Glow plastic always more overstable? 12 Premium vs Glow Comparison | The Plastic is in the Details
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- čas přidán 24. 01. 2024
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Imo the MVP discs with glow rims are a bad compare the R2 plastic is recycled and the density changes so no consistency and with so little glow plastic on them it wasn't a good choice
I always look forward to six sided disc videos and appreciate the time it may have taken to make. So much research has to go into these gems.
There are two components:
1. Weight distribution. (gyro) For a given mold, if it has more weight shifted to the rim, it will hold stable for longer because it will maintain it's spin longer, but it takes more effort to get it up to speed.
2. PLH. This is what affect stability. Higher parting line = more overstable, lower parting line = more understable.
The Parting Line Height of a disc is impacted by the mold design, but also the manufacturing process. Different plastic contract more or less during cooling and this pulls the parting line higher. This is why beat in disc get more understable. Every hit lowers the PLH slightly as the disc flexes on impact, bows up in the middle and stretches more in the center.
Gyro make a disc stay in it's high speed turn part of it's flight longer, the PLH dictates how overstable the disc will be when its spin slow enough to enter the low speed fade part of it's flight.
There is a little cross over in the gryo and PLH effect. That is why MVP has 4 distinct phases of flight. Gyro push (straight push), aerodynamic turn (turn), aerodynamic fade (fade), gyro fade (slightly extended part of the fade because the gyro forces keep the spin slightly longer).
Excellent explanation
What he said 👏
It's been proven that spinning objects like discs and bullets maintain a fairly constant rate of spin from the beginning of their flight to the end by making registry marks on the object and measuring rpms at the time of launch and near terminus using high speed photography. Spin definitely stabilizes a disc, locking it into any given line - an understable disc, for example, will exhibit high speed turn later in its flight when thrown with more spin, and an overstable will carry further on an anhyzer line before flexing out when thrown with higher spin. But it's not because throws with less spin run out of spin, there's really only friction to slow spin, and friction through air even at sea level isn't enough to affect it in the short time/ distance of a golf disc's flight. It has to do with gyroscopic precession. The faster it spins, the more the weight shifts to the edges and the center of gravity to an even smaller point in the middle of the disc. It's easier to demonstrate with a bike wheel or actual gyroscope.
Thanks for including the nerdy stuff! No one does it better than you guys ✊️
All of trilogy goes lucid, then moonshine, then lucid-x. X plastic is specifically made to be easy more overstable. It basically makes the disc not the same
This has got to be one of my favorite videos you have made. I really like how you referenced other videos to help better explain the science behind plastic types and how it affects the weight distribution of discs. Very interesting!!
I think the subject matter of this video was great and you presented fantastically! Loved it great job. There was one thing I would have done differently. For the trespass, you used lucid-x plastic and from my experience that is significantly more overstable than the regular lucid plastic. Plus lucid-x is only used in special runs. For that comparison you should have used standard lucid plastic which is probably their most common premium plastic. Or if you wanted to get really fancy compare all three lucid, lucid glow and lucid-x.
This was an awesome video. Loving when you get into the science of discs. It would have been really nice to have compared the dome/disc height or parting line height of each mold in both plastics before you threw to see if that correlated more strongly with stability. Maybe for a future video!
I really appreciate these videos
Love the video and the added science. One thing I think you're missing from the science side of things is the main reason glow, or other plastic types affect the amount of dome and wing height in discs.
You can find a lot of information about it on MVP's lab report from last year on the MVP website, but the short of it is, molds are designed to account for the plastic shrinking as they cool. In addition to the conditions in the location where it is cooled, the amount of time a disc is allowed to cool in the mold versus outside of the mold make a big impact on stability. The longer a disc is left in the mold, the slower it cools and the more it is forced to stay in the shape of the mold. As far as plastics go, glow particles cause the heat to dissipate differently, and can cause the disc to not shrink as much as other plastic types, which should, in theory, make the wing stay higher and have less shoulder or dome. This is especially true of MVP discs because they have a larger amount of glow particles in their plastic than many other manufacturers.
However, because MVP is aware of this, they have taken great strides to adjust when they pull glow discs from the mold, to make them match as close as possible the regular discs in the lineup. I would assume other manufacturers also try to do the same thing and have a process for how long they keep glow in a mold versus non-glow.
But, like you mentioned, environmental factors will also have an effect, so if the plastic has more moisture to start with, or the warehouse it's cooled in is more humid that day, then it can affect any particular run of disc, regardless of the plastic type.
Gyroscopic stability is definitely a thing, but it requires force to gain inertia.
Therefore, more weight in the perimeter of the disc will result in slightly less spin out of the hand but will retain its spin later in the flight.
This is why I believe MVP has great discs flights until you get into the drivers. I believe there is likely a sweet spot for performance depending on arm speed and spin generated.
Someone needs to build a robot to test this that does not produce a specific rpm, rather applies a specific Force to mimic a human.
I really like that you added the science bit. And on that topic I finally hope that we can start talking about lift and not glide. Glide is such a bad term.
Though what I didn’t like was the curve ball of having the R2 glow rim crave in the test. The R2 plastic it self is a heavier flight plane and the glow has different mass then the normal rim plastic. So it just messes up the data.
Thanks for another video. Clearly it would take thousands or tens of thousands of throws in conjunction with a rigorous sampling method and a disc throwing robot to be truly “scientific”, however the 6 sided disc team is providing a better version of this content than anyone else out there at the moment. Always food for thought!
Different plastic deforms differently as it cools, thats the main reason why you see differences in the same mold
My prediction is yes, due to some physical or chemical effect the glowing compound has on the plastic blend, it likely changes how the plastic shrinks as it cools, keeping lower parting lines or shoulders or some geometric element
You can definitely see how the eclipse blend cools lower to the rim than neutron. It seems to pronounce the PLH effect, making release angles hold longer.
Until this video, I didn’t see the connection between weight distribution and stability, but Greg’s results fit my own experience.
I started using Overstable discs as rollers because they were clearly heavier on the rim and would roll farther than understable discs that were heavier in the flight plate. Great video! Thanks.
1. Loved the brief science explanations. Why reinvent the wheel? 2. I was throwing a new Glow Resistor (6.5/4/0/3.5) yesterday and could not get over how overstable it flew. I did not know its flight numbers, but right out of my hand it started to fade. I chalked it up to being glow plastic. Having looked at the numbers now, I am not so sure. My glow DX Valkyrie is definitely much more under stable compared to any of my other Valkyries, and as such it the only Valkyrie I throw.
The interesting thing is how weight was completely overlooked as a factor here. Same thing happened when the Midnight Flyer (first glow disc) was created. Ed made them glow with phosphorus. After production, he noticed that they were heavier. Not sure how it affected the shrink and, therefore, the shape, but heavier is harder to accelerate so it is able to be thrown faster. Think old school, like an Aviar or a Frisbee and imagine being able to throw it faster since it is more resistant to turn. Newer plastic probably has less variability with the change to glow.
Loved this format!! Keep making us nerds happy!
I think fission is an interesting plastic. It's designed to have more gyro to it so that you can use the disc in a lighter weight, but I have found my fission discs to beat in somewhat quick and very nicely while having a great feel to the plastic, so I typically am actually choosing fission for when I want to beat in a disc to fill a slot more understable than that same mold in other plastics.
Love the science... and the bloopers as always!
The plastic determines the shape the disc will be in after it cools down, and depending on how it was stored during the cooldown, and after. I don't think it affects the weight distribution from the inside to the outside of the disc, rather the wing height and amount of dome. I've seen DX Wraiths and Destroyers, so even though there's less plastic in the middle of these discs, what generally makes them less stable is the wings tend to droop more on baser plastics.
Also keep in mind there are different glow plastics - notably DX Glow vs Champ Glow. So testing something comparable to each would be DX and Champ. The interesting thing about the Crave comparison is the R2 plastic is generally less stable, even if the rim is potentially more. The Neutron one is all Neutron.
With all that said, I think it's important to see how each manufacturer deals with in-mold and out-of-mold cooling. This seems to be a more protected area given so few people see this process. Maybe this is the next horizon for this type of video.
Loved the science section, always enjoy these comparisons. I feel like sticking to closer plastic types for the comparisons would give us better data though. I saw others point out the Eclipse and Lucid, the other would be comparing innova's Glow Champion to Champion instead of Star.
Love the science segment! Also, it's crazy how straight the Glitch flies!
isn't DD's Lucid-X plastic (and other -X plastics), expectedly more overstable than their standard versions? the Trespass from your first video appears to be the Lucid. as for the disc with only a glow rim, I'm not sure that people will understand the conclusion there; if a glow plastic were to have more shrinkage (which causes less dome), a glow rim could make for a tighter band around the core, causing compression, and pushing the dome up, making it more understable. so it might have made some sense to place that one in a separate category, in order to demonstrate what might happen if you have a glow band around it.
great video ... thanks
I'm not sure what the green disk is on the table in the background right... But Australian & New Zealanders would say that was the "Woolworths" logo...
You deserve so many more subscribers. Great video!
I have a glow grym and its possibly the flippiest disc after a dx leopard
I am subscribed to your channel and I love the content but I can't resist offering my observations as I am obsessed with physics and disc golf ❤
This is exactly why I love your content. I was told glow was more overstable, and even though I never tested it, I had it in my mind it should be beefier. Now, I need to go back and test my glows. There is only one glow disc I bag for non-glow rounds (Hex). In my experience, it has been pretty stable. Thanks again for the work you do!
My favorite throwing putter is the Mint Nocturnal Bullet. With my noodle arm, it was super straight vs OS. As of now, it is starting to get a slight turn from use. Time to practice hyperflips, lol
Full weight fission octane does seem to have a strange effect to it. I have a worn and really understable octane that flips over from a lot of hyzer. My fission octane turns over but slower than any disc I know. From some hyzer to hitting the ground on an anhyzer angle over 350 feet. Now octanes don't have a real fade, they just drop down when the stops but it still feels like a strange flight. A gyroscopic effect would make sense, the high speed turn phase being extended.
In my experience, especially with the hex, my glow hex is more overstable than my fission hex. But I do agree with your final conclusions, even though in my experience glow discs have been more overstable
Another great video! Your science is good, but not really graduate school level, but better than what most disc golfers will understand. I think there could have been better choices in plastic to compare against, but you are limited to what you own, and what is in stock at your store. Your results were 100% dead on with my experiences.
For your next science project please do how plastic hardness affects stability. Mainly putters, comparing soft, medium, and hard blends. The Westside fanboys have always said that the soft Harps are the most overstable, while fanboys of other companies swear that softer means more understable.
Great video. I would really love to know how rim width plays in also. It seems that it increases the weight at the rim and makes it more difficult to get the same rpms.
Interestingly enough (related to the Hexes), I’ve thrown several neutron and several fission Photons and the fission Photons all turn more than the neutron Photons.
I wish you'd listed a few confounders. MVP specifically has been putting a lot of focus lately on getting their glow plastic to fly like the actual flight numbers. A few years ago (like that Halloween insanity era) every glow disc I threw of theirs was much more overstable than the stock ones I tried. I also think more consistency should have been established in the control disc for each mold. A lot of Glow plastic for me essentially just acts as premium plastic (starting fairly overstable and taking longer to beat in). It would have been worth mentioning that discs become less stable as they hit trees and that age and use level of a disc factor into its stability. I also don't think the glow rim is the most meaningful data for this experiment.
Testing different runs of the same plastic would be interesting. My glow halloween lizzotle even beat in is slightly more overstable than my fresh neutron hex. I wonder if the lizzotles are more overstable than the stock eclipse hexes.
i've found glow to be more OS just because i'm usually starting with a lighter disc in a star-type plastic but the glow version is always heavier and in a champion-style plastic. it's simply more disc than i'm used to in that mold.
@18:40 no offense, but I believe you're going to have to revisit this and make some corrections.
-The 'stability' of a disc is primarily dependent on the PLH
- the 'gyroscopic stability' of a disc is primarily dependent on weight distribution
Didn't know I was gonna take Physics 101 again! Useful info to have though if you go to a physical store and are trying to compare a disc in different plastics.
Finding anything understable glow has been a pain. The Mana is the only thing I've loved so far.
Mockingbird glow by lone Star… kaw kaw money!
So, a question: In the segment 8:25-8:53, you talk about "more of the weight moving out toward the rim" with different plastics and that stronger plastics can be thinner. But do we know that that really happens in practice? Using the same mold, but different plastics, do we know if the manufacturers are actually changing the thickness of the flightplate? Because regardless of the strength or density of the plastic, if the thicknesses don't change, then the ratio of weight in the plate vs the weight in the rim should be constant, right?
(note, this observation wouldn't apply to gyro tech discs, since they always have a denser plastic in the rim, so their ratios *could* change from plastic to plastic for the rest of the disc)
Good question. I've never seen any proof that happens. The plastic types will change the shape of the disc, as well as color (due to the slight variances in chemical makeup), and how the disc cools in and out of the mold. For example a disc might cool off in the mold more for some runs than others, and temperature, humidity will also vary even in controlled environments. Lastly, some plastics expand more than others. Take a Victor putter and an Alpha putter from Lone Star. The Victor putter will often be "fluffier" because it expands more when it come out of the mold. It's just the nature of the plastic. So the Victor putter might be a touch less aerodynamic, and it's shape may change a touch.
Love this
This was a great test. For people who love MVP discs...
Regarding the Trespass, I am pretty sure Lucid X is more overstable than Lucid or Fuzion so comparing it to the Moonshine wasn't a fare test.
Disc weight for MVP has been the biggest factor in stability in my experience. I'm thinking that since they claim to put most of the weight on the rim, a lighter weight disc disproportionally subtracts weight from the rim, resulting in less gyro stability. I bet this is why the light weight R2s with glow rims are less stable.
I'm about a 10 speed, but use up to 13 because I use disks for what I can do with them, not what the company says they do at an arbitrary speed. I can get mi Signal 10m short of my Beasts...
My Champion Beast is stable in light headwinds. (Overstable in calm, under in high).
My Glow Beast is understable. I need about 20deg Hyzer for a smooth throw and 30 for power... It often ends as a roller due to poor release angle nearer flat.
My base plastic Beast (Pink with the Minotaur logo) is way understable. If I power it with about 40+deg Hyzer it gets up there, turns over my shoulder and goes awaaaaaaaaaay.
The Champion plastic looks in best condition (with near no ink left), Glow very average.. with little ink left, and the case plastic has more ink.. but is becoming a 100 sided object rather than a circle... nonetheless all fly very smoothly.
Side note: My most OVERSTABLE disk (We call "Broken") is a very domey RPM Kotare (Koh Tah Ree {roughy, and emphasise the Koh}... oddly the angle increases at the border of rim/dome rather than decrease like the Basilisk, making it look a little like a prop from a 50's 'Martians ate my door mat' movie.
I just want to point out spin rate means nothing without a value for rotational inertia. Meaning a disc can have the same angular momentum with a low rpm high inertia disc compared to a high speed low inertia disc. MVP has higher rotational inertia than other brands. No matter the rotational inertia of a disc you can still only exert so much on a disc.
i have a glow rollo and a halo glow sonic and i can say those 2 are a bit more overstable than other plastics. the sonic has a -4 turn but i can throw it on a steeo hyzer and it wont flip over on me. same goes for the rollo. for it to actually roll i have to force it over.
I have had glow discs that were more stable and some glow discs that were less stable than their non-glow runs
Used to be a Trespass thrower, the Lucid plastic one I had was by far the most understable. Fuzion was most overstable
iFLS keep ‘em coming
love the video
My glow envy is a straighter flyer than my soft neutron envy, which has the fade you'd expect from an envy. Notch one for the other ☝️
So based on the idea that more material is distributed to the rim with premium plastics...couldn't you simply cut out the center of both a premium overstable disc and a base plastic and compare the weight of the center cutout and the weight of the rim to test that theory?
came here to see if someone suggested this already..
The eclipse insanity has got to be the worst example. I'm fine with discs intended to be overstable coming out even more beefy like the resistor.
Also, DX plastic specifically is made to be very understable. They use the exact same molds, there is no way to get more plastic into the flight plate. It’s just a cooling process that affects the parting line differently.
I threw a glow resistor the other day and couldn’t believe how OS it was. I chalked it up to the glow plastic, not realizing that it is meant to be a beefcake. I would love to get my hands on a neutron resistor, just to compare the two.
I've thrown gyro, personally I love the durability but haven't noticed a huge difference, other than, its fairly hard to find max weight gyro drivers, and they are shockingly flat most the time. I get more consistent flight out of slightly domeir discs, the mystere I find is a more predictable Wave for me.
I can adjust my game with any disc you give me. I'll go for the cool glow.
Could have mentioned glow holds it's stability
ew flight longer than other premium plastic
Why not compare Innova Champion glow plastic against Champion plastic
I had this happen with that exact glow Insanity! I lost a nice beat in one and replaced it with that glow one. Not even remotely the same disc.
interesting, iv only thrown a few glow discs and they seemed more stable.
Prediction, NO, only some brands sometimes.
Depends on the run I suppose. Everyone knows the Lizotle Hex is more stable than this year's Eclipse Hex
Again, it's mass above or below the parting line. If the glow plastic cooling process pulls the PLH higher it will be more overstable.
Mark & veratasium in a disc video have I died and gone to heaven?
For Innova, you shouldn't compare star and champion glow. Compare champion and champion glow.
For the Axiom Crave, the glow comparison is meaningless. You said the biggest difference should be in the dome of the flight plate, yet the R2 glow only has glow rim so clearly the glow plastic is not affecting the flight plate. Meanwhile, it's R2, which in everything I've tried (Nomad, Crave, Relay) is more understable than regular Neutron.
My glow Shryke is more stable than any of my other Shrykes; Conversely, my glow Beast is extremely flippy.
That trespass was thrown on hyzer of course it's gonna go right like really wtf 😢
With Loft discs the glow versions are definitely more stable.
Lol, the end is like a Shrek movie.
Hate glow plastic, always have.
I think the larger part of it is the fact that glow is almost always max weight.
I wish you could see the face I made when I read this. Got me thinking real hard like...have we ever had lightweight glow plastic, trying to scan my brain over 13,000 or so discs, you might be on to something here...because I can't think of any off thet op of my head. Hmm...
@@SixSidedDiscs I know I've never seen glow under 170
Great point. I have 20 glow discs currently - the lightest one is 173. Looking at Infinite's website there's 71 glow discs and the lightest one is 171. I can't recall seeing any lighter than that. Outside of a Glitch.
you shod have compared parting lines imo
More science. Science is good.
i dont feel like the crave was a valid comp cause the plate isn't glow and from what i've heard and experienced those gyropalooza craves are all more understable than others
also i felt the tern was too close as well and i would have liked to see the jarn's shape cause ive had two and they were very different shapes
your methodology is flawed in that different manufacturers use different polymers in their glow blends....so you are effectively comparing apples to oranges here. you would need a mass spectrometer , or have to get the manufactures to disclose their blends to do a fair comparison. For example, you can get a glow TPU blend, and a glow PETG blend, and the flow characteristics in the mold are entirely different . the science is sound, but the methodology you are using to compare them is flawed in that you are not taking material into account.
I came to say this. DD and Innova have such low glow it's basically like their normal lucid/champ. But I think the point they were making is that "glow doesn't mean more OS" so in that case it is true.
Is it me or does weight contribute to different flights. Since the newer glitches can be heavier than the old ones.