The Internet's Flag that Doesn't Exist
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- čas přidán 21. 05. 2024
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In recent years, Wikipedia has frequently picked up some controversy for being less than reliable. Last time, I showed you how one editor in a niche corner of online Welsh history could completely distort reality, and create a king who didn't exist.
This time, however, is different. This time, the history of Wales has not just been morphed by a lone editor, but by a series of historical mistakes spanning over 3 centuries.
Many online articles and websites have continually perpetuated this myth, but none of them are at fault for it's creation.
Today I am covering the story of how one man rewrote 1000 years of history.
Chapters:
0:00 - Part 1: Wikipedia
1:26 - The Welsh Dragon
4:35 - Cadwaladr’s Dragon
10:02 - British Goblins
13:13 - Part 2: Henry VII
16:20 - Cadwallader, Cadwalladar
20:37 - Henry Tudor, and Cadwalider
24:08 - Y Ddraig Goch
26:50 - The Tudors, Welsh History, and Cadwaladr
Sources:
Bartrum, P.C. (1993). A Welsh Classical Dictionary : People in History and Legend up to about A.D. 1000. The National Library of Wales, pp.90-91, 184-185.
Charles-Edwards, T.M. (2013). Wales and the Britons, 350-1064. Oxford: OUP, pp.355-356.
Crampin, M. (2019). King Arthur, King Tewdrig and King Cadwaladr. [online] Gwydr Lliw yng Nghymru. Available at: stainedglass.llgc.org.uk/obje... [Accessed 18 Nov. 2023].
Davies, J. (2007). A History of Wales. London: Penguin, pp.61, 136-137, 211-214.
Elton, G.R. (1985). King Henry VII. Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, pp.131-145.
Jones, J.G. (1998). The Welsh gentry and the image of the ‘Cambro-Briton’, c.1603-25. Welsh History Review, 19(4), pp.615-655.
Llywelyn, M.G. (2017). Y Ddraig yn Nychymyg a Llenyddiaeth y Cymry c.600 - c.1500. MPhil Prifysgol. pp.8-93.
Loach, J. (1994). The Function of Ceremonial in the Reign of Henry VIII. Past & Present - Oxford University Press, (142), p.57.
Higham, N.J. (2018). King Arthur: The Making of the Legend. Yale University Press, p.89.
Maund, K. (2006). The Welsh Kings. 3rd ed. The History Press Ltd, p.37.
Reiss, E. (1968). Welshmen and the Hundred Years’ War. Welsh History Review, 4(2), pp.98-100.
Woolf, D. (1992). The Power of the Past: History, Ritual and Political Authority in Early Modern England. London and New York: Routledge, pp.1-19.
Primary sources:
Location of online, Cadwaladr references shown in video (please do not act in a negative manner towards anyone listed. This is a criticism of poor sourcing, not of the websites themselves):
www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s...
www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-4...
www.flaginstitute.org/wp/flag...
Wales.com's article is excellent, asides from the point on the dragon being used in the 5th century.
www.wales.com/about/why-there...
The Royal mint is correct in noting the dragon is from the 6th century, but the claim that it was sometimes known as Cadwaladr's dragon at this time is incorrect.
www.royalmint.com/discover/uk...
The Encyclopedia Britannica simply lists the wrong Cadwaladr here, and is by far the most accurate out of the articles shown.
www.britannica.com/topic/flag...
Historical references to Cadwaladr's dragon (1718-1909).
Williams, B.C.L. (1909). The Union of England and Wales. Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion, p.70.
An Essay on the Ancient and Modern Use of Armories (1718)
Hall's Chronicle (1548)
Music courtesy of the CZcams Audio Library:
Blacksmith - Godmode
Namaste, Atlantis, and Deep Space, by Audionautix are all licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 licence. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Artist: audionautix.com/
CGI Snake by Chris Zabriskie is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 licence. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Source: chriszabriskie.com/divider/
Artist: chriszabriskie.com/
Strange Stuff - Matt Harris
Stranger Danger - Francis Preve
Lands Unknown - Futuremono
Fortress Europe - Dan Bodan
Lullabye - Density & Time
Images of, and from:
Sant Cadwaladr - Llywelyn2000, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/... , via Wikimedia Commons.
Y Ddraig Goch - Sodacan, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/... , via Wikimedia Commons
Welsh flag - Tobias Jakobs, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
Henry VII coat of arms - Sodacan, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons
all other images are public domain, via the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, the National Library of Wales, the Yale Center for British Art, and the British Library
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Thanks for watching everyone, it's always very much appreciated. The notes for this video had been in the works for about 3 months, so I really hope it's coherent in the end.
Edit: In the three days since I've uploaded this, two commenters have very kindly shared two sources that agree with the notion that "Cadwaladr's dragon" is an anachronistic term: 'The 'British History' in early Stuart propaganda' by Sydney Anglo in 1961, and 'A history of the red dragon' by Carl Lofmark in 1995.
Neither source, from what I've seen or been told, make a suggestion to where the name has come from though, so so far I am still the first to suggest a possible origin.
Thank you again to those who have shared these sources, and thanks for watching
Not just Goblins BRITISH Goblins! Why are they RED?
Tegrity farms remembers!
The fiery red draco-dragon came from the dragon standards of Rome, which had heads of bronze held up on a pole, with a red tail made of cloth.
And if you look in the Old Testament, you will find that Moses had exactly the same standards - a fiery brass serpent held up on a pole. The exact nature of this symbolism is not fully explained in the Torah, but it held a protective force over the army.
T.
Love your videos, great job on this one aswell.
@@tatelyle1 ... If you do an image search for "roman draco dragon symbols", you will see many modern reconstructions of these fiery dragons.
.
Shoutout those two commenters
When you said "don't send hate to anyone mentioned" I wondered how much hate could realistically be sent to Alexander Nisbet
Only through necromantic rituals at this point!
To be honest I wasn't sure to include that or not, but I was a bit concerned, since this is the internet, that someone was going to get unreasonably pissed at some wikipedia editor, or some random article author from 15 years ago.
After spending two years on here, I've seen enough people get unreasonably upset over the slightest stuff
Personally, I plan on holding a grudge against him to the end of my days.
@@CambrianChroniclesI get reasonably and stupidly pissed, but Mrs C always ensures that it only occurs at Clabby Towers...slainte...😅😅😅..E...
Time traveling DeLorean?
Luckily Wikipedia states his exact burial site is lost (I know quoting Wikipedia is highly ironic here).
if we can't trust British Goblins then who can we trust? 😞
Never expected to see you here😂🎉
I consult British Goblins for all my decisions, which may explain why I'm £98 million in debt
@@CambrianChroniclesthank goodness...it's not just me then....😅😅😅...E..
@@CambrianChroniclesthey do love their debt based financial system.
Japanese Goblins, however, are trustworthy.
Fun Fact: When writing episodes of the show "Ben 10", the writers can't keep their expansive lore straight and consistent so they consulted the fan-made wiki. Unfortunately, some things written on the wiki is completely made up and has no source. As a result of the writers reading the wiki, these made up things made it onto the show itself and becomes canon. And now, the Ben 10 wiki has a page titled "Longstanding Misinformation" which lists all the incorrect information that entered the show and became canon.
Oh wow, I just gave the page a look, that's hilarious how seemingly easily they can rewrite parts of the show
Consulting a fan-made wiki to decide your lore, let me say is terrible fan service that you should NEVER DO.
@@redcraft612 Exactly, we instead at our game studio have an internal wiki for this purpose.
@@YuriMomoiro That is actually very smart, I was going to also do that but no wiki software so far meets my requirements. I could develop one myself but I don't wanna do that and plain HTML is not that nice to look at plus I want infoboxes.
@@CambrianChronicles You might want to look at FNAF.
My man out here easily just made a full thesis paper on why the Red Dragon of Wales is mistakenly called the Red Dragon of Cadwaladr and just posted it on CZcams like its just a minor mistake lmao.
You can honestly make this into a research paper or case study and submit it for peer review. Who knows, it might actually inspire Wales to do a dedicated investigation of any historical figure or facts that has little to no sources and maybe someone out there has an actual thousand year old book or oral tradition that has been passed down to their family will finally come into light.
Thank you, I might actually give it a try to see if anyone is interested, at least if it can be peer reviewed someone may have an older source like you say
@@CambrianChroniclesseriously, several of your videos (this 1, the missing kingdom 1s ect) are paper level stuff, (topics, quality, research, sources ect), you could publish them for peer review, see if anyone else has better sources, see what accedemics think ect. You should do that.
Love the videos by the way.
@@CambrianChronicles oh, please, i hope you feel encouraged to do this!!! the value of the work you have done here is-i can’t even quantify it. phenomenal. this can and should go places.
+
@CambrianChronicles As someone who has had peer-reviewed studies published, I agree with what AcZe1188 and Hundreyacrewoods have said. You could turn all of this into a properly annotated peer-reviewed research paper, easily.
I didn't expect this to end as a piece of psychological horror
Neither did I, I dunno why he said all of that!
that was so disturbingly unsettling I’m honestly impressed
@@CambrianChronicles Why are you in my house? Oh, right, I clicked on the video.
Frankly I thought you were imbedding an ARG. Don't deny it, that will only strengthen my hypothesis. @@officaldungeons
was that an inside joke on this channel? i didn't get that part, not sure if i missed a very subtle segue or if it was a bit of random fun
My grand aunt worked her whole life on discovering and documenting Kurdish and pre-Madian Iranian history that was barely known at the time. Having all my teenage years growing up close to her and watching her work, Id never thought I would ever see another person with her sheer dedication to find the truth even for the most trivial things to put into her books. Your work sir, finally broke my expectations. She truly tried her best to honor her ancestors and not only find the truth, but to preserve their legacy for the future generations to come and you are doing the exact same thing.
Thank you, that's very kind, it sounds like your grand aunt was very dedicated, and that is very commendable, thank you for sharing
Where could i read your grand aunts publishings? I am kurdish myself, but was born and raised in germany. So i know little of my heritage (besides the things my parents told me😂)
You mean pre-median history? As in before the Median empire? If so, I may ask, did your Aunt think modern Kurds being related to ancient Medes? Would be great to know the opinion of someone so close to the research.
@@Diego-de6dq In old Persian, the Medes were called the Mada, and in Akkadian they were called the Madaya (which is essentially the exact same name). The Mede/Median spelling is ultimately from the Greek Medoi
@@niall_sanderson Yeah, wasn't sure of he meant that or Madan as in Maʻdān marsh Arabs. So had to make sure.
Honestly, as a history major, this channel has taught me more about investigating historical claims than any of my college classes. They have you do your own research on topics but they never go into actually checking where your sources got their information or how to really link it together to discover the origins of a claim.
Thank you, that's very kind!
That's so depressing. Education is going to the dogs.
I would think its one of those things that kind of disappear in the age of the internet taught by people who during which, preceded it. @@KrisHughes
Same here!
History major here and 80 thousand dept in loans. I refuse to pay now
Reminds me of Zhemao, a user editing Chinese wikipedia who basically invented details throughout hundreds of years of medieval Russian history and interwove them into established facts, muddying the waters for everyone reading her articles, but nobody could fact-check her for years because nobody else in that space was as passionate about the subject matter as she was.
But…why??
@@cam5816 Probably a god complex of sort. They want to feel right in contrast to actually being right. Just a guess though, not a conviction.
edit: The comment below me is crazy. Wouldn’t have thought that was the case💀
@@cam5816 from what i can remember, she was incredibly lonely and made up those articles just so that she could talk to the editors and such - apparently her articles was so good and in-depth, even if they weren't actually real, that after she admitted to it, lots of people wanted her to start writing novels
@@cam5816 Why did some random American teenager decide to write Scots wikipedia articles as broken English with no actual knowledge of the Scots language?
@@cam5816 Probably just fanfic/for fun. Some people like a story better than they like the truth of it, and don't see a problem with embellishing some details.
We need driven and inquisitive people like you in every field of history. We would recover so much knowledge.
Thank you, that's very kind
The amount of money I would pay to have someone cover the statelets of the HRE the way CC covers the Welsh kingdoms is a horrifyingly large number
Yep
@@Edmonton-of2ecYes!!!!
we need this kind of people in every academic field
I studied Byzantine history and it's kind of amazing how much cool stuff is going on in this part of the world that the eastern Romans summarized as "I dunno, some muddy savages fighting over dirt I guess? Their 2nd sons make good mercenaries though". People who only think about the classical Roman empire are missing out on so much cool stuff.
You gotta love that classic Roman arrogance.
fr though, they miss out on so much cool history, never even thought that the ottomans who fought in world war 1 were the same ones to end the roman empire before I knew about it
@@Joshua-fq9tm always been more of a decepticon fan myself
@hedgehog3180 China was the same thing as well. They believed themselves the center of the world. Which at the time was fair enough given their dominance, but does not excuse them for thinking themselves the only civilized people.
A lot of these barbarian groups would come and go over the span of a few decades and leave few records. It’s no wonder the Pechnegs and Cumans and Avars were all “Torkoi” in an age when you would have been a months-long journey and an interpreter away from asking them yourself. Like the video says much of history is just dudes writing down stuff they heard in a ten thousand year game of telephone 📞
Who needs a source when somebody else claims they had one?
I love how, as an American, I have become so interested in Welsh history solely from this channel. Great stuff!
Agreed! I never knew how obsessed I would become with Welsh history-such an active yet uncovered piece of time and place.
I'm glad to hear!
As an Irishman I can relate to our intrepid author...a long, long oral tradition exists on the Gaelic, Brythonic fringe...E...😊😊
Same, although I still can't look at a welsh word and even imagine how it is pronounced...
I've mentioned it before but history is amazing in that you can just keep finding new super interesting history in the most random of places. Ultimately the stories are all always interesting and gripping because they're stories about humans and the connection it gives you with the past is amazing.
It does seem like Welsh history is unique in that there is a recent increase in interest in it (by recent I mean in the last 100 years or so lol) but stuff like this really makes me worry about the internet's ability to accidentally rewrite history. Add to that AI summarizations of web pages that are not 100% accurate and we could really have problems with fake histories in the future.
We already have problems with falsified histories written on purpose…
My uncle once did a report on how the Boxer Rebellion was started not by Chinese peasants, but by a reporter in Denver who needed an article to publish in the paper one day, sparking an actual conflict
We have sources.
This youtuber has access to all these sources. So do you. AI won’t erase them. If anything, it will make them easier to access.
If you’re worried about whether or not anyone would make the effort, which you should be, *do something* by reminding everyone that it is their duty as a human being to check *everything* they repeat, just like this.
@@andrewreynolds4949 that itself is a falsified narrative of history. the boxer rebellion was sparked by german actions in Shandong, before the Denver-made hoax was invented
@@andrewreynolds4949wait so boxer rebellion because a reporter?
@@destro4157 Yes, they wrote an article describing Chinese gangs killing missionaries, and some nations responded by sending troops to stop this (even though it wasn't happening as described in the article), which caused Chinese groups to actually start fighting and harassing foreigners
I remember being told that Cadwalladar flew the red dragon in school, and that it might even have been Cadwallon’s or Cadfan’s symbol. Thank you for the diligent work.
Ah that's interesting, I haven't seen any connections to them!
@@CambrianChroniclesWith how Welsh names are written throughout the history of written records, the dragon might have been connected with anyone in history whose name start with Cad-/Cat-/Kad- etc.
Cadwalladar flew the red dragon in school? Surprised the teachers allowed him to do that
@@seanh0123 must've been a pretty big school. or a pretty small dragon. tbf if you knew a guy that had a dragon you might just let him fly on it out of pure respect.
You so funny :)
Hello, I am a Spanish-speaking CZcamsr, and I want to thank you for the video because I am dedicated to researching dragons, and something that has been asked of me a lot lately is to tell the whole story behind the flag of Wales, both from a mythological as well as a historical point of view. For all that, I appreciate the information you provided, I will take it into account the day I decide to dedicate a video to this red dragon.
PS: I felt very identified when you explained the different search methods you used XD
PS-PS: I love your channel
Thank you very much! Best of luck with your future video, I'd love to watch it when it's out!
This video reminded me of CPG Greys video about the Tiffany poem. Chasing sources through history can be a daunting endeavour.
Thank you, a few people said that on my last vid as well, I think historiography is a naturally daunting task
Welsh history is so interesting and yet very unknown outside of some key events
I agree, but I'm also hoping to change that!
To most people history in general is unknown outside of some key events
@@johnw574 I would go so far and doubt the "outside of key events" part. Most people can't even remember what happened last year and why it happened.
@@CambrianChroniclesmission accomplished...😅😅...E..
It's so 'unknown' because certain aggressive country to the right of it did everything it could to erase Wales and its people. There are still people alive today who were severely beaten as kids for daring to speak Welsh instead of English. Same storywith Scots and Irish. The sooner it's decolonized/broken apart into free nations, the better...
I dont even know why im addicted to this channel. Is it the thoroughly researched articles, the history that seems so mythical to me or the soothing voice of the narrator?
Either way every video is impeccable and impressively done.
Thank you very much, that's very kind!
Your video on the king who didn’t exist has made me obsessed with videos about Wikipedia article errors, but there’s so few that exist! I think most people wouldn’t be willing to put in the dedication and time needed for how in-depth your research is. I’m very impressed.
Thank you, they definitely take time, but a lot of errors can get corrected easily too, Wales is just a bit unlucky with it being more niche. This wasn't Wikipedia's fault either in fairness, it's much older than that
Frida made a video covering how one wiki specifically got taken over by fascists that is pretty interesting.
Actually Wikipedia itself keeps track of hoaxes in it, at least the most notorious ones.
Nobody on youtube even comes close to the scale and depth of your research, we love you CC
Thank you, that's very kind!
@@CambrianChronicles Cymru on top
Not to sure that he does as much research, but Trey the Explainer is another great history channel to check out if you like this one! He and CC are my favorite channels right now because you can tell they both have a passion for history and care what they’re talking about.
Trey the Explainer is one of my favourites, he definitely does more research than me!
The only comparable youtuber with such in-depth "rabbit-hole of historical research" videos I can think of is CGP Grey. His videos about the origin of the name Tiffany are a great example. As is his video about the race to win Staten Island.
23:11 I think the confusion may stem from the fact that Henry essentially retroactively associated the dragon with Cadwalladr. To Henry, the symbol references his ancestor because both are Welsh; the source doesn‘t say „Cadwalladr used this“ but it‘s easy to mistakenly infer this from the statement that the Dragon is a reference to him.
This is a bit like if someone in 2023 makes a Flag (or other merchandising) with Karl Marx next to a hammer and sickle. Some future observer may then wrongly conclude that Marx used this symbol-especially if the 2023 design becomes popular-even though he can‘t have done so because it dates from the Russian Revolution, several decades after Marx‘ death.
That's a good comparison, could definitely have just resulted from the Tudors associating themselves with the dragon!
Here’s a fun bonus question: where does this fit in my ‘Chronological Order’ playlist?
Cadwaladr is from the 7th century, so it could slot between my video on Gwynedd, and Cantre’r Gwaelod.
But the majority of this video takes places in the 1700-1800s, which would put it just before my Union Jack video.
I think I’m going to stick with the latter placement for now, but let me know what you think, diolch!
This whole video is focused more on the claim related to Cadwaldr rather than on the man himself, so I think you are right on putting it latter.
I would clearly put it in the 1700' bc the key figure lived there, anything else is just a reference.
Local author, here on the wirral, Tom Sleman, has a very eclectic, elastic view of time..as in timeslip...sometimes I think we all do to a certain extent...cheers...E...
just one question, what's a diolch?
thx! 😁
I think late or even later makes more sense than putting it in the old section, unless you think making people see it around the "forgotten kingdom" video is most important to counter the belief people might think you are claiming it is associated with cadwaladr.
This has become my favourite channel in all of CZcams. Well researched, well presented and all of the videos about one of my favourite subjects in history. Kudos to your dedication, your passion and your talent!
Thank you very much, that's very kind, I'm glad you're enjoying the channel
One of my favourites, too. Great stuff.
@@CambrianChronicleswe all are sir...keep up with the great work that you do...E...😊😊
I usually save the videos for whenever I have the time to properly sit down and enjoy them with a nice meal.
It's 1:41am, there was already something incredible but slightly unsettling about the narration throughout, but that ending has genuinely scared the life out of me...Brilliant video, this isn't the first I've watched but the first I've bothered to comment on. Absolutely love what you do - I really hope you feel deeply encouraged to continue to make videos like this.
Thank you, sorry for the unsettling haha, I'm glad you enjoy the videos
@CambrianChronicles I thought it was very interesting intended or not on losing ones mind. Anyway after going down multiple rabbit holes of trying to find information on the internet, it has become taken for granted what is actually true or not, just copied without care
By the way, you also referenced the White Greyhound of Richmond. The Earl of Richmond was once a title born by the Dukes of Brittany whose own symbol was the white ermine. When supporting a shield both animals can look surprisingly similar to each other. There's at least some possibility that the one creature derives from a misreading of the graphical representation of the other. Installing a Breton nobleman in North Yorkshire might also give an interesting clue as to the survival of the British tongue at that period in Northern Britain.
E
Wow. So one Scot's simple assumption, a reasonable logical deduction, but nothing more, ended up being the basis for 3 centuries of BS.
It could have been him or it could have been someone older who he got the idea from. You can never really know.
Precisely! And that's what I find so fascinating about the whole thing, because as you said it's perfectly logical, if entirely unsubstantiated,
Typical Welshman! :P Always blaming the Scots! :D (j/k)
You’d be surprised how often this is the case for the history we know
Unfortunately I'm from Lloegr @@MasterTMO
I am of Welsh decent, but I knew pretty much nothing about Welsh history until I found this channel. Thank you for all your effort!
So disappointed in British Goblins. I am shaking right now
That's why this video took me 3 weeks to make, I spent 6 minutes making it and 30,234 minutes trembling from the loss of British Goblins
This channel, along with BobbyBroccoli and SummoningSalt, are my go-to videos whenever I want to watch something interesting. Thank you for all the work you put into these videos, you've made me care about Welsh history honestly far more than I probably should, lol.
Thank you, there no such thing as a limit to how much you can care about Welsh history haha
Matt Turk flew the red dragon banner first?
@@oz_jones It was actually a part of the Nortel pump and dump.
That’s really interesting! Poor Nesbit, he probably didn’t mean to have this domino effect…I do wonder what other myths have been repeated for centuries over innocent mistakes.
I'm not Welsh, I've never been to Wales, nor have I ever been associated to Wales in my entire life, matter of fact there would be no reason for me to watch your videos. Yet you make Wales a topic so fascinating and honestly your editing style is cool, I try not to miss any of these! If I ever were to make a trip to Wales (and I hope I will) it'll be thanks to you! Keep up the good work!
Despite being near unrelated, the joke at the end made this whole video feel like a setup for that one gag and made me guffaw so sonorously I think I shook the windows in my neighbor’s house.
I have to know the meaning behind this, please elaborate 🙏
@@starondr joke in outro make me laugh big loud
@@zhonghuaxiansheng oh no understood, I meant the meaning of the joke... I mean it might just be a horror insert and I'm looking too deep into it
Haha thank you, I'm glad my 3am brainfog creations made someone laugh
I am an American and have normally little intrest in these sorts of videos, as many I see are filled with fluff, and I never know if what they are saying is true, as many have no sources attached, however you make these very informative and entertaining, and very reliable- I'm glad I found this channel, its very cool!
I loved the video mightily, being a wikipedians myself. With the advent of google books it has become so much easier to track down "echo chambers" of old books. At the same time it has become much easier for wikipedans to propagate misinformation by citing old outdated books. Because real experts are a minuscule percent of wikipedians.
Wikipedia isnt the only problem! Im so glad to see this put out there.
I just discovered your channel and i really like what you are doing here. Historiography and epistemology aren't dealt with usually.
Secondary and even primary sources are filled with problems regardless of how old they are.
Just as an example, the author Strabo, a rough contemporary of Jesus and Caesar, who was a Greek living in what is now Turkey....
Wrote down an early example of a Cinderella type myth, that is about a greek enslaved by Egyptian nobility
And it is often called the "Egyptian version of Cinderella"
Even though it was written by a greek man in anatolia during the height of the Roman empire --So it is not Egyptian folklore at all.
And this innacuracy has been repeated for a couple centuries.
And that is just one out of many examples i have noticed personally.
So i really appreciate your work. Thank you for exposing the holes in the fabric of accepted knowledge.
Please keep making videos.
I think my biggest gripe with Wikipedia is that, as a tertiary source, there is almost no analysis needed from the reader. The primary source was already analyzed by someone else and the Wikipedia editor analyzes _that_ analysis. It doesn’t leave much room for the reader to really think, and I feel like it’s really given people a false idea of what research really is.
Not that it’s bad to have things written in simpler forms, but you’re basically putting faith into the author of the secondary source _and_ the Wikipedia editor to give a non-biased account of historical events. A lot of stuff gets lost in that.
So I think Wikipedia is the biggest contributor to false information since nobody bothers to check it (besides CC, I guess)!
You are write about Strabo, to go further though, Egyptian nobility during this time would have been Greek back then. This would have been during the Greek occupation of Egypt, leading into the Roman occupation.
I mean, Strabo could’ve easily heard it from Egyptians? It could’ve been an oral tradition and he was the first to write it down? Or it was written down but Strabo’s version is the only one to survive to this day?
This accidental rabbit hole reminds me of the CGPGrey article about the Tiffany Problem. Thank you for taking us on this journey with you and thank you for your tireless dedication to finding sources. We need more people like you on CZcams and in academia.
That is an insane level of dedication to a topic I would not have cared about at all. Respect
These types of videos about widespread historical misinformation give me the same shaky nauseous feeling as true crime and lost media deepdives. It feels like something has been deeply disturbed in the fabric of reality, and something has been lost that we can never get back, yet it never really existed in the first place. When I think about how little we really know about the past, and how much the 17th and 18th centuries did to mess up what little we did know, it feels so enormous and unwieldy it makes me feel ill.
I cannot thank you enough for the work you and some other youtubers do to set the record straight. It is genuinely some of the best academic research that I have ever seen, surpassing that of high-budget documentaries and books written by experts. I hope to be a proper historian one day and when I do I hope I have even an ounce of the academic integrity that you do. Please keep up the good work.
Okay, with that last bit I think we officially need you to start a creepypasta channel.
Haha thank you, I would've loved to have made a creepypasta channel back in the day
Love from Taiwan. Please keep this channel alive and well. I hope to share this with everyone, especially the younger generation, as an example of understanding the importance of critical thinking and reviewing of sources.
I was really hoping for: "This was once revealed to me in a dream" to crop up.
Gosh, you're really doing groundbreaking work here! It's understandable why no-one has fact-checked this claim before, but it's brilliant that it has been fact-checked now. Well done!
Thank you!
This video is absolute gold among a big pile of crap youtube recommends us
Really like all the scenic paintings you use in the background, your editing keeps going from strength to strength.
Thank you!
I’ve learned not to trust Wikipedia, but it’s creepy to think just how much of our history was “accidentally” changed.
Wikipedia is good, but irregular. It's fine as a starting point on topics that have a lot of easily acessible sources and that are not politically controverse. However, smaller articles about niche stuff is another story...
That said, many studies show Wikipedia's reliability. Compared to textbooks in pharmacology, for example, it was 99,7% right about drug information (Kraenbring, 2014).
So I think its errors are an inevitable consequence of size. Article by article, its not that worse than any other enciclopedia, and can sometimes be invaluable.
@@felipefortaleza8280the problem is that so many people just copy Wikipedia in articles that any error in Wikipedia will spread. Like I bet a lot of the no source websites the guy in the video went to just copy Wikipedia.
Like they created a flag for the Austrian hungry empire that didn't exist (they put a merchant English where the national flag goes)and it got copy so much that it all over the Internet
why is the ending low-key actually spooky 😭
Haha thank you, I wanted it to be a little bizarre
What a nice Sunday treat! Going to be listening to this while I do some research prep
Thank you, I hope you like the video!
I, from the bottom of my heart, hope that you would publish this as a peer reviewed research paper. The amount of researching poured into this is astonishing
It comes from the story of the Wonder child who later was Merlin. The story about the Red Dragon of the Britons and the White dragon of the Saxons. The child said that the Red dragon would win. Henry VII was trying to recreate the Arthurian myths aka Return of the King making his son Prince Arthur - POW.
wait what
British Goblins is what I call people from the midlands
Thanks mate...
I love your channel. As an Englishman, it's nice to hear more about the history of our nation, outside of the 1066 and WW2 we're taught in school.
Thank you, I'm glad to hear that! I agree, the whole of the UK has such a fascinating history, but so much of it is left unsaid
sorry pal but wales is not your nation, wales is its own! despite longshank's invasion and its continued occupation
If anything it would be correct to have england as a country of wales. in that the Welsh population is the reminants of the ancient britons that were driven from the east to west initially by the roman invasion, and laterly by the invading angles and saxons. The reality is that the english are far from been british, but for the most part are decended from the germanic angle and saxon tribes from the post roman period, and to a lesser degree norse. but certainly not british
@@jukeseyable English people are Anglo-Celtic. Ancient British DNA is still found in the majority of the ‘English’ admixture. Germanic DNA is found in greater quantities the closer you get to London. It’s Ancient British CULTURE that hasn’t survived since the arrival of the Angles and the reason for that is that nobody wrote anything down until the end of the Anglo-Saxon period thanks to Bede.
@@jukeseyable I'm going to file the statement that "the english are far from been british" under the 'yikes nationalism moments' folder. If 1,500 odd years isn't enough to become British, then nothing is. Remember that migrations to Britain were ongoing before the Romans turned up and wrote stuff down.
MY BROTHER YOU *CANNOT* JUST HIT US WITH THAT ENDING LIKE THAT.
Sometimes it be like that
I feel this could actually blow up
Thank you! That would be pretty cool considering how niche it is haha
@@CambrianChronicles Honestly I find it quite important for the Welsh identity as a whole
Your videos are so engaging yet so informative. Like, I never would've thought one of my favorite CZcams channels would concern Welsh history, but here we are. Your content is lovely, diolch!
Thank you, that's very kind, I'm glad to have introduced someone to Welsh history, diolch!
Your videos are always so absolutely fascinating - I love that you delve so deeply into such utterly niche historical topics and shine light on them. This was absolutely enthralling.
Thank you, I'm really glad you enjoyed it!
this is a great video- the research, narration, storytelling, editing, everything is incredible!!!
I enjoy that this is a video I can access easily, but darn, this could have been a whole master thesis on its own! Thoroughly enjoyed it, as I do all your videos!
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic Video. When a youtuber goes down an irresitable rabbit hole and you can feel their interest brimming through the screen, these are my favourite kind of videos.
It was so interesting watching you go back further and further with the sources and I didnt have to put the heavy work in!
Once again this is a great video - writing this comment in the hopes the algoritmic gods take notice
Haha thank you, I'm glad you like the deep dives!
I am an archaeologist with PhD in field of 19th century Asia, I did not want study that era but I did read a book which did shake my knowledge since then I wanted to know what is truth what is not , guess what just because something written in last centuries dose not mean it is true, you cannot believe how many historical mistakes I found, I really love when someone have passion like me & you Sir are similar to me, I love your researches they give me idea & hope for a world with better knowledge about past in the future.
You deserve way more credit for this than a few internet points on CZcams. Try publishing it, this is great work!!!
Thank you, I might give it a try!
I’ve been watching your videos while I have been doing my senior dissertation for my history degree and you have genuinely helped me with finding sources. Primary and secondary sources research has been a crazy grind and your fun twist on it has made me enjoy the process more. Thank you mate. Not sure what that was at the end but I enjoyed it XD
Haha thank you, I'm glad to have been of help, best of luck with your dissertation!
@@CambrianChronicles thank you I finished my rough draft last night!
I love these new videos; getting to see not only the raw facts but the entire investigation is absolutely fascinating!
Thank you, I like showing the whole process so it's great to see people enjoy seeing it too
seeing the process is fantastic thank you @@CambrianChronicles
Another excellent video from you! Love your narrative voice and editing style, you’re the reason i got so engrossed in Welsh history, thanks man!
By the way, watching that ending before going to bed was probably not the best idea i had, I’m intrigued though, definitely right up my alley, would be interesting if it becomes an ongoing thing, do you have the source for the image?
Haha thank you, I just made it for fun at like 3 or 4 am and two of my friends found it funny so I kept it in.
The source is here: www.library.wales/discover-learn/digital-exhibitions/europeana-rise-of-literacy/childrens-literature/flame-bearers-of-welsh-history#?c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=-672%2C-1%2C3488%2C2967 (page 205)
it's Llywelyn's cave, I just find the colour and composition kind of eerie, hence why I used it
Wow another incredible video! Well done!! I’m showing this to my students. Please make more of these!
Thank YOU for making this video! Your descent into madness has staved off my own unraveling.
Another great piece of detective work. You are the embodiment of something we old timers used to call "peer review". Glad to see the concept hasn't quite gone extinct yet!
Thank you! Ironically posting these videos serve as a peer review, I always find out stuff I could've added or tweaked
Good work. I've done some work on wiki correcting a bio of a soldier that was believed to have died in poverty. There was a lot of assumptions made because he sold his VC and some authors used creative writing to embellish those assumptions. There was lots of copying over the years that created a pauper myth without using solid source references. When genealogists were asked to investigate the soldier's family background the genealogists came up with the soldier's will that proved that rather than dying in poverty, he died with a decent amount of money in the bank. He was quite well off when he died.
Oh wow, so his story made a 180 degree turn in the end? Haha
I've heard some horror stories from genealogists online, and in the comments of my last video, it sounds like a tumultuous sector to research
@@CambrianChronicles Genealogy when it's done right using original source references is really helpful to historians. The problem with a lot of historians is they use other historian's work rather than going to and naming original sources. Some historians would rather tell a story and in the process add mistakes and fictional content. Some people were happy to go with the narrative that this soldier died poor because that story suited them it's content they can use. People use people from the past for various reasons. Some feel they have to rescue their memory or address some wrong. The facts often get lost and myths are created over time.
I just found your channel but have to say, everything I've seen from you is top-notch! YOU should be the one writing these articles, correcting the mistakes of the past. Just like a good video essayist, you brought the forgotten truth of the past into light that fixes the mistakes of the present.
Thank you very much!
This reminds me of that one greentext that's like
>"heavy objects fall faster than light ones"
>no one bothers to check if this is true for 2000 years
Whenever I watch this channel, I always feel that satisfying feeling, I also experience when cracking one of my own genealogical mysteries. Thank you for the amazing content, watching such a skilled researcher unravel these ancient tales never fails to excite me!
Thank you, I'm glad you like the channel!
I really admire your dedication to sourcing and academic rigor on subjects most people would gloss over
Please give an update if this gets into media or go “viral” amongst historians! Im so excited! Good job ^^
Okay, I had to subscribe after watching this. So well done. This also reminds me of the Merit-Ptah debacle. That was basically people playing telephone about a female physician from ancient Egypt but in all likelihood she never existed. There have been landmarks in space named after her before people checked sources like you did in this video.
31:45 cambrian horror narration channel when? :P
Haha thank you
holy crap!! this makes you wonder how often stuff like this happened all across historical sources, what other stuff we 'think we know' but have merely 'hallucinated' into existance over a few hundreds of years
Incredibly impressive digging sir! Great content!
Outstanding as always, thank you.
For what it is worth, I think you are one of the best historians active on CZcams. Thank you again
Thank you very much, that's very kind!
Cadwaladr does not even have to be a personal name as I think it means battle leader so it may just be a mythological figure. This is really the trouble with sources as in Welsh History the sources are few and far between as so many have been destroyed lost in fire or decayed away. Edward I carted many off to the Tower of London and later despite being state records they were destroyed possibly because of the language they were written in, the history they portrayed or religeous heresy they contained.
Admire your patience in trying to get to the bottom of this, imo as good as any Masters Dissertaion 🙂
Where can I check sources of this history being destroyed? Or are they assumptions?
The records taken by Edward I seem to have been destroyed by a monk called Ysgolan in the 1300s there are a few records including his name on the web and the Wiki article details the loss of the Coron Arthur and the Y Groes Naid . Most manuscripts were lost after the dissolution of the monastries, fire and decay taking them in numerous private libraries.@@eoghan-
This is similar to the Celtic Creation Myth that can be found all over the internet that came from a speculative reconstruction article 20 or so years ago that never claimed any authenticity in the preamble. The original article is still available online, but no one seems to link to it, just uses the author's name.
As always, well done.
I actually did a video on just that issue a couple of years ago.
The what? 👀
I can only imagine how you crept along the edge of madness as you dug deeper into this. Thanks for all your hard work.
Your dedication to researching things to add to my list of obscure knowledge I’ll never use for practical reasons is astounding and inspiring.
Man I feel so bad! I'm safe though because I've never called it Cadwalladyrs dragon. I will say I was always confused WHY it was called his dragon though when he came from the old myths and poems from Cymru. This reminds me alot of Geoffrey of Monmouth really, but more subtle. I hope your recovery from the gasslighting is swift - loved the video 😊
Thank you, I was confused too, hopefully my theory is right, I can always make a follow up video if not!
@@CambrianChronicles sorry I have returned after 4 months. I've finally began going through "Wales: a History of a Nation" by David Ross and he claimed the same again! I think its more symbolically powerful to say that its Cymru's dragon than some king most people don't even know. Just bugged me that I was revealed the truth and them *boom* Cadwallader jumpscare 😂
EDIT: You need to get this theory published somehow too!
An excellent video on historiographical traditions ! Thank you very much for this detailed dissection !
Thank you, it was fun to make so I'm glad you enjoyed it!
10/10 video as always, love how deep you dive into these things.
Loving the inspiration you've taken from BobbyBroccoli for presentation, I will say maybe you should increase the bitrate? I kept getting a lot of artifacts when items would move across the screen.
I've always* been interested in Welsh history, but you've really expanded my appreciation for that specific part of British history. As well as make me partly regret not going for a History major since your research is so fascinating.
* For a restricted definition of "always", not literally since birth.
I came for the welsh lore, I stayed for the intense historiography.
A lot of people think Wikipedia is one of the greatest things in the Internet and a highly valuable website and others think its just an elitist hierarchical group of nerds. This channel has convinced me that Wikipedia is something which has an amplified effect that articles and encyclopaedias do, for better and for worse and that's the best way to approach Wikipedia.
I think that's a valid perspective, the sheer fame of Wikipedia means that anything on there can be amplified massively, but the benefit of the website is that it can be changed, and corrected, which has happened already with this topic, and the article I covered in my last video has been massively overhauled too
Great video. Thanks for this, it's both educative and entertaining.
Saw the whole thing.. Just epic to delve into such depths for the truth.. Subscribed❤
I loved the "This thing is EVERYWHERE"
Amazing video as always! I hope you don't get replaced by Cadwaladr any time soon.
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it!
Somewhere a history professor decides they have not wasted their life
What a great video! Especially loved the editing on this one, are there any channels you get inspiration from for your style?
Definitely, Jon Bois and Bobbybrocolli are my two biggest ones, alongside channels like Historia Civilis
You've shown an admirable commitment to the good practice of historiography here, and undoubtedly gone the extra mile. The proliferation of the Internet has allowed more information to be spread and learned than in the past 10 millennia combined, but equally it has become comparably easy for that information to become corrupted and mangled. The onus is on all of us to be circumspect about blithely repeated factoids where the publishers have not cared enough to be properly diligent. No-one knows how much history has already been lost or changed due to such factors, and it will happen at an exponential rate with Information Age means. It's especially important where topics as popularly unknown or shallowly known as Welsh history.
I was disappointed not to have another Scooby-Doo reveal of Iolo Morgannwg.
I was hoping to bring him up, because he must have written something about Cadwaladr, but in the end I didn't find a slot for him, and the origins ended up being before his time anyway
Love your stuff man
Thank you!
great video its amazing the quality of the research and story telling of this topic
Thank you!
Super dope video mate!! Thanks for all the work you did on it!!!
I appreciate that, thank you for watching them!
I wish every wikipedia talk page was dramatized like this.
If you want talk page drama, I'd definitely recommend this video by Noj Rants: czcams.com/video/HgvB9aW98z8/video.htmlsi=EMQEfcyRE7aS4dxX
Amazing stuff, I admire your diligence and hard work that so many passionate historians share. This really shows the importance of not only citing sources, but knowing your sources and the context that they were written in too (◕‿◕)♡
Thank you very much, I'm glad you enjoyed!
your videos always hook me, it makes me remember why i love studying history
Thank you, I'm glad!