Nintendo’s Obsession With Gameplay is Dumb. Here’s Why.
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- Nintendo is famous for always putting gameplay first! Nintendo is usually more concerned with the moment to moment gameplay of their games than any other big player in the industrie. This approach allowed them to craft revolutionary gaming experiences over and over and over again.
Until very recently. Because, recently I played through Nintendo’s newest Mario adventure, Bowser’s Fury, and while I overall really enjoyed my time with Bowser’s Fury, it also kind of opened my eyes for a problem that many recent Nintendo games have.
Many of Nintendo’s recent titles are so obsessively putting gameplay over everything else, that it actually starts to make their games worse.
So today we are going to take a deep dive into this problem. We are going to take a look at how Nintendo crafted many brilliant games in the past using their gameplay first approach, we’ll chat about how gameplay is only one of the many parts required to create a great game, and we will discuss how Nintendo brutally neglected important parts of bowser’s fury, because of their unhealthy obsession with gameplay.
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00:00 - Intro
01:52 - Everything Gameplay
07:47 - A Tiny Garden
12:20 - Clanker's Teeth and Jinxy's Nose
16:20 - The Shrine and the Scarecrow
21:07 - Bowser's Fury
-------------------
Link to the Nintendo Treehouse Tumblr post:
nintendotreehouse.tumblr.com/...
Link to the Interview about Hakoniwa gardens and Galaxy:
www.wired.com/2007/12/intervi...
Thanks to DiggerandIndy and longplays.org for providing open footage of Luigi’s Mansion!
------------------Credits for the Music-------------------------
Super Mario Galaxy OST - Good Egg Galaxy
Bowser’s Fury OST - Crisp Climb Castle
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time OST - Gerudo Valley
Paper Mario, Origami King OST - Sweetpaper Valley
Paper Mario, Origami King OST - Autumn Mountain
Paper Mario, Origami King OST - Folded Soldier Banquet
Paper Mario, Origami King OST - The Elastic Entertainer Enters
Banjo and Kazooie OST - Gruntilda’s Lair (Underwater / Gobi’s Valley / Click Clock Wood )
------Holfix
/ holfix
HolFix - Beyond The Kingdom
• [Free Music] HolFix - ...
------Kevin MacLeod
"Adventure Meme"
Kevin MacLeod incompetech.com
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons.org/licenses/b... - Hry
I like to imagine that he always had a framed photo of Clanker lying around
He also had a framed picture of Princess Ruto in the background
Great name and picture and amazing character, subscribed
Wait he didn't?
Oh
OK
For all the talk of box gardens, it's amazing you didn't mention Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, which was directly inspired by them.
I would have expected him to talk about that.
@123 456 same
Well it's a puzzle game. Of course they're all differently crafted. Like Baba is You. That game was wonderful.
@@nowonmetube
Yeah, even in Baba is You the coating philosophy is greatly used, even up to the way the commands are introduced.
What should you play with in the lake area? With Sink, and in the space area? With Empty.
The reason he has a picture of Clanker just hit me.
It's a literal framed objective.
Omg
Ive never play banjo, can you explain?
@@Ryoogah1
Framing is a literary term meaning “to add a narrative that surrounds a story”
Personally, I think he just likes frames
10:30 The fact that I could recognize three out of four of these just from the reductions is really telling about how iconic Mario Galaxy's levels were.
Which galaxy couldn't you recognize. I assume Melty molten galaxy?
@@TomatoRadio IIRC, that was the one. Good guess!
I recognized all of them
@@SuperSomieStuff Nice!
I have to admit, it would be cool if the fury shadows were each of the playable 3d world characters instead of just Luigi.
And running around, mimicing those gameplay abilities and stats?
That would have been creative, and I wouldn't have minded doing it 5 times if that were the case.
@@wariolandgoldpiramid Same here, and why not let them use power ups as well?
That's what I expected after seeing the first fury shadow. That was definitely a missed opportunity.
Yeah, but it seems like they…forgot this DLC was related to 3D World? Outside of plastering cats everywhere they kind of ignore the base-game
@@wariolandgoldpiramid I can imagine Toad being a nightmare with him being faster. And Rosalina can like shoot projectile Star-bits at you. And Peach can hover. Noice.
I love how he says it's fun from it's very first level to second to last, because Champion Road is impossible.
Git gud scrub
Captain Toad’s Fiery Finale is the second to last then. This means the Mystery House Marathon and Champion’s Road are the most tedious, unfun levels.
@@casperdewith i would say 3rd to last but touchescreen is sadly no more
It is easy compared to the Perfect Run in Super Mario Galaxy 2
@Thibault PECCOUD I prefer two Tanooki suits personally. Losing one is easy and I’m used to 3D Land 🙂
I kinda want to bring up Okami.
It's one of my most favourite games and it is done beautifully. It also has a small side objective in which you can feed animals.
You approach the animals, find the bag of food they like and then you feed them and get your reward. You don't have to interact with these animals ever again.
But you can! You can headbutt them, you can pick them up (or try too when they are too big), you can bark at them, you can use your brush techniques at them. And each and every one of the animals, and there are a LOT in this game, are programmed to react to this.
When you headbutt a cat, it will fly away and then hiss at you. If you try to pick up a horse, it shakes you off and runs away. If you do the same to a tiger, it gets mad and hits you. If you let flowers bloom, vegetarian animals will come to eat them, carnivorous will come and play with them. If you let flowers bloom in front of monkeys they will cheer at you.
This serves no gameplay purpose at all, but it is fun to do and gives the game an incredible charm.
It's this charm that I want to see more in games. And Nintendo's most recent games don't have it anymore.
That charm IS STILL THERE!
It definitely goes to show that some of the most memorable shrine challenges in BOTW are the ones where you aren’t in the shrine at all. The little island garden where you’ll be murdered for crushing flowers, the giant monument to Gerudo warriors of the past, the pitch black forest, the deserted island where you start with nothing. I loved the puzzle-based shrines, but none are nearly as clear in my memory. They were fun, but not memorable, not in the way those other shrines were
I think we can all agree that Ceave should have a gardening show
saw this before the gardening part and i just thought “yeah you’re right”
I would 100% watch that. I loved watching him talk about Hakoniwa gardens more than I expected to.
Yah
@@supremechaosbeing2696 talk about foreshadowing lol
The fact i could immediately tell what stages and what game the images at 10:10 were from shows how memorable Nintendo games truly are.
I feel like that's also another potential point on this entire video. Had the theming in those stages not been as good as they were, would they still be that recognizeable?
Same. I played that game so much in my childhood that I instantly knew exactly what stages they were from.
I had no clue they were from different levels lol
I feel like this is more an example of how much youve played the game. ive only ever played galaxy once and i didnt recognize any of them
@@mreevee7785 I feel like its more about how thoroughly you played and enjoyed the game, I've only played Galaxy twice, but recognized every level there, because I made sure to do everything I possibly could do in the game.
I feel like this has been going on for a while. Sunshine had those platforming areas without F.L.U.D.D that didn't feel like part of the world, they just felt like they were there specifically for that challenge.
"How cool would it be if we took away FLUDD and they had to platform without their built-in second chances?"
"How do we make it so you can platform through the same area twice, once without FLUDD, and have it be meaningfully different?"
"Lol just stick em in a void with level creator blocks and a patterned skybox"
"do it lmao"
I'd recommend checking out A Hat in Time for this. The Seal the Deal DLC added a bunch of new standalone challenges that work like having FLUDD taken away, or losing Cappy, or any number of "can you beat _____ without _____" challenges, but built-in to the game. Eg, get a certain time piece without jumping. So you have to learn how to ascend without jumping, what badges are good for that, and the best part is it takes you through already existing levels. You don't go to the no-jump realm with a special version of the challenge. That level you did, do it again, but don't jump this time. It's far more interesting to see the level in a whole new light and discover whole new routes and strategies than to take the pre-created route in the special challenge zone like the odyssey challenges.
It's frustrating being given the 'no cappy' challenges in odyssey and they use it for like "kill fire bro" and "walljump 10 times", as opposed to, say, putting you through the moon cave gauntlet, or fighting a boss, or anything more interesting than a 15s challenge. Thankfully A Hat in Time doesn't pull punches, odds are good you won't even beat all the Snatcher challenges because some are really difficult, but super rewarding to finish. Timed train rush without jumping still gives me nightmares, but in a good way.
I don't like those stages, but the developers were forced to make them due to the tight deadlines, so I can see why they're in Sunshine. However, I dislike them in the newer games because Nintendo has tons of money and could easily create better environments, and deadlines could easily be shifted. The music in Odessey's platforming areas is also some of the worst Nintendo music I have ever heard. It's too bland compared to the rest of the game.
And those were easily the most aggravating parts of the game
Those were some of my favorite parts.
I liked the change-up in the gameplay.
Sunshine’s bonus levels felt good to me because they had atmosphere, the backgrounds and weird music gave them an interesting feel you wouldn’t expect. Compare to Odyssey’s bonus rooms which I feel are what you described Sunshine’s as and nothing more
I love minimalist interior design and have done for a long time. This reminded me a lot of how I thought about it when I started, to how I see it now. In the beginning I didn't want anything that wasn't functional because it was unnecessary. As I grew older I started to realize I lived in empty boxes and that "useless" things as plants and paintings were what brought the home to life.
That made sense in my head at least:)
Anyway great video!
I wonder if you'd like Baba is You (puzzle game)
Me: Carefully analyzes wording of intro trying to decide if video is sarcastic or not
Me: carefully analyzes the whole video to decide that same thing
Same.
No
The April Fools joke was that he made a real video when we expected a joke video. Got us good, Ceave!
Mindblown!
I was expecting a joke video, clicked on it, saw serious topic, then it got to gardening and I thought it was a joke video again
Eh
@@bird9188 same😂
I'm gonna pretend that the joke was saying "Banjo and Kazooie" at 13:08
Or what if all the Mommy cats, were distinct from each other, maybe themed personalities like pirate, or punk, and the missing kittens playing off that theme? Now even with the same exact objective there is something that makes them stand out from each other.
This
Or even just different cat breeds
I just looked up the kitten locations because out of all the missions in bowser's fury(which a lot of them are already blandly copypasted) finding all 9 of the exact same lost kittens has to be the most boring and tedious mission in the game.
I think luigi's mansion 3 was a really good balance of gameplay and character it was a pretty fun game but it also had characters and a story and like. When was the last time you saw a mario cutscene with personality?
Mario + Rabbids
I thought this was a April Fools video, but Ceave never does that.
GOOD omg I've seen so many today
Edit ok I fell for the woooosh
okey
Wait tho he is to good at persuasion some of his arguments make actual sense
If this is an April fools video it's getting disliked. I'm sick of them and it's not even funny or fooling anyone
@@callumfootitt5366 is it a joke?
Posting a normal video on april's fools is more subversive than posting an april's fool video
I think this is an April fools video
@@zachsteiner it's not, just watch it
@@zachsteiner Are you done with the video now
@@zachsteiner how about now?
@@zachsteiner what about Now?
this is one of those obscure unconscious feelings you're never able to quite put your finger on. great job on explaining your points!
This is such a great statement and huge props for putting it into video form Ceave. This is something I have felt a lot recently too but I couldn’t ever really put it into words, until you made this video. A lot of the reason people look back at Nintendo’s older games so fondly and with so much nostalgia in my opinion is for how lovingly crafted they were. Not only were they fun gameplay wise but their worlds were all so unique and beautiful for their times. When Mario sunshine came out it was so fun to dive into the adventure of Mario falsely accused for a crime he didn’t commit on a vacation resort and all the crazy adventures accompanied by it. Mario doesn’t need to have deep storytelling, it never has even had it. But it has lost its charm. We went from sunshine’s amazing premise and fun adventures to “oh no, bowser is big and angry, find some cat shines to calm him down”. Why are we even helping bowser junior? Bowser has always been and enemy and even Mario looks not interested to help out. It just seems rushed with little thought put into it. And all the little adventures are gone. It starts to feel the same after a while. I would just like to see Mario go on some of those crazy adventures like he used to go on, with the coating to back it up, and keep it all fresh and interesting. Good job and a great video Ceave :)
Mario sunshine suffers from having barely any platform challenges because they try to contextualize every platform into the world. Mario and galaxy strike a much better balance between aesthetics and gameplay. Tick tock clock doesn't make much sense when you think about it, but it makes enough sense for the player to not think about it and to inform players on how gameplay elements will work.
@@toowiggly Tick Tock Clock actually changes depending on what time it shows as you enter.
I understand your point but that's just cherrypicking, 90% of Mario games from all decades can be summed up with "Bowser bad save the princess" and we still had interesting takes on it in recent years, like I could easily make the opposite point by mentioning Mario 64 and Odyssey, or SMB1 and Kingdom Battle, also Bowser's Fury is not a fully fledged game at all and is essentially a secondary gamemode so comparing it to mainline games is just not correct, why doesn't the original Mario Bros remake programmed into the Superstar Saga cartridge have the same worldbuilding depth than Mario Galaxy? Yeah that just sounds dumb lol
I would have appreciated a video on what Mario would gain from fifteen hours of unskippable cutscenes, but this works too.
That's what I was expecting when I clicked the video too
Mario Gear Solid
I don't know about Mario or another platformer, but I do know of a 1st party Nintendo game with 14 hours of story cutscenes and it's one of my favourite games of all time.
@@angeldude101 And which one is that?
@@spaghettiking653 Xenoblade maybe?
10:37
I instantly recognized the Desert level and Cookie level from Super Mario Galaxy and now I want a whole quiz show where you show "bare minimum levels" and have people guess what actual video game levels they are
I recognized all
And yeah that was my 1st one
Same
Very interesting case about contextualizing challenges. I have never really seen these challenge rooms in Nintendo games as artificial, but when comparing it to something like banjo and kazooie you make an interesting point. Also for me in particular, I really like the shrines in BotW because of the many different ways you can solve them (or skip them). I wonder if Nintendo would continue to make fun gameplay but add a little extra in the stpry / contextualizing department. It could make their games even better.
I think they should always use basic thing TIL the final release. Let the art and music work separately from the game prototypes so they can design good gameplay without distraction of the other thing and the other teams solely working their own and push the visual at it’s most beautiful. This also effectively stop leaks happening because texture asset and gameplay asset is separated.
This video resonates even more strongly after playing Tears of the Kingdom. It's an absolutely incredible game brought down by the fact they don't try to reframe reused content, objectives, enemies , or even story elements AT ALL. The entire game is simultaneously brilliant, while also feeling very focus-tested.
I love how the fire flower fire power power up fire ball’s name just keeps evolving
Had to watch it 4 times to get it, guess I'm still not fully awake...
First time?
@@RGC_animation Nope, we had a lot of fire flower fire power power ups before
Super fire flower firey flower fire power-up ball
"Nintendo's Obsession With Gameplay is Dumb" must be the same mindset people had when they were making automatic levels in Mario Maker
you
Hi
Bow down, cause this one’s spitting facts
new pfp
@@TheGalaxyWings yup
I love how “fuzziful” just becomes a normal word that we become used to hearing.
When I played A Hat in Time i noticed that some platforms in this game are awkward to jump on unlike newer mario games where platforms always perfect shapes (like sometimes hills aren't hills anymore but just stairs made out of grass). That's what i like in A Hat in Time that environments don't have perfectly shaped platforms like in real world.
0:19 "digital crack" yea that sums up Factorio pretty well lmao
Leagal*
What why legal
@@walterg3254 because they are waiting
can confirm, its way too easy to lose track of time playing factorio lol
Just gonna do this one thing in factorio
6 hours later
Wait, it hasn't been only 2 hours? I haven't even done that one thing i got on for
26:20 "Waluigi's lost Smash invitation"
I'm dead xD
Also the subtitles lol
Please
It’s crazy to see Ceave’s total transformation from a CZcamsr doing 2d Mario completion challenges to one of the most insightful game design commentators on CZcams. Tbh I loved him then and it’s even better now.
@Followup Account Lol maybe bots are copying my comment but I definitely wrote this
@Followup Account Idk how they could be word for word with something that I wrote out of my head
Holy shit you’re not just a voice and have an actual physical body? My god I had no idea.
Same from me
He did a face reveal a while back, and this has stayed for his videos ever since.
You have no idea, he has not just a body, he even showed us, ghat he has got a shower head.
you see, this is an april fools prank. the absence of a prank can be a prank in itself, and Ceave has outplayed us all in 4D prank chess
Lmao
Checkmate
"[3D world] is just a ton of fun from its first stage to its second to last"
This is the most accurate description of this game I've ever heard.
I don't get it.
@@fluffynator6222 the final bowser battle kinda sucks
@@finnvaneekelen4966
Naaaaa.
It's super cool with him chasing you down and all.
@@finnvaneekelen4966 oh? I thought this was about champion's road
@@finnvaneekelen4966 he’s talking about Champion’s Road
Great analysis. I started thinking about the illusion of new content by coating as it is done in WarioWare, specially the first game: like half of the games are press A at the right time, except a new scene is given in each one.
i’ve felt this way too! i’m glad you made a video about this because when i’ve expressed this people have called me “ungrateful” or something to that effect.
my problem is these don’t feel like places that existed before mario got here, which is crucial to immersion in any media. it feels like they were like, conjured up by some weird god-like entity and when mario leaves, they’ll disappear too. there’s nothing that indicates these places existed, there’s nothing that indicates it’ll exist when he leaves, there’s nothing that indicates any kind of life existed here. the platforms don’t even have any kind of wear or unevenness. they’re all perfectly shaped “video game floor” like you said.
bowsers fury has the cat theme going on, but why? why are there so many cats here? why are the bells here? if you remove the ears from enemies and the giant bells or change them to something else, nothing in the world feels out of place. what if some of the islands were cat-themed? maybe big rotating scratch posts? giant cat toys for obstacles/platforms? i don’t know, but it just feels like there’s nothing giving them personality or a soul like you mentioned
Bowser’s Fury has the cat theme because of the CAT SUIT from the main game. It’s that obvious.
@@benmalsky9834 there’s also a double cherry in the game- why isn’t it cherry themed? your logic is flawed.
@@deanmoriarty6015 Well unlike you, I don’t judge.
@@deanmoriarty6015 I don’t question everything with Mario games, I just accept things as is.
The locked 8 axis movement in 3D World makes aiming the fireballs at enemies a total nightmare
glad someone else said this. i found myself missing all the time when i wouldn’t in other games
@@deanmoriarty6015 yeah, the only way to aim correctly is to first start walking/running and then fireball. Aiming while standing still is otherwise 8 directional.
Also there's a small boost to help players reach platforms in case they miss their jump (if you jump to a platform but e.g Mario's feet bump against the wall before reaching the platform, in other games you'd fall down but here mario is magically teleported onto the platform)
@Followup Account Yes, you just have to stand in the right spot.
And the fixed movement was made for more precise platforming.
@@davinchristino standing in the right spot has nothing to do with aiming at the right direction. If an ennemy comes at me from 22° angle, i can't shoot it unless I walk towards it (which is not always feasible when standing in a small platform)
Because mario (or any character) can only aim straight ahead (0°) of 45° to the left or right, no in-between
@@davinchristino tbh I had the hardest time platforming in 3d world but it was because of the depth perception
It's weird to think the Shrine sameness might have been a deliberate choice and not a time constraint problem. You never cease to surprise me.
*ceave to surprise
Even the first time I played botw I thought...shit they should have made the shines all similar but slightly different based on where in the world they were...
Ie say plants busting through the ground and walls in faring region. Lava rivers flowing through the ones near death mountain etcetera.
And don't get me started on Odyssey...I actually HATE odyssey. With a passion.
Not because it's so bad there's an awful, AWFUL lot that's good. But there's JUST enough bad to spoil all that's good. Like they did that shit on purpose with mathematical precision just to piss me off!
@@sammaloney1746 I didn't hate Odyssey, but I felt very empty upon completion. It wasn't satisfying, because I wasn't invested in the world they created.
Also, the base game should've been more difficult.
@@innertuber4049 Yeah I totally agree. It's technically a good game but just so lifeless.
The kingdoms are uninspired and moons are so valueless due to their amounts...
Not to mention humanoid characters in new donk city man. They've singlehandedly crushed the Mario universe consistency with them. Should have been monkeys ala DK universe or at least made cartoony like Paulina and Rosalina. And realistic dinosaurs when yoshi is supposed to be a dinosaur like crash bandicoots dino that he rides in 3. Not to mention they hardly utilised them at all. The fuck are you doing Nintendo!???
As I said it's like they do these things just to infuriate me. Because any other way but the way they did would have been better. But the way they did it is horrible and when you put just enough horrible things into a great game it ruins it.
I want my game to feel like an experience not a waste of my time!
My primary issue with the Shrines is that for challenges designed to push the player to get better they were pretty bad at their job. There should have been a combination of actual dungeons with the other challenges, and the baseline for the easy challenges following the Great Plateau is in my opinion far too low.
Yes, working in more natural things into the artificial area like the Trial of the Sword does would have helped immensely too for many reasons, but the fact is this is the only recent example I can give Nintendo a pass on due to the framing. In spite of that they failed to capitalize on the one time where artificial challenges designed to push the player hard into growing as a player would have made sense.
I dont understand Nintendo, as they can be so good with moment to moment gameplay, but have moved away not only from framing most of the gameplay better, but in the one case they could have leaned into the artificial nature from a story perspective much harder the absolutely ruin it by making the hardest part of many shrines finding them or getting to them.
{Too much a focus on gameplay! TOO MUCH GAMEPLAY! That's like saying games are too much fun. Do you really want more grinding, leveling, and button mashing with flashy aesthetics?} This was the first video I saw today, but after a couple of seconds I remembered what the date was. I cheerfully clicked on the video, only to be given a very very compelling case for why Nintendo is stripping things down too much.
Dang Ceave you make my head spin.
Yeah, even though I disagree with him in some areas since I really enjoy Odyssey and Bowser's Fury, I still see where he's coming from, and I think his criticisms could be used by Nintendo to make better games.
I loved the challenge rooms in Odyssey because they just felt freaking surreal. But if the whole game would be like this... It wouldn't be that great. For me it's just a setting itself.
I love how Ceave has evolved from making Mario Maker tips and tricks videos, to challenge videos, to incredible game design analysis videos.
Tbh I miss the first two in this list
Yeah, me too. All are great though.
he ran out of ideas.
@@JPX7NGD so he did the smart move and reinvented his channel because of that
It’s everything I hoped to get from Joseph Anderson channel before it turned into a promotion for his twitch streams.
I would also have liked to see some explanations on how and why Bowser became like that, on why he doesn't even care about attacking his own child or on what was this black goop and what caused it to appear. Like Bowser didn't see Mario, he didn't have any objective and he didn't even kidnap the princess, he just became mad while picnicking with his son which, when you think about it, is the worst moment to become mad. That is what led me to realize how gameplay is prioritized over anything else: the fact they didn't even bother to give us the simplest explanations. I honestly was wondering what was I even playing when I first got in the game, I felt lost because of the so ridiculously bare-bone "story" they were giving us.
As you said, Bowser Fury is just "we throw you in a gigantic gameplay focus area, now have fun" without any depth whatsoever added on top, but even though the lack of scenery is part of the reason why that is, I definitely think that the lack of a story (not a deep one, I know this is a Mario game, something like 3D World's is enough) also is a big deal in that equation.
Finally, someone else talks about it! They put all this hype on this mysterious location (like the shadow clone of Luigi), and then answer absolutely nothing except that Bowser got this way because Bowser Jr. painted him for some reason (which is pretty much just Color Splash again, not even that he just finally got consumed in his hatred for Mario or anything.) Mario games aren't known for the plot or even making sense, but it just didn't answer almost any of the questions that the game raised, when most Mario games don't get enough credit that what happens in the games is surprising usually (suspensfully) cohesive/explained, just extremely bizarre.
It feels like the Gameplay vs. Story thing that happened in the Rosalina backstory situation has finally come to a head or shown a glimpse of it.
Btw, the answer is shown in the credits to be that Bowser got covered in some of Jr's magic paint. Him painting over the portrait to show Fury Bowser when he's explaining the situation at the beginning was literal. ...I would say that's ridiculous, but he did make entire buildings disappear with that stuff back in Sunshine (which the goop being cleared is also how the map is revealed in this game), plus created monsters and transformed himself into a Mario clone, go I guess it all tracks.
@@Shalakor Thanks for telling me! I effectively re-watched the credits (I didn't really pay attention the first time) and it does seem that it's the exact same explaination as in Color Splash where the black paint has gained control over Bowser's mind.
But first, we still don't know why he is giant or why such a small amount of paint covered such a giant area and second (and most importantly) it's not supposed to be the role of the credits to give us those kinds of explainations. You shouldn't learn the reason of your objective at the end of the game. It would have been better to start with a cutscene depicting the event :/
(By the way, in Color Splash, after we got rid of the black paint, Bowser stopped to be mad. That is not the case at all in Bowser's Fury)
@@Jann75 I answer the second comment without reading yours before, funny how we both thought of Color Splash! Not that it's something difficult to think about, the two games' "plots" are very similar, but still!
And yes exactly as you said, in Mario games even if the story aren't very deep or elaborated, we usually know why we're doing things because things make sense, that's not the case at all here.
@@kitomichi I didn't say it made it better, just that it was what it was. It is a pretty unfortunate way to structure the story, even if you do want to use it as a punchline.
And, at the end of the day, becoming giant is just something Bowser can do with any number of different stimuli. Even without an external power-up sometimes. Yay.
The start perfectly sums up why I think 3D World is one of the most underrated mario games. Probably because it was 1. Released on the Wii U ( honestly an underrated console in itself ) and 2. Because people say it's too linear but that doesn't stop THEM from loving Mario Bros 3, another linear game just with different stages, power ups and one less dimension. But I think 3D World is better top 10 I'd say ( Mario World is better than Bros 3 change my mind ). 9/10 easy. *In my opinion*
That box garden thing is a great way to describe the vibe I've always gotten from my favourite 2D Zelda games, like LttP and Minish Cap. Even though their worlds are pretty small, every screen somehow feels gigantic and mysterious because of how thick the atmosphere is. Exploring the caves of Death Mountain or looking down from the the cloud-top area in Minish Cap always made me feel like I was legitimately at the edge of the world, pushing the boundaries of the game map into unknown territory (even though not much was really there). Same goes for certain dungeons in Twilight Princess- getting stuck for an hour on spatial awareness puzzles somehow came off as overcoming daunting and ancient trials rather than being too stupid to remember which way the water staircase was pointing, etc.
Ironically I rarely got that feeling from BotW, the game Nintendo designed entirely around the concept of exploration. You could chalk it up to me just being older, but I have gotten that childhood Zelda feeling from one modern game- namely Hollow Knight- so there must be something more to it. Anyway, this was a very insightful video.
I love that little part at the beginning because I’ve always wanted to hear someone talk about how great 3D world is
Everyone always talks about how great 3D World is. It's very highly rated.
almost every review of the game says that
just watch switchstop
IMHO. 3d world was too easy, because it accomplished it's goal way too well. How do I mean that?
3d world was aiming to give that classic side-scrolling mario gameplay from classics such as super mario bros 3 and super mario world a 3d-representation and they did that brilliantly! But while in super mario bros 3 you could only jump over bosses... In 3d-world they took that classic mario bros 3 boss battle and made a box-perfect 3d replica, in which you can also run around the because of the 3rd dimension. This makes it a million times easier to avoid the boss, making it waaay easier than mario bros 3 ever was.
So I think 3d-worlds biggest strength (classic look and feel perfectly translated into 3d) is also it's biggest weakness.
@@NiekNooijens cool, but that’s not what I was talking about..
Who's that guy in the thumbnail? He looks like some red luigi.
Idk Ceave might have chosen the wrong luigi
I feel like its the red dimension Luigi
Lol what if Luigi had, like, a brother that dressed in red
Must be part of the April Fools joke??
@@Pilachio it's very likely
I don't know whether to be proud or embarrassed that I recognized two of the four gameplay maps before you even revealed what game they were from.
I found only Sweet sweet
i am seriously impressed with how great you’ve gotten at video making so quickly. i was watching you a year ago, and then you videoed were just another video to me, but now your videos are a full event! thanks for the content!
Thank you for making this video in honor of the recently deceased plumber Mario.
I see you're a man of culture as well
RIP Mario "Maker" Mario, 1983-2021
When did he die?
@@superhappygamer1162 he truly came back
@@chrispo7610 Huh??
I had a similar idea like this, but this video put this issue to words! Although I also enjoyed these games, there was something “plastic” and “dull” but I couldn’t put my finger in it. I really hope Nintendo can learn from this issue and give a sense of identity and nostalgia to what are already engaging games.
I really gotta say this, but I'm so glad you took this direction with the channel. I loved watching your Mario Maker videos, but this last string of videos has honestly drawn me in more so than ever. I've never seen a channel approach the topics like you do, and your method of building up to your main point is done so well I lose myself in the flow of the video. I have and will recommend you to others!
26:30 fuzzies lost smash invitation, fuzzies lost smm2 invitation, fuzzies lost mario party invitation
I just wanted to say I appreciate the sections are green star 1, green star 2, green star 3, collectable stamp, and top of the flagpole.
Now you have to hit the top of flagpole with the other 4 characters though
25:22 Damn, Ceave going for the edgy jokes 😳😳
Is this supposed to be a backhanded slap at Biden?
@@isaacs9622 Trump
@@isaacs9622 It's actually a backhanded reference to a highly offensive thing that Trump once said about essentially forcing himself on women
paul, you speak with such certainty for someone who clearly doesn’t know a thing about the topic. Trump was talking about it gold diggers demanding you do it the second they find out you are in the entertainment industry.
Something tells me you even support that once I give the proper context.
Unknowingly about biden yes, because the kittens are very young.
I'm not sure if Bowser's Fury is a great example to use given it was probably a lower budget project given its purpose as a sorta bonus scenario for a Wii U port.
Really good video. I'll try to give my perspective as a developer:
In our work we often try to reuse as much as we can, because it improves maintanability and speeds up the creation of products and software. Of course this makes sense for delivering office automation software where people needs to make the less mistakes possible, so you usually enhance a programe with a consitent theme. For example you can have a lot of forms in your app, but composed from a limited set of reusable form fields which are configured to have a different purpose and at the same time keeping a consistent experience (e.g Username, email, password) like showing you green borders when is valid and red borders when is not (sorry to tell something that maybe was a given for most of you).
But we need to consider if we want to do this for videogames, like a videogame usually wants from a player to make mistakes, so this one has to build the necesary heuristics to overcome the challenges, and not to be an easy walk-in experience. I think rogue-like games make a very clever use of reusable components, but they explicitly deliver a product that will become repetitive over time, just that each run will feel relatively different (not forever, we know), but in the case of Nintendo, it's clear they're abusing of reusable components or frameworks, but not in a clever way. I'd gladly see a non-themed Mario platform challenge, but that's randomly generated and each time you try it, is not exactly the same challende. Let's even imagine if in top of that they add a dynamic theming, like this random generated level is changing from one theme to another like a very chimeric dream, that would be awesome, and Nintendo has the resources to do that.
I feel Nintendo bussiness strategy conflicts with its products, it's like they want to position themselves as a "exclusive gaming experience" but at the same time gathering "software factory" techniques to artifically stretch the amount of time a person invest in their games.
You've really clarified to me tons of problems I've had with Nintendo games but never really understood why they were problems at all.
Watching playthroughs of Bowser's Fury, I didn't get why every single cat was a calico. They're already going so far as to literally repeat the same task multiple times. Now presumably they're using the rule of 3 to elevate the challenge each time, with more cats in more complicated locations (usually the function that makes 3D Land levels so good in the first place) but they can't even reskin the goddamn cats! Make one family calicos, the next one tomcats, and the last one could be more colourful and wild to look like they belong in a Mario game. But no, just the exact same calico skin every time.
Breath of the Wild is one of my favourite games of all time. The first time I played it, I didn't really notice anything wrong with the shrines or divine beasts because I was so busy having fun with the unique puzzles (or getting frustrated with the gyroscope ones). I started to get tired of the tests of strength, but they were paced out enough I didn't take much notice. Second time playing through on my switch, the shrines weren't really fun anymore. It was either plain old boring, or actively frustrating that I can't seem to do this puzzle I KNOW I've done before. The third time I played the game (now in Master Mode) I found the most pleasure in actively avoiding fast travel and discovering every little piece of beauty. Visiting a glowing Satori Mountain for the first time, discovering little hole in the wall locations, just beautiful experiences like that. The shrines and divine beasts were absolutely nauseating, though. I couldn't get through them fast enough, considered learning the wind bomb technique just to skip the puzzles at hand, used any skips I'd learned from watching speedruns of the game. And now I understand - they're goddamn boring once you lose the novelty of a new puzzle.
I wanna be a Nintendo Fanboy so bad, they have so much potential and I've loved their games for ages, but they seem to just keep getting worse.
I think the conclusion of the video could have benefitted greatly from explicitly pointing out that both SMO and BotW have a *mixture* of environment *and* pure gameplay. Yes, SMO does have a lot of moon obtained from "artificial" means, but also plenty from unique ways, like saving a bowl of soup from a big mean bird, or by gathering musicians and repairing the power grid in order to prepare to celebrate with a giant throwback festival. Yes, BotW does have shrines, but they also have quests for plenty of other things, like you need to find a place in the giant open world where a picture was taken a hundred years ago to regain your memories of the past, or you need to find people to help out a new growing settlement with their names also required to end in "-son", or you need to help all the people in a town to show you care about them and gain the trust of their leader. In my opinion, that would have been the perfect segway into a "but..." where he explains that Bowser's Fury goes too far into pure gameplay elements with no contrast. I think it kind of diminishes the point where you directly compare BotW and SMO with Bowser's Fury, when you could instead use the first two as the "just right" mixture of pure gameplay and environment and meaningful objectives, and then Bowser's Fury being the example of going too far to one extreme.
had to scroll too far down to find a comment actually talking about the video rather than "april fool's haha"
his belief tho is SMO and BOTW have "gamey" elements, and it's getting worse with bowser's fury, but he forgets to mention mario sunshine's platformer levels lol
@@chrisnguyen2316 That true tho, but at least there were sometimes story and atmosphere leading up to them. I was thinking more about the "catch Shadow Mario" Shines, but you got a point.
It's a shame I had to scroll so far to find this comment. Having the ability to include sections that are stripped down to just pure gameplay is a GOOD thing, and SMO strikes an excellent balance. BotW on the other hand takes it a bit too far IMO. Having a core part of the gameplay loop essentially devoid of theme doesn't work the same way that occasionally offering small sections of theme-less gameplay does.
I think there's a good argument in this video that gets bogged down by severe cherry picking.
Ceave does mention SMO and BotW having both environment and pure gameplay and doing it well when it happens earlier in the video, but I agree that at least mentioning it again near the end would've really tied things together even tighter than it already was.
Brilliant video. Feels like an April Fools, but it isn’t. Every single transition had me guessing as to where you were taking things. The way you explained and resolved each point was absolutely phenomenal; more people should strive to do what you just did. This is the perfect video essay.
I felt this same problem when playing through Paper Mario and the Origami King. Everything was focused on gameplay to the detriment of everything else.
But it was still fun
25:22 Uh Ceave..? You- you forgot to add the cat part of the word... no??? Okay...
So that is how you make not-so-family-friendly videos and go under the radar.
@@dominikmurz What about the digital crack line at 0:19?
@@Dinoman972 darn, totally missed that
"intricicately" "intricicacies" "fuzzyful" "in my humble opipinum" "relephant"
What the wiggler am I waffling about?
I might just incorporate some of these words/phrases into my vocabulary
that fact that i had to do a double take to realize it wasn’t just a straight screenshot at 21:21 really nailed home the point for me
I have a question about this. I definitely agree with you on this and have noticed it in my playing of Odyssey and Breath of the Wild, but what would you say about the fact that these two recent games are commonly considered some of the best, if not the best, games on the Switch? Would you say that they managed to achieve this despite their lack of “coating” because other parts are so good, or that since they didn’t have to coat anything they could work more on other aspects of the game, or that it doesn’t really have an impact now but will down the road when Nintendo fans are burnt out from “uncoated” games? I doubt you’ll see this, but if you do or if someone else has their thoughts I would love to hear them.
Yes and yes, I'd say.
I always thought that gameplay was the most important thing which I still do think, but context and/or art is also very important. I probably wouldn’t enjoy games nearly as much if everything were just colored blocks
Yeah thats true. Thats why I still cant enjoy games like Wind Waker. The game is good realy bit the Artstyle is so.. uuugh
Game play + story -> environment = game. Game plat and story are just about equal in importance and combine to inspire environment and art and all three make a game. Even if you don't tell the story directly it is still important. It is what separates a cart racer from Nascar or death race.
@@Acacius1992 ...I'd say the exact opposite about Wind Waker.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Well i respect your opinion. :)
And dont get me wrong i dont always hate cel shading art style. It is just the way wind waker does it hits me the wrong way
I'm pretty much the inverse. The gameplay should merely be there to supplement the story. If the story or characters aren't meaningful. Why bother? I will just forget about the game in a week and have wasted all that time.
It is a "gross" example but games solely focused around gameplay is equivilant to JO. It feels good but you forget about it soon after. But one is free and takes a lot less time.
the april fools joke is at 11:17, where ceave accidentally says "opinion"
I completely agree with the BOTW shrines, they not only all looked almost identical, that the reward was always the exact same piece of heart/stamina. Sure you got clothes sometimes, but it's not like you get items that draw a visual or thematic connection to the shrine puzzle.
I was super intrigued what this video was going to talk about based off the title and into but by the end of the video, I was genuinely 100% onboard with the points you made in the video. I agree that there is definitely an art in itself to making 'objective coating' in video games.
Worst of all, to add one, small final point to this video, what makes it so apparent and important in Nintendo games, is because Nintendo have produced some of the most well realised and immersive experiences of all time WITH their tight focus on gameplay on top. So yeah, removing that flavour really does become apparent since it's kinda become ingrained as something we love about their games!
Great video analysis; new subscriber from me!
This makes a lot of sense. You can tell Nintendo stopped focusing on the “garden design” just by analyzing the atmosphere of their new games. In Mario odyssey, each level is just floating in the sky. It weirds me out so much when I’m on the edge of New Donk City and just see an endless void of nothing below me. Why can’t there be buildings blocking my way instead? Then it would feel more like a real city. Instead it’s just floating island level number 500. Just compare Princess peaches castle stage to the original one from sm64. Mario 64 has clear tall walls that make you believe you are in a real location. Odyssey is yet again a floating island, and if you look out, all you see is an endless field of nothing. Mario galaxy has floating islands, but in that game you are literally in space flying to each planet so it makes thematic sense. In the new Mario games it just feels like you are in another level rather than another world.
Same goes for breath of the wild. In previous games, the dungeons were so atmospheric. Each one had its own aesthetic and music. Think about the water temple in skyward sword with the heaven and hell theme, or the forest temple in ocarina of time being really spooky with its creepy music and enemies. In botw, it’s just generic sheika designs everywhere. Barely different music, no varying enemies, no actual atmosphere. For Christ sake even the bosses are all the same looking. The only thing that comes close to atmospheric is Hyrule castle, which has cool environments and music. But that’s not even a real “dungeon.”
In conclusion, Nintendo has stopped making atmosphere a priority. They decide to prioritize gameplay but sacrifice soul like you said. I really doubt they will ever go back, because what they make now sells, and what sells gets made more.
The reason they're floating islands is because realism has never been a part of Mario games (SM64 levels like Whomps Fortress, Lethal Lava Land, and Tall Tall Mountain were also just floating islands). SMO's kingdoms are filled with flavor and personality. It gives each (major) kingdom its own mini story and unique population. Hell, the entirety of Lost kingdom is reframed as fixing your ship after getting shot down.
These games SHOULD have more atmosphere (Galaxy remains my favorite Mario title) but Nintendo is still getting overworlds right.
@@neutraldalek4222 @Neutral Dalek yeah I really like lost kingdom and places like bubblaine because of that and the fact that they have borders to their levels that are realistic. Extreme realism has no place in a Mario game, but just the smallest amount greatly improves on atmosphere. A good example is luigi's mansion: since it was basically a tech demo showing off the graphical capabilities of the gamecube, everything in the game was more realistic looking. The whole mansion looked like it could be built in real life, and all of the furniture and paintings were just realistic enough to make the game feel unnervingly weird. Like you said, realism is not usually apart of Mario games, so when luigi's mansion had so much realism, it stuck out and is in my opinion the most atmospheric Mario game (and also my favorite.)
Also you're right about the cool inhabitants in each Mario odyssey level. I forgot about them, they definitely add to the atmosphere in a good way.
i mean there's always the other islands flying out there in odyssey (never played botw so i cant speak on that) which to me personally makes me feel like there is still more out there but you just cant access it, it doesnt make it feel any less real to me tbh than there just being some random wall like you described in SM64
@@mreevee7785 Yeah that’s how I feel when I see the other planets in the background in Mario galaxy. I just find it weird that there are so many floating islands, even though on the world map you can see the whole planet is just plain land. I guess it’s a silly thing to think about anyway, it’s supah mario, there are floating coins and hills with eyes. Floating islands are just a Mario staple, some are better than others but they are a part of the series
@@hmmmstvethebaffled7720 that's true i didn't even think about the world map lmao
Last time I was this early, Ceave was still making the Mushroom Kingdom Championships in SMM :D
Thank you so much for this video. These things were my one gripe with oddysee and Breath of the wild. This and the overabundance of hurray-moments (ok, my two main gripes, nobody expects the spanish inquisition...). I think both problems work hand in hand. Abstract puzzles are easy to include and if you design them to be those short episodes you have enough room for tons of them. As for me, i find it really tough to celebrate finishing shrine #67 or finding moon #538. Each single task you perform becomes less important and thus less memorable.
Ceave, i dont know how you do it, but your videos just keep getting better and better and better, congrats :) i cant believe you manage to put something ive been thinking about for some time now into such a good video
Why is everyone uploading on April Fool's, and half of the time it's a legitimate video
Engagement. It's the one day people will click on just about everything to see if it's a gag or not.
Guess people are finally getting bored of April Fools
Because it's just a normal day like every other. get over it
I think i got it. It must be CZcamss april fools joke of delaing video releases for a few days so that they all release at april fools
@@ReikuYin tbh everytime i click on an april fools video and it isn't claimed as such in title already i just click away. The world burns enough already we don't need shitty trash joke videos.
I'm so sad Ceave didn't talk about Hollow Knight, because it's *incredibly* atmospheric: you don't platform on a specifically designed platforming challenge making use of conveyor belts, you jump across a crystal-lined ravine using conveyor belts erected by an ancient civilization that are being used to transport the crystals that are being mined from the area's walls by the area's enemies. Nothing in Hollow Knight feels out of place or video-gamey. (Except maybe the saws in the White Palace.)
None of the walls or floors are diagonal. This makes the game feel a lot more geometric and less like real places. I assume this was done so it'd be easy to design the map and there is more visual clarity with how you can interact with with in gameplay. I'm not saying hollow knight is bad or it did it's environments poorly, I'm just pointing out an example of a concession made from the visuals to the gameplay which makes the world feel more gamey.
@@toowiggly I played hollow knight for nearly 50 hours before i noticed the lack of diagonal or curved walls or ceilings or floors. The game hides it so well with its beautiful environments. If Nintendo made something like hollow knight, and it also didn't have any curves or diagonals, I think most people would recognize it after a few minutes.
@@toowiggly Yes, HK doesn't have any diagonal walls. Yes, it has unsupported floating platforms. But it _is_ a video game. The reason for floors and walls being square is, like you guessed, for designing the map. The map is composed of a bunch of squares, with artwork layered over. Keep in mind, the game was made by 2 people, whereas Nintendo is a AAA company.
Like the other commenter said, the artwork overlayed over the boxy map does such a good job of hiding the boxiness that it doesn't even matter. Look at Greenpath, or the Queen's Gardens: sure, the collisions are straight, but they don't feel straight, because of the organic curves in the artwork.
@@colecube8251 There actually are curves in Hollow Knight, I can think of one of the top of my head that I know for sure is an arch and not just a square with artwork overlayed in Greenpath. No diagonals that I can think of, however.
Not every video has to reference HK:) Plus, for this specific point, I feel like other games would have fit better as an example. Look at DKC Tropical Freeze.
Love ur vids. Keep em coming
Always love your editing, scripts (jokes especially!) Ceave! Never change!
Grab the kitty like a president. That made laugh
caught me off guard lmao
Was scrollin these comments just to see this 🤣
Oh, he did not say kitty 😏
Oh and there's another problem with this design philosophy, or maybe more just about Miyamoto, and to show you it, we need to talk about Koizumi.
Yoshiaki Koizumi wanted to do cinema, to do art, he ended up making Nintendo games, even as director, and so he did some of the best Nintendo games ever like probably his best piece of art, made without the intervention of Miyamoto: _The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask_ . And what a masterpiece it was, being excellent gameplay wise ANS thematicly wise, with great messages included even in the gameplay itself, the game is actually build around what it wants to say. It was fresh, so rare in Nintendo games to have a focus on the thematics along with the gameplay.
After that, Koizumi worked as the director of _Super Mario Galaxy_ but Miyamoto didn't really like his philosophy or putting things other than the gameplay first, even alongside the gameplay, to put story and morals in HIS franchises. Koizumi probably already tried to do this in _Super Mario Sunshine_ but Miyamoto stopped him. For Galaxy, he had to be smarter, themes would be hidden, in the music, in the universe, in the story book. Koizumi wrote Rosalina's story book in one night to not be influenced which Miyamoto found interesting. With Miyamoto not seeing what he did, Koizumi talked about family, its loss, its gain, through Rosalina, comparing it to the terrifing eternal silence of the infinite spaces, making one of the best Mario game ever.
BUT THEN, MIYAMOTO remarked it and basically destroyed Koizumi artistic carrer, he would never be a director again, just a simple producer with no artistic ambitions and for all HIS games, the gameplay would now be putted first AND ALONE. No one cares if Zelda M.M. is better than O.o.T. or if Galaxy 1 is better than Galaxy 2, the games are still good, Galaxy 2 is actually better in game design than Galaxy 1. But the games will never reach their full artistic potentiels. And that's another reason why putting the gameplay first before anything else is, in a way, bad.
Hopefully, there's still hope, last year, a Mario game with excellent story and a moral released with _Paper Mario: The Origami King_ .
Thank you for bringing this up! I think these artistic additions are so important to games to prevent them from feeling empty and generic.
I know a good Mario game doesn't need a good story, but I think it adds so much more and makes it so much better. The story wouldn't even need to be very serious, but make it at least something else instead of the boring old "Princess Peach got kidnapped by Bowser" story. Like remember when in 1992 with Super Mario Land 2 the story was that Mario's castle was taken over by an "evil" version of himself? Instead of the tired old kidnapping they introduced Wario for the very first time and shaked up the old formula, which was even reflected in the "open world" design. It was new and exciting!
Miyamoto knew about Rosalina's Storybook before it was added though. He and Koizumi also came to a decision together to cut back on the story in Galaxy 2, Miyamoto didn't strong arm him or anything.
@@captainmarsh3664, yeah. I don't fully know and understand what happend. But for Galaxy 2, Koizumi didn't directed.
@Followup Account, yes for Majora's Mask even though he put lots of pressure on Aonuma and Koizumi to make their game, and I never said that he did anything in that game, but for Galaxy, no, Miyamoto have the habit of controling the games of the franchises that he made.
Yknow, the title had me on edge at first, but I fully agree with you.
Every memory I have of playing BotW are of charecters that I loved, or my own overworld explorations. I don't remember a single shrine in any real detail, or any of the beasts's inner workings. I remember having a lot of fun, but, nothing just. Stands out. Nothing like riding the rollercoaster to fight mecha bowser in Sunshine, or riding into the Ghost Boat in Wind Waker.
I actually really like the mini-challenges in Odyssey. Sure, they seem artificial, but it seems in-place for a game such as Odyssey.
I think Odyssey is the last place where they belong, they make sense in 3D world but the entire point of Odyssey is that its world's feel alive
Your newer analysis'es are absolutely great and intriguing. Love the development.
I was going to sit half an hour watching this video ironically, but it isn't an April fool's video, so I'm going to sit half an hour watching this video unironically
Edit: I did it
(I also April fooled myself by sitting 31:39 minutes instead of half an hour)
Last year was so full of BS that April 1st is the one day no one is BS'ing each other.
hi
AAAAAAHHHHH!!!! PAAAAAIIIINNNN!!!!!!
I broke my hand yesterday because of the hate comments I get. I was so angry that I punched a hole in my computer.
When he started talking about the gardens I was convinced it was a joke.
@@AxxLAfriku good for you.
A majority of this issue comes from Miyamoto himself with keeping things as "pure" as possible. Not everyone at Nintendo thinks that way, but over time, they've been restricted more and more from putting their own spin on things. Why else would a harmless thing like Rosalina's backstory be so frowned upon that it had to be snuck into the game?
Someone else commented this but it does describe Miyamoto to a T: he's the type of guy who would make an extremely delicious batch of chocolate chips and will look at you in horror if you ever use those chocolate chips in any kind of recipe.
Yep. World building and narrative is usually as important for me as gameplay. It's the difference between going to a theme park with great rollercoasters but no theming and going to a theme park where every world you step into is rich and specific and immersive. I'd rather go to the latter, even if the coasters weren't as good.
*sees notification*: Oh, another April Fools video. Let's see
*opens video and sees 31:39 at the bottom*: - Oh wow, he really put a lot of effort for a April Fools video. That's odd.
*3 minutes in*: - Oh, this is actually a genuine video. Now that's the ultimate April Fools.
Ah yes. Being serious during April's fool, the ultimate prank
@@batatanna Indeed
I thought at some point, you were going to bring up that Miyamoto quote where he says: "It's fine without a story, do we really need one?"
I think that at least Mario games need some simple backbone stories.
@@gab_v250 I thought that's what he was getting at. Simply jumping across floating blocks or horizontal walls just to get from point A to B isn't as motivating or interesting as having some sort of narrative goal to complete.
Otherwise it might as well just be another bland mobile or flash game where you cross platforms without a proper means to an end.
I don't really get why Miyamoto is so against story elements in Mario games. I mean in the old times that was understandable since there was not enough storage. Is it because the games would take longer to develop?
@@AkameGaKillfan777 but after seeing and playing Mario RPGs now the standard "Mario beats Bowser and saves Peach" sounds a bit dated to me.
I would like to see a new game where the hero, the villain and the princess get together to defeat a greater evil.
It sounds like the plot of Super Mario RPG or the one of Super Paper Mario, but I would like a new game based on that.
Miyamoto is the true villain of Nintendo if they take that quote seriously.
Petition to have Ceave use Killer Bean Forever music in his videos unironically
So much of this video makes sense, like sure sometimes having the "video game-y" looking challenges is fine (look at Sunshine, they had hidden random voids of floating blocks) if done sparingly.. but them making the "video game concrete in void" so often makes it less of break from being thorough for a challenge ESPECIALLY the scarecrows in Odyssey just.. being scattered in the world..
The shrines in BOTW I think ya having some variance would be nice despite lore being like sheikah built trials for the hero which would make sense they would use same materials everywhere :P but... only reason any of the puzzles are memorable are.. not from their look but the gameplay alone
Bowser's Fury I only recently got good look at and it literally seems like they took the challenge rooms or scarecrow challenges of odyssey and the secret shines of Sunshine and were like "ya this would be a good thing as the MAIN world instead of the side thing" and put a barebones way of connecting the challenges, like if some of the cat shines had to be completed via a connectedness between 2 or more islands could of improved it a lot imo, like imagine if the lost cats were introduced as like "oh basic bring 1 cat to mom" and then later it's "now go between all the islands and bring a cat back from each" so you had to reexplore all of them in case you hadn't gone back in a bit.. and maybe have paths open up for more easy traversal between them all
What's funny is Galaxy literally has the "floating platforms in void with platforming" as it's main thing.. but the context of space makes it much more believable than "oh this.. lake.. has stuff"
Nintendo is dumb, I agree. Like for example Mari- *gets shot*
Mario gets shot, march 31st
Oh i remember he stole a castle from wario
@@gizmoduuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu2773 yeah, and people thought if you did something to the “M is real sign” you’d unlock him? He looked pretty cool, I wish he was in luigi 64
I honestly like the feel of the shrines but I can see what you mean. I personally just never got tired of the puzzles and it gave me a sense of excitement when I entered a familiar environment because I loved the shrines’ challenges and rewards
But would you go back and do them a second time?
@@theoldfinalchapters8319 As someone who's replayed the game three times...I would, personally
My main problem with the shrines is that they basically took dungeons apart and made them into one (ish) room challenges. What I love about Zelda dungeons are the puzzle box aspect. Mark from Game Makers Toolkit did a whole series on it. And then you get the 4 beasts and some of the challenges were difficult to puzzle out, but ultimately they were short and unsatisfying imo.
They could have taken 50% of the shrines and made dungeons out of them with interlocking parts and kept the overall structure and it would have been a much more complete game to me.
@@beatnik09 Same. Some of the shrines with more complicated puzzles were nice, like I loved that shrine where you have activate the correct ventilators to make those propeller things, it's been so long that I can't really describe it more than that, but I remember enjoying it a lot, but for most of the shrines, you could tell what the solution was before even starting. And that's fine if those little puzzles were just side attraction while naviguation was the actual challenge, but they're the main focus, so it's not great to replay.
The banjo kazooie example especially reminds me of a moment in my recent playthrough of octopath traveler. Almost every chapter is the same in terms of gameplay; segments for dialogue, dungeoning, and then the boss at the end. But obviously the actual story context of every chapter is completely different. At the end of someone's chapter 3 (dont wanna spoil whose) you confront the npc that the player knew was going to be the boss of this chapter since the chapter started, but right before the fight he *transforms* into a huge monster. There was still a boss fight of course so the expected gameplay was unchanged, but there had been plenty of other bosses that were regular human npcs so that simple subversion of what i expected made it one of the most memorable moments of my playthrough.
This video put into words what I had started to feel with BotW's shrines. They at least have the in-universe justification of being deliberate puzzles that characters built, rather than just boring terrain that happens to be puzzling. The sameness isn't quite as bad because they only occur as breaks from the much more real and vibrant overworld, but I would love to see even a small change that at least made the shrines in one region feel different from those in another region, like if the music had a new instrument added in (Drums for Eldin, harp for Lanayru, sitar for Gerudo Desert, etc.)
Damn! You really opened my eyes!!! I didn’t realize that the games were so simplified to oblivion!!!
Crash Bandicoot 4: Time For Smash Bros. Yep! That sounds about right
Other AAA games sort of hit the same problem from the opposite direction where everything is so needlessly detailed that you tend to look past everything for the gameplay elements. Then it doesn't matter that things are coded differently since you only see the gameplay objects at that point.
Breath of the Wild's repetitive korok seeds bothered me a lot more than the shrines. Copy paste characters with the same dialog and types of hiding places and puzzles are much less believable than environments that look the same. Honestly if we just had different forest, mountain, desert, snow, and air shrine designs that would have gone a long way.
Bowser's Fury would probably be less visually repetitive if it were truly it's own game. Each group of islands do look fairly distinct. Mount Magmeow didn't have to have a giant cat face etched in rock for gameplay purposes at all. The main thing that bothered me were the lighthouses talking to you. I'm pretty sure those should have been characters that lived in the lighthouses. Also Bowser Jr's cutscene should have been voice acted.
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RIP that random Piranha Plant that got squished when the platforms flipped.
My favourite moments in breath of the wild were always the unique events such as the top of Mount lanaryu (I won't spoil what's up there) and this has also made me realise this lack of unique context for moons in odyssey is what my main problem with the game is and has given me a greater appreciation to galaxy which was already my favourite Mario game. I just hope Nintendo learns to fix this, especially with breath of the wild 2 when one of the main complaints was how the dungeons aren't themed. Great video as always ceave.
100 percent agree. Breath of the Wild might be my favorite game of all time. But one thing that always baffled me- the npc writing is just terrible! Most characters have nothing interesting to say. I think this is a symptom of the gameyness you're talking about- their sole purpose is to lead the player to the next task.
I think sometimes a game needs these repetitive and familiar tasks, as long as it's balanced with original ones.
I like to separate Super Mario Odyssey's moons into two categories: Routine and Unique.
Routine is something that's a constant between all kingdoms- Boss Battles, Scarecrow Challenges, Hint Art, Secret Paths, Planting Seeds, Music Toads, Captain Toad, Princess Peach and Tiara, Taking Notes, etc.
Unique is something that's exclusive to its given kingdom, something so different from a routine moon that it's its own thing entirely, or at least something you don't see in every single kingdom that's different in its own right- Removing posters from a couple walls in Tostarena, Capturing a Cheep Cheep to show a Lochlady in Lake Lamode, Causing a Chain Chomp Reaction to open up doors in Fossil Falls, Or just sitting down on a bench and lending your ear to a fellow New Donker having a bad day in New Donk City.
Things like this are unique to their kingdoms, something you don't see every day. But routine moons are constant- Once you see the corresponding item to ignite a routine challenge in a kingdom, you know exactly what to do and how to do it. They, in turn, for the most part get progressively harder through each passing kingdom. Taking Notes gets longer and progressively shorter in time, Scarecrow Challenges introduce new obstacles and maneuvers that you have to figure out, Hint Art gets progressively more abstract, Secret Paths through paintings get harder to find and more confusing to navigate, Planting Seeds get more and more spread out, etc. etc. Providing an extra challenge to players who already know what to do, but still have to figure out how to do it, compared to unique moons, which are different every time, something you have to figure out for yourself because it's something you've never seen before- a balance provided to Odyssey that creates a mindset of either you know what you're up against or it's something you have to figure out.
And then there's the Nimbus Arena and Crumbleden which follow none of these rules and only amount to being there to fight bosses. There's no regional coins and the bare minimum amount of moons.
I always love your insight into these little things that make so much difference, great video!