What makes a plane good or bad?
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
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A good plane is one with the same amount of landings as takeoffs ! Sorry I couldn't resist !
Boeing hates you for this one :)
Any plane can land the same amount as taking off. What sets apart good and bad is which one can take off again after the last landing
I have oddly watched many, many videos about hand planes, and you're the first person I have seen to truly explain the purpose and function of a chip breaker in detail. Thank you.
My pleasure! It's a complicated topic and I didn't even cover it all.
The English Woodworker has a multipart series on the chip breaker
It prevents chipping because it provides pressure and tension to the plane iron, thereby reducing vibration and chatter. It’s called the cap iron. “Chip breaker” is a new term, and many people mistake “chip” with “shaving” and think it does something to the shavings. It lifts them up, but that has no effect on anything: consider how thin a shaving is - it can’t possibly affect chipping that way. Maybe it has an effect like that if you totally abuse your plane and set it way, way too deep, but that’s not the intended purpose.
I suppose people didn’t like the term cap iron because it’s easy to confuse it with the lever cap. Chip breakers do exist, but they’re a part in thickness planers. Maybe people assumed that the cap iron does the same thing in a hand plane and started calling it chip breaker for that reason - but it doesn’t, and it isn’t.
@@mm9773 - People didn't assume anything, they did controlled experiments to study it. They set up a camera and showed how plane irons cause tearout without the chip breaker vs the tearout when a chip breaker is installed and ground to different angles. The evidence was pretty clear, it had quite a big effect on tearout. Google "influence of the cap iron on hand plane" and watch the translated video on Vimeo.
So your hypothesis has been shown to be incorrect.
@@UserNameAnonymous You mean they left out an essential part of the plane and noticed a negative effect? What a surprise.
The more I learn about planes, the more I realize how deceptively sophisticated they are. Now off for another try at tuning my chip breaker.
"Deceptively sophisticated." Perfect.
Showing real examples for explanations and of how things work (or not) is a great teaching tool. So much easier to understand vs. print/speech only.
I've got to hand it to you - I've never imagined this subject being so deep. After 17 minutes my head is nearly exploding with details but it feels like we've only... erm... scratched the surface here :)
The best explanation I've seen, on chattering and tear-out. Thank you Rex 👏🏻
My pleasure!
I've been a machine woodworker for 40 years as it was a hobby while working full time. After retiring I've started trying to work more with hand tools just to keep learning new skills. I find that picking up hand tools skills has also made me better with some of my machines. Anyway, I've rehabbed my grandfather's Stanley 4 and a junk shop 5 1/2. This video is excellent for someone just trying to understand planes. For example, the discussion on the mouth of the planes really clarified some things for me. Good job all around: 140 attaboys are awarded.
Thanks very much!
Glad you mentioned and emphasized the importance of the chip breaker. It seems as though many people are taught or mistakenly believe that the low angle bevel up planes are the best out there for general work instead of as a specialty plane for end grain. There is a reason bevel-down double-iron planes have been the standard for general work (especially avoiding tear out) since the late 1700's.
I've used bevel-up planes and I like them...but although I own about 50 planes, not one of them is bevel up. I just don't find them necessary.
Explained in minute details of the tool,usually not found in other videos about hand planes ,immensely helpful
Good tools don't make you an expert but it does make it easer to become an expert.
Yeah you can drive around the track in a jalopy but you're not likely to take the checkered flag using the worst clunker going.
Great video - Thanks Rex. I got a second-hand 404 from eBay for £5 UK. I've tuned it up following your video and now, whilst recognising it's not excellent, I love using it - nice and light and, having tuned it up myself, it feels like it's 'mine'. Thanks again.
My pleasure! It's really not bad for the money.
Without a doubt, the best explanation of the technicalities of planes and plane work I have EVER seen, well done.
Thank you!
My first plane arrived yesterday. Nothing fancy but nothing ultra-cheap. It came with a shed-load of grease that I've cleaned up, and I've sharpened the blade a little. It cuts but not very consistently. But the wood I was using was baaaaaaaaaad.
All sides of the blade and chip breaker need a bit of deburring too. I got a small nick from the SIDE of the blade which is not what you want. A bit of love and tuning and I'll get it there :)
Hands down the best explanation of the mouth of a plane. Also. "it looks like they milled that thing with a broken soda can" made my day. That quote is getting added to my list of regularly used phrases at work.
Rex , on one of your plane videos you mentioned the lever cap hole as a keyhole.shape .I had a Spear and Jackson with a badly made cam. and a keyhole . So I had to alter the lever cap screw all the time.The detailed feature of the screw is very odd. .It fits vertically in the frog but holds down the cap which is slanted.So only two contact points keep it still .The Spear and Jackson has a new Kidney shaped hole which gives 3 stable contact points and a nice new cam that gets tighter when the lever goes down. The little smear of oil between sliding parts makes it work just right now . The Kidney shape hole is not a fad as one site has said .
I admit, I'm fond of planes with the kidney bean lever cap. Its a small improvement, but it's nice.
Rex, my "work" is mostly vintage and antique tool restoration and a bit of metal fab. But often good restorations require as much or more attention to the wood in the tool than the metal, and I come to your site to learn and grow those skills. All this is really medical rehab after cancer/transplant/etc..., but it keeps me going another day and gives my life some purpose. So thank you very much - you are an excellent educator!
What a nice thing to say! I wish you the best of luck with rehab!
I really do enjoy your style. 😄 First, being a cheapskate ain't a bad thing in my books! And then there's things like the "... a big mouth here... or here!" That kind of humor really is refreshing!
I'm very glad I found this channel!
Almost safe to say that vintage planes are the safest bet. Flea markets are indeed a great source. I found a number 7 jointer plane for 35 bucks and works great. if you think about it, once you figure in the worth, you can't beat, plus It is all in the fine tuning. Thanks for the info and videos.
Great explanation of how the double-iron, chipbreaker & mouth work together to make the cut & form the curl. Very impressive the way you form complex thoughts with simple words. You Sir are a good teacher.. I learned some concepts that I’ll use when tuning my vintage Ohio planes.
Those are some fine planes! Good luck!
Your planing videos are the best. So helpful and well done. Thank you so much.
Very detailed with hand planes and explainging the pros and cons of the metal and wooden ones. Ive watched several of them already and Ive got you on my notification list now. :)
I've known for years that a tool design that has evolved over hundreds of years by very smart craftsmen has features to provide the best possible performance, even if I didn't understand it. This is the video of yours that I have enjoyed the most, thank you.
I have both versions of the Stanley. I find the 12-404 is too crude to give consistent results, for the reasons you explain. So I've opened the mouth yet further and put a 7-inch radius camber on the iron. It makes a very good scrub plane now.
Great video, Rex!
AND I (for one) hope you revisit this sort of theme and topic in the future. It might sound "nit-picky" but I think it's worth the time (when you get to it) to demonstrate some of that "chatter" principle in motion. Getting even a cheap/decent microphone or audio-pickup near the work while you produce chatter-effect in the work isn't likely too difficult. AND then shooting the same (essentially) with a properly tuned plane to HEAR the difference... would illustrate SO readily to everyone what it is, and why it's bad.
BUT this is also just "consideration for the future" to be filed under "hopefully"...
It's worth pointing out that tool instruction resources (Like the Bureau of the Navy's "Tools and their uses" -1971) recommended setting the chip-breaker at 1/32" from the cutting edge of the blade.
Okay, that's the "stock" setting, kind of like the "basic" tuning of any instrument, so where you would normally set it up as you clean, sharpen, refurbish a tool for that "first time together" situation... before specializing or adjusting for a particular job... Maybe best described as "the zero-out" setting... just to keep most of us "hobbyists" in approximately the right neighborhood in case we find one or get our first from a garage sale and it's hopelessly out of whack. (lolz?)
AND I like my old wooden "coffin" and "box" planes too. Set them and forget them (at least between sharpening/refurb's)... BUT it's important to remember that they DO (in point of fact) need lubricating. A rage dampened in appropriate oil (I'm a fan of linseed, myself) should be wiped over the Sole of the plane at least once per job until "seasoned" (?) and there-after as seems necessary. I know by the terms "Don't need lubricating", you INTENDED to mean that we don't have any mechanical stuff to require oiling regular to keep it functioning well for the fine tuning (the bailey control, for example)... BUT it's easy for some of us "noob's" to get the wrong idea about it. (laugh at me, damn ya'!) ;o)
Very well done video - IMO, one of your best in terms of balancing information density with pacing. And as always, the clarity of your presentation style is top notch.
Appreciate that!
This made me understand a whole lot of things I knew to be true. Can’t give a bigger compliment tbh.
I'm very glad!
Best plain explanation on planes ever explained.
Great tutorial! You explain everything really well and it helps to have this knowledge. Thanks for sharing this.
You are a good teacher,. Explaining how different adjustments and manufacturing affect how plane responds better than anyone yet for me.I have been considering new plane irons for Stanleys, but the thicker irons more readily available and promoted seem like a disadvantage to me, as sharpening would seem more difficult..
Agreed. I think they will take much longer to hone.
Wow, great information! Now I understand why my bevel-up plane is designed with the thicker plane iron and how the bevel-up plane iron doesn’t miss out on the chip breaker tear-out control.
Really comprehensive and explained really well. It's easy to understand. Best video i've seen so far on the topic. Thank you!
Thank you!
Hi Rex. Folks in the UK could also consider Record planes as an alternative to Stanley. Also, on the premium side, we have Clifton who make excellent planes.
Paul Oaten Clifton’s always look so nice, I’m looking at some lie Nielsen’s now!
Agreed on both!
You know anything about" Woden" planes from England?
Mike McIlroy Woden are another brand I come across, they’re style is similar to most, don’t see as many wodens as you do Stanley’s and records
Paul Oaten My Jack plane is a Record, it’s the restoration I’m most proud of (grand total 3 thus far 😂). It needed repainting though as someone had splashed it with gloss, unfortunately the blue came out more Man City than Rovers.
I've really been enjoying your series on planes. I started tearing into my old plane to see what I could do with it. Turns out it's a Companion 187.37053 DD, which according to my research is a rebranded Stanley Handyman #1204. Companion is the budget line for Craftsman and Handyman is the budget line for Stanley (or one of them). It's considered a "not great" plane, but seems to check off most of your boxes here: big iron with good chip breaker, big frog with a decent amount of surface area, Bailey style adjustment knob. I didn't measure the mouth and don't have another to compare it to, but it looks ok to me. I got it all cleaned up yesterday and will be sharpening it today. Can't wait to see how it turns out. Thanks for sharing all this helpful information!
I think you have the right idea. A tool's "reputation" is pretty meaningless. You have to look at the quality and fit of the components. I have an old "Victor" plane which is another of Stanley's "budget" tools. You know what? It's pretty great. I use it a lot. You really have to make your own determinations with these random tools.
Enjoyed your video, thanks for explaining the differences between the two
As a fellow cheapskate, I was happy to find that Rider do a small plane over here for ~£30 with a fine depth adjustment wheel & an adjustable mouth too. It's only single-iron without a chip breaker, & there's a fair amount of slop in the depth wheel so it takes a few turns until it actually engages when reversing the direction, but after about a day spent honing & flattening & filing certain bits of it, I can safely say it was a great investment. I'd love to get a Veritas, but sometimes making a cheaper tool work well can be more rewarding in & of itself.
I've heard that Rider plane is pretty good.
Very good explanation and I really appreciate your sense of humour Rex!
If that German plane doesn't have a chipbreaker, it might be a 'Schlichthobel' which is the first plane you use after a scrubplane. It usually has a fairly big mouth, and its function is to (quickly) turn the wavy surface left behind by the scrubplane into a flat surface, albeit not very smooth. After that, there comes the 'Doppelhobel' which is the same thing, except with a chipbreaker and a finer mouth, before you finish the surface with the 'Putzhobel' (smoother) which is a bit smaller with a steeper bedding angle.
(Or maybe your plane IS a smoother, but the original blade got lost...)
Many people say that “chip breaker” is a misnomer, because it doesn’t necessarily break chips, at least not in all uses of the plane. But what the chip breaker does do is the second thing Rex mentioned- it holds down the iron more firmly, which reduces chatter.
I was thinking about your previous video about the cheap Stanley when I was in Horrible Fright yesterday, they have a two-plane combo pack for $12.99 (even cheaper with a 20% off coupon!). It has a horrible looking stamped steel block plane and a "No. 4 Jack Plane." The No. 4 has a thumb wheel, a lateral adjuster and a chip breaker. I was tempted to buy it just to see if I could tune it well enough to get those coveted fluffy shavings, but if I did then I'd probably be mad at myself for spending a lot more for my other no. 4. At any rate, I've enjoyed your videos, keep up the good work!
I keep hearing about the HF plane. I don't know if even I'm cheap enough to try that thing out.
It is better than the one in this video. Or choose It is also janky as hell, with really really severe defects.... but The frog is adjustable, has the features you mention, and it has some helpful mass. I think it was one of the first hand tools i ever bought and it became the volunteer for every new fettling technique i have learned. I had zero knowledge and I'm happy i bought it looking back. The other small plane it comes with is utterly useless though.
If i could do it over I'd buy a 35 dollar grizzly-- those are nice. I can't say I'd buy a vintage first because it makes little sense as a first plane with zero experience.
i bought a $25au jack plane, man did it need some work (I bought it knowing it would). the machining was ROUGH with what was probably 1/4mm grooves and a cupped and twisted soul. along with similar machining grooves on the blade. after sanding for an eon i have a flat blade and most of the cup removed from the sole.
I can plane with a half decent result . it does hate that wavy grain.
Thankyou for your informative videos . I am sure it would have taken me 10 times longer to get a usable plane without watching your videos .
Great explanation. It’s probably the clearest one I have ever heard.
Thanks very much!
Great content as always. I wish I had watched this before my wife bought me a Mastercraft 404, but I’ll go back and watch the other video, maybe I’ll remove the calibration screws there too. Got my antique wooden plane cleaned up, it’s good to know about moving the frog up and down.
you should do a comparison of the modern Stanley no.4 premium to the vintage
Wow, thank you so much for your thoughtful description and videos!
Hey friend, you called yours a vintage, but I actually see it at Home Depot for $785 pesos. Here in Mexico, size #4, 9 3/4", 248mm. I'm exited now. I know which may be a good choice for my first plain!
I would think the vintage Stanley is also heavier than the 404 and, that too, helps it cut through the wood w/o tear out. Great video and explanation!
That could be true. I'm not really sure how much weight matters.
Thanks Rex, really useful info. I was always told to place the plane on its side not on the foot when not in use.
It really doesn't matter. Also, leaving the plane on it's side exposes the cutter, which is a safely risk. Glad you like the video!
@@RexKrueger Good to know, sometimes the old truisms aren't true!! - Thanks for answering Rex.
If you think about it when you're using a plane you're pushing it into wood. So resting it on its side on a wooden bench isn't going to save it from much.
Rex, thanks for al of your video's.
I had some work on a hard wood door frame, and with your tips'I got the job done without even sharpening the old Stanly 4 I found in our house when we bought it..
Now on to sharpening it...
Awesome video man. This is the most informative video on the basics of a plane ive ever watched.
I like the plate face that shows up after the title screen
The ones I am seeing a lot of around here in North Houston are the older vintage True Value brand planes. They seem to be sort of a Stanley knock off. Honestly, they seem almost as if they took the Stanley plane and embossed True Value on it. The only real issue I am finding is that there only seems to be one style in abundance. I love mine. While watching your videos when you talk about Stanley, it is very easy for me to understand my plane and what you are teaching because the layout and parts are so similar.
It's totally possible that those were made by Stanley. They did that sometimes. Maybe someone else will stop by and let us know.
I actually bought my 404 and my no 3 at the same time from a pawn shop , paid $5 for the 3 and 12 for the 404 . I had never seen a 404 and though maybe it was rare or something . But a quick Google search in the car left me feeling foolish. But I did score a 100 plus yo no 3 for 5 bucks so not that foolish lol. Point is I actually reach for the 404 ( I want to say mine was called a 12 B but it is identical to yours ) a lot when doing carpentry . It much lighter than any of my Bailey pattern smoothers which make it great for doing vertical work or planeing in less than ideal positions and leave an acceptable surface. I almost straight up threw it away , glad I didn't.
Bench dog seems to make the No 4 that splits the difference between the cheap ones and the expensive ones, with all the features you'd want. That might be worth reviewing / comparing if the $150 price tag doesn't put it too far outside of your cheap-tools-for-humans criteria.
The main problem with the "cheap plane" pictured is the sole isn't actually flat. Have to do a lot of work to flatten it. Not something I would ever do again. lol Works very well once it's flat.
I agree with you on all facts and found this to be an excellent explanation on how a plane works. I would like to add that I find Stanley Handyman planes of the 1950 vintage to be superior to the cheap modern planes and you can usually pay only $5 at an estate sale. Thanks
I too would take a Handyman over the very mediocre 404.
More Great Info! I do think that the expert can get poor tools to work, but newbies, have enough to learn without fixing cheap tools. Get a good plane, use a cheap hammer.
A Warrington pattern hammer is still on my to get list. Which is something to say considering how many hammers I already have.
Thanks for all the information
I always enjoy your no bs approach. You use facts and actual experience to back up you opinion. One question....I have a block plane, spoke shaves and card scrapers. I'm thinking about adding 2 planes to my tool inventory. I have a couple hundred to spend on each. Which two planes types would you recommend? I'm thinking a long low angle jack plane and a #4 or #5 smoothing plane. I use a jointer and planer to flatten and square must pieces. But I love the look of planed surfaces more and more. Love the videos, thanks.
Great question! I think the most important plane to own if you have machines is a good smoother. I prefer the Stanley Bailey style No.4 like I showed here. It's just the thing to take out milling marks and leave a good surface. Low-angle jacks are surely good planes, but you should ask yourself what you'll use it for if you're using machines to surface and level. Several companies also make a low-angle smoother. You might also want one of those for smoothing end grain or certain difficult woods. I couple of hundred dollars will buy you one or two nice smoothers, no problem.
@@RexKrueger Thanks Rex. Great advice. I'm going with the #4 Bailey and looking at the low angle smoothers. Keep up the good work with your channel.
Great clarity and good humour. Thank you.
I'm really a plane rookie here Rex but I hear Paul Sellers saying things about the direction of the grain. Planing with and against the grain. Could some of the tear out problem you were showing be because of that? Keep up the good videos. I love watching you figure things out.
Good question! The wood I showed has "reversing grain" which means that the grain changes direction over the board. So, there's no way to avoid going against the grain some of the time. This is the reality of woodwork. Some wood is very difficult or even impossible to plane.
Wooden planes are pretty much a one plane per depth adjustment. Bulky but if all are on a shelf above the bench its superquick to grab the rigth one, plus you have backups if you damage the iron. If you had cared about sharpen them all😀
Thanks for the video.
Great review. Have not looked around your channel yet.
Request for video: If you don't have one, request you make a video on sharpening stones available for purchase.
14:15 Dude, you must have a really small truck. 🤭 Nice info, *thanks* . 👍
Thanks for your informative and encouraging videos. I for one would gladly pay for profile sketches of recommended irons that would be useful for the Stanley 4 and 5 planes, that is if you have the time to draw or trace these profiles.
Thanks again.
An absolutely fascinating video, I learnt a lot there thank you. Can I ask why newer, even early post war Stanley’s aren’t considered as good as pre war please? I know new ones have plastic totes and knobs but what makes them inferior for planing? I know the 'Handyman' range is made out of cheap metal and they aren’t as rigid, but why are the Baileys inferior?
Thank you for such a well constructed video that explained everything in the same place, I haven’t seen any do that before. It was also explained in such a clear way seven I understood it.
Those plastic handles are a better shape and more comfortable than the wooden ones. They compare well with my Qiangsheng.
You're very welcome! I can't comment on very recent Stanley planes, but the ones produced immediately after the war and even into the 1960s are just fine. It's after that the quality took a dive. I agree with Jim when he says plastic handles are fine. They feel plenty smooth in the hand.
Thank you both.
Woodcraft offers Wood River planes (designed and quality controlled by Rob Cosman) that rival Lee Neihlsen in performance @ approximately 1/2 the cost. I have been extremely happy with their performance right out of the box.
I'd like to point out that not all Bailey pattern planes are the same, either. I started out with a $20 Craftsman number 4 clone, and did a lot of work with it and learned how planes work, but when I got my hands on even a Stanley handyman from the 60s which is much later production and even after a couple rounds of cost-cutting, I found it significantly better than the Craftsman. There are things that even intermediate Woodworkers aren't going to think to look for, like tolerances on the Machining, or the style of knurling on the adjustment knob oh, that make a difference.
By the way I just found your channel yesterday and I am an immediate sub. Between your delivery and the way that you gather all the important points into one video, I think you are a definite go to and I will be recommending you a lot.
You're totally right. It's nice to know that those most basic models are out there, too. A very basic No 5 makes a great jack or rough plane.
can you add a chipbreaker and "iron assembly" to a cheap plane? i know you're missing the frog but is it modifiable?
Rex, I shared this on my facebook page and tagged a friend who sent me an older Stanley... well, most of it. I need to find an iron and chip breaker!
It's the chipbreaker that's the hard part. Irons are everywhere. Check ebay.
I thought to my self "how expensive could a premium plane be, it's an investment". Then I search up a Norwegian online store who sell Lie Nielson plane.. A No. 4 1/2 in bronze at 7500,-kr (NOK) around 750$. That is a major investment for a beginner hobby woodworker like me.
Omg, that was a fantastic explanation, congratulations, and thanks, because that was excatly the answer I was looking for since I didn't find it in my native language.
Greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷
Sounds like the 404 would make a good scrub plane.
Could be, but 404 makes even better error page.
I think a scrub plane is one of the best uses for it.
Seem like just about any old plane can be made into scrub plane. My brother came to visit me and he brought a old plane he bought at a second hand store somewhere in Washington State, this thing is apiece of junk, frog is stamped metal , lever cap stamped also, and no brand name anywhere (except made in USA) , nine and one half inches long with narrow narrow 1 3/4 blade. So it sat on shelf for months and I just looked at it , one day I thought why not, ground a curved blade, and dam that thing will flat out take off wood. So it seems like the crappy plane might still have purpose.
I think the 404 makes a good doorstop or bookend. Stanley had made some real stinkers over the years.
See,this is the knowledge that needs to be shown and is sadly being forgotten...it just doesn't matter what plane you use or how shiny it is its all about the setup.
Youll just never get a decent surface without applying these things and I think its this lack of knowledge that spirs most people to reach for the sander haha...
no mentioned of frog adjusters though?you can close the throat of most decent bench planes to get the tightest possible opening hence minimising tearout even further...raising bed/iron angles is another means of reducing tearout.
very good explanations of what is actually important though.
I can certainly mention the movable frog, but I never use it personally. I generally find the mouth of a good Stanley plenty tight, but thanks for adding to the discussion!
Ha Ha "give up on the plane and use a power sander" So I'm not the only one!!
I don't mind the adjusting mechanism for the SB4. I have one that I use as a scrub plane.
Well done Rex. Nothing could be clearer. Do not understand Stanley making that 440. The blade ...the adjustments ... the support??? Did they really save money? No worries on getting any of mine. Thanks. I have 8 Stanley and Miller Falls planes in various stages of restoration. My dream is the Wood River 4 and 1/2. but .. I'm stingy too.
I think they made it because there's a market for very cheap tools. I think they've sold a lot of them.
Ships need ballast.
I found the Stanley 12-904 plane on Amazon for $37.08 It is now $72. It was listed as Stanley 12-904 9-3/4-Inch Contractor Grade Smooth Bottom Bench Plane. The frog didn't seem very well made and not square to the sole. Also the mouth was quite wide and I get chips behind the blade. After using it for a while the tote broke but some epoxy was able to fix it. I also see that there is a Stanley 1-12-204 on Amazon listed as Stanley 1-12-204 Smooth Plane Handyman No. 4, Multicolor. for $78. It looks a lot like the 12-904 but I noticed that the blade adjust looks like smooth plastic, But the picture is not very good.
Funny thing is, here in Latvia Stanley is the best hand plane of all available. For a double price compared to mentiomed by you.
I have some perfectly sized wood and was thinking about making a plane, but instead of sacrificing a kitchen knife for the iron, I'm planning to put coarse sandpaper on it. Good idea?
I'm confused. Putting coarse sandpaper on what?
@@RexKrueger on the wood, as a "plane" that works using sandpaper
@@LassetUnsSpielen Oh, you could do that, but I think you'll get a lot more mileage out of a plane. Planes just do more.
@@RexKrueger okay, thanks. I'm just a little scared, because i have never used an angle grinder before :D wish me luck
Nothing you can do about the big mouth on the new Stanley? Weld, it shut then recut the slot slimmer. Worth it? Probably not. Would make for a fun video.
Yeah, but you can't weld cast-iron. Nothing is ever easy.
@@RexKrueger I can weld cast iron. I've done it plenty of times. It isn't pleasant, but to say it is impossible is just not true. If I was to close that mouth up I'd probably cut a larger hole into the plane sole then weld a larger metal piece with a machined mouth on the edge. Then I'd just have to clean up where it doesn't matter as much and have the machining I want where I want it. You're right that nothing worthwhile is ever easy though. Brazing may even be a better option overall? Something tells me that Stanley 404s are never going to be highly sought after collectibles. At least never in my lifetime. So butchering one up is a non-issue. Heck give me that plane I'll chuck it on my mill and take those nubbins out. Get a real frog to sit in there. What a total abortion!
@@1pcfred I stand corrected, then.
@@RexKrueger in a way you're right. Because when you weld on cast iron you no longer have cast iron in the weldment. It's not cast. But metallurigically there's even more to it than that. Stuff still sticks though.
I moved into an old farm house and they had left a couple of old craftsman planes. I didn't even know craftsman made planes. Then went to an antique dealer a little down the road and going more planes!.... All craftsman. Did craftsman try to dominate the market at some point?
I just realised that I knew nothing about planes ! Thank you Rex.
Adding a thicker blade will move the cutting edge forward, effectively narrowing the mouth.
That's a good point, but this blade has the hole in an odd place, so I don't know where I'm going to get a thicker iron.
@@RexKrueger you might be able to drill a hole in a plane blade with a cobalt or carbide drill bit. Or you could anneal a blade, drill it, then harden it again. Then there's EDM sinkers. But I'm not sure if the 404 warrants the effort or the sacrifice of a decent blade either for that matter.
@@RexKrueger Another option that might match your inclination is to fit a small infill. This would take some effort, but could fix the mouth and the bedding of the iron, removing chatter. It might require a longer lever cap screw.
I thought about that, but the knobs that support the blade would make that VERY difficult. I think that after that much work, you might as well buy a better plane.
@@RexKrueger it seems to me that we've a habit of often celebrating the impractical among us. Taking something that is arguably useless and making something of it is a laudable pursuit too. That 404 sickens me. What a waste of good cast iron. It still seems like there's something that could be done with it though. Static prop in a movie maybe? From a distance it almost looks like a wood plane to the uninitiated.
Brilliant video, you earned a sub 👍🏼
I subscribed some time ago and enjoy your approach to delivering interesting, informed content. As you held the German wooden plane up at the 13:17 point it appeared to me as though the blade was unsupported by the plane below and that the wedge was also not touching the blade. Perhaps fine tuning the areas contacting the blade would improve it's performance. Of course, this was almost a year ago so I figure you have already fine tuned it. Does it work better now?
In germany some wooden planes are mechanically adjustable like a steel plane but honestly it's really not that hard to adjust a classic wooden plane, most carpenters in germany still use wooden planes.
I'm glad to hear that. Wooden planes are simple and easy to use. I wish more people in the states used them.
As a project idea can I suggest fixing the 404? When I was first getting into hand tools I ran across a video of a guy who was talking about cheap planes and the big mouths on them. He decided to do a "hybrid" he added a wood piece to the bottom of the plane so he could better adjust the size of the mouth. If I recall he also came up with a "chip breaker". Its been a few years or I would reference the video. I would be interested in your take.
My last video was a full tune-up on the 404. I think it came out okay.
@@RexKrueger What I am suggesting isn't a tune up but an upgrade video. Kinda like your 3 tool vides turning into a 4 tool video. What you can do to make it better not just functional.
@@jhdeval I think I've done all I can with this plane. I thought a lot about adding a chip-breaker, but I don't see where it would go or how it would attach to an iron that doesn't have the correct hole. As to the sole, adding a wooden one to this plane seems a bit heroic.
Just found you. Very informative and love your presentation style. I'd ADD but can stay with you to the end. Thank you. Subscribed.
I found a set of a block plane and a copy of the Stanley 404 for 10 bucks so I bought it it hasn't come yet but it's supposed to come tomorrow
Serious question: at 12:12, you show that putting the chip breaker up closer to the edge gets you a better result. Why not always do this?
When taking heavier shavings it can cause 2 problems. 1 is it can clog the mouth up. 2 is that it can make it harder to push. Generally if you keep sharp you can keep your chip breaker really close 95% of the time. Even more if you have dedicated planes for rough work.
That's a VERY good question. If the chip breaker is set super-close, the plane will only take super-fine shavings. It works for tough grain but ruins your versatility. For general use, you need the chip-breaker set back a bit to allow a thicker shaving.
A good explanation!
Great video. I have never really known how far or close to set the chip breaker from the edge of the iron. I think you did a great job explaining how that really effect the cut that you get. A question for you about the double blade assembly, how tight should the screw be that hold the chip breaker to the iron? I have never really known how tight that should be. Thanks for another great, very informative, video.
You're very welcome. That screw should be pretty dang tight, but never so tight that you're in danger of stripping out the slot on the screw head. Hope that helps!
Ok that’s kind of what I thought because you obviously don’t want the chip breaker to be able to slide back while your working of course. Thanks a lot Rex, really appreciate it. Love your channel by the way.
Excellent video!
How do you get that tight fit against your blade with the chip breaker? I try to flatten that leading edge of the chip breaker but definitely still find myself having to stop and dig out shavings that get wedged between the two. Am I not getting a good fit or is the kind of unavoidable to an extent?
Try honing your chipbreaker with the edge on the stone and the chipbreaker angled DOWN so that you get a sharp knife edge on the breaker. If there's a burr, strop it off and polish the hump. That should help. There must be no light between your chipbreaker and your iron. If there is, you have a gap and you will get jams.
Rex Krueger thanks
If the back of your blade is dished too much then it provides a space for shavings to go under - like the way a dog digs under a fence.
Aubreykun ahhhh... I don’t think that’s it cuz I’m pretty adamant about getting the back flat. But good to know
Still will help to check with a feeler gauge to see if there is a gap. You may need to try multiple things:
Joint the cap iron edge on a smooth file. The file should be a flat reference surface, and if there's a burr or high spot it'll be apparent and get knocked down. A feeler gaughe will find this if you're sure the back of the iron is completely flat where the cap iron presses on it.
Cranking down the cap iron as tight as possible, don't be afraid to put as much torque and you can (by hand) on it, you just need a large enough flathead screwdriver. If it's not as tight as can be the steel may lift while planing and let fibers in. To get it to seat close to the edge of the iron or get it square, use a small mallet to tap it into place. This is especially important on thinner bent-steel cap irons.
Make sure the edge of the cap iron isn't at such an angle that it "leans on its heel" when you tighten the cap iron down. This might cause wood fibers to pack under it and push it open. Again, this is more of an issue on thinner bent-steel cap irons because the curve is more extreme and may cause the edge to kick up more than on a thicker one.
Hopefully that helps. If the plane you're having trouble with is the number 5 you restored on your channel it looks like the kind with a bent steel cap iron, so you may need to a just carefully check it over.
Really helpful video. Thanks!
Great explanation Rex, thanks for sharing it.
What about the Mexican-made Stanley Bailey pattern No. 4 that they still make? I’d be interested to see how that tests
I don't know about those. I should check one out.
@@RexKrueger www.amazon.com/Stanley-1-12-004-Smooth-Bailey-Multicolor/dp/B0001GRVKU/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=stanley+bailey&qid=1557883547&s=gateway&sr=8-2
Not nearly as cheap as the other one BUT perhaps for like double the price you get more than double the benefits? The old No. 4 might still win though.
I recently acquired two ECE planes where one came with a chip breaker while the other did not (just like yours). In fact, it's not even set up for a chip breaker. What's up with that?
I'm not sure. Could be intended as a scrub plane. Still a fine plane.
@@RexKrueger could I send you photos of the ECE without the chip breaker? I would love to hear some comments from you - at least whether you have the same model?
Sure. rexkrueger at gmail
Rex you are the man
You're very kind!
Rex,
The non vintage Stanley #4 I mentioned in the comments in the original video has what appears to be a wider mouth than the vintage one you have in this vid. If I slide the frog forward to close the gap between cutting edge and front of the mouth, does this effectively do the same thing......or does that leave too much unsupported blade? I'm pretty sure at the moment that the iron is being supported a little bit by the machined edge of hte back of the mouth, the part that has some of the 45 degree angle cut into it...under the frog. Sliding the frog forward of this point would lose that support.
I should say that I can make 0.001" shavings in white oak with it as it is now ( big mouth) and well sharpened, so I probably don't need to do any better for a general purpose #4
Thanks for these vids!!
You're very welcome! Personally, I would leave the frog where it is and keep the blade fully supported. I think that's more important.
If you properly adjust the cap iron close enough (get it close, tighten it down as hard as you can,tap it with a mallet until there's only the barest whiff of the back of the blade exposed) then the mouth being fairly wide won't matter. Old factory-made (mostly american) wooden planes meant for a double iron have very wide mouths due to the increased thickness of the cutter.
But if you're getting 1 thou shavings you probably don't need to do anything.
@@Aubreykun that's the part that bothers me - I can't get the lever cap any lower, but I have the chip breaker set very close ... like 1/32 perhaps?
honed the iron with a light camber and the chip breaker is almost covering the corners, so the center of the blade is pretty much just the bit that exposes due to the camber on the edge.
I have used it on some figured maple and there was no tear out. I suppose that the results speak for themselves - glass smooth surface on white/red oak, pine 2x# lumber, a piece that was for sure Douglas fir, and walnut.
What surprised me a lot was the tear out on eastern red cedar, the white portion of the wood is fine, hit the purple stuff and it was like I tried to plane it with a crow bar. I looked and for sure it was a climb cut, so that was against me, but man, I thought that the purple part had a little more to say for itself.... perhaps it was just a punky piece ( oh, it does well on spaulted maple as well.
Everything but the walnut was stuff I had milled down out of either firewood, or local trees. The cedar specificall was from "dead fall" some sort of blight wiped out a large number of trees on some property we have and I've started collecting the larger sections of trunk to mill - the pattern of the purple / white wood is pretty spectacular if I guess well when I mill it out.
Thanks for the advice on the lever cap, I'll look again.
Another thing to keep in mind is that some pieces of wood really can't be planed or aren't worth the trouble. This is one of the reasons scraper planes were invented. Some boards are just terrible to plane, but the good old No. 80 cabinet scraper will do the trick. When I get really tricky wood, I sand it. No shame in plugging something in to get the job done.
@@RexKrueger ...for the really stubborn boards you just tie it to the back of your truck and drag it up and down the road a few times. I think that's about a 5 grit
An ECE plane the same shape as yours with a cambered single blade makes a great scrub plane.