Ep. 11- Professionally place seats and subwoofers! Home Theater Subwoofer Setup | Home Theater Gurus
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- čas přidán 23. 10. 2019
- Properly place your Home Theater Subwoofers and seats using a room mode calculator! Subwoofer setup | Home Theater setup done right. Home Theater Gurus
For room plans by Home Theater Gurus, building and design consultation contact me at @
Elitehomecinema.sales@gmail.com
Room mode calculator link (this file will download to PC when you click it, it will be in your downloads folder)
www.harman.com/documents/Room... - Věda a technologie
This video was a game changer for me, thank you so much for this. I had come across some of these ideas, but never was able to make heads or tails of it. Watching all your videos has had changed my layout for the better. I enjoy watching everyone that talks home theater set ups, and I've used ideas from different people. But these videos while a bit technical, made a lot of sense once I started to apply them to my set up. Again, THANK YOU !
Awesome. Really glad my videos aren't going to waste! 😁
Thank you for all your videos. I am a Mech Engr so have understood room response for 20 years but your video was great a explanation. I used Your Vids, REW, a UMIK and 2x4 HD miniDSP to fix my T shaped apartment. It was quite the challenge but i think i have made the best of my bad room situation. i think of the room as either a 25 x 12.5 room or a 31 x 12.5 room for placing subs and listening positions. I have 4 Klipsch subs: 2 x inexpensive Klipsch R12SW's, a 20 year old powerful RSW12 and I added a RP14SW. Currently I have the subs aligned (trial and error) and still need integrate the virtual sub with my Receiver. My system is ATMOS with the AVR-6700 driving R C L and 2 old Denon 125W/channel Rcvrs acting as 4 channel Power Amps for 4 surrounds and one for 4 ATMOS height speakers.
My apartment has a basic T shape with lots of openings, cathedral ceilings and the fireplace is in the corner is at 45 degrees. The Theater setup is on the Left side of a is 25' wide x 12.5 front/back area before I add the openings. The left side has a wide opening that extends into a 6 foot entryway. The wall with that entryway has opening than 12.5' wall. The right side has a 4' Parallel hallway that extends the 12.5 foot depth by about 3.5 feet. That is why i call it T shaped. The right side also has a standard door size opening into the kitchen. So I have parallel walls 12.5 feet apart Back to Front (or 16.5 if i include the hallway to right of the theater area) .... couch is out from the wall at the distance that looked good on harmon diagram for 12.5. The dimensions I am using for the harmon diagram room responses are 12.5' and either 25' or 31' depending on if standing waves are using the entryway. I haven't measured any waves coming from the kitchen extension (16 feet) other than the base is loud in the kitchen corner. The base is super deep and loud in my front door corner in the entry but i can put a Sub there :(
When i get a house i will make a better room to put all this stuff.
Thank you. This Video is awesome.
All of your Videos are outstanding. I never learnt more before. Greatings from Germany
Thanks for explaining this, i have been seeing these calculators forever and never knew before now how to use them properly!
This has been a life-changing lecture! Thank you...
I used this guide and calculator to better place a soundbars subwoofer, I use in my 'other' room. Single sub so had to pick my range to try and boost. Previous placement was, pretty much, down to the old subwoofer crawl which, tbh, I thought sounded prety good..till now.
Thanks for another great video. Been looking forward to this one.✌🏾👍🏾
You're welcome!
Exceptionally explained, thank you for this!!!
Thanks and you're welcome!
Fantastic video. Just what I've been trying figuire out 🤘
How do you calculate room modes for an irregular shaped room, like open concept with more than 4 corners.
Ideally there would be something like sketchup to create your room and then something that can fill in that model
Once again great Video to watch...Thank u Sir for enlightening me...😀👍👌🙏
Great info. Can’t wait to thy this now!
Hi am from Kerala, India. Super video. Thanks.
Thanks for these videos. I love the long format "dive deeper" approach. I think a lot of enthusiasts that want to bridge the gap between novice and advanced, myself included, and these are very helpful. I've read Floyde Toole's book and that was excellent, but it's so helpful to just see someone putting these things into practice with REW and calculators and such. I hope to build my own house in the next 4 or 5 years, and you can be certain my theater rooms dimensions will be well thought out!
I'm glad you don't think they're too long. When I started the channel I was hoping to have enough to get to 10 minutes per vidoe but it seems I struggle to keep them under 30. I like to explain things vs just do it just because with no explanation. As this is our hobby it's worth having a general understanding of how and why things are the way they are.
@@hometheatergurus I think a lot of people are craving more long-format stuff, as seen by the rise in niche podcasts and such. CZcams for a lot of people is their new TV (since network TV is boring/dead and nobody - regardless of political beliefs - watches the nightly news anymore). Yeah you won't get the views of reviewing some hot new product for ten minutes and telling people to smash that like button, but that doesn't seen to be the crowd you are interested in anyways.
@@commanderrussels2612 Very true. Even if I did reviews it would be actual measurements or pushing a sub to its limits with measurements. I'd probably even drive subs to failure to see what they can take at say 20hz with measurements and purposely break them. I do plan to do stuff like that down the road. I also wanna show how to model and design a sub and build it and supply the cut out sheet.
@@hometheatergurus Don't worry about the length of the videos, make them as long as they need to be in order to get your message out the right way.👍🏾
I enjoy the longer videos because they tend to answer most of the questions that one would have. And the truth is, that this hobby isn't for those short on patience. If a person can't sit through one of your videos, then they will certainly not have the patience to properly set REW up and take 100 plus measurements (when needed) to find the best options. I started my room back in 2007 and have gradually added more and better equipment over the years. Today the room has a 7.3.4 set up and it's 18 x13 x7.5 with a dormer window on one side and barn a shaped ceiling. It's taken a lot of reading, forum surfing and testing to get it to be better, and your videos and approach have helped tremendously. A big problem that we all have at beginning is that we don't know how much we don't know. So at first for me having multiple subwoofers just meant adding more bass. It took some time for me to find out that the goal was to have all of these subwoofers gel together to create one giant virtual sub that could improve the sound throughout the room. Even sub manufacturers and vendors that push for multiple subs don't make this clear. So videos like yours help to bring that idea home, and clear up a lot of the uncertainty and give purpose to multiple subs. So keep them coming! 👍🏾
@@wells2671 I'm pretty sure most sub manufacturers are clueless to most of this. I've designed subs for 20 years and you can design awesome subs and know nothing at all about modal behavior in a room. Two different animals.
I've wasted tons of money over the years and made so many mistakes. Like you said we just don't know when starting out or even after a decade we still don't know it all.
Thank you very much for these videos. Very interesting and easy to understand. I am in the process of getting a pair of 15" Subwoofers for my dedicated HT from HSU. I am limited in where I will be able to place them ...1/4,3/4 up under screen is probably best option i have... My room is 12.5 x 18.5 x 8. Being a computer programmer....i prefer numbers, graphs and math over crawling around on the floor listening or watching some SPL meter. Might use your technique with Mode Calculator to see what I can do...thou I am limited.
Thanks again....off to watch more of your videos. Keep up the good work.
edit: so looks like on length i have problems at 1/2(31hz) and 1/4(62hz) and width at 1/2(45hz) and 14(90hz)....hmm...I think im screwed given where I can put the subs :( Luckily my seats do not appear to be in nulls....good thing cause there is no moving them.
You're welcome.
Wonderful video! Thanks! Just one silly question, if we place a sub on intersecting notes (lengthwise and breathwise), do we fix the nodes on both axis? Or does it only work in the direction of the sub drivers?
Very clever stuff.
🤯 craziness!
Best video on the subject
Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you've found it helpful!
Great videos!!!!
Could you do a video of Group delay, what to look for and how to correct?
Also a video how to learn all what the waterfall is telling you?
Do you have a facebook page for Home Theater Gurus?
I`m a big fan, all the way from Norway!
Hey! Thanks for these videos! Question, if we put 2 subs along one wall (the side wall of the room) will that eliminate the nulls along the front wall of the room as well? For example I have a null at 53 Hz at 5.5 feet into the front wall of my room. If I put 2 subs along the quarter, and halfway point along the side wall , will it eliminate the null at 53hz along the front wall
Hi thank you for the videos i am enjoying them allot. my living room is square 19 x19 will placing the subs at a null fix the issue going the length and width of the room since the calculator is showing the same frequency For L x W 58hz
Great video ....How about when you are trying to set your 5.2 system? How to you use the room mode calculator to determine where to put the speakers and sub in the room ?
Thanks! The room mode calculator is only used to place subs and seating. The loudspeakers are placed per episode 1 thru episode 3. With one and two going over the bed layer and ep 3 covering atmos. There's an episodes 3.5 that also covers atmos top middle.
I wish I found this video sooner, because it's extremely helpful. One question I do have, my room is 19.3 ft long and I've got my first row at 10.5 feet, 2nd row is about at 17ish so surrounds are close. Based on the room modes and 4 ft between rear surrounds and rear row, should be be looking at moving my front row to 8.3 ft? Seems close and would also put me right under my front heights.
When I do room designs I place the seats first so if you're in a modal issue yeah I'd move however if forced to sit in a mode, if it's in the sub region subs can be placed to fix the issue.
Thank you for a great video. I have a room with an acoustically transparent screen 3ft from the front wall. Also there are symmetrical soffits running on the both sides of the room for the entire length of the room. Subs will stay in front of the AT screen. I am trying to figure whether, behind screen length also has to be taken into account in calculating room modes. And how to deal with soffits when measuring height.
The AT screen will be invisible to the sub. You'll use the actual room walls. The the Height modes just use the height above the seated heads.
@@hometheatergurus Thank you.
Thank you all the great videos I am learning alot. I went to the Harmon web site and printed it out. How you you calculate if you have vaulted ceilings from front to back? My front and rear ceilings height is 8' but in the middle of my room is 13'6". The length of the room is 20'6" and width is 16'3". Thanks for the help
You're welcome.
The width and length modes can be calculated in the calculator but with that vaulted ceiling the height modes can't. You can play a sub in the room running sweeps and measure at different heights to find nulls.
If we assume we have 2 subs, and they are currently both agains the front wall, and we want to address the room modes as you have shown: is it possible to place the first subwoofer against the front wall (exactly as you have shown) but instead of having the 2nd sub on the left wall (when facing the screen) place the 2nd sub against the right wall? would that also result in a virtual sub at our desired point?
Great video regarding subwoofer placement. If I wanted to place 4 subs in my room, but couldn't place them at the back of the room, could I place 4 upfront? 2 at 1/4 at the front and 2 at 1/4 along the front sides? Also, which direction should side subs face? Across the room or in the same direction as the front 2 subs?
Did you ever find out the answer?? Wondering the same
@@ants9574 i didnt, but i think that when all subs are time aligned, I think it would be great.
@@hdmoviesource yes it would that would get rid of all modes. Did you face your subs towards you
Amazing video. Thank you. I have a question regarding double Bass setting with floor standing towers able to dip into 30hz. Would this help fill the room with bass or make things worse?
See ep 9. I cover this as well as show a visual of what happens when you use it.
I can put 2 subs in the front two corners, but my back wall has the door in the back right corner of the room. Could I put the front two subs in the corners and the rear two subs at 1/4 and 3/4 points and still get the same benefit?
You will have true nulls only in a reverberation chamber, i.e. full reflective room with average alpha near 0.01. In a dead room the bandwidth of the axial mode is bigger so the null will turn into a node.
Thanks for watching!
When using the room calculator with a false front wall upon which the screen is mounted, does one use the measurement from the screen to the rear or from the front of the room behind the screen to the rear? Thanks for the informative videos!
Boundary walls are all we care about.
Great video. A lot of usefull information.
But for some reason it doesn't seem to work in my home theater(20x12x7). No matter where I place my subs (2x svs sb1000) I keep having a null at my seating area around 40hz.
The only area I didn't try yet is the backwall. I just ordered a longer subwoofercable at Amazon, so I will try the backwall positions in the weekend.
They say the output and responce of a sealed sub is more effected by room gain than with a ported sub. Does this means a sealed sub has more trouble with "nulls" than a ported sub?
Gr Ted from the netherlands
My apologies if my english isn't perfect. 😉👍
You're English is perfect!
Have you tried the method in episode 10 to find a spot for your subs? If you wanna go all out look at episode 7.
As for sealed vs ported the room influence is exactly the same. What I mean by that is if spot A in a said room has 5db of boosting at 20hz due to room gain any sub you put there will get that gain. The room doesn't care what produces the frequency, if a certain frequency is present it will react.
The difference between sealed and ported is that sealed usually begins to fall around 35hz or so and falls at a gradual 12 db per octave. Ported will usually be flat to the tuning frequency but below the tuning frequency it drops 2x as fast at 24db per octave. So if the ported is tuned to say 20hz and you use the room example above the ported naturally has more output at 25hz where the sealed is falling and so the ported will have too much output and need eq to knock it back down where the sealed will be more linear pre eq.
What an amazing video. Am about to design and build our new home with a dedicated theatre - and I've suffered bad nulls in all past rooms, which I think were likely height nulls more than anything. Quick question: does the back row of seats have different height nulls due to having the seats risen up a foot?
Thanks. Yes it'll be based off the riser floor.
@@hometheatergurus Many thanks. Given that this second height presents a new set of modes, just 1ft different to the bottom tier, would you suggest placing a sub roughly at the height that is roughly half the riser height higher than you otherwise would for a single row of seats?
That depends on which row has an issue. If one row has no issue but the other does place the driver at the height of the row with the issue.
Any advice how to calculate L shape room ?
If in a row 4 seats means then how to calibrate and whats your calibration point, which is your main row and from where to calibrate
Hey Steve, thanks for this excellent explanation. On your board you place the subs sideways and sometimes using the front. Does it matter? I mean if we want to place our subs at the 1/4 and 3/4 should the sub front be facing the seats always?
What matters is the acoustic center of what produces the frequency so basically the center of the cone.
@@hometheatergurus OK, so the center of the cone should be on that 1/4 and 3/4 line and facing the listener
@@InvestingwithKurt it actually doesn't have to face the listener. These waves as so long they'll pressurize the room no matter the oriention.
Are there any assumptions when using the harmon calculator ? ie. how far away from the front wall your mains are sitting ?
It's discussed in the video. Moving the sources around the room maniputes the modes as shown. They don't move or change in frequency as the walls don't change but we can fight them when the speaker/s are placed at specific points.
Which sub placement should get priority between good locations found with Rew/spectroid and following the room mode calculator?
If you have a rectangular room REW will just confirm the sub locations work with the seating placement placed with a room mode calculator. This is how designers know how to place subs in room before the room is built. But of course you should always verify before you begin alignment as we did in episode 7.
Can you do tutorial with rew how to find nulls. Is it possible send sine wave at diffrent freqency and moving arround the microphone. Lot of us have strange room thats need a more practical way?
Yeah actually I did sorta. In episode 10 I made a video using an rew sweep and show how to use a phone app to find nulls and good sub spots. It's for those not ready for REW.
For what you wanna do you'd do the same basically only you'd place one sub in a corner (so no room modes are hidden by placement) and measure around the room while playing sweeps. You can also the rta function in rew.
But yes it does sound like a good idea to do a video on it as not all rooms are rectangular.
I have read countless books on the subject. Purchased microphone and installed rew. But reading about things is not the same as when you show how practical things are. Curves I should understand but the next problem is how to see rewearb in the room. Zero, High peaks, RT60 changes if i put in aborbent or diffuser. I can hear the difference put measure ..; D... Your tutorials are very good.
@@Bertilsdotter1 Thanks you! I'm really glad you find the videos helpful.
Hi. I was curious to attempt reproducing this simple layout in REW - Room Simulation to see if it would match up. Oddly, the REW simulation frequency response looks quite horrible compared to yours at 30 minutes into this video. Wondering if there is a trick, or some values that would make the sim = your results if the sim is at all realistic or a useless part of the tool?
I don't use the REW simulation tool. It's a prediction and honestly I haven't used it but I do know it's based on impulse (distance) which is based on one spot so it doesn't work for what i do and the more subs you have the less accurate impulse is. With room plans I use the method I show in the room mode episode.
I need a bigger room!! I have now measured my room for hours with REW moving the microphone around trying to found a spot to site without to many nulls. And it's impossible ):
One thing that I can say is that the Room Mode Calculator is 100% consistent with my measurements.
Is it possible to use a subwoofer array with stereo? Having 2 subs for each channel and hoping that the could help each other. placing them diagonal
You don’t need a bigger room, you need more subs
I needed a bigger room too, so I went outside. It's my anechoic chamber. Now I treat every job as an echo-reducing job. The main problem is the ceiling. Deaden the ceiling and your home free. (Been there, done that.)
I know that the Harmon calculator will show exact frequencies based on room dimensions. But for a room like mine that is not a perfect rectangle and has the barn shaped ceiling, would it make sense to place a Subwoofer in one of the corners and play pink noise to excite all the modes, and then walk across the room front and back while using the something like the Spectroid app from episode 10? This way we could mark off the spots that dip/null and also see exactly which frequencies are most affected at those nulls for that specific room? Or would we instead be better off playing individual frequency tones based on the Harmon results instead of pink noise? I ask this just incase the calculated results (frequency and location) are slightly off to the left or right because the room isn't a perfect rectangle. And one other question, I understand that bass frequencies are omni-directional, but when placing a sub in a null, does it need to be the center of the woofer cone that sits at that null point? I noticed in REW when I used the room simulator, that the orientation of the sub changes depending on where you are trying to place it, and the measurement for distances always seem to be based the middle of the cone.
Yeah the center of the cone is where it's at Acoustically at in the room.
Don't use pink noise when finding nulls. It's only sound at every octave so it's not present at all frequencies. White noise may work but I tried it for episode 10 and it didn't read well with rta. That's why I ended up using sweeps. But yes you could definitely use sweeps to find the nulls. White noise should work too to find a null it's just harder to read. If the side walls are say 14' apart and 1/4 off the side wall you have an 80hz null then the calculator is accurate between those two walls. So even if the rear is open or the ceiling is vaulted you can use it for some modes.
@@hometheatergurus got it. Thanks again.
So based on your diagram, Would this have worked if you had had one at the screen wall 3/4 (so left of the centre speaker)and one at the length 3/4( left of the back seats)?
I was wondering if this would work also.
Hmmm that would be interesting to know as that would help me in placement
what about dual opposed subs like my PSA S3600, just choose one cone to be at the axial mode point, or would you place the centre of the sub at the axial mode?
also when placing the subs at 1/4 way is it just only one dimension, say 1/4 the Length of room, or is it, 1/4 length + 1/4 width + 1/4 height?
and with regards to height, can i either raise my chair using a riser or would raising the sub have the same effect?
Why do you have to be difficult... :). Haha.
Yeah I'd probably just use the center of the cabinet as your mark. Not much else to do of course if you know the mode you're fixing say at 1/4 and 3/4 on the front wall you could place the sub with one driver facing forward and one back and you know the sub is centered on that mode but that may not look very good.
@@hometheatergurus lol. Yeah. I spent a good part of the day yesterday watching your videos. And measuring. And re watching your videos.
What about the height question, is raising the sub the same as raising the chair?
@@MidnightMagic raising the sub to a null is the same as placing the sub at a null on the floor. So if you were in a height null at 50hz putting the subs at that null (ear height) would fix it.
Raising the chair may avoid a null but doesn't fix them.
Can the room modes that sit outside of the sub region be handled by main speakers if they are placed in those spots?
Yeah but the problem is above the subs the sound can come from any speaker at any time but yes any time that frequency is produced at the null it will fix it.
@@hometheatergurus My Mains have built in down firing 15" Subs (xover@80Hz), and my room length is 20 feet. I was thinking on placing the Mains+subs at approx. 4.5 feet from the front wall, which looks like it will help with the 85Hz null as well as the 57Hz null. Will that also help negate the 85Hz null if my seating distance of 15.5 feet from the front wall?
What if we can place the seats BETWEEN the room dips if we cannot place the sub in those positions? LIke, we have a dip (black one) on length on the right side. What if we place the seats between a yellow dip (closed to the middle), and a black dip (closer to the back of the room)? Wouldn't it solve the issue wihout the need to move the subs?
Yes that's the point, avoid and or fix.
If you have full range towers can they act as “subs” as well to create virtual subs? And does moving the towers away from the wall change anything at all or are these just standing waves. (They’re there regardless if speaker placement)
Anything that can play in the modal range will work so yes some mains can play in the sub range, however they don't handle the LFE channel and they are stereo in that there's a left and Right. We need to have predictable sources that are always playing together to fix the issues. This is why we try and avoid the modal issues above the subs. Now if you have mains with built in subs with LFE inputs that will work although often they can't be optimally placed. This is discussed in ep 9.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks for the response!
Great video, but wasn't there also a node in the middle of the room? You seem to have completely ignored this? I have a really small room, so the only nodes that are fixable by subs are both slap bang in the middle of the room. Where should the subs go to get rid of those (I have 2)?
It was covered in depth. You probably skipped or didn't finish the video.
@@hometheatergurus Sorry for coming accross a bit confrontational. was probably tired from staying up too late watching your videos! :) Love them by they way. I'm just about to set up one of our spare spaces as a cinema room and you seem to be the only person answering all the questions that come to mind! I will definately go back and watch the whole video. I suspect that for me, with all the sub level modes being ban in the middle of the room, the solution is to put one sub halfway down the length and one halfway accross the width, but will go back and re-watch the episode to see if I'm right!. Thanks again, really great content. BY the way, is there a metric version of the Harman spreadsheet? I couldnt see an option in the website. No biggie as I can convet feet and inches into m and cm, but just wondered...
No you didn't come off in a bad way. Many of my videos are long and I know myself I'd probably skip as I'm impatient. I miss stuff all the time. Pay attention to the virtual sub discussion in the video.
As for a metric version there are other calculators online but I've never seen a Harmon one in metric.
The main thing I'm confused about is the front baffle wall. If I have a 20' long room and build out the front wall 18" and have all my speakers and subs behind an AT screen do I use 20' or 18'6" in the calculator?
That depends on if the screen wall is a boundary wall or a false wall.
Hi Steve, if I use an AT Screen, mounted let's say mounted on a speaker baffle wall which is 2 feet from the front wall, should I deduct 2 feet from the room length for the calculator? The speaker baffle-wall will be very rigid by mass, made of a layer of cement board sandwiched between 2 layers of plywood. Thanks for your insight in this. Cheers.
I don't believe the Harmon calculator is still available - any other / others you'd recommend?
I can't find it,me either.
Just find it .In harman site ,do a search for room mode calculator ,you should find a xls file to download.
1st
if all modes are excited at the end can't we just put our couches at the back wall?
Good catch. You'll definitely have maximum output but it'll be bloated. You'll also have room modes excited above the subs too. It won't sound accurate and clean. Also we need to get off the back wall a few feet for sbir reasons. See the episode on sbir for that one.
Of course if you want a 7.1 or you want atmos with top rear you need to be off the back wall enough to allow those placement options.
Does this video contradicts the sub crawl method? If we have to place subwoofers as per these measurements, then sub crawl and finding sweet spot of subwoofer location is useless? Please share your views, I am confused.
Check the video after this one, maybe before it. It's been a few years but it specifically discusses this and gives you another option. If a professional you're paying sub crawls, open the door and kick him out! 😁. He's not trained at all and can't even align the subs much less properly place them.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks mate. I am renovating my HT after watching your videos. Lot many things on the list to change
@home theater gurus - Here is my mode calc and I will have a 5.2.4. My thought was one sub at 14 1/4 / 2 3/4 and the other at 16 1/2 / 5 3/4. Or is there an easier way? I am using 11'3" for thx viewing position and I have a couch but will mostly be on the left end (while sitting on it) of it. I don't technically fall into any of the modes from what I can tell, but still be nice to remove the ones I can for other people. i.imgur.com/czI5YZc.png
So there is really no helping my room at 8' H x 15'.8" L and 11'.3" W is there? Frequencies Harmon is showing is really nothing. Room is just too small?
The smaller the room the closer the modes so it is more difficult. But you fix what you can in the sub region and do your best to avoid those you can't fix.
This assumes reflective surfaces w/ standing waves and interference. Use sound absorbing methods and you can throw all that math out the window.
Yes it assumes boundary walls. And absorbtion doesn't eliminate them so you wouldn't throw them out the window. It does reduce modal issues depending on how deep the panel and if you are deep enough and large enough you can get rid of some. We have a series on in room acoustics.
Here's a video of a professional mix engineer that mixes for 5.1 for Sony and other film production companies where he has essentially a room within a room setup where he can move his room into another facility because they don't own the building and they move every so many years, so he can just move his room to another location, So this is another option..
czcams.com/video/J3-psVQLJEc/video.html.
It's a sweet setup because he only NEEDS one large sub woofer in the room and it's a relatively flat response curve with NO peaks and nulls around the room, so he's not using multiple subs to fix a room mode problem….
All rooms have modes. And yes you can absolutely use one sub. I can quickly tell you where to place one sub. The issue is this is home theater where we often have more than one lonely guy sitting in the dark enjoying the system. We need good bass at multiple seats and this is where multiple subs come in. But yes mixing studios don't need multiple subs as the mixing is done at one point.
@@hometheatergurus It seems silly to put more energy into a room to fix a room mode problem. the mix engineer in that video has low frequency treatment against ALL four walls which is designed to go down to 30hz and there aren't any room modes below 30hz in that room. So, he doesn't NEED subs to "fix" a room mode.
It's better to do it with treatment than putting extra energy into a room.
Maybe you simply haven't used the right wall construction or room treatment to absorb effectively down to 30hz.. And maybe you THINK that adding more subs and DSP is the best way to fix the problem..
the engineer only used one sub because he doesn't need anymore than that because it's properly treated, there are no room mode peaks or nulls in practically every position within that room. There's only a slight build up in the very rear of the room, but that's it. Everywhere else it's even and flat, No major peaks or nulls.
So funny
openoffice mang
Why don't you build the walls and ceilings with pressure based absorption to absorb the problem frequencies between the two parallel surfaces (Axial) instead of the method you are using? Placing MORE subwoofers seems like you are just putting MORE energy into the room, when you already have too much energy at those frequencies…
There are pressure based absorption seating platforms available that will absorb low frequency. That's one method to help absorb too much low frequency energy.
It's much cheaper to simply avoid the modes we can and fix what we can't. If you want to see this in action go see ep 7 and the extremely tight seat to seat consistency that absorption will not achieve. You don't have to accept that these are the industry standard practices.. but that doesn't change the fact that they are. Science always wins.
@@hometheatergurus Just because you THINK that it sounds better doesn't mean it does. Go to a room with activated carbon and diaphragmatic absorption, far superior than the crap the industry has been using for 40 years….
The problem is you haven't been in a properly designed room that can give a flat response throughout the room, regardless of the seating position… It can be done, just not with building insulation, dry wall and 2x4 wall construction…. Maybe someday you'll be able to hear a properly designed room that might not need all of the DSP you seem to need.
The video I posted, you can go practically everywhere in that room and it has relatively flat response for the low end.. The mix engineer has walked around the room listening and it's pretty consistent.. Remember, he's mixing for home theaters and he does have clients in that room listening at different listening positions than his mix position..
FYI, the home theater industry has been full of crap ever since the first generation of 5.1. How many speaker companies are pushing middle channels that are placed on the floor, sideways center channel, or put into a shelf? How many people have home theaters where all speakers are the same full range speaker? VERY few…
Just because the industry does something doesn't mean it's right and doesn't mean it's the best sounding. Remember the BOSE 901's? People thought those were great speakers. Home theaters is just a way for speaker mfg's to see more speakers that people put in rooms that aren't designed for audio….
Basically, the industry has been scamming people into home theater for years.
Atmos system for the home? hahahaha. that's the latest joke.
@@Oneness100 we actuality use very little dsp. Maybe one day we can compare your room and mine and I can tell you why mine sound vastly better..
😁. It's science. 🤷♂️.
But seriously not that big of deal. You do you and I'll continue create amazing home theaters people can afford.🤷♂️😁
@@hometheatergurus Whatever…. Go pedal your bullshit to those that are easier manipulated..
@@Oneness100 don't be mad. I don't pedal I teach and help people get better performance from their systems. I don't tell them the way to good bass is with 2' deep carbon filled walls and that sub placement doesn't matter. Yeah I've seen the guy you get this bad information from and who will gladly take your money to the bank on that mess.
Ohh and these practices aren't 40 years old but pretty cutting edge. For example the harmon studies were scientific experiments that resulted in the understanding of modal behavior we now use to place seats and subs. This is all science based and it gets quite advanced. And it's sad you feel atmos is snake oil.
Audio has come a long way since two channel..
You can choose to follow the current science or you can ignore it and get left behind. 🤷♂️
The fact you don't understand and laugh at the idea we can place subs to fix modal issues just shows you're definitely getting left behind.
The other problem is that every room is different and some room dimensions will have MANY Axial modes between front/rear, side/side, floor to ceiling and your're method is to put a sub wherever there's an Axial room mode problem? That's just ridiculous.
It's better to just use pressure based absorption into the walls, ceilings and then use absorption platforms for seating. Also, don't put seats in positions you don't use. How often do you have more than 2 people in the home theater room? Wouldn't it be just as easy to only add seating when you need additional seating and only worry about the seating positions that are actually used 90% of the time..
This is not my idea. This is what is accepted and taught in the industry. If you don't want to fix the modes you're welcome to place subs where ever you wish. The garage. the garden maybe. Whatever works for you.
@@hometheatergurus The industry doesn't seem to have proper low frequency treatment in their rooms, which is why they opt for putting more subs in the room and using DSP to "fix" the problem.. Yeah, It's been like that for a while and it all goes back to poor wall, ceiling construction, etc.
Yeah,, I know someone that gets calls all of the time from people. that had expensive home theaters built 20 30 years ago that have low frequency issues and he has to give them the bad news that their room was not designed to handle the modal problems, so it's pretty much a tear down and rebuild in many cases, but sometimes it just needs some large low frequency absorption devices put in to go after that bottom end rather than futzing around with DSP's or adding yet more subs into the equation..