The Divisive Issue With TF2's Artstyle
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- 16 years of development can certainly change the way a game looks, especially when that game is Team Fortress 2.
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Videos featured:
Death Of An Artstyle by FunkE
A Distinctive Lack Of Team Recognition by Zesty Jesus
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
4:16 Why TF2?
5:46 The Traditionalists
8:40 The Progressivists
11:01 Outro
Tags:
art, music, deep rock galactic, gunner, lucid letters, lucid, tf2, team fortress, five nights at freddys, fnaf, video essay, lucid letters, lucid, tf2, team fortress, team fortress 2, team fortress two, team fotrees 2, tem fortress two, team fort two, tg2, taem fortress 2, team fortre too, overwatch, overwatch pve, mvm, mann vs machine, fnaf vs tf2, overwatch 2 fortress 2, team fortress two, team fotrees 2, tem fortress two, team fort two, tg2, taem fortress 2, team fortre too, overwatch, overwatch pve, mvm, mann vs machine, overwatch two, tf2 vs fnaf, fortnite, overwatch vs tf2, tf2 vs overwatch, mercy, tracer, pharah, sfm, how to play hero, bastion, symmetra, soldier, scout, spy, sniper, medic, heavy, demoman, kiriko, muselk, fortnite, challenge, evolution, documentary, minidoc, - Hry
What did you guys think? Which side do you most align with?
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EDIT: I'm sorry for butchering the Portuguese, I used Google translate and thought it was correct with my limited knowledge of Romanic languages 😔😔😔
The amount of this in this debacle might cause another world war
Ofc Old Artstyle. It was iconic and it's a shame some modern cosmetics violate it.
But again it's kinda Valves fault, as early as 2015 aka Gun Mettle Era they added cosmetic cases and weapon cases that just violated TF2 artstyle, especially skins on weapons looked bad
I am on the old arstyle team but eh, I am kinda glad people still keep the game alive, volvo sure as hell won't.
Traditional for sure, also the War pig showcase is appreciated
Although I joined the TF2 community late (2020) I am in favor of the old style. Lots of new additions are slowly tearing away at the style and character that helped make this game great. We have gotten to the point where, if TF3 were to be announced tomorrow, They would probably start from scratch with cosmetics, to fix the art style.
I personally side with The Traditionalist (even though I'm a newer player). The Progressivists just dismiss the issue, and their "counterargument" can be usually used against them. Like @BoPoe said during the live chat: "The house is already burning, let's add more coal to it"! Preserving the identity of a game is important. It can be improved and tweaked, but should never stray that far from the original vision (the TF2 we got, not the other ones). Don't make previous mistakes into excuses to continue making more. Team Fortress 2 is a game I wish I started playing sooner, and I want it to be the same thing I fell in love with for many years to come.
Agreed with you I am a new player and I also agree with you I have heard the other sides remarks and have come to the same conclusion. Sometimes also I mistake an enemy for some different thing because of a skin/cosmetic they are wearing that looks to wonky and makes them look too different from what I know as a medic, spy, soldier, or heavy. In a tf2 match you probably won't have the most time to think whether who your looking at is red or blue so putting cosmetics that make them look too different with color, shape, or just their personality can be a bit idk how to put this.
I agree, not only are the arguments of the progressivists not viable, but the new art also seems pretty ugly imo. @@blitzworldace
Most of us came here for consistent art style.
This video was very heavily slanted in their favour however
Not mentioning how
Most official TF2 content doesn't fit it's time period anyways
While bringing it up as a complaint again the more random stuff
But generally the only thing that would need to be maintained is team colours outside of that why bother
Amen
Tf2 for me has gotten more political for me, not in the sense that real politics have been brought in but more that it feels like it has its own politics and people sometimes take it to seriously.
Also great video lucid
"tf2 got me actin political"
*Too seriously*
I hate how this debate has caused somewhat of a wedge between the workshop community and the rest of the community (which I feel is partially spurred on by 1 specific youtuber who seems to have a personal vendetta against the workshop community and portrays workshoppers as being part of some shadowy evil cabal fueled by greed because they "disagree{d} with {his} sociopolitics" and banned him from their discord.) since that kind of "us vs them" narrative leads to people harassing others and other intensely toxic acts which shine badly on the TF2 community.
@@duckkingthesecond6893 what youtuber
@@skinnybuggo Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-ZESTY JESUS
"I don't have the problem, so therefore, it must not exist!"
Men when people speak out against patriarchy
@@lawendameow| 100% True
@@lawendameowbraindead and pointless to bring it up here
redditors lol
@@lawendameow we're here for tf2 not feminism and also you think tf2 players are feminists??
The part about team recognition is more than just new players not knowing who to shoot, it’s everyone. If you can’t determine which players is on which team in an instant, you become severally disadvantaged. More time it takes for you to process whether someone is an enemy or not can decide them escaping or not, them getting the first strike or not, being able to simply walk past enemies as a class that isn’t a Spy. In that sense those cosmetics can be seen as P2W mechanics as a Pyro can wear the funny costume and backpedel into a crowd in order to fool everyone on your team and then get a free kill or two.
Agreed
I got killed by a green pyro once and I was beyond pissed
for most people it's not aproblem tho
Wait thats a issue?
@@mrinsomniac2968 yup. Some people will put on a Pyro loadout that is hard to tell what team you're on, they backpedal, and no one can tell at a glance, which usually happens while fighting.
Using collaboration items as an excuse for "Valve already ruined their own art style so I can do it even worse!" isn't such a good argument in my opinion. Collab items obviously aren't meant to be canon and are just there for fun references. Should not be used as the prime example of what we can and can't do.
The argument also immediately breaks down if the person you're using it on thinks Valve can make bad cosmetics.
It is still true and even more so when there are weapons and not to mention unusual effects or killstreaks, they also screw up the artistic style of the game and no one says that they should be deleted
i forgot that batman cosmetics are community made and valve explicitly asked for them, so there you see the justification is true
Itrzsz an illogical fallacy, as per usual with all of theirsz sidesz arguments, they dont have a singular minisculerzsz mfruckingsz valid and logical claim.
I like how the super outrageous and egregious example that the valve employee gave for something that they added was the shades for demo... so surely that's justification to remove all areas of team colour and add goofy out of place garbage to the game!!!
Well, that interview is really old now, so most wacky cosmetics didn't even exist by that time.
There were even worse at the time. He mentioned those tiny glasses when the game already had horrible unfitting traditional Japanese cosmetics as promo items from whatever Asian-themed game i really don't care about lol@@BComet
I just got off a game with a pyro that changed all of his cosmetics to appear like the enemy team, it fucked with me so many times i can't even begin to think why people would allow that into the game.
lol that reminds me of that one dude who made a spy like that
If yall are having a hard time telling enemies from friendlies thats a you problem. The game literally gives you the name card over friendlies, it doesn’t do that for enemies. Its about not knowing the games mechanics, not cosmetics
I never said anything about having a hard time telling the difference@@GotPoopInMySoup
@@GotPoopInMySoup this is legit one of the dumbest thing a I’ve seen as an argument against team recognition ngl. I’m sure you are a great person but this is just a terrible way to think.
@@GotPoopInMySoup in a game where you can be deleted in an instant from some random bullshit being able to recognize people at a glance without looking at some other elements of the HUD is crucial. People dont hover their mouse to every person on their screen instead they use their eyes which can scan the screen more effectively, in a big scramble it would also not be viable because you would need to not fucking die. You diminishing the problem because you dont give a shit doesnt make it any less of a problem.
Perhaps both sides could agree that A Color Similar to Slate was a mistake and Mann Co. Orange could use a tweak.
That, and The Bitter Taste of Defeat and Lime.
Very few cosmetics actually work with it
In all honesty, the mistake was giving the community access to more "out there" paints like the neon bright pink and lime green ones, and the dark blue/green and brighter orange/yellow paints
the concept of "team colour" paints could have been used for those to fix the problem of the latter and still force the cosmetics with, let's be honest, unbelievably large paint regions, to still no matter what, abide to the team recognition issue
I think the problem with most of the community is the unwillingness to just you know converse with some degree of good faith instead of just hearing both sides out to the best of there abilities (this also applies to alot of in real world discussions)
Demonizing the opponent usually ends up making it harder to dissolve conflict or understand the opposition which ends up turning into the most stupid screaming feast i have ever had the pleasure of viewing.
TLDR: dont be stupid and hear out both sides out
It's probably because people with moderate views usually don't care to voice their views and when they do they immediately get attacked by the opposite side, radicalizing them further.
but one is blu and the other is red😨
Except the traditionalists are blocked and their comments deleted, and often their valid and constructive criticism is labeled as "harassment".
thats not a problem with tf2, thats a problem globally
It also makes it harder to give a flying fuck about any of it when both sides will, inevitably, treat you like you're with the other side by the virtue of not fully agreeing with them or not wanting to pick any sides.
No matter how good or bad the arguments are, it's hard to agree with someone who's acting like an asshole to you for one reason or another.
I think adding stuff that fits the art style will bring more creativity to the cosmetics since limitations will (usually) bring innovation.
So basically the arguments from both sides are
Tradiotionalists: "Those cosmetics ruin the artstyle of the game and can make it harder to differenciate between friend or foe "
Progressivist "LOL don't care + didn't ask"
?
That seems to be a lot of the discourse, yeah
Howdy there! Community map maker here, i really liked this video since it spoke to me, i myself am in the middle i dont really care whats added but i love the original look of tf2, per example when i was making selbyen i had to research how i could fit the norwegian look to the tf2 world and i tried my best to make it fit the best with the older maps but i did add a giant seal so maybe im not really in the middle lol.
Anyways i really liked this video and i hope to see more amazing content from ya!!
Holy shet it's the person behind the funny seal map whoaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I LOVE YOU!!!!!!
Thank you! I absolutely love Selbyen so it's awesome to see you here. I'm glad you enjoyed the video, as I put a lot of time and effort into it :)
Hahhhahaha what if you made a player destruction map with a Panda this time with the Suijin assets? JK haha unless...?
Thanks for making Selbyen! Only thing I hate about is the announcer.
"tem forte tu" being "you are strong" had me dying lol
awesome vid!
(for those who don't know, "you are strong" would be "você é forte" and "tem forte tu" would be translated to "has strong you")
or "tu és forte" in portugal
@@MaddBomberPT exactly
@@MaddBomberPT 2-fort!
Some of these arguments by the "progressivists" didn't make sense to me at times and felt immediately closer to the "traditionalist" side. Also whenever I look at older cosmetics that follow the tf2 art style my eyes feel relaxed but when I look at the newer strange none tf2 art style cosmetics my eyes just hurt.
I still remember the moment that made me a traditionalist. I forget what map it was, but there was a heavy approaching me in a dark-ish hallway. I saw his gun glowing bright blue though, so I thought "oh, he's on my team." and then he mowed me down. His gun was actually glowing purple. I couldn't tell because I'm colorblind.
FINALLY, THE SEQUEL EVERYONE WAS WAITING FOR, DEATH OF AN ARTSTYLE 2!!!
3*
what@@lampmanreal7664
@@evdestroy5304 uhh actually 🤓 it's Death Of An ArtStyle Alyx
I sort of agree. I lean to the traditionalist part because I like the team recognition and respecting the art style. A few of my favorite cosmetics blur the line between progressive and traditional, and they look great. Like the Firebrand (pyro jacket), the Alcoholic Automaton, the Purity Fist, the Mean Captain, the Person In The Iron Mask, the Bare Necessities, the Pony Express, the Breadcrab, Night Vision Gawkers, the Upgrade..
Things like that. They fit the game and environment as well as the characters they are on. And they fit the team recognition even when painted.
Great video man! I've always leaned more into the "traditionalist" side since I started playing back in like 2017, but it isn't like I cant enjoy some "silly" cosmetics once in a while. Obviously there are some exceptions where I draw the line, like the Yule Hog, Towering Patch Of Pumpkins, but for most of those "out of place cosmetics", I dont hate them, I just dont wear them!
Nope. You can either side with the traditionalist and have no cosmetics, or side with the cosmetics. No exceptions.
@@spankyjeffro5320 genuinely can't tell if this is satire or not (please be), but this sort of attitude of stuffing your ears and screaming "LALALAYOU'RE WRONGLALALALA" is not the way debates and arguements get resolved. Gotta love the bumper sticker logic with "no exceptions"
everyone brings up the whole team recognition thing as if its commonplace, but it really isnt. ive played my fair share of both casual and community servers, and i can safely say that the number of times ive seen someone's cosmetics mess with team recognition can be counted on a single hand. and even when the issue does arise, its easily adaptable. after you get tricked once, their element of surprise is completely gone from further encounters with you or anyone else they already deceived
That's the thing, people don't *want* it to be commonplace. That's why there's pushback towards those cosmetics being added. It very well could become commonplace eventually.
i just wish they didn’t have the pink and lime paints
atleast make them not fucking eye-burning neon colors
Bearded Expense made a good video on just this, *"[TF2] the trickster pyro"* , even if it was a gameplay casual it's proof on why this can be a confusing issue that's more annoying than anything. Still, it brings down gameplay if taken advantage of.
As much as I love the traditional look most of these “team recognition” arguments are about the colors and not about the items themselves. I personally believe that the solution is to remove the red and blue paints and to keep colored cosmetics at a minimum. Hair cosmetics can keep colors that aren’t overly saturated for the sake of Lazypurple and uncle Dane’s iconic avatars. Clothing is a bit trickier. Maybe it’s best to only allow it on stripes? Kind of like that one scunt jacket that I can’t remember the name of.
Another problem I have with these arguments is that it rarely, and I mean like 1% rarely, comes into play. I have to admit that I’m somewhat new, but if anything that adds to my point. I never came across anyone wearing cosmetics that made me question which team they were on. People are also really concerned with their aesthetics so it’s super rare to see a soldier with a squid hat or something.
What do we even do about cosmetics that don’t match TF2’s artstyle? Remove them? That’s a tall order. There are people who use those items. They will feel cheated out of their money even when refunded. What can you even consider as “traditional” in TF2? If there’s unicorns in pyroland then it’s safe to say that the magical mercenary hat can exist as well. And from what I’ve seen, traditionalists hate that hat. I personally don’t like it, but it still can have a place in a traditional TF2 setting. Which is why I’m so on the fence about this.
team recognition isnt an issue they just think paints are fucking ugly but to not sound too controversial they brand it as game design discussion
not once has paint confused me as to what team someone was on, however 9/10 i see a painted cosmetic, it looks ugly as shit
The paints aren't the issue, the issue is cosmetics with giant paint regions that replace most of the team color. Even if all of the team-colored paints were removed, having the characters be 90% gray, or green, or anything would still cause issues.
@@evdestroy4121 I’m aware! It’s what I was trying to address in the first paragraph, actually. “Maybe it’s best to only allow it on stripes?” was a suggestion I made to solve the issue. I believe that if most of these cosmetics were locked in as slightly darker/lighter variants of the team colors they’d still be recognizable because of shadows and such. Vests really don’t need to be the green in order to be visible. I didn’t make my intentions clear on that so that’s mb!
I have to admit my bias towards overly saturated colors (I don’t like them lol). It honestly isn’t much of an issue regarding team recognition so I’ll be retracting that statement. I still believe that red and blue should be removed as color options though. Other than that? I still see no problem with the game’s design.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413Yeah you do have a point actually
Yup.
It honestly feels less about cosmetics themselves but how they interact with paints. Yet arguments are often directed at the cosmetics anyway even when someone's just complaining about the possiblity of painting something neon pink.
And the problem is there and can be encountered, but does feel exaggerated for sake of "brute forcing people onto your side" as I heard someone describe it. But I guess that is a more personal argument then a purely objective and unbiased one.
Like, personally the mere addition of cosmetics, the old ones, was already enough to mess with me and forced me to adapt and learn to rely on less, if anything, to recognise things and start engagements in the game. And in all honesty with how fast encounters can be in this game, it usually won't matter what cosmetics someone has and in what colour, you won't get time to think much about it even with all cosmetics disabled one way or another, you just take action and think later otherwise you get sent over to spectate your teammates with a respawn timer on your screen.
I think you miss a huge point here. Valve are the ones picking what gets added to the game and their choices directly influence what items get created. If Valve only picked traditional cosmetics then people would create more traditional items. But ultimately a large portion of the people making the items are there for a payday and will create items they think are the most likely to get in.
Gun Mettle brought irreversible damage to the future of this game.
No, I believe that was meet your match
i think..people who complain too much are the issue..
@@mrinsomniac2968 Without criticism you can't grow
@@mrinsomniac2968i think.. people who cant use logic to actually make a valid argument are the issue..
Honestly, a lot of the concerns people have towards cosmetics in terms of team recognition have less to do with the cosmetics and more to do with paints. The usual suspects that people point to as being hard to recognize because someone has done an all black loadout or used a blue paint on everything they can is less an issue with the item itself and more to do with where and if paint can be applied to it.
And, let's be honest, the paint being given to the players in the first place, or at least some of those.
Bigger paint regions wouldn't matter as much if you couldn't paint those neon pink or lime green, or as close to blue when on red or as close to red when on blue.
Although it is basically all that monetizes the game and is a big draw for most players. I do think it's pretty unfortunate that the game has an economy. It makes it really hard just remove bloat in bad copy-past or recoloured unusual effects without deleting thousands of dollars worth of money from people's backpacks. I would personally love if all these awful warpaints, effects, and cosmetics that just straight up disgrace the game's artstyle were removed.
If TF2 never had an economy it would have died years ago.
even without economy if they deleted things from a game that you had to pay for it is just as bad and valve would earn a lawsuit and rightly so
@@Roebloz It depends how you mean that, the economy definately gives TF2 a lot of money and it's debatably whether this game would keep itself running without it, but if we ignore the money that it brings in, because Valve already makes so much profit. The economy certainly isn't the reason people still play the game, most people don't care about it.
if only it was like some old mmos where there was private servers that gave u everything lol.
I think my biggest issues stems from workshop creators not being able to take criticism or open any discussion to the community for items they're adding to the game. Tf2 has a place for wacky and sometimes odd cosmetics but sometimes you see it to the most umpteenth degree and don't you dare say anything because then you're just hate mongering and that you should keep your opinions to yourself. I understand responding to that way when it is just straight up insulting and doing nothing to contribute to the discussion but real opinions seem to be lumped into the same group. I'm hoping that maybe someday both creators and users can have actual talks about items being made instead of "this side doesn't 100 percent agree with them therefore they are the worst and nothing they say matters".
I just want to say that every video that I see you make is a banger, you have great talent and I wish you good fortune!
Another banger video by TheLucidLetters, keep it up man. Love it when you use metaphors.
I feel like I would broadly describe TF2's artstyle as being: "Basically a Hannah Barbara themed videogame." With some wiggle room to describe some 80s stuff like He-Man or ghost busters. And some pre 50s stuff, like Mickey Mouse or betty boop. Anything even resembling anime art style is out instantly. As is anything that looks too much like "Modern Pixar"
or "League of Legends." Anything outside the safe zone is going to need to be "TF2-ified" Lest we turn into a second Fortnite, where you have anime characters next to irl rappers.
Broadly speaking: "If it doesn't belong in Scooby Doo! Then it doesn't belong in TF2!"
And then on top of that, you also have to make something people are actually going to want to buy. Which means you want something people can actually express themselves through. Which broadly removes almost all the tacky garbage on people's heads, like the dreaded banana hat.
But if you follow those two guidelines, then you should consistently make things people wont get up in arms about. So long as the quality isn't too bad, at least.
This is a beautifully done video, both in its being informative and incredibly well-edited. I especially have not seen anything on par with your introduction in the TF2 scene!
The accessories for the preview are very poorly chosen. The soldier on the left is wearing War Pig (released Sep 2012) and the All-Father (released Dec 2011), both painted Balcalvas (I think) war paint (released Jun 2011); while the one on the right is wearing Horace (added Aug 2014) and Mistaken Movember (I think. Released Dec 2014), painted pink and team spirit (released Dec 2010 and Nov 2010 respectively). I am not sure about you, but I do not think that an accessory released in 2014 (at latest) represents the current state of the art style fairly
Right now let's give him a choo choo train hat, with some firework unusuals, and maybe a head prize and lime green robin walkers too.
Also the soldier on the right is wearing the Safety Stripes (Released 2022) with the Sinister Staining Halloween Spell, which is literally impossible given that all Halloween Spells were deleted from players inventories in 2014 and have not been obtainable since.
Too make things worse the soldier on the right is also wearing the Moustachioed Mann (2014, can be seen more clearly at 8:41) I guess to account for the lack of moustache on the Mistaken Movember. This means soldier on the right is wearing 4 cosmetics, another impossibility. Great video but yeah the cosmetics chosen for the preview make no sense.
@@Khanihz oh yeah, you are totally right. I did not notice the clothing
Perhaps he chose the spell to make the colour more bright, if you know what I mean, but he could have chosen the lime one, for example
Also I couldn’t be bothered to watch yet another video about tf2’s declining art style, and did not notice the moustache on the preview
I love the video, it's civil and very well made on a technical level. I honestly don't really know what to think of the "Issue" you've presented in the video, I am a long-time player, and had my characters dressed in a couple different ways, but what I side with is the golden middle way, I've always loved the mix of the coats and hats, with a sprinkle of goofy additions like Max's head or a bird on my heavy's shoulder.
Dude's droping banger videos left and right, holy cow.
FUNKe in october responded to a tweet about his artstyle video from 6 years ago: "I think that video's biggest problem was just how much I concluded issues were "valve lazy" or "valve no care", in reality I think they cared a lot about player expression and so they were willing to reapproach their own visual restrictions to compromise on that"
i think tf2 have a perfect amount of goofy and serious in to it, tf2 is really unique in it's artstyle. It inspires everyone to have their own style.
FUNKe walked back on his opinion because he’s scared that the mobs on Twitter would lynch him ya buffoon
ruined the game by making it dress up for whales
Nice video sir, well made and well thought out
This video had no right to go so hard, the quality is peak bro, love your vids lol.
Great video. Keep it up, quality is something you master greatly.
Although I am more traditional regarding the use of cosmetics, there is a hypocrisy with traditionalists since they deny importance to the fact that the same valve has violated the very style of the game: collaborative cosmetics, unusual effects, killstreaks and They don't say anything and even defend them, when these effects are ALL HORRIBLE. Deleting items you paid for is idiotic and the only thing it would do is upset the entire community. I am in favor of well-made cosmetics regardless of whether they respect the style or not. And finally, when they say that recognition only applies to color, if you are red and you see someone wearing blue you are going to attack them no matter how they look, then there is the fact that you do not see black silhouettes in gameplay and that The classes carry huge weapons so even a new one would understand that if you see someone in blue with a rocket launcher you are going to be careful, in South America tf2 they take it for laughs and on every server I see every aberration and even again I never had problems recognizing equipment ; and because of the colors only 1% will use a loadout with paint to confuse and in fact the only one I found was a day after the zesty video and it was a pyro with the same loadout and since then never again
I lean traditionalist, I think most people who play tf2 do. But I am a bit worried if we are too strict we will end up with every new cosmetic looking really similar to ones we already have. But I also don’t want this game’s art style to become something like fortnight.
You either get bland tradition with no cosmetics at all, or you can have cosmetics. There is no in between.
i find more value in the arguments by the traditionalists approach, but i myself am more of a progressivist.
i agreed the most with the point of "it's hard to know which team they're on with the colors", especially as an accessibility thing, when color options get egregious. i cringed realizing a lot of the arguments for progressivists are just "idc i like it so ignore it bro" when that itself *could* be a personal opinion, you can't enforce that onto people who care abt the identity of the game. we can preserve the game with wacky cosmetics; who doesn't like being silly? but those wacky cosmetics shouldn't be too absurd if that makes sense. i'm with the progressivists with the spirit of expression, celebrating the talents of the community, and stretching the boundaries of the software we were given, but if this game starts to look more like a *newer* game than tf2, the traditionalists' push back is all warranted.
but also maybe i'm just a fan of the potassium bonnet. who knows
Idk man it sounds like you're more of a traditionalist. They aren't opposed to cosmetics being added, just the ones that, like you said, make it "look more like a newer game than tf2". There's a reason why the word "fortnite" is thrown a lot around the community now in regards to certain cosmetics/maps.
@@energeticyellow1637 very fair yeah. tbh its the culture of the very vocal traditionalists who are like "that wouldnt be in tf2s era of time (the 60s-80s)" "thats not what tf2s art style is!!!!!" and yelling abt almost every new workshop item grates me :( like there's criticism and then shitting on someone's work, possibly new too, just because its not a 1-to-1 to the game that *might* add the item. reading back i am very traditionalist on this issue, i just don't align with the vocal members.
I wouldn't really describe the arguments presented in this video for either side as "a lot of the arguments" so much as they happen to be the ones most notable from the perspective of the person making this video, who notably describes themselves as leaning towards a Traditionalists perspective. As with anything, people who hold a certain perspective tend to gravitate towards that perspective and hold more knowledge of it as opposed to a view they don't share. I think there are much more well worded or well argued cases that can be made for the Progressivist side of things than what was presented in this video. That said, at the end of the day, this is all really just a matter of respect for one another regarding matters of personal taste.
Yesterday i had a pyro in my team who was abusing cosmetics with team recognition and when i started vote kick he said fair
How is that worth a kick
this is my favorite video production-wise. 10/10
To be honest, the changes of Team Fortress 2 aren't that bad. Some people look at it as a disappointment, but I personally just consider it a natural evolution and a shift in a different direction. Tf2 is a game that you can decide whether to take seriusly or not, so it's up to the people who make the cosmetics to stick to the original style or find their own niche within it. To me, that's a win-win, though I respect people for not thinking about it the same way.
@@WereTheGermansSoStupidDocument I understand where you come from, but I still think that, despite the shift in cosmetic fashion, and unless Valve puts a stop to it, without a guideline, the game will keep pushing in this direction.
Tf2 has an amazing artstyle, but even the maps changed in recent times when you think about it.
Most of the wacky cosmetic are usually halloween restricted and even those that aren't usually don't break my immersion for it. I find it hilarious to be killed by some Binoculus abomination.
I usually go for more classic set ups, but having something goofy in a game like this does not really break it for me.
@@thekb3035dude quit tf2 and go play fortnite if you wanna be killed by wacky people, you can go fight a squad made up of travis scott, master chief, batman and eminem, im sure thats wacky enough for you.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 Nah. Besides, I don't like Battle Royales anyway.
And even then, my point was not "wacky stuff is just better", but just the fact that I don't mind it since it is up to the players anyway. If Valve decides to add a cosmetic officially because it has their stamp of approval, it's their choice. BUT, it's then up to the player whether they want to wear that cosmetic or not.
Most players I run into still wear mostly traditional stuff, so that's what I meant with the fact that wacky cosmetics make me laugh. It's because some people decide to not follow the norm and go a different direction and seeing it in game can sometimes lead to funny moments. To me, adding more player expression is not necessarily bad. Should it be limited? Perhaps, though how Valve would go about doing it is still up for debate.
Interesting video. I wholeheartedly agree with the 'be civil' you said at the end. However- I brought up a handful of criticisms while watching.
1) You overlooked the fact that Valve is THE ONE who judges what to add to the game, not workshop creators or community members. No matter how many quality and style-fitting items the community creates and how many clouts it gets, if Valve chooses to pick mediocre ones, it's all in vain. Remember the 2020 Halloween case? They included the paper mask submitted in 2009 instead of dozens of brand-new quality submissions. If I remember correctly, this kind of questionable quality control has happened more than several times. Simply, Valve has been ruining their artstyle with their own choices. Under this circumstance, I don't think blaming creators for tarnishing the artstyle with mediocre submissions is fair.
2) Bringing up the words 'traditionalist' and 'progressivist' to color people black and white is concerning. People are never entirely black or entirely white. Some can agree on having the Potassium Bonnet in the game yet disagree about the VS Saxton Hale gamemode. Some can go even further and say Conga and friendlies are ruining the game for driving people not to shoot in the shooting game. Opinion on subjects like this is personalized and nuanced, not something you can draw a clear line to cut in half.
3) Not only did you divide people's opinions in half too roughly, but also you proclaimed that you're with the 'traditionalist' side. It heavily pushes people to think that it's the right thing. I'm not sure it was a great idea if your goal was depolarizing the issue, as you said at the beginning.
I think the whole issue comes down to 'Valve's mistake and individuals' gray zone mismatch.' Valve isn't doing their quality control duty, and everyone's thoughts on what items are acceptable for TF2 differ. I think the only true solution is to ask Valve to do their job correctly like this year's Smissmas, and have a civilized conversation in the community. That's all that we need.
Hey DEWILL! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. To clear things up a bit:
1. I never state that you can *only* be one or the other. I'm simply identifying arguments that are made on behalf of both perspectives. At the end I even say that I, personally, aren't as far on the Traditionalist side as many are, which identifies that these ideas exist in a spectrum. I think that most people understood that based on the overwhelming amount of comments from people saying something to the effect of "I'm part of this side, but I still agree with the other side on this thing." I definitely could have made it clearer though.
2. I personally just disagree that identifying my biases, especially *after* discussing the arguments, pushes people to believe what I believe. The reason I state that is because I want the viewer to understand that I *am* biased; that's one of the major takeaways from the last section. I also tend to think this didn't really influence most people's perspectives based on the almost near 50/50 split of progressivists and traditionalists in the comments section.
3. The fact that Valve adds the items into the game is explicitly stated through the final argument made on the progressivist end, as well as through the painter analogy. I'm not sure how much more explicit I could have been about it, as an entire section of the video is dedicated to it.
I hope this helps clear things up or address your concerns. I'll definitely work to be more explicit next time.
(Also you should totally come on the podcast sometime soon ;))
Also I, me, TheLucidLetters, never once blame workshop creators for anything when depicting either side. I'm not sure where you got that impression, as I made certain to avoid doing that as much as possible. This video is not about playing the blame game, it's much more the identification of a debate in the community I find really interesting.
@@LucidMakesVideos Painter analogy was interesting, but it gave me an impression that you’re trying to say ‘Valve letting community to add whatever they make’ when they’re still picking what to add to the game. In my opinion, Valve’s undoing is the prime reason caused this whole situation, so I think putting it in progressivist section’s end wasn’t enough.
I know you never blamed creator in this video, but I was talking about the general community ‘’’gatekeepers’’’ trying to maintain the ‘’’purity’’’ of the game, by dropping a hate bomb over them. Felt that this video might encourage them. Because, like people in the comment section say, reasonings for ‘progressivist’ you chose in this video are thin and personal.
As far as I see, there is no complete traditionalist or complete progressivist in the community. Main critic I want to give you is this, you painted people black and white when they’re in a different hue of grays.
My general idea is this: Concerning about artstyle is good, sharing well-thought out opinions about it is even better. But if you try to demonized someone to ‘’’fix’’’ the issue, it all goes down to hell. There is no villain deliberately trying to ruin TF2’s artstyle. If there’s any, I think the closest one will be those who trying to create a villain.
@@LucidMakesVideos + maybe one day I’ll join your podcast
Perhaps if we could get an option to toggle paints on cosmetics client side? They would be useful.
Well made video, interesting points and good editing 👍
Damn i love this channel, defo what ive beenn looking for in terms of a tf2 channel
should there be an honorable mention to LazyPurple's clip from how it feels to play sniper
"although, can I just say, that with this PARTICULAR Medic. His choice of headwear isn't exactly making my life EASIER?? Back in the day, things were simple: just click on the head above the shoulders! Now there's more hat than the head!"
More a traditionalist myself but generally speaking, when we create items that are devoid of any team color and arent basic colors like black or white, we should have them take up mostly the head portion as a hat or beard. The entire baseline of tf2s color design is that you can look within the torso region to recognize what team your fellow player is on,, alongside the legs for every class except scout. This has got to remain true, and body cosmetics that are shirts or jackets or such should keep team colors as a major part of the cosmetic.
This is a beautifully made video. Subbed.
Trad. Tf2 cosmetics used to be divided into groups very well - you had:
- normal, fairly realistic hats
- wacky hats avaliable only during halloween & on community servers
- smissmas hats which were pretty much santa/elf hats
Now you have people in casual games running around with gouged eyes, animals, candies, bananas, sandwiches and gifts wrapped around their heads.
I say that while I like all of the goofy and wacky stuff that the workshop may produce, they should at least keep in mind team recognition and if it negatively impacts how one class may perceive you (sniper and his snaggletooth cosmetic, for example)
Go as wacky as you want, just have two ideas in mind:
1. Does this (choice) obstruct team recognition?
2. Does this make it harder to see what class you are?
other than that, I think it'd be wild to see a pyro with some crazy elder wizard loadout, just not to the point where his team color (for instance, RED) is completely obstructed and it's hard to hit his head etc.
Stay wild Workshop people!
>would be wild to see a *pyro* set
of course.
The problem is there is no clear line on how much is too "Wacky" or too "unrecognizable" for workshop creator so they just use the item that already got add as the Line and that Line will keep getting wider unless there is the clear instructions on what can and can't do for cosmetic.
Personally I'm a progressivist, cosmetics in the game should be wacky and silly, because the game literally revolves around bizzare shenanigans. (example: Engineer invents teleportation in the 80s, engie replacing his hand with prosthetic, literal sentient sentry, heart surgery invulnerability shenanigans, cursed jar, merasmus & soldier existing, and 2fort lead poisoning)
However, I think readability should always come first, no matter how ridiculous or funny the cosmetic is. If it interferes too much with readability, it's a no bueno due to the possible advantage from using the cosmetic.
so you like tf2 because its like fortnite
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413i like tf2 because its call of duty
as my friend putted it roughtly after playing it
"why the "rich ppl" look like comming from fortnite?"
rich ppl refering to the ppl that pay the most for the game, often being that 1 dark lord with flashy edgy cosmetic in a MMORPG
Holy s***, your video is so AMAZING! I kinda can see your editing skills and art style evolve, and i'm really happy about that.
About which side i am on, i mostly lean to traditional, bc i feel like the progressivists arguments mostly boil down to, atleast in the video, "Who cares about art style? TF2 is a goofy game". BUT i might be wrong, i need to research that topic still.
As i said, video is great, keep going!
(Also, how did you revived her?)
I think this discussion also applies to warpaint, and to a certain extent unusual effects.
As people like Monkey have pointed out in the past, a rainbow barf of a skin using stock images ripped from the internet is not only lazy and boring, but also again affects the core art style of the game. The 2023 summer warpaint case had some of the best skins in the game's history, and it was because they use realistic colors and patterns.
Also some of the creators of the rainbow barf skins got mad that the "duller" skins were more desirable then theirs... I think that says a lot about them as a person. Some of these people just want to make a buck at the expense of an abandoned game.
Around 5 thousand views?? You deserve millions my friend. Good work!!
The intro is just fire🔥
Your videos get me lucid. Please, help me stop it.
I adore this game’s art style and while I don’t kind paints when I first started playing I couldn’t tell which heavy was on what team (I’m very stupid, especially with hats and cosmetics) now with almost a thousand hours in I keep shooting at our team’s green pyro because my brain is so wired to cooler color = shoot
Great video! Where did you learn the "tem forte tu" phrase? The grammar isn't quite there, it would translate to "have strong you", but I loved the example nonetheless!
This is a comment I left on a more "traditionalist" video encapsulating my thoughts on the drama:
I agree with arguments like this to some extent, but this whole conversation just seems rife with melodrama and I can only guess it's due to some form of nostalgia from older players who maybe played it as a kid, dropped it for a while, came back to it now, and are overwhelmed with all the new, shiny things that've been added in their absence. I started playing in early 2014 so I'm unsure if this makes my perspective on this more "moderate" or not, but I feel as though I can come to the conclusions I have in a more organic way since I don't have any sort of longing for "the good ole days" of TF2, and conversely I also don't feel any attachment to the game's current leaning into the more wacky and silly aspects of its identity.
I don't mind seeing wacky/silly things in the game from time to time, since that is also a part of TF2's identity and aesthetic. The golden frying pan, flashy unusual effects, weapon skins, etc. are all fine in moderation. What I think a lot of newer players don't understand is that this side of TF2's identity is now being leaned much more heavily into, and thus the more 70s/retro grounded stuff is getting lost in it. The lime scout in the thumbnail is a perfect example; it's silly and wacky, but it looks atrocious and I don't think it exemplifies the overall "vibe" of TF2 well at all.
I think the main issue is that, since Valve doesn't really care about TF2 anymore, there is no more moderation. Loud and flashy unusuals, bright weapon skins, and weird cosmetics are basically a dime a dozen at this point when they should've remained mostly obscure. It's Valve's responsibility to vet content created by the community, they decide where the aesthetic goes. If Valve are set on leaning hard into the wacky/silly stuff when there are other items on the workshop that are more "traditionally" TF2, then that is Valve's fault. People want their creations to get into the game, and if there's a pattern of only the silly/wacky stuff being accepted then that's what is going to be made.
That being said, I find the idea that these things are "ruining the game" to be absurd. TF2 is still a fun game to play regardless of the times where someone's "le epic wacky meme loadout" makes me raise an eyebrow. It's an inconvenience at best, and not a game ruiner except for minor hits to the readability of the characters. (Which would, again, be Valve's fault for accepting items that have that effect.) I feel like the constant melodramatic framing of this issue and attacks made against workshop creators only stand to make these legitimate grievances look like pure petulance, and if we really want things to change, the framing needs to be made in a more constructive manner. The criticisms of the current art direction are legitimate, but are being blown out of proportion immensely and again, I think it's mainly due to people's emotional attachments to the game.
What I think is a REAL major issue is the fuckton of maps that are being added to the game now, and yet TF2's playerbase insists on being perma friendlies on 2Fort. Add map rotations so people will be forced to play Gravel Pit ffs (
3:47 beautifully done mate.
Best editing of all of CZcams
I started playing in 2021 and I lean more into the traditionalist side of the argument
i agree with the traditionalist while being new just because of the colors, it really can fuck you up if you cant even tell who is in your team. And with the crazy cosmetics, i can undertstand how it can confuse new players, but if you can still recognize the character, i feel like wacky cosmetics like the banana are fine.
A lot of traditionalist points about preservation is ultimately pointless. The workshop has all sorts of styles of cosmetics (traditional and progressive) and Valve themselves add them. The same Valve of course being the reason the art style was a certain way to begin with
I noticed most people that are on the side of letting anything get added are either people that don’t care specifically about playing tf2, don’t like a certain content creator that does care about it, or benefits directly from letting shitty hats get added or has a friend that does.
Now do these sound like categories of people that should have their opinion validated? No. Us that care about the artstyle and don’t think it’s too late to turn things around understand how much of tf2s soul is dependent on the setting and time and theme. None of us would be capable of creating a game even remotely as good as tf2, had we been given the chance to over the original devs. So why would we destroy the work they built in as though we could? It’s very narcissistic to value your own rainbow colored stacked hats over the thought and time the developers put in all those years ago.
To be clear community created content isn’t the issue. Obviously. It’s the lack of management that leaves room for too much incentive to not try and respect the art style. Some people just wanna make memes. Some people just wanna get paid. And some people just wanna spite.
6:39 Those 2 loadouts make any progressivist argument invalid
Yes.
I'm also in the side of.
This Game looks like no other.
And so i'm suggesting for an option that alows to dissable cosmetics.
I like it mostly because every server i join is on mars and my computer is not the best
I'm on the Progressivist team because I like new wacky stuff but I think the arguments of Traditionalists are 100x better (our argument is literally just "we do not care")
i lean more the other way to you but in a way that doesn't want disregard, i think you mentioning the 2023 smissmas case is actually a perfect example of what i like out of TF2 cosmetics. Some of them are a bit silly, but they take themselves seriously enough that they fit well, even if they're a bit stand-out. And I think ideally that's the healthiest way for the game to go. Embracing that modern silliness in that older sort of vibe.
Tbh my biggest issue with everyone who stands against the preservation of team recognition is that they literally fight for nothing. There are only benefits with preserving it and no cost. It's literally saying something like "this game doesn't need better optimisation or servers because it's already good enough", yeah it may be, but what bad would come from improving upon it?
and what good is axing a lot of cosmetics that people like using just because you want to preserve what *you* think is best for the game? another question, how many times have you died in tf2 where it was the fault of spotty team recognition? miracle if you can count them in more than one hand.
lovely introduction
I think we can't really remove cosmetics, however I think it would be great if new cosmetics kept closer to the style when accepted into the game, and they should fix anything that messes with team recognition, as a person who rarely uses paints my sets dont have an issue with it, but team recognition is important and should be maintained
Can I say one thing, the people who make these arguments are often people who are traders, people who value every cosmetic and competitive players who want to be able to have a clean kill instead of seeing a bright pink furry running around.
If you don’t like the cosmetics that are added in, just don’t wear them and plus the guys who do wear them at casuals or want to have fun with these silly hats.
I like the hats, it’s what distinguishes players from each other. Whether it’s a sniper wearing a hood running around with an AWPer or one with a banana for head carrying a AUSTRALIAM SMG. The matter of fact is the hats aren’t the problem, it’s the players that give value to them.
Value not in if it’s an unusual but value as in if they like it or not. Rating every hat they see and giving an opinion on it.
I like hats that more on tf2 art style but also once that look cool but may not in theme, I can still wear the hat and make it apart of TF2.
If I said Pootis, The Observer, monoculus snipers, A TF2tuber, tryhard scout. You already know what I’m talking about and you could picture the class and cosmetics in your head. The hats are part of what make TF2 a great community along with its fun gameplay. The people who argue about what TF2 is supposed to be ruin TF2, they’re like toddlers fighting over a Sandbox in school. The sandbox is for everyone and TF2 is for everyone to play, whether or not you’re Tryhard Tuesdaying for that GODLIKE or throwing sandwiches to players to start a conga line on 2Fort.
We all share Team Fortress 2 and it’s what created the community, and the community is what makes Team Fortress 2 the game it is today.
There's a mobile game company named SUPERCELL that made Clash of Clans, Clash Royale, and Brawl Stars. They have this system called SUPERCELL MAKE on a few of their games where the community votes on community-made entries for a themed campaign. All of the campaigns are for various cosmetics, and it's sort of similar to the community cosmetics from TF2, though it's only a select few times a year.
Well made👏
Great video
Just let people turn off hats and taunts they dont like
And have that cosmic turn into a default cosmetic that looks like nothing
at this point, I would like to present Brick Rigs
just got off a game where a pyro had the water weights died red, never have i been so confused in my life.
5:54
One small note. Blizzard did in fact had something like this, just not with Overwatch. Before SC2 support started dying, it had RTC(Rock The Cabinet) contests. Before 2017 it was mostly a contest for custom maps where you could just get money and your map would be translated by Blizzard on all supported languages and it gets some official achievements. However Blizzard added a co-op mode where you have several maps. RTC 2017 was very different from the others. It’s more closer to what workshop is for TF2. People got a chance to make their own co-op map and had a chance to get it officially into the game. Sadly, as much as I know Blizzard never did this again. What a shame.
im not some super good tf2 player but hear me out, what if for the new players issue there was a setting automatically set on default to disable others' cosmetics. then assuming you arent a new player or u think u already can tell the difference on who is your teammate and who is your enemy u can just toggle it off. wouldnt that kinda fix the issue of team recognition?
This is smart because it would also solve issues involving hats causing performance issues for low end machines. Valve pls add
Just give players a toggle for whether they locally see the funky costumes or not. Problem solved.
They will never do that because that would make hats worth less
I think that would create more problems than solving the issue since new players aren't gonna know they can turn them off and if they made it a thing by default people would be mad.
Also I don't think we can trust valve to choose what is and isnt a silly cosmetic
I wanna see cosmetics, I don't wanna see bullshit
Listening to this in the background, I completely forgot that this was a tf2 video for a little bit. And was like "oh wow this artist is REALLY neat to let others add onto his old paintings!" then the title card came in and I was confused, so I went back to the tab and saw "team fortress 2"... oh yeah this is about tf2.
I'll throw my two cents. I would say, as a standard, traditionalist cosmetics make the better norm. However, there are some cosmetics that blatantly don't fit the game, like the Fosters Facade, that are a bit of a guilty pleasure. So I am certainly fine with the occasional curve ball, on the grounds that it actually wows me. Something my brain says "No", but I can't help but find too cool pass up.
A subjective metric, for sure, and an unfair one at that, as a progressive cosmetic requires a substantially higher quality for my approval. But that's the cost if you want to break the rules.
Wait it changed? I would’ve never realized
Another video to base my entirely TF2 personality around
A third one for traditionalists would be class/silhouette recognition
This is like a video that cool teacher would play.
Very well made
I think I find myself somewhere in the middle. I believe that cosmetics with paint regions should keep those regions small and unobtrusive, as immediate team recognition is quite important, albeit not fully make-or-break for the game’s balance. And I also agree that cosmetics should meet a certain quality standard, while not being too confining as the ship for staying entirely within the time period has sailed for a long time now. However I also think that the issue, while very much worth being discussed and brought up, is not as incredibly dire as some people make it out to be. And yes it very well could become more serious with time, in its current state it is manageable. Sidenote- more halloween cosmetics should be restricted
another banger video once again
i really do like that people bend tf2 art, similar to how people bend tf2's core gameplay with custom maps and modes. i'd love to live in a world without lime green or hot pink paint, but i feel like more outlandish skins tend to be less common in most lobbies. id rather not delete anything, and rather course correct with even more "normal" cosmetics
That's what I think. Valve should just add better ones in the future. But they probably never will. (also they should 100% fix the paint regions on certain Pyro cosmetics though)
another great video by The Lemon Liquor
evolving the games art style is no excuse for ruining it too well it might be true that valve already ruined the games art style since the beginning but they're not the ones controlling the game's art style anymore we are and it's our choice to kill the games art style or preserve it
Based
Even the example Valve gave was nowhere near as bad as cosmetics can get nowadays
I started playing TF2 a few months ago. I've never had an issue figuring out who is who despite the crazy cosmetics. When I started watching this video I thought I'd be a traditionalist, but as I saw examples of cosmetics they'd like to remove I found them more and more ridiculous. I wouldn't remove a single cosmetic in TF2.