I've got the Sprindex. It actually works, eliminates the need for any more preload than necessary and allows you to perfect your spring-rate, assuming you know what you're after. It's also light and makes the bottom-end a bit more progressive. Awesome product. I totally see your point with the preload here, and I agree, but I do think that adding (excessive) preload increases harshness when riding over chatter. Sort of makes it feel like an air-spring in a way; hard at the start of the stroke, then soft, with the exception of a ramp-up at the end.. But if you're satisfied with the outcome you get with preload, then run that setup and it doesn't matter what others say, as long as it is effective for your riding.
hi, I'm trying to mount the same shock absorber on my trek slash 8 2020. I'm in doubt about the metric, only the 230x60 is sold. While the current shock absorber is fitted with 230x57.5. Did you find any problems with the assembly? Which metric did you choose?
Not sure how tall you are, but I think that 29 is always superior. Front and rear. I really like how 29 rolls over stuff so smoothly and I personally haven't found any negatives with it, other than the fact that it might be a bit less nimble, but that can be overcome easily by just having good technique and using more force to do whatever you're trying to do on your bike. One of the only reasons why I think "mullet" is good in general is "assbuzz", never happens to me as I'm on the taller side (190cm), but I see it being a problem for some shorter people under certain circumstances. And of course 27,5 can be a lot of fun and that's also a good reason to run smaller wheels, but if we talk performance, 29 any day for me.
Hi, can't decide if it's better to get a cane creek double barrel air il with all of its adjustments, or a marzocchi bomber cr for 50$ more. I ride mostly trails like the one you ride, so i think a coil would be ideal, but i'm worried that the stock tune on the bomber might not feel good, what do you think will feel better over tough stuff? A well tuned air shock, or a not so well tuned coil? Thank you 👍
A well tuned shock will always be more enjoyable than one not set up well whether its air or coil. I’d be reluctant to get the db air il if its not the newer Kitsuma model. I’m currently on a Kitsuma coil and I love the ease and convenience of the finger dials. The performance is great as well. That said I had plenty of fun on the bomber, but the tunability and range from the Kitsuma absolutely wins for me
@@mtbtelly5522 I actually have a Titan with a smaller wheel in back, it's an absolute weapon. Feels super dialled with the small rear wheel and the bike works well in both low or high mode. Want to try coil shock next nsmb.com/articles/banshee-titan-review-part-two/ have a squiz
@@mtbtelly5522 Yep the dropouts can be mounted in 2 positions giving something like 1/2 a degree adjustment. Initially i had them in Low for full 29, then when i went to mullet I popped them in High which gives you almost identical geo to 29 Low. On a whim i decided to try the dropouts in Low as mullet, so lower and slacker than stock. Combined with a 180 fork and DH tires this thing is crazy at the bike park. Pedal strikes aren't too bad but I think when i ride flatter and rockier trails i might go back to high, but keep it in mullet
An air shock has the potential to be as good or better than a coil in most scenarios. But the consistency of a spring is unmatched. Performance alone I’ve had the best from air shocks, but the varying spring rate due to temperature is a flaw which can be mitigated through airing your shocks up with nitrogen to minimise the variations. The coil is far superior in that aspect but everything else leans towards air
F = a(x) + b F is force at which the spring is pushing back x is the travel a is the spring rate b is the preload They are different thing. Getting to sag with preload won't give much more resistance down the travel. Exactly equal to the preload you put in actually. Going up a spring rate will give a lot more resistance deep in the travel because you're changing the literal rate of the spring curve. Both can be usefull to get the overall spring curve you like. I don't ride very hard, so adding preload for me may not be too bad because i may not need more resistance in the travel.
Sounds like you need a shock with independent circuits to get the setup you want. On the CR the compression and rebound shim stacks are independently adjustable but still exist on the same circuit. As you found you can get them to alter tune for each but any change you make to the shim configuration will affect both high and low speed, and both comp. and rebound. Time to start saving for a DHX2, Storia, DBcoilIL, etc.
@@mtbtelly5522 I stick to Fox. Haven't mess with anything from CC but the DB.(too many horror stories) The Superdeluxe ultimate coil looks interesting though, I really liked the Vivid.
If you bye a Smashpot it comes with a Torque Cap Compliance knob under the fork.. Pretty sure that's preload...so yes preload helps massively.. My Opinoin Only.
Preload does NOT change the rate of a liner rate coil spring. The rate of the spring is demonstrated by the gradient of the slope on the graphs - adding preload offsets the line on the graph BUT they remain parallel thus the rate is the same. The offset = an increase in force, preload, is achieved by compressing the spring reducing the effective length of the coil, it still has the same block height (fully compressed) and the same ultimate load - force to reach this. Not a rant just engineering mechanics 101 (textbook is on the shelf from eons ago lol)
In terms of this application it does change the relative stiffness or resistance of the spring. (Relative to your bodyweight) as long as the stroke of the spring allows for the extra millimetres of preload. But yes you’re right it won’t magically change the springs base rate. Hyperthetical; If you preload a 400lb spring with 6mm preload, thats approx 50lb or more of force already applied to the spring. So to compress that spring 1 inch from there will take closer to 450lb of force. Which is your relative starting point because within the shock you’ve already added travel to the spring through preload. Not that you can add 6mm of preload to a bike shock, just an example to show whats in my head.
@@mtbtelly5522 the slope of the graph remains the same. adding 400 lb will always give 1 inch of sag. 800lb= 2 inches, 1200lb = 3 inches. You have to remember that a) the bike spends most of it's time at sag and b) the sagged spring will be the same length regardless of preload. You can think of the preload adjuster as moving the body of the shock relative to the spring. The spring is always in the same position relative to the frame and it will always compress to the same weight under a given load. You're effectively adjusting the ride height of the bike. The offset line in the graph can be thought of in 2 different ways. One way is that at every point in the travel, the spring has 100lb more force. (6mm on a 400 spring is around 90lb, not 50lb as it is close to 1/4 of an inch) The other is that at the same force, the spring will sit 6mm higher. The thing here is that you can't confuse force with rate. It might need 90lb more force to reach the same point in the travel at any travel, but you aren't suddenly heavier. You are applying the same load to the shock, so if you apply 6mm preload the shock will simply sit 6mm higher at the same spring rate of 400lb/inch. This may help visualize it. Notice how the same weight still compresses the spring the same amount, the only difference is that the weight is held higher. In your example, you are forgetting that you preloaded the spring 6mm already, which you need to include in the 490lb measurement. 1 inch will take 490lb total force because you have already compressed it 6mm, so the total compression is over one inch. The spring rate through the stroke is the same, the only difference is the extra initial force at top out.
To add to that, preload can be used in moderation to help get the right amount of sag. Adding 2mm of preload will reduce sag by 2mm, because the spring is offset by 2mm. So i guess you were half right about being able to use preload to adjust for a slightly heavier rider, because if the bike is sitting too low you can raise it. THis increase in ride height can feel like a stiffer spring, however you will find the same load will always compress it the same amount. When you add preload, the increase in breakaway force is the same as the increase in bottom out force. In contrast, when changing spring rate there is no change in initial force (the 0 point) but there is a big change in bottom out force. sorry for the massive fucking essay lol I'm looking at getting one of these shocks instead of my custom tuned super deluxe air
@@mtbtelly5522 this blog covers it well - look at the graph - a higher starting force does not mean stiffer, it's just more initial load is required to initiate motion ie. Heavier rider needing more preload to get the right sag - once the force is in motion it responds at the same rate. Good conversations to have ;) bikeco.com/coil-spring-tuning-basics/
Im quite new to biking when it comes to suspension and stuff, and I got a used 2019 Slash 8, but I’m thinking about changing to coil shock because if ridden a friends bike with a coil and I like it a lot more. Does anyone know if I can switch from a 230x57,5 Trunnion to a normal 230x57,5? Would be a great help!
I’m pretty sure you can, you just need to buy the appropriate upper and maybe lower axle and spacing hardware, so you can mount it. That bike I think is perfect for a coil apart from its seattube height on the large
I’m not sure I want a bike with more than a 20% progressive frame. My early thoughts have been that a bike between 15 and 20% progression have shown me the best suspension setup outcomes. I changed that to 15-25 to allow for things I hadn’t yet learned. Now I own a bike that is I believe around 27% prog (2021 Slash) and I believe that progression hinders the ability to find an optimal setup relative to what I look for. Which is efficiency and compliance
@@mtbtelly5522 yeah I’m not up with leverage ratios but I know in the motocross world the mrp springs are great and I hear they make great progressive springs for mtb’s also
I requested the same with that shock so I assume they’re the same. This bkie is much more progressive so the shocks perform differently and have required different spring rates. Maybe I’m just too picky haha
@@mtbtelly5522 I have the same shock on my bike and had it tuned to a lower compression tune. It stills feels too firm to me though. I will eventually have to track down shims and tear into it myself.
I'm running a 230x65 bomber on mine with the standard hardware. You need the bolts for a slash 7 from trek and the right bushings. I got mine from offset bushings but just standard drilled.
just needs a revalve for the rebound. Crack it open add a couple .15s on the rebound stack should be good to go Can convert ifp to a schrader valve fill www.shockcraft.co.nz/faux-ifp-valve-stem-kit-shockcraft.html
@@mtbtelly5522 Fox actually document what all the shim stacks in there are. Should be on the Fox site somewhere. Should make it pretty easy to move from medium (if that's whats in there) to firm. Maybe cyclinic thought you wanted light compression and light rebound haha
just go get yourself a norco a2 sight. And take the spacer out of the 52.5 shock and make it 55mm, or put a 55mm coil on it (giving 157mm travel) and a 170mm fork (63.7 head angle in a large) up front and call it a day :) the float x2 copes way better and dosent need to be loaded with tokens like the super deluxe does. Also i sorted my forks and got the bike singing now bro. it was Fucking CAKED in grease. on both positive and negative side. there woulda been 1.5 volume spacers worth of grease in the pos+ side and half a volume spacers worth on the negative side. cant belive thats how they come from factory.
@@mtbtelly5522 yeah a got a photo on my phone. It looks like piston was just dunked in a 60L drum of grease. Fully cracked Both sides BAD! Like to the point that the whole part of my piston looked double the size
@@mtbtelly5522 yeah it’s heaps better. The bike feels so much more balanced now too because it’s sitting taller in front Because I can put more PSI in it with out it feeling harsh. I’m surprised how much better the rear end feels now because it feels like the bikes sitting in better. And fluttering over the small stuff rather then see sawing back and forth.
@@mtbtelly5522 just wanted to say that if you end up opening the compression all the way and closing the rebound, it usually is a sign of a being oversprung. The Bomber is a great shock once dialled in.
I've got the Sprindex. It actually works, eliminates the need for any more preload than necessary and allows you to perfect your spring-rate, assuming you know what you're after. It's also light and makes the bottom-end a bit more progressive. Awesome product.
I totally see your point with the preload here, and I agree, but I do think that adding (excessive) preload increases harshness when riding over chatter. Sort of makes it feel like an air-spring in a way; hard at the start of the stroke, then soft, with the exception of a ramp-up at the end.. But if you're satisfied with the outcome you get with preload, then run that setup and it doesn't matter what others say, as long as it is effective for your riding.
hi, I'm trying to mount the same shock absorber on my trek slash 8 2020. I'm in doubt about the metric, only the 230x60 is sold. While the current shock absorber is fitted with 230x57.5. Did you find any problems with the assembly? Which metric did you choose?
Not sure how tall you are, but I think that 29 is always superior. Front and rear. I really like how 29 rolls over stuff so smoothly and I personally haven't found any negatives with it, other than the fact that it might be a bit less nimble, but that can be overcome easily by just having good technique and using more force to do whatever you're trying to do on your bike.
One of the only reasons why I think "mullet" is good in general is "assbuzz", never happens to me as I'm on the taller side (190cm), but I see it being a problem for some shorter people under certain circumstances.
And of course 27,5 can be a lot of fun and that's also a good reason to run smaller wheels, but if we talk performance, 29 any day for me.
Hi, can't decide if it's better to get a cane creek double barrel air il with all of its adjustments, or a marzocchi bomber cr for 50$ more. I ride mostly trails like the one you ride, so i think a coil would be ideal, but i'm worried that the stock tune on the bomber might not feel good, what do you think will feel better over tough stuff? A well tuned air shock, or a not so well tuned coil? Thank you 👍
A well tuned shock will always be more enjoyable than one not set up well whether its air or coil. I’d be reluctant to get the db air il if its not the newer Kitsuma model. I’m currently on a Kitsuma coil and I love the ease and convenience of the finger dials. The performance is great as well. That said I had plenty of fun on the bomber, but the tunability and range from the Kitsuma absolutely wins for me
Nice video again, Telly! Hope you can get a Rune for testing again, but this time with a coil shock 😊
Thanks mate! Rune with a coil and 29 up front might be the bees knees
@@mtbtelly5522 I actually have a Titan with a smaller wheel in back, it's an absolute weapon. Feels super dialled with the small rear wheel and the bike works well in both low or high mode. Want to try coil shock next
nsmb.com/articles/banshee-titan-review-part-two/
have a squiz
@@spoon929 does the titan have a high and low option?
@@mtbtelly5522 Yep the dropouts can be mounted in 2 positions giving something like 1/2 a degree adjustment. Initially i had them in Low for full 29, then when i went to mullet I popped them in High which gives you almost identical geo to 29 Low. On a whim i decided to try the dropouts in Low as mullet, so lower and slacker than stock. Combined with a 180 fork and DH tires this thing is crazy at the bike park. Pedal strikes aren't too bad but I think when i ride flatter and rockier trails i might go back to high, but keep it in mullet
@@mtbtelly5522 sounds great! You think I should try once a 29“ Wheel on the Front of my Rune?
Makes me think if an air shock maybe has it's advantages. Could be a better choice if you fall in between spring rates?
An air shock has the potential to be as good or better than a coil in most scenarios. But the consistency of a spring is unmatched. Performance alone I’ve had the best from air shocks, but the varying spring rate due to temperature is a flaw which can be mitigated through airing your shocks up with nitrogen to minimise the variations. The coil is far superior in that aspect but everything else leans towards air
F = a(x) + b
F is force at which the spring is pushing back
x is the travel
a is the spring rate
b is the preload
They are different thing. Getting to sag with preload won't give much more resistance down the travel. Exactly equal to the preload you put in actually. Going up a spring rate will give a lot more resistance deep in the travel because you're changing the literal rate of the spring curve.
Both can be usefull to get the overall spring curve you like. I don't ride very hard, so adding preload for me may not be too bad because i may not need more resistance in the travel.
Sounds like you need a shock with independent circuits to get the setup you want. On the CR the compression and rebound shim stacks are independently adjustable but still exist on the same circuit. As you found you can get them to alter tune for each but any change you make to the shim configuration will affect both high and low speed, and both comp. and rebound. Time to start saving for a DHX2, Storia, DBcoilIL, etc.
Do you know much about the new cane creek kitsuma? I’m thinking it will be a good one to try
Surely not, as the compression shim stack is completely closed on the rebound phase and as such it does not matter how soft or stiff it is?
@@mtbtelly5522 I stick to Fox. Haven't mess with anything from CC but the DB.(too many horror stories) The Superdeluxe ultimate coil looks interesting though, I really liked the Vivid.
@@-phos- i liked the vivid as well. I’m thinkings Ohlins or EXT could be the go
Did you use Trek's trunnion to standard bolt they sell? I want to put a coil shock on my Slash, but don't want to pay an extra $80 just for two bolts
Yeah I bought the upper and lower bolts from trek, they were about 80 bucks for the pair.
Yeah, best not to use any preload on the springs. There is a great video on it from Vorsprung!
@@dezzydiamond7121 hahaha nah bro I’m good haha
@@dezzydiamond7121 good to see people on the internet can still sense sarcasm haha
If you bye a Smashpot it comes with a Torque Cap Compliance knob under the fork..
Pretty sure that's preload...so yes preload helps massively..
My Opinoin Only.
Nope. That knob for smashpot is to adjust hydraulic bottom out resistance for last 50mm of travel. Nothing to do with preload.
I can see a banshee rune V3 replacing your trek soon
Preload does NOT change the rate of a liner rate coil spring.
The rate of the spring is demonstrated by the gradient of the slope on the graphs - adding preload offsets the line on the graph BUT they remain parallel thus the rate is the same.
The offset = an increase in force, preload, is achieved by compressing the spring reducing the effective length of the coil, it still has the same block height (fully compressed) and the same ultimate load - force to reach this.
Not a rant just engineering mechanics 101 (textbook is on the shelf from eons ago lol)
In terms of this application it does change the relative stiffness or resistance of the spring. (Relative to your bodyweight) as long as the stroke of the spring allows for the extra millimetres of preload. But yes you’re right it won’t magically change the springs base rate. Hyperthetical; If you preload a 400lb spring with 6mm preload, thats approx 50lb or more of force already applied to the spring. So to compress that spring 1 inch from there will take closer to 450lb of force. Which is your relative starting point because within the shock you’ve already added travel to the spring through preload. Not that you can add 6mm of preload to a bike shock, just an example to show whats in my head.
@@mtbtelly5522 the slope of the graph remains the same. adding 400 lb will always give 1 inch of sag. 800lb= 2 inches, 1200lb = 3 inches. You have to remember that a) the bike spends most of it's time at sag and b) the sagged spring will be the same length regardless of preload. You can think of the preload adjuster as moving the body of the shock relative to the spring. The spring is always in the same position relative to the frame and it will always compress to the same weight under a given load. You're effectively adjusting the ride height of the bike.
The offset line in the graph can be thought of in 2 different ways. One way is that at every point in the travel, the spring has 100lb more force. (6mm on a 400 spring is around 90lb, not 50lb as it is close to 1/4 of an inch) The other is that at the same force, the spring will sit 6mm higher. The thing here is that you can't confuse force with rate. It might need 90lb more force to reach the same point in the travel at any travel, but you aren't suddenly heavier. You are applying the same load to the shock, so if you apply 6mm preload the shock will simply sit 6mm higher at the same spring rate of 400lb/inch. This may help visualize it. Notice how the same weight still compresses the spring the same amount, the only difference is that the weight is held higher.
In your example, you are forgetting that you preloaded the spring 6mm already, which you need to include in the 490lb measurement. 1 inch will take 490lb total force because you have already compressed it 6mm, so the total compression is over one inch. The spring rate through the stroke is the same, the only difference is the extra initial force at top out.
To add to that, preload can be used in moderation to help get the right amount of sag. Adding 2mm of preload will reduce sag by 2mm, because the spring is offset by 2mm. So i guess you were half right about being able to use preload to adjust for a slightly heavier rider, because if the bike is sitting too low you can raise it. THis increase in ride height can feel like a stiffer spring, however you will find the same load will always compress it the same amount. When you add preload, the increase in breakaway force is the same as the increase in bottom out force. In contrast, when changing spring rate there is no change in initial force (the 0 point) but there is a big change in bottom out force.
sorry for the massive fucking essay lol I'm looking at getting one of these shocks instead of my custom tuned super deluxe air
@@mtbtelly5522 this blog covers it well - look at the graph - a higher starting force does not mean stiffer, it's just more initial load is required to initiate motion ie. Heavier rider needing more preload to get the right sag - once the force is in motion it responds at the same rate.
Good conversations to have ;)
bikeco.com/coil-spring-tuning-basics/
@@GLOBc thats a solid write up, cheers for the info!
Im quite new to biking when it comes to suspension and stuff, and I got a used 2019 Slash 8, but I’m thinking about changing to coil shock because if ridden a friends bike with a coil and I like it a lot more. Does anyone know if I can switch from a 230x57,5 Trunnion to a normal 230x57,5? Would be a great help!
I’m pretty sure you can, you just need to buy the appropriate upper and maybe lower axle and spacing hardware, so you can mount it. That bike I think is perfect for a coil apart from its seattube height on the large
@@mtbtelly5522 thanks a lot!
Sounds like the new patrol is made for you
I’m not sure I want a bike with more than a 20% progressive frame. My early thoughts have been that a bike between 15 and 20% progression have shown me the best suspension setup outcomes. I changed that to 15-25 to allow for things I hadn’t yet learned. Now I own a bike that is I believe around 27% prog (2021 Slash) and I believe that progression hinders the ability to find an optimal setup relative to what I look for. Which is efficiency and compliance
@@mtbtelly5522 yeah I’m not up with leverage ratios but I know in the motocross world the mrp springs are great and I hear they make great progressive springs for mtb’s also
How did you tune the bomber on the patrol? Did you get it right on that bike? Perhaps you should copy that tune exactly.
I requested the same with that shock so I assume they’re the same. This bkie is much more progressive so the shocks perform differently and have required different spring rates. Maybe I’m just too picky haha
@@mtbtelly5522 I have the same shock on my bike and had it tuned to a lower compression tune. It stills feels too firm to me though. I will eventually have to track down shims and tear into it myself.
@@ashkonsenaati8530 yeah its a funny shock. I’m not yet convinced the have a balanced tune in the standard configurations
Hi, if anyone can help would love to run a coil i have a 21 Slash Large says its a 230 x62.5 trunnoin, what coil would fit?
I'm running a 230x65 bomber on mine with the standard hardware. You need the bolts for a slash 7 from trek and the right bushings. I got mine from offset bushings but just standard drilled.
Should try out ext storia or cane creek kitsuma. More adjustabilty at your level.
I would absolutely love to try an EXT Storia. I’ve ridden briefly on one and it felt very refined
Maybe you need to spend little more money on more high end coil shock to find the adjustment ... ?
I’m contemplating a purchase
Consider Sprindex spring
Got zero notification for this one.
I been slackin!
just needs a revalve for the rebound. Crack it open add a couple .15s on the rebound stack should be good to go
Can convert ifp to a schrader valve fill www.shockcraft.co.nz/faux-ifp-valve-stem-kit-shockcraft.html
@@dezzydiamond7121 Yeah ive had multiple super deluxes with underfilled IFPs. That valve should allow for easy rebuilds too
Ahhh thanks man! Might be the go to get in there and tune it myself
@@mtbtelly5522 Fox actually document what all the shim stacks in there are. Should be on the Fox site somewhere. Should make it pretty easy to move from medium (if that's whats in there) to firm. Maybe cyclinic thought you wanted light compression and light rebound haha
@@dezzydiamond7121 thanks for that, thats something I’ve not considered at all in the past. My house mate has the tool so I’ll have a play with it
just go get yourself a norco a2 sight. And take the spacer out of the 52.5 shock and make it 55mm, or put a 55mm coil on it (giving 157mm travel) and a 170mm fork (63.7 head angle in a large) up front and call it a day :)
the float x2 copes way better and dosent need to be loaded with tokens like the super deluxe does.
Also i sorted my forks and got the bike singing now bro. it was Fucking CAKED in grease. on both positive and negative side. there woulda been 1.5 volume spacers worth of grease in the pos+ side and half a volume spacers worth on the negative side. cant belive thats how they come from factory.
Disgusting hey. Get some pics?.
The sight set up like that would be baller
@@mtbtelly5522 yeah a got a photo on my phone. It looks like piston was just dunked in a 60L drum of grease. Fully cracked Both sides BAD! Like to the point that the whole part of my piston looked double the size
@@chadsugden411 thats terrible. Completely different fork now
@@mtbtelly5522 yeah it’s heaps better.
The bike feels so much more balanced now too because it’s sitting taller in front Because I can put more PSI in it with out it feeling harsh.
I’m surprised how much better the rear end feels now because it feels like the bikes sitting in better.
And fluttering over the small stuff rather then see sawing back and forth.
@@chadsugden411 so good when everythings balanced. Fox assembly line must be an absolute joke
You absolutely need preload. Dirt bikes use preload to obtain perfect sag heights, static and rider sag!
Trek said bomber cr is not recomended for slash. Better get rs coil.
I wonder why they’d say that? With the right tune it does a killer job, and has adequate clearance
it's easy to remove hs just turn the dial off with a 6mm allen
This doesn’t have that adjustment
@@mtbtelly5522 oh thought the bomer coil did as my dhx2 and float x2 as well as my dpx2 has that option but dpx2 internal
@@alexkirby280 nah just basic adjustment on the bomber
@@mtbtelly5522 that’s a crap shock then
In other words you are saying this shock is a piece of junk.
Nah turns out I was just oversprung and running a compromised setup. Now on a 350 and a 375 and the rebound stroke is perfect
@@mtbtelly5522 good to know. Thanks.
@@mtbtelly5522 just wanted to say that if you end up opening the compression all the way and closing the rebound, it usually is a sign of a being oversprung. The Bomber is a great shock once dialled in.