This made me realize how differently people see shottypes once they reach a high enough level, like Lunatic players mostly qualify them as "Useful" or "Awful" in certain categories (For example Reimu C in SA is really good for regular runs because of her bomb, but she's fairly bad if you are attempting a No-Bomb run) and leave aside why they have them or if it fits
It depends. Personally I went to "No Miss" instead of "No Bomb" runs. Also, everything can be cleared with any shot type, so I can use whatever I want.
TD Youmu is just about the perfect designed shottype if you ask me. Requires some learning but often provides the best result when mastered, gimmicky without being outright goofy & impractical, fits the character perfectly and its strengths are applicable in multiple situations whether for spawnkilling enemies or hitting bosses while at the sides. In WBaWC it's basically the same but has a few unfortunate bugs/oversights as well as unfortunate damage thresholds where a lot of the bigger enemies just slightly survives a charged slash. Still good though.
Hypothesis: In TH12 each character have a large range shot type: the B type. In my experience, the wide shots types are very useful for kill enemies that appear by the sides in a LARGE QUANTITY (believe me), droping a lot of items, while your basic shot destroy the UFO in time and with minor zipzap. In that case, if Marisa had her usual shot types (Illusion Lasers and probably Magic Missiles), would be a pain get highscores in a game where the UFO abducting items from the enemies is the key for max points, if this doesnt escape. For that reason, I think ZUN had to give Marisa a larger range shot type, even when it doesn't suit with her style (short range but powerful). Note: My second best score in TH12, after Sanae B, was with Marisa B in difficult 'Hard'.
Well, it's true but most of the enemies in UFO, especially in Stage 5 tend to get into your face pretty quickly, even if they appear from the sides at first. Which, let's be honest, you can get there pretty quickly and kill them before they even have the chance thanks to the piercing laser. Though I agree that the magic missiles wouldn't have been a great fit for Marisa in that game either. Though I suppose everything comes down to the heat of the moment and how comfortable one is with the shot type. But it's sort of weird that the shot never appeared after, not even in the fighting games. Congrats on finishing UFO on hard though, the game is far from easy in the first place. :)
Once you get up to high level scoring Marisa A does score higher than Marisa B, but I could definitely see B being easier to score with at first. I'd like to point out something else about UFO too, it's one of the few Touhou games where the top two shot types have pretty much equal scoring potential, those being the completely different in almost every way Marisa A and Sanae B. In fact, back in 2014, E-Splice (a Sanae B player) beat the game's overall world record set by shin (a Marisa A player) by just over 1,000,000 points, which was an improvement of just 0.03%, possibly the smallest world record improvement in Touhou history. Here's a video of the two runs side by side: czcams.com/video/P_0YsDNwxPU/video.html Basically the main reason for this is because Marisa A naturally gets more graze than Sanae B but Sanae B overcomes this difference by having a greater ability to graze while bombing (especially important on Ichirin's final). Marisa A also has a greater ability to graze while bombing than Marisa B which is why she does eventually score higher. I could probably go on four hours about UFO shot balance, it's one of the most interesting games in that aspect imo.
So in short, shot types supposed to mimic the characters and makes the gameplay fun. Just my personal opinion though, i don't really like Youmu's hold & slash or whatever people are calling it
Never said you couldn't dislike the shot in itself. I mean...sometimes people like an unpopular thing or dislike something popular, yet it doesn't mean their opinion is wrong.
As strange as it is I took a liking to it the second I picked it up. I can’t really explain why and I can definitely see why others may not like it. It just feels so satisfying to use. (Whoops can’t spell)
I find it fun to slash through ennemy and kill a lot of them in one attack or to retire big parts of the bosses' life at a time But maybe i find it easier to use because i'm not afraid to go up
It's easy. It all depends on the chosen character. Take Mystic Square as the perfect example. Power rating: Marisa, Mima, Reimu, Yuuka Range rating: Yuuka, Reimu, Mima, Marisa Speed rating: Mima, Marisa, Yuuka, Reimu IF we will ever have a game with mechanic similar to MS in the future I bet we will have a final answer to that problem stated in this video.
Unfortunately, it's not as easy as one might think. If you take the example of MS, you can see that all shot types have a defined role, however some have some really good advantages, such as Marisa. Since she does the most damage in a straight line, this allows her to take bosses on very quickly. On the other hand, a character like Yuuka who has a spread shot splits her power into every projectile and as such, unless she gets super close to the boss, she's much more fit for the stages. However if the shot were to come back onto Yuuka nowadays, it just wouldn't feel right. Hence why ZUN created a brand new shot in PoFV, which fit her affinity with flowers. I know PoFV is probably not the best example since it's a different kind of game, but you get the idea. The character is one thing, but if it fits the character without the level design being taken into account then it won't be great and vice-versa.
@@Surnist Yeah yet you are forgetting one crucial thing: back in PC98 days, Yuuka wasn't the Flower Master but Everlasting Beauty of Darkness. Her power was never stated to be flower manipulation but it resembled more of a light manipulation if we are talking in general (and believe me, IT'S A HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT for her abilities back then). And to be honest it's a really bad thing that people recognize Yuuka with her POFV powers only because her importance in PC98 was far greater.
@@Serpenziss Actually I didn't forget about it, that's what I wanted to underline in my previous message. And well...true, her power was greater in the PC-98 but I do enjoy her appearance in PoFV, mainly because it grew her character into something nice. :)
Nice video! I'd like to note that even when only considering gameplay, you can still validate every shottype. Shots that are good at survival will be ideal for those runs time-efficiency-wise, while worse shots will offer more of a challenge by being harder to accomplish the same goals with; for scoring, every shot is its own category anyway, so there's no problem there. Also, one minor thing about the video: you called Youmu's slash damage output in TD "decent", but it's actually /very/ high. In fact, it's way higher than anything else in the game; even Marisa's missile shotgun doesn't come close!
Thanks! Though it's true that you can validate them, but I was seeing this from the point of view of a normal player, who's only going to try to lower the enemy's health to zero as fast as they can. It's true that each shot have their quirk, it's just...harder to play with some depending on the playstyle. And I did say Youmu's slash was decent because it needs to be charged first, it does more damage to clusters of enemies, but on a single target, it tends to only hit once or twice, lowering its overall power. Marisa doesn't outdamage her in terms of raw power, but since it is focused on one point, it'll do more damage over time, whereas the long charge time prevents Youmu from keeping it sustained.
@@Surnist I only realised after commenting that I kind of made it sound like you were suggesting otherwise in your video (regarding every shottype being valid for gameplay). That is not the case and I was aware of that; I just meant to add it since I figured it was an interesting point. I felt that your video basically validated shottypes based on several criteria, to which I wanted to add that even gameplay alone is enough to give every shottype a reason to be used :P
@@MaribelHearn Yeah, don't worry about it! I completely understand what you meant by that. I just wanted to elaborate to explain why I thought it was decent compared to others. 😃
@@Surnist It's a good point, I already thought that that might be what you meant in the video. In my experience next to no Normal 1cc players even use Youmu at all, lol. Her damage though.. I actually took into account the charge time when saying it's very high; that's just how strong the slashes are! In my DPS test (Guze Flash, invincibility), Youmu ends the spell 3.5 whole seconds faster than Marisa does. Granted it is optimised, but a human can do it close to that fast.
@@MaribelHearn It's possible...I might have gotten two games where they appear mixed up or made a mistake in the editing. I know that gameplay-wise, she's way stronger, but there are some situations where she's not able to charge it all the way. But it's true that some people don't even try out Youmu because the shot seems strange to them.
I like gimmiky shot types like marisa c in touhou 10 or marisa b in 11 or again youmu in 13. Sakuya b in 7 But if no gimmicks interest me, i go for offense and choose persuasion needles or magic missile
Marisa/Patchouli shot-type in SA is the best shot type in my oppinion,it has high power (Fire shots),Spread (and quite strong!) for crowd control (Water shots),3 direction and high power which is good for hitting those enemies who appear at both screen sides and/or those 3 big fairies that usually are strong and annoying (Wood shots),even horizontal and rear shots! (Metal & Earth shots) Its also hella fun to play (at least for me) and its easy to understand the element switching mechanic (again,at least for me),and it has a decent but close-ranged bomb. Althrough it fits Patchouli's personality way more than Marisa's,i still think its a great shot-type.
I will just say that Suika's shoot type in SA is underwhelming, not that much damage, the homing is not really homing and the bomb is only worth it in very crowded phases (mainly in stages, not so much in bosses due to duration of the Vortex). Regardless, i play it for the dialogues
Well most shmupplayers wont even allow any shottype, which is not a no-brainer and does fullfill the press-button-to-win-role, so you can only concentrate on avoiding bullets. And I really hate it. Its always just a permutation of widespread and focusshot and thats it. Always.
Which is a shame, because shot types are a great way to vary approaches, but since shooters are pretty competitive games, it's not wonder people want to fight with equal weapons. That's why I always try every shot when they are available, because it's always fun.
@@Surnist I dont see a problem in a competitive environment, of course gamedevs just need to a good job in designing the game right, if they wont to have different playstyles, but often they dont even try, because they know, the playerbase is blocking all kind of new ideas. In comparision, I always tended to see fighting games as way more interesting genre compared to shmups; at least it gives me another reason to improve the design of my own games, since I really love using new ideas.
@@deralufe9094 Yup, that's unfortunate. But in general, in very popular genres or extremely popular games, it's hard to see people wanting change in the first place. Now that I think about it...it pretty much applies to life in general. People have trouble getting out of their comfort zone. But it's true that fighting games give more interesting alternatives, since there's not only design and moveset to take into account, but also reading your opponent. So it can lead to a lot of creativity.
@@Lewtable yeah in 2hu we have focus-/Unfoucs--On-Runs or non-horizontal-runs, and second is only a restriction of movement, what a big number of options
![Deathbombing in Touhou [Explanation&Guide]](/img/n.gif)
Marisa B(ugged) is strong, fits the character, works well with the level design, and is fun. It is, therefore, the perfect shot type.
Well in all honesty, it does but it'd be better if there wasn't a glitch along with it.
Well it doesn't work well with the level design. ^^"
MegamanOmega really loves Marisa's Illusion Laser, gotta pierce those enemies clean, man
Yup, there's a reason why it's working so well!
Oh i remember how his Videos helped me 1cc some games.
Good times
I am a Reimu main tbh
I can't stand Marisa, its impossible to micro-dodge since her speed and full body hitbox
@@jadebayoba7073 it's not impossible
3:08 Youmu appeared in Imperishable Night and could use a full shot type there.
That shot type is pretty fun to use
Well, half a shot type
This made me realize how differently people see shottypes once they reach a high enough level, like Lunatic players mostly qualify them as "Useful" or "Awful" in certain categories (For example Reimu C in SA is really good for regular runs because of her bomb, but she's fairly bad if you are attempting a No-Bomb run) and leave aside why they have them or if it fits
It depends. Personally I went to "No Miss" instead of "No Bomb" runs. Also, everything can be cleared with any shot type, so I can use whatever I want.
TD Youmu is just about the perfect designed shottype if you ask me. Requires some learning but often provides the best result when mastered, gimmicky without being outright goofy & impractical, fits the character perfectly and its strengths are applicable in multiple situations whether for spawnkilling enemies or hitting bosses while at the sides. In WBaWC it's basically the same but has a few unfortunate bugs/oversights as well as unfortunate damage thresholds where a lot of the bigger enemies just slightly survives a charged slash. Still good though.
4:54 I see Reisen is starting to grow past her “Easy Modo” phase. Good for her!
Hypothesis:
In TH12 each character have a large range shot type: the B type. In my experience, the wide shots types are very useful for kill enemies that appear by the sides in a LARGE QUANTITY (believe me), droping a lot of items, while your basic shot destroy the UFO in time and with minor zipzap.
In that case, if Marisa had her usual shot types (Illusion Lasers and probably Magic Missiles), would be a pain get highscores in a game where the UFO abducting items from the enemies is the key for max points, if this doesnt escape. For that reason, I think ZUN had to give Marisa a larger range shot type, even when it doesn't suit with her style (short range but powerful).
Note: My second best score in TH12, after Sanae B, was with Marisa B in difficult 'Hard'.
Well, it's true but most of the enemies in UFO, especially in Stage 5 tend to get into your face pretty quickly, even if they appear from the sides at first. Which, let's be honest, you can get there pretty quickly and kill them before they even have the chance thanks to the piercing laser. Though I agree that the magic missiles wouldn't have been a great fit for Marisa in that game either.
Though I suppose everything comes down to the heat of the moment and how comfortable one is with the shot type. But it's sort of weird that the shot never appeared after, not even in the fighting games.
Congrats on finishing UFO on hard though, the game is far from easy in the first place. :)
Once you get up to high level scoring Marisa A does score higher than Marisa B, but I could definitely see B being easier to score with at first.
I'd like to point out something else about UFO too, it's one of the few Touhou games where the top two shot types have pretty much equal scoring potential, those being the completely different in almost every way Marisa A and Sanae B. In fact, back in 2014, E-Splice (a Sanae B player) beat the game's overall world record set by shin (a Marisa A player) by just over 1,000,000 points, which was an improvement of just 0.03%, possibly the smallest world record improvement in Touhou history. Here's a video of the two runs side by side: czcams.com/video/P_0YsDNwxPU/video.html
Basically the main reason for this is because Marisa A naturally gets more graze than Sanae B but Sanae B overcomes this difference by having a greater ability to graze while bombing (especially important on Ichirin's final). Marisa A also has a greater ability to graze while bombing than Marisa B which is why she does eventually score higher.
I could probably go on four hours about UFO shot balance, it's one of the most interesting games in that aspect imo.
So in short, shot types supposed to mimic the characters and makes the gameplay fun.
Just my personal opinion though, i don't really like Youmu's hold & slash or whatever people are calling it
Never said you couldn't dislike the shot in itself. I mean...sometimes people like an unpopular thing or dislike something popular, yet it doesn't mean their opinion is wrong.
As strange as it is I took a liking to it the second I picked it up. I can’t really explain why and I can definitely see why others may not like it. It just feels so satisfying to use.
(Whoops can’t spell)
I find it fun to slash through ennemy and kill a lot of them in one attack or to retire big parts of the bosses' life at a time
But maybe i find it easier to use because i'm not afraid to go up
Quick question, where did you get those character portraits (the non-ZUN ones)??
shot types? wdym? the only shot type there is is marisa b
b for bug
b for best
b for break-fast
You got it wrong, the only one that exist is Reimu B
It's easy.
It all depends on the chosen character.
Take Mystic Square as the perfect example.
Power rating:
Marisa, Mima, Reimu, Yuuka
Range rating:
Yuuka, Reimu, Mima, Marisa
Speed rating:
Mima, Marisa, Yuuka, Reimu
IF we will ever have a game with mechanic similar to MS in the future I bet we will have a final answer to that problem stated in this video.
Unfortunately, it's not as easy as one might think. If you take the example of MS, you can see that all shot types have a defined role, however some have some really good advantages, such as Marisa. Since she does the most damage in a straight line, this allows her to take bosses on very quickly. On the other hand, a character like Yuuka who has a spread shot splits her power into every projectile and as such, unless she gets super close to the boss, she's much more fit for the stages.
However if the shot were to come back onto Yuuka nowadays, it just wouldn't feel right. Hence why ZUN created a brand new shot in PoFV, which fit her affinity with flowers.
I know PoFV is probably not the best example since it's a different kind of game, but you get the idea.
The character is one thing, but if it fits the character without the level design being taken into account then it won't be great and vice-versa.
@@Surnist Yeah yet you are forgetting one crucial thing: back in PC98 days, Yuuka wasn't the Flower Master but Everlasting Beauty of Darkness.
Her power was never stated to be flower manipulation but it resembled more of a light manipulation if we are talking in general (and believe me, IT'S A HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT for her abilities back then).
And to be honest it's a really bad thing that people recognize Yuuka with her POFV powers only because her importance in PC98 was far greater.
@@Serpenziss Actually I didn't forget about it, that's what I wanted to underline in my previous message.
And well...true, her power was greater in the PC-98 but I do enjoy her appearance in PoFV, mainly because it grew her character into something nice. :)
Nice video! I'd like to note that even when only considering gameplay, you can still validate every shottype. Shots that are good at survival will be ideal for those runs time-efficiency-wise, while worse shots will offer more of a challenge by being harder to accomplish the same goals with; for scoring, every shot is its own category anyway, so there's no problem there.
Also, one minor thing about the video: you called Youmu's slash damage output in TD "decent", but it's actually /very/ high. In fact, it's way higher than anything else in the game; even Marisa's missile shotgun doesn't come close!
Thanks! Though it's true that you can validate them, but I was seeing this from the point of view of a normal player, who's only going to try to lower the enemy's health to zero as fast as they can. It's true that each shot have their quirk, it's just...harder to play with some depending on the playstyle.
And I did say Youmu's slash was decent because it needs to be charged first, it does more damage to clusters of enemies, but on a single target, it tends to only hit once or twice, lowering its overall power.
Marisa doesn't outdamage her in terms of raw power, but since it is focused on one point, it'll do more damage over time, whereas the long charge time prevents Youmu from keeping it sustained.
@@Surnist I only realised after commenting that I kind of made it sound like you were suggesting otherwise in your video (regarding every shottype being valid for gameplay). That is not the case and I was aware of that; I just meant to add it since I figured it was an interesting point. I felt that your video basically validated shottypes based on several criteria, to which I wanted to add that even gameplay alone is enough to give every shottype a reason to be used :P
@@MaribelHearn Yeah, don't worry about it! I completely understand what you meant by that. I just wanted to elaborate to explain why I thought it was decent compared to others. 😃
@@Surnist It's a good point, I already thought that that might be what you meant in the video. In my experience next to no Normal 1cc players even use Youmu at all, lol.
Her damage though.. I actually took into account the charge time when saying it's very high; that's just how strong the slashes are! In my DPS test (Guze Flash, invincibility), Youmu ends the spell 3.5 whole seconds faster than Marisa does. Granted it is optimised, but a human can do it close to that fast.
@@MaribelHearn It's possible...I might have gotten two games where they appear mixed up or made a mistake in the editing.
I know that gameplay-wise, she's way stronger, but there are some situations where she's not able to charge it all the way.
But it's true that some people don't even try out Youmu because the shot seems strange to them.
Its always good when surnist upload video
Marisa A in Touhou 10 has got to be my favorite shot type in it, even more so than bugged lasers
3:07 TouHou 8? everyone forgets Youmu is playable in TH8. Myself I figured out only after doing my 1cc lol
i hope you come back man, these videos are really good
I like the prettt bullet when it blow uo the fairy
UGH Gore's freaking roasted
I like gimmiky shot types like marisa c in touhou 10 or marisa b in 11 or again youmu in 13. Sakuya b in 7
But if no gimmicks interest me, i go for offense and choose persuasion needles or magic missile
Marisa/Patchouli shot-type in SA is the best shot type in my oppinion,it has high power (Fire shots),Spread (and quite strong!) for crowd control (Water shots),3 direction and high power which is good for hitting those enemies who appear at both screen sides and/or those 3 big fairies that usually are strong and annoying (Wood shots),even horizontal and rear shots! (Metal & Earth shots)
Its also hella fun to play (at least for me) and its easy to understand the element switching mechanic (again,at least for me),and it has a decent but close-ranged bomb.
Althrough it fits Patchouli's personality way more than Marisa's,i still think its a great shot-type.
Marisa B is the most worth it because it's awesome and cool
There, I have explained the entire video before even watching it
I personally like shotypes that has a powerful bomb as well as the ability to deal consistent damage
Zun:
try Marisa B in th10
Marisa is known to steel so it makes sence for one of her shot types to look like another character's
Wow, thank you Sunrist
I will just say that Suika's shoot type in SA is underwhelming, not that much damage, the homing is not really homing and the bomb is only worth it in very crowded phases (mainly in stages, not so much in bosses due to duration of the Vortex).
Regardless, i play it for the dialogues
Well most shmupplayers wont even allow any shottype, which is not a no-brainer and does fullfill the press-button-to-win-role, so you can only concentrate on avoiding bullets.
And I really hate it.
Its always just a permutation of widespread and focusshot and thats it.
Always.
Which is a shame, because shot types are a great way to vary approaches, but since shooters are pretty competitive games, it's not wonder people want to fight with equal weapons.
That's why I always try every shot when they are available, because it's always fun.
@@Surnist I dont see a problem in a competitive environment, of course gamedevs just need to a good job in designing the game right, if they wont to have different playstyles, but often they dont even try, because they know, the playerbase is blocking all kind of new ideas.
In comparision, I always tended to see fighting games as way more interesting genre compared to shmups; at least it gives me another reason to improve the design of my own games, since I really love using new ideas.
@@deralufe9094 Yup, that's unfortunate. But in general, in very popular genres or extremely popular games, it's hard to see people wanting change in the first place.
Now that I think about it...it pretty much applies to life in general. People have trouble getting out of their comfort zone.
But it's true that fighting games give more interesting alternatives, since there's not only design and moveset to take into account, but also reading your opponent.
So it can lead to a lot of creativity.
@@Lewtable yeah in 2hu we have focus-/Unfoucs--On-Runs or non-horizontal-runs, and second is only a restriction of movement, what a big number of options
Hi have you got links for the background music? Thanks
yoo
Yoo