Why not throw the Ring into the Sea?
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2024
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At the bottom of the sea, the ring would've eventually been discovered by a being more devious and evil than Sauron himself-James Cameron
Best comment ever haha
A truly horrifying idea!
And here I was thinking it would be bad, Lovecraftian horrors aside, if an average dolphin or orca grabbed the One Ring!
Imagine being forced to watch Avatar for eternity; it gives me conniptions.
that's an hilarious thought, thanks for sharing
@@eagle_and_the_dragon Gods forbid.
*Throws the Ring into the sea*
"Well, that's the future generations problem now."
Except that Cthulhu wannabe found it 1 year later. Whoops, now here comes a league-high tsunami! Middle Earth is now the Middle Ocean.
Yeah, I can see that.
-Baby Boomer Frodo
Jumanji board game found a way. Curses tend to find a way. Having Cthulhu find it is not something anyone wants
in real life we wouldve definitely done that
Sauron be like: F it, ima send orc scuba divers
Seems like a job for the ORCas really.
I could see them building some sketchy ass old school diving bells
All it would take is some bottom feeding aquatic creature to suck it up, and then for that same creature to wash up on shore and vomit it out and then for some beach strollers to see it on the beach and take possession of it only to have it identified by someone later (like Gandalf).
@@davidleon6831 Nice one! 🤣
Sponge bob gonna rule the 7 seas
Keeping thr seas mysterious was a great writing choice. Invokes the same fears we have in real life. The ocean is unknown to us.
and was even moreso to medieval people. "beyond what we can see from the shore here be monsters"
Speak for yourself
In the first movie Gandalf explained this question very well -"Always remember Frodo, the Ring is trying to get back to its master. It wants to be found." . The ring is not an object that would just lay helplessly and it will surely seek Sauron.
Exactly. Tolkien described how the ring would become lighter or heavier in order to be transported, or how it would influence the creatures around it to change hands and get closer to its creator. The ring would indeed be found by someone or something, even in the ocean, and eventually return to Sauron.
@@bluenorth3965Heck, it's not hard to imagine the ring influencing a fish considered to be a delicacy to swallow it. Fishermen catch the rare fish, sell it to a noble, noble finds and abuses ring, Sauron now knows exactly where it is.
Ok fuck it. Pour tons of cement on it. Then a lot of metal. Make this shit big and heavy. Nothing can move or eat it.
@@goldgunscantshoot973 nah, much better idea is to send two hobbits with the ring directly to Mordor 😀
@@bluenorth3965 yet the ring failed to return to its master for how many thousands of years, not even in the ocean...
The octopus who finds the ring:
🐙 💍
I shall call this holy site of my ascension.... Ry'leh!
It turned him into Cthulhu!
R'lyeh*
@@darioidk2508 hoyyyaaAA
Then the channel who discusses the lore would be called "In Deep Ink"
@@GeraldM_inNC Nope, he gifted the ring to Cthulhu himself to get his favours.
You left out the best part of Galadriel's speech. It still sends shivers down my spine! "That is how it would begin."
I am genuinely impressed by how thoroughly Tolkien covers up any potential "plot hole" or seeming odd decision in his story. He must of truly spent years just planning the story in his head.
Eagles to Mordor
@@seanrcollierMordor has those flying beasts the Nazgul used and thousands of archers on the look out
@@seanrcollier
Eagles couldn't perform serious long distance hauling, they weren't strong enough.
Nazguls would snatch them from mid-air.
Sauron would see them coming well beforehand, if not for anything else then because he senses the One Ring.
Also Mordor would likely have other anti-air capabilities.
@@tappajaav don't you dare talk that kind of smack about Eagles
@@seanrcollier Pure facts.
Yeah I think the most important point is indeed that Sauron was going to conquer the world even if he didn't find the ring, and destroying it was their only chance to survive, even in the short term.
Came here to say this. There was absolutely no alternative to defeating Sauron other than to destroy it. It's never explicitly stated but by the end, it is abundantly clear that if The Ring was anywhere other than in the Cracks of Doom, the future ME would be forfeit. No video necessary to explain this...
Hard to say if it's the most important, but very important nonetheless. Saron eventually getting the ring is relevant, but so would be a Lovecraftian monster getting the power hidden in the ring. It's impossible to gauge if that would also spell absolute doom on the whole of Middle Earth.
It says something about the desperate nature of the war that, excluding Gandalf's suggestion, the least worst idea is Boromir wanting to take the power of the ring for Gondor.
@@andrewsutherland7913That or like, Galadriel seemed to have a plan for it, I’d be down with “beautiful and terrible” instead of just straight up terrible
I can 100% imagine the Ring taking over a sealife form to take it up and wash it up at a shore, near a fisherman or such.
The aquatic lifeform might not even understand why it is carrying that golden object upwards or even be that greatly aware of it.
Never underestimate the Rings hold over mortal beings.
A kraken finding the ring and becoming the new ring-lord is my new headcanon origin story for Ctulhu.
You haven't read Lovecraft, have you.
@@enekaitzteixeira7010do you know what “headcanon” means
@@thatguy4076 Yes I obviously do. My point is not that such isn't what really happens in the story, but rather that the structure and vibe that Lovecraft created in his world is entirely incompatible with a Middle Earth combination. For example, the reason humans go mad when looking at the Ancient Ones is because they come from a world with different a geometry of space and our mind cannot tolerate such alien understanding without breaking. It's a completely different setting than LOTR.
Ah, having a world that is both round and has a straight path to undying lands (where old, powerful beings from outside the world live) sounds like perfectly normal geometry to me... 😉
lmao you failed@@enekaitzteixeira7010
I would also like to add that throwing the ring anywhere isn't as easy as it sounds. Remember when Gandalf first tells Frodo about the ring he has him try to throw it away. When Frodo winds up he discovers that the ring is not even in his hand, but he had put it back in his pocket. Nowhere in the history of Middle Earth has any bearer of the ring actually succeeded in wilfully throwing the ring away.
It's one of the best parts of the lore too. A thing so powerful and evil... and it binds itself to you! Truly disturbing. It's a curse you love and protect.
The one exception to this is Bilbo. He gave up the ring in the film and that's the only time someone dropped it deliberately that we see, it's a powerful moment that has stuck with me personally. Boromir didn't give up the ring on the pass of caradhras when holding the chain with Frodo forcefully taking it from him. Even Samwise who was the real hero couldn't simply drop the ring in Cirith Ungol.
@@dstreetz91 Funny thing too, he had to DROP the ring. He couldn't leave himself to put it somewhere intentionally, he could only let it fall
@@lucasporto9285 The way he slowly turns his hand in the movie, as if he can't actually get it off his person in any other way, save for awkwardly letting it slide off his hand.
an invisible Watcher in the Water would have been awesome, terrifying, and hilarious lmao. it reminds me of Invisible Garbage Truck Jerry 😂
Terrifying, right up until he runs out of gas.
I don't think the ring of power makes you invisible by default. Sauron was never invisible when he wore it. The ring makes it's wearer magically exceptional at whatever they were already good at. It's a massive buff to you're best stat. Frodo and Bilbo's best stat was stealth, so the ring made them incridiblely stealthy to the point where few beings could detect them.
It wouldn't be a good thing for some deep sea Lovecraftian monster to become magically exceptional at whatever was already their strongest ability.
The invisibility thing wasn't invisibility. Instead it was about physical form in the spiritual world. Frodo and Bilbo were mortal and from the physical plane of being, they did not have an analogous form in the spiritual world, so when they put on the ring they become visible in the spiritual world and invisible in the physical one. Gandalf, being basically an angelic being, had form in both worlds, so he would not have become invisible. Sauron is the same sort of being as Gandalf and also was never invisible. Same with elves due to how they connect to both the physical and the spiritual. I've always assumed that beings like Aargon who, if they put on the ring, might initially become invisible, but would quickly learn how to control that power and would be able to be visible in both the physical and the spiritual realms.
Bilbo and Frodo never actually ever used the ring. They just took advantage of a weird side effect from putting it on.
@@aceofspades9503 true, and that's why the Witch King and the Nazgul are also invisible in the books (the Witch King's crown floats above his unseen head). They were mortal men who through Sauron's influence gained access to the same power you describe. Incredible storytelling, no? I've always loved those details
Why not put it in a jar and put that jar in a even bigger jar?
and then throw the jar into the sea and put that sea into an ocean?
@@siroswaldfortitude5346 heck yeah
that's a solid plan
Because then a guy comes along and I'm skipping some steps but then the jar breaks
@@Sol_Invictus_ if the big jar breaks then the smaller jar will continue to contain it. Don't worry I thought about this happening.
Ikr
How is the ocean so different from a river?
For some reason the idea of there being unknown creatures in the sea as a reason to not hide the ring there has stayed in my mind since my mother first read the books to me when I was 6 or 7. It was so mysterious and a little scary to wonder what kind of creatures might be in the oceans of middle earth.
I think mom paraphrased the whole of the council of Elrond (that chapter is dense even for adults). Basically what the grandfather in the Princess Bride does. I’m forever grateful that she made it accessible for my brother and I, who were WAY too young to fully understand much of Tolkien’s prose style. But we loved the story so much and that’s all thanks to her.
My story is much the same. My mom read "The Hobbit" to me when I was 6. I liked it so much that I insisted she read "Lord of the Rings" to me as soon as we finished "The Hobbit". She was kind enough to do so, even though she warned me it would be harder for me to understand at that age. While she read the whole thing, including the Council of Elrond, she did a good job of explaining the things that were over my head in a way I could understand. Once we had finished the trilogy, I kept going back and reading the books myself, over and over again, for the rest of my childhood, though after reading "Fellowship" I tended to just read Frodo and Sam's adventures and skip the rest, since the Frodo and Sam story arc was much less complex than what the rest of the characters were doing.
You dont need fantasy to be terrified of deep sea monsters. Our real oceans have creatures that sound like something Tolkein whipped up, and we have barely scratched the surface of what can be found down there
Even ignoring that, I think something else is important to note here - Sauron's life may be tied to the Ring, and he may be stronger with it... but he doesn't need it. He's already winning. He's already unstoppable. It's made clear multiple times that the only thing the Free Peoples can hope to do in fighting him is delay the inevitable. Throwing the Ring into the sea, even if we assume they're lucky and it's never found by some horrific creature like the Watcher, it doesn't stop Sauron. It enrages him, it holds him back slightly, but he's still got more than enough power to destroy the world of men.
The only way to actually stop him is destroying it, not hiding it - and that can only be done in Mount Doom.
😊+
A megladon shark gets the ring
One of the things that has always confounded me about Tolkien's legendarium is how the Ainur were spiritual and able to wear physical forms as raiment but also potentially get stuck in them if they expended too much power. I'd love to see a video exploring that - from Sauron being stuck in Huan's jaws despite his shape shifting to how he escaped Nuemenor to why Morgoth had a limp and face scritches after his battle with Fingolfin.
Well explained! Reading the book as an elementary schooler, I thought they should have put the Ring on a ship going to Valinor but thrown it into the "straight" sea near the Undying Lands, where it could never be swept back to the "bent seas" accessible by normal means from Middle Earth. At the time, I was ignoring how hopeless the overall military cause was for those opposing Sauron, even without the Ring.
I wondered if it couldn’t be destroyed in Valinor, since the elves were going anyway, and then the rest of the stuff could still have happened in middle earth.
Was there no way to destroy the ring in Valinor?
@@mrs.c1755 It was actually forbidden to be brought to Valinor as it was considered to be burden of Middle Earth not Valinor nor it's residents
@@VoresD Thank you, that makes sense!
Sauron couldn't find the ring for thousands of years, nor even when hobbits reached Mordor itself...
5
And one final problem: Would you be able to "drop" the ring...in the sea or into the Cracks of Doom? Bombadil might be able to, but until Bilbo, no one was able to voluntarily "give up" the ring. Even Frodo couldn't do it at the end; Gollum had to unwittingly do it. To try and "cast it into the sea" would just as difficult as to cast it into the Cracks of Doom...
No, you could certainly cast it into the sea. While it might be difficult to give up, it is possible to give up the Ring. Ultimately, being unable to cast the Ring into the Cracks of Doom is a combination of the Ring's total power at the place of its creation and the inability to willingly destroy the Ring. Throwing the Ring into the Deep wouldn't have any possibility of destroying it, and it would be far away from its place of making.
In fairness on the Bilbo point: up until Bilbo, only 2 others (not counting Sauron) had ever even touched the ring.
Not exacly a big enough sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions ;-)
Not quite as difficult; its power grew as it got closer to the place it was made after all, so doing it far away at sea would have marginally less hard.
Could it just be that greater exposure to The One Ring increases one's attachment to it? Frodo had been in possession of it for quite some time.
Bilbo did NOT give it up willingly tho. he needed Gandalf to tell him it must stay behind and go to Frodo
Somehow the Ring returned....
I see what you did there
Some normal jumping fish gets the ring and grows wings. "They fly now?!?"
Sauraman has a daughter we've never met, she moves into Frodos house and call herself a Baggins. Sad we aren't even joking now😂
@@JimJamJ4 oh no, I hope Disney or Amazon will not find it, since I am sure they would think it is great idea. Judging by Delphini Riddle...
@@a.w.4708Quick, throw this comment section into the sea!
I like the idea of a Mosasaur claiming the ring for itself and trying to challenge Sauron as the only "saurian" worthy of ruling Middle Earth
Robert, you give me answers to fantasy questions I didn’t know I had. Love your channel and please keep up the excellent work.
After his analysis of why they shouldn't just throw or hide it away somewhere, Gandalf adds: "and, as for me, I pity even his slaves," which I feel is such an important part of JRRTS' theme of Pity and Mercy, echoed so many times in the books.
Exactly. Gandalf doesn't want to kick the problem down the road a few years or a few centuries. They have an opportunity to end the threat of Sauron once and for all and free everyone who lives in fear of him, including the people he's enslaved.
Yup. As Immortals. Sauron has Time. He knows what is loat will soon be found again.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Not only is there the psuedo-infiinite possibilities of "something" moving the ring to a more accessible place over time, but we also know the Ring has a will in and of itself, so it would not just be the random chance of nature to worry about, but also the purposeful machinations of the ring to be found again. It would not be a permanent, or even a truly helpful, solution.
This is basically the reason why Bombadil couldn't keep the ring. He's essentially just a force of nature. Sure, he'll never use the ring - but he doesn't view the ring as anything important either. The ring would just scamper off.
The Ring has a will on his own: once in 1000 years, when the story demands it...
Exactly. We already know it ever so subtly changes size and taughtness on it's host, or seems to fall through the air in just such a way it lands on its host's finger. It'd do the same to the ocean currents, gently drifting along the tides until it finally reaches a new host on the shore.
@@EyePierce Wasn't Gandalf or Tom himself concerned that Tom would most likely just lose it out of pure disregard?
Great video - informative and enjoyable as always.
Kudos.
Sauron would just employ scuba orks
A line of of them, from the shore all they way down to the point the ring is, they achieve this by sending one deeper into the water, and the whole line moving up with him. They then stop and pass air by mouth, from the current one who's head is above water to the one in front of him, and repeat further down the line. Then they each move forward one roughly orc sized space and repeat the process until one can pick up the ring and begin to pass it back up the line. Ring retrieved.
You know what I love about these lore videos? I feel like I’m listening to a well ventured hobbit who has many a tale to tell
You know what *I* love about these lore videos? I keep gettin' older but they stay the same age...
Yes they do...yes they do😏
Valid
It’s amazing, to me, how people with dumb “deep thought” seem intelligent, to some others.
It’s okay. Makes it easier, for people like me. Now, you’re all just wearing signs on your shirts, that let me know not to associate with you.
If this is in any way deep thought, thought provoking, or anything of that nature..? I don’t know what to tell you.
Just reading the title, I think “Even an IMBECILE knows it’s not destroyed & can still be found, then utilized. Soooo…WHY is this even a question?”
Done. Over. Why do you need ANY explanation, to think about? It’s as easy as a “Yes/No” question. Lol!
@@BrottenGuy
If you carry these strong negative emotions inside you, why would you even click on the Video
To go in the comments and call online people IMBECILE who simply enjoy listening…
Poor soul you… i hope that helped your frustrated small ass ego
I can't help but think of these nameless horrors and then think of Tom Bombadil. Of course, Tom isn't a nameless horror, but he was seemingly born from the creation of the world. We see how powerful Tom is. These nameless horrors that dwell deep underground and in the sea were also born of the creation of the world.
It starts to make sense why Gandalf, an immortal demigod, feared these horrors so greatly.
They're not even born of the world most of the time. They came from the Void. Ungoliant came from the Void, not Arda.
I have wondered what might happen if Old Man Willow acquired the Ring - and then the rings of the Nine (sent to retrieve the One Ring and rendered into wood).
Tom Bombadil is definitely horror. Literature horror.....
These horrors are clearly a legacy of Lovecraft in Tolkien's work. They are unexplainable beings with unexplainable goals, and they live in the margins of the realms of the gods of Middle Earth.
If some of them live in the oceanic abyss, then it must be out of Ulmo's range, and the ring would do anything to avoid going there, just like it didn't try to reach any of the horrors hidden in the deep mountains.
The ring has no effect on Tom because he's literally not from this world, he's like a cameo from a different book, allowed to exist in Middle Earth because the author said so. The ring probably wouldn't have any effect on the nameless horrors either, for the same reason.
@@bdleo300 Ah yes, but you see he has a name, so is not a nameless horror.
Edit: Actually that's a great way to handle nameless horrors, just give it a name. Instead of freaking out about the mass of writhing tentacles emerging from the water, just go "Oh, hi Mark."
Even without the Ring Sauron would keep grinding away at Middle Earth's forces until he won eventually. This was the one chance to take him out.
I would love to see a video on the sinking of Beleriand. Discussing what was lost, who escaped and possible explanations of why it happened and who benefitted the most.
“LOTR from the one Ring’s perspective.”
I enjoy your perspective videos, and this is one of the few characters you haven’t covered yet. I wonder what it felt when it was cut from its masters hand. Or held under the lonely mountain in wait. Or picked up by an unlikely hobbit. How it must have screamed with all its power to save itself from Frodo.
Smegol, is that you?
@@SullytaanSmeagol, after biting the Ring off of Frodo's hand: "YES, Precious!"
The Ring, after being stuck with Frodo for over a year: "Never in my life did I ever expect I'd be grateful to end up back in your possession, but here we are, I suppose."
Frodo, who didn't just magically forget what the Ring had done to him over the past year, much less the last 5 minutes: *tackles Smeagol off the cliff.*
The Ring: "...Well, shit."
I like this idea. Thought it was already covered
hand hand river dirt gollum hobbits pockets pockets finger envelope fire hand neck neck finger hobbits neck neck neck pocket finger LAVA
I don't know if Lord of the rings has a Kracken or not, but imagine sailing into the middle of the ocean and dropping the ring into the sea, only to have some sea monster wear it and turn into a monstrous invisible tool for sauron.
it has something similar called "the watcher in the water". Its not in the sea, instead lurking in a lake beneath moria's walls, but the precedent for some sort of kraken does exist.
The effect of the ring depends on the wearer. Particularly their species (for lack of a better term). Hobbits are highly resistant; dwarves get greedy; etc
I think a small Goldfish would be more of a threat, as you wouldn't expect it to be evil.
@@siroswaldfortitude5346 😂 THIS ⬆️ Thank you !!! 🤣
The ring doesnt turn people invisible, it increases your natural talents by like 100, hobbits aee naturally sneaky, and because they cant properly use the ring it just makes them invisible.
This was a good video. It didn't delve too deep into the lore and it addressed a question plausible to even a casual reader/viewer. Thank you.
This question is directly asked and answered like 20 chapters in to book 1 of the fellowship
y'all wanna make sharks invisible?
One thing Robert i never understood. Perhaps it is my lack of legendarium knowledge but how did anyone know that the only way to destroy the ring was to throw it into Mount Doom? Celebrimbor's tutelage from Anatar? An educated guess? A slippage from one of Sauron's underlings? I'd enjoy a In Deep Geek dive on that topic if already not covered in the past. Ty sir!
That one is pretty simple and he’s mentioned it before: it’s the hottest forge in middle earth and the only one hot and intense enough to destroy the most powerful ring. Some of the lesser client rings Sauron made could be and were destroyed by dragon fire or potentially in the great dwarves forge furnaces, but the one ring was too strong for any of those. Only mt doom is hot enough.
A very good question, I second this. I think Gandalf has a line about no fire men or elves can make is hot enough and that dragonfire might be hot enough, but it's never really made clear how they know this. We know Isildur didn't try to destroy it and he's the only one to have held it aside from Sauron prior to it getting lost. Would be really cool to get a video on this.
Celebrimbor and Sauron mastered the making of the rings between them, knowledge would have been passed on from the sacking of Eregion and realistically, ring knowledge wasn't kept anywhere near as secret before Sauron's duplicity was revealed
@@adamseidel9780 This simply repeats the subject of the question, it doesn't answer it.
Gandalf made this pretty clear. Even the internal fires of the mightiest dragon to ever live were insufficient to destroy the One Ring. Even though they had consumed many other rings of power.
Never thought about this but picturing a Kraken in the ocean acquiring the ring is terrifying.
Especially when it becomes invisible be confusing for the sailors of every ship it drags into the depths afterwards.
One of the Nameless Things called the Watcher in the Water. It did go first after Frodo afterall.
a kraken would still stand no chance against Ulmo, and he would know where the ring was since it was in water for years.
bc then it would be dark lord salmon LMFAO
Just discovered this channel. Fantastic content. Very well read. Feels like I'm getting a lesson from a wise teacher. Great work keep it up.
I’d like to see more about the First Age, maybe looking at the Great Battles, discussions about why Elves build underground cities, and maybe a deeper dive into some of the symbolism found in the Legendarium and Tolkien’s faith… since you asked for suggestions.
Only 1 underground city, right? One of the cave things Elves were involved with was just a maze protecting the actual city, which was not in the caves themselves.
Most Elf kingdoms are in the woods, at the feet of mountains.
second that, always feels like a glossed over time
@@Richard_Nickerson Two underground cities, I think (Menegroth and Nargothrond)
@@maciejszulc2684Mengroth, Nargothrond, Thranduil's Halls.
@@maciejszulc2684
I've never pictured Menegroth as being wholly underground, and it was constructed by the Dwarves for him as a fortress...
Dwarves and fortress explain the location. The fact that the entirety of the kingdom of Doriath was hidden from the world also explains the location. I don't see much to explore regarding "why", especially given that it wasn't technically built by Elves.
Edit: Nargothrond is the 1 I was referring to originally.
When you mentioned a lovecraftian horror finding the ring I couldn't help but think of the ring landing on Cthulhu when it was thrown into the ocean causing him to wake and put the ring on causing Sauron's mind and soul to be shredded due to now being linked to the eternal nightmare that is one of The Great Old Ones. It was pretty amusing to imagine.
The Watcher in the Water was the closest thing when it went after Frodo. The Nameless things seem to be Lovecraftian type of monsters.
That thought is hilarious .. Saurons Eye starting to blink and strobe like a Disco-Ball, Orcs going crazy left and right, gouging their eyes out, heads exploding ... peace for a few decades and suddenly Kaiju Attacks ..
But seriously. .. With Dragons, Eagles, Trolls and Balrogs as land dwelling remnants of the great war ( the big one before the rings .. were Sauron was just a underling ) .. I am sure are is some seriously forked beasts down in the depths of Middle-Earth.
Well, being Sauron himself one of the "great old ones" of his universe, I doubt that Cthullu would do anything to his mind or soul in any way, remember he was a servant of Morgoth, something infinitely more evil and dark than any Cthullu mythos deity...
@@yaneinherjar No he isn't one of the "great old ones" of his universe as he is the equivalent of a fallen angel just like Morgoth who is more or less the Lord of the Rings equivalent of Lucifer as Tolkien took a lot of inspiration from things like Christianity and a few other religions.
The Cthulhu mythos deities on the other hand are far stronger and older to the point they are beyond the entire concept of good and evil while also being incomprehensible in form and thought to everything but each other which is what makes them so horrifying. Point is nether Morgoth or Sauron have anything on the Cthulhu mythos deities as not only are they weaker they are also still bound to the concept of good and evil while the Cthulhu mythos deities aren't.
@@DeathlordSlavik he's one of the Ainur, he was present during the Ainulindale, the creation of everything, how can he not be one of the great old ones?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Also, he was very powerful, so much that he created the one ring, arguably the most powerful object ever created in the whole history of middle earth and even Arda, besides the Silmarils, which are lost, destroyed or untangible, the one ring reigns supreme in the hierarchy of magical objects, idk how you got confused as to why Sauron is one of the great old ones of Eä...
just found this channel. It's amazing. Love your videos!
This is a concise, logical explanation. Thank you.
One thing I’d like to know more of that’s been touched on in other videos is Arnor. How it rose from the Numenorian remnants, what its relationship with Gondor was like, how it fell, and how the Dunedain rangers carried on its legacy. Did they intend to bring Arnor back as a powerful kingdom, or simply feel honor-bound to protects its former lands? How did the Shire evolve in Arnor’s lands and what was the relationship between men and hobbits as they grew apart?
From what i"ve read Tolkien wrote VERY little about arnor.
Arnor seemed to have a kind of loose control over the Shire, the hobbits saw themselves as part of it but they weren't involved much besides sending some archers to battles. The hobbits had a depressing end though
@@owenb8636 Isn't that imperialism?:) The people of bree seemed to think they were always autonomous, but Strider says that its under his control after the war.
See more in Appendix A to LoTR. Some small additions are given in Vol 12 of CT series. I just found a historical source for the story of its last king who was lost in sea - A similar fate that happen to a medieval English king.
Wiizardss and Warriors has a series on that
What video should you make next? A subject that intrigues me is a form of what-if. In one of his letters, Tolkien responded to a fan's question of "What if Gollum had truly repented, as he came near to but for sam's accidental interruption?" Tolkien's answer was that the ordeal of Shelob's Lair would have been avoided, the final journey through Mordor would have been far easier, and when Frodo proved unable to destroy the Ring, Gollum would have seized it and thrown himself into the fire voluntarily, as atonement for his past evil. He then went on to say that of course that would have been a far poorer story, which is the reason he as author never considered letting it happen that way.
Tolkien also pointed out (in keeping with his own Roman Catholic beliefs) that repentance and redemption was always possible, though never easy, so by the internal logic of his "subcreation" such an outcome was possible; just not a good dramatic choice.
That brings me to the intriguing though, and possible video topic: are there other cases in the various tales across the Legendarium, where Providence seemed to be pointing out an easier path which character's failed to take, only for that same Providence to ensure that "none can alter the music in my despite." One obvious possibility is noting that Faramir had the riddle dream far more times than Boromir, and it might have been Faramir who was intended by Eru to go to Rivendell (the breaking of the Fellowship would then not have happened, or at least not in the same way, and thus Frodo's whole journey would likely have been much easier).
Great stuff, thanks Robert
Hi James,
Have you covered the Barrowdowns? Or the Barrow-Wrights yet? A follow-up question of inquiry, are they related to the Nazgul/Witch King of Angmar? If I recall, the blade that Merry takes from the tombs causes injury to the Witch-King during Eowyn and Merry's battle. Your video content has restored the desire for me to revisit these books, thank you and please continue the great work!
The problem with that is even if it took 5 million years, it will eventually come back to sauron
it’d be fine. technologies would’ve evolved to the point of over pollution like where we are now, and everyone would have died several millions ago. By the time Sauron got it back, all he could rule are microplastics-the giant middle finger humanity left for him
Agreed on all points, but further adding to the danger of throwing it in the sea... It's been a while since I read LOTR, so I'm not sure if it's explicitly spelled out in the text that the ring changes size, but it's pretty certain that Sauron, Isildur, Smeagol/Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo all have different size hands and fingers. Yet the ring fits all of them. It's magic and fits whatever being is tempted by it. A fish or sea dragon or some other potential wearer in the deep not having true fingers would hardly be much of an obstacle to the one ring, considering it can adapt itself to fit a fallen Maiar or a hobbit.
Which brings me to the other thing I was thinking about, why in addition to all the reasons you listed... the ring is animate. It's not simply an object; it has some form awareness. As Gandalf says (at least in the movie, can't remember if it's a direct quote), it WANTS to be found.
I would love to see a video about the stairs of Cirith Ungol. Why were the stairs constructed, how, and by whom? What was their purpose? Who else knew about them, other than Gollum? Gandalf? Galadriel? Aragorn? Faramir?
Also, your helpful video about why Sauron can’t see Bilbo when he uses the One ring made me want to know more about the history of Amon Hen. Who made it? Who could use its magic? What’s its story?
I don’t know if there are answers to these questions in Tolkien’s writings, but both places are as mysterious as they are fascinating to me. I want to know their stories.
Wonderful video as always. I'd love to hear about just how dangerous was the crossing of the Helcaraxë by Fingolfin
Another way to look at it is the lesson, perhaps
Throwing the ring away is the same as putting off problems until tomorrow
The next day will always arrive, just like the ring left alone will cause problems in the future
But taking care of it immediately makes sure that it never has to be a problem ever again
I like that. 😊
That's definitely the theme that Tolkein was creating for dealing with the ring, I think it's something to consider that the writing and worldbuilding is so complete that we can discuss the in-world details and reasoning to why it makes sense and works. The theme is not the justification for the actions and events, but we walk away from the story with that very lesson embedded in our minds, whether subconsciously or consciously.
I find in modern media the theme or point the writer is trying to get across is often the only driver of the events and actions, and you can't really get any further than " They did this because that's what they needed to do for the writer to get his point across".
Apologies if you have covered this topic before, but would love to hear more about just how powerful the dead men of Dunharrow were in comparison to other powerful beings.
In the book all they did was scare the corsairs off their ships, right? Boo! 😁
Okay, fear is a big part of the Ringwraiths' power, so it's not so simple.
They are just spooky ghosts, as the above poster said. Ghosts can't affect the living like they do in the movies
These are so nice and relaxing.
This is EXCELLENT.
Would love a video breaking down the Witch King vs Gandalf and how/why a wraith can compete on power levels with a jacked&tanned levelled up Maia.
Big boob Gandalf
"we should seek a final end to this menace, even if we do not hope to make one" Wisdom lvl 9000! That line is so true. Great vid btw, this is a great question to cover.
Great video. I’d already read the title but it’s still hilarious to hear you say such a thing out loud, it’s just so simple.
Oof, that part about the squid going after Frodo was a terrifying detail I hadn't connected until now.
Ngl though, Kraken ring wraiths would be dope
I've always wanted to hear you talk more about the dragons of the north. Where did they come from? How were they made? How powerful was Glaurung, or Ancalagon the Black? Where did they go? And, given enough time and distance from Morgoth, could some have been less evil?
The history and role of the Dunedain, including Aragorn's immediate forefathers.
Great as always! ❤😊
You have a really great voice Mr!
Nice video.
One thing I often wondered about concerning The One is whether or not Ulmo knew of it's whereabouts. In the Silmarillion we are told that Ulmo hears all whispers and rumors that touch the rivers and seas. So, did he know the Ring lay in the depths of the Anduin, and if so why had he not told anyone?
My guess (if I were to answer my own question) is to keep it secret from Ossë, who had for a time been persuaded to serve Melkor. That mercurial nature may be tempted again if Ossë were ever to discover the One's location.
Because the Valar are pretty inactive overall. That’s why Sauron continues as he does, he’s confident they won’t do anything. And he was right.
@@honeybadger1810 well there's a reason for that, mountains crumble, seas drain and continents change when the Valar always get involved
To add to the point that the Valar exert Earth-shattering power to declare they had enough - I like to emphasize that they wish to restrain themselves from such drastic solutions. Deities of many stories hold back from direct intervention for as long as mortals are still able to help and save themselves. They'll save that power for the Grand Finale.
@@mattdamutt5681 I'd also like to imagine that they hold back until the last moment because they benefit from the struggles against Sauron. They will need every battle-hardened soul they can get their hands on when Morgoth returns from The Void.
He didn't know, was unconcerned, or was under the command of manwe not to interfere.
I would like to see you do videos on the lore of The Chronicles of Narnia. There's plenty of material there to tackle, from exploring the individual mosters and creatures of Narnia to C. S. Lewis' Christianity and how that influenced his work, and it even relates to Tolkien as he was very influential in inspiring Lewis.
And the Cosmic Trilogy too! Perelandra needs at least a couple of videos.
This was an interesting thought exploration. Even though the answer was a bit obvious, the 'Why' was not so apparent. I appreciate this and how you explored it, thank you!
I would really like a video about Eomer's character! And to learn more about the history of Rohan in general.
What would I like to see you address in the Tolkien Legendarium? Small odd facts that show up in the Lost Tales. Like Isldur being 7ft tall, Saurman having Isldur's armor and other accoutrements in Orthanc, the mysterious tale of the one Hobbit 'murder' (hobbitcide?), Queen Berúthiel and her cats, the Kinstrife, Rhovanion, and where DID the Elvenking get his wine?
I really enjoy all of your Tolkien videos, you have a wonderful reading voice and are very easy to listen to.
Ideas I'd love to hear you make a video about: How was Christopher Tolkien invaluable to Middle Earth, how did the legendarium evolve over the decades, how did the maps come to be made, who or what lives in the areas of the Shire that border on the land where Eregion used to be, what the fall of Eregion was like, how the first elves met the first men, and pretty much everything you can find about the Valar, Valindor, and the undying lands. Also, an epic multipart retelling of Hurin would be cool, please.
Is this even a question? Sauron was poised to conquer Middle Earth without even needing the ring. Throwing it into the sea would have been foolish.
A really good video! well described and well narrated. It makes me intrigued by a version of middle-earth that saw the ring thrown into the ocean for long enough the continents did change - what would the world look like if the only magic in it was sauron and his ring? Would sauron eventually diminish, alongside all other magic? The greater part of his power was tied in the ring, and while he didn't need it physically in his grasp during the age of men to access that power, would that connection waver as magic left the world? I can picture a wizened, ancient sauron, something like gollum perhaps, finally rediscovering his ring as its resting place rose again onto the land, potentially millions of years after his armies destroyed all resistance, but almost as long since the magic deserted himi, all but the minimum needed to keep him alive.
My plan would have been pretty similar to what the Fellowship agreed on at the council of Elrond with one exception; The one ring would be cast in a tiny mold of some kind of super elven concrete, not increasing its physical weight or size greatly, but completely disallowing anyone to put it on, accidentally or intentionally. Of course, my story would not be as good, so...
But the problem is, Frodo had to use it several times. Without that, it would be impossible to reach mount doom
@@krzysztofgradalski3584 If the rings wasn't destroyed, Gondor would probably fall any way.
The ring can change shape, I would imagine that it could break the mold if it wanted
@@heypistolero That's probably the case and I considered that. But maybe the elves have something really tricky and powerful to hold its shape. There's a future video discussion: how much kinetic torsion power does the one ring have in its ability to change shape. 🤣
@@krzysztofgradalski3584 Frodo accidentally put it on in the Prancing Pony and he just got nabbed by Strider. He put it on at Weathertop and got stabbed. He put it on at Mount Doom and Gollum bit it off his hand. Certainly this affected the outcome of the story, but at no time did it really help Frodo on his quest, but I'm sure I'm missing some other times because I'm exhausted from work.
Very nice video!
Regarding your question:
I would love to see a video on gollums relationship with Shelob
During rereading I stumbeld over this passage:
"Already years before Gollum had beheld her. Smeagol who pried into all dark holes and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his wearines beside him cutting him off from light an from regret and he has promised to bring her food"
I find the thought very interesting that Shelob held Gollum back from redemption especially because this ist the only passage metioning it
excellent analysis
I always got the impression from the books that the ring has a way of influencing its own fate as well, like it can put itself in situations were it will be discovered.
I asked this on your Facebook page, a video on the Barrow Wights.
I love your content, keep up the good work. 😊
Yes Barrow Wights! They were cut from the movies!
Ooh! Yes!
I attended a convention panel that discussed middle earth at the time of the lord of the rings as a post apocalypse setting, which was a really interesting way of analyzing the world and puts the behavior of the elves into a new perspective: any of them that were alive before the war of wrath or the last alliance are living in the equivalent aftermath of a nuclear war or major climate disaster and many likely have elven ptsd from seeing all that destruction and living in the ruins of their world. Could make an interesting video!
"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"
Burying the Ring or throwing it into the ocean is, effectively, "doing nothing"
Nice video, you missed one cementing point that confirms what you said. It was suggested that the Ring be sent to Valinor, an option more secure than any other means of denying it, and one that was reversible if needed. It was clearly the best option to deny the ring with certainty, though giving to to Bombadil was also explored. The Valar refused. Were denial a valid strategy they would not have done so.
The reply of the Will of the West was important for two reasons, it criticised denial as a strategem for those who had the wit to analyse the reply, and the lack of contrary advice supported those who hinted at a possible destiny at the hand of Eru Illuvatar.
Thanks for giving us yet another wonderful video.
As for a video suggestion, I've always thought it would be interesting to explore the role of time, decay and nostalgia in Tolkien's Middle Earth work. This is something we definitely see everywhere in LOTR (ruins/weapons of cities no longer exist, races whose golden era are long gone, and even a old little Bilbo who can no longer catch up with the new adventures of the time).
It might be a long shot, but maybe there's a spark of an idea there.
Congrats again!
Cause then the evil will continue on and be found one day
Great video as always 👍🏻👍🏻
Would like to see more on each Valar, especially Tulkas with the what-ifs 🤯❤️
I’d like to see the things Gandalf was doing in the 17 years between him leaving Hobbiton and returning with the full knowledge of the One Ring. Was it all just trying to find knowledge on it or were there other things he was up to?
You have a great voice for narration
Speaking of other creatures getting the ring - I know Saruman was trying to get the Fellowship to take the Gap of Rohan, but shouldn't he have been absolutely terrified of the Fellowship taking the Ring through Moria? The Balrog is, in theory, a being just as powerful as him, so the idea that the Ring could find itself in the hands of the Balrog should have shook him in his boots.
And Gandalf was, in theory, just as strong as the demon. Indeed; he died killing it.
One must remember that Gandalf was not alone... while he preferred to flee from it I think the Fellowship would of prevailed with minimal losses. Though... for a company of nine just one or two losses would be devastating and Moria was goblin territory. Best case scenario is the ring turning up in goblin hands. Worse case is the ring remaining below the earth until Suron comes for it himself.
Maybe he counted on Gandalf sacrificing himself and it would be a win win
Only if he knew it was there. Exactly what Durin's Bane actually was doesn't appear to have been common knowledge.
Based on what Tolkien wrote, it doesn't appear that anyone actually knew Durin's Bane was a Balrog until the Fellowship encountered it. Furthermore, Maia differ greatly in their overall power and abilities, just like Men, Elves, Dwarves, etc do.
@@brianpembrook9164 Gandalf told the other members of the Fellowship to flee because they stood no chance against a Balrog.
It'd be cool to see a video about the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White
Peter Jackson's film makes it pretty clear. You see, Gandalf the Grey wore grey, and Gandalf the White wore white.
@@Durwood71 Gandalf the white became more powerful. He went from struggling vs Saruman to outright breaking his mind.
@@citizencj3389 Gandalf died
Commenting solely to improve your engagement. This is better than half (probably more) content than I normally watch.
My Mom & I watched the movies together recently & she brought this uestion up a couple of times I think. I tried explaining the nature of the ring to her but, I think I'll try showing her this video.
I really liked 'the LOTR from X's perspective' series, and have always hoped you'd do one for Aragorn.
Me too! I love hearing the events playing out with respect to what a character knows or does. Such a fun way of reliving the story
What I want to see next? I've always wondered, how things like Sarumans "Bomb", or gun powder in general, were only developed at that time. Wouldn't someone have invented it already? It seems like technology stayed at First Age Levels throughout the centuries and millenia
I feel like it would eventually enter the Iron Age and then eventually they'd have some sort of submarine or something to use
another thing they mentioned in the book that I don't think you touched on in the video, by the time they get the ring to rivendell Sauron knows pretty much exactly where it is. when it's brought up at the council, it's shot down mostly just because they know that saurons spies will probably find them and snatch it back before they make it all the way to the sea, and they say specifically that that route will be heavily watched by sauron. a big reason just for taking it into Mordor is because they know sauron isn't expecting that and that route isn't being watched by him
I was always under the impression the ring was almost sentient and would always endeavour to get back to sauron bit as you explained there was no urgency
Watcher in the Water + The One Ring = Cthulhu
A point also missed is the Ring wants to be found. Even if a sea monster didn't get the Ring and use its power, the Ring would be swallowed by a fish and caught on a fish hook, or die and wash up on some shore, where some man, ,elf, dwarf or orc would come across it. Given time the Ring would find its way back to Sauron. And since the Shadow was growing, I would assume it's pull to be found would be stronger. It might sit at the bottom of the ocean for less time than it sat on the bottom of a river. Burying it runs into the same issue, some mole or other creature would bring it back to the surface in time.
I would love to have a video on The Music of the Ainur from you. What it is and how it affects (or not) events in Middle-Earth
Reading the title, my very first thought was the Watcher. Just what Middle Earth needs is some giant squid or octopus, made near immortal and corrupted over millennia, made massive and monstrous by the power of the one ring.
The mythical Kraken comes to mind, but I preferred your reference to Lovecraft - that was inspired. I think the end result might be something very much like what I imagine Cthulu must look like.
"Be God have mercy on his soul" - Jumanji
With regards to what you should make a video on next, I'm curious what happens to the souls of orcs when they die. Do their souls go to the same place Elvish souls go, the Halls of Mandos, as the orcs were originally corrupted elves? Did their corruption deny them this? Also, what about the very first orcs, who were born elves, what happened to their souls?
Also, on a completely different series, I'd love to see you do a deep dive into the lore of the original Oz books, by L. Frank Baum. There's a lot more there than most people know, as most people only have seen the movie.
I'm always curious about the lore behind the lore. This video and the one about the Watcher have me wondering what was happening in Tolkein's orbit that made him give the idea of fierce monsters from the water such pride of place? Were there contemporary scientific discoveries that influenced his writing? Was this a significant aspect of the Norse poetry that inspired his mythology? Is this a part of the worldview for folks who live in island countries? I would love to know more.
“why not do x with the ring?”
because sauron is already winning without the ring. he doesnt need it to completely rule middle earth.
you either destroy the ring or die.
A breakdown of the different monsters in the legendarium would be great
What do you want to see next?
Maybe a video on the Rohirrim? Why were there so few that answered the King's call to war?
My understanding is that the whole "so few have come" bit was film-only. In the books, Theoden sends out the call for all his forces to muster at Dunharrow right after the victory at Helm's Deep and the parley with Saruman, and it seems like he pretty much does get Rohan's entire available force assembled. The issue is that, after learning of the full scope of Sauron's attack, Theoden isn't willing to send his entire force to Minas Tirith and leave Rohan completely undefended. He says that he might have been able to send as many as 10,000 riders, but with the news of Sauron attacking on numerous fronts, he's only willing to lead 6,000 to Minas Tirith, while the rest will be sent to guard Rohan's northern and eastern borders. Any other depletion of Rohan's force at Minas Tirith compared to what they theoretically might have sent probably just comes down to the losses they'd already suffered against Saruman, and the large size of Rohan meaning some forces just couldn't get to Dunharrow in time.
I'd like to know more about Helm Hammer hand, who Helms Deep was named for.
I'd love a video on the inspirations behind Tolkien's legendarium.
It was so revolutionary in fantasy, but what other works, and what real-world mythology, did he draw from in his writing?
They should have buried it, under the ocean. On a more serious note though, consider this: Gandalf was the enemy of Sauron. Throwing the ring in the sea would mean that his task wasn't complete. He would have to stay in middle-earth and combat Sauron, maybe for a few years, maybe for millennia. Either way it was a futile prospect and a direct dereliction and abandonment of his duty. Knowing what would ultimately befall himself and middle-earth. not only was it not really feasible (as he said the way to the sea was the easiest and expected by the enemy), but not an option at all if he was to achieve his task.
On 6:40 one thing i do want to point out but the battle at the gates of Mordor likely would not have happened in this timeline. If Frodo never takes the ring to Mount Doom, then there is no need for a battle there because Sauron's eye would not need to pulled away from 2 hardworking hobbits. In fact would Aragon ever need to lead any army or retake his role as King if not for the journey of the fellowship? I do think youre right that eventually middle earth would be overrun by Sauron though