StarCraft 2: The Battlecruiser Base Race!
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
- An epic game of professional Zerg vs Terran in StarCraft 2 between uThermal and Bly.
Starcraft 2 balance update: • StarCraft 2: Balance U...
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StarCraft 2 is a military science fiction real-time strategy video game developed and released by Blizzard Entertainment.
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Lowko: Get rid of the infestor...
Me: Sold already!
You're right, free units in general are problematic. Remember mass swarm host? Now that was a disaster. Blizzard ended up nerfing it, just like they nerfed the raven too when Terrans were doing mass raven. And now we have mass infestor. These units are fine in a support role, but not as a main army. And the upcoming "nerf" (making infested terrans half as numerous, but almost twice as powerful) won't fundamentally solve that problem either. Maybe making them more supply heavy would help. After all, if a lurker or a ravager can cost 3 supply, then an infestor should cost at least that much.
Don't infestors cost 3 supply already?
making them beefier but fewer targets makes it easier to counter with late game units that hit hard but slowly
it also makes it take longer for the mass infected terran throw (since you have to wait more for every unit)
They are frail and costly. 3 supply is to much. Spells just need nerfing to make them less game changing. Such as certain spell cost more energy and another spell not able to even target a certain class.
@@jasonlynch282 many ppl seem to miss the frail part, they have 90 HP, that's the same as a hellion except that their armored trait is more likely to matter since most units in armies are anti armor
@@rompevuevitos222 With the armor, they're basically the same as hellbats and hellbats can take quite a beating.
I like the camera work you've done here, zoom in and rotations. Makes it more interesting to follow!
I think those "2 lost nukes" were actually lost nukes inside destroyed silos, not used. So count may be correct there.
Aah, nice catch. Didn’t think of that.
@@LowkoTV I think it is when the nuke is called in but the strike is ended before it lands.
@@drkilljoy4100 Then it would show up a lot more often.
pl?
there was a game a while back in which (I think it was Lowko) the caster was counting the nukes and keeping an eye on the count throughout the game. nukes showed up in the lost units tab without any silos being lost, thus it is most likely canceled nukes, or ghosts lost while nukes are in transit. it really should count all nukes fired, as they were built and not around anymore. same should go for banelings or anything else that costs minerals.
People sure do love battlecruisers now. I couldn't be happier
It's hilarious you think Blizzard are nerfing the infestor. They buffed it.
It’s clearly a nerf.
@@LowkoTV The units are more than twice as strong so the energy doubling is actually less than enough. There are fewer of them with more HP so AoE spells and tanks are less effective against them. Neural is free and automatically unlocked. They got 1 range removed except so did all the units that counter infestors. Where is the nerf?
@@Thompson8200 Exactly my thoughts. It's not a nerf, but a buff. -1 range is nice, but its repaid with free neural i mean wtf :D ? Double energy cost but double strong units. What nerf we talkin about mate? :D
@@loecorristo555 The part where it's clearly a nerf? Having them be stronger but only usable once before needing a long time to build the energy back up is objectively worse than them being weaker but able to be used way more often. Now you're forced to go all in, because if your opponent just pulls back and lets them die, you're screwed with a bunch of low energy units that aren't going to be contributing to the fight. Like sure, on paper they're stronger if you just assume everyone is terrible and just attack moves straight at each other, but that's not how this game works.
@@lizgayle14 Liz, I see your point, but this game is the proof that ghosts have minimal chance to effectively use EMP thus eliminating infestors. Players are protecting them infestors way too good to let this happen.And as you said, it needs just one all-in to decide the fate of a game, just as we have seen in this game at the end.Honestly, I have to agree with lowko, there should be a limit for spellcaster units in this game, as they should be support units, not armies on their own, which can easily decide the fate of a game...
*Can you tell me how a flying biological bug,* that's the size of an overlord, is SO FREAKING GOOD against giant, 3-skycrapers-put-together size, metal, interstellar combat armored Battlecruiser.
*Can you tell me how a deformed worm with radioactive butt,* with DOZENS of terrans stored in his insides for future use, are able to launch a tentacle far into the sky, get in range of the Battlecruiser, get inside a ventilation system (although it is a SPACE ship and shouldnt have vents leading outside), then this tentacle manages to find both the ONLY control room on this gigantic ship AND the only loser named Joe who's in posession of the entire ship's fucking controls........ and then brainwash him
*So many questions.... So little answers...*
damn dude that's deep
Because it's a videogame and therefore the lore and the game are totally separate. Most game mechanics make zero sense when you try to apply them to the lore. Like how the fuck does a marine shoot down an entire floating city that is the mothership with nothing but a rifle? Nothing in thia game makes sense if you try to apply logic to it.
Don't forget: Joe takes 6 supply. So it should be easier to find him.
@@dimolto731 apparently a fat f*** that flies a battle cruiser. :p
@@dimolto731 Joes Mama
The last ten minutes confused me. I thought Terran huge economic advantage would let Uthermal win easily when Bly decided to just sit back and build back up from eleven drones.
infestors....
19:03 Serral: How about controlling infestors with 7 hands?
Ofcoarce why not
"Zerg op" - (me, an salty terran)
A*
Just make ghosts, they counter every non-terran race.
@My Name Is Alphabet. Yeah that was a hasty counter-whining. Still no snipe no EMP, just wasting resources on nukes :/ .
@My Name Is Alphabet. Good bye! Have a nice day!
a*
"OMG infestors again can't believe it Lowko!"
Laughed pretty hard when he mentioned ghosts countering infestors. If the infestor mind controls a single ghost he can emp all the ghosts rendering them all useless.
also infestors can fungle blindly to reveal.
those cheeky early BC warps got me dying. not chance the even sneeze at them before they say goodbye
New balance literally doesn't even nerf infestors, might actually make them better.
Hey lowko i just bought ur voice in the shop so i can always hear you :D
Thank you!
Nerf infestors, make brood lords have an option for flying broodling-like scourge, or corruptors have two upgrade paths like mutas in brood war
@Optical Clarity fuck devourers. terrible unit. And devourers would have same role as corrupters. Bring back scourges.
Buff corruptors. Currently they're a boring unit. They have a single anti-air attack and a single anti-structure ability. They have no interesting upgrades and just feel boring. Name a single other unit in SC2 (that costs gas) that is as boring as the Corruptor.
@@Mandragara Void Ray? Tempest? Viking? Ultralisk?
@@mancubwwa Noone uses Void Rays, they also need a rework. Tempests are pretty boring I agree, but they do have their insane range and bonus to massive that make them a 'bit' unique. Vikings can land and have crazy high DPS vs mechanical, so more going on than corruptor. Ultralisks are boring and also suck and need a rework, bring back charge maybe?
@Generic Guy My Mum would be a terrible SC2 unit, I agree.
Big surprise Zerg won
Smart move Lowko. Predict salty comments to prevent them
It didn't really work though... that much.
The worst part was watching as all of the Terran firepower was being used to fight the broodlings and the infested terrans; AKA the free cannon fodder. All of the actual zerg units were completely fine, just hanging back. Maybe Yamato Cannon needs to be AoE. It seems impossible to target priority targets with the zerg all piled on top of each other.
Zerg is OP, I mean, just look at that bullshiet infestor. That thing right there is a badly designed unit, that piece of shit literally counter everything and anything in this game
@@TheBikeOnTheMoon I once played a game I had a set of 24 Bcs and lost to loke 10 infesfer it's so bullcrap
Zerg late game is too strong, if that ending isn’t proof of concept I don’t know what is, there was no contest.
I agree that zerg has an inelegant anti air solution at the moment but getting rid of the infestor would cause other problems. You'd be down to just a single spellcaster, the viper, while each other race has two. Zerg's lategame army would also be much, much easier to control if you just need to A move a bunch of scourge. Against mass scourge I guess toss would need a decent amount of storms and archons, and terrans would be forced to have a bunch of thors on splash mode. I might suggest a "scourge lord" type unit that attacks with expiring scourge, and then give it fungal, or some kind of ground splash damage spell so it's not entirely defenseless against ground units but still requires some apm to use. If it's slow then at least they'll be difficult to position correctly and players will become a lot more reliant on vipers late game to pull in capital ships or thors.
Towards the end if he jumped the BCs to the zerg base in the middle while being attacked he could've won a base race. There were only 2 hatches, and they were already damaged by nukes. Either way great game!
I love how they nerfed the Raven because they dont like people being able to win with mass spellcasters yet here we are with the infestor since wings of liberty....
Raven wasn't even a good spell-caster. Zerg just didn't want to move their drones vs auto-turret hence auto-turrets got nerfed and it is the only spell that it can do, the dorito cannon used to do damage but that killed too many infestors, Zerg didn't know how to split although Terran has had to split vs zerg since brood war. Nowadays, they move their drones when a reaper shows up and that thing can take 2 drones before dying to a queen.
Zerg do not have weak anti-air. Corruptors are the strongest air superiority fighters in the game, and they siege buildings, AND they turn into brood lords. You build a metric tonne of them, turn some into brood lords, float them over some ground forces like infestors, then when the enemy suicides to kill your brood lords to stop the siege well hey, part of the vanguard pays a small fee and without using production structures they *heal and turn into brood lords.*
It's ridiculous. Don't even *pretend* zerg don't have good anti-air. Come on.
By using a thermostat, you can turn up the heat.
Firebat approves.
good joke
Yesterday I was like nonstop hitting F5, then I checked out twitter and...oh ok nvm.
Glad you're back, I hope you're doing well.
What needs to happen with the nuke is that it needs a fail safe point, if its "channeled" for 5 seconds it WILL hit but not exactly where aimed... make the hit damage higher if fully "channeled" and less if ghost is killed before full attack.
How about giving Hydralisks the frenzy ability from Heart of the Swarm campaign which temporarily allows them to attack attack faster? Or how about allowing them to attack up to 2 air units at ounce? Or just increased damage against air?
Lowko: Oh the ghost didn't die
Ghost: Fine I ll do it myself
32:10 here you go. You're welcome
Dude, that creep spread!
My life just got nuked, so thanks for the help, Lowko, you are a good guy
Infestor: I like the idea except for all of it. But do add Scrouge back for sure
but then it will be almost the same. it take forever and tones of rss and suply to construct few capital ships. Bam, 20 scurges that cost total of 1 capital ship and 1/3 of the time to make them all - and destroyes all your skyp army. terran suply goes from 200 to 60, while zergs losts 20 or less and still has major army behind.
Blys creep is lovely. one of the very few (even for pros!) which keeps it up and drags queens along to do it right. 90% of the map are his.
I keep hearing "Skytoss" is OP, but I almost never see Skytoss win anymore. It's like 2 out of 10. Usually games won by 'toss are with warp prisms, lol.
Abduct and neural parasite are a bitch for the golden armada. BC yamato and then jump away are a pain on those flying toss boys. :p
Hey Lowko! Thank you for all your content over the past few years, I love Starcraft 2 and your CZcams videos have gotten me through a tough time in my life. I have really just begun to figure out how to be a supporter, you and Winter have provided an ease after each day. Don't stop the content. - peace, Bryte. p.s. No pressure lol.
@Lowko I was just thinking about your changes BEFORE you even said them lol. I have an addition as well -- Add a Queen's nest that allows you to mutate Queens into Brood War Queens. It brings back Ensnare which is a non-damaging Fungal, Brood Lings and INFEST COMMAND CENTER!!!
ideas on on replacement unit if infestor gets nerfed or removed even: Scourge is a good idea for dealing with strong air units. For ground/spellcaster, they can try to bring back the Zerg Defiler.
do you think that increasing the cost of infestors might "Nerf" them enough to make the other zerg anti-air options a bit more appealing? I mean : Infestors are Top-Tier support units but their combat abilities are non-existant, so increasing the cost might make hydras a bit more appealing... Maybe increasing hydras damage a bit might help in the process too, what do you think guys ?
As far as nerfing infestors, I think being able to cast while burrowed is quite overpowered. Neural range is maybe to big too.
That’s some awfully specific pontification :D
All Terran needs vs Infestors is the old raven missile. It got taken out because it was slow, expensive and did less damage than a baneling and the other races refused to split their army. But put two or three of those on a stack of infestors and maybe, we can kill a few of them.
Love your content brother! Thanks for all the GG's you have broadcasted over the years ^^
Everybody who plays coop: Scourge are anti-fun
Lowko: We nEeD ScOuRge iN MuLtiPlAyEr
I'm just curious, why didn't he use the snipe ability of the ghost to kill the army of the zerg slowly but surely than throw nuclear?
Ikr? He should had used Sniper Ghosts to escort the Nuke Ghost
I think the problem with the infestors is that, they have abilitys that basicly work in any situation.
Id say Nerf or remove Neurol since Vipers got a realy powerful single target ability also.
Kind of make infestors and vipers situational
I think the problem with infestors (and Zerg spellcasters in general) is that they are not "situational" as their presence are needed in any fight as Zerg lack the CC and anti-air option that are effective. Meanwhile, the other spellcasters in the game are more situational, so you don't see them as much. So you can either buff zerg anti-air and AOE option (banelings can be counter with splits, and nobody use Ultralisks because it's garbage) so that the zerg players don't have to always use infestor to fulfill those position, or make the other spellcasters in the game a more generalize unit.
There was a period of time when Zerg had no detection and Uthermal was able to put ghosts all over the map. I'm really surprised he didn't go hunting for an EMP on the infestors; it looked like he could have gotten them a few times.
Would the following strategy have worked for the terran end game?
- send the fleet of BCs hunting after the enemy
- have 2 cloaked ghosts trailing behind and spit apart
- upon spotting the enemy, simultaneously launch Yamato blasts against the corruptors and call nukes down in front of the BCs
- as soon as the canons fire, tactical jump the BCs back to safety
- the ghosts being behind and split make it likely at least one nuke lands
- if the enemy corruptors engage the BCs, they risk getting caught in blast
- if they save even one BC from destruction, the nukes will have paid for themselves
Close one Lowko, almost said "Bigly" at 24:24 :D
Shoulda sent ghosts with max energy so after launching a nuke, they can use EMP before dying
I don't think you need to delete entirely infestors.
The problem is that infestors do everything:
-terran bio (fungal
-terran mech ( neural)
-sky toss (anti-air/Inf.Terr.)
I really think that giving infestors 1 purpose would be beneficial for the game.They are plenty of ways to do so.
You could , for example, Remove/heavily nerf Inf.Terr. and give zerg another anti air like scourge
Or maybe buff the other spellcasters so that they are being used more? (nobody complains about the high templars being used in every game either)
The problem is that if you do that, every race will have its broken spell caster and the game will play exclusively around infestors H.T and ghosts
24:24 "bigly" lol. The lowko shade.
You can't delete infestor because Zerg lategame relies on spellcasters (and free units, which is kind of like spellcasting) to get cost efficient fights. Should simply remove infested Terran entirely, don't change the rest of infestor, and improve anti air somewhere else like Lowko suggested
In my younger days, I was a Zergherder.
I think thermy was too conservative with the battle cruisers. When he killed that base in the bottom left he could have yamotoed 7 or 8 corruptors and gotten out fine, the infestors were way in the back
What about this: The infestor is like a carrier with infested terran, and has fungal growth, and you have to spend money to build the infested terran, which are still good at AA. Then you just get rid of neural parasite because it is a stupid ability. I know this is stupid, but basically Zerg needs to have to PAY for units. They have way too many free units, and it makes it so they can just bank up 10K resources and replace their entire army instantly and win. MAKE ZERG PAY!!!!!!!
love your vids man, if I had to watch one series of videos for the rest of my life it’d be your commentaries bro !
I like the idea of making scourge a thing. But I don't think that the investor should be removed.... But it differently needs some tweaks. Make it so that scourge is created from zerglings after a banling nest and lair has been made.
While we are at it make it so adepts can shoot at air with 6 range so that the mutalisk can be buffed with extra health. Who misses ling ban muta!!!!!
I should state that this is coming from a Toss player so I don't know the most about this. However I hate how hard mutas are to counter as they seem much easier for the player using them than the opponent countering them. So making a much easier unit to tech into to help counter them so you don't instantly get killed by them would be very much appreciated.
I have point out that I really do not get the thought process of uthermal in the closing clash. Now keep in mind, I do understand there are APM limitations at play here, but: 1. Why was he waiting with those Yamatos so long? He could have rained them sooner. 2. What did he use the ghosts for anyway? I might have missed it, but I didn't see EMP blanket the infestors or snipes fired at any units.
Can somebody explain please?
An upgrade for zerglings to make them free end game would be interesting
What would have hapened if terran got some extra thors for anti air and used emp instead of nukes?
Nothing sadly the investors are so broke I played a game earlier he had like 10 to 15 infester I had like 12 ghost only used there emp amd he still just fungled and me apart
@@qberrygamz5008 uuuh, they can't use fungal without energy
A ghost gets neuraled and EMP's the other ghosts. Then infestor neurals thors and they kill each other. Then infestor fungals the ghosts.
@@jasonlynch282 If an infestor has time to use neural + emp your ghosts before you do it yourself then you are the one being sloppy
And to regarding neural, don't make many high cost units if your oponent is going heavy into infestors, ghosts should be the most costly unit in that situation, zerg's only real AoE is fungal and if you're using your EMPs
If you get your few thors in neural then snipe the infestors doing it
@@rompevuevitos222 the ghost I neural never sees me as I'm burrowed. Then I EMP him and his ghost friends. Rest that I say still stands. I loose maybe a few infestor when I fungal as I'm not burrowed.
I think it would be neat to morph scourges out of 'lings. Perhaps as hive tech to deal with late game air.
"Special" kinds of supply for T3 units is something I too have had the idea for a while on, to have a hard limit on how many of some kinds of units there are can make at one time so can be balanced for better.
Ya... that just feels so War Hammer 40k and not Starcraft.
Lowko talking in dutch is a meme because everyone who doesn´t understand it thinks it sounds like german but in cute and everyone who does understand it is either from the Netherlands themselfs or gets a cringe when he hears "german but mutilated".
just because only a few people can fully utilize infestor into "broken" level doesnt mean it shouldnt be nerfed. Look at Byun's reaper.
Nukes either need to be changed to a 5 second launch time or not showing a dot location.
you are insane
Perhaps instead of removing infestors, you split the ability neural parasite to a different unit perhaps even a metamorphosed infestor who loses the ability to cast his other spells. Perhaps just replacing neural parasite with a different spell entirely could be enough to help balance the unit
Ah! How exciting!
- Fight fire with the infested fire!
scourge is an op unit and even harder to balance than infestors. Cause it's much more difficult to split air unit than to split ground unit. Resulting the scourge to be either op, or too less damage and not cost efficient enough and gets ignored.
Make the ultralisk an anti air too, like shoot their kaizer blades up in the air like boomerangs.
Those nukes threw away...
Corruptor are actually very strong. Tons of hp.
Let me call it then: GG - both sides awesome!
Edit: and awesome commentating as always.
"What I have to you today is a Terran vs Zerg" + 30min = *Skips to the end of the video just to listen Lowko's excuses for why Zerg won again the late game with infestors*. Having battlecruisers on the title got me excited, but I'm glad I dodged watching this one.
Thanks for your content Lowko!
I want to see a crescent moon planetary fortress formation rush!
Can we talk about the crazy creep spread!?!?? I would have liked to see a single raven and a few BCs clearing that stuff. Probably too APM heavy in the late game though.
Came from your livestream
How about if the infestor's neural parasite ability came with an energy-cost-over-time factor on top of it's current cost, to make it a harder choice of when to cast spells, if they need all that energy to commit to mind control?
Love infestors and battle cruisers and yes he simply played the game better. Cost effective is the win, that’s usually the deal with Serral, cost verses effect, lol
Can't wait to watch it! (In school) 🙄
I still think there is more potential in nukes. What about using a small escort of marines to divert attention along with a ghost, all loaded into a medivac. Uthermal was on to something when he was herding the army. There is probably a way to nerf infestors while buffing e.g. nuke to balance late game festors
I mean, the r eason why the zerg player didn't just straight up finish off the terran player in this game is purely because of the nuke diversion ... it is extremely powerful, but a diversion without an actual attack is just delaying the inevitable. (or maybe build a few ravens to clear the creeps instead of scanning?)
Read the title as Battlecruiser Master Race)))
Lowko Sc1 scourge don't do splash dmg.
It's very discoureging to learn to play splitting bio on the ground against banes but now terrans have to do it in the air as well with unist that are waaaay slower than stimmed bio? Besides the already EXTREMLY frustrating splitting that has to be done, I think the game will be pushed even more towards the here-you-have-1,5sec-so-micro-your-heart-out-or-you-lose-the-game frustrating 'mechanic' that pushes people even more away from sc2. A hydra buff against air however would be pretty awesome I think.
BCs were played pretty well; get damage done, jump out without waiting for infestors to arrive. The base trade was also smart; definitely would have been killed there and then otherwise. But you cant played BCs against infestors without a ton of scans. Without that, his BC harras fell apart, and it was just a matter of time before the infestors worked up the courage to attack his base again. I think he played it quite well; the only thing I dont get is that high level terrans keep meming around with nukes. How are those resources and APM not better spent on EMPs? Must be something I am missing but I dont get it at all.
Noooo..lowko...please... not lose
Investors should cost less but infested Terran should make them explode and drop a bunch of eggs out.
Right now Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts are basically the same thing. Since locusts can fly anyway, make them air or ground.
They’re very different units.
Sorry, but does no one want to talk about those 200IQ nukes? The first 2 ones?
I was wondering why he placed the first nuke on basically a couple of creep tumors. But the second nuke convinced the whole zerg army to move and try and kill the ghost before hte nuke landed, putting them right in the crosshairs of the first nuke.
Because (im guessing) pro gamers look for nukes based on the value of structures and units within the blast radius, it meant that bly would not realise that he was going to move his army into the blast radius of the first nuke, because there was nothing there to blow up.
That was, until he moved his entire army.
Thermo CALCULATED that.
one wrong move and thermy lost that base trade - bly with only a baby hatch, 8 spores, 2 extractors, a bane nest and spawning pool - i'm thinking perhaps the infested terran should be its own unit for zvt, not a free one -could replace spores with burrow and be a slow moving static def - think 5 scourge could spawn when killing a greater spire
scourges delete high value air units, they are worse than infestors. instead maybe give swarm hosts an upgrade that allows them to burrow and produce scourges (either weak ones or produce them slowly).
So. I have to agree with the Scourge assessment. I also agree that the ZERG should well ZERG. It's not like the term, ZERG isn't the most used thing in history in all games. "Hey guys, our strat today is, we gonna ZERG it." Nowhere in that statement do most players think, ok so we gonna patiently pace back and forth and cast spells. Come now Blizzard.
But Also. As for Infestors. Do not delete. Maybe nerf range on Neural Parasite. But, having them bugging around to assist the Swarm makes sense. But again there needs to be SWARM aka ZERG. Then we have Vipers as someone here seems extremely unhappy with them. I think Viper is fine. Maybe they should not be able to yoink massive units. Maybe stop that since ya know the Zerg already have Corruptors that deal bonus damage vs massive. Maybe think in terms of army vs army and think casters should be support units. Not the entirety of the Army.
zerg imba. ..
love this map
Thx bro
@LowkoTV huge fan just wanted to ask if they increased the infestor cost but leave the unit power the same would that make it a better solution that a stat nerf of some kind. I feel like if the unit is more costly it would solve the problem of the numbers you could make but still have a good anti-air/utility unit.
Hydralisks could maybe have an upgrade inside the den that makes it deal +3 damage on all air and have a general +2 attack buff, though I think that may bring brood-hydra-ling into the meta and I'm not ready to gg once I see 40 hydras destroying my whole army
Poor infestor, zerg's best utility. GO SCOURGE, now that's what I call Zerg's anti air unit!
Love to see that nuke harass.