I always play loud music when cleaning the house, there will always be a spot where the bass is really clean and clear, you are really great at explaining things Paul, ROCK ON!!! greetings from the Ph..........
The answer to the problem might be the listening room. To fully assess this issue with bass slam one must take into consideration room dimensions and sonic/acoustic characteristics of the room. So, if Paul’s answer and recommendation is 100% correct, it might not solve the real problem.
Thats what he is reccomending. Finding where the room is either working with or atleast not against what you are looking for. The only other solution to the "real" problem is to build a different room or just hope that bass traps will help, but that still isn't solving the real problem with it. Cause unfortunatly the real problem is physics, hard to change that lol
I used Bass Mekanik-Sonic Overload, to calibrate bass on my active studio monitors and active subwoofer, it has tracks ranging from 1HZ to 80 HZ. It also helped me find vibration/noise spots on around my listening area.
The room is way more critical than most people think. I had a “smallish” ported powered subwoofer that never really sounded very good, it was an underperformer. Then when I got new gear for my listening room, I moved the “small” sub to the garage. Holy hell, putting it in a bigger room woke it up, I was surprised by how much decent output it had compared to my listening room. This summer, I’m making my listening room bigger (partially finished basement) by adding about another 200 square feet.
Same experience here. Same set of active speakers sound way bigger and "heavier" in 50 m2 living room compared to smaller 12 m2 room. Room (size), placement and acoustics are at least 40% responsible for your sound.
Mr Paul I think you hit the nail on the head for me on this issue and answered a question I’ve had til now. I have 2 small Home Theaters ( 10’ x11’ ) with identical Speakers in both. Martin Logan Motion 12s front and motion 4s rear surrounds., motion 8 center. The first first room includes 2 Martin Logan 1000 Subwoofers where I felt that visceral chest slam with a an explosion. Later I tried it in the other room where I placed 2 recently purchased SVS NSB-12 Subwoofers with similar power and size. I did not get the same visceral chest slam as with the Martin Logan Subs. I contacted SVS and got some suggestions but nothing worked. With this video I suddenly realized that with the Martin Logan’s I had been sitting about 1 1/2 to 2 ft closer due to a Smaller TV Screen. 40” vs 60”. So distance does matter. Thank you for this insight. 👍
Each is important, the sub has to be time aligned with the mains and the god of room modes must be appeased. It is a major endeavor to acoustically treat room modes in a standard room, so your next option is to figure out the best way to get the least damaged bass spot in the room to be the same place you sit.
Yes and no. Some subwoofers just suck. I’ve had SVS subwoofers in my room and they have no snap/punch/slam to them. Tried every setting every placement. Then I bought a JTR And that sub can be literally anywhere in the room and it’s like a jackhammer to the chest, even at low volumes. The transients are real. I still don’t understand how to account for the difference.
I replaced my Thiel CS 2.4's for Magnepan LRS. I am amazed at how much slam and solid mid bass they have. They dont extend deep, but what they do give is amazing. After owning magnepans, I dont think I can go back to a conventional speaker set up. Maybe a ribbon tweeter/midrange speaker, but I dont think I could own full cone speakers ever again.
Very informative video Paul!! I love good punchiness in my music and it's really hard sometimes to set the speakers in a room for a perfect acoustic atmosphere.
To me bass slam is the combination of low frequency energy and adequate phase alignment of all the overtones, especially in the early transient stage. I tend to think that the less there are things in the way of the overall signal or messing up the impulsional coherence, the better the bass slam will be. Therefore, I believe the following will favor bass slam: - full valve amp (yes, a too high damping factor is not your friend for it could overdampen some types of speakers) - as little as possible crossover components on the woofer (one small enough inductance value to tame the midrange peak, taking into account the woofer's raising impedance slope) - open baffle or sealed enclosure, or any other design that is extremely well tuned in terms of phase coherence and clean impulsional response - no subwoofer, or crossed over below max. 70 Hz just to add infra bass AND properly phase aligned AND properly placed. Many things can go wrong here. - speaker placement - also vertically : very often subwoofers are tucked somewhere on the ground, where they would significantly benefit from vertical placement at 1/4th to 1/3rd floor to ceiling distance, from the floor or ceiling. Same applies for side walls. From rear wall minimum distance in order to avoid comb filtering in the low end register, except perhaps if this helps getting rid of an ugly resonating frequency bump somewhere. - listener placement (yes, low frequency response changes a lot depending where you are, with knots and bellies just like standing waves)
I've never been adequately slammed by anything less than a 10" woofer! And, I've never heard multiple small woofers sound as good as one 10, 12, or 15" woofer. It's as simple as that. The ONLY reason designers use multiple small woofers is to make cabinets narrower and more appealing to people who don't want to see speakers. (well... they image better too). I've owned really great speakers with dual 7's, dual 8's, and Quad 6.5's! And NONE of them proved satisfying in the mid-bass SLAM department. I've still got my 30yr old B&W 801-S2's with 12" woofers, and they slam! So do my 15" Tannoys. These speakers have been satisfying me for over 20 years, despite my efforts to replace them. Even my little ZU Dirty Weekends have slam, and are very satisfying for only $1k. (they have a 10" driver).
My system (Mini Utopias with twin Rel Stadium IIIs) went from good to "wow" when I added a 2nd sub to properly "load the room". Besides all the good advice from Paul advice about placement and the room (the room acoustics is 90% of it), this has been the biggest jump in bass performance.
I find I get the best loading or coupling of the single sub to be near a corner for less standing wave issues. I have my Quad L sub crossed over at 30Hz and under which is the 3db down point of the Quad 22L main speakers. Where do you have the twin subs located? Rooms, especially small rooms are the biggest challenge for bass smoothness. DSP or EQ can only fix part of the room, but make it worse in other locations. Proper location of all the drivers is the trick for each room, reflections of sound waves, etc.. 90% the rooms fault, agreed.
@@zulumax1 both of my subs are about 1 ft from the back corners and sides, about 2 feet behind the speakers. These are Rels so they integrate well and can appear to be seamless. That said, my setup (where the subs are placed) is what is best for my room layout, which is heavily dampened... everyone's room is different. It took me several years to actually arrive/achieve this optimization. Though the bass is considered monophonic, I find that stereo subs definitely sounds better.
@@technoxtreme178 I agree. Some recordings have the bass in one channel, deep drums in the other, & so on. This still helps with, `directionality,' as much as it can!
@@technoxtreme178 I don’t care for stereo subs. If you’re noticing directionality, your crossover is too high IMHO. Most people run 30-80 or even 100 Hz. That’s WAY too high. Cut both in half. 15-50 Hz is far better.
Good advice for any speaker. But Paul is trying hard not to say you really need different speakers. For bass slam, you really need speakers that can move alot of air with large, but fast and accurate woofers in that critical mid-bass. Check out Legacy Audio.
Dantax A/S are among the best in Danish speaker building. Their Raidho line is excellent. The combination with a single very old REL (pre-takover design) nevertheless confuses me. Not a match in character and simply cannot keep up with a messy endresult. If it is not the set-up or room, consider adding 2 subs that are a match.
The thing i found is you have to get in a comfort zone, i have a blue aura v40 amp, kef cube sub, and mission speakers! I went through my artist collection, i love bass, so from moby, why does my heart for heavy bass , to t. Rex, and 60s artists lighter bass, with the top high notes not being drowned out. I think my setup with the sub crossover just under 80htz i am very happy, as if you have a 60s song, with little bass and you give it a load of bass from the sub, then play the moby track again the bass is over the top, so thats why i went for the bassist song and set the sub for that, and remember all recordings a different some are bad and some superb!
What does "slam" mean? Well, typically it's the frequencies between 55-85 Hz, or at least that range gives you a chesty, tactile feeling (and your sofa vibrates with it too:) . You can absolutely high-cut a subwoofer at (let's say) 90hz to get that. The BIGGER PROBLEM is typically the room you're listening in. In my space, for example, putting a Sub at the frot wall (where the speakers are) resulted in a lot of lower bass (30-50Hz range) but little "slam" mid bass at my listening position. A good solution is to place your Sub near your listening position (just behind if possible). That made the "slam" so much more tactile. Oh, and you might want to EQ the peaks of bass in your room; believe me, hitting a room mode while listening rips you right our of the experience (it does me, at least).
Percussion, more specifically drums, lays across such a huge frequency range you have to find the "attack" and "punch" frequencies in the 100s and up frequency range. Really aggressive music even gets up into the kilohertz range when mixing drums. The easiest way to address slam, attack or whatever is to make sure that your system can hit those ranges evenly with a frequency pass test, and then check with dynamic and multiple instrument tracks to see if the room is too boom-y with overlapping lower/lower mid frequencies muddying up the sound.
Sealed box speakers tend to have a better transient response than ported ones and if your gonna use a sub anyway sealed for the main speakers is the way to go. Also sealed designs are less fussy about placement and tend not to excite room modes as much.
@@chrisgoodson9312 Yes, right. Speakers extending the frequency response through tricks like passive radiators might give out more bass but it’s with poor impulse response performance.
@@ThinkingBetter Ported systems are not much better. Air has mass to it as well, you can not change the laws of physics. At the tuned frequency there is a resonance of air built up in the port and it will ring after the input energy stops. Poor attack and decay. There will also be a upper harmonic node at the port each octave above the tuned frequency, decreasing with each octave increase. Sealed is better, but you have to deal with the stored energy trapped inside the enclosure. Damping material inside the box creates friction with the moving air turning the stored energy to heat. Still a lot of energy bounces around and finds its way out the cone or vibrations of the enclosure itself coupling the the air. For fast attack and decay or "slam" the best speaker for that is a dipole design, or H design, open or flat baffle woofers or sub. That is just my experience and opinion of course.
@@zulumax1 Yes, agree. I don’t like ported designs. My preference is closed subs. In my home office where I am right now I run a Velodyne servo closed box subwoofer with a miniDSP cross-over getting me an excellent impulse and frequency response. One essential metric of a subwoofer is that it doesn’t produce any harmonics that make you aware of its location. In fact, I’ve asked several people about locating my sub in this room and nobody has succeeded. They turn to the side speakers claiming they make the sub bass.
i agree, the room had a lot to do with this, i have a special spot i move my chair too when i wish to have my liver kicked by drums :) that snappy high bass note is brutal when you feel it and it is loud. the bigger the speaker the lover the volume you feel it. i am talking about something that happens in the 120 hz to 200hz range, so many people with subwoofer never experienced. its all about cone area since passive radiator and ports dont work up high. 15" subwoofer can do it in small rooms and set to at least 120hz and slow roll off filter. cheapest way to get this to work is sealed subwoofers and small sealed bookshelf speakers. if you have large main speakers then crossing over the subwoofer up high most likely will cause a mess, or if any of the cabinets in the system is ported.
Hi Paul, I was experiencing a similar issue despite my gear being well specified in a well designed and built room. There was a vague and loose bass, cured by relocation of both subs to 2M away from side walls and running Anthem/Paradigm PBK in the subs. Transformed completely so you can now feel bass waves, subs are Paradigm Sub25 with 3Kw driving 15 inches. That's RMS power too! The equivalent DSP can be found in SVS as a separate box for 2 subs probably only second hand now. Should do the trick. Cheers Bruce from Adelaide Australia!
@@brucemibus9523 I've left a few other comments about my thoughts on Loudness, esp the old amps that had caps wired across the volume control, I get into them and disconnect where there is no off button
@@doctorrobin3040yes. Paul said to use the high level inputs is the sub the use the outputs of the subs to go to the main speakers. Get more of a full range effect and can indeed provide the mid bass slam one may be looking for. Best method is to have large main speakers though. Bookshelf speakers won’t do it.
@@graxjpg I should have clarified my point. When I said best to get floor standing speakers I meant to add for overall sound presence. Yes you can get the bass slam with 2 subs but that’s now overkill in relation to 2 book shelfs. You won’t get the mid bass hard hitting drum kick with this type is set up normally. Are you recommending 2 8 inch subs in a relatively small room? If yes okay maybe but not in large with 2 12 in subs assuming matching pair. The deeper bass would be overpowering and you may have nice vocals but the mid bass kick would be missing. It’s all preference though.
Hopefully your chosen subs and main speakers is a good match to your current listening room to achieve the bass slam that you desire given that low frequencies tend to be room fussy.
Easy fix; 1.) Don't sit at room's midpoint front-to-back... big nulls exist there. Try 38% point off front wall ... if possible. 2.) SBIR For ideal "slam" acoustic coupling, the loudspeakers need to be within 2 feet (60cm) of the front wall. Or keep the sub within 2 feet (60cm) and place the mains well out past 4 feet (120cm). It's all about avoiding destructive interference.
Hi there, Paul. I like all of your videos since you explain things in very easy terms to understand, particularly, for a newbie, like myself, and which has led me to start building my system from scratch. One of the things I'm planning to build is a Transmission Line enclosure. Got a question - let's say my target frequency were 35Hz using a driver with a frequency response of 44Hz - 22000Hz. So, 35Hz is below 44Hz. Will my T-Line enclosure be able to hit the target? Or I do I need to set a new target at a point no lower than the one part of the driver's frequency response? Regards and, please, never stop making videos.
I think that what Paul is saying, in that the good, wide midrange is responsible for the leading edge, initial, `attack,' of the frequency range in question. Because the larger, relatively, `heavier,' woofer cone can't react as quickly. Part of even a large, double bass is the plucking of the strings, the range of the bass cabinet vibrations, upper overtones of the musician playing which a revealing system should also reproduce. Many years ago, I had a pair of, I think it was the Koss Electrostatic headphones, and for the first time, at the beginning of, "Washington Square," the hit record by The Village Stompers, I could hear the banjo strings being plucked! As for, `punchiness,' the Klipsch subs, 12" & 15" speakers, have a definite, extra, `punch,' which is probably an exaggeration, but which I also enjoy! So, there!
This is a topic which I have discussed so many times and believe me instead of all this lecture I can tell you something completely different. Your choice of using speakers with subwoofers is definitely a good thought but you can never get the slam or bang if you dont have the lfe. Now how to get balanced sound from lfe while listening to stereo sound or 2..1 or 2.2 is definitely not easy but if the settings are correct you get that perfect base and you may feel as if the subwoofers dont exist as the sound is so perfect .
We love bass and our speakers of choice for this are Cerwin Vegas. Pretty much anywhere we put them in the room we get the Bass Slam. We don't use subwoofers just loud speakers. We have a pair of CVs in our living room, basement and bedroom. Living room and basement have models with 15" drivers and bedroom has a model with 12" drivers. We are soo happy with these speakers.
Good response, Paul. Gotta' say the Raidho d3 speakers with 3 4.5-inch woofers IMO is rather sad from a bass perspective. Not quite sure why one would make them nor why one would by them for this exact reason. Achieving a musical bass is tough enough as it is. Trying to get a musical bass from the D3's is probably like tying both arms and one leg behind your back and then challenge you to a game of tennis. Not saying it's impossible but pretty close. Finding THE superior speaker placement within a given room is absolutely paramount toward achieving this type of bass. However, I disagree with your assessment of the subwoofer's abilitiies. I'm no fan of REL subs but after giving up on my full-range speakers, I purchased a Rhythmik 15" subwoofer and immediately placed in a "suitable" location. Lucky for me the Rhythmik has about 10 toggle-switches and knobs to play with and after a really really embarrassingly long time, I was finally able to achieve that magical bass. Never moved the subwoofer 1mm nor the speakers to make this happen. Once the subwoofer crossed over to the promised land, I was able to continue fine-tuning the bass here and there which included moving the full-range speakers a bit but still not the sub. Here's a small sample of the bass I'm trying to describe and the slam as you put is primarily coming from the subwoofer. czcams.com/video/-dgoYYwkJVA/video.html The visual effects of the bass should help if the listener's earbuds/headphones don't.
In all this not much was mentioned about the room. If your asking for slam out of smallish speakers relative to the room than your not getting much slam. This person obviously has top notch gear. This just further illustrates how important a room interacts with a system. You can even have big bucks systems and still not live up what your wanting for sound. Again the room is one of the most important components in a system.
Time alignment. If the arrivals from the sub and main speakers arrive at different times there will be no impact. Needs measurement and delay to get it right.
That wouldn’t have been my solution, but it’s nice to hear a professional perspective. Unfortunately, it digs into the double-edged sword of using multiple drivers. Less: crossover and phase are almost a non-issue. More: each driver can specialize in its own band. Personally, I find it easier to run a 4-way setup. Subwoofer, midbass, midrange, and tweeter. Maybe even adding a woofer for 5-way. Many high-end companies claim to offer full-range 3-ways, but their crossover points are far from ideal and they often have no low end extension. You’ve got to mix and match a little. I’d find another driver pair and place them under your current stereo cabinets. Bandpass them around 60-100 Hz. Place your subwoofer IN YOUR CHAIR, then walk around the room to find where it has a good fill. Move it to that location. Retune the entire system for time and phase.
What would be some good tracks to listen for this? Nothing esoteric but something I might have in my 80K track library focused on rock, pop, jazz, rap and alternative. I'll start, many red hot chili peppers song and Flea's slapping bass, say on songs Californication or The Getaway track. Stevie wonder superstion?
These tracks have some sick low end to it. czcams.com/video/321wvG_sgnI/video.html&ab_channel=TruThoughtsJukeBox czcams.com/video/QN1YjiSuKO0/video.html&ab_channel=IAMNOBODI-Topic
I think the "bass slam" is a bad way to describe it, even though its part of the audiophile lexicon. Better would be tight bass, but I digress. However, its a good point in saying it does require a larger frequency range than what the sub would normally handle to get good transient response. A good sub should have onboard DSP that's capable of band-limiting the audio but still provide a reasonable ability to allow the amplifier to slew fast enough so the bass isn't mushy. If the sub just has a standard linear amplifier with passive filter network, it could roll the response off too early. Even my inexpensive Polk sub is quite sophisticated with an onboard microcontroller and dedicated DSP chip to handle the audio.
If you're going to discuss "slam" you need to define it. If I'm behind the desk and the producer says the bass/kick or whatever needs more punch, I'm reaching for maybe 60 -80hz depending...if he wants more snap or definition I'm reaching for 2-4khz depending on what it is... What FREQUENCY am I tweaking for "SLAM" ??? Btw- for "slam" I prefer 2 sealed single 18's running on 2kw each....jus sayin DIY for the win...peace
Something we learn on the PA side of audio is that impulse response coherency is a result of phase coherence. Eq actually shifts things more out of phase. Digital eq less so than analogue typically though. Many PA designs are now based more around phase accuracy than eq accuracy for that very reason. We can fix eq with less phase shift after the act better than we can in the build process. If everything is as phase accurate as humanly possible the resultant "slam" and actually intelligibility of the entire system is mad improved. That is why we spend so much time dealing with sub to mid/high phase in PA set ups these days.
Slam? Or maybe just IMPACT! I'm saying it's impact. In either interpretation like Paul said the distance from the energy source is critical but because each frequency has a different wavelength it's impossible to be in the right place for all of them. However something that must be accounted for is two things for sure. Rigidity of the listening area, meaning everything can't be soft. Two the amount of the atmosphere your transducer's can excite relative to your listening area. I.e. big soft room and small speakers with small power not good Small rigid room and big speakers with adequate power hold on!
@@petersouthernboy6327 Slam comes from mid bass COHERENCY. We call it a cross over because the frequency spectrums overlap. That is why the phase relation (relative phase) of the sub affects "slam". If it is not phase coherent in the mid bass band you will not have "slam". It is that simple. I never argued against that however the notion that only the mid-bass drivers in a sound system affect that in practice is pretty well a false notion especially in home audio where crossovers to subs are more commonly 6 and 12 db/oct slopes rather than 24 or 48. It should also be known that crossovers being a type of eq also shift phase creating incoherence and the reason critical listening designed systems use shallower slopes is for the purpose of retaining maximum phase accuracy.
Exactly. Typical small mid bass drivers can’t produce slam and subwoofer won’t help. You understand this when you hear some quality speakers with large front firing bass driver producing the bass from 50-350 Hz or so. Narrow columns with side firing bass just don’t produce slam. Try JBL synthesis speakers or similar with large front firing woofer and you will understand.
I was going through the same thing, no punch on songs like “Psycho Killer”, flipped the phase switch and boom, clear, punchy, well defined, etc. As supposed to “muddy”
It does happen that things are 180 deg phase reversed and that is where the "phase switch" which is more accurately a polarity switch comes into play. The problem is when something is say 75 deg out of phase. You then need to consider whether the problem is a temporal (time based) issue in that a delay in the signal can cause this. We call it phase shift or if it is in time but phase angle shifted. Commonly subwoofers come with a variable phase angle control but that is not a time control (delay). With that control you could shift the phase angle to match at a given frequency but still remain out of time which will increase your coherency but still not achieve closer to lifelike impact. I say closer because actually we aren't capable of exact yet.
Tried that but it didn’t work for me. I think it’s a combination of the shape of the room that my system is in and the fact that Magis really do not have the best midbass in the marketplace and that’s a known fact. I’m sure that replacing the wiring would make a substantial difference but that’s a major job that I do not want to undertake.
Hearing songs is a rather hard way of tuning things. Connect your smartphone and output some tones using an app like Frequency Generator. Go through the frequencies that bother you and make sure they sound more or less even at and around the listening position. This way you know exactly where you are and are actually tuning it for your ear. Play your songs afterwards and tune more. Don't forget to toggle the speakers speakers in and out one by one and together as well to detect phase issues.
If you flip a phase switch and everything is fine doesn't that mean one of you speaker cables was connected wrong? (no disrespect...just asking...amateur here)...thanks.
Hi Paul. Which speaker cabinet works best for slam bass? My personal opinion is that enclosed speaker cabinets offer superior slam bass like the 1970 and 1980 era monitor style enclosed speakers. What do you think?
Horns are best. Then comes pipes and after that closed boxes. Vented boxes do not cut it. Large speakers elements with heavy magnets helps. In my experience.
@@tomashjalmarson8177 Well, I tend to like music where the output of the amp defines the waveform that my eardrums follow as much as possible. Speakers that add resonant decay or rooms that add multi-path to the sound waves are not producing the most pure signal as what was in the recording.
I still have your 200c Amp. I paired that with an Audio Research SP-9 preamp and I loved it. I haven’t plugged it in for 15 years. Any advice if I try to?
Large filter caps should be reformed perhaps, they will reform on their own, but there is a large current surge going into some 15 year old electrolytic capacitors. A gentle reform by a qualified repair person might be good advice if you want longer life out of them.
@@gchristopherklug Had to do some research on this amp. I don't think this amp has a slow start feature. There are two 10,000 uf capacitors in the main power supply which need to charge and reform. Capacitors keep their chemical state of equilibrium, or form for probably 2 to 5 years without being powered up. Considering the rated life expectancy is 20 years on these, you are on borrowed time. If you want to make it reliable they should be replaced. My experience is the large value caps don't fail as often as the smaller ones on the circuit board, so your are taking a gamble plugging it in after a long storage period. If it were me I would do a visual inspection of the inside and bring it up with a variac slow with a light bulb in series. Check for DC on the speaker outputs with a multi-meter before connecting speakers. Don't know if you are able to do this yourself.
You can only achieve good impressive ( dynamic !) bass slam is to have a really good mid bass coupler ... I personally don't think Raidho speakers go in for this unfortunately... your best choice is to sell the Raidho's and use speakers ( or build your own ... if you have access to test gear ) and use a really good mid bass coupler(s) .. usually high power 8 inch or 10 inch drivers not intended for sub woofer use
If you really want to get slammed. get a GSG Audio Devastator that has a 21" pro audio subwoofer in a 6th order horn loaded band pass subwoofer. You can buy them prebuilt from there. Normally you have to build your own cabinets.
You're not going to get that kind of bass unless your speakers can go down to at least 35hz before they start rolling off. You have to do a Bass frequency sweep to see where the peaks versus dips are. Once you peq and flatten the curves, then peq for your bass slam to your liking. Adjusting your bass to the room resonance works well. Usually falls between 30-50hz. Room resonance equals free bass slam using hardly any power.
@@tothemax324 it’s pretty obvious to most music fans that those are definitely early samples. I don’t remember if it was a fairlight, synclavier or what.
That bass slam is generated around 60Hz and to get that you have to use pro audio subwoofer drivers. Pro audio drivers are far more efficient at generating these frequencies than a subwoofer. I recommend (2) 15 or 18" subs ported and run them off a Behringer NX3000D amplifier and you will have Bass slam for days!
He probably has a bass suck out, or frequency cancelations. I’ve experienced this problem. Tried my (at that time), tannoy arundels (15” dual concentrics)...electronics used were Classe’ preamp, and 300 watt per channel Classe’ amps...linn sondeck turntable... No matter where I put them in that room, and I’m talking about all the walls were tried. And different distances from all the walls...no luck, the sound was thin and anaemic. All has to do with room dimensions, and frequency cancellations. Some rooms are impossible to work with...✌️😎
Yeea, raidho has plenty of bass but with a lot’s of air... Here in Denmark they goes for the top system on every hifi shows... I think the problem is we all don’t think what good bas sounds like...!!
question. I keep hearing about this Slam bass I assume that is impact bass when talking about Denon AH - D2000's. can anyone assist me in understanding this?
Scotty, what brand of open baffle subs do you have? I’m asking because I have Spatial Audio speakers and debated whether or not I should buy an open baffle sub to compliment the Spatials. I like the looks of the “Lii 15 bass baffle” I saw on the caintuckaudio.com website. Thanks
@@DBTAudio check out the tactile response thread on avs forum. Lots of guys build their own setups. I’m using jbl12’s like most the guys in there. www.avsforum.com/threads/the-tactile-response-thread-for-bass.3081780/page-308#post-60367985
Believe it or not, Magnepans have great slam. Just the same, I’d look at Klipsch Heritage speakers. The Heresy does slam. I’ve heard that the little Elac Reference does too. Tektons all have it. So do SVS Ultras. There are trade offs involved though. I try to count my blessings and be happy with what I have. I’m happy with my Buchardts
The only way I can get real slim out of my Maggie 3.6 hours is if the source material has been done just right and that is rare. Since you are getting great slam with Maggie’s I’d like some suggestions.
@@stimpy1226 I’m not personally familiar with the 3.6, but my 1.7i do fine in my ~230sq/ft L-shape listening room. Do you have some space behind your Maggies? Doing napkin math, I’m using maybe ~8WPC for a listening level that’s plenty loud enough for me. I haven’t noticed much of a difference between amplifiers, and I’ve used anything from 40WPC tubes to 300WPC SS. Currently using a used Cambridge Audio CXA80. I use Spotify Premium (320kbps) and sometimes Qobuz or Tidal, but I don’t hear a difference anyway. How about you? I should mention that I previously had 1.6QR and always thought I was missing something. Replacing them with the 1.7i was HUGE in terms of dynamic range and impact (slam). I assume my 1.6QR were a bit worn out, and also older technology.
@@EliasTheHunter my Magis are over 4 foot away from the front wall so I don’t think that’s the problem but it is a large open area not like my former residence which was designed to be a listening room. My power amp is 100 W per channel audio research which I would like to buy a second and flip the bridge switch to mono because I think it needs more power in the 200 Hz region. I do have certain recordings that sound really great in this region with good control by the amp over the planer magnetic panel.
@@stimpy1226 I would be surprised if you actually need more power, but if that’s the route you’re interested in pursuing, then go for it! If it’s a specific frequency that’s lacking, maybe look into DSP? I edited my previous reply to include my thoughts on 1.6QR to 1.7i. That may be relevant given the age (and technology) of your 3.6.
Although everything that Paul said is correct, there is more to the equation. Most recordings have sub par sound quality. The yahoos at the studios equalize, compress, and suck the life out of otherwise high-energy, dynamic recordings. So you can have amazing stereo equipment, professionally set-up, in a treated room, and still not get "slam", because it is simply not in the recording. Some people compensate for lifeless recordings with their own tone controls, etc (something you will not normally find on higher end equipment). And although that can artificially add slam to recordings, it will sound contrived (because it is contrived). Sadly, if it is not in the recording (and few recordings actually have slam), then you are $h!t out of luck. It has to be in the recording for you to be able to reproduce it in your listening room. "Jazz Variants", track #11, has some good slam here and there (especially at around the 7:50 time mark): us.7digital.com/artist/o-zone-percussion-group/release/o-zone-percussion-group-bamba-la-1682469 So before you wear yourself out, trying to fix your stereo, be certain that you are playing a song that actually has slam. There are countless great songs that should have slam, but do not, due to the butchering job done at the studios (they compress the dynamics so that the song will sound good over the PA system in the shopping mall). So trying to get those songs to reproduce slam in your home is impossible, because the slam was sucked out of the song in the studio. If anyone can suggest any songs that have slam, I (and probably others) would be interested in your recommendations. User: "buckzx12r " recommended Thriller. That is a decent sounding recording, for the pop genre. But my opinion of it is that, although it is better sounding than most rock, pop, and disco type songs, it is still lacking in fidelity, and I do not recall it having slam. The right vinyl pressing will beat the CD (assuming a good turntable with all of the tone-arm and cartridge vectors professionally dialed in). But those pressings mostly suck. The few vinyl gems, that beat the CD, are hard to find. Lastly, if you want to exercise your woofers, this album will go lower than most speakers will go: www.amazon.com/Greatest-Funkin-Hits-PROFESSORS-FUNK/dp/B00080Z63I/ All of the songs have deep bass, especially: "Baby Got Back" and "Hard Times" If your room is not large enough, there will be notes that go unnoticed Note that the songs are not original. But the sound quality is between average to very good (most people will think it is perfect, but I am very critical). I am recommending it simply for the deep notes. Cheers!
Great port designs and well made woofers along with good efficiency can still produce fantastic bass slam while keeping good extension, at least for speakers. For subwoofers, I'd say sealed is always better. Some of the best slam I've heard came from a 6 in old focal midwoofer inside an overbuilt cabinet with minimal damping. I'm currently rebuilding the same speakers with a slightly different design.
Get Cerwin vega speakers they provide the best bass I have heard, they will put you back in your chair and it’s good sounding bass not slow or lousy, fast and accurate. Otherwise keep on spending money on smaller driver speakers and on subs. Tried it never got satisfied.
I've had speakers without, `slam,' which I enjoyed for years: `Medium sized,' good sized but not huge, Warfedale's with a 15" woofer, 3 way, sealed, excellent deep extended bass, though simply accurate, no exaggerated `punch' or `slam,' as the Klipsch 12" woofers have, today, that I enjoy, but isn't this a form of distortion, nevertheless, even if we like this? {`Terrible, not completely accurate! Ha!'} Today, the Klipsch 12" Woofers have this, `punch' (So did, Jim Jones!), but their smaller 10 inchers, don't. In the same sized cabinet, Warfedale also had a 4 way, with much better mid range definition, but less bass in it's 10" speaker. Buy both, stack `em! Both Warfedales did have a cheap, noisy crossover, when carefully positioned, sounded, `O. K.!)
Well to be completely honest I never hear something good out of the Raidho. The low bass isnt there and mid bass is simply bad. And as people here said it right, its about impulse response. You can have good bass slam from subwoofer (I have 13" Focal). But its about connection with your main speakers. You need to have good speaker placement, then do time alignment and then phase alignment. And for that you need DSP and measurements. But good acoustics is really needed! No DSP can fix acoustics problems like treatment can.
Yes, but bass slam is ruined by poor impulse response when the attack and decay are not following the audio signal making the bass boomy and a bad subwoofer can make it worse.
@@oleksiifilippov68 Yes, Rel T7i is a good sub. Bass slam has to do with timing and phase more than frequency response. To make the high frequencies of a kick drum to match the low frequencies in the time domain, most critical is that the bass is not muddy with poor decay. A closed woofer/subwoofer is better for this.
@@oleksiifilippov68 It depends the sort of music you listen to. I love music that involves my subwoofers and especially with bass slam of higher frequency harmonics. Some kick drums or electronic music can do this well.
80% of what you hear is the room, 15% is speaker position, 5% is gear. So yes, move the speakers. Or better yet, fix the room. You can't feel hard impulses if the room is a big wobbly mess of air acting like a block of Jello. Bass traps drain the energy out of the room, and let you feel the impulses coming from the drivers. And of course, you still can't feel them if you are sitting in a null zone, which is why Paul told him to move the speakers.
What kind of response were you hoping for? Throw everything out and start over? He said it's good gear, his problem most likely lies within the setup and placement. Most of us try and dance a line between looks and functionality, somewhere in there is the optimum placement for any given room. Maybe he has approached it from a gear issue instead of placement issue, in which case this advise could be incredibly useful.
@@DF-et4gs I don't know. How about running the device outputs through an analogue crossover system, like a dbx 360, before the sound hits the speakers, and adjusting the crossover slopes and/or phase and/or polarity, OR similarly situated software. But hey, I'm not the expert. Carl
Yeah lots of people make that mistake and go all in on the sub side thinking all the bass comes from there, when it really doesn't. They miss out on the mid bass because the subs are crossed too low, not efficient enough in that mid bass range, wrong type of enclosure, and a lot of the time, the main speakers aren't in a good place in the room vs the seating position. All rooms have room "modes" front to back / left to right and up/down that are bands of good / bad spots for certain frequencies where the out of phase soundwaves either cancel out or add to the same frequency either creating nulls or peaks in the response. You can tweak this slightly with delay settings, but realistically room treatments, distance from front flange of speaker to walls, seating position, etc all make a difference. Getting tons of bass is easy, but getting "good" bass is hard without some work. Either need large mains or midbass cabinets with highly efficient woofers to handle that frequency range. having a huge sub and small mains or mains with weak bass is always a recipe for having a huge gap in midbass frequency response. That coupled with everything else really compounds it
@@Cryptic1911 il copy my original post: the room had a lot to do with this, i have a special spot i move my chair too when i wish to have my liver kicked by drums :) that snappy high bass note is brutal when you feel it and it is loud. the bigger the speaker the lover the volume you feel it. i am talking about something that happens in the 120 hz to 200hz range, so many people with subwoofer never experienced. its all about cone area since passive radiator and ports dont work up high. 15" subwoofer can do it in small rooms and set to at least 120hz and slow roll off filter. cheapest way to get this to work is sealed subwoofers and small sealed bookshelf speakers. if you have large main speakers then crossing over the subwoofer up high most likely will cause a mess, or if any of the cabinets in the system is ported.
I complemented little active desk speakers with a cheap 10" Tannoy mx10Sub. Slam and wall shaking I got but not in a good, controlled and detailed way. Some people might enjoy that and consider that a "fun bass boost". The sub didn't really dive under 40/45 Hz. I think what most people consider "slam"is actually and increased/elevated upper bass boost, which is nothing more than an accumulation of certain bass frequencies killing balance and detail. To get more slam you could try to get an equalizer involved. But if the drivers aren't capable you might need to consider different hardware.
Hands down, folded horn systems are the best of any speaker design that will generally produce slam via direct room coupling, right in the frequencies where "slam" lives. That's been my experience at least. Unfortunately, the rest of what happens with horn loaded systems occurs as well. Somehow Klipsch has been able to create mind-boggling, visceral slam with their ported box designs. I don't know how they do it. Since their legacy is with folded horns and some sealed designs like the Hersey, most of the mainstays in the line are ported.The R7 tower speakers are insanely great in this regard. But also a lot of open baffle, line array designs are pretty much the best for real-life transient punch.
I always play loud music when cleaning the house, there will always be a spot where the bass is really clean and clear, you are really great at explaining things Paul, ROCK ON!!! greetings from the Ph..........
Excellent explanation and advice. Thanks Paul.
The answer to the problem might be the listening room. To fully assess this issue with bass slam one must take into consideration room dimensions and sonic/acoustic characteristics of the room. So, if Paul’s answer and recommendation is 100% correct, it might not solve the real problem.
Thats what he is reccomending. Finding where the room is either working with or atleast not against what you are looking for. The only other solution to the "real" problem is to build a different room or just hope that bass traps will help, but that still isn't solving the real problem with it. Cause unfortunatly the real problem is physics, hard to change that lol
if that doesnt solve it then the real problem is that he has the wrong speakers or the wrong room
I used Bass Mekanik-Sonic Overload, to calibrate bass on my active studio monitors and active subwoofer, it has tracks ranging from 1HZ to 80 HZ.
It also helped me find vibration/noise spots on around my listening area.
The room is way more critical than most people think. I had a “smallish” ported powered subwoofer that never really sounded very good, it was an underperformer. Then when I got new gear for my listening room, I moved the “small” sub to the garage. Holy hell, putting it in a bigger room woke it up, I was surprised by how much decent output it had compared to my listening room. This summer, I’m making my listening room bigger (partially finished basement) by adding about another 200 square feet.
Same experience here. Same set of active speakers sound way bigger and "heavier" in 50 m2 living room compared to smaller 12 m2 room. Room (size), placement and acoustics are at least 40% responsible for your sound.
Mr Paul
I think you hit the nail on the head for me on this issue and answered a question I’ve had til now.
I have 2 small Home Theaters ( 10’ x11’ ) with identical Speakers in both. Martin Logan Motion 12s front and motion 4s rear surrounds., motion 8 center. The first first room includes 2 Martin Logan 1000 Subwoofers where I felt that visceral chest slam with a an explosion. Later I tried it in the other room where I placed 2 recently purchased SVS NSB-12 Subwoofers with similar power and size. I did not get the same visceral chest slam as with the Martin Logan Subs. I contacted SVS and got some suggestions but nothing worked. With this video I suddenly realized that with the Martin Logan’s I had been sitting about 1 1/2 to 2 ft closer due to a Smaller TV Screen. 40” vs 60”. So distance does matter. Thank you for this insight. 👍
Each is important, the sub has to be time aligned with the mains and the god of room modes must be appeased. It is a major endeavor to acoustically treat room modes in a standard room, so your next option is to figure out the best way to get the least damaged bass spot in the room to be the same place you sit.
Yes and no. Some subwoofers just suck. I’ve had SVS subwoofers in my room and they have no snap/punch/slam to them. Tried every setting every placement. Then I bought a JTR And that sub can be literally anywhere in the room and it’s like a jackhammer to the chest, even at low volumes. The transients are real. I still don’t understand how to account for the difference.
Splendid video and info 👍🏼
Thank you from England 🏴
I replaced my Thiel CS 2.4's for Magnepan LRS. I am amazed at how much slam and solid mid bass they have. They dont extend deep, but what they do give is amazing. After owning magnepans, I dont think I can go back to a conventional speaker set up. Maybe a ribbon tweeter/midrange speaker, but I dont think I could own full cone speakers ever again.
Hi Paul! Never been this early before! Love your vids
My guess would be Room mode frequency cancellation of the room size
Very informative video Paul!! I love good punchiness in my music and it's really hard sometimes to set the speakers in a room for a perfect acoustic atmosphere.
To me bass slam is the combination of low frequency energy and adequate phase alignment of all the overtones, especially in the early transient stage. I tend to think that the less there are things in the way of the overall signal or messing up the impulsional coherence, the better the bass slam will be.
Therefore, I believe the following will favor bass slam:
- full valve amp (yes, a too high damping factor is not your friend for it could overdampen some types of speakers)
- as little as possible crossover components on the woofer (one small enough inductance value to tame the midrange peak, taking into account the woofer's raising impedance slope)
- open baffle or sealed enclosure, or any other design that is extremely well tuned in terms of phase coherence and clean impulsional response
- no subwoofer, or crossed over below max. 70 Hz just to add infra bass AND properly phase aligned AND properly placed. Many things can go wrong here.
- speaker placement - also vertically : very often subwoofers are tucked somewhere on the ground, where they would significantly benefit from vertical placement at 1/4th to 1/3rd floor to ceiling distance, from the floor or ceiling. Same applies for side walls. From rear wall minimum distance in order to avoid comb filtering in the low end register, except perhaps if this helps getting rid of an ugly resonating frequency bump somewhere.
- listener placement (yes, low frequency response changes a lot depending where you are, with knots and bellies just like standing waves)
I've never been adequately slammed by anything less than a 10" woofer! And, I've never heard multiple small woofers sound as good as one 10, 12, or 15" woofer. It's as simple as that. The ONLY reason designers use multiple small woofers is to make cabinets narrower and more appealing to people who don't want to see speakers. (well... they image better too). I've owned really great speakers with dual 7's, dual 8's, and Quad 6.5's! And NONE of them proved satisfying in the mid-bass SLAM department. I've still got my 30yr old B&W 801-S2's with 12" woofers, and they slam! So do my 15" Tannoys. These speakers have been satisfying me for over 20 years, despite my efforts to replace them. Even my little ZU Dirty Weekends have slam, and are very satisfying for only $1k. (they have a 10" driver).
The best advice on bass. Ever!!
The best advice on bass was to get it from your mains ?? Really ?
@@poserwanabe They're many Systems that strap down to Satellites for highs and only Subwoofer for mid+low. For them its a new Experience.
@@poserwanabe “Slam” comes from Mid-Bass tbh
My system (Mini Utopias with twin Rel Stadium IIIs) went from good to "wow" when I added a 2nd sub to properly "load the room". Besides all the good advice from Paul advice about placement and the room (the room acoustics is 90% of it), this has been the biggest jump in bass performance.
I find I get the best loading or coupling of the single sub to be near a corner for less standing wave issues. I have my Quad L sub crossed over at 30Hz and under which is the 3db down point of the Quad 22L main speakers. Where do you have the twin subs located? Rooms, especially small rooms are the biggest challenge for bass smoothness. DSP or EQ can only fix part of the room, but make it worse in other locations. Proper location of all the drivers is the trick for each room, reflections of sound waves, etc.. 90% the rooms fault, agreed.
@@zulumax1 both of my subs are about 1 ft from the back corners and sides, about 2 feet behind the speakers. These are Rels so they integrate well and can appear to be seamless. That said, my setup (where the subs are placed) is what is best for my room layout, which is heavily dampened... everyone's room is different. It took me several years to actually arrive/achieve this optimization. Though the bass is considered monophonic, I find that stereo subs definitely sounds better.
@@technoxtreme178 I agree. Some recordings have the bass in one channel, deep drums in the other, & so on. This still helps with, `directionality,' as much as it can!
@@technoxtreme178 I don’t care for stereo subs. If you’re noticing directionality, your crossover is too high IMHO. Most people run 30-80 or even 100 Hz. That’s WAY too high. Cut both in half. 15-50 Hz is far better.
Hi mr paul ...i very like you videos ...
Good advice for any speaker. But Paul is trying hard not to say you really need different speakers. For bass slam, you really need speakers that can move alot of air with large, but fast and accurate woofers in that critical mid-bass. Check out Legacy Audio.
No you don't need different speakers , just read my main comment
Dantax A/S are among the best in Danish speaker building. Their Raidho line is excellent. The combination with a single very old REL (pre-takover design) nevertheless confuses me. Not a match in character and simply cannot keep up with a messy endresult. If it is not the set-up or room, consider adding 2 subs that are a match.
The thing i found is you have to get in a comfort zone, i have a blue aura v40 amp, kef cube sub, and mission speakers!
I went through my artist collection, i love bass, so from moby, why does my heart for heavy bass , to t. Rex, and 60s artists lighter bass, with the top high notes not being drowned out.
I think my setup with the sub crossover just under 80htz i am very happy, as if you have a 60s song, with little bass and you give it a load of bass from the sub, then play the moby track again the bass is over the top, so thats why i went for the bassist song and set the sub for that, and remember all recordings a different some are bad and some superb!
Great insight.
I just proved this. Can't do home audio (apt) but I just added some 5.25s and a punchy jbl amp and it really sets up the "slam" before the 15 hits
What does "slam" mean? Well, typically it's the frequencies between 55-85 Hz, or at least that range gives you a chesty, tactile feeling (and your sofa vibrates with it too:) . You can absolutely high-cut a subwoofer at (let's say) 90hz to get that. The BIGGER PROBLEM is typically the room you're listening in. In my space, for example, putting a Sub at the frot wall (where the speakers are) resulted in a lot of lower bass (30-50Hz range) but little "slam" mid bass at my listening position. A good solution is to place your Sub near your listening position (just behind if possible). That made the "slam" so much more tactile. Oh, and you might want to EQ the peaks of bass in your room; believe me, hitting a room mode while listening rips you right our of the experience (it does me, at least).
Great, now I have to find the sweet spot in my room and stand very still.
Percussion, more specifically drums, lays across such a huge frequency range you have to find the "attack" and "punch" frequencies in the 100s and up frequency range. Really aggressive music even gets up into the kilohertz range when mixing drums. The easiest way to address slam, attack or whatever is to make sure that your system can hit those ranges evenly with a frequency pass test, and then check with dynamic and multiple instrument tracks to see if the room is too boom-y with overlapping lower/lower mid frequencies muddying up the sound.
Bass slam is when the bass has great impulse response and dynamics rather than boomy slow response.
You can’t get those pants flappin with sluggish bass!
Sealed box speakers tend to have a better transient response than ported ones and if your gonna use a sub anyway sealed for the main speakers is the way to go. Also sealed designs are less fussy about placement and tend not to excite room modes as much.
@@chrisgoodson9312 Yes, right. Speakers extending the frequency response through tricks like passive radiators might give out more bass but it’s with poor impulse response performance.
@@ThinkingBetter Ported systems are not much better. Air has mass to it as well, you can not change the laws of physics. At the tuned frequency there is a resonance of air built up in the port and it will ring after the input energy stops. Poor attack and decay. There will also be a upper harmonic node at the port each octave above the tuned frequency, decreasing with each octave increase. Sealed is better, but you have to deal with the stored energy trapped inside the enclosure. Damping material inside the box creates friction with the moving air turning the stored energy to heat. Still a lot of energy bounces around and finds its way out the cone or vibrations of the enclosure itself coupling the the air. For fast attack and decay or "slam" the best speaker for that is a dipole design, or H design, open or flat baffle woofers or sub. That is just my experience and opinion of course.
@@zulumax1 Yes, agree. I don’t like ported designs. My preference is closed subs. In my home office where I am right now I run a Velodyne servo closed box subwoofer with a miniDSP cross-over getting me an excellent impulse and frequency response. One essential metric of a subwoofer is that it doesn’t produce any harmonics that make you aware of its location. In fact, I’ve asked several people about locating my sub in this room and nobody has succeeded. They turn to the side speakers claiming they make the sub bass.
replacing the power cable helped me solve this problem
i agree, the room had a lot to do with this, i have a special spot i move my chair too when i wish to have my liver kicked by drums :)
that snappy high bass note is brutal when you feel it and it is loud.
the bigger the speaker the lover the volume you feel it.
i am talking about something that happens in the 120 hz to 200hz range, so many people with subwoofer never experienced. its all about cone area since passive radiator and ports dont work up high. 15" subwoofer can do it in small rooms and set to at least 120hz and slow roll off filter. cheapest way to get this to work is sealed subwoofers and small sealed bookshelf speakers. if you have large main speakers then crossing over the subwoofer up high most likely will cause a mess, or if any of the cabinets in the system is ported.
i almost forgot to mention a song that has slam: soul-crusher by white zombie.
“slam” comes from mid-bass
Hi Paul, I was experiencing a similar issue despite my gear being well specified in a well designed and built room. There was a vague and loose bass, cured by relocation of both subs to 2M away from side walls and running Anthem/Paradigm PBK in the subs. Transformed completely so you can now feel bass waves, subs are Paradigm Sub25 with 3Kw driving 15 inches. That's RMS power too! The equivalent DSP can be found in SVS as a separate box for 2 subs probably only second hand now. Should do the trick. Cheers Bruce from Adelaide Australia!
Adelaide became an epicenter since you moved in? :)
@@rdolle990 Been here since 1973 as home base.
@@brucemibus9523 I lived in Adel;aide since 1977, bought a house in Peterborough (2010), currently at Edwardstown for a third week
@@vaughntonkin539 Just down the hill a bit, Hallett Cove. We should have a get together..
@@brucemibus9523 I've left a few other comments about my thoughts on Loudness, esp the old amps that had caps wired across the volume control, I get into them and disconnect where there is no off button
Good clean power supply helps the bass too.
Yep, I wired my sub up the way you recommended, thanks.
Didn't hear him say anything about wiring subs up how did you wire as you put it them up
@@johnsweda2999 Hi, it was in a previous video. Again, very interesting.
@@doctorrobin3040yes. Paul said to use the high level inputs is the sub the use the outputs of the subs to go to the main speakers. Get more of a full range effect and can indeed provide the mid bass slam one may be looking for.
Best method is to have large main speakers though. Bookshelf speakers won’t do it.
@@f430ferrari5 bookshelves certainly can have “slam” with dual subs
@@graxjpg I should have clarified my point. When I said best to get floor standing speakers I meant to add for overall sound presence.
Yes you can get the bass slam with 2 subs but that’s now overkill in relation to 2 book shelfs.
You won’t get the mid bass hard hitting drum kick with this type is set up normally. Are you recommending 2 8 inch subs in a relatively small room? If yes okay maybe but not in large with 2 12 in subs assuming matching pair. The deeper bass would be overpowering and you may have nice vocals but the mid bass kick would be missing.
It’s all preference though.
Hopefully your chosen subs and main speakers is a good match to your current listening room to achieve the bass slam that you desire given that low frequencies tend to be room fussy.
Easy fix;
1.) Don't sit at room's midpoint front-to-back... big nulls exist there. Try 38% point off front wall ... if possible.
2.) SBIR
For ideal "slam" acoustic coupling, the loudspeakers need to be within 2 feet (60cm) of the front wall. Or keep the sub within 2 feet (60cm) and place the mains well out past 4 feet (120cm).
It's all about avoiding destructive interference.
My Mosscade 8" sub slams bigtime and is very musical also
Absolutely right !
Hi there, Paul. I like all of your videos since you explain things in very easy terms to understand, particularly, for a newbie, like myself, and which has led me to start building my system from scratch. One of the things I'm planning to build is a Transmission Line enclosure. Got a question - let's say my target frequency were 35Hz using a driver with a frequency response of 44Hz - 22000Hz. So, 35Hz is below 44Hz. Will my T-Line enclosure be able to hit the target? Or I do I need to set a new target at a point no lower than the one part of the driver's frequency response? Regards and, please, never stop making videos.
Ni kilophpt
0:29 Dude you got some nice stuff here, ... 4:22 They really good speakers, they just euch! :)
I learned something new.
I think that what Paul is saying, in that the good, wide midrange is responsible for the leading edge, initial, `attack,' of the frequency range in question. Because the larger, relatively, `heavier,' woofer cone can't react as quickly. Part of even a large, double bass is the plucking of the strings, the range of the bass cabinet vibrations, upper overtones of the musician playing which a revealing system should also reproduce. Many years ago, I had a pair of, I think it was the Koss Electrostatic headphones, and for the first time, at the beginning of, "Washington Square," the hit record by The Village Stompers, I could hear the banjo strings being plucked! As for, `punchiness,' the Klipsch subs, 12" & 15" speakers, have a definite, extra, `punch,' which is probably an exaggeration, but which I also enjoy! So, there!
This is a topic which I have discussed so many times and believe me instead of all this lecture I can tell you something completely different. Your choice of using speakers with subwoofers is definitely a good thought but you can never get the slam or bang if you dont have the lfe. Now how to get balanced sound from lfe while listening to stereo sound or 2..1 or 2.2 is definitely not easy but if the settings are correct you get that perfect base and you may feel as if the subwoofers dont exist as the sound is so perfect .
The fastest "slammiest" speakers I know are the Martin Logans ESL's. I'm running a pair of 11's and they are pretty nice speakers all-round.
We love bass and our speakers of choice for this are Cerwin Vegas. Pretty much anywhere we put them in the room we get the Bass Slam. We don't use subwoofers just loud speakers. We have a pair of CVs in our living room, basement and bedroom. Living room and basement have models with 15" drivers and bedroom has a model with 12" drivers. We are soo happy with these speakers.
Good response, Paul. Gotta' say the Raidho d3 speakers with 3 4.5-inch woofers IMO is rather sad from a bass perspective. Not quite sure why one would make them nor why one would by them for this exact reason. Achieving a musical bass is tough enough as it is. Trying to get a musical bass from the D3's is probably like tying both arms and one leg behind your back and then challenge you to a game of tennis. Not saying it's impossible but pretty close. Finding THE superior speaker placement within a given room is absolutely paramount toward achieving this type of bass. However, I disagree with your assessment of the subwoofer's abilitiies. I'm no fan of REL subs but after giving up on my full-range speakers, I purchased a Rhythmik 15" subwoofer and immediately placed in a "suitable" location. Lucky for me the Rhythmik has about 10 toggle-switches and knobs to play with and after a really really embarrassingly long time, I was finally able to achieve that magical bass. Never moved the subwoofer 1mm nor the speakers to make this happen. Once the subwoofer crossed over to the promised land, I was able to continue fine-tuning the bass here and there which included moving the full-range speakers a bit but still not the sub. Here's a small sample of the bass I'm trying to describe and the slam as you put is primarily coming from the subwoofer. czcams.com/video/-dgoYYwkJVA/video.html The visual effects of the bass should help if the listener's earbuds/headphones don't.
In all this not much was mentioned about the room. If your asking for slam out of smallish speakers relative to the room than your not getting much slam. This person obviously has top notch gear. This just further illustrates how important a room interacts with a system. You can even have big bucks systems and still not live up what your wanting for sound. Again the room is one of the most important components in a system.
Hi Paul. As an audiovisual engineer, I value your suggestions. Thanks for your time and effort. Happy New Year.
Time alignment. If the arrivals from the sub and main speakers arrive at different times there will be no impact. Needs measurement and delay to get it right.
That wouldn’t have been my solution, but it’s nice to hear a professional perspective. Unfortunately, it digs into the double-edged sword of using multiple drivers. Less: crossover and phase are almost a non-issue. More: each driver can specialize in its own band. Personally, I find it easier to run a 4-way setup. Subwoofer, midbass, midrange, and tweeter. Maybe even adding a woofer for 5-way. Many high-end companies claim to offer full-range 3-ways, but their crossover points are far from ideal and they often have no low end extension. You’ve got to mix and match a little. I’d find another driver pair and place them under your current stereo cabinets. Bandpass them around 60-100 Hz. Place your subwoofer IN YOUR CHAIR, then walk around the room to find where it has a good fill. Move it to that location. Retune the entire system for time and phase.
What would be some good tracks to listen for this? Nothing esoteric but something I might have in my 80K track library focused on rock, pop, jazz, rap and alternative. I'll start, many red hot chili peppers song and Flea's slapping bass, say on songs Californication or The Getaway track. Stevie wonder superstion?
These tracks have some sick low end to it.
czcams.com/video/321wvG_sgnI/video.html&ab_channel=TruThoughtsJukeBox
czcams.com/video/QN1YjiSuKO0/video.html&ab_channel=IAMNOBODI-Topic
As Paul says, the leading edge on a bass slam lie within harmonies much higher up the frequency range than the Subs working window. ATB Peter
I think the "bass slam" is a bad way to describe it, even though its part of the audiophile lexicon. Better would be tight bass, but I digress. However, its a good point in saying it does require a larger frequency range than what the sub would normally handle to get good transient response. A good sub should have onboard DSP that's capable of band-limiting the audio but still provide a reasonable ability to allow the amplifier to slew fast enough so the bass isn't mushy. If the sub just has a standard linear amplifier with passive filter network, it could roll the response off too early. Even my inexpensive Polk sub is quite sophisticated with an onboard microcontroller and dedicated DSP chip to handle the audio.
If you're going to discuss "slam" you need to define it.
If I'm behind the desk and the producer says the bass/kick or whatever needs more punch, I'm reaching for maybe 60 -80hz depending...if he wants more snap or definition I'm reaching for 2-4khz depending on what it is...
What FREQUENCY am I tweaking for "SLAM" ???
Btw- for "slam" I prefer 2 sealed single 18's running on 2kw each....jus sayin
DIY for the win...peace
Mmmm...good point ...what does it mean for you?
Something we learn on the PA side of audio is that impulse response coherency is a result of phase coherence. Eq actually shifts things more out of phase. Digital eq less so than analogue typically though. Many PA designs are now based more around phase accuracy than eq accuracy for that very reason. We can fix eq with less phase shift after the act better than we can in the build process. If everything is as phase accurate as humanly possible the resultant "slam" and actually intelligibility of the entire system is mad improved. That is why we spend so much time dealing with sub to mid/high phase in PA set ups these days.
“slam” comes from mid-bass
Slam? Or maybe just IMPACT! I'm saying it's impact. In either interpretation like Paul said the distance from the energy source is critical but because each frequency has a different wavelength it's impossible to be in the right place for all of them. However something that must be accounted for is two things for sure. Rigidity of the listening area, meaning everything can't be soft. Two the amount of the atmosphere your transducer's can excite relative to your listening area. I.e. big soft room and small speakers with small power not good
Small rigid room and big speakers with adequate power hold on!
@@petersouthernboy6327 Slam comes from mid bass COHERENCY. We call it a cross over because the frequency spectrums overlap. That is why the phase relation (relative phase) of the sub affects "slam". If it is not phase coherent in the mid bass band you will not have "slam". It is that simple. I never argued against that however the notion that only the mid-bass drivers in a sound system affect that in practice is pretty well a false notion especially in home audio where crossovers to subs are more commonly 6 and 12 db/oct slopes rather than 24 or 48. It should also be known that crossovers being a type of eq also shift phase creating incoherence and the reason critical listening designed systems use shallower slopes is for the purpose of retaining maximum phase accuracy.
the slam is in the 50 Hz to 200 Hz range. Not in subwoofer range.
My subwoofer is from 30Hz to 150Hz. And I got plenty of slam. Not everybody got main speakers go down to 50Hz.
Exactly. Typical small mid bass drivers can’t produce slam and subwoofer won’t help. You understand this when you hear some quality speakers with large front firing bass driver producing the bass from 50-350 Hz or so. Narrow columns with side firing bass just don’t produce slam. Try JBL synthesis speakers or similar with large front firing woofer and you will understand.
Agree, boosted upper bass, a way to make small (active) speakers sound "big" but it comes at a price for detail and balance.
I was going through the same thing, no punch on songs like “Psycho Killer”, flipped the phase switch and boom, clear, punchy, well defined, etc. As supposed to “muddy”
Same here.
It does happen that things are 180 deg phase reversed and that is where the "phase switch" which is more accurately a polarity switch comes into play. The problem is when something is say 75 deg out of phase. You then need to consider whether the problem is a temporal (time based) issue in that a delay in the signal can cause this. We call it phase shift or if it is in time but phase angle shifted. Commonly subwoofers come with a variable phase angle control but that is not a time control (delay). With that control you could shift the phase angle to match at a given frequency but still remain out of time which will increase your coherency but still not achieve closer to lifelike impact. I say closer because actually we aren't capable of exact yet.
Tried that but it didn’t work for me. I think it’s a combination of the shape of the room that my system is in and the fact that Magis really do not have the best midbass in the marketplace and that’s a known fact. I’m sure that replacing the wiring would make a substantial difference but that’s a major job that I do not want to undertake.
Hearing songs is a rather hard way of tuning things. Connect your smartphone and output some tones using an app like Frequency Generator. Go through the frequencies that bother you and make sure they sound more or less even at and around the listening position. This way you know exactly where you are and are actually tuning it for your ear. Play your songs afterwards and tune more. Don't forget to toggle the speakers speakers in and out one by one and together as well to detect phase issues.
If you flip a phase switch and everything is fine doesn't that mean one of you speaker cables was connected wrong? (no disrespect...just asking...amateur here)...thanks.
The best and cheapest way is to buy a EV EKX18P or the EV EKX15P if You don't have the room for the 18".They are designed for kick drum and works :)
He needs to keep the sub on, chest slam happens around 50hz, that's a subwoofers job. Then, he should check his cross overs.
bob carver is always slamming bass over here
Hi Paul. Which speaker cabinet works best for slam bass? My personal opinion is that enclosed speaker cabinets offer superior slam bass like the 1970 and 1980 era monitor style enclosed speakers. What do you think?
I agree. A closed box has better transient response.
This guy is a circus clown.
Horns are best. Then comes pipes and after that closed boxes. Vented boxes do not cut it. Large speakers elements with heavy magnets helps. In my experience.
@@tomashjalmarson8177 Well, I tend to like music where the output of the amp defines the waveform that my eardrums follow as much as possible. Speakers that add resonant decay or rooms that add multi-path to the sound waves are not producing the most pure signal as what was in the recording.
Hegel of course
I still have your 200c Amp. I paired that with an Audio Research SP-9 preamp and I loved it. I haven’t plugged it in for 15 years. Any advice if I try to?
Large filter caps should be reformed perhaps, they will reform on their own, but there is a large current surge going into some 15 year old electrolytic capacitors. A gentle reform by a qualified repair person might be good advice if you want longer life out of them.
@@zulumax1 The amp is 35 years old; bought in the 80’s. I just haven’t turned it on since 2003.
@@gchristopherklug Had to do some research on this amp. I don't think this amp has a slow start feature. There are two 10,000 uf capacitors in the main power supply which need to charge and reform. Capacitors keep their chemical state of equilibrium, or form for probably 2 to 5 years without being powered up. Considering the rated life expectancy is 20 years on these, you are on borrowed time. If you want to make it reliable they should be replaced. My experience is the large value caps don't fail as often as the smaller ones on the circuit board, so your are taking a gamble plugging it in after a long storage period. If it were me I would do a visual inspection of the inside and bring it up with a variac slow with a light bulb in series. Check for DC on the speaker outputs with a multi-meter before connecting speakers. Don't know if you are able to do this yourself.
@@zulumax1 I have someone who could. Thank you for the reply!
What Paul is referring as slam I call tight bass and it starts with dampening
You can only achieve good impressive ( dynamic !) bass slam is to have a really good mid bass coupler ... I personally don't think Raidho speakers go in for this unfortunately... your best choice is to sell the Raidho's and use speakers ( or build your own ... if you have access to test gear ) and use a really good mid bass coupler(s) .. usually high power 8 inch or 10 inch drivers not intended for sub woofer use
If you really want to get slammed. get a GSG Audio Devastator that has a 21" pro audio subwoofer in a 6th order horn loaded band pass subwoofer. You can buy them prebuilt from there. Normally you have to build your own cabinets.
You're not going to get that kind of bass unless your speakers can go down to at least 35hz before they start rolling off. You have to do a Bass frequency sweep to see where the peaks versus dips are. Once you peq and flatten the curves, then peq for your bass slam to your liking. Adjusting your bass to the room resonance works well. Usually falls between 30-50hz. Room resonance equals free bass slam using hardly any power.
When the Seinfeld intro bass guitar sounds good, all is right in the world ;-)
Or, Barney Miller.
Yes! This is generally a great sound to reference, as most people who own this kind of stuff know what that is supposed to sound like.
That was actually done with a keyboard
@@tothemax324 it’s pretty obvious to most music fans that those are definitely early samples. I don’t remember if it was a fairlight, synclavier or what.
Easiest way is to get Cerwin vega speaker and provide them good power. Tried lot of other speakers never felt bass like Cerwin Vegas.
That bass slam is generated around 60Hz and to get that you have to use pro audio subwoofer drivers. Pro audio drivers are far more efficient at generating these frequencies than a subwoofer. I recommend (2) 15 or 18" subs ported and run them off a Behringer NX3000D amplifier and you will have Bass slam for days!
He probably has a bass suck out, or frequency cancelations. I’ve experienced this problem. Tried my (at that time), tannoy arundels (15” dual concentrics)...electronics used were Classe’ preamp, and 300 watt per channel Classe’ amps...linn sondeck turntable...
No matter where I put them in that room, and I’m talking about all the walls were tried. And different distances from all the walls...no luck, the sound was thin and anaemic. All has to do with room dimensions, and frequency cancellations. Some rooms are impossible to work with...✌️😎
Yeea, raidho has plenty of bass but with a lot’s of air...
Here in Denmark they goes for the top system on every hifi shows...
I think the problem is we all don’t think what good bas sounds like...!!
I’m glad haircuts don’t work this way. I believe the customer is correct when preferences are involved.
In my experience the best reference for slam will be from live performances in small to medium venues.
Raidho speakers sound really good at every show I've heard them at
Forgot to say my listening room 14ft x 20ft and is setup for my hifi!
question. I keep hearing about this Slam bass I assume that is impact bass when talking about Denon AH - D2000's. can anyone assist me in understanding this?
Slam bam thanku mam
Open baffle subs in my couch give me that slam. I’ve never felt any sub or speaker do this.
Scotty, what brand of open baffle subs do you have? I’m asking because I have Spatial Audio speakers and debated whether or not I should buy an open baffle sub to compliment the Spatials. I like the looks of the “Lii 15 bass baffle” I saw on the caintuckaudio.com website. Thanks
@@DBTAudio check out the tactile response thread on avs forum. Lots of guys build their own setups. I’m using jbl12’s like most the guys in there. www.avsforum.com/threads/the-tactile-response-thread-for-bass.3081780/page-308#post-60367985
Believe it or not, Magnepans have great slam. Just the same, I’d look at Klipsch Heritage speakers. The Heresy does slam. I’ve heard that the little Elac Reference does too. Tektons all have it. So do SVS Ultras. There are trade offs involved though. I try to count my blessings and be happy with what I have. I’m happy with my Buchardts
Agreed about the Magnepans! Some of the most misunderstood speakers out there.
The only way I can get real slim out of my Maggie 3.6 hours is if the source material has been done just right and that is rare. Since you are getting great slam with Maggie’s I’d like some suggestions.
@@stimpy1226 I’m not personally familiar with the 3.6, but my 1.7i do fine in my ~230sq/ft L-shape listening room. Do you have some space behind your Maggies?
Doing napkin math, I’m using maybe ~8WPC for a listening level that’s plenty loud enough for me. I haven’t noticed much of a difference between amplifiers, and I’ve used anything from 40WPC tubes to 300WPC SS. Currently using a used Cambridge Audio CXA80.
I use Spotify Premium (320kbps) and sometimes Qobuz or Tidal, but I don’t hear a difference anyway.
How about you?
I should mention that I previously had 1.6QR and always thought I was missing something. Replacing them with the 1.7i was HUGE in terms of dynamic range and impact (slam). I assume my 1.6QR were a bit worn out, and also older technology.
@@EliasTheHunter my Magis are over 4 foot away from the front wall so I don’t think that’s the problem but it is a large open area not like my former residence which was designed to be a listening room. My power amp is 100 W per channel audio research which I would like to buy a second and flip the bridge switch to mono because I think it needs more power in the 200 Hz region. I do have certain recordings that sound really great in this region with good control by the amp over the planer magnetic panel.
@@stimpy1226 I would be surprised if you actually need more power, but if that’s the route you’re interested in pursuing, then go for it! If it’s a specific frequency that’s lacking, maybe look into DSP?
I edited my previous reply to include my thoughts on 1.6QR to 1.7i. That may be relevant given the age (and technology) of your 3.6.
Well, I am not an expert but don't you have the slam signal for the slam bass? To simplistic?
I like using the "tom" drum recordings. Fleetwood Mac Tusk is a good one with the USC marching band.
He should switch to dynaudio... Very dynamic and has real slam.
Yes, I have Dynaudio Evoke, and I feel the slam in the chest.
the speaker setup is also important. But you usually never get the real live sound feeling in your home unless you play too loud for your ears.
Raidho's missing bass slam?
Not a problem with System-Audio (SA) 😁
Although everything that Paul said is correct, there is more to the equation.
Most recordings have sub par sound quality. The yahoos at the studios equalize, compress, and suck the life out of otherwise high-energy, dynamic recordings.
So you can have amazing stereo equipment, professionally set-up, in a treated room, and still not get "slam", because it is simply not in the recording.
Some people compensate for lifeless recordings with their own tone controls, etc (something you will not normally find on higher end equipment). And although that can artificially add slam to recordings, it will sound contrived (because it is contrived).
Sadly, if it is not in the recording (and few recordings actually have slam), then you are $h!t out of luck. It has to be in the recording for you to be able to reproduce it in your listening room.
"Jazz Variants", track #11, has some good slam here and there (especially at around the 7:50 time mark):
us.7digital.com/artist/o-zone-percussion-group/release/o-zone-percussion-group-bamba-la-1682469
So before you wear yourself out, trying to fix your stereo, be certain that you are playing a song that actually has slam.
There are countless great songs that should have slam, but do not, due to the butchering job done at the studios (they compress the dynamics so that the song will sound good over the PA system in the shopping mall). So trying to get those songs to reproduce slam in your home is impossible, because the slam was sucked out of the song in the studio.
If anyone can suggest any songs that have slam, I (and probably others) would be interested in your recommendations.
User: "buckzx12r
" recommended Thriller.
That is a decent sounding recording, for the pop genre. But my opinion of it is that, although it is better sounding than most rock, pop, and disco type songs, it is still lacking in fidelity, and I do not recall it having slam. The right vinyl pressing will beat the CD (assuming a good turntable with all of the tone-arm and cartridge vectors professionally dialed in). But those pressings mostly suck. The few vinyl gems, that beat the CD, are hard to find.
Lastly, if you want to exercise your woofers, this album will go lower than most speakers will go:
www.amazon.com/Greatest-Funkin-Hits-PROFESSORS-FUNK/dp/B00080Z63I/
All of the songs have deep bass, especially:
"Baby Got Back" and "Hard Times"
If your room is not large enough, there will be notes that go unnoticed
Note that the songs are not original. But the sound quality is between average to very good (most people will think it is perfect, but I am very critical). I am recommending it simply for the deep notes.
Cheers!
Wrong in many ways.
@@duaneantor9157 And you could not mention any of the many ways.
Name three.
He could block the speaker's bass port if they are ported
problem is 90% of the consumer speakers use 6.5-7inch woofers. try 8-10-15inch woofer and you ll know what slam is. big klipsch, jbl, spatial audio.
Great port designs and well made woofers along with good efficiency can still produce fantastic bass slam while keeping good extension, at least for speakers. For subwoofers, I'd say sealed is always better. Some of the best slam I've heard came from a 6 in old focal midwoofer inside an overbuilt cabinet with minimal damping. I'm currently rebuilding the same speakers with a slightly different design.
How many people can afford Gryphon?
Sounds like "dude" has a phase cancelling problem somewhere in his listening room. An EQ or phase shift circuit may help here.
Some Truth to that but always best to have a electronic crossover and with subs especially too much loss with passive
I feel like he's looking for low midrange headroom.
Get Cerwin vega speakers they provide the best bass I have heard, they will put you back in your chair and it’s good sounding bass not slow or lousy, fast and accurate. Otherwise keep on spending money on smaller driver speakers and on subs. Tried it never got satisfied.
I think Berry needs a JL Audio Gotham subwoofer... g213v2-GLOSS. if dual 13.5" and 4500 watts.
heh, but yeah, do what Paul said
REW and room correction software helps enormously with bass issues.
Trade your speakers in For a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls and you will have all the slam you want.
I've had speakers without, `slam,' which I enjoyed for years: `Medium sized,' good sized but not huge, Warfedale's with a 15" woofer, 3 way, sealed, excellent deep extended bass, though simply accurate, no exaggerated `punch' or `slam,' as the Klipsch 12" woofers have, today, that I enjoy, but isn't this a form of distortion, nevertheless, even if we like this? {`Terrible, not completely accurate! Ha!'} Today, the Klipsch 12" Woofers have this, `punch' (So did, Jim Jones!), but their smaller 10 inchers, don't. In the same sized cabinet, Warfedale also had a 4 way, with much better mid range definition, but less bass in it's 10" speaker. Buy both, stack `em! Both Warfedales did have a cheap, noisy crossover, when carefully positioned, sounded, `O. K.!)
Oh. YOU ARE NEW 😜
And I know Wharfdales too.
F how my phone wants to spell it 😂 but.
Got 3 Words For You 🥰
Speaker Lab, Carver.
If there is a too much delay in signal between subwoofer and speakers, this could be the reason why you seems to loose the slam.
Well to be completely honest I never hear something good out of the Raidho. The low bass isnt there and mid bass is simply bad. And as people here said it right, its about impulse response. You can have good bass slam from subwoofer (I have 13" Focal). But its about connection with your main speakers. You need to have good speaker placement, then do time alignment and then phase alignment. And for that you need DSP and measurements. But good acoustics is really needed! No DSP can fix acoustics problems like treatment can.
That’s so true! You’re not getting bass slam from the sub 😢
Yes, but bass slam is ruined by poor impulse response when the attack and decay are not following the audio signal making the bass boomy and a bad subwoofer can make it worse.
@@ThinkingBetter I have pretty good Rel T7i that doesn’t ruin anything and no bass slam. In fact, it mostly depends on speaker amp combo.
@@oleksiifilippov68 Yes, Rel T7i is a good sub. Bass slam has to do with timing and phase more than frequency response. To make the high frequencies of a kick drum to match the low frequencies in the time domain, most critical is that the bass is not muddy with poor decay. A closed woofer/subwoofer is better for this.
@@ThinkingBetter what if there is no slam in my system without any sub?
@@oleksiifilippov68 It depends the sort of music you listen to. I love music that involves my subwoofers and especially with bass slam of higher frequency harmonics. Some kick drums or electronic music can do this well.
What is base slam anyways?
Its a fast, strong, and accurate mid-bass...80hz -120 hz range.
“slam” comes from mid-bass
@@dmark2639 you mean like the gun shots in the John Wick movies?
Check out better interconnects ...or swap the IC‘s places. It’s also a matter of synergy. In my case that made a phantastic bass improvement.
2021....still no speakers from Paul. It's becoming comical.
Wait for it! Hahaha. Patience is a virtue.
...and later on you don’t like the looks of it. 🙀
They want to get it right. They are passionate and they want to create something special. They are taking the time they need.
his priority is making a community, a fan boy community before because a good product isn't suficient (?)
@@scottmackey4182 Lol! They are obviously having issues of some kind.
"move the speakers". That's it?!? Wow. Thanks for the technical advice. LOL
80% of what you hear is the room, 15% is speaker position, 5% is gear.
So yes, move the speakers. Or better yet, fix the room.
You can't feel hard impulses if the room is a big wobbly mess of air acting like a block of Jello. Bass traps drain the energy out of the room, and let you feel the impulses coming from the drivers.
And of course, you still can't feel them if you are sitting in a null zone, which is why Paul told him to move the speakers.
Hush, it's apparently 'a secret' ! :-)
What kind of response were you hoping for? Throw everything out and start over?
He said it's good gear, his problem most likely lies within the setup and placement.
Most of us try and dance a line between looks and functionality, somewhere in there is the optimum placement for any given room.
Maybe he has approached it from a gear issue instead of placement issue, in which case this advise could be incredibly useful.
@@DF-et4gs I don't know. How about running the device outputs through an analogue crossover system, like a dbx 360, before the sound hits the speakers, and adjusting the crossover slopes and/or phase and/or polarity, OR similarly situated software. But hey, I'm not the expert. Carl
Yeah lots of people make that mistake and go all in on the sub side thinking all the bass comes from there, when it really doesn't. They miss out on the mid bass because the subs are crossed too low, not efficient enough in that mid bass range, wrong type of enclosure, and a lot of the time, the main speakers aren't in a good place in the room vs the seating position. All rooms have room "modes" front to back / left to right and up/down that are bands of good / bad spots for certain frequencies where the out of phase soundwaves either cancel out or add to the same frequency either creating nulls or peaks in the response. You can tweak this slightly with delay settings, but realistically room treatments, distance from front flange of speaker to walls, seating position, etc all make a difference. Getting tons of bass is easy, but getting "good" bass is hard without some work. Either need large mains or midbass cabinets with highly efficient woofers to handle that frequency range. having a huge sub and small mains or mains with weak bass is always a recipe for having a huge gap in midbass frequency response. That coupled with everything else really compounds it
you should have read my comment, its all explained there. would have saved you all this time ranting.
@@sudd3660 If you had actually explained anything, maybe I wouldn't have had to comment? Also, that wasn't a rant
@@Cryptic1911 il copy my original post: the room had a lot to do with this, i have a special spot i move my chair too when i wish to have my liver kicked by drums :)
that snappy high bass note is brutal when you feel it and it is loud.
the bigger the speaker the lover the volume you feel it.
i am talking about something that happens in the 120 hz to 200hz range, so many people with subwoofer never experienced. its all about cone area since passive radiator and ports dont work up high. 15" subwoofer can do it in small rooms and set to at least 120hz and slow roll off filter. cheapest way to get this to work is sealed subwoofers and small sealed bookshelf speakers. if you have large main speakers then crossing over the subwoofer up high most likely will cause a mess, or if any of the cabinets in the system is ported.
@@sudd3660 I saw the original post
The Atomic Thump is non-existent ....
I complemented little active desk speakers with a cheap 10" Tannoy mx10Sub. Slam and wall shaking I got but not in a good, controlled and detailed way. Some people might enjoy that and consider that a "fun bass boost". The sub didn't really dive under 40/45 Hz. I think what most people consider "slam"is actually and increased/elevated upper bass boost, which is nothing more than an accumulation of certain bass frequencies killing balance and detail. To get more slam you could try to get an equalizer involved. But if the drivers aren't capable you might need to consider different hardware.
Michael Jacksons Thriller cd.If that doesnt slam,you have no bass speakers.
You kidding?
Or no copy of Thriller which is wise.
@@HanifBarnwell I really hope so...
@@ccpbass2032 so it's moe just me who thinks THRILLER on CD is ear piercingly bright?
Hook up a couple JTR RS2's and tell me again there's no slam 😂
you need to move air, piles of it
Hands down, folded horn systems are the best of any speaker design that will generally produce slam via direct room coupling, right in the frequencies where "slam" lives. That's been my experience at least. Unfortunately, the rest of what happens with horn loaded systems occurs as well. Somehow Klipsch has been able to create mind-boggling, visceral slam with their ported box designs. I don't know how they do it. Since their legacy is with folded horns and some sealed designs like the Hersey, most of the mainstays in the line are ported.The R7 tower speakers are insanely great in this regard. But also a lot of open baffle, line array designs are pretty much the best for real-life transient punch.
^^he gets it^^
Turn down the volume. The speakers are overpowering the acoustics of the space.