Ep. 18 - Mid bass Myth..BUSTED! Chest Kick, where is it and how to get it in your Home Theater!
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 28. 06. 2024
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Get Massive Chest KICK in your HOME THEATER! See exactly where some of the most popular scenes kick! Home Theater Gurus.
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I feel like I'm back in college and ur going to ask me to finish the graph in front of all students lol. Keep up the good work, u actual explain this properly
I appreciate all the effort and information you put in your videos. You're good at teaching while keeping a good, positive attitude. Thank you for doing everything you're doing.
This video did a great job demoing the real world output vs frequency for a movie. You must have one amazing setup to produce 100+ db output down to 20 hz in room.
One minor nitpick though is that the "kick" gets its name from the kick drum, which is tuned anywhere from 40 hz to 100 hz. Home theater LFE has an emphasis below this "kick" frequency to better utilize subwoofer effects in movies. Many tower speakers are tuned to this drum frequency and roll off quickly when playing LFE content. Most well designed tower speakers perform well at the "chest kick" above 40 hz without a subwoofer.
Iâm so glad I found this channel! Iâve learned so muchđ
Thanks Justin!
Thanks for all the great info!
Excellent Sirđđ Thank you .I use to watch that Accountant movie scene and the climax scenes to check the performance of my HT .
Hey man, thank you for all the technical stuff. I mean I like all of the relative layman stuff, but I love the technical stuff.
Very simple, easy to understand. Thanks for sharing. đ
Thanks and you're welcome!
Thank you very much for the measurements and concepts. Youâve got a new subscriber!! Now Iâm going to watch as many of your videos that I can.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks Peerguy!
This is superb gonna try this out later. Thanks a bunch.
You had me at chest kick
Great vids, going through them all and learning every day ! Bought a MiniDSP and UMIK-1 to and had the first fun measurements Sunday last weekend. Much fun along the way. Still want to improve my response, but its already quite a bit better than before. Tricky to integrate the mains and get 100-300 region nice in a living room. Thanks for all the info!
You're welcome and glad you're getting some use out of the videos.
Thanks, much valueable info here!
Thanks .. This is a great video.. Ive done a quick EQ change to a house curve and it sounds so much better...
Thanks James, glad it helped!!
BASS KICK! thank you, great information.
Thanks for the great content! When calibrating, would you rather EQ in a house curve (like this) and turn off dynamic EQ (like Dolby volume), or EQ a flat response and use the dynamic EQ in the AVR?
Thanks for the info bro, you learn me so much, greets from the netherlands đ
This is by far the best Channel when it comes to no-bs, real world information. It helped me alot in getting my (very much a living-) room fixed as best as possible. And all without pissing the wife off more than absolutely necessary.
I will have my actual home cinema eventualy, but until then, this is working great.
Now if she just allowed me to put a large center above the tv that matches my mains better... :D
Update:
She noticed that she couldnt Unterstand our yoga instructor on the ground, when it was comming from the center channel (polk es35) but had no problem hearing her in stereo (reckhorn s300, coax Design) so now im finally allowed to change the center to another s300 :D
It will look pretty stupid but oh boy will it sound better, specificaly Off axis
Now If she just allowed me to get a third and fourth sub..
Ur videos are extremely useful!!!!
Thanks. Glad you like them!
The kick people talk about it is when the lower frequencies 40-60 Hz hits in phase with the 70-100 Hz mains. If your subs donât play high enough and your mains donât play low enough, you lose that big kick.
Listen to any Bose system. The sub plays low enough (30-60 Hz) but thereâs no big mid bass kick.
Itâs also why Pro Audio uses dedicated mid bass bins.
Yep this is mentioned in the video.
Well, there are lots of people having the mains with a 110Hz or even 120Hz crossover. (Home theater gamer is an example) and they get chest slam.
@@santiagoezquerrocordon1470 Iâve never heard a solid kick and a solid sub bass from one enclosure. Maybe they use two different subs.
a had some subs,but max 12 inch.most chest hit i had with subs with passive radiators.
Well done đđŒ good demo and info thank you đđŒđđŒ from England đŽó §ó ąó „ó źó §ó ż
I needed this video, thanks ! Can't decide between the different Devastator variants for my new theater, because I feared I was going to miss the chest slam with the V1's and would have to add Mini's later on, which have more output in the 80-100Hz region. But seems I don't need that for the chest slam. Now I should look into the differences between the V1 and Beast Mode Devastator, to assure I have the most output up to 50Hz.
Any of the variants will work and will have ample output throughout the "fun zone" . The overall sound will come down to how well you align them and how you eq the response.
Thank You
If it works with fixing subs and house curve , your the man!!!
Did it work?
Another great video. Finally know where mid-bass kick is, or ISNT, lol.
My Klipsch R12âs donât really go below 30Hz, but REW really smoothed the available range out making them sound like different subs, but I still need different subs.
Enjoying the videos
Thanks Joe!
Another great tutorial, and another great movie may I suggest, with lots of base is KNOWING, the plane and train crashes are awesome ground rumbling, house shaking, chest thumping sound tracks. đ
Thanks!
I'll have to check that out!
@@hometheatergurus it's well worth it, the ending is pretty good too, it's my favourite movie, I won the CIVIC video DVD release competition for KNOWING, Australia wide, I won it, now this is the trippy bit, the year the movie was produced and released, at the early stages of movie, Nicolas Cage drops his glass, looking at the numbers list, realising the dates the camera zooms in on, was when his wife in movie died, the date is for my birthday of the year the movie was released in, when I won competition, I had to wait a few weeks for prizes to arrive, (47" fhd LED TV, blueray player, 8 movies, the KNOWING one of them, a KNOWING satchel bum bag and little torch, with KNOWING printed on both ), I get a call from CIVIC to come in and pick up my prize, I pick up my prize on my birthday at the close of that year, so it has a bit to do with why I love it, that and Rose Byrne is in it, plus it was mostly filmed in Australia, it's one of the best sound tracks, I think you'll agree đ đ
Around or at 100hz to about 80hz is the mid tight punchy kick
Would adding a sub (or 2) behind or next to the sofa help with the chest slam feeling if are in a large volume room? I have 2 15" in 8000 cu ft currently.
Great video. Explains a lot what happened in low frequenses. Can you geve more info about housqurve?
Thanks. You can see me applying a house curve in episode 7. I will be going over full spectrum eq in a later episode.
Where do you have your Crossover levels set for this system and how do you suggest determining the best Crossover levels for any system - Thanks.
Yes đđ
Taking a note from a rolling drum&bass bassline,
You could have your fundamental note at 38hz(D#) and your kick drum will often be tuned a perfect 5th above that rolling 38hz bassline, A#, 58hz
This production technique is often used because your kick won't interfere with the fundamental, it's in tune and it falls in that perfect kick range (50 to 80hz)
I personally think 80hz to 160hz fills in the upper end of the kick, or the tail of a fat snare, more of a light smack on the face, still important though
Thank you for such an amazing channel with such useful content . Love your scientific approach to the subject and how you deliberately try to keep the stuff simple !
Your passion for the field really shows .
Thanks Sabu. Glad you find them useful. I still can't believe people want to watch me.. Haha.
Sir, please do this experiment, thinking about chest wall & lung resonance HZ are beetween 50-63 (theory at 63hz)(+-6) & 120hz / +-6hz, please could you create a high pass filter. from 45hz LR48. I will apreciate could finish this experiment. Some chest slam could you feel with at least 70dB.
Hey HTG. Loved your video. Good to see some more intelligent discussion on CZcams for once. However, wouldn't you be better off recording the frequency response of those scenes within the source (computer) to see where the concentration of midbass frequency is in the frequency band? That way you eliminate the big variables, the playback system (your amps, EQ & speakers) as well as the room? You will then see exactly where the 'kick' is really located more clearly.
Go check out ep 7 and you'll see this sytem is quite accurate and room has essentially been removed from the response. There is slight house curve but that would be similar to a response all of us "should" have on a properly setup system. It's about as close to what you'll get in your room as it gets.
Thanks another excellent video well explained âŠ. Are you able to give me bass config order advice. Iâve just purchased new subs and was running mini dsp 2x 4 . So now I have 3 SVS sb 2000 pro running into a mini DSP then running into Arcam 550 with Dirac.
Thanks
Dynamic EQ and Dynamic V is such a dialog destroyer ! i don't use them even if the idea behind it is great and i like it.
first you run them you like it and even they seem to push the dialogue, but more you go into the Movie you can note scenes with high dynamic where a lot is going on , voices and dialogue will go under in favour of all other sounds like explosions or stuff.. after things calm down in Movie scene the dialogue cames back clearly and even louder then without Dynamic EQ / Volume!
I love how everytime my chest just feels that bomb during the intro đđ„
That intro has some real good chest kick to it
You can really feel it hitting you
Also that's how you know class starting with home theatre guru đ
Amazing content!!! Knocks spots off anything else on here, even the big names
Thanks!
Great video! This is probably a very basic question but where can I set the mentioned house curve? I have a Denon AVR-X1700H, if that helps
Thanks. See the video on Audyessy and using the app. It's around ep 39/40.
So if I buy 2 svs pb2000 pro I can tune them to kick like the sb3000?
If I'm correct from in your previous episode, I believe 7, you need to keep the mini DSP 2x4 HD hooked up to your processor/receiver correct? But what if I'm using XLR's? The 2x4HD doesn't have XLR connections correct?
Yeah it stays hooked up. Amazon sells XLR to rca cables . They should be linked in the description of episode 7.
Running two old school car audio Rockford fosgate HX2 15" subs with a crown amp for home theater. Great chest thump and the setup was inexpensive. Best part about the car audio subs is the 4ohm per voice coil so when wired in parallel, have a 2ohm load for each channel to extract the max power out of the crown amp.
No shit? Same here! (Just one, sealed...plate amp failed, switched to crown with speagon connector)
@@BFArch0n xls2002 for the subs, mains L/R towers are on a xls1002
I Have both of those Movies . I hoping to get my subs dialed in one of these days
I should have keyed in on how much a null anywhere in the repsonse would have effected the measurements we took. It will really suck the life out of the fun and impact.
WoW.. You must have quite a subs.. In that car crash scene below 20Hz and well over 100db..đ
I definitely have very capable subs but honestly many decent subs can pull that off if you get a few in a not too big room. Remember reference has peaks of 115db on the Lfe channel and here I'm at - 10 but I'm also using a house curve. But yes my system can easily exceed even that but it's overkill as I never go that loud.p
great video.....im using a 15 inch pro audio sub is it the same steps..?..i think it goes down to 40 hz
Thanks! You can use episode 10 to see if its going lower than 40hz in room.
these videos help me too much to get my subwoofers sounded properly. I ordered 2 pb 1000 pro from svs and i did position 1/3 and 1/3 opposite wall, so i had the second one to 180 phase. i did buy the umikk1 and my rew measurements looks great ( flat but using Dynamic eQ ) Is there a reason to buy mini dsp hd ? or can i save the 200$ ^_^
Thanks again for the videos man, we miss you
benefit of minidsp is being able to eq your subs separate from your mains (which you want) and also time align your subs, further improving performance
Ohhh wick is awesome, great after I got my svs sub
It's hard not to crank it!!!
Do you always need a mini DSP to tune your subs? I thought the AVR takes care of that. I'm trying to learn more about how to set up subs properly because I have lots of peaks and nulls in my listening space, partially due to an open floor design with a very sloped ceiling in my living room and vaulted ceilings in the rest of the area.
If y I have more than one sub is highly recommended.
Hello sir, sorry this is a late question but, when you were demonstrating Jock Wick, could you please tell me what the volume was on your AVR ? So I can compare/adjust my sub (PB 4000) volume to yours. Thank you very much for your work!
See ep 7 to mimic this house curve as it's shown in detail.
If I end up investing in the Minidsp
Unit, does that unit become or replace the brain of my calibration process within my Pioneer SC95 AVR?
Once my speakers are aligned especially my dual SVS PB1000pros,
And placed correctly, does the minidsp stay connected to my Pioneer once calibrated, then I can remove it?
Ok somewhat related question. What is the purpose of running towers if you have good sub integration? đ€ Crossing at 80 or even 120?
Exactly! đ.
Check out the bookshelves vs tower episode.
What are your sub recommendations in the 1k to 2k range?
Thanks for a great video...đđ I use a Arcam avr550 whit Dirac Live would you do a flat curv in dirac or Should i do a house curv..?
I have it flat now from 18-20hz and take it down from 80hz
Glad you liked it!
Dirac by default has a nice curve that should slant down as the frequency gets lower. I'll be getting to whole speaker targets but sound loses energy as it travels and competes cycles. Higher the frequency the more cycles completely to reach a given distance. thus a flat target doesn't sound natural. I'd use the default target and maybe even add a tad more down low as we explain in the 2nd half of episode 7 and the basic subwoofer setup video when we discussed house curves and their targets in the sub region.
@@hometheatergurus Hi I youst watch a little frome that video and you start to take down the curv around 30-40hz dirac messure's volume level from -50db to +20 to se the Peaks. I have placed the subbs were they can messure the best and level match them. I have 2 svs pb4000. They go down to 16.5hz in my room but starts to drop at around 19hz from there i have hade the curv at around +5or+6db on the curv flat to around 80hz and i start to take down the curv frome there.
Maybe try to take down the curv 1db or 0.5db in the time from 40hz and forward instead..?
And have the higest volume on the curv 6-7db and meet up the other speaker "fronts" at the same volume from the crossover "80hz".? maybe at 4-5db on the curv.
Great video. I have a large room and just bought an SVS SB4000. Probably a fantastic sub, but it's just not enough for the space. Thinking about building my own sub and going 18". I dont want a monstrous cabinet so I was thinking a GSG Martysub (ported) or the Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax sub and cabinet bundle (sealed). Thoughts, suggestions?
Thanks! If you're after output definitely the ported Marty subs.
@@hometheatergurus thanks for the advice. Keep up the great work!
I did it with Dirac, upward curve from 100hz down to 30hz at +10db! It turns my subwoofer into a beast and I don't think it sounds unbalanced. I'm shocked! I get the bass I love without cranking up the general volume to unpleasqnt levels!
Awesome! Ive had several guys think they needed more subs but this is all they really needed.
@@hometheatergurus I wish I had known this before. I had the SVS SB-2000 pro and I upgraded to a second hand Klipsch THX 12" ported passive sub (with accompanying amp). I bet I could have had similar results with a better curve and my SB-2000. I'll never know ! It's a shame because I think the SVS one was higher quality despite being cheaper overall.
Do you recommend this for music too? I believe so, but I'm not sure it's really to my taste. I've compared flat and curvy responses in quick succession and I'm not sure I like the bass-heavy version. Not sure though, maybe it's just a questio of habit.
@@kzantal if you're using dynamic eq or similar you can adjust the offset so it's not as aggressive. If you're using a mindsp 2x4hd you can set different house curves under different tabs and select between them with the optional remote.
By the way, which speakers would you reccommend for home cinema at a max budget of around 1000$ per speaker? Must be front ported (or not ported), in-wall speakers are an option too (they would be behind an accoustically transparent screen anyways, close to the wall).
I understand your advice but it's so hard to find lab data online. For example, my local home theater shop recommends the RBH SI-770, but I can't find proper lab results.
I was also thinking about Klipsch THX-6000-LCR. they seem to have a flat response. Never heard them though.
Any thoughts on all of this? I'd appreciate the advice.
Thanks ! I'm using Dirac though. Have you seen my speaker question by the way? Cheers!
Question where do you stand on the port vs sealed sub debate, whatâs your preference? Also do you recommend certain size subs to room size or just get the biggest you can afford/fit?
I've designed subs for 20 years and I like both. We will be getting into sub design later down the road and I'm even going to model one and build it, test it, measure it and make the plans available for subscribers.
To answer the question the question it depends. Ported sub are larger and require less power but to tune a large driver like an 18 low requires a lot of real estate as the enclosure must be large. You can take the same driver and go sealed but it will require more power down low or more drivers or both to compete with the same driver ported with a low tune.
As for ported being sloppy its because most don't set up them up right and the room gain adds so much it over exaggerates the bass. All subs need tlc, alignment and eq.
Home Theater Gurus reached out to subwoofer 101, spare change, Audioholics, Youthman etc to ask if they have seen your content, and to give you a shout out on their platforms as this stuff is gold.
@@Stevo19801 thanks. I'm actually Facebook friends with Gene from audioholics and youth man. I love their channel. I chat with youth man often. He helped a ton when I got this channel started.
The thing is, even if the PC program is showing that the 20-45 Hz range is outputting more than the "mid-bass" range (let's say 80-150 Hz) I don't think that fully proves that it's the 20-45 Hz range that's fully responsible for the quick, hard, and punchy punch that is often associated (incorrectly or correctly) with "mid-bass." The reason being that, although the 20-45 Hz is outputting more (more decibels), the "mid-bass" is perceived to be heard more by humans than the 20-45 Hz range which is perceived to be heard less but felt more. It may be the overalll sonic qualities of the 80ish - 150ish Hz range combined with fast attack & decay typically used in that range which offers a lot of that satisfying, quick, hard, thump - regardless wether the 20-45 Hz range is doing even more (higher decibels) or not.
Just thinking off the top of my head here. I'm no way near as qualified as you..
It's definitely all of the frequencies combined that give quality bass. Any dips or nulls or even peaks in the response will kill the depth and clarity of the bass. This video is just showing where the most output is needed in the clips measured. Those peaks equate to what's pressuring the room most.
So does it make more sense to set the crossover at 100hz as opposed to the more popular 80hz to let the sub handle most of the LFE?
I cover that in ep 7 and 10 but I'd let the subs handle as high as possible as long as they aren't localized so yeah you may be able to get it up a tad over 80hz. The primary reason is that subs properly placed and aligned will give a consistent seat to seat response so for accuracy they should handle as much as possible. That said you see the demand in the 80hz and up range isn't nearly as demanding as the lower stuff so decent bookshelves can easily handle an 80 hz crossover. Of course we determined that in the home much power do you need episode.
Watched a video the other day where the guy ran a tone sweep so we could see where our subs cut out. My massive 8" Sony powered sub dropped out completely somewhere between 40-45 Hz. Now I see just how much I'm missing from the movies I watch.
Check out episode 10. You may have a null as that's quite high even for an 8" sub.
@@hometheatergurus to be fair, I don't have any test equipment. So it may be reaching lower and I just don't hear it. But it definitely does not rattle my teeth.
@@johnterpack3940 episode 10 will show you how to find out using your phone. You should easily hear it down to the upper to mid 20s for an 8" sub.
What is a house curve and how do you set one?
We cover this in ep7 (minidsp) and also in ep 9 and 44 .
Sorry for a reply on an older videoâŠwhat volume was your AVR set to when doing this demo? -0db ? -15db?
No problem but man I've slept a lot since this video. I have no idea but likely close to where i listen. -15 or so.
Help too many settings for Behringer inuke 6000 , I have 2 Dayton audio 18 " subs 4 ohm RSS460 HO 4. TRYING TO FOLLOW THIS WITHOUT COOKING THE SUBS please help .
I've watched your video and I feel inclined to respond with a very lengthy post which I hope you take the time out to read carefully and respond. First off let me say that I believe your channel is really helpful and useful for persons who aren't science heads or sound engineers but looking to get the most from their respective systems. For that, I applaud you. But in relation to this specific video, I have a query. Based on my knowledge of audio, which I will admit is a lot more limited than yours, I was left wondering if the "test" you ran above could be considered valid. I ask this because in the test, you are actually reading the information which is played IN YOUR ROOM. And as a result of that could be different from others based on how your room reacts to certain frequencies. First off, the viewer has no baseline for how your room reacts with any frequency sweep. So we have no idea where the nulls and peaks are in your room. For example, the same range where you are saying has the most "chest kick" could very well be a huge peak in your frequency response in your room. Now I'm not saying it is or it isnt, but it is most definitely something that should be known before proceeding. Also, we have no idea how you have EQed your response. Based on what you said during the video, you have a house curve which boosts certain frequencies. With that being said, the viewer is being "unfairly" swayed into believing that those frequencies are that high straight from the source material, which it may or may not be. In a case like this, shouldn't the test be ran straight from the source material as opposed to from the mic placed in your room? Because in that case, the room and the EQ severely affects the readings?
This is just something I was thinking about while watching your video. I would really appreciate a response because I would love to know your thoughts on this.
Thanks again,
An avid fan of your channel
Very fair. This was however addressed in this video. I'm not sure if you watched the 2nd half of it but it sounds like you definitely missed some. My response is known and seen as we covered it in episode 7, 9, 10 and its discussed in this episode too. We've also covered house curves in general and their importance in this one. I have a very natural sounding house curve.
That said the huge peaks aren't because of my room as in any room we should be fixing modal issues and controlling the response with placement, alignment and eq. If subs are properly setup there should be no "in your room" factor. Those huge peaks are there in the mix and why they are so popular amongst movie goers. Anyone following my videos or that's had a room professionally setup will have RTA measurements of these clips that are extremely similar to what is shown. here.
@@hometheatergurus
It would have been very beneficial to viewers if you had captured the amplitude response of the source directly, and then also displayed your measured in-room response of the audio at the same point in time, which would also help to demonstrate your preferred target curve.
Perhaps you have done this in other videos, but a quick on-screen reference to this would have been helpful.
I also want to point out that even though the higher frequency peaks during these LFE "impacts" may seem to be insignificant because they register on your amplitude response graph at "much lower levels", they are in fact significant to the overall perception of the "impact" events.
This is where the Target Curve also comes into play. Based on the Fletcher-Munsion curve, our hearing is much more sensitive to those higher frequencies, so those concurrent higher frequency peaks on your graph do not register significantly higher because we already perceive them as being much louder in relation to the low frequencies. Those upper harmonics add the "snap" or "crack" to the low-frequency impact.
I'm a drummer/percussionist. Analyze the frequency spectrum and amplitude response of a typical rock snare drum hit or rim-shot.
You will be surprised at the amplitude response across the spectrum. Also do the same for the kick drum, and know that the kick drum hits also cause the snare drum and tom-toms to sympathetically resonate.
On another note, I feel that this video could have been half the length. You rambled on quite a bit restating the same points too many times, and it was a bit disjointed. Trust me, I know it ain't easy once the camera starts rolling.
Create an off-screen "bullet points" list or guideline to follow. Make your points important by stating them once, and in a brief but clear and concise manner.
I hope you realize that this is meant to be constructive criticism and I'm being extremely nitpicky!
The information in this video topic is one that needs to reach a wide audience and be understood by the audio masses. đ
@@bbfoto7248 I do comment on the importance of the frequencies not peaking. I'll soon be doing one on harmonics and how octaves of frequencies are present. As for this video if I did it again I wouldn't change a thing. Sorry if it's not up to par. You'll have to find a channel geared towards more advanced viewers. As for the length, yes I ramble. That's how I am so I may not be the right CZcamsr for you to watch if that bothers you. I am who I am and that's not changing.. đ€·ââïž.
@@hometheatergurus Please don't change your style, you are one of the best channels on youtube that actually provides information that actually helps the average DIYer. Your videos have helped me get an almost perfect response on my subwoofers. Thanks you.
i never figured it out a bass solution that worked for me i had 3 Svs pb 12" i sold them sure it was loud and could shake the living room but there was no chest slam i since then bought a big pa 18" 600 watt rms active subwoofer my goal was 2 but i didnt have the money before the shop turned the key it helped a little but still far from enough i still got my cerwin vega xls 215 and 2 cxa 10 power amp standing and collecting dust i have pretty much giving up which is a shame i even tried to write different speaker sellers and forums but since people getting impressed more easy then another there is much not much help to get and other that dont know what im writing about it not easy to get any help Could you possible help? and tell me why i dont get that chest kick in the living room there is smaller room where it happens with some cerwin vega 8F that goes deeper in the frequency but still requires a lot like full bass and surround amp cranked up to 12 or 0
I use MiniDSP and enable Audessey AutoEQ - should I eq the subs flat or add the house curve in REW/MiniDSP? Thanks
If you leave audyssey on I'd use dynamic eq so you eq flat in rew. If you don't use audyessy I'd eq a house curve in rew.
If you haven't watched it yet episode 7 will walk you through it.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks! Ive watch EP7, its awesome. Keep it up!!
So if using Dynamic EQ, do we not need to setup a house curve does it do the slope even if the curve was flat during setup ? if we have the AVR capable of selecting the offset like the Marantz AV 8805 do we set it to 300Hz for all speakers like you suggested ? What happens to any corrections in frequency that the Audyssey setup does above 300Hz. An un related question, if using the offset higher, do you recommend using the mid room correction that Audyssey MultiEQ provides?
Yes if you're using Audyssey you'll eq to flar target in REW /minidsp.
As for the editor app questions, it depends. I'm editing HPF videos this week then plan on getting a video out on auto room setup and the editor app that will answer your questions and more.
Just so you aren't waiting, if you have good speakers that are accurate I'd limit to 300hz and no I don't use the dip Audyssey places in their target. I'll explain that in the video as well.
Home Theater Gurus thank you, very much appreciate your giving me the tip. I look forward to the video on auto room setup using the app. Mine are Genelec G3 with a Genelec 7060 B sub. In a 5.1 configuration.
So what subwoofers do i get for my (sl-550)... i have to pairs... 1 set for left & 1 set for right.... tweeters in the middle... 300 rms a tower... 1200 rms for just the front left & right... i recently got a pair of psb golds for back speakers... time to fine 2 subs or more if need be...
Has anyone used miniDSP 2x4 itâs half the price of 2x4hd. Is that good enough just for subs or leave it
I have a question, how do we know these results accurately represent where midbass is? I mean take for example that your system setup has a frequency dip between 40 and 150 Hz, you'd be handicapped from the start using REW to measure in room response of "midbass" or the kick of the sound effects.
You're exactly right. If you follow the channel you'd know my response is extremely accurate with a tolerance of +/- 1.5db across my 3 main seats.
But you are correct if the response at the seats has dips or peaks the video would not have been as accurate however you'd still see those frequencies fluctuating with the scenes unless there were modal nulls.
@@hometheatergurus it would be interesting if you could record the line out direct from the DVD. This would tell you what frequencies were most emphasized in the program.
One question I have with what your saying a 10db increase at those kick frequency's when I study the rta in real the bass notes are much higher than that 10db.
This is probably behause the sub is not only taking over the frequencies below the cross-over from the speakers, but also reproducing the LFE signal which is 10db louder. Then there might be an house curve implemented which increases the sub frequencies further, e.g. +5db at 20Hz. This would result in low frequencies being 15db higher in RTA as expected.
I have a near flat curve and it doesn't suck. Only about a +1db boost from about 80hz down. I don't listen a reference level. Maybe I'm just not a bass head??
Try a house curve and see what you think. I ran flat for a long time.
@@hometheatergurus I've done up to +6db before from about 60hz and down and it's seems a bit artificial and boomy to me. I've kind of settled on +3db ish as my max for when I want a little oomph. But my go to setting is +1db and it sounds really realistic and solid to me. Same for music. Maybe I'm just different? I tend to like things that are more realistic sounding.
Balls. I bought 2 of the Klipsch R12's. Response is 29-120hz. Looks like quite a bit of this is below 29hz. Maybe those weren't the best choice.
Not the best choice but stick them in the corner and it'll help some.
This would explain why you do not need two subs that equal a cost of 5 grand that plays down to 16hz. All you need is a good brand of subwoofer that you like that plays between 20-25hz plus-minus 3db. In fact, 25hz is very satisfying bass. You're not missing much impact below that. Awesome video. I would love to see Gene from Audioholics do this kind of stuff.
The truth is good bang for buck subs like psa and hsu properly setup will outperform super expensive subs that aren't setup right all day long. Setup is key and where most fail and are missing out on performance.
But yes you don't have to go super low. There is content below 20hz as seen in the rta and that does add to the overall depth of the sound but as we see it's not overly loud compared to the area above it where most of the meat of the impacts are at but we don't want to ignore the low stuff. I like to have good output to 15hz if possible but at least to 20hz.
So I absolutely agree you don't need to be spend a fortune. Now if you listen at reference things change as higher output cost $$. For most of us though that don't listen that loud a few good subs properly setup is all we need.
This type of comment is usually made by people who have never heard subwoofers that extend into the single digits. There are a TON of movies these days with solid content into the low teens, and even quite a lot with information in the single digits. There is a reason people chase lower and lower frequencies, and it is not about impact, it is about the feeling you get from the pressurization of the room at those frequencies. Right now, I have good output to right around 8Hz, which is low enough for the time being. I didn't spend 5 grand on my subs either. Chest slam and low extension are totally different concepts, each with their own merits. If all you care about is chest slam, you've probably never heard a system with ULF extension.
@@AP-nh1tf what's sad is you replying to my post that is 6 months old to make a point. I've been in this hobby for over 30 years. I was an installer before they called it integrator. Had one of the first Yamaha "Pro-Logic" receivers, one of the first Pioneer Laser Disc Players and the first generation Toshiba DVD player. Earthquake, BagEnd, M&K and Cerwin Vega are some of the subwoofers i had back in the 80's and 90's so don't lecture me about frequency response down to 15hz.
Good for you, I still think you have never heard a system that plays into the single digits with authority. Or, you made the decision in your own system to limit your frequency response, and you are just trying to justify your shortcomings. Oh, and pardon me, apparently it is faux pas to reply to any post older than what, a couple days? Sorry, when people make uneducated comments I feel the need to respond. Just because you have 'experience,' doesn't mean you know anything about adequate subwoofer frequency response. FYI, I had a Beta Max player, soooooo buuuuuuuuuuuuuuurn, I automatically know more than you! Give me a freaking break.
Quick Question: I have 4 10" subs in each corner of a room, there aren't any nulls except where theres the front door is located. Which I'm ok with. It's the front door.. but my question is, when I stand up in the middle of the room between the 4 subs, there is a hefty null, but when I sit in the same spot. The null is gone.. is that ok? Is it standing waves? Can it be fixed?
Episode 11 will explain this to you but the short answer is yes you can fix it by placing a sub on the same plane as the null or getting the virtual sub there. If that makes no sense watch 11.
@@hometheatergurus yes I understand, but I will have to replace a center table with a subwoofer. Well atleast I don't stand and watch movies. So I'll think I'll just deal with it. Thanks for your help my man.
@@DurtySpriteEnt They wouldn't have to be out in the room but Because the mode is a height mode you'd have to lift the subs to that level. That would probably look odd so I'd agree with you on not worrying about it.
Lesson learned: âFix your Dang subsâ.. đ
Haha.. you got it!!!!!
There's other justifications for implementation of MBMs other than freq response. Driver inductance is always a concern, but a driver's impedance and how it aligns with it's resonant freq can be exploited nicely in a MBM, not so in a typical sub.
High Xmax sub drivers are oftentimes plagued with additional problems that aren't obvious on a FR.
Even a highly capable 15", 18" etc., experiences significant thermal compression simply as a by-product of current flow.
There's a free lunch synergy that can be harvested in a MBM, with it's resonance/impedance peak lying nicely in the middle of it's operational range. There's an important subjective "punch" region, whereby thermal compression is nil.
With the big impedance peak, instead of voice coil current being turned into heat, essentially all the VC current contributes to driver motion. This effect is easily measured but most importantly it is HUGE subjectively.
VC thermal compression is insidious. It's insidious because it's a subtractive distortion, so it doesn't present as typical nonlinearities.
When that subtractive compression is stripped away, perceived detail, clarity and speed is reclaimed.
A normal high stroke sub covering from the single digits up to 80hz-120hz is quite demanding... even supplemented with multiples.
A driver's stroke pumping out those explosive wavelaunch thumps in John Wick, is 16x more stroke @10hz, than even the lowest note on a bass guitar @41.1hz. The detail riding atop that killer thumpage just get lost. All the energy filling the room is also fighting back inside the cabinet, that latent energy smears subsequent bass detail as well.
Just as a practical matter, bass detail and clarity are a much different discipline than those visceral wave effects that we all enjoy. As stroke is quadrupled with every lower octave, there is significant performance gains to be had via splitting up those duties.
Thanks
Also
Just thought of this; picture a little tiny miniature slap funk bassist riding atop that subwoofer as it strokes back and forth 2-3 inches tracking those explosive effects. He's waving trying hard to get our attention as he plays. We look closer... damn! It's RHCP Flea! "Yo, pimping ain't easy, neither is this bass on top of these huge strokes".
OK, so what do you sell?
It'll wKe the dog up.. đ
in tekkno PA kick is considered around 120Hz. a kickbin in a multiway system is a build maxing output around 120Hz. you had little peaks around 120Hz in most of your examples in the video. yes those peaks are lower dB levels than the sub bass levels. sound perception is relative we perceive a change in pressure not a constant pressure in music signals. peaks (strong pressure change) at higher frequencies (midbass) are perceived stronger in our limbs and body relatively to if the same dB peak was at lower frequencies (subbass). clearly people talk about different matters when talking about "kick". a drum n bass kick isn't the same as a tekkno kick or a live music kickdrum so to speak and apparently cinema kick is another topic too. my guess is it's about tone of bass not only dB and frequency.
what video is it you use to test with?
If you watch the video I tell you and tell you exactly what scenes and the time stamps we are testing.
I might of missed it, but it's your system at reference flat from 20Hz to 200Hz? If the lower end is elevated from 150Hz then the REW results are not indictive of where the chest pounding bass actually is, but rather where your setup emphasizes the source material. I can tell you 100% chest pressure occurs between 90Hz-120Hz. Your are also correct, getting phase alignment of mains to subs is most important.
Sounds like you didn't watch enough of the video. We cover this and we are looking at peaks with a few popular scenes and where those scenes energy is at. So no matter what one may think the Peaks of energy is at, in those scenes it was not near 90-120hz. Some scenes may have upper bass peaks there but not these. My response is very accurate which was covered.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks mate, did watch the rest. Yes, you use a house curve, not flat curve. I agree with you on the importance of phase alignment. But disagree with where chest impact from kick drums mainly come from My experience there comes from data driven testing in anechoic chambers and audio source recordings for a large commercial audio company. You can also analyze source recordings of impactful kick drums. Maybe look at the pro audio data as well.
I have a very very slight curve but this video shows impact so it's irrelevant. The energy shown is where it is and shows where you need to pay attention if you want these scenes to kick. It's not an opinion but actual measurements.
This is about these scenes only. This isn't something you can agree or disagree with as it's about these scenes. The energy for these scenes is not centered at 90-120hz. Those frequencies are actually not that active at all in comparison to the lower frequencies in these scenes with the lower frequencies showing huge increases in output that in some cases is over 30db (almost 40 in once scene) higher than 90-120hz which far exceeds my house curve which was around 10db. That's actual data. The slight curve I have is similar to what most properly setup rooms will have so it also shows a representation of the energy in those rooms, during these scenes and where to focus in your room to recreate these scenes with kick. There may be some scenes with upper bass peaks but these scenes are not it.
so since i been watching your video and going thru winisd and going with HT1 tuned at 20hz. max spl 119 @ 30hz and 117db @ 20hz is that enough for chest slam
Id you notice the peaks in video I'm only peaking around 105 to 110 but if course I want at reference. Even at the levels while recording I was getting some massive tactile kick. I'd say you have plenty of output to pressurize the room near reference levels.
@@hometheatergurus my living room setup is that i have a 20x20 that goes into an open area then the kitchen and hall way and 12ft ceiling at the highest . i will be ordering the 2x4HD and get more familiar with REW. the WAF she doesnt not want 4ft panels. she wants small 12inx12in
@@joeydelmarsjr.646 Put a fake plant in front of them and don't tell her đ
@@hometheatergurus lol
What was your AVR volume level when you recorded these?
That was years ago. I'm sure I mention it in the video but it's not really relevant as far as what we're looking at.
So what would you say is the point of the gsg Devastator that prioritizes the mid bass kick? Would I be better off getting four subs that could go lower or would two devs be satisfactory? Assuming everything is set up perfect.
Gsg home theater devs are tuned for 19hz. They go low or as low as I'd want to go. Basically they do it all.
@@hometheatergurus hey thanks for replying. So that is something I have noticed from your excellent videos is that you do not seem to take much stock in going much lower than 16-15hz with subs. I have never experienced subs in the single digits. Iâm sure you have. Is it not really worth it? Reason I ask, and I understand everything is subjective in this hobby but understanding that I would love to hear your take or experience and why that doesnât seem to be valuable to you to chase those extreme low frequencies. Thanks for your time, I have learned so much from your videos. Best on CZcams bar none.
@@stevenspackman3742 it's a crap loud of pressure on you and the room and personally takes me out of the content. I prefer to use tactile transducers for that lower stuff so you can control it and it doesn't pressurize the room and beat the snot out of it, shaking doors and windows violently. It's fun and many like that but it's not for me.
Love this channel! This is what is missing in the home theater world. Education. Thanks for all the effort on these videos.
I personally don't like dynamic eq since it also messes with the channel levels of the surrounds and i find it drowns out the center. I leave it off and apply a curve with the multi eq app.
Thanks! The editor app is awesome. Love it.
Does the ypao setting do the same with Yamaha receivers?
Why doesnt anybody use mid bass modulesin home theater?
These physical visceral influences matter because they initiate chemical changes in the brain that are the generators of emotion and feeling. It's how you really get the sensations of being within the film.
Hey Steve Iâve been messing around with the minidsp and I added the bump house curve manually (on config1) using rew eq, then I did another separate config2 re ran everything again and manually bumped the area of 30hz by 3dB in the minidsp peq and used .5q. This gave me a nic bump in sound too. I then allowed audyssey dynamic eq on after doing the calibrations without dynamic eq. Is it ok to use this house curve plus dynamic eq together?
Absolutely as long as the house curve was based on a measurement after you ran audessey. If you ran Audyssey after you made the house curve filters the repsonse they're based on won't exist now as audyssey will have flattened the response.
I hope that makes sense.
Home Theater Gurus awesome! I started over as I moved one of my subs to see if I could get more from it as I felt it was too far away. I had just matched them up last night but didnât get into audyssey or house curve again yet. I posted some graphs in the htfe group to see if anyone had input on my line before I move on to house curve
@13:40 that's not typical bass drum. That's dance electro. That "unce eh unce eh" sound....not what you get from a real acoustic kick drum. I play drums and have personally never heard my drums make that sound. lol An RTA shows my kick drum at closer to 80-90hz, but depends on how I tune it. But you gotta get that beater click, otherwise it just doesn't sound that spectacular. The bass drum lives in a few ranges to get the full range of it's sound. I filter them out and send them to the proper places in my speaker setup. The thump goes to the subs and that's all I send them. The click goes to the mains. They have to hit simultaneously or it won't sound right.
We are just looking at some popular scenes not the frequencies of particular instruments.
Why are you saying that your kick is between 20Hz and 30Hz??
House curve makes the bass sound more natural, but the proper way to get chest slam it's to rise db between 60Hz and 100Hz
I'm saying nothing. I'm simply showing you where the brunt of the energy is in some popular scenes.
Hi there, wrong assumption here: the fact the peak of energy is located in the subs does not mean in any way that this huge peak of energy is what is PERCEIVED as "the kick". Why's that ? Well, first thing this test is missing is to take into account the human ear sensitivity frequency response curve that would show: yes sub bass needs a lot of energy because we don't perceive it very well...lot's of wasted energy in fact so to say. I believe "the kick" is not in the subs for a simple reason: I own a pair of old Altec 817A horn loaded 2x15" cabinets and these cabs are not producing any subs, just horn loaded mid bass and they deliver the hell of a "kick" in the plexus / stomach !
This is just showing where the most energy and demand is at and where we need to focus (head room wise) to cleany play these popular scenes. In the theater design world we already know this. I just like to show it.
Thanks for watching.
@@hometheatergurus Yep, this clearly shows that most of the energy is below 100Hz and explains why few thousand watt amp for the subs is a must have to generate all this energy. I love your CZcams channel by the way. Keep it going !
@@didierelchardus3472 thanks!
With 20 years in sub design and a pretty advanced knowledge of room design and sub setup I can't agree with that.. Completely. My subs were probably outputting 200w max at those peaks in the video. Power needed is totally dependant on the alignment you choose (ported vs sealed) the placement and alignment of the subs themselves and the playback level. In this room I could hit reference on 300w per sub. Now if you have sealed subs and they require lots of boosting or have baked in boosting like most store bought sealed subs do then yes you need a lot of power to overcome the alignment.
Well designed Ported subs and horn subs actually can hit pretty crazy levels on little power. Assuming they're setup right.
There are expection like jtr subs which are ported (tuned) very low and boosted above tuning but that is by design. Subs tuned with a flat response with no filters are extremely efficient.
Does episode 7 apply if I only have one sub
The sub alignment won't apply but the eq section will apply.
Wait so do I put my settings to LFE+Main or just simply LFE????
LFE
Watch this and you'll be explaining to others the what and why.
czcams.com/video/HQMl5kradA4/video.html
@@hometheatergurus even that tho bass is still being sent to the main speakers even tho I set them to small.
@@Lowkey_nxthxn watch the video I linked above. I show why with measurements. We could spend all day going back and forth here and still not explain it as well as that video. Beside being you're asking that that video will probably answer even more questions you don't know you had.
@@hometheatergurus most definitely will watch the video. Thank you boss I will get back in touch with you appreciate your content
I saw this guy on the news on January 6th.
You did!? Changing lives one video at a time... đ€
Forgive me if someone already said this, I scanned through the comments and didnât see it. To me this demonstration isnât proving that mid bass is actually bass, to me itâs actually proving the opposite. That youâre not getting that mid bass/upper bass kick out of your system. If you were showing what was actually in the recording itself that would make sense, but youâre just showing us that your system is down in the region youâre talking about and your system doesnât have the mid bass kick that guys are adding mbmâs to try to get. In other words if your system was better from 80-120hz then your rta readings would show it. Do you see what Iâm saying?
This is simply showing where the energy is in popular scenes. What you are seeing is actually what is in the recording. The system in that room is very accurate. You can call it what you want. It's not an opinion video as we are actually measuring the scene. You can make your own determination what to call it. What you see throughout the entire rta is what is in the scene.
If you need mbm modules you need better speakers or of course you could have a modal issue that you can't fix any other way, they could make sense in that case.
Thatâs true, if itâs a system that you know measures pretty flat then it is a good representation. Thatâs the part I was overlooking.
Thank you for the response and all the great content.
This video also shows that a sub that doesnât dig into the teens can be very enjoyable.
oh mann, you almost hit 115db, hows your ears handle it, my max record is 100db dead