The Witch-king | His Downfall and the 'Prophecy' of Glorfindel
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- This video explores the fate of the Witch-king. Was the prophecy of Glorfindel really a prophecy? Was the Witch-king of Angmar responsible for his own death through misunderstanding Glorfindel's words? I look at the fate of Sauron's chief servant and the nature of prophecy and foresight.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:31 - Eärnur and the Battle of Fornost
3:20 - The death of the Witch-king
5:30 - Arrogance and 'invulnerability'
7:59 - "The hand of man"
9:06 - Equivocation, Prophecy, and Foresight
12:33 - Glorfindel's knowledge
13:51 - The inescapable fate of the Witch-king
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#tolkien #witch-king #legendarium #angmar #lotr - Zábava
I bet that Tolkien would appreciate the connection you made in reference to the Witch Kings pride in his perceived invulnerability. Given his Catholic theology permeating his works, and given that pride is what led to satans fall from heaven, the parallel (intentional or no) is undeniable. Excellent work.
Thank you, and it is a common fault of many of the evil figures in his work - just like many of the good figures share common characteristics. With evil figures, pride is always notable as well as impatience!
Love the distinction between “prophecy” and “foresight” (though I’m not sure that’s strictly the right distinction, but there’s no other simple dichotomy that works either). This episode, and particularly that pause by the Witch King when Eowyn reveals her identity, is one of my favorites because every word is so important and impactful.
I get what you mean but I suppose I wanted to establish that there is some difference between the two. From what I read, it seems that many would see Aragorn warning Gandalf about Moria as "prophecy" when I think that is quite ridiculous. I think Glorfindel was showing wisdom and foresight, over seeing who exactly would kill the Witch-king, much like Aragorn wouldn't see Durin's Bane battling Gandalf. Basically, I think it's more complicated than many who see it as the Prophecy of the Witch-king make out.
@Tolkien Lore - I'd love to hear your thoughts on prophecy and foresight though, if you were ever inclined to make a video on a subject like that. I'd find it interesting! Maybe just on the confrontation as you say each word is important and impactful ( I certainly agree there ).
@@TheRedBook I think I did a video on the Witch King and Eowyn, maybe more than one actually in different contexts. On prophecy and such, I’m planning a video on the concepts of fate and free will in light of what was in Nature of ME, and that may lead to some tangential rabbit holes lol.
@@TheRedBook And since Glorfindel didn't expound on his brief statement, we are left debating it.
My belief was always that Glorfindel caught a flash or image of the moment of Witch King's death. Having seen all the dead knights around him but knowing that this was the Witch King's death approaching, Glorfindel could say what he said.
It's clear that the people of LOTR were aware of such things, did not question them and(it seems) also did not ask for explanation. Remember when poor Merry, heartbroken, tells Theoden he'd follow, even on the paths of the dead.
Theoden's reaction is "speak not words of omen!" A rare Tolkien exclamation point.
My understanding was that Glorfindel knew precious little about what his statement meant. Only that it was true, as far as it went.
I think premonition vs prophecy perhaps? Glorfindel has almost a vague “memory
of the future” or a thought given to him - versus looking into a crystal ball - but I think he was trying to save Earnur from his own pride - a warning that was not heeded in years to come - but in the end pride seemed to be the downfall of the witch king himself - so brazen on the battlefield - pride is one of the great enemies of men
I think the Witch-king knew the words spoken by Glorfindel, that made him arrogant and maybe reckless as well. I do love that part when Eowyn declares herself and Witch-king stops in doubt. Such a great moment. Great video as always, very insightful.
A great moment, no adaptation of it has come close to the power of the moment in Tolkien's writing!
Love your videos! Top tier lotr channel, for sure!
Appreciate that :) thank you!
This has fast become my favorite channel on youtube. It is also an interesting topic i always liked the line that the man who crafted Merry's blade would have smiled if he had known the use it would be put to.
Hello again, Greg.
"But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king."
A great line! I wonder how he would feel about it being wielded by a Hobbit as well :D
I hope you enjoyed this video and maybe noticed some new editing choices (this took a bit longer to make compared to my other videos!). How do you view the death of the Witch-king and Glorfindel's words? Do you think Glorfindel's words led the Ringwraith to his death? Share your thoughts and ideas for other videos!
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Wow, so many points to consider, so many thoughts to say! Where do I even begin?
Firstly, thank you for your clear distinction between 'prophesy' and 'foresight'. I never thought much of either concept on Middle-Earth, but you've made clear the differences. Indeed, I believe Glorfindel's words were foresight like Aragorn and Elrond, but because of his nigh-Maia stature, said words were *nigh-prophecy* in their ultimate fulfillment.
Secondly, I am much les optimistic on what The Free Peoples of Middle-Earth were supposed to take away from Glorfindel's words. Yes, his words mean that one day, the Witch-King will be slain independent of Man's martial might, so have faith and hope. But it also means that until then, the Witch-King *is* indeed unstoppable by Man and his conventional ways, so don't tempt fate thinking that you're 'The Chosen One' or something!
Thirdly, the ambiguity on interpreting Glorfindel's words, and the events leading to their fulfillment, is part of the fascinating mystery of Greco-Roman and even Judeo-Christian mythology. To what extent is mankind responsible for his own agency, or subjected to forces beyond our control? For me, his words did not mean the Witch-King was undefeatable in battle or physically impervious to all damage if he fought 'Man'. Like his master Sauron, the Witch-King could be routed and physically bested by the most exceptional of commanders and warriors, respectively. *Glorfindel's words predicted that eventually, he would place himself in the worst scenario possible, where he would inexplicably end up getting killed in a way that bypasses his supernatural defences and puts his cruel arrogance to shame.* Whether he acted in arrogance or ignorance, he ultimately would have placed himself in such a situation; if it wasn't Eowyn and Merry at the Pelennor Fields, it would have been somebody else, somewhere else.
Ideas for other videos:
1) In a battle between Saruman the White and Radagast the Brown riding Gwaihir, who would win? 😉
2) Sentience in created artifacts, e.g.:
- How does the One Ring figure out Gollum as it bearer is a dead end, or this is the time to slip off Isildur's finger to get him shot by orcs?
- How does a Silmaril choose who and who not to burn?
- How does a Palantir recognize Aragorn as a "rightful user"? Presumably not by requesting a user name, password, mother's maiden name, name of first pet, and high school attended.
- How does the rope provided to Samwise in Lothlórien know to untie the knot holding it at the top of the cliff so he can keep it to use?
As for the editing, it always looks Hollywood level to me and I live about 5 miles from Hollywood. lol
My take on these kind of things is that Eru always has a plan and uses Elves and Men to fulfill his plans. So, of course, whether he directly planted the idea in Glorfindel's mind or he told Manwe to tell Glorfindel, Glorfindel was meant to say those words to Earnur when he did. I think that it was just as important that Earnur not die at that time trying to kill the Witch King (which I think would have happened) as it was important that the words of the "prophesy" be spoken.
Enjoyed this one a lot, I think the way you made these connections in Tolkien's work was very well done!!!
You're ready for Greek mythology, next 👍
An interesting aspect in the dialogue between Eowyn and the witch King is the quote about the Houses of lamentation:
"Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
I imagine these halls of lamentation are more of an aspect of the unseen world, more specifically the wraith world. This reminded me of a sort of circle of hell from Dante's Divine Comedy. In this case it would be like Melkor's version of the Halls of Mandos. As this houses were places of torture for transforming living beings into spectres.
Even the Orcs seemed to have a (hellish) notion of this "afterlife":
"Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side"
Is Gorbag talking about the abyss/hell?
I think the Houses of Lamentation threat is the passage I most remember from the BBC Audio recordings of LOTR I listened to when I was young(er). At the time I assumed it was some horrible but physical dungeon-castle where the Nazgul would torment hapless (but living) captives.
@@BenFrayle In my opinion, the point highlighted in this quote seems to indicate that the Orcs possessed (or had been introduced by Sauron) a kind of "belief" or supernatural knowledge of an afterlife intended for them.
A manifestation of a semi-omniscient tyrant: the all-seeing eye, the watchful eye of Sauron, the terrifying and constant presence of a being that does not even appear, but the instilled and totalitarian idea of watchfulness and control similar to the controlling deities of the our myths.
Now, this "cursed hope" is found in a sphere that differs (I believe) even from the understanding once defended by Melkor himself in the dialogue with Húrin: "There is no life after death, only emptiness" (it reminded me a little of the concept of MU - the Nothingness). Thus, it seems to me that Sauron uses such a strategy, a "partial code of conduct (a possible introduction to a cursed-religion?)" instituted by a being of divine origin, aimed at the Orcs who must follow the orders of the "bosses" on pain of suffering eternal and irrevocable torment (and what the hell).
I've always inwardly battled with who was more important in the Death of Angmar. Merry, and the knife of Cardolan or Eowyn and the sword of Rohan ? I do love the way that Tolkien weaves a whole lot of ancient history into this scene in various ways. Possibly why its one of my fave scenes in LOTR.
Indeed I agree with your analysis and Tolkien's point. In the end this prophecy isn't too disimilar to how the prophecies in the Bible/Torah work. From 2nd Esdras to Revelations it's not that different by it's nature.
I almost went with biblical prophecy, or some examples of classical mythology but I thought the Macbeth example was a good one to demonstrate my point :)
@@TheRedBook i mean the macbeth one is the trigger for it so it appropriate
True 'prophecy' or precognition requires that predestination is in effect. For if the future is already laid out then it might be discerned, otherwise everything is just guessing.
@@TheRedBook it was a brilliant choice
@@BenFrayle ish.
The Music of the Ainur, does in a sense create a type of predestination. Certain things must happen. But the questions of who will do what, when, and exactly how: these are left open. People have to chose to take up certain fates. In the books, Aragorn isn’t the only character who could release the Oathbreakers: ensuring victory at the Pelennor Fields. Elladan and Elrohir follow him through the Paths of the Dead for this exact reason: they are the failsafe. But if one of them did release the Oathbreakers, he would be claiming Isildur’s legacy: and therefore choosing to be counted among Men. As Elrond’s son, he would have just as strong a claim to the throne of Gondor as Aragorn does and the healing hands to prove it. The prophecy says “the crownless again shall be King”: and this seems very straightforward. It must refer to the Chieftains of the Dúnedain right? Except no, because Elendil was only able to claim the legacy of Elros Tar-Minyatûr (upon the death of Tar-Miriel, his last direct patrilineal descendent) due to the fact that Elrond had chosen immortality (and had no children at that point). But in point of fact, Elrond’s sons had the greater claim to the reunited Kingdom: if one was willing to choose mortality. But, seeing how that turned out for their father and uncle: it is perhaps unsurprising that Elladan and Elrohir considered this a nuclear option. Hence everyone trying very strenuously to get Aragorn to fulfill “his” destiny. So that maybe, for once, the end of an Age wouldn’t be any sadder than was absolutely necessary. The ends of the First and Second Ages were definitely a lot sadder than was absolutely necessary. Maedhros and Maglor did NOT have to attack the Havens in order for the War of Wrath to happen. Eärendil and Elwing were already going to sail to Valinor with the Silmaril. And Isildur very much could have thrown the Ring into Orodruin. Or Cirdan might have decided that becoming a kinslayer was better than letting Sauron live: and pushed Isildur in. Which while sad, would have meant that the entire War of the Ring needn’t happen. Although on the flip side, this also means that Thranduil invades Erebor: since no orc army shows up to the Battle of Five Armies. So yeah, that’s two very powerful elf lords that end up doing less than virtuous things. Which is ominous. Oh yes, and Galadriel never gets her chance to redeem herself.
This channel is yet more proof that the best content on CZcams isn't necessarily the most popular.
I may have to agree with you there ;) !
Thanks for the compliment!
Yours is my favorite channel on the legendarium of Tolkien. Thank you for all the work you put into these videos. I love your perspective.
The art you use, it’s just so fitting to you. And your channel. Thank you for doing this. I tell my buddies you’re like a preacher of Tolkien’s writing, with your knowledge and insight. And I just have nothing but praises for every video I’ve seen of yours. It’s next level. Truly.
I love the freshness of the topics and perspectives of this Tolkien lore channel - another excellent and thought provoking video
Thank you very much Tom :)
What a fantastic and through provoking video. I had never thought about the doubt he may have felt on Weathertop before when confronted by Frodo's words of power. Again you prove that this channel is top tier of the Tolkien lore, if not THE best for us that require a little more than talking about Jackson's horrible movies. Have finally subscribed/'joined' on the strength of this one- great stuff.
Thank you very much :) I'm glad this is a haven for Tolkien fans haha. Guaranteed that it will be his works I will be discussing on this channel.
Such a well thought out analysis!
Thanks, Andrew :)
Very interesting, I would like to know how you would interpret the prophecy that Huan could only be killed by the greatest Werewolf that ever lived and how that also affected his fight against Sauron? Similar to what happened with the Witch King of Angmar. It would be wonderful to know your thoughts on this particular matter.
That's a very interesting topic for a video - not just because of the prophecy that said he would only be killed by the greatest wolf who lived but also because he was only permitted to speak 3 times before his death.
It's another case of a figure attempting to fulfill a prophecy, failing, but it leading to the fulfillment of it in the end (Sauron's failure as a shapeshifting wolf compared to Carcharoth who was the greatest). The fact he could speak three times makes it seem like those three times were all going to be of importance, leading to his death but after achieving something to get to that point. I think it would be good to discuss that in a video - it's a very First Age prophecy compared to the Witch-king one, at a time when the Legendarium was very mythological in feel.
Beorn>huan
Nice work dude thanks
You bring an interesting point at the end. Glorfindel's words could have been taken as warning of the Witch-king's inevitable downfall. Yet the fear it inspired in others fills him with hubris and overconfidence, tying him down to his fate. You spoke very well in the past about how important fear is to the Nazgul, and here we can see how they gravitate towards it. Perhaps this shows the divine purpose behind that moment of foresight. The prophecy enhanced his ability to terrorize men for a while, but in indulging in that terror and exposing himself, the Witch-king assures his own destruction in a critical moment of the war. In a way, he accepted the doom Glorfindel announced.
As for Glorfindel, I always interpreted him as "channeling" knowledge he didn't fully understand, but knew with absolute certainty that it was true as he spoke. With his own wisdom he could perhaps decrypt some aspects of what was revealed to him and guess at its meaning, but that operation would come after the fact, and be limited by his regular mental faculties (as opposed to divine inspiration).
awesome cool vid loved it and found it really interesting
Fantastic as ever. Thank you.
Thank you :)
Ah, yes. Correlation does not equal causation just as predicting the future does not mean influencing it. Great job Steve, you are morphing into an entertainer. Reminds me of one of my favourite rap albums of the 90s, Edutainment by BDP.
Last thing I want is for the content to be boring! I could just put this stuff as a podcast but I like making the videos look at least decent enough to keep people engaged. I seem to spend a lot of time on that part of it now, meaning it takes longer to make each video. I used to be able to do 2 a week but I am barely doing 1 a week now :O
@@TheRedBook The colours are a great addition. Regarding the output I feel neutral - I like when my favourite channels don't upload more than I can handle, but for this niche of Tolkien legendarium videos you raised the bar so high that I am quite spoiled. Other cerebrally potent creators such as Dan (VoG) and Lexi (GnG) upload considerably less, so the need is not saturated yet 😁
I think I've got enough different playlists that I can make any type of content - which is good. Some takes a bit less time. I think there wouldn't be more than a 2 week wait for content on this channel -- if things continue as they are. The Legendarium ones are my favourite to make but I like the others and still need to make a good one for the debate playlist as well.
Great video, especially liked the reference to sources outside the Legendarium!
Thanks, Anna. Yeah, I've been able to do that with a few videos - My Ancalagon one allowed me to reference the Norse Sagas as well. I never thought I'd be referencing the Bard though :D
@@TheRedBook Didn't Tolkien blame him for depreciating the whole notion of elves? :D
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 There are a few comments attributed to Tolkien about Shakespeare. Mostly from when he was quite young to be honest.
@@TheRedBook The "rehabilitation" of elves by Tolkien would tie in with my previous question/video request on whether or not elves that stay too long in Middle Earth and fade are the elves of traditional folklore or not.
A+ on the audio/text narration. I'm not sure if there's a seperate place for it, but the people involved most certainly deserve some credit. ✌
Yes, that's all the work of one man. I credit him in the description of every video, even in the ones I don't use the audio.
Oh wow, my fault in skipping over that. In most of the videos the audio is well done, but this one particularly just drew me in to each word.
Yeah I certainly wouldn't take credit for the audiobook performances! I'll perhaps work out a way to credit in the videos themselves.
Good stuff!
Thanking you :)
This is the best masterpiece 🔥
Gods this channel is great!
I love the last line of the death of the Witch King. That his final cry "was never heard again in that age of this world". It sort of leaves it open doesn't it? He doesn't say never again full stop he says never again in THAT age. The 4th age came fairly soon after this event... It leaves it a tiny bit open that the Witch King may have returned in some fashion at a later date. Makes his trailing thin shriek all the more eerie as he fades into nothing.
There are some other examples of "foresight", mostly named as such and all from the Northern Dunedain:
Gilraen's parents both foresee that Aragorn's father will die soon.
Aragorn foresees that Elrond will leave Middle-Earth.
Before taking the Paths of the Dead he foresees that he will meet Eomer again.
Entering the Paths, Halbarad foresees that his death lies beyond them.
I've heard that such foresight, always predicting a death, sometimes still happens in the Scottish Highlands. I think you are right to place Glorfindel's words in this tradition, maybe a slightly magnified version of it
Thank you!
Wow I love this
Good stuff. I see Glorfindels words more as foresight than prophecy. The parallels with Macbeth are clear and indeed both men are brought low by their misinterpretation of words spoken about them. Foresight among the elves is not limited only to Glorfindel, Galadriel is probably the most famous example. I feel like this foresight comes from them being so closely in tune with parts of the music of the Ainur. Many of the darkest themes of the third age are bound up with the witch king of Angmar. An idea of how this theme might naturally end is not a far fetched thing for Glorfindel to have. Your explanation might be better though. Thanks and keep up the good work.
As with most prophecies, there is always a bit of vagueness in their statement and a twist in their resolution. What is meant by "fall". Easy to assume it means death, but does it? Stabbed behind the knee, he is staggered and falls. What is meant by "man". The race of man, a male? The witch king is ultimately brought down by a Hobbit and a Woman. A delicious end to one of the biggest baddies of Middle Earth. Another example of epic story telling in the vein of the old style, and a twist out of left field when all looks hopeless. Thanks for the great analysis.
Thoughtful
Epic video
Thanks :D
Thats the funny thing about visions and prophesy "Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them."
Yes, they appear in so many mythologies and stories and always have a part in some of the most fascinating stories.
Is that from the chapter "the mirror of Galadriel"?
@@Aurora-qn2dx Yes, (in truth the quote I used doesn't quite fit the ideas presented in the video) but I thought it was worth mentioning since the concepts of vision and foresight were brought up
Outstanding reading at 4:26
Yes, I'm very happy I get to use Phil's audiobooks!
@@TheRedBook have you got a link to where we can buy them? I'm looking for the history of middle earth audiobooks.
Unfortunately not, Phil doesn't sell those LotR... He'd get sued if he did. But they can be found online, including Spotify. HoMe doesn't have any audiobooks yet.
Great video. The chat came to an end for me so I don't know if my second comment on prophecy as a weapon went through.
Does the live chat continue after the video ends? Aka... Q&A for afters
The chat can continue for a little while after the video ends but briefly. They allow you to link the video straight into another video - a good opportunity for live Q&A's etc. It's something I most likely won't be doing on the channel though. And yeah, I read the comment - it's an interesting thought. The best weapon against the Witch-king seemed to be his own arrogance.
@@TheRedBook Sauron is defeated by his misconception that no one would want to destroy power so he could never be killed. Not sure if that is 100% sound but its a recurring theme
@@TheRedBook Other channels (not just Tolkien related) that answer questions off the chat in a "livestream" video generally end up with an hour's worth of content over 2 to 3 hours, with that content being of lower quality than their scripted content.
@@tominiowa2513 Rain on my parade why don't you! Yeah, you have a point. Its just frustrating because The Red Book videos provoke questions and new ideas and Steve knows his shit better than most (and certainly me).
@@tominiowa2513 - yeah, I am not planning on attempting such a thing. I would take too long to answer questions and I'd feel bad if someone asked a question I couldn't be bothered answering haha like "Who would win, Saruman at full powerzzz or Radagast riding Gwaihir!"
I like how you compared the prophesy in Shakespeares Macbeth to this and pointed out the similarities...these prophesies in stories are almost like riddles.. I think Only genius and Grand writers use prophesies well to shape their stories and make their works interesting.. and this one really shaped a character..funny how he thought he was invincibile but doubt always loomed over him at the same time. The artwork was wonderful in the video..Witch kings armour is an awsome looking..probably the best designed villain also in Peter Jacksons films also.
I always get hung up on this: If the gift of man is death and getting to be part of the 2nd music, then why are good deeds always rewarded with more power, influence and life in Arda? You can't really blame men for feeling shafted a little bit, or at least alienated.
its a gift literally no one is jealous of...
Tolkien is quite clear that a lot of the time these gifts were a mistake - giving the Númenóreans long lives was to allow them to enjoy the fruits of their labour that bit longer. It was never meant to turn into an even greater jealousy of Immortality. The Valar are not infallible (clearly) and it seems that gifting some Men with longer life can lead them to crave even more. Those with power seeking more power. They grew so great that they didn't want to leave behind what they made with their blessing.
@@TheRedBook - Speaking of which, I would quite like a video on why Elros chose “the gift of man,” especially knowing that it would separate him from his brother. (The in-universe explanation, as opposed to authorial convenience after mistakenly double booking Elrond.)
Good presentation. Why in military training every word spoken has to be weighed to reduce the chance of an unfavorable outcome. The Knife hand to point out errors with no finger pointing back at the speaker. Every class I memorized had to be presented to a Murder board of Higher position instructors and commanders. Words spoken have powers both for good and evil. Tolkien saw war first hand he understood the devastation of ill planned speech sending thousand forward to death. He also saw speech focused to a knife edge get great results. Such is Glorfindel's effect with a command voice statement to a receptive mind.
Greek mythology also gives us the story of Achilles, which has parallels to this part of Tolkien's work. In a way, they are illustrations of the old adage: 'Pride goeth before a fall.' And in the Roman Catholic list of the 7 deadly sins, if I am not mistaken, pride is the most mortal of sins.
The unfortunate consequence of Tolkien's ages spanning thousands of years is that it's unavoidable some years are years of our own time. I can't not imagine Glorfindel in 1975, smoking a cigarette on the hood of his Pontiac Grand Prix saying "Nah, no dude will ever get him."
For some reason i haven't gotten notifications on your last few videos, been happening regularly recently on many channels, i agree man in the traditional meaning or context included woman, male or female is different man is supposed to be a shorter version of human i believe
There's a little bell that can be clicked when you subscribe. That ensures notifications. Many don't see it or click it so they don't get all notifications. I don't know why CZcams doesn't do it automatically :(
@@TheRedBook cheers
The idea of prophecy is also prominent in Celtic mythology as well. Nuada, the first king of the Gods, for example, is also called Iriel Faith, which means “prophet” or seer”. There are many cases of prophecy in Celtic folk lore, including the death of Balor, and the Morrigan’s prophecy about the end of the world. It wasn’t just Greeks and Romans who had mythology.
Good video, by the way. Really well put together.
Of course, prophecy is prominent in just about every mythology I've encountered. Mentioning Greek just neatly tied in with the point I was making and is probably more familiar to most of the audience. I was going to give examples related to Cronos or Cassandra but I thought I didn't need to after talking about Macbeth for a little bit. And those interested in mythology from my part of the world know of Nuada, certainly :D
@@lowlandnobleman6746 Thank you :)
Good food for the mind! I like the analogy with Macbeth's prophecy - indeed this must be where Tolkien drew inspiration from.
I used to think that it is neither foresight nor prophecy, but a chain of cause and effect - just a domino causing other dominos to fall. Glorfindel could simply say that out of a desire to protect Eärnur from rash actions, meaning that the Witch-king was too strong to be killed by a man. The Witch-king could then take it as a sign of his invincibility and fall victim to his arrogance - just like every evil character in Tolkien's world, and so much like Sauron who did not believe that someone would refuse the power of the One Ring and walk around Mordor seaking to destroy it.
But it may also be concidered Glorfindel's foresight, as you say, since if it was not exactly Eowyn who killed the Witch-king, but mostly his own arrogance, he did not literally fall by the hand of a man (or a woman, or a halfling).
Nice thoughts here. I've never believed it was Glorfindel just protecting Earnur but that could certainly be argued. We could even expand upon what you say about who was the cause of his fall. You have said the Witch-king himself is responsible , though he's still a man, but it's a poetic thought. One could even argue Glorfindel was responsible through his words - and he's not a "man".
And the Witch-king is much like his master, who is in turn like his own master, always making decisions and shaping opinions based on arrogance and ego. I wonder if Sauron had heard the words of Glorfindel and what he'd think about them..
@@TheRedBook I guess Sauron would understand Glorfindel's words the way the Witch-king did - alas, they all step on the same rake... I could even imagine that, being a kind of extension of Sauron's will, the Witch-king could have been influenced by him in the way he interpreted these words.
Regarding the cause of his fall, in my opinion, if it was his arrogance, than it was not exactly him to blame, but a certain trade of his character. The way I see it, the fact that he fell due to his own mistake or a trade of character excludes the possibility of falling from anyone's *hand* (but, as you said, that is very poetic). Also, if Tolkien meant that the Witch-king laid the foundation of his downfall by his own hands, than maybe he did not concider a Nazgul a man anymore. After all, there was so little left of a man in him - if at all.
It could be interpreted that way. Despite us knowing they were men, Tolkien seems to make a distinction when speaking of the Mouth of Sauron, saying that this was no Ringwraith but a living man. He seems to consider Ringwraiths as something "other" once they have reached that stage of existence - barely being human anymore it seems...
@@TheRedBook Yes, it is quite logical: they don't have a physical body, human feelings and needs, free will, they are neither dead nor alive, and we don't know if Eru's gift can still be extended to them, so their essence is very different from human.
@@neant2046 The Nazgûl must have physical bodies (but only visible in the unseen realm) since they can interact with physical objects (unlike the Oathbreakers who are visible but cannot interact with physical objects).
Another great video, thanks!
So, my first thought is that we should at least consider the possibility that Glorfindel said what he said to Eärnur simply to stop Eärnur from pursuing a foe he had little chance of defeating. In that case, it worked, at least for a while, but the law of unintended consequences reared its ugly head. Glorfindel's prophecy may well have turned out to be of the self-fulfilling variety and quite possibly the Witch King could have been destroyed earlier if the belief that no man could slay him had not spread around.
For my part, I've always interpreted foresight as the ability to see the more likely outcomes of something beyond what most people would consider normal. However, those more likely outcomes are not guaranteed to happen. There may also be multiple possible outcomes that fit what was said. So, perhaps Pippin arrives at the gates of Minas Tirith a couple of minutes later than he did in the book and consequently Gandalf has taken off in pursuit of the Witch King, whereupon the Witch King finds out that challenging a powerful Maia to combat was a really bad idea. Or perhaps events unfolded quite differently and at some point the Witch King led an assault on Lothlórien and discovered just how powerful Galadriel really was. Perhaps when Sauron re-emerged in Mordor after the fall of Númenor, the Valar decided this was really their problem after all so Oromë takes out the Witch King while Tulkas drops Sauron and his ring into Mount Doom. Or maybe the prophecy isn't fulfilled at all. Aragorn meets the Witch King in combat at the Pelennor fields and it turns out Anduril works even better against the Witch King than it did as Narsil against Sauron. You still have to allow for what may come from free will even though prophecy or foresight says otherwise.
P.S. You are finding some truly amazing artwork to use in your videos. I particularly like the one "I'm no man by Diego Cunha.
This has to discounted though: Glórfindel himself could have defeated the Witch-King. If he was considered an equal by Maiar, he had more than enough power. As well, the Sindarin language he was speaking has entirely different words for “a male” (of any race) and “a human” (of any gender). Since Glórfindel is including himself in his prophecy, we must assume he says “the hand of a male” not “the hand of a human”. Glórfindel of course, knew his share of badass warrior women in his day. But the Witch-King would naturally discount the possibility of being killed by a woman as absurd. Tolkien’s villains chronically underestimate women, always to their detriment: and Glórfindel would be well aware of this tendency, having observed it happen multiple times. It’s not as if the Witch-King is immune to being attacked by a man (Aragorn drives him and the others off at Weathertop by wielding flaming brands). However, he would underestimate a woman opponent: and therefore be more likely to take a lethal blow. In fact this could simply be deduction from experience on Glórfindel’s part, rather than any sort of prophecy or foresight.
@@sophiejones3554 One female in Middle Earth in the Third Age that the Witch King would not take lightly would be Galadriel, since he would be able to see that she carried (similar to Glorfindel) the _Light of the Trees_ .
The other female he would respect (but avoid the same way apex predators of different species try to avoid each other) would be Shelob.
I always wondered why frodo couldn't control the nazgul on weathertop when he wore the one ring.
Tolkien answers this in a couple of ways. There is a letter where he mentions Frodo claiming the One Ring in Mordor and how the Nazgul wouldn't harm Frodo if they caught him but would feign serving him while bringing him out of Mount Doom and delivering him to Sauron because he wouldn't yet be THE Lord of the Rings. Of course, Frodo hasn't claimed the ring on Weathertop, he is just the Ringbearer. This means that he can't command them because he hasn't attempted to command them or use the power of the ring in that way.
This is repeated by Galadriel who answers Frodo when he asks why he can't read the thoughts of other Ringbearers. Galadriel says he hasn't tried to and he shouldn't as he would need to strengthen his will and focus on domination in order to achieve that.
Basically, Frodo didn't try to control them and most likely couldn't at that point in time if he tried.
If the Witch-King did not die "by the hand of a man" was it emotions that killed him? Eowyn's loyalty and love for her uncle, Merry's Hobbit loyalty and devotion to his friends, and the Witch-King's pride and arrogance, despite his doubts about attacking Eowyn as she was not a man.
There was a potential magical component to the dagger Merry wielded that allowed for the Witchking to be killed through a sword the way he died.
I think you're doing a hell of a job fun to listen even if I don't think you're spot on we all have are own mindset lot of fun 🤗
My theory is that it was the blade of westenesse merry was carrying that killed the witch king. Or wounded him to the point that he could be finished off , technically not relevant to the video exactly
Hi, tried googletranslater but nit work 4 me so..Hej, man skulle kunna leka med tanken att efter det att Treebeard så att säga sjungit Hobbitar in i listan över midgårds olika folkslag det skulle göra dem till något eget, inte män. Nice work 2 U👌
Hallå!
jag pratar svenska - oroa dig inte :D. Det är en fin idé!
Tolkien knew how to play with words . It sais " not by the hand of man" , where the words: " hand" and "man" are both in the singular form. And so it was because he didn't die by the " hand" of "man" but by the " hands" of " men", Merry and Eowyn being both from the race of men/ humans. Not one " hand " of "man" killed him but several hands of two men. This means that he could' ve been killed any time with the condition they were more than one.
This is also an aspect of Tolkiens work: winning by combined forces.
I noticed this because in my native language it was translated in the book as " the hand of a single mortal man".
Just my humble opinion✌️
Since you say English is not your native language, this may make sense. However, it would be poor writing for Tolkien to say "of man" if he was just meaning one person. He'd say "of a man". It doesn't work without that "a" in there. He'd have said "Not by the hand of a man" or "Not by the hand of one man", something like that. But it is the nature of prophecy/foresight to be vague.
The Macbeth analogy is a very likely source for the Witch-King's death prophecy, and would be very British of Tolkien to use. In any case, the story is clearly meant as an example of how NOT to interpret a prophecy, particularly out of arrogance.
But what really strikes me about the story is the character of Earnur, and how unlike most modern heroes he is. In today's heroic stories, you just don't see people willing to risk their lives over a challenge or a dare (at least if they want to go on living), or to hold a years-long grudge over something like being laughed at in the middle of a battle. Our blood just doesn't boil this way anymore, when it used to be considered a measure of one's manhood. Our ideas have changed.
Eärnur strikes me as more of a Boromir than a Faramir. Pride becoming intertwined with honour and such. Eärnur held that grudge but falsely thought that his enemy shared the same honour he did. Imagine walking into Minas Morgul against the Witch-king thinking you were going to battle in some honourable 1 vs 1 duel? He was probably slain by the slaves of the Witch-king and not the opponent he wanted to face. Eärnur shows that not all the kings were gifted with wisdom - despite him having honour.
@@TheRedBook True enough, but my intended point is a different one: that once upon a time, Earnur’s behavior and attitudes were considered not only heroic, by the only natural way for a man to behave. Nowadays, it’s incomprehensible to us.
@@TheSaneHatter Do you think Tolkien was meaning for him to be considered an heroic figure?
@@TheRedBook Maybe, maybe not: this could easily be a subtle criticism. But such characterization *was* the norm in heroic fiction for centuries, including many of Tolkien’s sources of inspiration. Yet today, it’s completely abnormal to us. That’s my main point.
So falls the Witch-King of Angmar, Lord of the Nazgûl, Lieutenant of Sauron, of the Mighty Knee!
They were all of them deceived...for there was another knee.
@@TheRedBook "Back then I was a wraith just like you... then I took a Hobbit to the knee"
I'm suddenly back in 2011!
I think the witch king may not have perished. In the footnote of letter 246 to Eileen Elgar sometime between september and october in 1963 Tolkien says "The Witch-King had been reduced to impotence". "As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then... a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West,... passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but... it was a cry of woe..., ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom." Normally the nazgul cannot fly so I think it might be the Witch-King but I'll admit it's probably another Nazgul on a fell beast.
That laugh of witch king of mockery on Eärnur was a terrible psychic attack. It’s soo sad because Eärnur had the bravery to withstand the terror but due to others not being of the same order of him, he was mocked upon. N that really scarred him because it’s almost like his kind betrayed him when he most needed them n this vulnerability was mocked upon by his chief foe. I don’t think anyone talked about these things in the level during his time to actually heal this wound so he had to fall prey to the sorcerer witch king. His whole story is soo tragic. N why I absolutely abhor witch king n their kind. But now in middle earth people are actually talking about mk ultra n how to shield from psychic attacks and to heal from them. Example of how evil leads to good being born.
What I don't understand is how the witch king could actually die if the rings gave kind of eternal life, or prolongued the existence of the bearers.
If it was because it was Sauron who had them, shouldn't they have died long before, when Sauron took them?
The rings preserved but didn't protect the bearers from damage or harm. They just preserved but in the case of mortals this had the effect of prolonging life until every moment felt like weariness.
By the time Sauron took them back, the Ringwraiths had completely faded and were now slaves to his will. Despite not carrying the rings, they were now bound to the rings. Much like how Sauron was still in rapport with the One despite it not being in his possession, it was essentially his until it was destroyed or another mastered it. Such was the corruption of the Nine that when they had their rings taken back, they still "owned" them.
@@TheRedBook Thank you
I think you are correct. It is probable that Earnur did not bear a weapon that could undo the magic that bound the wraith to his Ring. He certainly did not have a mount that could withstand the terror and Black Breath of the Witch King. So, Glorfindel makes his famous prophesy as much to save Earnur from his own recklessness as to speak to the eventual end of the Lord of the Nazgul. At least Glorfindel bought Earnur another 125 years before his pride killed him. I suppose that anyone who had a dagger or weapon of Westernesse (?) to unravel the Ring's preserving power from the Nazgul and another ally to do the killing could have succeeded in slaying the Witch King. It was just that Merry and Eowyn were the first to have both the courage, will, and specific tools to bring the Morgul Lord to his final doom.
Likely anyone with sufficient power in the spirt realm could destroy a Nazgûl, e.g., if Manwë had sent Eönwë to remind Sauron of his long overdue appointment with the Council of the Valar, all nine would not have afforded Sauron any real protection.
Feels like it is quite the Greek Tragedy style prophecy.
One that comes to pass because of people's actions due to their interpretation of the prophecy and due to their flawed understanding they put themselves in the very situation that cause the prophecy to come true.
*Edit*
Should have listened to the whole video before commenting
I bet Gandalf would have been the one to smoke The Witch King at Pelanor Fields if Pippen hadn't stopped him to save Faramir. I think that was Gandalf's plan because he knew he was 'no man' either so the foresight would still be accurate
I thought the "prophecy" had more to do with the fact that the Ring Wraiths were tied to the One Ring and without that being destroyed the Wraiths would keep on going. I am pretty sure given enough time, the Witch King would have returned from the injuries he sustained at the Pelennor Fields.
I thought that too once but after reading drafts of The Lord of the Rings there is some interesting text about the Witch-king following his defeat, specifically mentioning that he is gone and wouldn't come back. I once thought he was the Ringwraith that was seen and heard returning to Mordor but it turns out he's not.
Kill a Nazgûl is a complicated task. Why? Well, in the fellowship of the ring, the flood of Bruinen (with the use of Elrond's ring and Gandalf 'magic') didnt destroy the 8 Nazgûl. Only the Horses.
The shot of Legolas' bow at Anduin river killed the fellbeast, the Nazgûl fell from a high height and he didnt die.
I think that only "magical" or special weapons (like the sword used by Merry) could harm the ghosts of Sauron. There is a quote from Gandalf about this matter:
"But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine".
This video isn't really about how to kill a Ringwraith - though that's certainly an interesting topic.
I use that quote often, when people argue about the scene from the Hobbit films. Tolkien is a figurative, ambiguous author. When he says 'devices of Saruman', I don't think that literally means an object or that Saruman himself drove out the Necromancer. It could just simply mean, as the head of the White Council, Saruman finally decided to act against the forces of Dol-Guldur.
I am more concerned with what actually happened, how was he killed if his ring is not destroyed? If he is just uncloaked then the same happened at Bruinen
Could have been a statement of anger meaning he was going to kill him himself for he was no man
Prophecy usually works this way in fiction. People in real life tend to regard it as seeing a possible future-why else would anyone patronize a fortune teller-so it stands to reason people in fiction would too.
I suppose a difference is that in the Legendarium, prophecy, foresight, and fate are very real things!
for the algorithm
That pesky algorithm is cheating me out of views again :D
Greek mythology, yes like Cassandra in the iliad
I like your view of this. The "prophecy" always bothered me for several reasons. I hate how prophecies are treated in fiction, and that they only work that way in fiction. In real life, the vast majority of actual prophecies do not come true, and the vast majority of supposedly fulfilled prophecies are jury-rigged after the fact or even back-dated (like the ones that are accurate in Daniel). Then in fiction, 100% of prophecies are literally fulfilled, except they sometimes rely on technicalities of wording at the reveal. I mostly like Tolkien and LotR, so I didn't like what seemed to me like a stupidly clichéd prophecy. Your view leaves more room and hits the exact point that's important to me: a male human _could_ have defeated the witch king under other circumstances. In fact, it seems to me that the maker of the blade has to count as crucial to that kill, and that maker was a human, possibly male. It was originally made for a human warrior to use, and that warrior could have killed the witch king, regardless of gender. Thanks for your discussion.
Controversial opinion: The witch king did not truly die until the one ring was destroyed.
I used to think that as well to be honest. Until I read a passage from HoMe. I might cover that in the future!
It's inescapable that the Eowyn and Merry are of the race of Man, as was the blade which Merry used from the Barrow Downs (a Westernesse weapon of the Numenorean Faithful made during the war against Angmar). These arguments of what canon intends or what it 'means' are unnecessary. Tolkien's writings are internally inconsistent; this is especially true between Hobbit/LotR against all that came elsewhere. Period. It doesn't mean it's 'flawed.' The Gospels themselves are contradictory accounts in important places. Whatever Glorfindel prognosticated was just fuckin wrong!
I'd never say discussing what something means is 'unnecessary'. These are just my thoughts on this put to video. You have the opinion that Glorfindel was wrong - I don't quite share that opinion - but again, the whole idea behind this channel is for me to share my thoughts about things. I never claim to be the Authority - though I try to back up what I say.
What language was Glorfindel speaking in, and did the word translated to "man" have the same ambiguity as it does in 20th Century English?
I agree with the Red Book on this. Glorfindel wasn't wrong, people just interpreted him incorrectly. Eowyn and Merry are of the race of Man, yes, and the dagger of Westernesse was made by Men. But that wasn't what the prophecy meant. It wasn't referring to the race of Man (capital M), it was referring to man (small m), as in a male. Glorfindel knew it was a woman who would strike the killing blow. The misinterpretation of the prophecy is what gave it power and made the Witch-king think he was invincible.
@@TheRedBook My feeling is that you approach Tolkien from the perspective that all Tolkien's works have to be consistent and 'true' so that what's written about Glorfindel (finalized/published long after LotR) is consistent and true with what happened in LotR. It's poppycock. The only books that matter (LotR specifically here) consistently say that no one may know the future, and that 'law' supersedes any impetus (published long after) that Glorfindel saw the WItch King's actual fate.
Attempts to make Tolkien consistent will inevitably fail because he was inconsistent between LotR/Hobbit and all else. It's 'unnecessary' because it is an exercise in self-deception to force answers from a thing that cannot give answers.
@@danepatterson8107 One thing we can take (unless we want to be ridiculous) as being consistent throughout the Tolkien legendarium is that Eru Ilúvatar has powers similar to YHWH, and therefore knows all, past, present, and future, and can provide portions of that knowledge to others when desired.