The Mouth of Sauron | Examining Popular Theories
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
- The Mouth of Sauron is a mysterious character - leading to many theories surrounding him. In this Tolkien video, I explore this character and his brief appearance in The Lord of the Rings. I look specifically at three popular theories I have seen pop up time and time again on various sites, offering my thoughts on them and if they have any merit.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
2:39 - Theory 1 - The Messenger at the Gate
4:12 - Theory 1 - The Mouth or a Ringwraith?
5:03 - Theory 1 - The speech and terror of Ringwraiths
8:00 - Theory 1 - Antagonists of The Fellowship of the Ring
9:00 - Theory 1 - Messenger not Emissary
10:13 - Theory 1 - The use of Sauron's name
12:55 - Theory 1 - The speech of the Mouth of Sauron
14:58 - Theory 1 - The Timeline of the Nazgûl
17:10 - Theory 1 - Who is the Messenger?
19:08 - Theory 2 - The age of the Mouth of Sauron
21:15 - Theory 2 - Exploring Quote 1
22:10 - Theory 2 - Exploring Quote 2
24:54 - Theory 2 - The Rings of the Dwarves
25:50 - Theory 2 - "When it first rose again"
27:30 - Theory 2 - Decades, Centuries, or Millenia?
28:55 - Opinion - Willing servants of Sauron
30:31 - Theory 3 - The Last King of Gondor
32:14 - Theory 3 - Wraith? Wight? Shade?
33:20 - Theory 3 - Different versions of text
34:23 - Theory 3 - Secrets and twisting the text
35:34 - Theory 3 - It is told, it is said, it is believed...
38:29 - Opinion - A willing servant of evil
40:18 - Outro - Rings & Kings
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#tolkien #sauron #responses #legendarium #lotr - Zábava
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"...and he was more cruel than any orc." You have to imagine the Mouth of Sauron doing something really horrible and an orc standing by shaking their head, saying "Dude, that's pretty out there..."
"It is by no means clear, so far as I know, that the Eskimos ever indulged in human sacrifice. They were not civilised enough. ... It was in richer and more instructed lands that the genial current flowed on the altars, to be drunk by great gods wearing goggling and grinning masks and called on in terror or torment by long cacophonous names that sound like laughter in hell." -- G. K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man
As Chesterton points out, the greatest extremes of evil are carried out by cultured, civilized, sensitive souls.
So this is definitive proof that humans have the potential to be worse than orcs. I. guessing it hassomethingto do with our greater agency and culpability for our actions.
@@waltonsmith7210 Exactly. Just as Maiar have the potential to be worse than humans.
There's no evidence, of course, but I like to imagine that comment as referencing the Mouth maybe being involved in some horrible business within the tower itself. Prisoners, torture - both psychological and physical. "More cruel" meaning that he's not just following orders, he enjoys it. It's not "for sport" as Orcs would say, or for food. He genuinely enjoys it.
Unit 731 vibes. 😬
I never knew there even was controversy here. He's a mortal man of pure Númenórean descent, which means he can easily have been in Sauron's service for the 68 years since Barad-dûr's rebuilding. And I think it's a wise move to include such a character at this point, because it drives home the fact, that there are people who freely and proudly serve Sauron (which is far more frightening to me) and that they aren't about to face only mindless drones or foreigners that might have been tricked into Sauron's service. He's almost a mirror to Aragorn himself.
Now I kinda wonder what living as a human in Mordor was like.
I'm still getting responses saying he was a Wizard or that I'm wrong about him being mortal. The controversy continues lol
@@TheSorrel probably all sorts of partying and excessive living if you're of a higher class like the Mouth. Slave women, drugs, wines brought from foreign lands. It is this sort of thing that corrupts mortal men.
@@TheRedBook iirc the witch king had very long life even before being given the ring under saurons tutelage. He may have learned similar secrets
@@blakeriley8546 - No text to suggest he was long lived beforehand. Do you have a source?
The Mouth of Sauron's story is even more grim than forgetting his own name-The name implies that the man has forgotten his own words.
What a poetic and likely intentional description. Love that.
What does that mean?
If means Sauron speaks for him. He's basically a man that only exists to speak what Sauron commands him to speak, no longer an individual.
@@TheRedBook Yet he's cruel enough to know what he's doing.
I don't necessarily agree with the original point but was just answering the previous point :)
I have no words. Incredible work. You are quickly becoming the best LOTR content creator on this platform. It's so refreshing to not hear just readings of the Silmarillion. You bring out debates and conversations that go so much deeper.
I agree! Most other channels just try to answer the common and obvious questions while I find myself asking 5-10 additional questions but rarely is my curiosity satisfied except for this channel. The Red Book uses real critical thinking and I love it.
I agree as well. I feel Steven here might be more grounded in the literature. All these other channels, NoTR, MotW help solidify facts and dates, they don't bring a ton more than that. They never site their work or they would be sighting each others CZcams time stamps. They came to Tolkien through the Jackson movies and LOTRO. There was never a time for them when the books were still "the thing". Hey, sure that gives them their spin on it. But as time goes on because they lack literary insight to their videos, which takes years to ferment, they all end up making the same videos within months or even weeks of each other. While they are good for fact imprinting on the brain, you'll go down a deeper rabbit hole listening to the Red Book or picking up Forsters guide or the Atlas to ME. I appreciate what they do, to a degree, don't get me wrong. But these are the videos that excite me personally.
@@christophedmarchal76 Um, "cite" (or "citation"), not "site".
While of course _The Red Book_ is an excellent Tolkien channel, other "small" channels also offer more than summaries, such as _Tolkien Lore_ , _GirlNextGondor_ , and _Darth Gandalf_ .
Thanks a lot Damian and to those responding with such positivity about the channel and the content :D
don't really see it as a big "debate", Tolkien literally tells us its a Numenorian and we can easily deduce it's not one of the Nine from the books movement of Nazgul. Could he have a lesser ring that sustains his life beyond the normal few hundred year span? Why not. Tolkien clearly regarded such details as more trivial and not worth his time to identify.
I really feel like the Mouth was essentially "just some guy." He represents the fact that Sauron's resources are vast to a degree that we can't even guess. In a way his existence justified the assault on the Black Gate, as it reinforces that Sauron has powerful lieutenants that not even Gandalf is aware of. Gandalf at one point says that not all of Sauron's servants are Orcs. I'd add that they're not even all ordinary beings. Who knows how many more unique servants Sauron may have added to the conflict if the ring had not been destroyed.
I was gonna say the same thing. I think that's the reason when he's introduced he is said to have forgotten his own name. I think it was a way to introduce the character without having to give a bunch of background on him.
I also wonder sometimes if he would have been involved with the book he never finished and if we would have gotten more background in it
Exactly, we have several mentions in LotR about all these dreadful servants and creatures of Sauron - it doesn't mean we have to know them all or see them all. It's a big world.
@@TheRedBook Exactly, and sometimes I like some mystery left to characters. You're left imagining the things they've done with your own imagination
This is the thing. Because the character is memorable but mysterious it leads people to believe that there must be some greater significance, a sort of variation of the functional fallacy.
It's fun to speculate but ultimately the most likely truth is what we're told; that it's just some guy who's previous identity is long forgotten. Personally I prefer that as it allows you to imagine different stories of who he was and how he became this character.
The interpretation given about the Mouth's age was what I had understood from the start, that the mouth had come to Sauron's service about 80 years earlier and worked his way up the Mordorian bureaucracy. Remember there were the lands in Nurnen populated by the millions of slaves who generated the economic output that supported Sauron's military strength. This economy needed a large management class. Orcs were too corrupt to be trusted with significant authority. Sauron, like Saruman, would need men for managerial purposes.
love this idea. We just never met these overseers because we were focused on the military affairs and frodo's quest. Makes sense!😁
Yup. He started out as a filing clerk in Nurnen, worked his way up to supply auditor, and eventually became Sauron's executive VP.
Sauron was the 'lieutenant' of Morgoth, and the Mouth was the 'lieutenant' of Sauron (or clearly had ambitions to be, beyond just Barad-dûr). I like the idea (pure fanfiction), that the Mouth survived the downfall of Sauron, and continued his line of Black Numenoreans, passing on the secret title of 'Lieutenant'. They would regard themselves as the heirs of darkness, and infiltrate Gondorian society to instigate the events of The New Shadow under their leader Herumor, and perhaps beyond. Just as the Eldar and Maiar departed and left it to men to keep some fragment of light alive through Elessar, it is also men who directly inherit the legacy of the shadow and continue the purposes of evil into the Fourth Age.
Nothing wrong at all with imagining that, especially for the abandoned sequel. Who knows what really happened to the Mouth of Sauron, maybe he fled in cowardice - much like his own master did when HIS master was cast down.
Re "Willing Servants": imagine induction on your first day with the Sauron Organisation and getting brought round the workplace to meet the team, everyone's really friendly and welcoming, the Orcs, Trolls, Easterlings are all "hey pleased to meet you, welcome aboard, you need anything just gimme a shout!" and you're feeling really good about your new job; then finally your guide brings you into the back office: "and last but not least these are the Nazgul, small team but GREAT workers, say hi to the new start you guys!" "Hiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssss".... and you're thinking, hmm, something a bit off with that lot. But hey, the money's great and the benefits package is amazing!
You've just described the first day on my previous job :D
hahaha
@@neant2046 Wells Fargo, right?
The thing is to avoid being killed; that’s the key to the benefits.
Sounds like every IT job I've ever had. Troll passes me in the hallway.. Troll: "Who do you work for",, me: "xXxxXXx".. Troll: "ouch" and keeps moving.
We are all grateful for the young man who produced the entire trilogy as an audiobook. Thanks Phil!
A Black Numenorean, skilled in the dark arts of sorcery, could extend his life through his dark arts. Being totally dedicated to Sauron he had lost his "self" and become a willing extension of Sauron, so his self was no longer important. He was in all aspects "the mouth of Sauron".
Well said and makes total sense.
I've always pondered on the lost his self part. I feel like lost feels incomplete. Excised or purged feels more apt. To be elevated, you have to make the choice to give up the self, which feels fouler to me. It can't be take by others, you have to burn it out yourself. Maybe I'm full of beans though.
You're making it complicated. "Mouth" was grifting. Easy Peasy.
@@tomcunningham9318 Haha, well said.
Years of reading Tolkien and I never really thought of this till I saw this video. The name "Sauron" is an epithet for the Dark Lord, used by his enemies. Of course he doesn't call himself by that name, any more than Melkor would identify himself as Morgoth. When Aragorn says Sauron doesn"t allow his servants to use his true name, I think what's actually meant by this is that Sauron allows no one to know or use his true Maiar name, Mairon. Calling him Sauron to his face or anywhere he could hear about it would be unwise for any of his servants, to say the least. But I could see him allowing this in certain instances, as when "Sauron" is likely to be the only name he is known by to the folk being interacted with. It also doesn't hurt when the intent is to frighten and intimidate people when that name strikes fear all over middle earth.
Yeah having a name like Marion would take the bite of his darkest overlord. That's what they call him behind his back to be sure.
"Sauron" really does have a certain malice just in the sound of it. I was thinking recently if Sauron actually named the One Ring "Precious". Because several different people end up compulsively calling it that name, and none of them spoke to each other before naming it that.
That's why the orcs call him "big baddie!!"
yea, gothuar the cruel, lord or the isle of wearwolves sound cooler
he was a exceptional student of aule at one time
The Earnur theory may have been influenced by The Lord of the Rings Online. In the game, Earnur was transformed into a wraith called Mordirith and was made the Steward of Angmar. There's no basis for this in Tolkien but it's fun fan fiction. Some of these theorists may have been trying to get that idea to work in canon. It doesn't work though, as you pointed out.
That's interesting, I was unaware of that. I have never played LOTRO. I have played games like Shadow of Mordor/War which are hilarious in the way they rewrite the story but I didn't know a game had written Earnur this way.
@@TheRedBook LOTRO is a great game. It's usually fairly respectful of the book canon. But it does have a few crazy departures like the Earnur plotline.
@@TheRedBook I only just started playing Shadow of War/Mordor a few months ago, and my assessment of their story/lore is this: *Shadow of Mordor* is to _Lord of the Rings_ as *Olive Garden* is to _fine Italian cooking._ But they're good video games overall with fun gameplay, so I try to just turn my brain off and enjoy while I play them.
@@David_Fellner that's pretty much what I think. I can separate Tolkien from them and just enjoy them as games. I enjoyed them.
Here it comes… a huge wall of text for a huge video :D
This video is just fabulous. I honestly didn't know what to fix my attention on when I was watching it for the first time… And for the second time, and for the third, probably… Too many details that deserve special attention! :D
The commissioned artworks are beautiful: I love the style, the "oily" textures and the colours. I have also found new favourites among the other images. The colours of the frames and sidebars play with them so well (sorry, again the colours, but that yellow that you used for the frames is Lovecraftianly beautiful), and the effects just make them so alive... This video really looks cinematic! The light, the fog, the rain, the ashes, and that cool snow over the Rivendell - I love it. And all this is in excellent quality.
The music is especially good this time: it is probably due to the length of the video that allowed for using many different compositions, but it was a pleasure to hear how they switch the atmosphere. I caught myself listening just to the music several times :D Not because it was distractive, it's just really good.
I also love how accurately you provide the facts for or against each theory, especially that part with the last reconstruction of the Barad-dûr - I’ve never thought about it before, and I would probably have missed it.
But the conclusion is the best part, in my opinion. You always make such strong endings for the videos, that they should be quoted. I totally agree that just the idea that a person can willingly, consciously and with no pressure be devoted to Sauron to the point where he was trusted to know so much of his thoughts, plans and designs, makes him a much deeper, stronger and scarier character than any of the theories.
And it also highlights Tolkien's thoughts on the nature of Men - that due to their hasty ever-seeking nature they are easily prone to “evil” and even seem to seek for it because they get bored with prosperity and stability very fast. The Mouth of Sauron seems to be a thread that was meant to bind “The Lord of the Rings” with “The New Shadow”.
Thank you for this amazing video, it was certainly worth the wait! I’d agree to wait half a year more for another video like this :D
Thanks for the comments on the production. I'm always trying to improve the editing but I think this one was a step up. A lot of that was to do with upgrades I made to software and even the hardware I'm using. Native 4K editing makes it look way better than what I was doing before!
I always do the music last and I sometimes reuse music because I really think they fit - but I used a good variety this time. Couldn't use 1 track for 40 minutes or people would be driven insane by a 4 minute track looping 10 times.
This is why the Appendices are especially good - The Tale of Years is exactly that but it is necessary for piecing together just when all of this stuff is happening. It's worth having it as a reference guide at least.
I think about 70+ % of viewers don't make it to the end of the video but I like ending it in a good way. I'm happy if someone ends the video feeling that I've made my point and not just ending it abruptly. It's why the end clips usually just consist of images and don't distract with extra information on the screen.
Someone else commented about the Mouth of Sauron and the New Shadow. I like that idea. I can imagine Fourth Age supporters of Sauron wishing they were someone like the Mouth but being lesser versions of him.
It might not be half a year :D but I think the next long video will be a subject worthy of spending that extra time discussing. I have a few ideas in mind for that :)
@@TheRedBook I also like someone's idea that the Mouth of Sauron is a title passed from generation to generation, and then I can even imagine that he could appear again in the plot of the New Shadow, but not as the same person, but as a symbol of the "old evil".
As for the next long video - no doubt it will be a topic worth a good discussion, very intriguing, looking forward to it :)
As far as I'm concerned you can never make a video that is too long. another fantastic piece of work, thank you
I've always though the messenger was likely a ringwraith; it never made sense to me that it would be the Mouth of Sauron. The theory that the Mouth is Earnur always sounded very far-fetched to me and I had never even heard of the Ring of Power theory before today.
I think some people get too carried away with their head canon and start seeing connections that really aren't there, like a form of pareidolia, and ignoring evidence that undercuts their theory.
You are spot on here with your thoughts about these theories. With certain people, Tolkien himself could say they were wrong and they'd argue against him. Anything to stand out from the crowd, I guess...
@@TheRedBook Tell me about it. I sort of blundered into a discussion on another site on the old question of why the fellowship didn't use the great eagles to just fly into Mordor. Most people accepted the explanations I and others offered but there were still a few who would not give up their belief that the Eagles were Gandalf's personal stealth air force capable of flying right into Mordor at little to no risk and use precision targeting to drop the One Ring right into Mount Doom.
This is a lovely mixture of deep diving into Tolkien's lore and a calm, somber, quiet voice and music. It's wonderfully relaxing while satisfying my desire to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. Thank you for this!
Very welcome Devin, thanks for checking it out :D
Summed it up perfectly
Great video.
I’ve always seen him as a Black Numenorian that fell willingly to the Dark Lords service. Glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t think he’s thousands of years old.
That's one aspect of the theory I 100% disagree with. I think it's strange to imagine this man at the gate as being some man from the Second Age just there through .. magic? The explanation that he was around decades earlier fits perfectly.
@TheRedBook I think it's the Forgot Himself part that implies eons of service.
I’d never even heard of the last two of these theories. Well done debunking both, and I tend to agree with you on the first as well.
I haven't heard much about the last one on CZcams but it has been discussed on other sites - it's usually only accepted by the person posting it and the comments tend to rip it to pieces. The second one is definitely something I've encountered here and especially on Reddit and the old barrow-downs discussion boards. It's been around for a while!
I found this channel a month ago, and since then I have supremely enjoyed each of your videos. Each is on a fresh topic with information and discussions that you don’t see on any other Tolkien lore channel. As a longtime fan of all the books and movies your channel is like a breath of fresh air.
Thanks a lot :) . The last thing I want to do is imitate or copy what other channels are doing but I pretty much just focus on what I'd like to do here and people seem to like it!
You know, this is the only channel I’m subscribed to where I’ve watched every video in its entirety. Great work as always.
I also love how you do not twist the story to “connect dots” that aren’t really meant to be connected. I see this all the time in “theory” videos. Not that it matters, though, but I love the realistic and rational approach in your presentation.
Great work!
I'm honoured :D , you have even braved the early videos! I hope the difference between them and recent efforts is noticeable :D .
And yeah, I always make it clear (and say it a few times in this video) that people can approach Tolkien's work in any way they wish but this need to connect the dots or make up theories that make no sense is a bit baffling to me. It would probably be harder for me to make a Tolkien theory about one I agree with :S - I tend to find holes in all the ones I encounter, or put it down to "You can believe that but the text doesn't really hint at that".
@@TheRedBook I hear that! And yes, it IS noticeable. (But the quality of the first ones were already on point).
definitely the only lotr channel where i went back and watched everything, and im glad i did
The worst are the agenda driven hypothesis (they do not rise to the level of theory) by academics such as those who have taken over the Tolkien Society, and any that believe in "death of the author" interpretation. But at least we have a lawyer (Joshua at Tolkien Lore) to take some of them down.
I think the mouth of Sauron is, like many other details in the book, a hint to the larger world in wich the story take place. Not everything needs to be "resolved" and some misteries, like "Who Is the mouth of Sauron" are let to the readers to decide and maybe to meditate upon. That being said, in my two cents the Mouth Is a powerful man of Numenorean lineage, maybe heir to the darkest part of their lineage, since apart from the Lords od Andunie many of them where already in the Darkness by the end of the Second Age. Like hinted in "A New Shadow" It Is possible that some form of cult of Melkor, and hence of Sauron who faked o be Jim, or at least his servant, still lingered in the lands beyond Barad-dur, south or East.
Interesting thoughts but I especially like that you agree about this need to "resolve" everything. I call it the small universe. Every character needs to be related or know every other character, every event has to be known to all others, everything is linked. It's like Star Wars taking place in a galaxy but you can fly to another planet and bump into someone you know. This need to make everything known and explained.
@@TheRedBook Exactly as you said. Expecially in the Tom Bombadil case i think that that "urge to explain everything" misses the point. The beauty of Tolkien's work is in my opinion the "larger breath" of the world, where, not all the details have to "link", like you said, to known characters. After all the Red Book was written by Hobbits and they deem their story of frienship and Hope more important than some lost lore about Sauron's emissaries. But, still, i'm subscribed to your channel because i still enjoy some in depth thoght theory discussing things like "Who was the mouth of Sauron" or like "Sauron's knowledge on wizards". It feels like we're friends of Frodo and Elanor Gamgee discussing the stories that Sam, Pippin and Meriadoc told us when we were in our youth 😊
Another well thought out and thought provoking video! The Red Book has so quickly become my favorite Tolkien channel on CZcams! You do so much more than just provide the random Tolkien fact of the day style content. Well done!
Cheers, Tom! Tolkien Gateway exists to just read those facts, I'd get bored making a video like that. Though, maybe when I run out of ideas ;)
I went from thinking this would be 2 or 3 videos but I wanted to redeem myself after the Screenrant Sauron videos. Thanks to those who stick around for 40 minutes listening to me ramble about silly Mouth of Sauron theories. Please share your own thoughts on this character and the theories I discussed - or any others you have come across!
Support the channel - www.patreon.com/theredbook
Keep up the great work!
It took some endurance for me to finish this video, but a well-done topic for your longest video yet! I agree with you debunking the 1st and 3rd theory, that the former contradicts canon that Sauron trusted only the Nazgul to hunt for The One Ring, while the latter is fanfiction taken too far. I agree with your take on the 2 theory, that The Mouth of Sauron is a dark reflection of Aragorn. He is descended from an evil line of Numenor, with a lifespan and knowledge blessed not by elves but by darkness, comparable in pedigree as a Black Numenorean.
How do you think Peter Jackson portrayed the character? He gave him the freakishly large and deformed mouth to give a literal take on his title, and also imply that speaking Black Speech for so long will physically corrupt your very lips. What do you think of Aragorn just lopping off his head? Many hardcore fans on Quora say this made Aragorn too unchilvarous, unfitting behaviour for an ideal king returning. I say that since Sauron and all his forces engage in bad faith, with The Mouth clearly gloating over his lord's seemingly inevitable victory, he got what he deserved.
it was cool vid
I have another friendly disagreement with Enerdhil. Would the spells put on the "barrow blades" Bombadil distributed to the hobbits to make them more effective against Nazgûl be considered blessings or curses?
If blessings, was the skill lost? It would seem prudent for the elves of Rivendell and Lothlórien to have swords and arrows that could slay Nazgûl.
@@tominiowa2513 - This is probably down to language but I think many believe the Barrow-blades were the only blades capable of 'killing' the Nazgul but it's possibly not the case.
They are effective against them - made specifically to be a bane to them but a sword is a sword. A weapon made to be especially effective does not mean every other blade is ineffective. Think of it as applying poison to a blade, does it make an unpoisoned blade any less sharp?
Quite the length on this video X). Another masterpiece good-sir, had a question regarding many of your videos; the parts where there is 'text-reading' so to speak (not sure what else to call it), is it taken from the BBC Radio Drama or friends of yours reading the dialogue and text of LOTR?
Check out the description, I have a link to his page. It's an unofficial audiobook created by Phil Dragash, on his own! I have permission to use the clips in my videos and helped support his efforts when he originally had them on CZcams.
@@TheRedBook Oh thanks so much! Seems kind of obvious to me now, haha really appreciate it, will definitely check it out!
This video was a superb work of art. I didn’t want it to end. You have become my new favorite source of rumination on Tolkien’s writings. Thank you
Your videos are absolutely enchanting. Im HAUNTED by what you are doing here. Each video has been impossible to pause. Thank you sir!
The most interesting thing to me is that he had forgotten his own name. Even if he was pure Black Numenorean, would he be old enough to forget his name? The most likely answer is that he was trained from a young age to forsake whatever name he was given and give himself fully to Sauron.
Also, what does it mean that he learned sorcery? Exactly what powers does that entail considering he's just a man.
While there is literally no reason to believe the following theory, I like to pretend the mouth was Herumor mentioned in "The New Shadow".
Or it means that at this point he was so overwhelmed by the will of Sauron that ant person he himself might have once been has been swept aside, and his current role is all he is or can remember being.
Excellent work Mellon! KEEP IT UP! It's always nice to watch and hear your analysis. ELENDIL! ELENDIL! FOR THE WEST!
I agree with your opinion regarding The Mouth not being the last King of Gondor. One particular line of text you quoted stood out to me: "...and no living man saw him ever again." This seems to directly refute the idea that the King reemerged centuries later to confront Aragorn and the other mortal Gondorians and Rohirrim.
The quality of your work really stands out. There's almost no one going as thorough and in depth as you.
Thank you Abel :)
Loving the longer format! You make very solid points about these three theories... Got me thinking about it myself, so sorry in advance for the word-salad ^^
My theory is that the Mouth of Sauron is more a title than a specific person: there are still many black Númenóreans along the eastern coast, and I imagine they would have continued the darkness-worshiping cults that had spawned in Númenór under the influence of their old pal Sauron.
As for him being there "when the Dark Tower first rose again", I think it could be some sort of myth, though not one intended to be a deception. Indeed I find it strange that the writers of the Red Book would know exactly who the Mouth of Sauron is; and I don't believe they would have had any way of verifying that this person (whose name none remember) was truly one, single, thousands-of-years-old individual. Furthermore, he is described as a living man, not a spirit or monster : and Sauron had no way we know of that could extend a mortal's lifespan so dramatically without taking a major toll on his body. Had he had a Ring of Power, he would have faded centuries ago, and would no longer be "a living man".
So, I suspect the historians and archivists from Minas Tirith and Rivendell, who contributed to the Red Book, may have filled in the many gaps in the Mouth's history with the assumption that he did live for centuries uncounted, through some sort of pact with Sauron. But I think it would make more sense if the "Mouth of Sauron" was a title, reserved for the most devoted of the fallen Númenoreans: and they would go through some dark ritual at the end of which they would forget their former life and only know themselves as "the Mouth of Sauron".
And if it was continued and unbroken for thousands of years, one could argue that, in a way, the Mouth of Sauron never died. We have real-world examples of this : it was traditional in France, when the king had passed away, to say "the King is dead, long live the King!" in reference to the heir to the throne. It meant the charge of kingship passed immediately into the prince's hands, even before his own coronation : not only was the line of kings unbroken, but it was unceasing. And if, for generations, black Númenoreans did the same thing, naming a new Mouth whenever the one holding the title died, would it not be similar to a line of kings?
I like the idea of it being a title passed down over the centuries. I can't think of any way it violates canon.
A good theory, I like it, I thought about it too.
You raise interesting points that speak of the nature of Tolkien's writing. We are being told about where the Mouth came from, when he started serving Sauron - but it is entirely possible that the author of such words really didn't know such details. Like you say, it's almost like myth, tales being told about this time in Middle-earth and these are the explanations of such figures. The Red Book as you say.
Cool point about the Mouth of Sauron as some title, almost like one chosen by servants of Sauron to represent them. Obviously, we are just speculating but that is a cool idea that could fit in Tolkien's world. It raises questions about the title itself, given by Sauron? or others? Why did Sauron 'bless' such a servant. I love the mystery surrounding this figure and almost don't want these questions answered but he's worthy of such discussion.
It's very clearly meant to be a title, I've never even questioned that. The Mouth of Sauron is called that because he's a kind of herald, proclaiming his master's words to the world.
Though it being a myth not meant for deception is really important. Imo that's what the "it is told" etc lines mean - Tolkien writes from the perspective of a historician translating ancient texts, so with these lines he indicates something being a myth or rumor that there's not a lot of evidence for in the present days. Not an unreliable narrator, but rather the narrator clearly marking a piece of information as less reliable.
@@Tacklepig Very well put!
The art you use is incredible! I’ve never seen the piece in the thumbnail before, I love that style.
Oh, that's a piece I had commissioned for this video. Ralph, the artist, managed to capture The Mouth of Sauron I imagined in my head. He managed to do it very quickly as well - I was shocked :D like he read my mind based on the description I gave him.
@@TheRedBook Are you serious?! That piece feels more like Tolkien than anything I have seen for a long time. I mean everything about it is perfect, and I can’t believe I didn’t know about this channel until now. Great video, I look forward to watching the others. Ralph seems to be a incredibly talented artist, that piece captures so much.
For sure, he's a great artist. I've used commissioned artwork of his in a few videos. About 5 in this video are made by him for his video. He also shows up with some custom art in my Glorfindel video. He will have some new artwork in a video I will be making in October about Finrod.
And yeah, the channel has had a nice push these last couple of weeks. Really happy a lot of people are finding it and giving it a boost :D . Quite a few more channels out here over the really big ones!
Loved the long video. Helped the work shift go by quickly during my break. Thank you
I’ve read the Lord of the Rings plenty of times in my life; I had always assumed the messenger was just another unnamed servant of Sauron, but after this video I now believe you are correct and it was actually one of the Nazgul
I put aside an hour I had, alone and quiet to watch this video and your Gandalf video. It was well worth the wait. It felt cinematic as well as academic, which is an interesting combination. Superb work as always. I know your opinion differs from mine, but I honestly do find your first few videos to be just as excellent as your last few videos, but I do notice the differences. Thank you and have a great day.
Thanks, Alex. I am proud of the early videos but it's just funny seeing how simple they are now. If I was still making videos like that I'd get 3 out a week!
Absolutely fantastic summaries, thoughts, ideas, and unbiased opinions. Love your work!
Thanks a lot :D !
I loved this video ,for me the length was perfect ,keep them coming
I love the style you use when you make these. Excellent video as always!
Thank you, glad you are enjoying the content :)
As for the Mouth of Sauron I have always subscribed to a simpler explanation, one that has let me put it to rest whether right or wrong. I didn't even know about a couple of these theories, and I can see the temptation to debate them, but each side still leans toward identities which start with characters from some high stature. I think giving ourselves over to temptation seems exactly like what Sauron would want from this situation, plus it overlooks the so-called banality of evil, and its sheer, impatient efficiency.
It doesn't have to be the case that there was anything noble or special about the character's origins at all, doubly so when you can bet any dark lord worth their salt would want to keep matters fairly hassle-free -- at least for themselves, though obviously they'd want to hassle others -- so for me my background filler has remained, and will continue to remain, he was hired using the Middle-Earth equivalent of a classified ad, "Need guy who likes to talk and wear fancy hats. Willingness to move a must. Low attachment to given name preferred. Good benefits!" Sounds like just the job for Stevie "Dork" Dunderputz, future employee of the month.
You can try to think otherwise, stick to the loftier stories and scrabble for clues, but the Wise already know, indeed...
Love to hear Phil Dragash and seeing his fantastic job with The audiobooks!
What a great and detailed video, very well done. Thank you.
Subscribed.
Thank you kindly :D
Honestly, absolutely amazing video. I was worried about the length but never noticed the time pass
Thanks! I haven't really made a video like this again (this length) but I am happy with how this one turned out. Maybe a topic in the future will be another long video :D
a long but most awesome vid really enjoyed it looking forward to the next one
one of the bst lotr-lore channels if not the best, gonna watch all of your videos and i hope that you will make more, love this deep-dive lore stuff. Big thumbs up!
@TheRedBook already subscribed and checked it out thanks
Subbed. What a well put together video man. So much effort must have gone in to researching this (easy when you love it) well done though. Such an interesting character, I always like the mystery around him. Left to my own imagination as to what kind of creature he was and what his history was
it took a few days bit by bit but this was really good work, I really enjoy your videos and narration! keep it up you're treating us to wonderful content
Glad you got through it in the end :D . Hopefully, the timestamps helped? I wasn't expecting everyone to sit and take it in in one sitting.
Big fan, and this is certainly one of the best videos on LotR out there. Thank you!
This was phenomenal! I will listen to this one multiple times! Thank you for your hard work
Thanks a lot :D certainly do that if you can spare the time haha
No one on CZcams talks about the legendarium so insightfully and articulately as you
Blown away by your work abd quality keep it up
Thanks a lot :D
thanks for this deep dive on this character. I unfortunately watched the movies first, but even then I can remember being really intrigued by him when he comes forth from the black gate to parlay with Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolaus* & of course Gimli. His air of mystery, along with that creepy CGI mouth were just that disturbing.
Great content man. Really need to give a shout-out to the artwork you feature. I recognise some, not all, but it’s all fantastic.
It is fantastic. I can't imagine how boring my videos would be if I didn't have artwork to use. And yeah, I commissioned several new pieces for this video, so at the moment, this will be the only place you can see them.
@@TheRedBook eagerly awaiting your next vid!
Really inciteful and awesome. I hope you do more long form videos
Some of the best Tolkien content ever right here!
Although I entertain my own fan fiction, I keep in my head as a way of working out a difficult passage where ne context given is enough. I don't have all the books and I'm not very good at studying indepth. So, I REALLY appreciate all the hard work you've done here. Really. Thank you. I rely on all my favorite Lore channels to set me straight on the path.
Exactly my issue with theories mixing up older versions but applying them to the later ones ,to twist to fit a narrative . It’s good you address this issue .
Only watched half of this video and I love it how logical faithful to source material you are when discussing these theories. Many Tolkien fans get carried away with such theories that they might end up enforcing a cool sounding theory even if it goes against established canon. I have also been guilty of this. If not that then trying to fill gaps with speculations that sound more like fanfic than something Tolkien could have written.
For example theory of Maglor still being alive around second or even third age is popular among some people. I myself considered it to be intriguing and possible that he survived.
Even though chapter in Silmarillion covering the events of first kinslaying in Alqualonde state presicely that he later died. At least in finnish translation of Silmarillion.
Excellent! Logical and convincing. Great summary.
Thanks again Dovid!
Easily one of your best videos! I enjoyed this discussion very much. I love discussing the villains of Tolkien, especially ones who have that choice to be evil.
Villains are always the most interesting because you get to talk about what makes them evil in the first place. This is especially interesting in Tolkien due to nothing being "evil" in the beginning. Glad you enjoyed the video!
That was fascinating and very thought provoking. Thank you.
You're very welcome, Andrew.
Incredible insight. Really look forward to your videos..
Thanks, Stephen :)
Keep it up, great videos. The detail is welcome.
The appearance of Sauron on the battlefield and the Mouth of Sauron's appearance were goosebump moments for me.
Thanks for your channel and content 🙏 , I really enjoy your style and approach to Tolkien
Cheers, John! No need to thank me, I enjoy it, and always like to see that others are as well.
@@TheRedBook when you love what you do !!!
Awsome content..your best video yet..they keep getting better..no Need to excuse yourself for the length no problem for me anyway. again wonderful choice of artwork during the entire video.
Was happy to get some designs that I wanted for this video - artwork related to the Mouth of Sauron is severely lacking! There will be more of these longer videos in the future, for sure.
We know that some groups of the Black Numenoreans continued to live to the south and east of Mordor, especially in Umbar, and we also know that these people and many other peoples from those areas have been allied or enslaved by Sauron at different times (sometimes allied simply as a convenience to further their ongoing wars against Gondor). I had always just assumed that this Mouth of Sauron was just a particularly high-ranking human from one of these areas, probably selected because of loyalty and Numenorean background. It's possible to see him as a person who is loyal and ambitious, but I always thought of him as being enslaved, tortured and twisted into obedience.
Day off from work, gloomy morning, cup of hot coffee and a 40 minute video from The Red Book. I can't ask for more in this life.
Thanks for your another godlike quality video content sir. Keep it up man🔥
Thanks for checking it out! :)
You have taken a topic that seems unimportant and made it quite interesting to me. Please keep making these. You are very good at explaining Tolkien's work. Would you mind explaining your background? I'm picturing you as a literary professor or something similar.
In regards to my theory, I look at the Mouth of Sauron somewhat like I look at Tom Bombadil. Not in power, but in that they're both an unexplained mystery with no clear answer regarding their origins or what they are.
Your statement at 36:18, "This leaves room for me to make up what I want doesn't it?" had me rolling in my chair.
I agree with you in your approach to Tom Bombadil and the Mouth of Sauron. I also think that not everyone or everything needs to be categorised. Even Tolkien himself has said "I don't know" when asked about certain figures, when he could have just sat and made up an explanation on the spot. I'm also glad such a topic has been made interesting. I'm also not someone who really dives into fan theories often - but some are worthy of a bit of discussion, if even to just moan about them being theories in the first place.
A literary professor? I wish! Unfortunately for me, my job has nothing to do with Tolkien or books. I do software/firmware engineering. World's away from Tolkien :D
With the qualitiy of your videos, the longer the better!
This is marvellous, as per usual. Thank you.
Thanks for watching :)
Great video as always. Made me think about the dynamic of Sauron and his servants. The Nazgûl were the only ones to be trusted really to give The One back to Sauron without the struggle ( if retrieved ). But Mouth of Sauron or anybody else in Dark Lords service…well that would be interesting indeed.
It is implied that only another Maiar spirit such as Gandalf would be able to withstand Sauron's ability to bend others to his will where the possession of One Ring was concerned.
I'd happily accept that the Mouth would hand it back - even if out of fear or pure servitude - but there might be some inner struggle there. At least with the Ringwraiths it's clear they cannot resist what Sauron wants, and wouldn't dream of it. I've always wondered what would have happened if some creature like Grishnakh found the ring...
Great video, man! Nice
Thanks, Christian!
This was awesome as usual. The Red Book is the best Tolkien channel
Great video - to bad you weren’t consulted for The Rings of Power. I love Tolkien’s lore for its beauty, detail and (generally) internal logic and consistency.
I have always thought of the mouth of sauron almost as a 'horcrux' of sauron. My theory is that its a part of him that he could muster to make a physical form until he could fully fulfil his own therefore the mouth of sauron is literally the mouth of sauron. I know this goes amongst lore in creating a physical being but just made the mouth of sauron seem more menacing in a way
Well done! Thank you
Now that you mention it, we never do see Barliman Butterbur and the Mouth of Sauron at the same time, do we? :)
It's all falling into place!
Man, great work! I must admit, I kind of like the Earnur theory as an idea. There's no way it wouldn't have come up long before the War of The Ring though.
Another great video. In my humble opinion, The Red Book is by far the best Tolkien channel on CZcams together with Girl Next Gondor, but with a distinctively different style. Well done!
Re the Mouth of Sauron, I think this creepy character should be read in the wider context of the true meaning of the Legendarium, that is essentially Tolkien's lifelong deep dive (very deep indeed...) into the nature of men and their complex relationship with Death, Evil and Power developed through the use of Legend and Miths. In this grand, multifaceted painting the Mouth represent possibly one of the scariest aspects of mankind the free, unforced and native lust for absolute evil and power (always two sides of the same coin in Tolkien's secondary world) that characterise some members of our race.
He reminds me of the top Nazi party officials - in most cases average, uninspiring men animated at heart by pure evil who quickly rose to great power by serving and worshipping another sort of real Dark Lord and fell miserably to nothing when his wicked design of absolute world domination crumbled to dust.
Definitley a far more sinister charachter than the Wringwraiths who, at least, could 'claim' the extenuating circumstance of being inslaved to their master's will by the One Ring and had no free will left of their own - not that this justifies their evil actions of course, starting with the freely taken decision of accepting the rings of power to gain more evil knowledge in the first place.
The Mouth is just a man with a truly black heart, and his existence is way more alarming than being the result of an artificial manipulation through the use of 'a machine' such as the ring. In Tolkien's universe, he embodies what Hannah Arendt defined the Banality of Evil in relation to the tragic life arc of the Nazi top dog Adolf Eichmann.
It'd be interesting to know if the catholic Tolkien thought that even this truly dark charachter had, or deserved, a chance of redemption. Unfortunately, we can only speculate and will never know for sure.
I think everyone is worthy of redemption in Tolkien's Legendarium. If figures like Morgoth and Sauron can get offered the chance over and over, then someone like the Mouth would certainly have opportunities. You speak of him much as I did in the video, as someone who was the prime mover in his own corruption. It seems he would refuse his own chance and would have to seek redemption himself -- but he seems like one who would not want it. Maybe like other evil figures, he only finds it in death.
The use of "it is said" or "it is told" or "It is believed" vs is it a fact? is so interesting. What do you think about the songs, especially those sung by the elves, taken as fact? I really enjoyed the thoughtful analysis. Well done!
I think that giving us the minimum of information about a character or person adds to the mystery and/or horror of an evil person.
A lack of information also works for good characters - how interesting would Tom Bombadil be if Tolkien had explained everything about him?
@@tominiowa2513 Very true. I had forgotten about Tom.
Wow this was excellent!
Probably just a living servant, twisted a bit by hanging around Sauron and his doings, possibly even one from one of the dark Numenoran lines that still had some purity in it akin to Aragorn's family line lending to him some greater age and such. Also possible he had access to one of the much lesser rings that Celebrimbor and Annatar created which were reportedly many and varied and which Sauron also tried to recover but for what reason never explained, but possibly for his higher servants or captains to wield; Which may have enhanced his abilities in some way along with twisting him mentally or physically.
Wow what a great video. Many thanks.
I always think there’s something especially interesting about this character because the Mouth of Sauron is an obvious complement to Eye of Sauron. The character also refers to “Sauron the Great” while the Eye is occasionally referred as the Great Eye.
I dont know what that would imply (could Sauron “possess” a mortal?) but I have to imagine Tolkien is suggesting that MoS is far more than a servant. It certainly fits Sauron’s m.o. to hide in plain sight.
I don't think that's the implication at all.
I think "Mouth of Sauron" simply implies that he's a herald proclaiming his master's words. The same way nowadays we call public relations people of a company or organization a "mouthpiece".
1. I agree that the messenger was a ring wraith for the reasons you stated. I will add that I don't think he could've been the Mouth given that he came alone. The Mouth was too important to go alone that far and that would seem beneath his station.
2 & 3 never crossed my mind before. Black Numenoreans originally settled all along the southern coast and I assumed the Mouth was one of their descendants.
Tolkien left mysteries in his world and this is what makes it so captivating; at least for me. All attempts at finite explanations just come off as cheap, but letting our minds wander through the possibilities is exactly what he wanted, I'm sure.
This was a good one. Who knew an in-depth video on a minor creepy character from LOTR could be so engrossing? Not me, I can tell you that. Consider me schooled.
The nickname for the last 2 Bieden press secretarys lol.
Had to be said ;)
Well, I completely agree with all of your lines of thought! And I really enjoyed your relentless logic. The fact was obvious to me - when I first read LOTR fifty years ago. The Mouth is a Numenorean - of descent, sure, but as much as Aragorn is. So, the extra long life is probably there making him and his kind feel superior to ordinary men. But most importantly, he would have a mind hardened into that last phase of Numenorean discontent about not being immortal. Thus the attraction to Sauron. But, and it was ever so with Sauron and Men,and how Sauron hinted at, and then ultimately promised he could deliver immortality. Either him or Melkor. The only kind of immortality Sauron could deliver created hollowed out ghosts, but the Numenoreans were addicts to the idea. I knew he was a man, maybe at least 100+ years old - like any unmixed descendant of Numenor - and probably mentally disturbed... but a man.
Great video. Lots of information covered.
Headcanon in works of fantasy work out the same as UPG in various pagan reconstruction religions, and indeed in religion as a whole; it helps bridge the gape between two seemingly innocuous bits of information. So, it’s understandable that people would want to fill in those gaps. The problem is when they start to believe their own UPG as if it were canon to the story. With the primary author now being dead, we will never have that answer from the primary source of the books.
However, I’d say that the writer and director of the films could be asked their opinion on these events for their films, and those opinions would be equally as relevant to the films as Tolkien’s opinion would be to the books.
I like this Barliman Butterbur in a mask theory.
I should have spent 20 minutes of it on that one...
IT IS SAID by some that the mouth of Sauron was Barliman Butterbur.
"A fat innkeeper who only remembers his own name because people shout it at him all day".
These theory videos are amazing, anthropologically speaking. Talking about textual evidence for theories within a story supposes that the authors or author did indeed have every single angle covered and that every single choice was made to withstand the scrutiny of millions of questioning minds throughout the rest of time. It supposes that there is one answer and that it will reveal itself if we just dig deep enough. It does not, however, seem to allow for the other likely possibility that perhaps the author is fallible. Perhaps the author hadn't got that far in their thinking about what, or who certain plot points meant or where different characters came from. I'm not implying that this video is anything less than awesome. I really think it is! It is such a joy to go over the plot points and I truly love the debate and the level of detail people get into when it comes to this universe, but it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to see the parallels of a friendly disagreement amongst LOTR fans about a character's origins based on differing interpretations of a central sacred text and then flashing forward 20 generations to multiple religious factions at war with each other over those interpretations. The nature of which has become central to their understanding of their over-all religion. Anyway, cool video!
A good description of the theories and well reasoned arguments of why the first is not particularly likely and the second and third are virtually impossible to justify.
It is known that the Nine were seeking Baggins and the Shire, so it is not unreasonable to suppose it might be one of them who went to the Dwarves to find that information. Any other who served Sauron, might, if they found the ring first, claim it for their own. The Nazgul could not.
Really good, thanks
This is good shit. I like just a blanket theory that the Mouth was perhaps a noble Black Numenorean and leave it at that
You brought up a very minor point about Sauron's necromancy there. Perhaps a video on necromancy in the future? Exploring the definition Tolkien is using to distinguish it from more RPG definitions of necromancy, and how figures like Sauron used it, and possible explanations for the various undead entities we do encounter in the Legendarium.
Definitely, that's the plan. I didn't want to start focusing on Sauron's necromancy in the video but I have interesting notes about necromancy, even "possession" and other aspects of Sauron. This will be a future video.
@@TheRedBook Looking forward to that!
Great video, Steven, and have to hand it to you for going into such detail! 👍
Regarding the messenger at Dain's gate, I have always thought he was a Ringwraith, simply because the way he acted and talked was similar to how Ringwraiths behaved in their interactions with people, described in the book before the Council of Elrond. And it fits logically - since at this point in the story it becomes clear that the enemy is after the Ring and his chief agents in this hunt are the Ringwraiths.
As for the Mouth of Sauron, I am perfectly happy with Tolkien's account and not upset in the slightest by "it is told". Not everything has to be explained, and this mystery is what adds edge to the story. And can't "when the Dark Tower rose again" be interpreted as the end of the Third Age when Sauron openly declared himself? That would be shortly before the rule of Denethor II, wouldn't it?
I also like to think he might have been exaggerating his own status a bit before the Captains of the West. Probably in euphoria or anticipation of his lord's favour.
The Barliman Butterbur theory was hilarious, never heard of it before! 🤣 But I do have an x vs. y question for you. I am not normally interested in this type of content, but this one would perhaps make sense: Barliman Butterbur vs. Ioreth, who would outtalk the other? 🤣
Reconstruction of Barad-dûr began in 2951 T.A. 68 years before the Battle of the Morannon, so the Mouth of Sauron being alive for both is entirely reasonable if he was a Black Númenórean with a lifespan on the order of twice that of ordinary men.
@@tominiowa2513 And wouldn't it be more fascinating for his identity to remain unknown, rather than be associated with a known person?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Yes.
Yeah, I have read others saying that the way he acts is more like the Mouth - which I really don't see. Strange how we all read things in different ways isn't it? We are in agreement though.
When it first rose again was about 50 years before Bilbo's party - I think it makes complete sense that he's a man that is in the high double digits in terms of age.
Ioreth would be the undisputed champion there. Even Aragorn seems ready to cast down Anduril over her neck when she won't stop yapping!
@@TheRedBook To tell the truth, it has never even occurred to me that the messenger to the Dwarves could be anyone other than a Ringwraith. And I am not saying this just to please you, it really hasn't.
And I agree about Ioreth. :D
Regarding the Nazgûl's dealings with normal people, I always concluded that they could consciously suppress their "fear aura." I know there's something written in one of the "expanded Legendarium" books (History of Middle-earth, iirc) that seems to imply that their dread was involuntary and uncontrollable, but I just can't believe that they could have travelled around the Shire, questioning and interviewing random hobbits, without causing a massive panic bordering on a crisis if they were projecting the same level of terror as they do during battle. I know their power increased with Sauron's power over time and they would be capable of much larger-scale havoc during the Siege of Gondor than earlier on, and this might seem like a counterpoint. But during the Council of Elrond, Boromir described his soldiers in Osgiliath being taken by a mass hysteria similar to what we see during the final battles of the war, and that was before the Nazgûl came to the Shire. So based on this, I can only thing that Tolkien's idea of their power was that they had at least some control over it, and could reign it in when necessary.
When you put it like that, the Mouth of Sauron almost seems like a prefiguring of the type of human evil we see in the New Shadow. He wouldve been king in Aragorn's place in nearly all but name. Its hard for me to imagine Sauron as a very activist ruler in terms of day to day affairs. Im guessing Middle earth would have been carved up into various fiefdoms ruled by unscrupulous men like him under Sauron. Its been pointed out by others, but you really are a Tolkien fan's Tolkien fan. Its so nice to hear such weighty,though provoking discussion ubder the assumption that we already know the basics. In Tolkiens legendarium the answers are never as simple and straightforward as you think. Im glad you dismantle theories that are just silly but get way more attebtion than they deserve.
Yeah, I was getting some New Shadow vibes when thinking about the Mouth of Sauron as well. Can imagine lesser versions of his ilk making their way north and west if Sauron was victorious. I think sometimes I think everyone knows the basics - so I try to add some little bits of info in the videos for those that don't. Unfortunately, if I went through every detail from the basics up to what I want to discuss, the videos would be like lectures! :D
Really wish we seen more of the Mouth of Sauron in the Peter Jackson epics
Thank you for the video
You're welcome Howie, thanks for watching :)
The nazgul art at like 24:25 really reminds me of the god hand from berserk