt and only the tt one has malfunctioned with 2 triang a1a motors under a loco but now only goes one way. Will replace all now seeing your findings. Thanks Sam.
Hi Sam- great reviews ,as usual - !! - I was looking at a addy the other day for the "Morley " range of controllers - and was wondering what your thoughts / views are on them ?? or have you ever used one or done a review on any of their range and what is their reputation ?? as i,m looking to replace my elderly controllers in the very near future and I am trying to narrow my choice down - thanks for your time
AHh yes I have heard about those before - yes I'd love to give them a try, will look into them! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Fascinating experiment, makes you wonder then about displays in the old days. I recall Hamley's used to have a model train circuit running continuously round a large suspended circuit on one of the shop floors. I'm guessing they must have had a few derailments which went unnoticed and back then not sure of any short circuit protection.
Thanks a lot Geoff - I know - I wonder if they had any issues?!?
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Awesome video today Sam really interesting and I never leave my room when my locomotives are running
Thanks James - that's the safest way to be!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam, pity this hadn't have been 2 weeks ago!!
I had of all things, a BEAUTIFUL Dapol Class 68 - you MUST get one they are SUPERB and extremely well built and nicely designed to work on!!!
Using my HM2000, half power, it was pulling 13x Bachmann 104-tonne 'TEA tankers' at a guesstimated 60mph +/- scale speed.
Each end has normal narrow NEM pocket mounted tension lock couplings - no problem, but in-between each tanker I've used Hunts couplings .... one was pulled out of the socket, leaving Brutus to slam into the back ... being UNATTENDED .... for perhaps 10 minutes.
I arrived to that familiar for an old-timer like me burnt electronics smell - naughty words sprung to mind, and a LOT of them!!
I switched off immediately. Checking for physical damage there was NONE - nice.
The body on the outside, through the metal chassis as well as plastic body felt pretty hot - not good.
I quickly removed the body - clip on / off, so EASY - great design Dapol.
I tried on the track again, assuming the controller would have reset - NOTHING - ah well.
I unscrewed the PCB, then saw a motor shim / brace was deformed with the heat, removed this, and another mount, lifted out the motor, desoldered it, assuming it's either / or - motor or PCB.
I tested the motor - it's working!! Spooling up to max, the SOUND was nowhere near what I would normally expect and it sounded a little rough.
I tested the chassis, thinking it must be the PCB - WRONG - lights are working perfectly, and no signs of burning anywhere.
I remounted the motor after resoldering - locomotive moves off at a 'normal 'setting' but when turned up, it's obviously lost speed - it's the motor.
£26.50 replacement plus ~£4.00 shim brace replacement received and installed - PERFECT AGAIN!!
If you'd have posted this 2-3 weeks ago you could have saved me £30!! I say it's your fault!
JOKING ASIDE, the Hunts couplings are a GREAT design, but a bit variable in dimensions, and perhaps the pockets may vary a little, but I think it's more the Hunts than the pockets ... so knowing they'll remain with the Hunts, the coupling are superglued in now - will NEVER (I know ...) happen again!!
HappyDays.com as a colleague used to say.
Al.
Ahh sorry to hear that Alan - send me the bill, lol! Yes those HM2000s can supply insane current it seems - if they were better designed, your 68 might have survived :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Thanks. All's good now, but £30 lighter.
As a controller recommendation for anyone reading, I'd say the "Hammant and Morgan duette" is one of the best things you can get. I have 4 of them for my layout and they all serve me well. On high resistance and half power, the slow speeds are absolutely phenomenal. My S15 for example, I could only see moving when I put my eye right down next to it, but believe me, it was still moving (I time lapsed it to make sure I wasn't making it up.) I also has great short circuit protection and they'll last forever. They're often overlooked due to their age, but I'd choose them any day over an HM 2000 or gaugemaster controller. You may want to swap out the fuse in the plug however as a couple of mine came fitted with a 13A fuse.
Great to hear that Dom - I've always wanted to try one of those! Thanks for the recommendation as always! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
That was a useful and interesting test. A common type of protection I'm not sure any of the tested controllers had is a resettable fuse. I think all the Gaugemaster hand-held controllers use these, and I've seen several other hand-helds with them. They will pass a the rated current indefinitely, above that they cut out but can take a long time, to cut out quickly they need about twice the rated current. The problem I found was that the max current was limited by the power supply and the controller setting about 1.5 amps (2.5 A at full throttle), but the fuse was 1.1 amps cut-off, so it would supply 1.5 A for 20-30 seconds. I've seen this damage locos 3 times, all the same loco design. Certain Dapol N locos used a tiny spring to transmit power from the tender to the loco (they have since changed the design to use a wire). If the loco derailed on a crossing you could get a tender wheel touching the other rail and shorting via the spring and the loco wheel. Because the spring is so thin 1.5 A made it red hot, your warning something was wrong was smoke coming from the loco as the spring melted and burnt plastic (the motor was not involved and was fine). They can be made a lot safer by replacing the 1.1A fuse by a lower rated one, I use 0.5 A for N Gauge (0.4 sometimes tripped on double headers). BTW, a common reason these controllers fail is that the fuse goes open circuit and you need to replace it, so a stock of spares is good (it is a soldered in component in the form of a small disk, available from RS and similar). Of of 6 broken controllers at the club 5 were fixed by replacing the fuse.
Noel
Hi Noel - I do like the idea of a resettable fuse - provided people don't abuse them, I can't see why manufacturers don't fit them more often! That spring design sounds pretty silly too - demonstrates a lack of proper testing once again!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I have a hornby castle class and often when it goes over points it short circuits.
Any ideas how to stop it
Hmm I'm not sure mate - my P2 does that sometimes, it's quite odd!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Nice test! I'm amazed that controllers are currently (sorry) available that do not have safety cutouts. I well remember that my first one in the mid 1960s had a prominent red button that would quickly pop up and kill the juice as soon as a short circuit occurred.
Thanks John - yes I agree - though none of the super high-current controllers failed to cut out, which is good to see (despite how long some of them took!). I do think manual resets are a good idea - odd that none of these had that!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam, I have a question. You know when you check your locomotives's chassis for proper set of bearings. Do your Hornby or Bachmann Thomas models have proper bearings or do the axles sit straight into the chassis?
Most of Hornby's do have proper bearings... most of the Bachmann ones don't - they're pretty shoddy!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
good research project, Sam. Are there any separate cut-outs you can wire in to the circuit for extra safety? - or should we all buy a mehano controller and include it in the circuit, and use a more posh one for actually controlling the trains?
Thanks Rick - yes that has been suggested, I'll have to investigate! A resettable one would be best though - if such a thing exists!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
In my head I’m picturing Sam’s house burning down btw. I love your vids, keep up the good work!
Sorry
haha it could easily happen, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
1:18 "The full power of the controller"
Only if it is already turned up to full power, which is a strange thing to do given that your loco will be whizzing around the track at 88mph.
The question now is what did you test? A short is a direct connection between the poles, which means it happens outside your motor or your motor is so completely broken that it's not salvagable anyway. if there is a short and your loco stops, your first reaction is to turn of the power, not to turn it up forther as smoke begins to develop from unusual places.
I'm far more interested in what protection the loco's have against things that can cause them to develop a short.
It's also interesting to look at wether the wiring inside a loco can handle the max current put out by the worst-protected controller; does your loco actually take damage from a poorly-protected controller?
It's probably even more interesting to see if there is a DIY gizmo that you can put in series with your controller to protect against overvoltage and over-current, like a circuit breaker in your house.
Does the 6 amps even make it through the circuit to the wheels, is the contact of the loco's wheels on the rail enough to allow 6 amps to pass through? It would not be the first application where the test-case of a direct short is something that is allmost impossible to achieve in real life.
Amazing video. Useful information. Good job it is not using mains. At 500 milliamps the heart goes in to fibrilation and you blow up. May i suggest that when using all metal screwdrivers that some rubber tubing is slid over the handle and most of the shaft for insulation. Only the tip should be showing. You can get shrouded screwdrivers. Your croc clips are also shrouded preventng short circuits. When in doubt insulate with non-electrical conducting material.
Thank you!! Yes that's true - but much higher voltage would be required to overcome the resistance of the human body! Yes that's true - but I don't use my screwdrivers around high voltage anyway!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. When I was 'nobbut a lad' I had a Triang trainset; the controller was a large, heavy, grey box with a slanting front with the red control knob. Also, there was a small red button that you needed to press to rest the controller if there was a short circuit (have controllers gone backwards - if you'll pardon the pun?). I think you rather short-changed the Mehano controller; on its performance, I would have awarded a gold certificate!
The problem with that button is that it could be held down while there was a short circuit.
@@Poliss95 Thank God for a supervising parent!
@@PaulSmith-pl7fo My dad was out with his racing pigeons most of the time and my mother didn't have a clue about anything electrical.
@@Poliss95 Ah well, there's a lost opportunity!
Yes that's right - the red button could easily be bodged so as not to work! And yes - I too love the Mehano controllers! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
For the bachmann controller, can you just unplug the controller and re plug it in and would it work like normal?
Mine didn't cut out at all so I didn't need to - that's what I have to do with Hornby's though, for sure!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. I think I would buy a packet of three 6mm x 30mm 12V Car Glass Fuse Fuses 2A from eBay which costs £1.09 including P&P. Replacing a car fuse will be considerably cheaper than repairing that Gaugemaster controller! If you get a glass fuse, you can straightway see when it has burnt out. You can sometimes get a short caused by arcing across the commutator which will trigger an intermittent overload protector, but not a thermal cut-out.
That sounds great - I'll have to try that too! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The Gaugemaster and large Hornby controllers will only be equipped with internal thermally controlled protection. Basically to self-protect, but not to give any form of protection to anything outside the controller.
The small Hornby controller appears to be equipped with a sense and trip function so it will protect not just itself, but also external devices. Essential for childrens train sets, where it is usually found to avoid damage to played with locos. I expect it has some type of short time retry pulse to check if the short is removed. Probably too fast for your meter to register.
The trouble with fitting this to the Gaugemaster controller is simply that you run the risk of cutting out too early if someone simply has a power hungry loco and a large load. When starting from stationary, DC motors can sometimes pull quite a lot of current transiently. I guess Gaugemaster don't want the reputation of controllers that cut out too freely.
Yes that seems to be true, hence the delay in cut-out I suppose? Agreed - the Hornby train set controllers are spot on (if a bit frustrating) - can't see locos being damaged with that one!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Interesting video. My very old Triang controller had a little button that popped out when there was a short circuit. In view of your test could a simple circuit breaker be made to fit between the controller and track..
Thanks John - those are so much better - I can't understand why these don't use manual resets... do they expect people to overcome them by devious means?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Over here in the US (at least in O scale) the protection is a standard, dating back to the 20’s iirc when Lionel started making modern transformer systems. They too had relays
Absolutely - it's a shame that some of these didn't have such effective cut-outs!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Excellent Video Sam, it’s important to know how safe the controls are on a model railway.
Thanks mate, I agree! :D
Sam'sTrains Me too :)
Is there a chance you could an experiment around inclines, i.e. what is the steepest incline a train successfully climb.
Great idea Chris - I could try that! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yeah I’m not sure how the short circuit protection works on these, but one thing I do know is electricity always takes the path of least resistance so if let’s say your loco derails and a wheel creates a short between the tracks the motor will be fine as the current won’t pass through it, obviously a very different story if the valve gear jams tho the motor will burn out before the over current protection kicks in and that seems to be the case On most of those controllers by the looks of it. As and electrician myself I can tell you short circuit and overcurrent are very different fault conditions, the long and short of it tho as you said is never leave your train set unattended, also the mehano is the only one which protects against overcurrent by the looks of it
Yes that's absolutely right - the motors are only in danger if they're stalled with voltage applied - the lack of back EMF causes excess current to flow.
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
That Mehano one is great, I’ll have to try to find one for my trains
For what they cost, they are very good! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
may i ask? how can you fix your train set after you put a screwdriver across the tracks sam
Yeah, that is a lot of amps going thru ones loco rolling stock and lit coaches etc. If you have a power socket strip (gang) of 4 to 6 (some will have more 8+ which I wouldn't use anyway) outlets plugged in to power your layout. It is advisable to buy a power gang with Anti-Surge Protection built into it for extra safety.
Most layouts would have up to 2x Up and 2x Down lines with a possible branch line. Then you'll could also have a further plug powering your accessories, lights, moving vehicle's, windmills etc. A 6x socket Anti-Surge power gang from one wall power socket should be enough for any home layout.
If you consult an electrician you could change the wall socket over, to a fused socket with red LED and use a Quick Blow fuse for safety. Another option is to have the power connected to or built in with a Power Trip Switch Circuit and a button power Rest. Though this would be overkill, unless you have a very large layout to run.
Please take heed with Square Plug-In Adapters. These square adapters are dangerous to use and best to throw out and replace with a Socket Strip Gang as mentioned above.. I have be horrified to see a single wall socket with Square Adapter with 3x outlets plugged in and then a further adapter plugged into that. The thing is with this type of power practise to charge or power any amount of equipment generates a lot of heat. This is because the more items plugged in this way draws and requires more amps from the wall socket. This will eventually melt wires or plastics within the square plug unit to fail and then it can lead to a major fire starting.
They can also become what is called Top Heavy. This means with all the items plugged into it, they add extra weight that over time weighs the square adapter unit down and away from the wall. Slowly over time pulling the three (two in other countries) pins for Live, Neutral and Earth away from connecting to the wall socket. Given a chance this can lead to sparking if its too loose between the pins and its counterpart within the wall socket. The smallest of sparks can and will catch fire on anything that is flammable near to it or the square adapter plug will just burst into flames anyway. I highly recommend binning these Square Adapters to the trash can if you see or ever use them, then replace with a proper protected gang strip. I am sure there is CZcams videos of this happening and showing the dangerous results.
Thanks for the comment John! But don't forget 5A on the 12v side will only be around 250mA on the mains side - that's obviously a tiny amount! You mean have the trip protection on the layout-side of the controller? Many thanks for all the info - appreciate it!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Know problem, but do ditch any square adapters if you have any and buy a gang strip.
Some of these controllers have different plug types as well. I currently use a old Hornby R965 controller and the plug has some sort of relay cut out, I found this out as a little triang 040 Nellie keeps shorting due to a possible motor issue. You can tell it shorts as the plug will start clicking.
Yes I have heard that some controllers have protection in their adaptors - I'd argue that this is a poor design, as a change in adaptor could easily negate the protection!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
hi sam, recently purchased Hornby's newer tooling of class 43 HST power cars. I bought the GWR green set and they are the one of best runners I have on my layout! Some of them do have quite a hefty price but with the correct matching coaches, they look amazing. I can only recommend you try them out although if you don't because of the price tag, I understand fully XD
Great to hear they're great runners mate, thanks a lot for the suggestion! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I use one of those old Marshall II controllers for my 0 gauge. However, my 0 gauge is limited to 6 yards of simple track and a single dapol 08, so little to no risk of a short there.
I have had issues of the R965 controllers cutting out randomly on some locos, like my bachmann 170, and I know for a fact the newer hornby controllers (silver as here, and the new black ones) are worse.
My gaugemaster model D can't handle many locos under power at once, but I've not had any issues at all with it.
My h&m duette is a great controller, despite the huge gap between off and the lowest speed setting if set to full wave low resistance. It gets warm when switched to high resistance for slow speed running, but it is built like a tank so can handle it.
Thanks for sharing - that's quite interesting about the R695 - I wonder what causes that?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
some of the higher power dcc boosters in the us are rated for 8 amps but they do take a fraction of a second to cut the power if it goes over that
and if sam were to set one up on one side of his layout and have a short on the other side if he dont have feeder wires the resistance of the track would prevent it being able to even get to the 8 amp threshold
Yes the DCC controllers have much better protection, due to the much higher current they can supply!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Another way to kill controllers:
Run a Bachmann loco on a Hornby controller.
A hornby one broke and threw 5532 off the track
The controller at 0:22 is the one I had
haha really?! Which controller was that?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@Dani Rijnsburger The HM2000 or the Gaugemaster Twin Track are probably your best bet. But just be careful not to short circuit them!
Absolute rubbish.
And that is train cross contamination
A very interesting video and very well done. It's good to know what controller has a short circuit mechanism, cheers Sam. Do expensive DCC controllers have short circuit protection???? I suppose they would??
Thanks a lot Guy - yes most of my DCC controllers just die immediately when shorted - it would be interesting to learn if they all do!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
We have a Digitrax DB150 on our layout that is capable of around 5 amps. If you short it out it detects it within a second or so, cuts power, and beeps to indicate a short. It then periodically attempts to power back up but cuts out quickly if it's still shorted. Because of DCC's alternating signal, you can actually hear shorts because the arcs produce an audible noise.
I had a loco that derailed on my layout once. It happened when I went left the layout. Engine derailed, got snagged on something on the switch preventing the motor from turning. It was left long enough where the body of the engine was in the process or melting.
Ahh sorry to hear that mate - that's a sad story :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
My hornby controller only 2 years old has an interesting defect where if you don't push down the black circle that controlls the amount of power going to the track. It gives the loco above full power. I've had to use a peice of wood effectively as a handbrake
haha that's pretty funny - I think I'd quite enjoy that!! ;D
The potentiometer must be faulty, which is quite interesting!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
You know the video is a video is ‘don’t try this at home’ kind of video when you see a controller on fire !!😂
haha absolutely!! ;D
Nice test Sam. The results were quite shocking 🤯
haha thank you, I agree! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great explaination of how the controllers work also which one is the best 👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾😍😍😍😍😍😄😄😄😄
Thank you!! I prefer the HM2000 or the Gaugemaster myself! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Looks like the mehano controller is very good. Do you know where I can get one?
Amazon train sets is the best bet - most of them cost less than £100, and you get some cool locos and wagons with them too! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thanks🙂
i suspect that the controller that made the 'click' sound was a equipped with a 'thermal cut out' - a switch operated by a coil which warms as the current flowing through it rises, this heat is sufficient to bend, through thermal expansion, a bi-metallic strip which is the switch, or operates a switch. a better method is a circuit which measures the current flowing (like your ammeter does) and at a particular value operates a relay (or power transistor), that sort of set up can be designed to stay switched off until the fault is cleared. The thermal cut out type reset themselves when they cool down and current can flow again if the controller has not been switched off or the fault not cleared. It is surprising tho' that in 2020 any controller would not have decent overload protection. Your old Triang controller is very similar to one i first used in the 1970's and it was old then! We built a thermal protection device and put it in the wiring to the track. I have a suspicion that Triang thought the odd burnt out motor would be good for there sales of spares - motors were damn expensive and always required replacement carbon brushes and the commutator slots cleaned. Ah those were the days...
Yes you're right I think - that explains the delay! Agreed - a more sophisticated overload-sensing circuit would benefit controllers like this greatly - I assume that's what those modern Hornby sets use, to great effect!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very interesting indeed, really makes me wonder how my own old märklin transformator would do.
haha yeah - knowing Marklin, I imagine it'd perform very safely!!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Tomorrow is the 20th anniversary of Thomas and the Magic Railroad. What are your thoughts on it Sam? I think it’s pretty good.
I must say I've never seen it - maybe I should! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)