The Real Reason Why Wales Isn't Represented on the Union Jack
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- čas přidán 3. 05. 2024
- Why isn't Wales represented on the Union Jack? This is a question that very likely crosses the mind of anyone invested in either Welsh history or Wales, and the answer is not always obvious.
The history of Wales and why Wales isn't on the Union Flag is much more complex and interesting than many people give it credit for! How many times have you heard that Wales simply isn't represented on the Union Jack because James I decided not to include it? What about the modern fight for the Welsh flag? What about the factors that influenced the people of Wales since 1707? The history of Wales and the Welsh flag is often completely side-lined in the discussion of Welsh representation on the Union Jack, it is too often overshadowed by uncomplicated and uninteresting misconceptions and oversimplifications of Welsh history.
So in this video, my aim is to tell you the real story as to why Wales isn't included on the Union Jack, how the history of Wales and the Welsh factored in to both the historical and modern decisions involving its inclusion, and how the fight for the Welsh flag ultimately resolved this conflict for the time being, but who knows what might change in the future.
Chapters:
0:00 - The Past
3:38 - The Present
Sources:
Davies, J. (2007). A History of Wales. London: Penguin, pp.156, 227-232.
Eriksen, T.H. and Jenkins, R. (2007). Flag, Nation and Symbolism in Europe and America. Routledge, pp.79-80.
Tatlock, J.S.P. (1933). The Dragons of Wessex and Wales. Speculum, 8(2), p.228.
Thornton, T. (2000). Dynasty and Territory in the Early Modern Period: The Princes of Wales and their Western British Inheritance. Welsh History Review, 20(1), pp.13, 27-28.
Pryce, H. (1998). Owain Gwynedd and Louis VII: The Franco-Welsh Diplomacy of the First Prince of Wales. Welsh History Review, 19(1), p.22.
Wintour, P. (2007). Minister proposes a redesign for the union flag. The Guardian. [online] Available at: www.theguardian.com/politics/....
Source for the map of the Principality of Wales and the Marcher Lords: a 'A History of Wales' by John Davies, page 227, and commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi... (XrysD, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons).
Poll asks if Welsh element to Union flag idea is a flyer. (2014). BBC. [online] Available at: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-2....
Maps:
© OpenStreetMap contributors, licensed under CC BY-SA: www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
www.floodmap.net/
Music by © Chris Zabriskie - CC BY-SA 4.0
chriszabriskie.bandcamp.com
'Another Version of You', 'CGI Snake' by Chris Zabriskie are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 licence. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Source: chriszabriskie.com/dtv/
Artist: chriszabriskie.com/
Images:
Flag of England, Nicholas Shanks, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Flag of Scotland, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Saint Patrick's Saltire, Hoshie, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Ulster Banner, Mamadou, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Baner Cymru, Tobias Jakobs, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Arbfais Tuduriaid, Cooke Clarenceux, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Cadwaladr, Maelgwn, Cadwallon - National Library of Wales (NLW), CC0, hdl.handle.net/10107/4396654 (p.220, 204, 210)
Henry VII - NLW, CC0, hdl.handle.net/10107/4669811
James I - NLW, CC0, hdl.handle.net/10107/4670935
James V, Corneille de Lyon, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
College of Arms, Sodacan, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Arms of the United Kingdom, Sodacan, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons
Royal Badge of Wales, Sodacan, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons
#wales
Actually, you see, Wales is on the Union Jack, however the dragon is incredibly good at camouflage, so it is hiding behind the red crosses
Yes hiding is about right
Does the white hide the English white dragon?
@@jerryfriend7489 nah it got drowned in the blue.
I am Australian we have the union jack in the left hand corner of our flag do.s that mean that the dragon has to be on that to or maybe we should change our flag with a kangaroo and a koala in the top left hand corner
It must be related to Elliot, the dragon who helped Pete escape child slavery.
"Named after his K/D Ratio," that one caught me off guard 😂
A history regarding Wales' flag would be fantastic. I always wonder who drew our flag and the Red Dragon's history.
I would have thought the dragon is the one that Saint George killed
Your flag is awesome! Much love from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷🤙🏽🏴💪🏽
@@issemayhem except he didn't kill a dragon, was born in Turkey and never came to the UK
Actually, the dragon has roots in the flag of Owain Glyndwr.
William Blake, drew it.
In fact, there is a secondary flag for Wales, which follows the pattern of other countries in the United Kingdom. It's the "Flag of Saint David", which is almost the same as the flag of England, except that the cross is yellow and the background is black. This flag is even present on the Welsh capital's football club badge! Perhaps they should adopt that cross on the flag of the United Kingdom, or at least on the coat of arms perhaps.
Ugh, fine, put the dragon on there, adding more colors would be even uglier.
@@StumpfForFreedom100% agree. Trying to incorporate yellow, black, or both into the current Union Jack simply DOES NOT work. Frankly, I've yet to see a Union Jack redesign that features standard Welsh colors or symbols in an elegant and pleasing way.
@@irishjet2687 True, but they could definitely change the coat of arms just by replacing one of the quadrants with english lion with a dragon. Maybe then we could even get away with adding the coat of arms onto the union Jack like with the Spanish and Portuguese flags, but maybe thay would look bad idk
If Scotland achieves independence then a new flag could replace the blue of St Andrews saltire with the black of St David's flag with the St Patrick's saltire bounded by yellow instead of white. It could then even be interpreted as also incorporating the St Piran cross for Kernow!
@@RealUlrichLelandThe Union flag has the advantage of simplicity together with absence of figures, so is easy to create, and easy to recognise, even in black and white.
The Welsh flag is cool AF, with that bloody great dragon on it, and the Union Flag is a design classic. So I'm all for leaving things as they are.
But hard to draw. Better off with the St David's cross.
@@therespectedlex9794 I'd agree, but the st David's cross just isn't nearly as popular as the st George's, st Andrew's, or st Patrick's crosses. Mayne using the green and white background of the Welsh flag could be better
@@Saphfire05 You use the yellow from the cross in your football kits. World Cup too!
@@therespectedlex9794 I have seen yellow in some mockup flags and I guess that could work as the FAW have gone back to a yellow kit. However, the other countries have representation of both colours of their crosses on the flag, though they all kind of share the white. Putting just 1 colour might look inferior, and putting black in doesn't seem like it would look nice. Also, I'm actually canadian instead of welsh, but I ok with being welsh for the day lol
@@Saphfire05 I think they wear black too.
I think the dragon should be reincorporated into the coat of arms, so there is at least some representation for Wales in our national symbols. Considering that Scotland and (Northern) Ireland already have representation on the Union Flag, at least this compromise would be fair. I'm not sure what would replace the current supporting animals though, perhaps the dragon could be curled up on the bottom behind the motto? Or the dragon could replace the lion, and the lion is put upon the crown at the top?
I’m not sure what design the original petitioners wanted, I assume they would want a dragon on the shield and that that would replace one of the two English lion sections
If only a Welsh person would go back in time to 400 CE to Industrialized and Militarized Wales!
@@christiandauz3742 why?
@@vanpallandt5799
Then Wales wouldn't be the unwanted redhead stepchild of the Union
But with a dragon the flag would look garbage
I thought that the white in the union jack represented Wales. The two reds going for england and Ireland, the blue for Scotland and the white coming from the Welsh flag.
I can see I was totally wrong and this video was great, thank you for clarifying years of wrong guesses from my part lol
If the white in the bottom half was green, that would do it.
The white and blue was the Saltair the flag of Scotland
The white you're referring to was specifically to represent Scotland's white cross so that the blue was not confused for a meaningless background color. That's why it's split down the center line with the Irish cross.
This is kind of like saying the “e” in Great Britain represents the “e” in Wales
@@sebe2255They have already admitted that they were wrong. What's wrong with you?
The Welsh flag may have only been officially adopted in 1959, but I recall seeing it flown or waved widely in the early 1950s. From my last return visit to Wales in 1975 and from more recent news or documentary footage, most places in Wales fly both flags simultaneously from separate flagpoles, or just fly the Welsh flag if they don't have room for both. As a naturalised Australian now, the only place I fly the Union Jack is in the canton of the Australian 🇦🇺 flag.
I am half Aussie (Scottish MacDonald clan heritage) half English, but I won't fly any flag except the Eureka Flag. My English family has their own tartan and clan too back in England, always wearing the kilt to events.
Hopefully Australia one day takes the Aboriginal flag as national flag. It’s so nice and Australian, and can be cherished by both settlers and original inhabitants. Compare how Canada uses a Canadian symbol as flag instead of a derivative of the British flag.
@@TayT300 American here, never heard of the Eureka Flag!
I spent my childhood in the coal mining state of West Virginia, where there have been lots of armed uprising by miners over unfair working conditions.
I'm picturing the meme of the two beefy arms clasping hands; AUS on one side, WV on the other, and "Miner Uprisings" in the middle lol
@@bricknolty5478 There's an entry on Wikipedia about the Eureka flag. Basically, it is white cross on a Prussian blue background, with a seven pointed star at the end of each arm of the cross and one in the centre. It is a symbolic representation of the Southern Cross. Having been hijacked by various activist groups over the years, it has accumulated too much political baggage to be considered seriously as a national flag any more. Which is a pity.
@@eilivulv What specifically Australian symbol appears on the Aboriginal flag? What does it symbolise to the nation as a whole. The only flag of any Australian State or Territory that I think is wholly Australian and truly representative of all its people is the Northern Territory flag. Now imagine the Sturt's desert rose replaced by the Federation Star, or a sprig of wattle, as the national flag.
ps, What about the Torres Strait Islands flag, which is pretty much flown alongside the Aboriginal flag everywhere these days?
This is CZcams history done right. No dumbing down or glossing over. Nice work
It's youtube history all right.
He didn't even get the name of the flag right.
That "kill death ratio" joke got me. Well done.
Thank you!
@@CambrianChronicles very funny
This clip has explained the historical reasons why Wales isn't represented on the Union Jack. But there re also vexillological reasons. The English, the Scottish and the Irish flags have patterns of the same type, which are easily combined into an aesthetically pleasing whole. The Welsh dragon - figurative, and totally dominating the flag - is very difficult to fit into a design of the Union Jack type. It is difficult to envision a red dragon on the Unnion Jack that neither dominates the design unduly, nor disappears into insignificance. The only way I can envision a Welsh element in the Union Jack is by adding some if the Welsh flag's green colour into the cross design.
St David has a cross flag? it is yellow and black.
@@sarahgargani5836Yes, but not only is that not official, the colors don't work well with the pre-exisitng elements of the flag.
I used to be pretty active in the r/Vexillology subreddit, and I've seen dozens of attempts to incorporate Welsh symbolism into the Union Jack. I've even seen attempts at a theoretical flag of a Scotland-less and/or Northern Ireland-less United Kingdom. Outside of a complete, start-from-scratch redesign, it either doesn't work or causes the dragon to be the main emphasis of the flag.
"dominates the design unduly,"
Sure, but is this really an issue? It'd make the Union Jack 100% more awesome.
Honestly I think you probably could have it both ways, with a reduced size dragon in the centre. I'll try to make a mock up tomorrow to see how it looks. The only issue might be the red on red, but I think the Dragon's black outline would be enough to make it work well.
My personal favourite idea to incorporate the welsh flag to the union jack was to replace the the bit of the english flag that goes up with a red dragon neck then head. I do geel that it would be a pain to draw so not ideal from that pov but it definitely looked good
You could have a much smaller dragon that just fits in the center. I saw a mockup of such a flag and it looked great!
Having just discovered your entertaining and informative channel I, as a proud 'Cymro' living in Oxford, have immediately subscribed. Many thanks for all your diligent research in producing these fascinating episodes!
I’m not welsh. So my reasonings for wanting the red dragon on the Union Jack is very simple. Dragons are cool, flags are cool. So a flag with a dragon would only be cooler
Dragons are ugly
Fun fact the dragon has 3 different Welsh myths about it
@@samjustsam interesting
What would be cooler, is for Wales to achieve independence, making this debate irrelevant 🏴
@@PD-jj4fo Im Welsh but I think Welsh independence from Britain would be awful, i dont want to live in a separate country from Britain. Wales in British
Both flags are great and combining them in any form would sully both. There is also a Scottish version of the Union Jack without the Irish addition but it looks more like an anti-Iceland flag unfortunately.
Haha I know the one you mean, I never thought of it as anti-Iceland but now I won’t be able to un-see it!
Thats just the old union jack
This 👉 🇬🇧 is a great flag? 🤣🤣🤣
@@daidavies90
One of the most unique and visually interesting flag designs on the planet whilst still being aesthetically pleasing. That's pretty hard to do and does indeed make it a very well designed flag
@@godlovesyou1995 True. They're seen often in the New England parts of the U.S. due to it being the version during colonial times.
I think that adding the dragon would make the Union Jack much cooler than the UK deserves
I've binged all of your videos over the past few days. No personal connection to Wales, just a lover of learning about obscure historical periods. Just wow! What a treasure trove of history, correcting misinformation, and cheeky bits of humor all combined into amazing videos. Thank you for all your hard work, and I look forward to seeing what you cover next!
Commenting to say this. His videos have lived in my recommended for years and never bit but now I have and I'm hooked
At 6:03 ...I'm a Vexillologist...Wales has one of the best flags EVER!!!!!
The Pendragon
I think Albania's tops it.
One important detail that’s not mentioned is that the Tudors descended from a prominent Welsh family, so in a sense the Welsh (in the person of Henry VII) conquered England.
Well, according to this logic in 1918 the Germans launched an desperate large offensive against the Germans, which were supported by the Germans after successfully defeating the Germans with their German Allies.
(Russias tsar was of German descend and so was the British king, while Austrians are Germans and France descendants from the Francs/Franconians/ Franken which were Germans or Porto Germans.
Yep and basically is half the problem since James I removed it in favor of the unicorn even though he basically has three supporters indeed because of Charles III is also of Hanover, Saxe-Coburg Gotha and Glücksburg orgins he also has a larger variety of animals and other objects in his pedigree but overall he would have to be given authority from the College Of Arms and consent from the UK Parliament if not all Parliaments within the Commonwealth, so overall changing the Royal Coat Of Arms would much more difficult than to just change the Union Jack
Technically Henry Tudor only became king because he murdered the previous king. He claim to the throne is suspect
The Tudors were a minor branch of the English House of Lancaster and Henry Tudor was legally barred from any claim to the crown by legislation that debarred his ancestors and their descendents (including him) in both the maternal and paternal lines. He was only able to make his tenuous claim to the crown because Edward of Westminster,
the last Lancastrian who had an arguably legitimate one, was killed at the Battle of Tewkesbury.
If course, none of that mattered in the end because Henry Tudor had a large force of French mercenaries and a traitor in Richard III's army who was willing to change sides at the critical moment.
So much could be added here!
Henry of Richmond didn’t actually do anything to ‘win’ his crown, he didn’t put up the funds for the invasion, (that was the French and his mother, a Lancastrian Beaufort), nor did he recruit the Norman mercenaries (who brought the Sweat with them), nor did he strategize, plot with messengers, spies and agents (that was Bray et al), nor did he become involved in any of the actual fighting - he was never formally trained in such martial activities having left the Herbert household probably soon after the execution of the Earl of Pembroke (William Herbert) - he was surrounded by men who were to protect him and the sight of Richard quite literally only feet away from deciding the battle by killing him would have stayed with him his whole life!
Whether it was Rhys ap Thomas or another of William Stanley’s men who came from behind and struck down Richard, in the manner of chivalric honor, we will never know, but it saved Richmond’s quaking life. And the Stanleys’ never let H7 forget that he owed everything g to them, and they certainly behaved as if they were king. Read up on their behavior from Bosworth onward - it is not Warwick who should be called ‘Kingmaker’ but the Stanleys, and they owned Henry of Richmond.
As to Henry’s parentage, more than a few have speculated - and I refer to academics, not BBC wags, that Edmund Beaufort was his father.
The dragon is also a complicated device to add to the Union Jack. Maybe a small 20 mph sign on the left side would be adequate
I've found your channel few months ago, and I never would have though that I'll find welsh medieval history so interesting
I am Welsh and a number of years ago i had words with an english student. With reference to wales not represented on the union jack. She said wales was because of the red in the flag. I told her the red crosses on the flag was for england and ireland and the blue for scotland. And wales was not represented
because it was not counted as an separate country but part of england. She would not have it and kept saying its was because of the red in the flag.
It could be. Why not make it official that the red is now Wales. Sorted.
Ireland is no longer part of the uk but six counties of Ireland are still aline to the uk so what you're saying six counties of Ireland which there's thirty two counties in total are entitled to be in uk flag but Wales isn't, do you see where I'm coming from? The six counties of Ireland is not a nation, Ulster is nine counties so you can't use Ulster even because only six of the nine counties are aline to the uk .
There's four provinces in Ireland Ulster,connaught,,munster and Leinster
@Oxi Firebeard You're a tool.
@@Raggman42 well Northern Ireland is part of the UK , but the southern part of ireland
Yma o Hyd Brawd 👍🏴
Union Jack is basically St.Gorge's Cross, St.Andrew's Cross and St . Patrick's Cross combined.
We've got St.Davids Cross for Cymru, which is definitely not on the jack flag.
I oppose having a direct representation of Wales on the Union Flag, as there is no visually appealing way to do so (with either the Red Dragon or St David’s Cross). However, I do support representing Wales on the Royal Coat of Arms by replacing the bottom-right quadrant with the arms of Prince Llywelyn the Great.
@@Knappa22 technically not the same Monarchy that we have today.
I believe that it was the Plantagenets who wiped out Llwelyn and his family.
You can't lay the blame on the House of Windsor who are their 4th successors.
I've seen some pleasant ways on ways to add Welsh representation on the UJ with the St. David's Cross by replacing England's red cross with the yellow cross instead and it looks somewhat nice
That should be a no brainer given the population of Wales is much greater than that of Northern Ireland which gets its own representation - ironically based on Irish Nationalism.
The dragon looks at his finest standing alone emblazoned against the green and white.
I see no reference here to the white cross of Cornwall which I thought also was incorporated into the Union Flag.
I have actually wondered about this for YEARS! Thank you for providing an answer!
You're welcome!
I think Wales is fascinating. I learn welsh as my third language (I am german) and I am loving it. Wish to visit this land one day for myself.
Where or how do you learn Welsh in Germany? Do learn it online with apps?
@@schlawyn3r418 yeah
@@schlawyn3r418 well done
Well done. I lived there for a while, and father born on Gower Peninsula . Language is ancient and difficult to master. So good for you.
I’m a Welshman learning German as my third language hahaha
Great video as always! 2:13 had me in tears! I love how your videos incorporate comedy into incredible teaching.
Haha, thank you so much!
Agreed. Brilliant banter lol
God praise the algorithm. What an excellent video. As an Englishman who sadly only studied in Wales, this is an amazing video
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it and I’m glad you enjoyed!
Whats wrong with Wales?
Jk lol
Yes the algorithm blessed us with this video.
@@CambrianChronicles can you speak Welsh
Wyt ti galli siarad cymraeg?
Great video. Having the quick sunmary at the end is honestly so good. Thanks.
What is a Sunmary
I'd love to see a more in depth history of Welsh flags and crests, as I know the current flag, although only adopted in the 50s, was designed much earlier (according to Wikipedia 1807), and I've heard (though I'm not a historian so I can't verify) that a very similar design was used in the Tudor period on navy vessels. But as well the history of the many dragon crests would be interesting too.
The red dragon flag does originate with the tudors, as Henry VII allegedly carried a red dragon banner into battle, and the white and green are the house colours of the tudors.
I would be cautious on Wikipedia's claims though, the quality of Welsh history articles on there are typically very very poor, which I've complained about a few times on here before
@@CambrianChronicles ah good to know! Thanks!
Honestly, the Union Jack is a beautiful flag and i think it's a miracle they managed to merge 3 flags together
If we put the Welsh dragon on the flag it would be sp awesome that it would overshadow the rest of the flag!
Thats why it's not on there, it's just to god damn cool!
I've never thought of that but that's a really good point Like imagine trying to merge the US, Canada and Mexican flags or Norway, Finland and Sweden into their own flags
Union Jack looks like shit you’ve got no taste
Yeah its a real fuckin' miracle they managed to merge three crosses together. I mean, one of them had a blue background!!!! Near impossible task there
@@uckbritley1305 All of them overlap you nob what are you trying to prove by being sarcastic here, its a tough task, it only seems logical because you're used to the final product.
Diolch for another excellent video! Now I'm looking forward to a video about the origins of the Draig Goch flag... And one on the Kingdom of Powys, too
The Red Dragon of Cadwaladr was taken up as a symbol of the Britons to at least the 7th century, probably dates back earlier to the Roman times, so by far the oldest symbol, at least 600 years before England adopted the cross of St George in the 14th century (prior to that it had been St Edmund).The Green and White background was the symbol of the Tudor family (Henry Tudor became Henry VII in 1485).). The patron saint of Wales is St David, whose flag is a yellow cross on a black background.
Funnily enough St George is associated with dragon slaying so it kinda makes sense that there's no dragon on a flag with his cross.
@@RubyDoobieScoo well, it wasn’t a Welsh Dragon but one from Asia minor, brah!
Glad you countered the modern misconception of king>prince. It's long been much murkier than that, and for much of history king and prince were also used interchangeably, by the same people.
Yo, this taught me a lot and also this is kind of wanting me to know more. I’m definitely subbed for this, thanks!
Thank you! I’m really glad you enjoyed
"Named after his K/D ratio"
Haha, was not expecting that.
I like the flags the way they are The Union Jack is a piece of iconic beauty and a Wales flag it's just awesome by itself
I knew about the incorporation of Wales into the Kingdom of England being a factor in omitting Wales from the Union Jack. Now, I know why Wales is not on the Union Jack: not only the union of Wales with England, but also how the locals are satisfied with having their own flag!
Also, I learned a bit more about 16th-century local government in Wales. Thanks for making this video!
oh my, went to click off after liking the video then saw this channel only has 570 subscribers and yet is producing videos of this quality fair play mate
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that
I've always loved the Union Jack. Pretty striking among national flags. It really grabs you. Maybe comparable (in visual impact, not political implication) to the Japanese Rising Sun or even some of the Jolly Roger flags. Nonetheless, a red dragon would look pretty badass.
Im really sorry for being "that guy" but its only the union jack when at sea its actually the union flag it is relaxed now and we dont actually call it that anymore however like many laws in our nation (like the law where all boys over the age of 12 should be trained in the longbow this is still a law but yet again no one knows about it and its never enforced) its never been offically changed
@@ashleytaylor7621Technically it's called the Union Jack when flying from the Jack mast of one of HM's ships, which includes RN land bases as they are classified and treated as ships. So the Union Jack doesn't have to be (physically) flown at sea...
Pretty shit flag actually. No dragon for a start
Also, "I've always loved the union jack"? 🤢 BOAK
@@8bitghostnuts It's called patriotism
Good to see a vid on this channel get a million views!
Thank you!
Great videos, you need to make more
This is a fantastic video! Thank you for taking the time to put it together :)
Good, informative, well presented with a touch of humour… which I always love Thank you so much
Thank you so much for watching!
@@CambrianChronicles Many comrades of Welsh descent will always be remembered from my time in the Airborne , 1962 - '77.
Thank you for this clear and concise video. The research and the editing could not have been easy. Well done! BTW, 1959: coolest flag ever!
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that!
As an Englishman, I love our Welsh and Scottish neighbours (as well as our Northern Irish brothers and sisters) 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴
So do I, though I can never figure out why they want to have anything to do with us.
@@archvaldor Maybe taking there country has a little to do with it.
@@XLEECHIX even though England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are part of the UK, each country within the union has it's own parliament and some levels of autonomy within their borders
@@ShuuuuutUp you're nice aren't ya
@@oliversherman2414 just honest mate
A very informative channel.Thank you!
You have a new subscriber!
The only Welsh history I had at school was the Industrial Revolution and The Rebecca Rioters.
I think more should be taught about the historical development of the different regions of the UK.
Us Brits would gain a much better understanding and hopefully appreciation of our complex country.
Regarding Welsh representation on the Union Flag, it would be difficult incorporating the flag of St. David.
A small dragon could be placed in the centre of the red cross with a whitened background.
After all, the other two crosses are not intact and the colour scheme would not be spoiled.😉
Thank you, I’m really glad you enjoyed! And I agree, the UK (and general British history discussion) could really benefit from a much wider scope
Different nations, not regions. England, Wales and Scotland are all countries in their own right.
Please don't diminish any of them as merely regions. The UK is the artificial construct here.
@@danwilliams7423 I was using the word "region" to represent all various areas throughout the UK including those within the separate countries and the province of Northern Ireland.
I am Welsh and have a clear understanding of the different national identities that exist within the UK, although I can appreciate someone unaware of this fact could misconstrue my usage of the word "region".
I can assure you I was using it in its literal sense and not as a misinterpretation of the present national makeup of the UK.🤗
Northern Ireland is not a province, it is part of the Irish province of Ulster.
Thank you for another fantastic video!! It'll be interesting to see if anything changes with the union jack as the political landscape of the Union changes. I.e. will Westminster suddenly call for Welsh representation on the flag if Scotland leaves to try and get Wales to stay? Super interesting video!
Thank you! It’s definitely an interesting concept, who knows how it might change in the future, but I’d say your idea is definitely a possibility
brother leave thsi channel i know you from the rare feesh market you scammed me of five breed s of rare feesh
And what would the country be called?
The Arse end?
Not really much chance of Wales leaving the Union. Plaid Cymru support (our equivalent of the SNP) shows that fairly clearly. PC has never called for a referendum for Welsh Independence because they know it would lose, especially now that they have lost a significant amount of their support with Devolution.
People should take a look at the Welsh Devolution referendum by the way, it was close, as in really, really close. Less than a percent point close. Welsh Devolution made it through in Wales by the literal skin of its teeth. That was the height of PC's power, a significant proportion of their voter base did not want to leave the Union, they wanted some form of self determination in Wales, and with Devolution they got what they wanted. PC's support tailed off fairly rapidly after that to the point it was below 20% last time I looked.
I was just thinking the same. Good job I checked to see whether someone had beaten me to it!
I have really enjoyed these videos on Wales. It wasn't until I was in Army and spent time in what was then West Germany and had a few buddies in the British Army who told me my surname was Welch. I never knew. A few years later some cousins did a genealogy search which seemed to confirm it. But I have to be honest and say that I have a hard time trying to pronounce these words. Did the Welsh ever hear about using Vowels once in a while?😅😅 This is a great video and have enjoyed them all. Keep up the great work. Even if I can't pronounce any of the words.
Welsh has plenty of vowels...it's just that the language was shoehorned into the Latin alphabet, unlike normal Hebrew which _is_ written without vowels (unless an obscure pronunciation when the vowel pointings are inserted into the consonants).
@@cigmorfil4101 I was being sarcastic
A somewhat similar scenario was when the royal house in France switched to the Bourbon. The first king had been king of Navarre which was a kingdom to the south that straddled the Pyrenees. He inherited the French throne. As of that moment, the Bourbon kings were known as King of France and Navarre. In time, the Navarre part was dropped and Navarre was absorbed into France.
Union jack with wales ideas
-bottom half has green instead of blue
-middle has a dragon (but then it's a centerpiece and Wales isn't the most important part of the UK, definitely the coolest history though)
-small dragon at the end of the far left red line (not a huge change, and Wales is in the bottom left corner of England)
-Write Llanfairpwllgwyngogerychwryndrobwllantysiliogogogoch on the flag
I’ve seen the idea of the bottom half with green instead of blue before, and personally I don’t like it but it is an interesting idea.
Adding a dragon to the flag would be pretty cool looking but as you said it may ironically end up overshadowing the other 3 countries
@@CambrianChronicles what about adding Llanfairpwllgwyngogerychwryndrobwllantysiliogogogoch?
@@CR1MSONACE Printing it directly on and over the Union Jack might create the most unique flag of all time!
@@CambrianChronicles The uniLlanfairpwllgwyngogerychwryndrobwllantysiliogogogochonjack
Put little red dragons running all over all red stripes on the flag 🤣🤣🤣
I saw someone designed a new flag for the Anglosphere. They had emblems in different places for the countries and "included" Wales by using a White Dragon on a Red Background... quite the mix-up (That represents the Anglo-Saxon settlers not the Welsh fyi).
I knew about England conquering Wales but I had no idea the Welsh flag was so recent! Hard to include the Welsh flag when they didn't have one!
I’m Welsh. We have our own flag which is one of the most distinctive flags on the planet. Our own flag makes us unique. By not being on the union jack strengthens the fact that we are unique. I don’t want a dragon or any representation on the union jack. I personally think we don’t need it. If we didn’t have the Welsh flag today then I would be singing a different tune.
Agree We Are Happy As We Are Leave Our Flag Alone
Agreed, who the hell wants representation on the 'butchers apron'
@@TheHovel Yet geneticists have and are able to point out groups in Wales that are different to areas of the UK that contain no British?
@@TheHovel Even Ancestry can tell which area your genes are mostly found.
@@MisterBurtonshaw You either buy into their marketing or you don't, I guess.
Please keep doing these videos, i am welsh and ive never know so much about Wales before! These are great
Last weekend, I was at an event where a Welsh person told me, "Wales is a province of England." Cambrian Chronicles said "country & dominion". I have lived in Canada all my life; I'm pretty confident that "country & dominion" does not equal province because provinces are the regions in the country & dominion. Maybe (some?) Welsh people are confused?
(Note: there was no reason for him to tell me this, it wasn't a cultural event or cultural venue or anything related specifically to culture.)
Unfortunately some people are just super uninformed, Wales has never been designated as a "province" for the exact reasons as you said. The Tudors named it as a country and a dominion, and it was also informally (and most commonly) referred to as a/the "principality" (despite the principality being abolished in 1536).
@@CambrianChronicles A video on the whole Principality nonsense would be helpful - could just link to it every time I encounter an idiot on Twitter 😂Is it correct that the whole of Cymru was never a Principality anyway, only part of it? Now if only that building society and stadium would change their names we could be done with it forever! 👍
I have often thought that the Ddraig Goch should feature on the Union flag. Perhaps not quite as big as the one shown on the thumbnail, but right there in the middle, with all the stripes surrounding it. It would be the coolest flag EVER!
0:48 Thank you. Minutes is my preferred measurement of time
Yankees will use everything but the metric system
Just found this channel, and I love it! Wales is the most interesting part of the UK to me, and I always was interested in Britain. Welsh culture is the oldest and language is super beautiful
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed, I agree that Wales is the most interesting but then again I might be a bit biased!
How can Welsh culture be older than the rest of Britain? Wales is a pretty new creation, research the Brythonic peoples who occupied the western part of mainland Britain.
@@andymoore9977 Welsh language and culture is wayyyyy older than English...The Welsh are the original Britons
@@RS__7 Who mentioned English? Please try and read other folk's post more carefully.
@@RS__7 You ignore Cornwall and fall into the false idea that Wales somehow managed to never be a part of the Roman Empire. In reality there is no difference between the people of any of the three countries of England, Scotland and Wales as proved by recent DNA studies. Even West Wales was part of both the Roman Empire and the later Norman and previous Saxon settlement.
I have seen other versions of "Welsh" Union Jacks that don't include the Dragon. One replaced the blue in the lower field with green and as a result looked really goofy. The others I've seen incorporate the Cross of St. David to stick with the theme and look ... eye-searing, St. David's Gold on Black doesn't combine well with reds and blues.
I grew up across the pond in upstate NY. I remember seeing that red dragon on the sides of the barns. There was also an old Welch church built in the late 1700s that had that dragon on it. Sadly, none of my Welch friends could tell me anything about Wales. They seemed to have forgotten their own history.
For whatever reason, most youtubers can't grasp the concepts of the Kingdom of Ireland, the Kingdom of GB, and the flag difference between the Kingdom of GB and the UK. Great to see you've bucked the trend!
CZcamsrs, usually see the world through US centred eyes. The British Isles is a geographical description which includes all of Ireland and the Isle of Man. The United Kingdom is a political entity which includes 6 counties of Northern Island, the Kingdoms of Scotland and England, the Principality of Wales, but the Isle of Man and the Channel Isles are "posessions" of the UK. Regards from Australia.
@@michaelhalsall5684 FORMER countries...get it right
@@michaelhalsall5684 The British Isles is an offensive term. Nothing in Ireland is British.
Historical videos of my country Wales are so hard to come by on CZcams, please make more
I will!
There’s a few floating around if you know where to look.
Thank you for making this film - I had long wondered about this. I have believed for some time that the dragon should be on the Union Flag somewhere or else it's not fully representative of the whole country. Perhaps in due course we will have independence for Scotland and Wales anyway?
Its about size and history. The major events and struggles in the British Isles was between Scotland and England. It was all about uniting the kingdoms of Scotland and England that created Britain.
The Union flag is such an iconic and recognisable symbol, it would be insanity to change it now.
and at the end of the day Scotland took over England in 1603 we English are still muttering about this!!!
As a Welshman I am not sure about inclusion on the Union Jack. The Cross of St David would just make a good looking flag look plain ugly. You cannot really put Yddraig Goch central on the Union Jack because like it or not England *is* the primary Nation of the UK, it represents some 75% of our population. Which really only leaves placing it in a quarter, which unbalances the whole thing. On the whole I am in the leave well enough alone camp here. Despite my frequent jokes to English friends that slapping a bloody great red dragon right in the centre of the flag would make it look better because dragons make *everything* look better!
When it comes to representation on the Royal Coat of Arms however, well that is a different matter entirely, and I am all for that. Whether Her Majesty will do it is arguable, but there is certainly precedence for an incoming Monarch to make changes to the Royal Coat of Arms.
As an Englishman, I think your flag is beautiful, and I would love to have such a wonderful flag. Of course it should be up to Welsh people whether the dragon should be on the union flag and/or coat of arms, but the dragon is such a bold symbol, I wonder if we would do him a disservice not leaving him to stand proudly on the green land that is Wales.
I'm English.. I totally agree, the Welsh dragon should be on the Royal coat of arms 👍🏴❤🏴 🇬🇧
Speaking as an Englishman, I say put the red dragon front and centre. It'd give the Union flag a 100% awesomeness upgrade!
I agree with that
'primary nation' is the whole problem here imo
I wouldn't want a change to the Union flag, personally I think it's the best flag in the world... though the precise geometry of the Nepalese flag is also incredible. However, one of the English segments of the Royal coat of arms should definitely be a red dragon, it just makes sense. I also think the Welsh flag is by far the best flag of the 4 nations... and I'm English.
It just stands out so much. And it's more of a scene. The white is the skies, the green is our land, and well, there's a dragon walking on it. It's like the entirety of wales saw the other countries' flags and said "lets get creative"
estonia flag better
@@korenaya Subjective, i personally love the Red Dragon and it's definetly one of the best flags in my opinion
I can hear my maternal grandmother applauding you. She was a Cardiff lass.
Nicely done
American here, so I don't have a proper say in what should or shouldn't happen, but some proposals:
1) Change the Coat of Arms.
As some other commenters have mentioned, replacing either the lion or the unicorn would be unfair to them, so having the lion and unicorn on the sides as they are and the Welsh dragon on top or underneath, or the lion on top and the dragon and unicorn on the sides, would be a fair compromise. That way, everyone is included without diminishing anyone else. Alternatively, replacing one of the English portions on the shield bit, as you alluded to, would also work, although perhaps both would be neat.
2) Change the Union Jack.
As cool as the Red Dragon is, I don't think it would mesh well with the Jack as it currently stands. Instead, you could incorporate Wales by changing the bottom half of the Jack (specifically, the blue portion of the bottom half). You could either make it blue on top and green on bottom, in reference to the Welsh national flag, or blue on top and black on bottom, in reference to the Cross of St David, which is probably second place in terms of Welsh-associated flags. Including a yellow stripe for the cross itself would also be interesting, but again, the goal is ideally to not make the new Jack overly different from the current version if you want to get majority support from the public.
Super informative, thanks!
Croeso!
As a Scottish person, I say just add a green stripe. The colours of wales are a green ribbon, a white ribbon and a red dragon. So add a green strip to the X of the union flag, as red, white and blue are already there for Scotland, England and Ireland.
I'm british btw iv been to Scotland before its rly rly cool
Damn Scot you ruined Scotland
*northern Ireland
@@lukesalvidge118 No Ireland. The Union Flag was updated when all of Irelnad was part of the UK (That second red cross) and it was never changed when the south left.
@@Twiska yes but it no longer represents the south, only the north.
congrats on 100k
Thank you very much! I managed to get the screenshot of the number at 5:40 AM so I'm very tired now haha, gonna make a thank you post later
"The red dragon of Cadwaladr" what an interesting rabbit hole that turned out to be 😂
Great direct video as always, hope you keep growing.
Thank you!
Such an underrated youtuber
Thank you, I appreciate that
It's probably been said but I was taught, actually humiliatingly shouted at in school that it is not the Union Jack but the Union Flag with the Jack part merely being part of the flag pole. Effectively, the Jack exists without the flag and would be the Jack whatever flag hangs there.
Likewise, the Union flag is always that whether it is hung or not.
Of course, there could be a bloke called Jack who was our is in a union and he may be known as Union Jack, who knows. Answers on a postcard
I've heard the same etymology, but think these days most people accept Union Jack. Especially because "Union Flag" is too ambiguous - which Union? Whereas Jack isn't a term used in the context of a flag these days (at least rarely), so it's an easier name to recognise and identify.
Jack flags for flying on jack staffs are not always the same as the 'big' flag that would fly on land on a flag-pole. Jack from the Union may of course have brought his Union Jack flag-pole with him, but then you need the name for a portable flag-pole flag, which I think becomes an argument of Banner and Standard, if anyone has settled on a Standard Banner yet....
The Dragon on the bow of HMS Dragon is pretty cool. It looks like the Welsh Dragon surfing to me.
"And theres many watching this who don't want Wales to be on the Union jack"
This is a man who knows his audience! :D
First time coming across your channel/content - I look forward to the rest! [Subbed]
Cariad fawr o Cymru De x
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it!
I love and respect both flags but I think the dragon would be an excellent addition to the Union flag.
Also, thank you for the great video
Thank you for watching, I’m glad you enjoyed!
Horizontal/Vertical...Red on White - England, (St. George). Blue on White - N. Ireland. (St. Patrick).
Angled/Saltire. White on Blue-Scotland. (St Andrew) and....,...Red on White - Wales. (St David.)
The Red Dragon on a Green Field is the "War Banner", not the National Flag. I know a lot of Welsh ppl are going to disagree, but they are welcome to discuss Early Medieval Saints.
Named after his k/d ration, damn, got me there haha, insta subbed
Haha thank you!
I would argue though that if the Welsh flag was ever incorporated into the Union Flag, it would look pretty ugly.
I mean the dragon would stand out way too much and probably would be viewed as the symbol of the UK and not as Wales being represented.
Better symbol than a boring old lion, which is overrepresented everywhere and is just emblematic of the Normans. Before it was a yellow or white dragon for England iirc.
@@iggyzeta9755 I don't entirely disagree with that. I am just saying that if they were to add the welsh dragon to the Union Flag it would stick out like a sore thumb.
But any symbol would also cause that problem anyways, because the Union Flag is perfect as it is.
I'm English, saw a design once of the union flag with the Welsh Dragon in the centre. I thought it looked the bollocks, I'd advocate for it.
Maybe you saw the representation of a 'suggested/proposed' Union Jack or Union Flag on Wikipedia (Flag of the United Kingdom) ? It's a small Dragon in the centre of the crosses and doesn't look too imposing or incorrect, I quite like it !
@@stewedfishproductions7959 Yeah that's the one 👍
Thank you for this interesting video. I feel offended that Wales is not represented. Especially now, at a time when we are trying to strengthen our Union one would think that it would be an obvious gesture. I was fascinated by your clear explanations as to why Wales is NOT represented. However, I feel the issue of English arrogance was minimised. As a child, there were many bigoted jokes about Irish, Welsh and Scottish in England. All but the Welsh ones seem to have gone away. Why don`t we respect the Welsh more?
Love this explanation of the gragon hiding...
I remember asking this at school, and my teacher told Wales (with a completely straight face) that was represented by the white bits.
As a Welsh person im glad i found this channel
Thank you!
Interesting video. One thing to note though is that the United Kingdom's flag is incorrectly called the Union Jack. It should be called the Union Flag. Correctly it is only called a Jack when flown on the jack staff on a Royal Navy ship. People who've served in the armed forces would know this just as they also know that it is not a symmetrical flag. It's incredible really that so many British citizens can't get the name of the flag correct or even know which way round to fly it.
For clarification of the flag, the dragon is the Red Dragon of Cadwallader. And the white and green are not the sky and ground but are from the Henry Tudor colours/royal standard.
When people say wales was never a country I always point to those 3 figures and said they were named king/prince of all of Wales at one point. So it did exist and only doesn’t know for the English wanted eliminate the culture due to several loses and welsh rebellions occurring to where they are better off not giving Welsh people a rally cry.
True, and as I said in my video there’s a very long legal precedent for Wales being called a country (with laws mentioning it as the ‘Country of Wales’ from 1284 to 1830), not to mention that the UK government still currently calls it a country!
@@welshman8954 Language is not a proof of origin rather a result of local factors. Realise that at one time current North West England shared its Language with North Wales whose language is different to South Wales and Cornwall but all of same origin. The word Lon meaning Lane is common in former East Lancashire and many other specific Welsh traditions used to exist. For example women would still be known by their maiden name which I found confusing with relations such as my grandmother when young.
I always thought it were French speaking Norman's that wanted to rule the whole island. In the name of the English granted but they were invaders to the English too.
Also Powys used to be a kingdom and it was way bigger stretching into what is now the English Midlands. As a Midlander this fascinates me and I am kinda proud of my Welsh friends and family. I wouldn't want to go anywhere I wasn't welcome though.
@@welshman8954 "the English are saxon and danish" this is simply not true. The Vikings, Anglo-Saxons and subsequent invaders/settlers had a much smaller impact on the overall genetic makeup of the people of the British Isles than a lot of people think. It wasn't like they genocided and/or supplanted the existing population. In reality, the English share much of the same ancestry as everybody else in the British isles; the biggest differences were cultural (adoption of anglo-saxon laws, language, etc) and that's the reason why England is seen as distinct from the rest of the UK nations.
The real history of these islands is far more complex and intriguing. Fun fact: If you're from South Wales you are more different, genetically speaking, to people from North Wales than the English and Scots are to each other. There is no one group of people who can say they are the "original Britons"
I as an Englishman would welcome the Welsh emblem it would be perfect, especially after removing the Scottish blue and white. I never understood why the Welsh wasnt represented in the union flag. very sad
Indeed i would love to see my country's flag🏴 removed of the current flag and the dissolution of the UK. There wud be no union jack and England and English people wud have to use their own flag 🏴 instead of hijacking the Union flag as their own. As well as not refer to Britain or the UK as England. I do notice particularly in sport they tend to use their own flag these days. You will never get a union jack at a Scottish national sport. Some football clubs supporters in Scotland do use the union jack but they identify as being British not Scottish. I am Scottish not British therefore would never display a UJ. My country's flag is 🏴🏴🏴 and the Lion Rampart not the UJ. I think the welsh flag is very nice indeed and although officially adopted as the flag of Wales in 1959 it has historical credibility as the Welsh flag being used by the then independence Princes of Wales before Wales was annexed into England by that horrible vicious Edward I in 1284 and then legally incorporated into the kingdom of England by Henry 8th in 1534. It, was the banner and emblem of the Welsh Henry Tudor who became king of England, first of the Tudor monarchs and to my knowledge (?) to actually visit Wales. The Tudors were Welsh. England's last English king was Richard III. In 1603 the Scottish Stewarts /Stuarts took over and were the family who brough about the Union of 1707 . Like the Tudi before them they neglected and forgot about their ancient Kingdom of Scotland where they had ruled for 336 (343 in total counting the 7 years as Great Britain years) and only 104 in England. Indeed the Stewarts /Stuarts are the longest ruling Dynasty in the British Isles producing 15 monarchs in direct succession. This included 2 King Roberts, II and III, 7 James. 2 Charles, I and II 2 Queen Mary's I and II, William II /III and Queen Anne who was the last monarch of both Scotland and England and the first if Great Britain in 1707
The
Totally agree, while your at it you can give all the financial benefits back, Scotland is so hard done too especially if you compare how Wales is treated. Time to build the wall, to keep the likes of wee Jimmy cranky and Hezbollah Patriots out.
This is an excellent well researched video. As a Welsh boy growing up in Swansea in thev1970s and 80s, I wondered why there was :
1 an English/german man with the title " Prince of Wales"
2. Why we were not on the monarch's court of Arms.
3. Why we were not part of the union flag.
4. Why the fuck when I studied O level History in 1983-4, why it was all about England, with 4 weeks devoted to Welsh history.
Ironically, Wales was the first industrialised nation on earth, not England, yet those fuckers take the credit.
Irrespective of this, I have always felt Welsh to my core. My soul is completely Welsh. Culturally Wales has a unique distinctive quality which has never left me, even though ive now been in England most of my adult life.
I actually sent a request to Mark Drakeford (first minister of Wales) to include Wales in Union Jack...
It was a long wait, but Wales ended up with the coolest flag on the planet. I'm glad to see the red dragon owning the field.
I agree!
Well Scotland is leaving the Union anyways, hence UK must adapt a new flag and any Welsh representation must be added as well
Wales will be leaving too after Scotland, we just wish Scotland would get on with it and show us how it's done.
0:31 I’ll say it. The dragon on top of the Union Jack looks AWESOME!
I'm french so totally neutral, and I think that putting the dragon would be fair but maybe a bit smaller than what you've showed. Because it's really eyes catching, but there are so many ways to include it, if welsh ppl want so of course... Nice vid tough love to the "rosebeefs"
Welsh grandfather with both parents being Welsh married my grandmother from Montreal who the French king sent to address gender imbalance.
“Well about 389 million minutes ago” lmao
Reworking the simple union jack to have the more different design style and format of the Welsh flag is quite difficult since the union jack is just a composition of 2 bisecting lines on a solid colour background with different colours, hence the good style and look it has overall; as opposed to the Welsh design of a bicolour with a complex design in the middle. The best design I can think up on a whim is a union jack with some of the blue background replaced with green triangles, but that's still very iffy even from my end.
Welsh inclusion on the coat of arms is something very viable, doable, and simple, so that should be very much considered.
Just make the bottom half of blue parts green.
If you redesign it for the inclusion of Wales you also have to remove the St. Patrick's cross (X) of "Ireland" as that "Kingdom" no longer exists and Northern Ireland uses a similar design to the St George's cross.
Wales is the only one with green on its flag. I say maybe add thin green diagonal stripes in the white spaces right next to the thin red ones. Seems like a good elegant design choice, neatly fitting the existing design (and not breaking the pattern like a big attention-grabbing dragon would)
Ofc Y Ddraig Goch, is not the only flag of Wales, though it is currently the main and official one, there is also the Flag of St David/Dewi Sant, A yellow Cross on a black field.
It is telling that the French have always fully admitted the existence of the "Country of Wales": In French, Wales is not called "Galles" but "Le Pays de Galles".