Should Team Orders Be Removed From F1? | WTF1 Podcast #16
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- Massive controversy at Mercedes! The WTF1 Podcast returns with another episode covering all the ongoings from the 2018 Russian Grand Prix. We talk about whether team orders should be banned, how the Mercedes and Force India team orders differed, the impressive drive from Max Verstappen and much more!
#WTF1Podcast #RussianGP #WTF1
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---- Timestamps ----
0:00 Penguins and pigeons
1:23 Welcome
3:26 Mercedes Were Wrong
6:04 Mercedes Were Right
13:24 Hungary 2017
15:27 Championship Tainted?
17:00 Should Team Orders Be Banned?
17:40 Betting Coming To F1
21:21 Verstappen Is Back
23:18 Putin Strikes Again
25:27 Max Saving His Engine
27:33 Best Overtake Of The Race
29:35 Driver Of The Day
31:28 Leclerc vs Vettel
32:05 Predictions For Russia
36:39 Fan Predictions For Russia
37:17 Shoutout To An Uber Driver
37:56 Predictions For Japan
42:08 Fan Predictions For Japan
42:54 2019 Qualifying Changes
48:18 Goodbye! - Sport
In America we don't have any shows on that talk about formula 1 so this podcast is my savior!!! Thanks again!!
Thank you for watching
I feel your pain. Try living in Alabama where it is a shame to watch anything other than Nascar.
Pitlane Podcasts by Aarava is always great. You should check him out too while you're at it.
BIG FACTS!!
@@tlanthony82 dude, i live in the same state, I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE
I think Jess is absolutely correct. Team orders are as old as the sport itself, and as long as its a team sport, they will always be used. Mercedes interests are purely in winning both championships. What the fans want does not, unfortunately, feature that highly in Mercedes list of priorities.
Agreed Ferrari tryed to allow kimi to win the monza race but vettel was focus on overtaking his teammate on 1st lap that he ended up facing the other way. Had ferrari told kimi to let vettel pass and block Ham I am sure alot of ferrari fans would have been happier
When your business model is dependant on people choosing to pay to look at your product (and the logos of other companies placed all over it) it is probably best to not do things that annoy those people and cause them to stop watching.
@@TheMur28 But, isn't Mercedes business model also dependent on being a succesful team? The sponsors will pay up if Mercedes win championships. Don't forget the amount of prize money Mercedes will get as champions too.
October 2nd 2018 Jess still looks fine. Hairstyle on point. (also for the silly season rumours - Kubica got the contract with new sponsors for bigger money background and K-Mag gave Haas 2 millions of income for next season, while Robert can afford for something around 8-9 millions)
Kubica will never drive a f1 race again. get over it!
Never say never. F1 is not about world’s 20 best drivers.
Urban Ciber Well then
I'd hate to be Bottas this season, he's been so unlucky he deserves at least one win this year!
he not in F1 to win one race, he wants to win the championship, to do that he needs a Merc, his best bet is to play the team game, keep improving his consistency which has been lacking but improving, hope he gets better luck/reliability, then next year make sure hes in the championship fight come the mid season break and try and do what Nico did,
Hate to be bottas??? Imagine being Alonso
i think he will be given a free win in the end if the worldchampionship is on lock. but that's just sad :|
G.G. Baxter he won't win a wdc
Podcast actually starts at 1:22
Edit: make that 3:22
Thanks, almost clicked of due to pidgeon talk!
Yea same. Too long of an intro
Thanks mate!
If mercerdes are already 1-2 regardless who was at the front... is there the need for team order ... what kinda fuckery is that?
Mercedes best interest was to win the maximum point.....
if both driver are 1-2 ... why disturb it...
Secondly luis having a battle with his rival contender what is so wrong letting that play out...
As much like we like seeing competition rapped out fast .. is kinda boring if the same team wins or there is no fight from other .....
If Lewis wins WDC before the end of the season Merc should make sure Bottas wins at least one race maybe even ask Lewis to let Valteri by
Yea
Yeah he'll do that.
it's also worthy to note that Lewis hasn't freakin' won a race after he secured his WDC.
yea, stfu, u hav anime prof pic
Nikhil Kumar No! Hamilton needs to break Schumacher's/Ferrari's record
It will probably be Abu Dhabi not gonna lie
I don't think they should ban team orders, but they need to adjust it so drivers like Bottas doesn't have to give up the position to there team mate. The Ocon and Perez orders are fine as it was to help the team get past the driver ahead.
wouldn't work, cant have a rule that says something is ok unless ur winning, the only way to do it would be to enforce the idea that if team orders are used, they must switch back ie Hungary 2017, Ocon/Perez, but again unenforceable if there is drivers between them. Fact is Bottas isn't in F1 to win one race, he can walk away from the weekend knowing he was the best driver, and knowing what he needs to do next year - be more consistent, get better luck, make sure hes in the championship fight so Merc cant pick Lewis over him, Do what Rosberg did and win the championship, then one win wont matter a thing
I expect Merc will pay him a win bonus anyway, not for team orders but because up to the point they switched he was odds on for the win. There again he was in Baku as well. Shit happens in F1 just ask Torro Rosso !!
@@clansome yeah but I'm sure Bottas doesn't care about money, he wanted that win.
Before a decade or more FIA banned team orders. After the teams find other ways to pass the message with the classic "X driver is faster than you". Now team orders are back again.
I am still surprised that this channel is not hitting 1 million subs, cuz it feels like it already has more than a million subs with the content that u guys are making. (Keep it up, I'll stay subbed until you guys hit that milestone and higher. For real in all honesty, one of the best channel that I like to wake up to watch in the morning.)
I enjoy the podcasts, and some of their content. It's no surprise though. They've been busted in plagiarizing other peoples content and stuff in the past. It's more a channel for the casual F1 fan i'd say.
I mean "plagiarized" is a strong word, I would say "similar" because the formula 1 topic it self is fixed as in everything is the same as in video topics. For example: aerodynamics of F1 are very complicated for people who don't really know the physics behind it. This channel and many other channels that cover F1 made their video a little easier to understand which in turn can make the videos look very similar.
At 0:55 who have we spotted?? Is it Ali??
That will be Ali!!
He just woke up after crying himself to sleep during the GP? rip hartley.
Great pod guys! I break my mouse clicking so fast to any @WTF1 video!
Define: team
Team
/tēm/
Noun
1. Driver number one
Synonim: Lewis Hamilton
Context: "I understand the reason. It is for the team."
0:53 the head at the left back of the image, at the top of the table😂😂😂
Mercedes did everything right. Championships - goals of the season.
It's worth it. Did you watch the first half of the season???
Aaaaaand here comes jess defending hamilton again.... Now she just needs to hate on verstappen for nothing and she's fully back
Thanks for choosing my prediction! I wasn't even being serious with it, but I couldn't think of anything that hadn't already been said
If there were 4 quali sessions I would have 5 random cars going out each time to give drivers more room on track and then at the end just put the lap times in order and that's the grid
Bevans Fifa like Formula E
Thank you for giving my daughter the shoutout. She’s only 8 years old but she tries her best to understand what y’all are talking about. I do my best to explain to her. She was so happy that you gave her a shoutout. Thank you so incredibly much.
I feel like many forget the thing that back in 2002 (to stay at the Schumi, Barichello example) there were fewer points to give for top6/top8. First got 10 points and 2nd like 8. With such a point system and fewer races per season a team order like that is (to me) much more exusable than today...
I think that the force india swap was okey because they swapped back, the merceders one i wouldn't have cared about if they swapped back. They very well could have swapped without risk for the 1-2. Yeah 50 points is nice to have, but to take away bottas win, a win he earned full well over the weekend, none the less over the season, good luck finding a more unlucky driver
In the grand scheme it doesn't matter, Bottas isn't going to win the championship, hes not in F1 to win one race, he wants to be in the Merc to win the championship, Ocon would be in that car next season if Bottas didn't play the team game, his best chance for a while now is to keep improving, keep having weekends like this, keep proving his worth and come back and do what Nico did.
@@g.g.baxter4868 Lets be realistic: Bottas will never win a champion in that Mercedes with Lewis as teammate. So yes, Bottas is there to get the maximum possible for the team but also for his own good. He is there to get some points and possibly 1 or 2 wins in a season. This win was his win and would be great for his CV and for statistics because he usually does so well in Sochi and Mercedes were just: 'Screw you're well beeing".
@@Rui-wb4hu The flaw with that viewpoint though is what is probably in Bottas' contract, which will state he has to do what the team want. Pretty much every driver will have some wording similar to that in their contract. Such clauses basically ensure drivers aren't able to just look after their own good, but to ensure the teams interests are protected above those of the individual driver.
nah force india was ok becuase force india is not Mercedes and not Hamilton. thats all
Team orders were banned from 2003 to 2010, it didn't work the best example of that is the famous ferrari team order to Massa : "Fernando is faster than you"
It didn't work because the FIA are a bunch of pussies and didn't disqualify Ferrari and remove all their constructors points.
First time I've watched the podcasts as usually been busy. What have I missed all this season.
Yes, this channel definitely helped me become an F1 fan!
270k Subs Congratulations
I wonder what would happen if team orders were implemented in the games.
I wonder what happens if "off-track" is implemented in real life.
They say Formula 1 is a team sport. Team sport for the constructor and an individual sport for the driver. Team orders should go away and if anyone tries to manipulate the result of the race, they should be penalized with a race ban and points stripped away.
ronnie_g
It went away, and didn't work so whats your point.
They worked around it anyway remember "Alonso is faster than you, do you understand this message".
Team orders have been around since the beginning of the sport, and what Merc did was justified they need to lengthen their lead in the championship Bottas is not even up for World Champion contention anyway.
My idea to spice up qualifying:
Q1, Q2 and Q3 all stay the same, but the top 5 in Q3 line up on the grid for a 5 lap race to battle it out for pole in the actual race and so on. (No team orders allowed)
Allow team orders but if used have a fine attached as a deterrent
This podcast is a great combo for me to practice the English Language as a fan of F1. Cheers from Brazil !
Hey guys
I love wtf1 and I thought you're ideas on qualifying were great. They should have a session with all 20 cars and the top 8 go into a 1v1 battle like 1st v 2nd, 3rd v 4th etc. It would make drivers push harder in Q1 and it would provide great racing on Saturday
Jess's idea is interesting. I'd go for something like the Ryder Cup.
20 drivers so...
Q1: The bottom 8 drivers (at the first race it would be the drivers from the bottom 4 teams last season, at each subsequent race it would be the bottom 8 from the previous qualifying) are drawn randomly against another driver, so you essentially have 4 matches. They have 10 minutes and unlimited tyres to set the fastest time. The 4 winners go through and the 4 losers take the last 4 grid spots and that's based on their fastest time.
Q2: The remaining 12 drivers join those 4, so you have 16 drivers drawn randomly into 8 matches. So you could have Vettel v Hamilton in this session as it's a random draw. Again they have 10 minutes, a congested track and unlimited tyres, and the 8 fastest drivers eliminate their opponent.
Q3: 8 minutes for the 8 drivers, drawn into 4 random matches. Same process as above, the 4 winners go through to the semi-finals.
Q4: The final 4 battle it out for pole, they each get 2 runs and their fastest time counts, but they have to make 2 runs or their fastest time is discounted. Fastest gets pole.
So in theory you could have:
Q1 (8 minutes)
Alonso v Gasly
Hartley v Stroll
LeClerc v Vandoorne
Ericsson v Sirotkin
Let's say Alonso, Hartley, LeClerc and Ericsson go through.
Q2 (10 minutes)
Hamilton v Perez
Vettel v Alonso
Ricciardo v Sainz
Hulkenberg v Ericsson
Hartley v Bottas
Verstappen v Raikkonen
LeClerc v Magnussen
Ocon v Grosjean
Say Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Hulkenberg, Bottas, Verstappen, LeClerc and Ocon go through.
Q3 (8 minutes)
Hamilton v Bottas
Ricciardo v Vettel
Verstappen v Ocon
Hulkenberg v LeClerc
Your final 4 shootout could be Hamilton, Ricciardo, Verstappen and LeClerc. Makes it more unpredictable and gives you rivalries and match-ups during the session. Also means that you could have a big match-up early in Q2 which eliminates top drivers.
I can do whatever I want.
Fake
Long may it continue 😒
@@matthewthomas2546 can you verify?
2:55 the sup there shows matt's wittiness
Jess, your question at 33:23 about if anybody have tried that, it was something similar that happen to Magnussen, 2014 get hired to race for McLaren... 2015 Demoted to third Driver, and fired around October / November... and are out of Formula One... 2016 February get hired to race for Renault... 2017 and on, get hired to race for HAAS
Love the podcast, but literaly 100% of the time I was going "Jess, hell that dress"
How about a mini race qualy. Cars get allocated into 5 groups of 4. With each group doing a 5 lap race. The grid order is decided first by finishing position in your heat, and then by fastest lap time or total finish time.
@WTF1 That final shot at 48:34 of the faces 3 of you in the podcast, esp if dowloaded. OUCH Ali really got his own back !! Love it and love your podcasts (even if I disagree with your views on Max and Charles).
Awesome podcast to listen to discussing race weekend and predictions...top driver of 2 leading teams I would love to actually see happen
Coming into this weekend my thoughts on teams was: "If you don't like team orders, don't have teams" but after seeing that, I'm starting to reconsider my viewpoint.
Jess is a genius - Q4 between the top two drivers (from different teams) would be bloody epic. And from a standing start would probably be the best bit of the weekend (in terms of action).
They did ban team orders once, it resulted in ‘Fernando is faster than you’ and zero enforcement from the FIA. It’s
nearly impossible to enforce such a rule.
Jess laugh at the start was 😍😍😍
Make a video with just 45:00 to the end, the FIA *needs* to see that. The idea for a 1 on 1 for pole is the best idea I've ever heard.
BEST PODCAST
That into tho xDD
a way to combat team orders could be to do what they do in speedway and award two teammate that is driving right after each other the same amount of points.
How I'd love qualifying to be:
-5 (or so) lap race
-Grid in reverse championship order
Jess you are absolutely hilarious and your sense of humor and laugh are contagious, love you on the podcast
Jess explaining Hamilton's move on Vettel: "Very Very Good" (some face emotions)
Matt and Tommy: "yeah it was pretty decent" (head shakes)
Fun to see the passion they all have for their own drivers. *cough* Matt and Charles *cough*
0:54 oh hello👋🏼
Rule change idea: Design tires that theoretically should require a two stop in order complete the race(rated for fewer laps), but still only require that each car make one stop. You then get cars potentially pushing tires beyond their useful lifespan(taking a chance) versus teams who may take a more conservative(less risky) two stop approach.
FP1, 10.00: 1 hour on Saturday
Qualifying, 14:00 Saturday: Outlap + 1 hotlap in reverse order of previous race
can you imagine the commentators telling viewers about the betting odds "vettel to win 1/1.75"
The team order At force india was way more reasonable. Ocon couldnt pass Magnussen so they gave perez a few laps to try. when he also wasnt able to pass they gave Ocon the position back. They tried everything to pass magnussen wich is different from the Mercedes team order.
"Formula 1 is a team sport." It`s not that simple. In case of the constructors title, yes, it`s a team sport. The drivers title isn`t a thing that matters on a for a team in perspective of sportsmanship. And Mercedes doesen`t have to care who`s on 1 and who on 2. So if they switch to save a position they have to switch back. Everything else is unsporty. And abaout Lewis saying he didn`t want that, why did he do it? Scared of Merc throwing him out?
Uh, cause if Bottas slows down for Hamilton to pass him and then Hamilton slows down so he doesn't pass him then Vettel would just fly by both of them?
Jess, I like the qualifying idea! That would be sweet!
mmmm...a hot red head...
I like it!
You did miss that Ferrari actually "loaned" Kvyat to Toro Rosso as they stated in their statement.
Why was one of the podcasts privated?
Love the podcasts
Very proud that i was the only one getting a full point for my prediction
in australian super cars we have a qualifing from 11 - 24 then have a one lap shot out from tenth to first. this would be awersome for the sport because there would be no trafic and it means that the top teams would actually have to try in Q1
My idea for Qualifying in F1:
Idea 1:
Q1 + Q2 the Elimination Qualifying
Q3 Normal Qualifying
Idea 2:
Like Indycar
Q1 + Q2 Normal Qualifying
Q3 One Lap Qualifying (6 or 8 Cars)
Normal Q1, 2 and 3, and then a top two shootout, only 1 lap allowed, and the shootout time gives them absolute grid position (so if they're slower than the q3 times they drop down) to froce them to push hard. Give a 10 place penalty if a driver doesn't attempt a lap (to avoid Merc locking 1 and 2 and saving tires in the last part). You could maybe do something with tires as well, like force the top 2 to start on their shootout set, although that might be too much of a punishment.
I would love a quali format like at the Bathurst 12h. First a normal "Q1", then the Top 10 from that will have to do one lap each
Add pit stops to the qualifying mix in Q2....make them run 3 laps with a pit stop on lap 2. And don't change the time length of the session.
What if you make Q1 and Q2 into 1 session, Q3 becomes Q2 and then a 5 lap race between the #1 and #2? Might add some extra excitement on the saturday. Unfortunately I don't think teams will agree because of the risk of damaging their cars.
Ali makes a guest appearance at 0:54. hahahaha
It would be great to keep the current mode of quali, but at the end do the thing with the best drivers from the top two teams that you proposed but don't let them do a round ech, rather have them do a mini race against each other, e.g. 2 rounds with a rolling start or something like that
I think the Ocon and Perez incident was fine because they let Ocon back through.
Short answer : yes.
Add "running straight into the car of main title contender" to the list.
I wouldn't mind 4 (Q1-Q4) qualy sessions if they reduce the time for each session massively (like 6-8 mins). Each session 5 drivers drop out. Tyres in Q3 (instead of Q2) become race starting tyre (at least one top team driver on new tyres) This way it's more likely that a top driver will drop out while most of them still get to shoot it out in the final session (Q4). Would give more variety on the starting grid, more top drivers dropping out because of traffic or mistakes, more action for viewers as there are cars constantly on the track and P6 would be the first to use new tyres for the race which would add a great strategic aspect for the race.
Also make it mandatory to use 3rd drivers in at least one of the practice session to showcase talent.
Moto gp style practice works very well, top 10 times from the three practice sessions go straight through to q2 but in q1 the two fastest riders go through to q2, makes practice interesting and meaningful
Regarding qualifying, I think it has to incentivize teams to actually run full performance right from the start.
If they think they're safe, they won't run at full engine load nor will they burn their tires off.
You need to incentivize the risk of possibly crashing, with a make-or-break system. Shorter sessions doesn't work due to traffic. Longer sessions doesn't work because they won't use their tires. Possibly one of the best ways to go about this is to split the top of the championship standings into one half, split the bottom into the other half, split those into quarters and run with shorter sessions.
Let's take Red Bull, Mercedes, Force India, Sauber and Ferrari for example, assuming that those are the five teams performing best in championship standings at the beginning of qualifying.
You put those five teams against each other in Q1. Top 5 advance, that's it and that's all. The drivers get one lap here and that's it.
Then you put the other five teams, like Williams and McLaren that aren't doing as well as they could, against each other. Top 5 advance again. That's Q2. It determines the spots who get the chance for 6th-10th.
Then you have Q3 with the bottom half from the first two qualifying sessions, to see if they can improve their time, and times are reset so they have to go out. They have 5 minutes to get a good lap.
Then you have Q4: the top five overall battle it out with a single lap with all other times reset.
This means that championship points standings are crucial, that you have to turn the wick way up twice (Q1 and Q4) and that there's no real incentive not to push to the limits.
Find a flaw, I dare you.
4 Sessions, 5 drop out, 3 of them like now but the last one for the top 5 would be one shot quali.
Don't think I've ever seen anyone be as passionate about anything as Jess is about qualifying
Tommy with the Top Knot, make it happen!!!
With 4 round qualifying they should knock out 8 then 6 then 4, you would get a 2 person podium shoot out and the top 3 teams would have a clear track in Q3 to set some Blisteringly fast times
the biggest problem of f1 by far is, that the performance gap between the teams is way to big. if the teams would be closer together, the qualifying would also be more interesting
It's a team sport! I take no offence to seeing team orders play out. Renault sitting out in qualifying was way worse for the spot than the effective driver swap. Also... you can't really ban them, we've tried that before.
I think they should go down to 2 qualifying sessions. Take all the times from FP sessions, the 8 fastest automatically go to Q2, the bottom 12 have to go through Q1 and 15-20 minutes to qualify the top 2 join in Q2. Then you have a 15 minute top 10 battle for pole. Short amount of time, traffic, and the chances of slower cars being mixed in with the fast means the sessions will not be the same every time.
Qualifying idea: keep q1 and q2 the same but q3 is a one shot, one lap super pole fir the top 10 staring from p10 from q2
Jess is love.
New qualifying like what Jess said but the top 6 would have to be from different teams. Would make more battles and hopefully change up the top 6 every now and then?
You CAN'T ban team orders.
We had a "ant-team order rule" (2003-2010: "Team orders, they interfere with the race result are prohibited) and we saw how well that went ("Fernando is faster than you").
F1 was, is and will be always a team sport. Team orders is a part of the sport. Period.
Team orders are not pretty, i unterstand, but you can't get rid of it by any rule that put in place, so they will be around longer.
0:54 i see you!
Right now I saw that You have a Skin as a mechanic (F1 2018). that is quit cool 😂👍🏻
Make q3 be standing start qualifying like a rally stage or make the q4 be that if they have to have 4 qualy sessions
People keep on saying turn 13 was a weird place for Bottas to let Hamilton through, but I think it was the best place because if it was on the straight it wouldn't take much for Vettel to get alongside Bottas as he'd have had a double tow and DRS. Turn 13 is a slow and tight corner which would make it more difficult for Vettel to pass under braking, as it is an awkward angle, than doing so at the end of the straight.
What about banning teamradio completely? You can use FIA to control the safety and traffic via the radio and for the rest, silence.
If Team order is okay, then there should be a world wide ban on gambling on F1, because this Team order to Bottas costing a lot of money for many fan around the world, and I really don't think "these" people are that happy with Mercedes at this moment...
Or maybe if they use team order in the future, the team should cover ALL bets on there cars... ;-))
1 lap qualifying would be great!!!
Qually as now, only once the grids been 'set' any driver within a predetermined (based on a % of predicted the lap time) margin of the predicted fastest time gets another free set of tyres and goes into a one lap shoot out for pole, if its close u could have 3 or 4 drivers, but a minimum of 2 set in the rules even if no one is close enough. Q3 pole sitter decides if they want to run first or last. So at tracks like Monaco, maybe 0.2 of a second, somewhere like Spa neared 0.5-0.6, averaging out at around 0.3-0.4 for most tracks
I felt you contradicted yourself a bit there Jess.
We all understand team orders is part of the sport at the same time though such blatant ones etc do bring the sport into disrepute and takes a lot away from the paying fans. Then when you consider getting coming into the sport it's a very very fine line.
Even Ross brawn regrets 2002 if you read total competition.
I'm not calling for a ban on team orders far from it however I think the needs to be some form of restrictions and if something like technical issue happens or different strategy's the teams have to provide that evidence to the FIA
No to team orders, in my opinion winning a f1 race and/or title should be on own merrit. Just look at the reactions after the race a driver should be hyped after winning the race. But I just generally feel that a lot of change is needed in f1 to make it more exciting.
A view on team orders... any team on the grid now would like to wrap up the championships as soon as possible, so even though the fans think it might be unnecessary for them with lewis leading by 40 points but if there is a way to make it that it doesnt go to the last race im sure they will take it given that it doesnt break any of the rules
And in a surprise move, Ocon gets the 2019 Mercedes drive as Bottas moves to Williams stating, "I wanted a better opportunity for a race win."
3 word race review: "Valtteri, it's James"
If Bottas had driven better this year and maybe won a race or two then I don’t think the Sochi decision would be such a big issue. Yes the decision sucked but Ferrari are way better than 2017. Tough call. Right call.
If Bottas had driven better, been a bit luckier, he would be in the championship fight and Merc wouldn't have made the call, They've only ever enforced team orders to calm on track fighting to preserve the win or when one driver is out of the championship, Bottas isn't in F1 to win a race, hes there to win the championship, best think he can do is walk away head high, keep improving and make sure he does everything he can to be more consistent and in the championship fight next year
It wasn't obvious because he slammed on the breaks. It was obvious because they played a radio message saying "Ok Valterie, you need to let Hamilton pass at turn 13, he's got a blister and we need to protect from Vettel."
Well hello there ali... I see you down there!
No!