Who ordered the Assassination attempt on Tyrion?
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I actually think my favorite answer is the one Tyrion immediately throws away without really considering it -- Mandon Moore just saw an opportunity to kill Tyrion in the chaos of a battle and get away with it, because Tryion was an asshole to him and disrespected him several times... it is *very* on brand for GRRM to have a character like Tyrion get paranoid about "who ordered the hit on my life?" and spending a lot of time and mental stress trying to figure it out when the answer is... no one. Just a guy who thought Tyrion was a dick and saw a split second chance, and none of it meant anything... what matters is what Tyrion *believes* happened
And that's very on brand going back to tyrion's own words. Power lies were men believe it lies and in that moment it could have easily just been a guy with a grudge had a perfect opportunity to kill someone he didn't like
Thing is, that Tyrion was asshole to Trant or Borros too, and Moore was Littlefinger crony, not they.
I actually enjoy this one
This is good. yeah, Mandon was trying to take advantage.
@@MikolajKnasyeah, but maybe they didn't see the chance to kill him, or they just weren't as vindictive.
"When in doubt, blame Littlefinger" is becoming almost as popular as "When in doubt, blame Bloodraven"! 😆
Bloodraven might have ordered Mandon lol
Pity they never clashed....
Imagine a small counsil with bloodraven as master of whisperers and littlefinger as master of coin?
Terrible to live through a time like that, but phantastic to read about...
Almost everyone. Tyrion in the books was really good at making enemies.
Including Mandon, I would emphasize.
There are only a few who can authorize a kingsgaurd knight to attack the hand of the king aswell as family member of the royal family..so not everyone is an option
@@soulbrother1143assuming they adhere to chilvaric values. A lot of KG have been shown to have...a fairly broad idea of what is acceptable, honourable deeds. Some, like Barry are good guys but plenty are total scum like the kettleblacks
@@clownpendotfart Why chance throwing your life away for killing The Imp? Joffery and everyone else besides Jaime hates him. A thorn in the side but one that wouldn't mean much if the battle was won. I'd find it weird to waste time on petty revenge when there are thousands of people around you that trying to kill you, better to protect yourself and fight the real enemy at the time. Though humans aren't logical creatures when emotions come into play and this is a book and not real life so it's not out of the question either way. Being said, GRRM tries to keep the book close to real life (granted dragons and magic) when and where he can, unlike D&D for example
@@soulbrother1143 the series shows everyone can have agency and everyone is vulnerable to corruption. So why do you state only the royal family can command Mandon, especially at a time where Jaime has stated the Kingsguard has gone to shit?
Bloodraven it's always his fault. "When in doubt blame Bloodraven" - a very wise man.
-bloodraven
Agreed. Somehow, Bloodraven was behind it.
Maybe he was skinchanging Mandon Moore.
Bloodraven or Littlefinger, take your pick
True or not, "blame Bloodraven" is lame. I hope GRRM didn't think that. It's just too lazy IMO.
aegor would of course blame bloodraven. lol
More Littlefinger evidence: Tyrion knows LF framed him for the catspaw murder when talking to Catelyn. Then Cat kidnaps Tyrion, thus starting the war. Tyrion even says to himself in Clash that he needs to deal with LF at some point.
And when Tyrion gets back to King's Landing, he straight up says to LF "I know what you did."
LF had means (money), motive (silencing him) and opportunity (battle) to silence Tyrion. And failed.
Tyrion had all the elements to connect the dots and work out who's pulling the strings behind the Lannister/Stark feud. Even Varys warned him.
And he did nothing with it.
That's also why I believe Joffrey's death was a hit on Tyrion, that missed spectacularly.
@@PipoZePoulpI'd say maybe on that joffery one, but little finger knew everything that happened even though he wasn't the poisoner. He very clearly implicates the queen of thorns. The QoT has no reason to kill tyrion. Margery and her wanted joffery dead after they saw how Sansa acted at the dinner party.
Yea he says that in the video…
"I did"
- Alliser Thorne
Plot twist - Tyrion hired a hit on himself but was supposed to be a joke when he was drunk
@@ModMax69 indeed, this is proven by ser Mandon Moore's last words: "Chill bro, it's a prank"
lel
"For the crabs!"
lmao
Mandon Moore knew Ser Vardis Egen well, and the latter died in a Trial by Combat that benefited Tyrion. I could see him attempting to kill Tyrion for Ser Vardis’s death.
Best reason I’ve heard. 👍🏾
Not even mentioned in the books. What is mentioned is that cersei was the prime suspect, especially after how tyrion threatened her to hurt her son the same way they would hurt his whore (which wasn't the right one)
Time Travelling Tyrion from the Future did, Tyrion losing his nose is the crossroads that all timelines are based on: fully losing his nose leads to the Song of Ice and Fire book Timeline, only getting a scar leads to season 8, and Tyrion’s nose being fine leads to the cursed draft timeline where Tyrion ends up in a love triangle with Jon Snow over Arya, and Tyrion was willing to sacrifice his flesh and blood to prevent that horror from being unleashed on us.
amazing
Still more thought out than the Legend of Zelda timeline split
It is explained in the Pre-released Winds of Winter that Tyrion showed Ser Mandon his penis when he was drunk and Mandon was very jealous. I got to read a few chapters of Winds of Winter in Japan last summer.
@@ModMax69Tripod?
Preston is that you in disguise?
It was Sir Pounce
Don't be stupid.
If Ser Pounce wanted him dead, he'd be dead, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
No, he's the GOOD cat. It was the "bad cat".
You’re half right. It was Sir Pounce……..‘s body. He was being warged
What a bad puzzy!
Ser Pounce would've done the job himself and wouldn't have failed.
That “future book” at the end set me rolling on the floor. Laughing 🤣
It was clearly Littlefinger. The following reasons:
1) Joffrey and Cersei needed Tyrion alive to lead the battle. They would have also used someone like Ser Meryn or Osmund Kettleblack to kill Tyrion.
2) In Cersei’s POV chapters, while she is completely obsessed with Tyrion, she never thinks about Ser Meryn failing to kill him.
3) Varys needs Tyrion alive for his Aegon plot and very much hates Stannis, where we can rule him out.
4) Pycelle was in the dungeons and as much as he hates Tyrion, he wouldn’t dare kill Tywin’s son.
5) I don’t think Tywin would have Tyrion killed here nor do I see how he would have pulled it off.
Now for Littlefinger:
1) Tyrion knows LF framed him for the dagger, and if Tyrion ever tells Tywin this, he will have him hung so he needs Tyrion dead.
2) Tyrion lets off a barb where he unknowingly implies that he knows Lysa killed Jon Arryn, and thus implicating LF. LF would think Tyrion was directly threatening him, doubling down on the need for Tyrion’s death.
3) Ser Mandon comes from the Vale and seems to have no connection to anyone, which is suspicious why he was appointed in the first place. The most likely reason was LF whispering into Lysa’s ear and getting Ser Mandon on the Kingsguard.
LF wanted Stannis to lose the battle, he has opposed him since the first book and the alliance he arranged with the Tyrells ensured Lannister victory. Varys does not need Tyrion for his other plot, Tyrion only got sent to Essos after he was framed for killing Joffrey by LF & the QoT. LF being away means he doesn't know Tyrion is going to be replacing Sandor to lead a vanguard of men in battle. And GRRM has said that Robert had a lot of replacements to make on the KG when he became king, even while LF had not yet come to KL (he was in charge of customs at Gulltown first). Merely fighting competently (something nobody denies of him) on the side of his lord Jon Arryn during Robert's Rebellion could have sufficed to get him a spot. It's not like Robert is referred to as liking the other guys who joined the KG after he became king.
@@clownpendotfartWhy does everyone believe it was LF and Olenna who plotted the Purple wedding? Just because LF claims so a few chapters later, in a sudden burst of honesty to a teenage girl of unknown loyalty? Of course, I believed the same until I came over an explanation much more compelling that it was Cersei who ordered the poisoning and it was Tyrion she aimed at. Only the poisoned grain wasn't in wine, but rather in the hot pigeon pie, where the servant put a spoon of lemon sauce over it, remember? Cersei didn't anticipate Joffrey to jam his fingers into Tyrion's pie and eat it. But later in her chapters she blames Tyrion all the same because she always blames her victims. Tyrion was guilty because he didn't die as she planned. As for the motive she's been obsessed with the valonkar prophecy for decades. On the other hand, LF and Olenna could have come up with a much, much safer plan to murder Joffrey. All the other details match as well.
@@pushista9322 The WOIAF app (which GRRM signed off on) confirmed it was the wine which was poisoned. GRRM has talked about it after the TV episode (which he wrote) aired. He said the intent was to make it look like an accident, and what prevented that was Cersei accusing Tyrion. Just as with Mandon's attempt to kill Tyrion, none of Cersei's POV chapters indicate she failed to kill him before. Finally, how did LF know that Olenna took a stone out of Sansa's hairnet if he hadn't arranged that with her in advance?
My understanding is that GRRM didn't come up with the valonqar prophecy until quite a while after writing ASOS, and even a decent way into AFFC.
"4) Pycelle was in the dungeons and as much as he hates Tyrion, he wouldn’t dare kill Tywin’s son."
Unless he thought that by doing so he would curry favour with Tywin, knowing how much Tywin hates his dwarf son. Pycelle helped cover up Jon Arryn's murder for similar reasons, and persuaded Aerys to open his gates to the Lannisters, so is there any low he won't stoop to?
@@jamesgravil9162 He didn't kill Jon Arryn, he assumed Cersei had poisoned him and ended the purging that might have cleansed such poison. And how was he going to "curry favor" by somehow ordering an assassination from the dungeon? Tywin would neither believe he could have accomplished it, nor give any credit considering he attacked the Riverlands for Catelyn abducting Tyrion. Tywin is the one who made Tyrion acting Hand and told him to put Pycelle's head on a spike if he was responsible for any of Joffrey's early mistakes. Convincing Tywin you assassinated his designated proxy during a battle when said proxy was leading forces in defense of the Lannister regime sounds like a sure-fire way to get your head on a spike.
Ding Ding Ding we have a winner... oh course it was Littlefinger. Everything King Joffrey does is because Littlefinger advises Joffrey behind the scenes. Sending the Catspaw dagger - Littlefinger - Pointing the finger at Tyrion - Littlefinger - Executing Ned Stark - Littlefinger - Executing King Robert's bastards - Littlefinger
Yes!
The only thing I don't think LF might be a part of was the poisoning. I think it was the Tyrells. I wouldn't be surprised if it was LF though.
Robert Bartheron's bastards were Cerise's Idea she waented them dead!
Robert Arryn held a grudge he didn't get to see the little man fly
with a stream of diarrhea spraying out as he flew away
“The prince will remember that little lord”. - Sandor “the hound” Clegane
Sandor "no half measures" Clegane
Joffery was scared sh!tless though, I think he would wait. Plus Joffery seems the sort to prefer tormenting to actual killing if the person doesn't threaten his crown.
@@Seven_Leaf *Jeffrey being excited and happy
"Killed a few puppies, have you?"
Lmao
I think it's deliberate that we never find out who was responsible for the attempted assassination of Tyrion. I believe the whole thing is meant to emphasize to us, the readers, just how many enemies Tyrion has made and how dangerous King's Landing is even for a Lannister. It's a catalyst for further paranoia in the plot, a key moment to lay the path for the extremely dark place Tyrion enters later in the series, and to give a definitive answer to how was responsible would undo that. Not everything needs an answer. There's a lot in A Song of Ice and Fire that we genuinely do need answers for, stuff that the show ignored to severe detriment to the plot, but this is not one of those things.
I’ve always liked the idea that there was no hit and it was just Mandon Moore seizing an opportunity to kill someone he disliked.
I read the bit about him being dangerous as him being unpredictable on top of hiding his emotions and motives.
We hear he apparently knew Vardis Egen, so maybe on top of the slights against him on Tyrions part, he in a way was avenging someone he may of considered one of his only friends?
I wouldn’t put it past George to attempt to make the reader agree with Tyrion that there’s a grand conspiracy against him, when in reality the simplest answer is the correct one.
His characters are written fairly realistic and I think if we were in Tyrion’s shoes for this we’d all also assume one of our many enemies we had made ordered it. Paranoia is a slippery slope after all, especially when the stuff you’re paranoid about is plausible.
I'd also point out Littlefinger's other motive for killing Tyrion- Tyrion told Littlefinger that he knew who killed Jon Arryn and threatened to expose the person. I'd say that was actually the biggest reason LF put a hit on him. And on an adjacent note, I've always wondered if Ser Mandon's true reason for abandoning Sansa during the riot was because he'd been instructed to do so by Littlefinger so Sansa was alone/able to be taken by a Dontos-like operative and smuggled out of the city and into LF's custody (protecting Joffrey was the perfect cover to create an opening for the abduction). Only surprise, The Hound unknowingly thwarted the plot by cutting the man's arm off as he tried to pull Sansa from her horse. Anyway, nice video!
The most likely outcome of abandoning Sansa is that she would have just died. A riot is not an easily controlled event.
@@clownpendotfart Never said it was. In my opinion, the only individuals Littlefinger controlled were the person who threw the poop to start the riot, Ser Mandon, and whoever the catspaw was he'd hired to kidnap Sansa. That's it. It's exactly like the purple wedding, where he controlled the server who poisoned the pie and Ser Dontos.
@@ashleyofnaath The one person at the Purple Wedding we know was working for LF was Dontos, who was already in communication with Sansa about escaping. That also wasn't a riot, so Sansa could slip away while attention was focused on Joffrey.
Almost! The REAL intent for abandoning Sansa was so that she would be r*p*d. Just like Lollys. Making both girls VERY available to "lower" marriages even though both stand to inherit A LOT. Lollys wasn't killed-she should have been. Sansa wasn't going to be killed, either. Just hurt really badly. The men who take her have garlic on their breath, etc. They were fed. They had been paid, is the implication. Again...that MIGHT have been LF. But ONLY with Joff's full approval/knowledge. Mandon is NOT leaving Sansa behind without an OK from Joff. LF might not be behind the Riots, that's a whole other video, likely-but he IS behind what happens to Lollys and almost to Sansa. And if Tyrek didn't just nope out on his own, LF is likely behind that as well. Tyrek's wife is baby and stands to inherit a lot as well. And there is the lil point that Tyrek was part of Roberts hunting party...whole other video, again lol
Awesome theory 👍 I never thought about that. Littlefinger is my favorite character in ASOIAF!
I just don't think it's Joffrey's style. Joffrey would have had Tyrion publicly humiliated, then executed.
Joff likes to play with his food
Yes, the most public humiliation possible. I think that’s the main attraction for him, the purple wedding before its abrupt ending is a perfect example.
I think the question of style is absolutely worth looking at here, and I think it narrows things down a lot even if it is circumstantial.
Joffrey isn't beyond a knife-in-the-back murder: I think it's a safe bet that Joffrey arranged the attempt on young Bran Stark, but it's worth noting here that this was before Joffrey was king, and Littlefinger almost certainly put the idea into Joffrey's imagination, and pulled all the strings necessary to get the job done including obtaining the dagger, hiring the assassin, etc. And furthermore, Joffrey seems to have only grown more vicious, sadistic, and bold in his mischief upon gaining the throne: he likes his victims by that point to know who is controlling their pain and suffering and destruction, and he likes an opportunity to gloat. And, I think it's notable here that Bran really has no direct reason to attract Joffrey's sadism: no, Joffrey's impotent rage was toward other Starks, so ending Bran would have mostly served the point of making the other Starks suffer, which IS Joffrey's style, I think: no, it doesn't really seem to be Joffrey's style to just have an assassin quietly knock Tyrion off the board.
I think that style also rules out Cersei: Cersei is also quite vicious when it comes to personal vendettas, and she certainly had a personal vendetta against Tyrion... compare the attempt on Tyrion to what happened to Prince Oberyn, the Sparrows' superior nun who tormented her in prison at the hands of Zombie Mountain, or to what happened to Queen Margaery and the entire sept and a good portion of King's Landing! Cersei's revenge tends to run toward the cruel and dramatic and reckless, and she likes to watch and to get her own hands on the revenge when she can, as we can see with Prince Oberyn's little story about Cersei pinching baby Tyrion in a very sensitive place out of spite for "killing" her mother in childbirth... I don't think that a quiet, efficient, safe assassination attempt on Tyrion in the heat of battle quite sounds like Cersei's style any more than it sounds like Joffrey's.
That still leaves a few options, but Littlefinger seems the most likely:
- Littlefinger (it does seem to be his style, Littlefinger's revenge seems to take the form of the chaos he creates, and the satisfaction of outsmarting his rivals and adversaries)
- Ser Mandon (I think a fair case has been made for the would-be assassin himself having the motive to end Tyrion for a handful of reasons, though we can only guess if it fits his style or not to act on his own in this particular way)
- Varys (I don't think it's Varys; Varys is a practical and pragmatic man, but I suspect his style tends more toward poison, and I don't think Tyrion would have had as much a chance to walk away alive....)
- Grand Maester Pycelle (I don't think he did it, I don't think he had the opportunity, and I don't think he had the power or courage to try acting against even an unpopular member of the royal family, but he does seem to have been another practical and pragmatic man, and might well have been capable of pulling the strings to make this sort of attempt happen; it's a bit reckless and unplanned for what I'd expect from what we know of him, but I do think he would find it distasteful to try to have his enemies killed and would want it done as efficiently and quickly and quietly as he could....)
No, at the end of the day Littlefinger just feels right - the attempt on young Bran sets a precedent for Littlefinger to bump off his enemies via hired thug, we know Littlefinger had reasons to want Tyrion's mouth shut forever thanks to Tyrion tipping his hand about knowing that Littlefinger was behind a lot of dangerous mischief, and I think the circumstantial evidence is convincing enough that Ser Mandon was one of Littlefinger's cat's-paws already, thanks to the hints that John Arryn wasn't happy with him, with the logical conclusion that Mandon was appointed under Lysa Arryn's insistence via Littlefinger's influence.
Mandon acting alone doesn't seem impossible - just a bit "boring", serving really only to show that Tyrion was making lots of random enemies and was overthinking the implications and seeing conspiracies against him while overlooking the obvious, Tyrion himself thinks of Mandon but dismisses him almost immediately as too simple, and it might well fit Tyrion's personality as we see it in the TV show at least for Tyrion to overthink something like that. I can't rule it out, but Littlefinger just seems to fit the best....
@@pietrayday9915 Brilliant analysis. Here are a few of my own thoughts after reading it:
1. Cersei: Correct me if I'm wrong but what you presented as examples for Cersei's style are only things presented in the show. I do think it would fit Cersei's style. Having Tyrion at the front, hoping he would die in battle. And if he was about to win and come out alive, having someone to "help" Tyrion meet the desired end. Still I think there are more likely candidates.
2. Varys: I don't think he has a motive. It also doesn't fit the fact, that he helps Tyrion escape from his execution.
3. Grand Maester Pycelle: Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he is still in a black cell when the battle for King's Landing takes place. I don't see how he could have arranged for something from there.
4. Littlefinger: My money is also on Littlefinger. It just fits so well. Try to have someone killed to sow mistrust, later nurture this mistrust into all out fighting. Jon Arryn, maybe Bran, Ned Stark indirectly, Lysa Arryn.... If Tyrion had been killed, the Lennisters would have lost their heir. Jaime couldn't inherit, he was in the King's Guard. Whoever married Cersei could maybe have inherited Casterly Rock. And even after it failed, it created a lot of disunity and mistrust among the Lennisters
While Joffrey would probably have preferred to toy with Tyrion, he has shown that he is indeed stupid enough to have Tyrion killed during the battle. Both in the TV show and in the books. While LF does appear to be the most likely person, the timing of the attack leaves much to be desired. LF tends to be more methodical in his planning. Killing the linchpin of the city's defense while the matter has yet to be decided strikes me as sloppy and stupid. Circle back to Joffrey.
I'm of the Mandon Moore acted alone camp on this one. I think in the first second he sees the uncle of his leige lord fall, reaches out for him-
and in that second remembers the undermining, the insults, slapping his king across the face in front of members of court while sitting the iron throne and decided; "fuck it, let's be rid of the imp. No one will be the wiser, and if they suspect they won't care." And so, quickly, he withdrew his hand of help and brought his weapon hand down instead.
He wouldn’t have reached with his off hand, risking getting them both killed, if he intended to save Tyrion. He would have reached with his sword hand and stabilized himself with his off hand. That being said, I do think he acted alone as well. Just that he had decided before he reached down.
@@Pacemaker_fgcI think he acted alone, but was sure one of the 3 suspects will show him gratitude after.
Varys. For the same reason that he killed Kevin Lannister - Tyrion was good at his job. As Acting Hand he was successfully securing the Lannister hold on the Iron Throne. But that would not have been to Varys' liking. He planned for Griff, Faegon and the Golden Company to take the throne.
It would have been easy enough for him to arrange, he was in the city at the time, and just prior to the battle he could have slipped up to Ser Mandon and said 'Your King has ordered that his Uncle die in the battle tonight, but you must do this in utmost secrecy so that no blame can be attached to Joffrey'.
And Ser Mandon would nod, and go and carry out what he thinks are his orders.
Notice when Tyrion demands that Varys find proof of who ordered his assassination, and the Master of Whispers tells him
'There is none.'
How convenient, that Varys, who seems to hear every rumour in the Red Keep has no knowledge of this one. (Unless he did it, and wants to throw Tyrion off the scent).
Yes, I know that Varys appeared to be on Tyron's side, but The Mad King, Robert Baratheon, Joffery, Tywin (and Dany in the TV show) all think that Varys was working for them, but all the time he has been working to put Faegon and the Blackfyres on the throne.
I came to ask if it could be Varys - it always seems to be him or Littlefinger! It's been too long since I've read the books so I appreciate your analysis here.
You forgot frees Sansa to marry Aegon uniting North and South.
I do believe littlefinger would a kings guard in his pocket. Would only make sense in terms of knowledge and protection!
Except they all are either in somebody else's pocket, one being in Dorne, and the last two being honorable men doesn't seem likely
"The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him." LF to Sansa, A Storm of Swords, Sansa VI
@@clownpendotfart Littlefinger can only think that "Osmund has become especially unreliable" after trying to use him. Such a statement proves he has been at least trying to use kingsguards before.
Cersei. She considered the murder of anyone she disliked to be a pleasure due to her, and it made her feel powerful. Other than Joffrey, who would Moore imagine had the power to protect him if he did such a thing? Who else would choose annihilating someone so valuable, without whose help the whole Lannister regime would have crumbled?
She's also abundantly STUPID, and never more than when she's indulging her petty grudges (against whoever she thinks might be her rival) and fondly imagining herself "proving" she's just like her father. The scene in AFFC where she congratulates herself for making Margaery Tyrell cry, comparing it to some Tywin-like triumph, is absolutely hilarious. YOU MADE A TEENAGE GIRL CRY, what a conqueror!
The abundance of Cersei pov chapters where she never thinks about the issue pretty much eliminates her as a suspect. Not impossible, but highly improbable.
That would seem likely if she wasn't as puzzled but disappointed in the attempted assassination. She's more the poison type when it actually comes to personally killing anyone.
In a clash of kings in a Sansa chapter during the battle, Cersei hears that Tyrion goes out into battle leading a sorty and hasn't returned. Her reaction was interesting... almost like she knew for a certainty he was dead at Mandons blade.
@@KingSlayer_. I think it's more likely to assume that she just thought that there was no chance that Tyrion could survive the battle in the first place, especially since they were very much losing until Tywin showed up.
It's not strong evidence on its own, but when we consider other examples of Cersei actually killing her enemies off, it really seems doubtful to me that she'd choose to take out her very personal and furious vendetta against Tyrion through a quiet, efficient, practical stab in the back from a hired thug. Consider:
- Cersei insisting on putting Sansa's dire wolf, Lady, to death to send a message to Sansa and the other Starks: this is one of the first instances where we see Cersei inflicting her spite on her enemies in revenge for real or imagined slights against her and her children.
- Cersei turning the Zombie Mountain loose on the helpless nun who had tormented Cersei in prison: Cersei really seems to enjoy the satisfaction of seeing fear in her victims' eyes when she sends her message to them!
- Cersei's fury at Jaime for giving Lady Olenna Tyrell poison for a quick and dignified death after engineering Joffrey's death, instead of turning Olenna over to Cersei for revenge: Cersei doesn't seem to like letting her victims die easily when she wants revenge!
- Cersei's explosive solution to the problem of the Sparrows, the Sept, and Queen Margaery: Cersei watched it from afar, as demanded by the dangerous nature of that revenge, but the spiteful, reckless, destructive, and highly dramatic style of the explosion really seems to fit Cersei's style here. (And remember: the Sparrows were only a problem for her to begin with because they were a spiteful, reckless, destructive, and highly dramatic attack on her enemies!)
- Even as a child, Oberyn related a tale of Cersei showing off the infant Tyrion to satisfy his curiosity, and viciously pinching Tyrion in a very vulnerable place to make him cry, out of spite for "killing" Cersei's mother in childbirth: Cersei even seems to like getting her hands on her victims, especially Tyrion, to inflict suffering on them, something that hiring a cat's-paw to quietly and efficiently murder him in battle with a stab in the back really doesn't allow for her.
- There's also Cersei gloating at Tyrion after finding a girl she thought was Tyrion's girlfriend and hauling her away to apparently be tortured: this again shows that Cersei's revenge tends toward the cruel, including inflicting suffering on her victims by targeting their loved ones, and sending a message about what she's doing and why in conditions where the victim has no doubt at all about what is happening to them, who caused it, and why.
No, I think that every hint we get about Cersei's personality suggests that her revenge on Tyrion would have been far more likely to have taken some dramatic, vicious, cruel, reckless, and stupid form, in controlled conditions where Cersei could be present to drive home a message in person, hands-on, with a speech if possible, or at least where she could watch from a safe distance if she can't safely be there to "rub it in" personally.
The attempt on Tyrion's life just doesn't seem to me to fit Cersei's style at all!
It doesn't seem to fit Joffrey's style, either - we have seen examples of Joffrey's mischief, and it seems to take an even more cruel and senseless form of cruelty for its own sake, inflicted boldly and publicly as a public reminder of who is king (and a king who has to tell people he is the king is no true king, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Joffrey was any true king, or anything more than an impotent, cowardly, sadistic tyrant who enjoyed the pleasure of making weak things cry more than he enjoyed the responsibilities of being a ruler.....)
With style in mind on top of motive/opportunity/intent, there aren't too many options left to point to - Littlefinger, or a lone-gunman Mandon would seem to be two of the most likely, with Mandon acting alone being the less interesting and less easily supported option. My money is thus on Littlefinger: Littlefinger had the influence via Lysa Arryn to put Mandon on the game board back in John Arryn's day (and John didn't seem happy about it), Littlefinger was almost certainly behind the other major cat's-paw assassination attempt in the story (on Bran Stark, apparently via a younger prince Joffrey before he could act out his sadism more openly,), and Littlefinger certainly had some motives after Tyrion tipped his hand to Littlefinger about knowing that Littlefinger was connected to just about all of the most dangerous sheanigans in the story up to that point, with Littlefinger also motivated to murder the hypotenuse in the Tyrion-Sansa-Littlefinger triangle while creating more chaos to climb thanks to the political expedience of freeing Joffrey from Tyrion's restraint and influence, what little there was of it.
I'm open to other cases and evidence, but the case against Littlefinger seems the strongest so far!
Great vid IDG & HoW. This has always been an intriguing question to try and figure out. Tyrion not short of enemies / rivals and those with the desire to take him out. Though i did always lean towards Littlefinger myself. We know Baelish has the motivation and means and very willing to conspire to murder. LF loves and thrives in the chaos such a death (Tyrion's death) would result in and we know he already tried to frame Tyrion. Littlefinger surely views Tyrion as an obstacle and likely even more threatened as an intellectual rival who is quite highly placed (even if Tyrion not many true allies and friends around him). I did not really think of Sansa but good point and if anyone would predict and strategize where the Lannisters would go next in that situation Littlefinger would be one if not numerous steps ahead. Also, didn't think about Mandon Moore possible connections to Baelish (a fellow Valemen) that potentially dates back quite a while , which also could lead further credence here.
When you look at the means , motivation ,and willingness on Littlefinger's end ; ntm a rivalry already fully fledged between them and been making moves against each other. Tyrion certainly an obstacle for Baelish and TL one of a select few Littlefinger would view as a formidable intellectual rival as well. Certainly a few candidates but Littlefinger does seem the very likely culprit here.
LF's lackeys are always lowly grubbers like Dontos. Once a Kettleblack got raised up to the KG he ceased to be LF's man.
Not sure what camp I'm in but to help you with your case. LF is one of few that did not worry about how many Lannister loyalist dies in the battle. He knows about Highgarden joining the fight and that Stannis will loose inside the city if he ever gets that far. + He wasnt inside so his life was never in danger.
Worse case for KL, is best for him Stannis removes Tyrion, Cercei, Joffery before he gets moved away himself by Tywin and Tyrells.
Imagen being one of 2 puppetmasters to Tommen betwin LF and Margery 🤷
Well done IDG, I enjoyed it. Thank you.
I just want to say that for years and years I was obsessed with becoming a fantasy author, built numerous worlds with countless stories and then fell out of it. Your channel has reignited my passion for fantasy, and because of your videos I just recently finished the world map for my fantasy realm.
I appreciate your in depth, passionate, and widely varied perspectives on fantasy.
Time travelling Bran warged into Ser Mandon because he knew Tyrion needed to lose his nose for the Others to be defeated
I'm only now thinking, it strikes me as slightly weird that Varys was not trying to kill Tyrion at this stage.
He was doing a pretty good job at governing the city in the worst possible time.
Perhaps knowing that Tywin was on his way my way - meant that it didn't really matter if Tyrion died or not, but I still think it weird that Tyrion did not get some sort of a Kevan treatment.
I'll think about it more, but perhaps you are right with all the fingers pointing to the little one
Varys wanted Stannis to lose. Stannis intends to cleanse the court of people like both Varys & LF.
Could it be a "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest" situation? Maybe Joffrey complained a couple of times and wished his uncle was dead, and he just took a chance during a heated battle where he could get Tyrion out of the way without much fuss?
Dang man just clicks on this video, it is the first one of yours in a while that I have watched, and that voice is soooooo smooth
Wonderful video. I agree with you 100%. If is not related to magic, all roads lead to Littlefinger or Varys in this story.
Loved this video so much. Mainly because I was of the mind that circi was the culprit, but that might’ve been just me wanting to fill in the blanks with what made sense rather than what added up.
Your videos are my favorite thing about CZcams.
Plot twist: it was Tomen, for sending his sister off to Dorn. lol
Anything bad happens in Westeros:
Me, watching Games of thrones: "Cersie - it was Cersie"
Me, now that I have watched theory videos referencing the books: "Littlefinger or Varys, it was a game of two players all along!"
I reckon it could have been either Mord or Hodor.
I just realized that if they dated, their couple name would be Mordor.
is beans
@@benc.5558😂😂
@@benc.5558'Mord ' is German for 'murder'. No need for Hodor here.
It was Syrio Forel wearing Mandon Moore's face.
Sent by time traveling Arya with Bran's power
I think the Maesters need to be considered a possible suspect given their ancient rivalry with the Alchemists's Guild. They cannot have been happy to see wildfire used by the Lannisters.
Love the videos. Would love to hear from you about Illyrio as a character
I like the theory that it was little finger...Anyway can't wait to watch this when I get a chance
I thought it was jofree but your Littlefinger explanation makes more sense... You are the GOAT❤
Gotta be Littlefinger. He's like 5-6th on the list of people who benefit. He always kills people when he's that low on the list
That's a very good point
If Joffrey did not order the hit on Tyrion-he gave his permission, at the least. To me, it reads like we are supposed to make the connect not just for this-but for King's Guard in general. It's also a clue as to why the KG was at the ToJ with Lyanna-and who those KG were-The White Bull being MOST like Mandon Moore in that he does not waver in his duty to the King, for any reason. What The White Bull says to Jaimie regarding Aerys just adds to it all.
Maybe it was like the jousting dwarves at the Purple Wedding: LF's idea, but he hinted until Joffrey thought it was his own and gave the actual order. "What a tragedy if something were to happen to Your Grace's uncle in battle. He has made so many enemies, does Your Grace never fear for his safety? Even the noble kingsguard might be tempted to do him harm should an opportunity arise."
@benc.5558 Yes-but the thing is... I'm not sure it MATTERS who did it. It does not altar the storylines. ALL lines are cut since Mandon dies. And Joff. It is clear LF wanted Tyrion dead at one point, but once he has Sansa and she becomes Alayne, LF forgets about Tyrion. At least for now, while doing his thing in the Vale. LF does not have plans on revealing Sansa anytime soon. If he does at all. It could have been ANYONE sent to kill Tyrion. If ANYONE else had been sent to kill Tyrion, even after being killed by Pod-knowing who ordered the hit would still alter/effect the storylines to come. I mean, will Tyrion suddenly realize he loves his sister..or even hate her less, if he KNEW who asked Joff/Mandon to kill him? Would it change how deals with/thinks about LF? The fact that it is a KG matters to the reader/storyline only in that it tells us MORE about the KG's and Tyrion's mindset. I really could be wrong, sorry-this is just how it reads to me all together. The KG ONLY obey their King, technically. Mandon IS a hardcore KG's. Not all of them are-looking at Loras, etc. Mandon is what a KG who is ACTUALLY living as a KG looks like. They WILL do hits, even for other people, IF the King allows it. It prolly WAS LF-but it could have been Moon-Boy, for all we know. No matter WHO, Joff knew. He approved the Hit, so for all intent-Joff ordered it, no matter who was asking, when it comes to involving KG. I feel like THAT is the clue-the purpose of it being Mandon. I could prolly say this better lol
Yes, I agree! Interesting stuff ;)
Peter Dinklage was so perfect at playing Tyrion
for the first 5 seasons
@@ModMax69it's not his fault though. His acting was still great, the dialogue was terrible
Tyrion wasn’t actually overly angyry about the alayaya thing. He just wanted Cersei to think that she had found the right girl
I remember a theory that it was Pycelle, but I agree that Littlefinger is the most likely
Hotpie did it.
Ser Mandon Moore is known to love baked goods. I can see it.
I hadn't realised that scene was only in the series (the conversation between Tyrion and Cersei), even I've read the books many times. Must be the Mandela effect in action. It seems most likely Baelish is the culprit. It's not often someone changes my mind about ASOIAF. Well done robbert!
Even though*
Yes isn't that weird? I've read the books at least 4 times and watched the show only once or twice for some seasons, but I still remember details from the show as true, sometimes.
I don’t recall in the story but I remember him confronting cerci and she denies and he believes her as he can tell if she’s lying and he mentions that little monster always had it for me referring to Joffrey
"although it's the kind of thing Joffrey would do, surely even he wouldn't order the death of the person in charge of defending King's Landing while it was actually under attack", I think he absolutely would, he's so petty, spoiled, and short-sighted, that he would definitely be capable of ordering Tyrion's assassination and just assume he could screech "I AM THE KING" and throw enough peasant bodies into the grinder that somehow everything would work out for him. But I also think Littlefinger is the far more likely culprit.
I think it’s little finger, he was also behind the poisoning at the purple wedding that was meant for tyrion
The Show is long over. So now all important threads and questions have been wrapped up to our complete satisfaction. Aren’t we lucky…
The speculation is a lot of fun. But I can tell you what my FAVORITE theory is
Ser Mandon Moore and Ser Vardis Egen were gay and they were lovers in the vale. Here’s a Quote from a clash of kings:
“Ser Mandon, you have not met my companions. This is Timett son of Timett, a red hand of the Burned Men. And this is Bronn. Perchance you recall Ser Vardis Egen, who was captain of Lord Arryn's household guard?"
"I know the man." Ser Mandon's eyes were pale grey, oddly flat and lifeless.
"Knew," Bronn corrected with a thin smile.
Ser Mandon did not deign to show that he had heard that.”
Nobody hired Ser Mandon, he was just pissed off at Tyrion that one of his goons killed his lover, so he tried to hack his face in two
yes spot on
I don't think Geoffry was smart enough to orchestrate Tyrion's murder in that situation. He seemed way too flustered to be able to think about anything let alone put a scheme in motion.
I think Littlefinger makes a lot of sense. The hit is just the kind of thing he would set in motion to cause the chaos needed to further his goals. Very easy to do with the right amount of money. We've seen that the Kingsguard are not above taking bribes. Even easier if Sir Mandon does indeed owe Littlefinger for getting him onto the Kingsguard. Baelish is the Darth Sidious of ASOIF and watching his scheming play out is really interesting and fun. Always wondering what he'll do next.
man i miss asoiaf
I don't really have a option on who ordered Tyrion's death. But you do have a very good point about little finger being to blame
It was Joffrey. Bad paraphrase coming "kiss my sword Sansa, my uncle will feel it's wrath" is actually the mad king not focusing on n what is important (Stannis of course) and focusing on a short term revenge goal on Tyrion.
I think it was Littlefinger. He was laying the seeds for Joffrey’s execution
Joffrey is definitely stupid enough to order his uncles death, even in the heat of battle.
I remember when I used to be fascinated by ASOIAF lore. It's so hard to care anymore now that it's clear the series will never be finished. I guess some people are still into this, but the Tolkien stuff on this channel is so much more beautiful and interesting to me. YMMV.
I’m pretty sure that was Littlefingers design
He tried to frame Tyrion for that attempt on Brans life which means he had a reason to get rid of Tyrion
And Tyrion even let him know he suspected Petyr putting an even bigger bullseye on his own back
If we also believe the theory that poison that killed Joffrey was meant for Tyrion I think this makes it even more likely the attack was organized by Littlefinger
I guess he understood that Tyrion will always be a very big menace to him because he was too smart to fool with empty promises and too rich to bribe
Without Tyrion in the picture Littlefinger could do all kinds of stunts around the Lannisters like they are deaf dumb and blind
Most definitely Littlefinger. To add to your deduction,he's also able to put one of his crony in the Kingsguard,Kettleblack,so it is not beyond reason to suggest he have influence over the organization and able to told Moore to assassinate Tyrion.
Love these murder mysteries keep up the good work.
Littlefinger, of course
I always thought Moore did it for his own reasons: he was always loyal to the king, because that was his duty, but Stannis' attack was clearly going to win the day until the Tyrells showed up even with the bridge of ships collapsing. If/when Stannis took the city and started executing Lannister loyalists Moore could've offered up the fact that he killed Tyrion similarly to how Tywin did Rhaegar's children. If/when Stannis was rebuffed and the Lannisters carried the day he could claim Tyrion died to Stannis' men in the heat of battle. Now we know Stannis wouldn't have showered glory on Moore for his deed, but if Moore escaped with his head vs execution - he might've taken the chance.
It was Pod
He wanted to make himself look good and arranged it
He is also gonna be the nights king
Just like with the dwarves, I assume that Littlefinger showed Joffrey what could be done. Perhaps he even listed all of Moore’s qualities and the opportunities that could present themselves.
Littlefinger tried to kill Tyrion three times: first by framing Tyrion with the catspaw's dagger, second by this straightforward attempt, and thirdly by framing Tyrion for the murder of Joffrey.
I don’t think he tried to frame him for the murder, I think the murder was meant for him, Joffrey was just the idiot who stole tyrions pie
My theory has always been that the only person who didn’t try and pay off Mandon was Varys. Even Bloodraven might’ve controlled Mandon.
I agree with the theory that it was Littlefinger. There were hints that he believed Tyrion might be on to some of his shenanigans in King’s Landing. And he was not very pleased with how Tyrion used him in the scheme with Myrcella.
You should totally make videos on Wheel of Time
It was Petyr! Dragon Demands dropped this intel off the cuff many moons ago. Really appreciate how this video lays it all out Sherlock style though.
"Revealed in a future book"!
Actually it was likely Joff, and yes he would do it during the defense of the city, because Tyrion, among others, tried to get him to be safe, or at least safer, and Joff is just that petty!
I've always thought that it must've been Tywin. He stands the most to gain if Tyrion doesn't live through the battle
only a few but everyone by the end of the forth or thridbooks
Clearly it was an Jaqan Hagar immitating Syrio Forel who orchestrated the whole thing, he wanted to collect Tyrion's face...he didn't realize Manderly would be so angry at Tyrion's insults that he cut at his face in spite of explicit instructions not to
he wanted to collect Tryrion's weenus
BUT, who issued the orders? It could be only one man: Ser Pounce.....
When I read the book there was no question in my mind why this happened
though i guess it was never explained
I am okay with never getting a definitive answer for this. It kinda emphasizes the point that Tyrion makes a TON of enemies, it could've been any one of them
"Nobody ever suspects the butterfly."
Tywin is who I think ordered the attempt. He didn’t visit or even check Tyrion just simply removed his things from the tower, keeping his sons items that he wanted. Tywin also would have benefited on Tyrion’s successes having appointed him while avoiding the new enemies Tyrion created. While gaining a change in his sons reputation as he would have been heroic not drunk down at the brothel.
Honestly, as shitty a father as Tywin may be, Tyrion's death didn't bring him any benefit. And I don't believe Tywin would assassinate for hate alone, especially not his son.
I always assumed it was Cersei since she (like many) failed to realise Tyrion's instrumental role in the defence of the city. I also got the impression she had more irons in the fire in regards to making KL officials her "pets." I was thinking Moore was an minor 'project' of hers. Beautiful rich goddess offers you some land and money (two things most knights are highly motivated by) and you'd be surprised what you find yourself doing!
Another fact that points to LF is that of all the suspects LF is the only suspect who knows that Tywin and the Tyrell’s would save Kings Landing and Tyrion was no longer needed for its defense.
Definitely Littlefinger. He then tried to kill him at the purple wedding (poisoned pie).
LF has shown he's able to keep his plans in motion even when he's "away" and I think he would realise the benefit of being gone when his crimes are perpetrated.. On that note;
Imagine Baelish set up the whole Tyrell alliance as part of his scheme to get close to Sansa. That's pretty evil but that's also the level that LF works on almost all of the time....
Concerning the bit about after the battle of KL..that's a good point also. When Tyrion wakes up he has been drifting in and out of conciousness, basically only waking up when the poppymilk wears off. He is delirious with fever and has suffered a pretty serious wound. Combined with all the other bad news that gets dumped on him within a few minutes of waking up, it makes sense that he would be looking to place blame in his wroth
It was Little Sam, he's got killer in his eyes 😂
3 books later and we still have no idea who's done it. At this point I don't think Grrm knows either.
At the rate he's getting books out (almost an exponential increase in time between releases), GRRM isn't going to live long enough to finish the series. We'll probably never know.
The analysis is good but it's missing an important piece:
"On one side of him was a raging battle, a great confusion of bright banners waving above a sea of struggling men, shield walls forming and breaking, mounted knights cutting through the press, dust and mud and blood and smoke. On the other side, the Red Keep loomed high on its hill, spitting fire. They were on the wrong sides, though. For a moment Tyrion thought he was going mad, that Stannis and the castle had traded places. How could Stannis cross to the north bank? Belatedly he realized that the deck was turning, and somehow he had gotten spun about, so castle and
battle had changed sides. Battle, what battle, if Stannis hasn’t crossed who is he fighting? Tyrion was too tired to make sense of it. His shoulder ached horribly, and when he reached up to rub it he saw the arrow, and remembered. I have to get off this ship. Downstream was nothing but a wall of fire, and if the wreck broke loose the current would take him right into it."
At the time of the attempted assassination, there were "mounted knights cutting through the press" of Stannis' ranks. Stannis was being charged and broken by a combined force of Lannisters and Tyrells. The battle was already won. Thus it was the PERFECT time for Mandon to attempt to assassinate Tyrion because Tyrion was no longer needed.
A man like that would also be difficult to buy, because it'd be damn near impossible to approach him. It's difficult to manipulate when you've no clue if you're getting anywhere and it would be difficult to delegate something so integral to anyone else loyal to LF.
Littlefinger is the guy imo and I can add how Ser Mandon Moore got on the kingsguard. It's the same way Jon Arryn died, through Lysa.
Another motive is that Tyrion took away Harrenhal from Littlefinger's man Janos Slynt. Littlefinger asks for Harrenhal himself, it's extremely relevant to his plans to have at least access to it.
That All Blacks win over Ireland in Paris might be a Top 10 in New Zealand’s history! This Irish team has a higher ceiling than it gets credit for. Anyone who steps into Johnny Sexton’s shoes and fills them will make them quite dangerous.
Tyrion had a lot of enemies that would have like him to die, and a battle is a very good place for a person to die without any suspicion or questions. His family didn’t exactly like him especially his Father and Sister, which also includes his psychotic nephew who happen to have a lot of followers, Varys could have killed him to create more chaos to destabilize the Realm, Littlefinger would probably done the same to him to create that chaos, and Tyrion time in Kingslanding created a lot of enemies and he didn’t create a alliance of trusted people who he could rely on in dire times.
The fact that we never find out very much points to little finger. If it had been Joffrey or Cersei else they would have bragged about it, or lamented about it, but little finger, not so much.
If it was little finger, we'd likely find no evidence, and since there is no evidence, It's likely that it's little finger.
If not Joffrey, I imagine Varys would be a reasonably likely candidate at the time, for the same reason that he eventually kills Kevan Lannister. He wants the rule of the Lannisters to be disruptive and failing by the time that aegon is ready, and Tyrion is a stabilizing force.
I honestly think it was Joffrey. Between his hatred for Tyrion and the fact that Tyrion humiliated Joffrey moments before Joff left Ser Mandyn alone with Tyrion, plus Joff is a raging idiot, it's exactly something he would do. I can see the argument for Littlefinger, but honestly, if he wanted Tyrion dead, there would have been countless other ways to make it look like an accident without suspicion without relying on the odd chance that Ser Mandyn could be alone with Tyrion on the battlefield.
Littlefinger, he fears his competence and convinced the kingsguard still loyal to Jon Arryn that Tyrion poisoned Jon.
There's one more person that could have ordered Tyrion death is Varys. Varys had no problem with dispatching an effective Lannisters like Kevan and Tywin. He freed Tyrion and Varys used the Cross bolt that killed both Tywin and Kevan.
Mandon Moor is one of the guys described as fish like. So I’d say it was the spider