Ep. 17 - How much power do you need for your Home Theater?
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- čas přidán 13. 11. 2019
- Calculate how power you need to hit your levels in your home theater.
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Kirk: "Scotty, I need more power"
Scotty: How much captain?
Kirk: "Give me everything you've got!"
Man, I love the way you teach.... so damn good.
The bass kick. Love it. I’m convinced it was the speaker upgrade because I couldn’t get there with my old Klipsch speakers. Can wait for that video.
Extremely well explained! Thank you!
Finally understand power requirements for load. Very clear description. Thank you very much!
Very well explained. Thanks for sharing!
Your videos are very informative and the information is very well delivered. You gained a subscriber!
Such a important video first of its kind. Thank you for making 👍🏻🙏🏻
Yeah I'm wearing the same shirt! Life is goooood!
Great episode thanks!
Great video man!
My modest and simple home theater: Onkyo TX-RZ50, 2 Subwoofers Rel T/7x, Center Speaker Dali Opticon Vokal 2, Bookshelf KEF LS550 META , Rockville RS29W Speaker Stand 4 Surround Speakers POLK TL1 . I'm happy with the quality of Sound I have, I don take any measure , but thank' you for your video
Really good stuff to know, stuff that helps you size amp and speaker.
You rock. You have increased by knowledge of HT so much from your videos.
Thanks Gregg! Glad you like them.
Great information Sir👌👍
Nice, learned a lot from this video. Thanks for the time and effort. :)
I ran some napkin calculations.. and I can run reference across the board.
Pretty crazy what higher sensitivity speakers can do.
Looking forward to watching more of your content and learning as I go. :)
Thanks again, have a good day!
Thanks.. Glad you found it helpful!
This channel is reference for people who want to get the most of their quality entertainment lives
Great video! Nothing to add, nothing to remove!
Thanks!
Soo good content!!
Makes me feel better about going with the PSA speakers. at 98db sensitivity they sip on power.
excellent video! this is a very important topic.
I have clipped my receiver due to a lack of adequate power for inefficient speakers (86db heights and 87db surrounds) but that was before I added subs....my fronts were trying to produce bass frequencies so ran short of power. since I added the subs I havent had an issue with it but also I dont listen higher than -10db
Thanks. I started to get into bass management but if you follow the video you'll be fine even running full range as loud levels and inefficient speakers quickly equate to lots of power needed. But of course using subs does lighten the load even more.
It's very easy to run out of power using average sensitivity speakers on an avr. Especially the guys that like to crank it.
The DIY speakers in my theater are insanely sensitive. They hit 100dB easily, it's crazy! My front stage is MTX TP2400s and they need a separate amp to get reference levels. Like you, I don't ever go 0.0dB. But it's nice when 130dB gets pegged (because of subwoofers). It's a good feeling.
FANTASTIC video!!!
Thanks. And yeah good subs can definitely make or break a system.
I hit 90.4dB with my unfinished setup today idk how many watts I was actually using or anything but I was about 5ft away. Ive got the levels of my speakers set to -30 for all surrounds and center and it is still roaring at only 40% volume. I've still got to add a subwoofer or maybe 2 mini subs I haven't decided yet and my overhead speakers.
Please document your new theater build!!🙏🙏🙏
Well done the best explanation for power that I have heard.
great video
Thanks!
very good explained... thank you
Glad it was helpful!
When you say reference, is that when speaker trims are zero, or after calibration? when the receiver volume is set to zero, and then 75 db is measured with trims?
What about power conditioners and battery backup? How do you determine those needs?
Amazing video i have audiocontrol lc 6 1200 provide 125 watts and focal 80 watts @4-ohm impedance what voltages i should keep on my amp gain please help if you know how to calculate because i burn my last speakers thank you thank you
How much power do you need? Yes.
All the power... 😜
MOAR power!
Great video bro you hit every spot I'm needed to learn about. Also can you touch on where you need to install 20amp setting in your home vs basic 15amp.
Thanks. As for the amp question do you mean 15 amp vs 20 amp circuits? If so I haven't thought about it but that would be a good video.
@@hometheatergurus yes that's what I mean. I seen some guys suggesting 30amp circuits. It's all confusing to me now.
@@Eurica76 I'll cover that and have it out in a few weeks. If you wanna know now find your equipments power consumption. It'll be rated in watts or Amps. If it's in watts divide it by 120 and that's the Amps. Then add all the amps up on the circuit. But honestly if you aren't tripping the breaker your OK. But I'll cover it and explain how circuits are run in a house and how to determine if you need to add another circuit and lay it all out in the video.
@@hometheatergurus Oh yeah this would be great too. I am about to start building a new dedicated home cinema and was wondering about the power requirements for all the equipment myself. Some things like pro audio power amps dont say how much power they pull from the wall. They just list the input mains voltage and the power they put out to the speaker. Like for instance a crown XLS for a subwoofer rated at 2x 1350W @ 4ohm ??? I dont think that will draw 2700w from the wall would it ?
@@timoxx4 no the power consumption isn't the same as the watts to the speaker because the amp doesn't output at 120v. The on board transformer changes the voltage and you also have caps that store power for bursts. Sometimes you have to find the manufacturers online data to find the specs. You can also often find 3rd party measurements by searching your avr or amp wirh the words "bench test". For instance Google Crown xls1500 bench test.
Nice illustration and useful information but it's unfortunate you don't account for multiple or all speakers playing in the room simultaneously which significantly adds sound pressure and reduces the required power you show to hit 105dB. Multiple uncorrelated sources add as a sum of the squares. Going from 1 speaker driven to 11 driven in a room can add as much as 10dB total SPL! The peak SPL of 105dB per speaker you reference typically isn't a problem for a really good receiver that has plenty of headroom in the power supply to deliver enough momentary power to hit that # on a moderately sensitive speaker. Anyway good info and separates are the way for the ultimate experience of course ;)
Is that you Gene? 😁
Yeah I just kept it to individual speaker demands at reference or personal levels but you're correct with several speakers peaking at once the spl in the room is far far above 105.
@@hometheatergurus yes it is. THX Ultra2 certification is NOT based on continuous power ratings BTW. They account for crest factors when determining if a receiver can swing enough voltage to hit peak SPL levels with compatible THX certified speakers.
Hello, could you help me calculate how much power I need?
The video explains it very well but it is not clear to me what is the sensitivity of my boxes.
On the web it says 88db 1w / 1m but there is a page where it was measured at 85.5db 2.83v / 1m it is
this 88db 1w / 1m.
From where should I start to count the watts?
My distance is 8 feet, how much do I have to subtract?
Greetings
Great video!
Could you also make a similar video with DIY subs.
Setting up a system with 4 og 8 subs, how to wire, and what watt is needed with different wire options.
Yeah we'll soon designing a living room friendly sized sub in winisd then we'll build it, subscribers will help choose a vinyl wrap and then we'll do compression test to measure it and compare it against subs on data bass. I'll cover wiring, connecting to the Amp and everything else.
Nice shirt, I have the same one 😉
I knew you'd like it!
What if you only have one side wall that has reflections and the other is open to a kitchen?(no side wall)
Hello, could you help me calculate how much power I need?
The video explains it very well but it is not clear to me what is the sensitivity of my boxes.
On the web it says 88db 1w / 1m but there is a page where it was measured at 85.5db 2.83v / 1m it is
this 88db 1w / 1m.
From where should I start to count the watts?
My distance is 8 feet, how much do I have to subtract?
Greetings
Great videos man very informative and well presented. Question: I am trying to decide on a AVR or separates and confused what works best for me. My setup (still in boxes), 2x Paradigm 800f's, 600c, two p80-a's and two svs pb 3000.Thought about going atmos 2 or 4 but no sure as I will have my surrounds on the ceiling's just behind the back seats to the side and read about those not mixing well with nearby atmos. Anyways I started my AVR journey planning on getting the denon 3600, then Anthem mrx540 and now looking at the tonewinner at300/ad7300. My room is 14 feet away from main listening chairs 12 foot wide and left side of room opens another 15 feet approx. I do like loud but not sure what reference levels are because this is new to me. Also enjoy a good party cranky up the tunes. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
15:18
so i guess those 300x2 amps i see aren't overkill
Thanks for the video
I have klipsch RF7 III and RC64 III
They claim 100db sensitivity
The speakers are 4 meters away from my listening position so for one watt at 4m I get 88db, so I need 32w to get 103db at 4m ?
For now I just have those 3 channels (later on I will add surrounds and atmos) on my denon x4500h which delivers 125w for 2 channels driven.
Do you think it’s enough for now or I need more power for headroom ?
You're welcome. You're actually 92db with 1 watt as 4m is roughly 12' so you'll need even less power. I'm getting 16w to hit 104 db. But keep in mind klipsch is known to inflate specs so 32w is a better bet. If 100db is your max levels I'd say you're more than fine.
Home Theater Gurus yes I know they Inflate that’s why I said « claim 100db » haha
Thanks for the quick answer that helps a lot.
I will see later if I add maybe a Crown xls 1502 2x300w class D for only 360€ (400$)
Or an emotiva xpa 3 gen 3 for the front stage but that’s 1500€
@@aladdinjammal I'm a fan of the crowns. Been using an xls 1500 for 5 years on various mains. The fan does kick on and are very audible when they do so be aware. But it's very rare they kick on. I'm guessing the 1502 is the same.
Rf7 is a nice speaker. Good choice!
Home Theater Gurus perfect, thanks from France for the feed back
@@aladdinjammal you're very welcome!
Like you I usually listen at about -15dB sometimes I bring it up to -10dB. So I don’t think I need more power (Speakers are B&W w/90dB sensitivity) as I’m only 10ft away. However I’ve been wanting to make the move to separates because I see many comments on forums claiming their theater sounds so much better. In your opinion does it actually sound better when moving from receiver to separates? Receiver costing in $2500-$3000 range vs something like an anthem avm60 + amp.
It depends on if you're crossing to subs and how far away and loud you listen. Then of course keep in mind the placebo effect is real. Blind test are the only reliable test. Our brains are very powerful and can't be trusted ;).
If you run your speaker large then yes you could hear a difference. If you're using bass management which I suggest I wouldn't personally worry about moving to separates. You should have plenty of headroom from that distance and your levels.
I'd invest the money on real upgrades like room treatments or fixing modal issues.
It is important not to forget, how much sound you loose with an acoustic transparent screen with the additional black layer. Even with the best ones it is a 1,5-2dB loss...
That's a great idea for a video. I've measured my Seymour xd and in the top octaves it was around 1.5db of loss. Not detectable by ear and with pink noise you wouldn't be able to measure a difference more than half a dB at most.
Of course not all screens perform that well.
@@hometheatergurus Does the loss only occur in the top octaves? Nothing in the midrange? Does that 1,5dB of loss only happen with the screen alone or with the black layer combined?
@@mrkajtar you'll begin getting some loss beginning around 500hz but even at the upper frequencies 1.5db isn't that noticeable if at all but yep it is something to understand when calculating power. The larger waves are much less effected by the screen that the smaller upper frequencies. From testing I've done screen material like Seymour XD has no more attenuation than GOM and DMD acoustic fabrics. If course not all screens perform that well but anytime I recommend a screen I stick with what I know works well.
As for the black backing in 12 years of having acoustic screens and building them for others I've never once had to use a lining back there. Paint the wall black or use 1" ultra duct black (which is optimal) and paint the frame black. No need to do anything else. I rarely even hear of people doing that but there are some that do.
Hey, me again and as I said before in my last post, what you do is awesome to me and it gets the point across clearly. I appreciate that. I have a question though, in terms of power consumption, shouldn't this apply to subwoofers as well? If a person is in a 1500 cubic ft home theater, shouldn't they use subs which would accommodate the room as opposed to buying the biggest baddest sub? I was thinking about this and wondering why would a person in a 1500 cubic ft room buy 4 seaton submersives for example. Isnt that uncalled for? What's your opinion on that?
Thanks again! 😁
Subs are different because the frequencies are modal. With subs you size the Amp according to the design during modeling. We will cover this when we get to the really fun stuff and design our own sub in WinISD. I will give you a little info now.. Ported subs use little power down low compared to sealed because of the natural response having more output down low (to tuning) so the room gain is headroom where as sealed can extend really low but has less natural energy down low so it often needs boosting therefore more power.
Now there are tricks to get a ported to extend really low but will require boosting which we'll also cover.
Hi, thanks for the informative video. On the Klipsch RF7-iii with 100db's, is my calc correct of needing 32 watts for reaching 109db's?
Yeah that sounds about right however keep in mind Klipsch rates sensitivity in room not anechoic so they sneakily factor in room gain. They're high sensitivity but not what the specs say.
Does that rule have to start with 3’ or something? I mean, going from 1” to 2” is not a 6 db loss.
Is that a super sound shirt?
Why yes it is!
How about 15' away with speakers that are 88 sensitivity?
3', 6', 12' faraway from where? I'm sorry, I know nothing about this and I'm trying to figure out how many watts an amplifier needs to have to make work 2 speakers of 2000 watts.
Dumb question, but let's say I use 80hz crossover on all my channels...any rule of thumb on how much less power strain on the AVR will be?
It will definitely ease the load on the avr but to stay on the side of caution I would still use the calculations in the video as the same power is needed to hit a specific level at a given frequency.
@@hometheatergurus no
A bit repetitive especially around sound loss topic, but overall good explanation.
You discussed listening at - 15db on the receiver/system stating it as hitting certain spl levels at a given level. However, depending on the source/recording (some movies like ones from Disney etc) are much quieter than others when playing at the same volume level. This led me to believe the level from turning your volume up or down is the gain of the receiver and not directly correlated to absolute spl. Is this incorrect thinking?
Unfortunately you are correct. Studios don't always set levels properly. The thing is we all know by ear what levels we like. So if you know you generally like -15 and throw in something and the vocals are way too quiet at -15 crank it up so it sounds as loud as sounds right to you. You'll be around what -15 should be or at least close enough. It's not an exact science so having headroom is important.
@@hometheatergurus also how does different power amps come into play. I can't imagine a basic denon like the s650h really hits reference at 0 on the volume and have the same spl as my x8500h.
Can you run separates with a ht receiver? How would you hook that up together.
If you have pre outs.. yes you can. RCA outputs to the amps inputs.
Hey man please little helo my room is 5 metres * 3.30m *2m ceiling you believe because the ceiling is low i cant make dedicated room??? Please unswer me mate
I can't even imagine watching most current movies at -15 or -20. I usually watch at around -5 at the lowest. It seems to me you are missing out on significant dynamics at such a low level. Some movies do seem mixed extremely loud and can be overbearing at reference, but others would be impossible to hear whispers and low level dialogue at -15. I would advise everyone to design for reference, with speakers and amps that play cleanly at that level, and then adjust to taste. Many people are using speakers that cannot play cleanly at reference and then it is no wonder they think it sounds too loud.
That's personal taste. I do room plans on the side and very very few of my customers listen louder than - 15. There's also been several polls online that back this up as the norm. What's right for some isn't for everyone. We like what we like.
If your room is properly treated and calibrated you should absolutely have no issues hearing whispers or every detail with great dynamics. If you do you have some issues that need addressing.
Greg Worrel that is your personal listening volume preference. Lot's of others don't listen at those levels so don't need to waste needless money for something irrelevant to them. A little headroom above the levels they listen to is fine.
@@C--A I don't disagree, but volume preferences are often set based on listening to systems that are simply incapable of playing at reference, so they sound like crap anywhere close to reference. We hear distortion as "too loud." Remove the distortion by using speakers and subs designed to play easily at reference, and the added realism and dynamics can be startling.
What about a room that is 10 foot long
Where would I put room treatment with one side of my room open?
Watch the 4 part series on room treatments. I cover your exact predicament and explain why.
@@hometheatergurus Yeah I know that now lol! I should just watch the videos before I ask questions instead of some of the videos. Thanks for your response anyway
How much power? Answer ... ALL!
MOAR!!
Probably alot less than you think. Especially if you have proper bass mgmt.
You don't have to wonder, the video helps you calculate it.
High sensitivity speakers, what's the catch?
Not following the question. Did you watch the video?
@@hometheatergurus Yes of course. Let me rephrase. You speak of the benefits of high sensitivity speakers. What are the downsides? Why do manufacturers choose to produce one or the other?
@@isak6626 many high sensitivity speakers use waveguides and compressions drivers that often aren't well designed with poor off axis but some are very well deigned like jbl M2 and even the 3 series. Waveguides control dispersion but past there limits you lose control. Compare that to a dome that can have great off axis much wider in degrees as there's no waveguide with limited control.
As I mention in the video it depends on goals. Personally if output can be achieved with a dome I'd go that route vs a high sensitivity speaker that uses a waveguide. It comes down to your personal needs.
We will get into off axis more in depth when we cover room treatments.
@@hometheatergurus Thank you. Looking forward to that video!
Don’t amplifiers just run off the power consumption of your outlets and amp service to your house?confused
No power consumption doesn't directly equate to watts out of the amplifier as amplifiers have transformers and caps.
I need atleast 50000 watts per channel 🤣 jk. Great video though. People will mislead and upsell for no reason
How much power? 18 pairs of speakers 2 Subs, 7 dedicated Power Amplifiers and a 9.2 Receiver in a 35x25 Room. That's how much power you need....
Only 2 subwoofers in a gigantic 35ftx25ft room. I presume that they are something like a couple of Monoprice 16 THX Ultra. Or a couple of big 18inch PSA or similar ported subwoofers.
Any chance to do your measurement examples in metric also ? Every CZcamsr from the US expect the metric users to put up with it and do the conversions yourself. So i dont see why you should do that same considering you are from a metric using country ? Or just do everything in metric and make them do the conversion for once lol. :) Other than that these are great videos.
Now you're gonna make me think..haha.
In this video I did covert a meter to 3 feet.. Haha. I'll try and keep that in mind for future episodes.
@@hometheatergurus Haha yeah i did notice that quick 3 feet or 1 meter comment.
The math works the same. Actually using meters is more accurate because a meter is not exactly 3ft
84 - 12 = what? 😅
This guy totally misses the electrical science that is super critical. On integrated (low end; this includes Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, etc) the peaks he speaks of will not be at the level demanded by the audio track because the shared power supplies on integrated amplifiers are embarrassingly lacking in power reserve. Your 7, 9 or 11 channel amplifier only has the power reserve to drive 2 speakers at the RMS Wattage numbers on the specs (read the fine print). So expect your 9x 100W to be more like 9x 25W RMS during difficult scenes. That 25W is not going to deliver clean sound at reference levels or be able to give you enough power to make snappy base on anything greater than like a 5_1/4" driver. There's a reason 2x 100W of a "high end" amplifier takes just as much power (electricity) and weighs more than your receiver. Weight is a good lay man's measure of an amplifier as the transformer weight (technology / science) hasn't changed in years. Class D amplification for your mids and highs are simply not high end.
This is covered in the video, the power supply being the bottle neck, manufacturers rating one or 2 channels driven etc. Sounds like you watched very little of the video.
You are missing a key factor in power supply requirements. Power demands are based on average power level, while maximum output demand is peak output. The crest factor of most home theater content is 12-20dB. That means the peak output is 16 to 100 times the average output. Power supplies only need to handle the average output, not the instantaneous peaks. Most amplifiers are designed with a power supply capable of 1/8 peak output which is more than capable of handling the rated output. That is why manufacturers do not put bigger power supplies in amps. It would be a waste of money.
Also, the whole "all channels driven" comparison often cited by some amplifier manufacturers should be taken with a grain of salt. When are all channels driven to equal output with normal content? I would guess never.
This guy totally missed the whole point of the video which was a simple understanding of power requirements for home theater. Here’s a better question. How do I calculate power requirements for 6 ohm speakers? Ps “electrical science” 😅
This channel is reference for people who want to get the most of their quality entertainment lives