Why Valyrians, Andals & Ironborn Have so Much in Common | ASOIAF Theory
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
- 🌍 *Ironborn, Andals, and Valyrians: Originating in the Valyrian Peninsula* 🌍
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📖 Chapters 📖
00:00 - Intro
00:53 - Iron Islands: Valyria Before Valyria
06:07 - Ironborn & Fire Magic
09:51 - Ironborn & Valyrian Similarities: Names, Religion, Imagery
15:21 - Andal Names
19:05 - Andals & Ironborn
25:24 - Andals & Valyrians
28:36 - Why Valyrians, Andals & Ironborn Have So Much in Common
29:38 - Sunset Sea, Valyria, and the Great Empire of the Dawn
35:31 - Why It Makes Sense for the Ironborn to Originate in the Valyrian Peninsula
38:24 - Why It Makes Sense for the Andals to Originate in the Valyrian Peninsula
42:02 - The Seafaring Valyrians
42:44 - Conclusions + Outro
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📚 *Sources* 📚
ASoIaF book series, GoT: Histories and Lore & House of the Dragon HBO TV series, The World of Ice and Fire.
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🌐 *Social Media & Podcast* 🌐
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🖼️ *Art Credits* 🖼️
Dragonlords by Magali Villeneuve, The Grey King by Arthur Bozonnet & Hugor of the Hill as depicted in Game of Thrones: Histories & Lore.
📜 *Ore Deposits Sources* 📜
- Supervolcanoes and Metallic Ore Deposits: [Link](doi.org/10.2113/GSELEMENTS.4....)
- Formation of tin ore deposits: A reassessment [Link](doi.org/10.1016/j.lithos.2020...)
- Global Fe-O isotope correlation reveals magmatic origin of Kiruna-type apatite-iron-oxide ores: [Link](doi.org/10.1038/s41467-019-09...)
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#asoiaf #asongoficeandfire #hotd #houseofthedragon
🔍 *Keywords* 🔍
House of the Dragon, HOTD, House of the Dragon HBO, theory, house Greyjoy, house of the dragon theories, ASOIAF, A Song of Ice and Fire, asoiaf theories, Iron Islands, Grey King, Nagga, Pyke, dreams, Hugor of the Hill, House Arryn, Andals, Andal Invasion, prophecies, visions, old Valyria, Valyria, House Velaryon, House Celtigar, Valyrian Houses - Zábava
READ THAT PLEASE AND THANK YOU!⬇⬇⬇⬇
I know there are some sound issues during the scene of Laena's funeral, but I had to mute it, bc of copyrights, but CZcams cut off parts where I talk, as well. I said: *Yes, there are many things in this part that are obviously about Rhaenyra’s Kids and how Laenor is not their natural father, but that doesn’t change the very obvious similarities to the Ironborn and the many differences with the Targaryens.*
I know that I used A LOT of stuff from my older videos, but I don’t like uploading videos where someone has to have done homework, so they can be able to watch it, and since this video involves parts from MANY of my older ones, I chose to repeat them. I have timestamps so you can move around the video in case you don’t want to listen to me saying stuff that you are already familiar with. That being said I tried to elaborate more on most things.
I would find it peculiar if one of the people from the myths we have about Dawn had albinism. I actually find it very plausible looking at GRRM writing, BUT still native pale blonde people when the inhabitants (YiTish, Lengi, Zoqora, etc) are not white. Imagine if, in 5000 from the current timeline, people were thinking the Dothraki were blonde because of a myth involving Dany who is very white. We do not know if people from these myths were natives of the area, so at least for whole groups, like the Ironborn or the Hightowers and the Farmans, I think is safe to assume that they were not from there.
Thanks for watching and reading this!!!!
No, I will not skip!
I like how she comes up with some killer revelations and drops it like it is nothing important... 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 She is so modest about her exploits that it's sad... Way too humble and I love that about her. Are all Greeks like this? 😅
Thank you!😂❤️
I agree with what you said about COC, but I just wanted to hop in and say: not all Greeks are like that for sure 😅
The editors who work for Evagelatos and I are carrying this country 😂
30:12 The idea of someone crossing the Sunset Sea is a mystery, and an intentional one. Corlys claiming to see Sunchaser wouldn’t be included if Martin did not want the reader to entertain the idea that Farman found Asshai west of Westeros. As to his comment, I take his words as “No one is known to have ever crossed the Sunset Sea”. Not by maesters, not by commoners, not by the ruling elite. If it happened, one would be more likely to hear of it to the west of the Sunset Sea because that is where she would have landed. So it’s unsurprising that if she made it to Asshai (and especially considering the folk that live in the Shadow desiring discretion particularly about magic) most people, and our characters, would not know. At best, we’d hear rumors, and that’s what Corlys provides.
The thing is that the ship was there, but we do not know anything about how it got there. Personally, I think that, 99% they just turned and changed direction. It doesn't prove that they crossed the Sunset Sea. I know that a lot of people are very sure that GRRM lies, or plays with us in answers, the thing is that when he straight up answers questions like in this one, he doesn't lie most likely.
*Over the =Sunset= Sea? No. No one has ever crossed the Sunset Sea to learn what lies on the other side.*
To me the whole "The ship was there" is mostly to give credence to the very symbolic stuff (because they are more symbolic than literal) like the "To go west you must go east", etc etc. And of course to make us draw the parallel that Dany's eggs might have been from a Targaryen Dragon.
@@CompanyOfTheCat I see what you’re saying. Although I put less stock in what Martin says about the text in interviews, particularly about content that isn’t finalized yet. And especially after the show and its controversies, if I were him I’d avoid declarative statements about anything in-world.
I don’t think he tricks fans, but I do think he obfuscates. It’s less important if Farman was able to reach Asshai, but the fact that Sunchaser was there (allegedly) lends credence to the idea that it is possible to travel west and land in “the East”.
If that is true, it’s very likely (to me) that a sufficiently powerful, continent-spanning, magical empire would have the means to travel from eastern Essos to the western coast of Westeros. The people of the Great Empire of the Dawn, fleeing its downfall, would scatter in all directions including across a sea or ocean.
The Lonely Light seems like evidence of an originally non-Westerosi people traveling from the east by ship. Some settled, some pressed westward and eventually found the (possible) peninsula and collection of isles that would become the Iron Islands. Fact is, the people of the Lonely Light (in their appearance) are vastly different to the First Men and the Andals, and even the other Ironborn. Their eyes are described as kaleidoscopic, or color-changing, and many are rumored to be magical (said to take the form of seals and walruses, which most of the fandom believes is skin-changing).
The rulers of Great Empire are the only others in ASOIAF whose eyes are described similarly: likened to gemstones and appearing in a very wide range of colors. Likewise, the Lannisters actually have hair, not of blonde, but “spun gold” and the Emperors of the Great Empire (as well as some Valyrians) are given this hair type among other kinds (like white-gold, silver and platinum or variations of all three). Additionally, Lannister eyes are often green, and “jade” does allude to the Jade Emperor.
I think there are too many clues that some of the Ironborn, Westermen, and southwestern Reachmen (near and around Oldtown), or at least their many of their leaders, are descended or were genetically influenced by the Great Empire of the Dawn.
With all that said, it’s still possible the GEotD traveled to Westeros (if they did) via the east, through most of Essos, and past the Narrow Sea to land on the western side of Westeros (because the Arm of Dorne would prevent them from traveling by sea up into the Narrow Sea). But if that is the case, what is the Lonely Light about?
Why would they have traits that *seem* more closely related, or more recently-related, to the Great Empire if they would be the LAST to arrive in that region of the world (going east from Essos). Further, why would they travel so far away from mainland Westeros to live, ultimately, closer to Asshai (which is where, in theory, they would have fled) after the disastrous-nigh apocalyptic-reign of the Bloodstone Emperor?
In my opinion, it’s likely they went in ALL directions, and while many would have perished across the Sunset Sea headed west…some would survive, especially if they were once themselves (or descendants of) a class of the elite in the Great Empire. I don’t even think their exodus west would be a real choice, if the Empire was even half as large as the text says, people would flee wherever they could.
And I imagine that most fled overland, like the ancestors of the Dothraki, but if there were too many people and so much destruction some would be forced elsewhere across the sea. It’s even more likely if these seafarers know (or have an idea of) the existence or location of Westeros; which they might if they are even adjacent to imperial elites.
(I hope none of this comes across as bad-spirited, your content is wonderful and I just enjoy engaging with these topics!)
"I hope none of this comes across as bad-spirited..."
Oh no worries about that!
Idk and the reason I am not convinced about these theories is that stories tend to become more magical, and grand as time passes. If people had indeed crossed the Sunset Sea, to the extent many theories suggest we would have at least 1-2 stories more and for sure more "wow" myths, so when they became less and less embellished (since to apply them, they have to become more grounded), they indicate that something like that had happened. In theory, it is possible, since it is a planet, but I doubt there are people who succeded and did not just die in the process. One ship sailing for West and in the end being funded in Ashaii, it's not enough considering we never learn what occurred in the meantime and when we already know that one of the ships did indeed change direction. It is like with skinchanger, if we think about what skinchagers actually do and what stories and legends claim, there is a very big gap.
Glad you like the videos tho!
Maybe there's nothing west of Westeros and Planetos is actually a discworld, carried by 4 elefants on the back of a giant turtle 😜😜😜
The quote is “No one is known to have ever crossed the Sunset Sea to learn what lies on the other side”, which is not logically equivalent to “No one is known to have ever crossed the Sunset Sea”. And does not entail that “No one has ever crossed the Sunset Sea”.
Related, "...that the Ironborn came from the West" is quite a broad statement. One can reject the broad statement but fail to address weaker versions. For instance, we may doubt that the whole of the Ironborn people came from the West in some great over sea migration. But doubting that leaves open that a small group from the West arrived at the Iron Isles and joined with the people already living there, gifting them with their Western culture and knowledge.
Petition for Cat to be involved with a second TWOIAF!
I don't think I have ever see this theory and I don't know why, it makes a lot of sense.
I love the Greek "lessons" thrown in! Never change!
"Re malaka" is a very useful one write it down😂
@@CompanyOfTheCat ...I know this is a trap...but I'm going to do it anyway...
No, it's not. We use it for everything 😂
@@CompanyOfTheCat That in no way means it's not a trap! It's just a trap that sees common use... I've spoken to Australians!🤔
I just realized Orkmont could be a reference to Orcus, the roman champion god of the underworld. Orcus is in this case represented by a vulcano, or an 'Orkmont'.
Oooh, that is a cool thought!
Your geography and geopolitics videos are always so good! Every time I see a title of yours or a thumbnail I wonder what the hell, and every time I leave the video agreeing with you.
Thanks for the vid Cat. You have a really good channel✊🏽
I’m home sick and you just made my day ❤️ thanks for untangling the web of asoiaf
Wow Cat every video you just outdone yourself, gotta say your love for all things Andal & Ironborn is contagious and you blew my mind with the title of guardian of the river in Meereen good conection.
My videos are just me trying to convince everyone that the Ironborn are interesting, so they will not slander the Ironborn chapters and AFFC. And my evil plan is working muahahaha
Glad you like the video😊
This wasn't as 'tin foil hat' of a theory as i was expecting. very good video indeed!
ps: the greek is back, hell yeah!
Yeah, sounds way more out there than it actually is
I personally think that people did travel East across the sea to Westeros, and intermingled with "First Men" to create the Ironborn, Hightowers, etc. Who those people were exactly, I'm not sure. They could be from the Great Empire of the Dawn, The Fisher Queens (who I think are the Mazemakers and Lengii, check out The Disputed Lands' video on that if you haven't) or from somewhere else entirely. Considering that Planetos is supposed to be "slightly larger" than the size of Earth, the entire map of the known world only covers about a quarter or maybe a third of the planet, meaning there is almost certainly another land mass equivalent to the Americas or Australia or something somewhere in between Westeros and Essos.
Your logic is sound, considering George's quote about the "Sunset Sea," but keep in mind that most of his answers when it comes to geography and stuff are given from the perspective of the Westerosi. He's made it pretty clear that all of the histories, lore, maps, etc are only as accurate as the Maesters know, which is why things get less accurate and more mythical the further back in time and further east we go (which i also think the map is probably wildly inaccurate in the far east). We know that Westerosi have attempted to sail across the Sunset Sea, but the Maesters wouldn't have any idea what happened or was found if those sailors never reported back.
Great video though, and Im not trying to argue or debunk what you're saying though. That's just the way I see it, and I think there's enough probability that people came to Westeros via it's western sea. Who those people were exactly, and how many of them it was, I'm not sure lol
Edit: I wanted to add that (like I think someone else said in the comments), people coming to Westeros _from_ the West wouldn't call it the Sunset Sea. GRRM's answer to the question (which is technically about trade routes between Westeros and Asshai) puts emphasis on the word "Sunset" in the quote, then says that "No one has ever crossed the Sunset Sea to learn what lies on the other side" (meaning that no one in Westeros has ever done that, or at least as far as the Westerosi know) and then he specifies the actual trading route to Asshai. It's particularly interesting if you consider how he answered the next question about the round world, where he says that he _suspects_ the Maesters and more educated realize the world is round, but the common folk might not.
I mean yeah. That's pointed out in Danny's dream among other places.
They are all descendents of the people of the jeweled emperors. There's a whole bit where the eye and hair colors of the old emperors match the eye and hair colors of the main families in westeros.
I think, with the Old Wyk, Wyk, George Martin was inspired by early medieval England and the names come from that time period. The ironborn are inspired by vikings and Vik is still the word in Norwegian for sea entrance in land, like a small thin fjord. Like in modern day Viken a region around Oslo, Larvik, Bjorvika and many more. If i remember correctly there are some places in Scotland with the same name structure. Cheers!
Now that I'm thinking about it, ASOIAF was based on The War of Roses. A war amongst the Norman nobility who were all descendents of Rollo the viking by way of William the conquer, or in this case Aegon the Conquer.
The Targs are vikings with dragons 🤯.
There is an easy explanation for the Daynes in this video... blue and red make purple. What if the purple eyes of House Dayne are just the natural blue eyes of Valyrians mixing with the fire magic in their sword?
Also if i understood this correctly then the migrations from the Valyrian Peninsula into Westeros are as follows:
1) the proto ironborn
2) some proto andals moving to dorne or andalos after the hammer. dorne was already settled by first men when the hammer hit so this doesnt clash with that bit of history
2.5) some of those moving to andalos continue right away to the vale
3) a mix of the remaining proto ironborn and the now true ironborn use the new passage to become the sistermen
4) celtigars and velaryons
5) the last of the andals leave andalos
6) the targaryens
Tell me if i got anything wrong and what you think of my idea for the purple eyes of House Dayne being a result of fire magic found in their meteorite sword.
Certainly the best analysis channel in the asoiaf community(of course thats my opinion)
Τα βιντεα σου είναι υπέροχα. Τόσα χρονιά δεν εχω συνάντησή ουτε ένα άτομο στην χώρα μας που να εχει διαβάσει ολόκληρη την σειρά βιβλίων. Αλλα και πάλι φαίνεται να υπάρχουνε ατομα σαν εσένα. Που κρύβεστε: 😭
Καλεεεε σταμάτα κοκκινιζω 😂
Μόλις γίνουμε 20 οι Έλληνες στο κανάλι θα κανονίσουμε να κάνουμε κονβενσιον. Χαίρομαι που περνάτε καλά με τα βινδεα φιλτατε ❤️
@@CompanyOfTheCat Κονβενσιον ? Αυτό το υποστηρίζω 100%
A fantastic channel. Wonderful and nearly groundbreaking...every time!
Brilliant and incredibly high quality! I love this channel. I’ve been rationing your awesome videos!
Laena epically has both a Targaryen funeral (by technicality) and a Velaryon funeral. Loved this change and love how they fleshed out a character who was seemingly unimportant into a character I cried real tears for. As much as I would like for them to be able to keep this up going forward without George’s guidance so he can work on Winds….. I think they need to keep him involved, else we get another disappointing ending.
Yeah, they already made some weird choices (the Rhaenys throne room scene, Laenor staying alive, cutting Laena's story this much, etc), and without GRRM I really don't know where this is gonna go.
@@CompanyOfTheCat Before even seeing an episode, I was already nervous about the show due to the change with Rhaenys’s hair. It would be nice if they allowed for not all trueborn Targaryens being silver/gold haired. I imagine this change was made to give more weight to the appearance of Rhaenyra’s children and them not being Laenor’s. But having such a noticeable change turn up before the show even came out had me worried a bit too early for my liking.
And I am VERY nervous to see how they will handle Seasmoke…..
@@brittanyrae5771 At least now we have an actor for Adam and the returning Laenor with a mustache speculations are not gonna be true😂 I hope...
Sorry but I have to say this. This is the very first time I have heard a Greek talk about Santorini. I have seen BS documentaries made by Atlantis hunters, a few mentions of it in history classes in school, and a History channel documentary about the Minoans. I just think its cool to hear a Greek talk about it. Sorry again, nerd time over.
Haha, glad you liked it! I also nerd out with geology and geography, in general, so I get you.
Yeah, today's video is bigger!!!
Great video, as always!
Personally I reckon that the Great Empire of the Dawn makes the most sense if we accept that they were dragon riders, as shown with the fused black stone forts north of Yi-ti, Asshai being made of similar stone, and dragons originating from the shadowlands which was likely apart of the empire. There is also mention of dragons nesting on Battle Isle in Oldtown prior to the Long Night/Valyria through myths.
This latter case regarding dragons in western westeros when paired with the theory of the Iron Isles being once home to a dragon/having dragonlord influnce on their culture, could imply that the Great Empire had terroritorial holdings along the western Westerosi coast. With the Iron Isles potentially being an outpost or colony. With any myths relating to the slaying of Naga the Sea dragon maybe being a mythological retelling of the dragonrider influenced natives/potentially imported slaves who worked the mines and volcanos on the islands rebelling and declaring indepdence (later becoming the iron born).
Likely wrong but wanted to say xD
The thing with the great Empire of the Dawn is that it creates more problems than solving them. For example, why in a huge empire where every inhabitant is described as clearly not-white, are there so many pale people? In any other fantasy book, I would say “Ok, classic fantasy book most people for some reason are white”, but even if not perfect the world here is much more diverse and the different groups of people are way more thought out. Lengi, Yi-Tish, Zoqora, etc are described as nonwhite, Highowers, as well as Andals, are not only white, they are light-haired and eyed as well and Ironborn again are very white, and we don’t know how they looked before all the salt wives.
Second, in Yi-Ti have so many myths about the Long Night and the Empire, and nowhere do we see Dragonriders, this is a popular theory, but we don’t really have any proof. We know for a fact that dragons exist in the Far East even to this day as we saw in Bran’s dream, but for some reason, they decided to teach some random people in Valyria to tame them and never tamed them themselves? Why? It doesn’t make sense. We know that the Hightowers and the Ironborn, killed dragons, but these areas also look very much volcanic and we know that wild dragons tend to nest in Volcanoes, so to me looks like they just killed the dragon they found in these areas.
The base of the Hightower is something we haven’t seen and some maesters say it looks like fused stone, but we also have maester Theron who says that it looks like the Seastone Chair, which doesn’t sound exactly like fused stone from the info we get. And if all these stones need dragons, then at some point a Dragonriding empire similar to Valyria was so powerful and present all over planetos, and we have 0 myths about dragons with riders, not even in places where maesters cannot change or cover up events, like Yi-Ti.
"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.
"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"
- A Feast for Crows - Samwell V
If even dragonfire and the dragons are the result of blood and fire magic, maybe dragons were not the only way to construct these things, they just made their construction easier. And since magic is very similar almost everywhere it would make sense why there are so many and different, but with similarities, artifacts.
@@CompanyOfTheCat I see what you mean about the GEotD not having tales of dragons, but I do think the first dragon(s) were created there, it's just that they didn't propagate for long enough for people to have seen or remembered it. It was probably around the time of the Long Night and probably intended to combat it -- e.g. Azor Ahai's very allegorical prophecy that may be about making dragons, the Bloodstone Emperor who worshipped a black stone from the sky, betrayed the "Amethyst" Empress and potentially caused the Long Night, etc. But this was also when the Empire fell and the survivors scattered around the world, including the first dragon creator/rider(s) who would've landed in Valyria and taught the Valyrians their knowledge -- mind you that the original dragons may well have died or flown away after the end of the Long Night, so these refugees wouldn't necessarily have their own dragons, maybe just eggs and/or the knowledge of how to recreate them. So the GEotD would have lost a lot of people to the Long Night, and the whole Empire fell right around the same as these dragon-related tales would've happened. It makes sense the few survivors in the region wouldn't have known about the few dragons or woudn't have set the knowledge down in clearcut terms, given the circumstances. If wild dragons existed after that, it was probably due to a couple of suriviving dragons without riders.
So excited!!!!
The dothraki call jorah the andal even tho hes a northman and they are 1st men. like your content thanks
Excellent vid 🙏
Gargalan re malaka! lolll! That reminded me of a Greek friend of mine.
But their name is Gargalen, re malaka 😂
Maybe I missed something you said but if the great empire of the dawn didn't ride dragons and the valyrians were truly the first riders. Who built the fused stone five forts and battle isle base? Because the timeline suggests they are pre-valyrian. And what are your thoughts on House Dayne in relation to the great empire of dawn?
The thing with tGEotD is that we only have the 5 forts nothing else, and these themselves are the fiery equivalent of the Wall from the stories we get. If they were riding dragons on the daily, like the Valyrians we would have more myths and some more constractions I think, because there are 0 myths that someone from there had dragons. These are the reasons I am not sold on the whole they were a Dragonriding Empire. They tried to do something most likely with dragons before the long night, yes, but throughout their history, I doubt they had dragons.
Dragonfire itself is magical, thus the Valyrians were using it all the time for magical artifacts, but the way Marwyn talked about Dragonfire kinda indicates that you can achieve similar stuff without it.
*"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.
"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"
-A Feast for Crows - Samwell V*
If blood and fire are the reason for dragonfire, who says that you can't achieve similar results to the ones the Valyrians did without it and just do blood and fire magic? I find it way more plausible, bc we have very few artifacts that seem to be very crucial and important for something (5 forts) and not something they were doing all the time. They probably were using similar magic to the Valyians and might the Valyrians learned stuff from them, but Dawn as a whole having dragons, sounds weird with the myths we have.
So, now I have officially seen all of your videos
😊😊
Was Craster father cold hands?
❤ we love you you’re celebrity
Westeros is a destiny pit, thousands of people moved to make their legend only to get bogged down in wars and politics
Outstanding 👍👍 I have a difficult time suspending critical thought to accept a society like the iron born have grown large enough to threaten Westeros, they do not sow, so where do the get food enough to feed such a large population? I know they are in story stealing it from the mainland. I think the lords of the 7 kingdoms would not bare the cost in lives and treasure to feed a predatory population off the coast. Once grown large enough for the lords of the 7 kingdoms to notice the hit lives and tax base the iron born would quickly be turned from predator to prey hunter to hunted. Simply mt humble opinion, not a well thought out society
How does the faith of the seven connect them
The reason I didn't talk about the fait, is that from the stories we get, they were already in Andalos when they established this religion, and they have stories about falling stars and visions before they went to the Vale.
@@CompanyOfTheCat theory the star was the broken moon 🌚 the bloodstone emperor destroyed it all goes back to him and the seven were his council members / great houses who joined in his usurpation of the throne
@@wolfsbanealphas617okay but why don't Andals practice necromancy or slavery? The Andals pretty much ended slavery in Westeros. The Andals culture is pretty much the opposite of what bloodstone had been doing.
@mendiel8726 I agree that Bloodstone isn't involved, but they did practice slavery. They stopped after the whole thing with the Valyrians went down, same with magic, they did human sacrifices.
The fate of the defeated was far crueler. As word of the victory spread across the narrow sea, more and more longships set sail from Andalos, and more and more Andals poured into the Vale and the surrounding mountains. All of them required land-land the Andal lords were pleased to give them. Wherever the First Men sought to resist, they were ground underfoot, *reduced to thralls* , or driven out.
-The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale
Clad in mail and wielding iron swords and axes, the Andals swept across the islands, *slaughtering the hairy men in the name of their seven-faced god and taking their women and children as slaves.*
-The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Lorath
An old legend told in Pentos claims that the Andals slew the swan maidens who lured travelers to their deaths in the Velvet Hills that lie to the east of the Free City. A hero whom the Pentoshi singers call Hukko led the Andals at that time, and it is said that he *slew the seven maids not for their crimes but instead as sacrifice to his gods.*
-The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals
The Andals seem like they stopped and realized that might is not that good to practice blood magic and slavery after they had their asses handed to them by the Valyrians in the Scouring of Lorath.
@@CompanyOfTheCat yeah then just blamed everything on vaylaria since no one would question it if the scary dragon lords forced their hand
If they did come from the same area, this has implications for the fan theory of the Free Hold society being more egalitarian than Westerosi Andal society. AFFC is very clear that the Ironborn will not accept Asha or any woman for that matter on the Seastone Chair, nor have they throughout their history. The Andals go without saying since their customary and written laws require a women to be the only true born children left to succeed, and this is difficult to enforce in practice. We have no sources as yet pointing to Andal or First Men queens in Westeros' past, while Dragonstone only had one official ruling lady in its history, and she co-ruled with her brother, with Aegon becoming lord of dragonstone over Visenya despite her being older than him.
The first Men were not at Rhoynish egalitarianism level, but they talked about Queens and ruling ladies, and warrior women and founders that were women and there are places where they have a better place from the neck and up.
Andals and Ironborn though are for sure the most sexist and patriarchal societies in Westeros. Valyrian freeborn women, indeed look like they have way more autonomy, we see explorers, scholars, warrior women, etc. That being said, I think that the OG Seastone chair was a queen's chair, because all the thoughts of Aeron, seem very classic GRRM irony to me. Let's not forget that when the three sisters rebelled they chose a queen Marla Sunderland.
@CompanyOfTheCat They chose Maria Sunderland but then accepted her brother as lord the moment the Targaryens showed up. If I had to guess, Maria was offering independence from the Vale AND North whereas the brother likely would have maintained allegiance to the Vale. Davos I in ADWD makes it clear that the Sister men are neither Vale Men nor Northerners, and hate them both; I wouldn't call them First Men, esp. not with that hand webbing. They also don't keep the Old Gods to my knowledge; my best guess would be that if they are First Men, they're so separate from the North and Vale that they are their own society and ethnic identity, almost like the Skagosi and Ironborn (which fits with all three being Islanders)
@@theduxabides9274 tbh the sistermen I think were from the same bunch as the ironborn, they have quite a lot of similarities. Piracy, Reaving, slaves seafarers, closer kin to fish.
They ditched her after Visenya arrived of course, but that doesn't change that they were ok with her in the beginning. And we have other sea-connected females in the islands around the Vale like Ursula.
@@CompanyOfTheCat Of course Marla is the only case we know about, so I don't know how much it can say about the First Men, esp. given the isolation of the Sistermen. After all, Cregan Stark fought for Rhaenyra despite her claim being inferior to Aegon's, only to have Rickon's daughter Sansa marry her half-uncle when Rickon died, so that Jonnel could cannibalize her claim.
I think your point in 30:13 is misleading they asked about trade not common travel and in context speaks to trade based travel if the the quote was isolated sure but in context no it disagrees with you so you should incorporating this theory
He continues to say how no one has ever crossed it to know what lies on the other side, which not points to trade routes only, but in general. They do not use it as a route, bc no one has ever crossed it to know what lies on the other side. To me, it doesn't sound that out of context, idk.
@@CompanyOfTheCatyou cannot isolate that part from the wider text so obviously their going to be a no no one from westeros has crossed to see whats beyond the sunset sea but even if I use your text I could just as well have it be Westeros people have not crossed it and the existence of the farwynds and their tales contradict and he even continues to speak on trade after your picked out statement so your logic is
question: trade
Martin: im going to make a statement on something else and then answer your question
I dont believe thats how a sentence structure works im not trying to disrespect but its incredible to me that you of all people are isolating a text out of its context
You need to have a way to contribute to the channel in dollars
Aw thanks ❤️
I have a buy me a coffee, but this is it. For now, I don't think I will have something more. I am glad you are having fun with the videos!
What you're saying is, the Andals are Valyrian Protestant Reformers... So, the Ironborn are Western Orthodox Valyrians? 😂
YES
"First Men" is a generic term for anyone who was in Westeros before the Andals started their records
Not exactly. They clearly state the First Men as an ethnic group with the same cultural customs, and they named them like that because supposedly were the first humans in Westeros. They have very specific common cultural customs. The way they talk about them, clearly states them as an ethnic group, it is obvious from many passages in the world book.
The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know.
-The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown
No body is from Ashai these days, it is a shadowed toxic city with no children in it - seemingly they'd die if you brought them i too young or tried to have conceive and birth them there. There is too much poison or maybe magical poison, for young growing bodies.
Now for sure not, back then someone was there, but not the Ironborn if you ask me😂
Are you greek?
Yup, yup
Is it cus they white?
I meaaan...😂
Among other things yes
@@CompanyOfTheCatI love how you mention how the empire could have had x amount of people then say y
This is too depp for me i just started the forst book. Still great research. Lovely accent btw🤍
Have fun reading the rest! Thanks for watching❤