It's All About Time with the
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2019
- So it’s been quite a week - Tuesday Lidl, Friday Lamello - but in this video I want to talk a little about expensive tools and #diminishingreturns, and how decisions we make at a later stage of our working life may seem insane to someone earlier on in their careers. Oh, and I bought my first biscuit jointer. Enjoy!
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Used/featured in this video:-
ProTrade - bit.ly/ProTrade_Zeta
Lamello Zeta P2 - amzn.to/2Xpu5vB (US: amzn.to/2Kufuv1)
Lamello Tenso P-14 - amzn.to/2Z5i4eX (US: woah - are these not available in the US??)
Lamello Clamex P-14 amzn.to/2Wkm922 (US: woah, again??)
8mm Dowels - amzn.to/2MHbxkk (US: amzn.to/2xlbJ31)
Festool Domino assortment - amzn.to/2piZjHa (US: amzn.to/2pGv1Lx)
Festool Domino 5 x 30mm - amzn.to/2oTq5CZ (US: amzn.to/2oOqyrL)
Gift ideas for makers and CZcamsrs:-
Bahco 6” combi square - amzn.to/2oumhX4 (US: amzn.to/2ouSg9k)
Bradawl - amzn.to/2qWTbln (US: amzn.to/2pZqVRm)
Mirock square - etsy.me/2MC0RTZ
Plastic packers - amzn.to/2vCDN27 (US:amzn.to/2vHk4fZ)
Moldex 6810 in-ear defenders - amzn.to/2sTwQJE (US:amzn.to/2sThGo1)
Hultafors Talmeter tape measure - amzn.to/2pHwnbH (US: amzn.to/2oqLQc9)
Festool lever clamp - amzn.to/2pOohLD (US: amzn.to/2pnFZIM)
Bessey Duo Klamp - amzn.to/2tsSWQs (US:amzn.to/2sVaRBH)
Braided hose sleeve - amzn.to/2puFkWd (US:amzn.to/2oqbQsi)
Polyvine PolyTen PVA - amzn.to/2HBxK66 (US: amzn.to/2rmHYL3) - Jak na to + styl
![My 5 Worst Buys! [video 484]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5uoQ78879Es/mqdefault.jpg)
![My 5 Worst Buys! [video 484]](/img/tr.png)
![My First Commercial Job with the Lamello Zeta P2 [video #340]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0AnErNRpA18/mqdefault.jpg)
![Festool Domino, Mafell Doweller or Lamello Zeta? [video #360]](/img/n.gif)
Good introduction and overview of the Lamello. First saw this on Manor Wood’s channel - he does some massive stuff and seems to use it in conjunction with dominos and where there are tricky glue ups where it would be difficult to clamp conventionally.😀👍
Biscuits are far more useful than just being an auxiliary jointing method. Biscuit can be used as a primary jointing method. The Lamello jointer has the p system that allows you to create knockdown joint but it also allows joints that are really easy to fit.
If you are doing cabinet making then the Lamello system is a must have. It will make work far more productive than say the Domino.
I have built hundreds of pieces with the Lamello system and all of them are still standing. If you are trying to produce medium price quality work then the lamello is amazing considering what you can do with it.
But even normal biscuit joints are really productive as well. And with some cleaver thinking you can produce fast strong joints.
Superb review video. The best on CZcams. The graph was very illustrative and your commentary as well as just demo provides a lot of value. Thank you
Thank you! 👍👍
I too have been looking at buying one Peter, thanks for the great video.
I look forward to the rest of the updates 👍🏻😀
Thanks! More to come on this when I finally get to use it, lol! 👍👍
That's a great quality piece of kit. I love how smooth and precise the housing is cut for the biscuits.
It is lovely - and yes, the smoothness with which the fastenings slide into place is amazing. 👍👍
If you are on a budget and cannot stretch to the Lamello system there is always the Knap system of jointing biscuits that use metal and plastic biscuits with any biscuit jointing machine.
They even produce knockdown biscuit joints but are not as convenient to use as say the lamello either and then there is the issue of the biscuit jointer being used may not be as accurate as need be.
A Mafell biscuit jointer with Knapp system can offer a unique system for those on a budget or doing diy.
Ahh. Now I see how that blade works. Thanks :)
Another great video Peter. I’m going to buy the battery version this week and use it with my Makita batteries and an adaptor sold on eBay. I have several custom wardrobes to install around the house. For convince I upload all the panel sizes to cworkshop and they cut to size and add rebates with their CNC machine then apply edging where specified. The Zeta P2 will make assembly quick and I should be able to fit three wardrobes in a morning. It was great not having to spend time measuring and cutting panels in a cold outside. I can later sale or rent out the Zeta to some local joinery businesses and get most of my money back.
I purchased the Graco UltraMax after watching your earlier video.
0:48 Those C15's were very comfy vans, I wish I still had mine.
Like the look of the camex fittings. Can see myself using these.
Great discussion about a cool tool.
Thanks Peter,
Cool tool. The miter connection looks solid. Great review as always.
Thanks! And yes, very solid 👍👍
Looks a fantastic bit of kit, I can imagine for someone like your self it would save loads of time on having things clamped up and gluing. Would love one, but this is a league of tools way beyond my needs 😢 😢
Well, we’ll see if it’s beyond mine as well - but I think I’ll find a use for it. 😆🤷♂️😂👍👍
I’ve had both machines for 11 years now and they still run like new. I don’t see myself selling them any time soon. Nice video you’ve made for presenting then to potential buyers. I just subscribed to your channel.
Thanks, and welcome! I have the original domino myself from when they first went on sale, but had no idea that the Zeta P2 was that old as well! I first came across it a few years back, and it’s been on my list since then! 👍👍
Time and cost is what's being mentioned the most here but no mention about the space you save! I have a 28sqm workshop, I can build a reasonably sized kitchen in that space but I do it in sections. I use the clamex fittings, once the cabinet is built I can knock it down, store on a shelf and work in the next one. For me this is just brilliant.
I do not regret the purchase, in fact I wish I had made it sooner. The cost of the fittings can add up, i agree but as long as you charge that to the job your fine!
Looking forward Peter to future videos on this tool and different applications.
Cheers
Thanks Nic! Yes, I’m looking forward to using it on jobs! 👍👍
Thanks Peter for a balanced presentation of this tool... avoiding glue ups can be a time saver in a professional environment where time is money, but as an amateur, a biscuit joiner does nearly the same thing (sometimes combined with screws/pocket screws to avoid glue ups or to make something which can be dismantled). A domino seems more interesting to me due to its ability to make quick 'tenon assemblies' very easily... I'll be interested in your experience after having used these tools for some time.
Thanks Francois! Yes, more to come on this one, for sure 👍👍
Looks very impressive and a great piece of kit
It is - also hard to appreciate without handling it just how well it’s made. 👍👍
Really interesting, I didn’t know this was possible, great little insight. Thanks
Thanks! 👍👍
Andy over at Manor Wood uses the Lamelo too, although he is making some really heavy duty slab style furniture, and also uses the mammoth sized Dominoes in conjunction with it.
Good review, mate. 👍
They really do look to be quite the time saver, indeed! 👌
Cheers Bill! Yes, I’ve seen a ew of Manor Woods (Andy?) vids, I plan on adding a few Dominos into the mix as well 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop yes, Andy. Those monster sized Dominoes he uses are insane! 😂
He's a hell of a maker.
You could also put straight dowel through the joint as well with just a drill and a simple guide or even do it free hand if you want.
Dowels would be strong as they come.
Oh dear, I'm tempted. Very tempted
I know the feeling 🤷♂️👍
This is an awsome video!!!!! I have learned some new stuff here! Thank you so much!
My pleasure! Thanks for watching! 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop You are welcome my friend!
Helpful overview thanks Peter
Cheers Alastair. More to come on this one. 👍👍
Ahh I didn't know it made a t slot, interesting video. I've reached my threshold for tool use v cost so the Zeta wont find a home here but I'll look forward to your upcoming thoughts on it 👍👍
Thanks! Yes, clever bit of kit, and nicely made. Looking forward to using it on a job! 👍
Nifty! and I thought of the "free tool" concept right away. VW beetles used to keep their value like this, too. Kept mine for 10+ years and sold it for $200usd less than I paid for it 2-yr old used. Originally paid a bit less than a Festool Domino with the set of loose tenons would cost.
Thanks! And wow, that’s pretty rare for a car, to keep that kind of value. 👍👍
Well, thank you Peter. As I said to you on IG, I was pretty sure to get the Classic X but now I know it's better to save up for the big boy. Thing is: I didn't invested in any joinery specifically yet and I'm just an hobbyist doing some cabinets/fine furniture for his own home and pleasure mostly.
Because of that, spending that much in something I will use basically in every project looks like a worthwhile investment.
Great content as always and thank you again,
Best!
Thanks! And ‘investment’ is the word here, for sure! 👍👍
+WizardOfAngmar
If you are on a budget Mafell do an amazing biscuit jointer for about £450 that is very accurate and fast to use with its fence system.
You could use that with the likes of the Knap jointing system that produces similar sort of biscuits as Lamello without the T slot cut on the end of the biscuit hole.
So you could cut very accurate knock down joint the only real difference between that and the Lamello system is it would be a little bit slower but not an issue if doing DIY.
But if you do use a Lamello P system you will probably get addicted to it. You could use the lamello system put in glue and then walk away with it all jointed up as the glue sets without using clamps.
Honestly I’ve never even heard of this tool. So this video is really interesting to me. Thanks!
I’ll be interested to see how you get on with this tool. From what you’ve said here, and from what I know from watching all of your videos, this tool looks a great addition to your toolbox.
I’m all for finding the right tool for the right job. I think that’s one of Tom Silva’s (equal Wood God along with Norm) sayings
Have a nice weekend, Peter
Graham
Cheers Graham! Must admit I’m an little surprised at the number of folks in here and on Instagram who are saying they’ve never heard of the Lamello, so I’m glad to be able to bring it to your attention, lol! And yes indeed, the right tool for the right job gets a 👍👍 from me. And thanks, good weekend yourself Graham.
Hi Peter, Its a great but pricey tool. We used ours so when we make kitchen cabinets with birch interiors and painted frames, brilliant to fit the frames and then remove them to spray clear on the carcasses and painted frames. A lot easier to fit that way as well, just be careful with the blade, our diamond one was over a hundred pounds to replace. I think the K/D domino fittings are good though. Hard to say if one is better than the other as different tools for different functions.
Hi Gary, and thanks! Yes, the more I think about it the more uses I can come up with for the clamex connectors, in particular. Fun times ahead! 👍
Impressive bit of kit, I can see it would become invaluable in a pro shop. Only downside is it’s another example of the introduction of plastic when you could do without it but it’s there for convenience. But that’s a bigger discussion!
+Matthew Stonely
Plastic is fine the problem is that industry in its laziness as gone overboard with its usages. Plastic is fine for a joint process and is no more of an issue than using a chemically bonded glue joint.
Peter I am glad I found your channel. I work for a joinery/cabinet shop company in Yeovil Somerset most of our work is London based. We use installers from the area. Allthough the cost to purchase the machine seems high and the fastiners are not cheap.
It makes flat packing for delivery and the install time saving more than make up the cost. Keep up with the videos and look forward to more in the future. Thank James
Thanks James! Yes, first impressions are very favourable, and good to hear from someone who’s used on longer-term. Lots of questions on here from folks asking about longevity of the connectors, which hadn’t occurred to me. Does your company have any concerns about how long e.g. The claimed connectors will last? Cheers, Peter
@@10MinuteWorkshop We use them for case assembly. We use a cnc to do most of our sheet work and will add 8mm dowels or conformat screws on fixed shelves if we feel the loading will be high. After five years of use we havent had a reported failure. Also sense we use mostly veneered MDF and plywoods we have changed the cutter to the diamond cutter to lenghen the time between sharpening. I hope this helps
James
Also when using the clamex for glue ups I will fasten them using a fair amount of glue to allow a little squease out. Then clean the glue off with a wet rag and scraper and by the time the wetness has dryed by sight you can the finish machining and sanding the part. That way you do not have issues with clamp marks and hard glue to remove. I have seen a few videos where people clime it is better to not remove the glue until after it sets but I find when working with veneer it is safer to clean it up when wet to lessen risk of sanding through the veneer.
James
That's really good to hear, thanks James! 👍
even though
you have bought one, we still love you ;)
Glad to hear it! 😆👍👍
You'll find some great uses for the clamex and tenso fasteners. It's not a replacement for a Lamello or Domino. The advantage is to have a re-movable joint or an aid in clamping of one. Yes, the cost is a bit to swallow but when you need it, it's worth it!
Thanks Mark! :Looking forward to having a proper play with this one, once I get the current work out of the way 👍👍
Looks like a very nice tool this. We are lucky to live in a time where all this is available
Absolutely 👍
Although it's multiple leagues above my price range I enjoyed this video. It's like Top Gear for woodwork tools!
Haha, thanks! But which one am I - Clarkson, Hammond or May?? 🤔🤷♂️😂(ps - also been likened to 'countryfile' - I think I prefer the TG comparison! 😂👍)
Haha good question! Probably Clarkson making a solid pitch to justify buying a car that costs more than my house! 😁
I'm completely amateur and still trying to figure out how to join multiple boards the height and width of an A2 piece of paper without it cupping 😑 I took some advice and bought a £60 Rutlands biscuit jointer but the fence moves despite being locked tight so it doesn't even level the faces. I'm considering returning it and spending more so do have an interest in better models.
I love the Divario Solution. Thats real great!
Yes, looking forwards to having a play with the Divario👍👍
Really interesting video this Peter so thank you. I’m at the ‘dowel jig that I hate with a passion’ stage of your graph, but I’m going to skip the cheaper biscuit jointer part until I can afford a domino. Decided I will hopefully end up buying a new one when I can as the used ones on eBay are so close to retail it’s worth the little extra for the warranty etc, plus you’re never 100% sure how well it’s been looked after. I went up to my local timber yard a couple of weeks ago as the Festool guy was in and had a really good chat with him. They’re also doing this thing at the minute if your Festool tool is stolen they will replace it within a couple of days for £100. It’s something to consider as I’m guessing most people’s excess on their contents insurance is around the same figure, but also you won’t be making a claim on your house policy. Another thing he also suggested was if you bought one, sell it as your 3 year warranty is about to expire and buy a new one. With the Festool price increases and inflation like you said, it’s likely you’ll at least get your money back (if not more than what you paid out) and your domino will always be under warranty.
Thanks Leo! Yes, the used Domino market is like the used Zeta market - pretty much the same as list price, there’s such demand! And let’s be honest, the Domino will do 90% of what 90% of people need. Or the rest, we’ll, there’s the Zeta. 🤷♂️👍
I bought the Top Ten back in '90 and have added the bag and a new blade over time working mostly in hard woods. That $700 original price was high compared to look alike tools but the quality and
accurate work of the Lamello have made the higher price disappear. I figure the Top Ten will give out soon so am looking at the Zeta. I seldom do knock down furniture or pieces so I will have to
stretch my mind a little to spring for the Zeta. I have the Felder FD250 for slot or square chisel work so Festool is at a distance. The FD250 with end mills has opened up lots of possibilities in
half mortise locks and flush fit hinges. The FD250 at that price is another matter of owning and using over 15 years and accomplishing work impossible without the Felder.
Looks a very nicely made machine
Cheers Matt - yes, very solid. 👍👍
Aside from the innovation of the Zeta P2, the thing that attracts my attention the most about all of the Lamello biscuit jointers, is the quality of the fence. With the other brands, I feel that you just never get that ‘positive lock’ when you line the machine up to the pieces, it always feels like the machine can be 5-10° from zero. With the Lamello, you can feel it sit into position and you know it’s all good.
Agreed. I think it’s one of the best made pieces of gear I own - probably *the* best. As it should be for that kind of money, let’s be honest. 👍👍
Neil Snape
The only other brand of Biscuit jointer that comes close in terms of feel and accuracy quality would be the Mafell Biscuit jointer.
The main difference between each of them is that Lamello is a jointing system and the Mafell is not and it does not have a P fitting type available.
Thanks once again for an excellent video. Late comments Peter, I'm sorry, been away on holiday and I am still catching up. I can imagine the Lamello will be very useful for your on-site assembly, but do you see it getting much use in your workshop? Your domino seems much more suited to the cabinets you build in the workshop.
Thanks Bob! I have a big wardrobe & too-box build coming up - 6 double-carcasses - where the Lamello knock-down fixings will be invaluable. Much faster, easier and better than the equivalent Domino connectors. Beyond that I’m not sure, but once you have one, I’m sure I’ll find a use for it! 👍👍
Appreciate your honest candour, Peter. What I'm wondering is the strength of these joints with glue. A few videos have compared mortise and tenon joints with dowels and dominos, but was wondering how the Lamello stands up. One of the advantages of dowels is the ability to join very thin stock with a small joint surface area, which wouldn't be possible with the Lamello and biscuits.
The Clamex connectors are almost stupidly strong - somewhere around 80 Kg per connector. But yes, they’re not the connector for thin material. 👍
I appreciate your time taken to reply. I was just wondering if a test like the one at czcams.com/video/WoOEwEuB1ag/video.html has been done with the Clamex. No worries. 80 kgs per connector is plenty strong, and if converted to PSI, the Clamex is stronger than the 900 PSI of the dowel joints in the test.
How about a 3-way build of cost vs time vs quality for dowels, dominos, and Zeta? I can see the zeta saving a lot of time and stress in the bigger jobs
Don’t have a Doweller, so it wouldn’t really end fair test, but absolutely there’s a video coming about Domino vs Zeta. 👍👍
Hi Peter, This is the first time I have ever seen this tool, and it impressed me a lot. From what you said about it the tool has been around for a long time and I have seen "DIY" dominoes being made, the best one from "Pask makes" but this looks very difficult to copy without a lot of high-end metalworking equipment, we will have to wait and see.
Hi John. Do you mean the Zeta? Yes, it’s been around for about 4 years or so, I think - we’ve had the Festool Domino for almost 11 years, so it’ll be a little while before the patents expire on that 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thank you for the info. Although the Domino is older the basic tool is just a router with a clever way of maneuvering the bit. The Zeta would need a different blade and movement, and even if you could buy replacement blade (and I am assuming they will be available) the movement is going to cause all sorts of problems.
i have owned a Lamello for over 10y now and its brilliant. I have not tried the Domino and being big Festool fan probably would have bought it instead im not sure it was available at the time
No one seems to have mentioned the fact that this tool will save an absolute fortune in clamps and make the porcupine stage of clamping workpieces pretty much obsolete. I am in the process of kitting myself out with tools and am more intimidated at the cost and complexity of the amount of clamps I should buy than the tools I am buying.
Peter, I would be extremely interested in a full video on the actual use of this tool. You gave us a glimpse, and I'm really interested in this product as a productivity enhancer, but I would like to know more. Please put a video together showing many different joinery applications. It would be extremely helpful in determining if this is in fact a tool I could use.
Thanks Michael. Oh, that video is planned, absolutely, but as I think I said in this vid. I’ve had the tool less than a week and haven’t used it on a job yet, so I need to get to grips with it’s capabilities myself before I can start making videos explaining how to use it, lol! 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop
Look forward to it. Your videos are always succinct, informative, enjoyable.
That thing looks quality.
One upgrade might be to replace the chintzy hex-key with a screwdriver type (Wera, Bondhus, etc)
Thanks Frank - and yes, already on that 👍👍
I'm glad you're out there buying these tools Peter. Diminishing returns indeed. Interesting indeed, but filling up your consumable bins with those puppies might just break the bank at 70p each. Time, and what it costs.
Well, as I said in the vid, the chances of it costing me more than £20 per cabinet/wardrobe/bookcase/whatever is unlikely... 🤷♂️
I use my pocket screw jig massively more than my biscuit jointer, but that's probably mostly due to what I'm fixing together. These fittings interest me though...
+AlisonWheeler
You can use both together if you want. Biscuit joint it all up with either glue or biscuit fasteners and then screw pocket holes afterwards.
LOL , i started my business ( a small engeneering company ) with the same van :D :D Used of course :P Nice work and tnx for sharing ;)
Haha! It was a cheap heap when I bought it, and cheaper / heap-ier when I sold it to a guy who was driving it back to Peterborough (didn’t fancy his chances!) butt it was a workhorse and did the job for many years. 👍👍
Great video how much accuracy needed? as domino on wider setting allows some movement as do biscuits.
Thanks! More wiggle room than I was expecting, (maybe 2-3mm total) better than the domino connectors, but not as much as with the regular Domino,for sure.
This just came on my radar yesterday - thanks to one of your older videos; so I have to ask, a year on, what do you think of it now?
Thanks! Good question - I could make a video out of that! 😂 A year on I haven't used it all that much tbh, but I love the Clamex fittings, and I'm disappointed with the Tenso fittings - they don't pull the joints together as tightly as I'd like, certainly nothing like as tight as I can clamp them, and I do need to spend a bit of time having a play with it when I get some down-time, as there is some adjustment on it.
I've tweaked it a bit, but there's more to be done. As for the machine itself, it's a solid piece of kit, I haven't had an alignment issues that I was concerned about given the lack of reference pins or paddles that you get on the Domino, dust extraction is good, and I haven't had any issue at all. On a purely personaI level I do really miss the Festool plug-it chord - many years of muscle-memory fighting against that - but that's just a personal thing.
Very much a niche tool, and I'm glad I have it - but if I'm honest I could absolutely live without it; I wouldn't want to be without my Domino, though. Hope that helps! P 👍👍
Quality kit for people like us who do this for a living is money well spent IMHO. After a spectacular year in 2014 (and to avoid a heavy tax burden), I blew almost £7k on Hilti, Lamello and Mafell kit, and although it hurt at the time, I've never regretted it for a second.The hammer that equipment takes on a daily basis is almost off the scale - but it all works as well as the day I bought it. And there's nothing wrong with a good old Citroen C15. My first van was a Mk.1 Escort with 140k on the clock. It drove like a broken tractor - but it got me out of the starting blocks. All the best, enjoy the Zeta.
Haha, cheers Kevin! That van pic was taken when I was selling it - bloke who bought it was driving it to Peterborough! Didn’t fancy his chances, though I never heard from him again... 😂😂👍👍
Interesting tool. Wish I could afford one. Do you think it would be useful for temporary large jigs where you can recover the connectors & flatpack afterwards?
Yes, absolutely! It for temporary things like cabinets for CZcams videos. 👍👍
David, loving your 10-minute workshops. How comes there are so many people in your credit list? 🤣🤣🤣
😂😂 And who’s David??? 🤷♂️
Sorry Peter, I was tired 🤣🤣
No worries Matthew... 😉 😂👍
Hi, Peter!
I myself love the Clamex S. They don't require the expensive Lamello machine, but using a regular biscuit jointer takes about three times the time. So, this information might not be helpfull for yourself but for others to save maybe some money.
Yes, the hole Clamex system seems expensive but I haven't found anything equal.
Regards,
Etna.
Thanks Etna. The Clamex S are the screwed down ones, I think? Yes, a good way of using the connectors without having to invest in the machine. I think you can CNC them in as well. 👍👍
I'll second that the Clamex S are great. On the other hand, if I buy them locally, they cost me about 2,50 Euros a pair. Building a desk recently required about 50 pairs, so the cost quickly added up. But then they are much easier to install than other knock-down fasteners that I used before, and much more convenient and forgiving (e.g. compared to the cam-lock type, which are quite fiddly to install accurately).
+Etna
Off the top of my head do you not need to use a special blade with the Clamex S?
@@bighands69 You can make do with a regular 4mm blade and a 4mm shim. My Makita biscuit joiner even came with that shim.
I think both the festool domino and the zeta P2 add more professional joints on a project. I own both even the big domino even I am a software engineer. But I like good new tools and they are just joy to work with.
And they are how he says actually free I bought them really cheap years ago so won't loose money.
That curve on the graph at 'domino jointer' tho! Lol. A man of your skill set could definitely do a comparable build with just dowells I'm sure, and of course, you have dominoes too. So the Time v Cost is an interesting equation here. Do you think that accommodating these various tools influences the design of the piece? BTW was much relieved to see the Lamello joiners CAN be undone, or else dry-fitting would be problematic.
Haha! Well, I joked in the Domino vids that the Domino was half the price of the competition, so yeah... And yes, I've made plenty with dowels - and Dominos - but the speed and ease of using this is quite remarkable. There'll be more videos to come with actual comparisons, I'm sure. 👍
I think you have to factor in the quality of the tool into the increase in productivity. I own a cheaper (less than $100) biscuit jointer. I discovered that the fence is not an exact 90 degrees, which means I avoid using it as I have fuss around with it to get precise slots. I may as well use dowels or other joinery as I can lose time rather than save time. I'll add Mike Farrington's channel as a recommendation to see someone make higher end furniture with the Lamello. He often comments on the quick precision and related peace of mind he can achieve with a high quality tool, which in turn helps him meet customer expectations and time lines.
Thanks! I’ve chatted with Mike a bit last year, but haven’t really kept up with his channel so didn’t realise he had a Zeta - I’ll have to pay him another visit, thanks! 👍👍
Not gonna lie, I went into this thinking you'd just spent £1500 on a regular biscuit jointer, but to my surprise it seems like a genuinely useful machine, plus it makes the Domino look like an Aldi Specialbuy!
Haha - now that would be an expensive tool, lol! And yes, it does make the Domino seem like a bargain 🤷♂️👍
That mitre joint is reason enough to buy it.
Yep. 👍👍
This is a subject I wrestle with myself, after upgrading to festool you have to ask who am I benefiting, me or the client.
If your on a price then you could argue that the job may take a day less time, but do you after time , still price for that extra day, probably not.
If you work on a day rate you probably lose money but likely produce better work.
My conclusion is I like good tools and I soon forget the cost after an hour of play time with them, customers do comment on clever machinery too.
I think in conclusion, your conclusion is right, lol! For fired furniture and the like, I’m almost always working to a fixed price, so I expect to be benefiting me. Plus, I’ll have nice tools to use. 😆🤷♂️👍
+A woud worker
Businesses that are more efficient and have higher output can out compete the market place. If you can produce two product in the time it takes to produce one with industry standard methods it can either mean you make your products cheaper or you pocket the extra.
It really is up to you as a business to make that call. I think it should be somewhere in the middle to be honest.
Working jobs on a day rate is one of the most inefficient ways to be working. I would say with a tool like the Lamello when you first acquire it just charge normal prices and do several products and then adjust the business as you need to.
Looks like a winner. Would you think it capable of making a solid drawer box?
Yes, easily. First ‘real’ job with it will be wardrobe carcasses, then I’ll have a chance to play properly on other things 👍👍
yer right who you trying to kid it was gadget lust and you had the money, I just did the same cant wait to drool over mine lol
Totally rational business decision 😆🤷♂️😂👍
Actually there is 18 different connectors. You are using my favourite top 😂 this 2 are killers
Nice video and content indeed... What about Mafell DDF 40 Duo Dowel!? Can you made one video more?
If I can get my hands on one I will. 🤷♂️👍
I saw one at Axminster the other day, they are very impressive and the build quality is really noticeable when you see the detail that went into making it. I imagine they would be very useful for those times you have to climb four flights of stairs to install a cabinet, just carry the parts and install on site!
Yes, exactly! 👍👍
Lovely bit of kit, just found the 50th anniversary one for sale £884.28 + £13. 15 delivery from Germany. Lovely machine, a better price but as much as I would like one, it just would give me a return on my investment. Good video and thanks for sharing, hope to see you get some good use out of it. 👍
Thanks! Yeah, that's the German eBay seller, isn't it? Remember you'll have to pay VAT on that, so not quite the bargain it first seems. I opted to pay a little more but have the peace of mind of a UK retailer looking after things 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I hear that, it's that tool junkie side of me that's trying to make a justification for buying it..... "go on do it, you know you want it, hmm shiny shiny" you see? Did you hear that or was that just me? 😱
LALALALALA I’M NOT LISTENING LALALALAAL... 😂😂👍👍
I’ve noticed a few tools like this popping up. Bit like a ‘Make Your Own IKEA’ Kit 😂
But expensive Ikea... 😆👍😂
Hi Peter. A while back you recommended some LED, battery operated motion sensor lights. I cant seem to find the video. Do you have happen to have the amazon link for them? Thank you.
Hi Salim. It was these ones: Mr Beams MB530 IP44 outdoor light - amzn.to/2PlTPrC (US: amzn.to/2PMS6IR) HTH. P
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thanks Peter
Hi Peter, i just purchased one of these, but I am not too sure or not but I find its not concrete when you try to move one piece side to side there is some movement. I know you did it but could not see so well since you were quite fast doing it. (butt joint by the way). Also I find the drill jig when you put into the slot (P 14 by the way) you have to be careful and centre it since it can go left/right a couple of mm , did you find this also? I guess I was expecting it to be very snug and no play. thanks in advance :)
Are you using the Clamex or the Tenso Christopher? Not a fan of the Tenso, as you say, too much movement on them for my liking. Some folks swear by them, I've never managed to get them to joint as firmly as I'd like. And yes, you need to take care when drilling for the Clamex - doesn't take much to move that hole away from where it needs to be. FWIW I put the Zeta purchase down as one of my 5 big mistakes. 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop Really? I thought you liked the machine, seems good for flat pack. ps its not the Tenso its the clamex P14. pss after I messaged you I went back and realised I slipped the fence all the way into the slots and not flush , that was causing the slightly more wobble some how, think it basically I was making the joint (one of them ) at a slight off right angle. I got it because it was either this or paying a fortune in van rental charges so I am hoping the saving will in a lot of cases pay for this machine. My next van hire would be around £200 :( . The festool equivalent looks too messy as you say it was a after thought of festool.
From an engineering point of view, wear in the undercutting mechanism would be my fear, given the very small movement to begin with...it wouldnt take much play to "lose" the undercut 🙄🤨
The plastic clips are innovative & the ability to flat-pack your workpieces could reap benefits.
I suppose it all comes down to "return on investment" & a DIY'r is not the target customer for this machine. 😕
If I had lotsa moolah I, being the tool-tart I am, would buy one anyway... 😂
Thanks Pete !!
😎👍☘
Seems to be very well engineered/made, and the‘ easy been around long enough for any horror stories to be out there - and I haven’t heard any 🤷♂️👍
Sounds like the the Domino and Zeta P2 are like the Leica M cameras of the tool world in regards to holding their values.
Haha, you might be right! 👍
As you have shown you can make joints with a router, solid tenon etc. Equally you can make joints with a router for dowel joints and very quickly with a base on the router that auto aligns. I think before you keep upgrading to tools that basically do the same thing, is to ask yourself, is it a NEED or more a "nice to have" ?
Great review. Unrelated (ish) and almost certainly covered elsewhere, but what are the post-clamps you use at around 5:30?
Thanks! It's a standard Festool lever clamp - amzn.to/2pOohLD (US: amzn.to/2pnFZIM) 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Yours appears to be a straight post with rubber foot rather than the angled one linked. It's it modified? Apologies, I know off-topic
@@apkarchitecture No Problem. No, it's angled - the angled section is under the bench, through the dog-hole 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Durrrrr, of course, I see it now I'm looking! Thanks!
The tenso ( ? ) connectors appear to also have screw holes - any comment on those ?
I believe it's possible to use them with a regular biscuit jointer (different blade) but you ned to screw them in, because you're not cutting a t-slot, obviously. Never tried it though.👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thank You - I thought it might be intended for additional strength, but the biscuit jointer option seems more plausible.
Nice kit for a cabinet maker
Yep- though lots of folks using the for furniture, too 👍👍
My concern with these plastic fittings is longevity, if your making a kitchen with a useful life of 10-15 years they seem like a winner. I’m not sure how I feel about it in other furniture that may have a much longer service life.
Plastic can last decades. It is a tried and tested method. Also you can apply those plastic fittings with screws and glue as well if you want to up the game in terms of making the most reliable joints.
There could be an argument of glue joints going as well. I tend to try and use multiple jointing methods on certain things that I produce but not everything.
bighand69 plastic can last decade but furniture can last century’s. I’ve got furniture that’s 200 years old. I don’t really trust plastic for a legacy piece like that. I’m not saying they don’t have a place but I’m not convinced that place is fine furniture.
Well since the Lamello and Domino are way out of my price bracket/skill level It leads me to my question......... I want to broaden my horizons with my projects/builds so my question is this, do I purchase a decent pocket Jig or a biscuit Jointer first to build radiator covers etc....? What would you recommend.....? very interesting video
Thanks! I have the Kreg mini jig [amzn.to/2th6NKe, (US: amzn.to/2JRNGxt)] for pocket-holes and find it to be excellent value and very easy to use. Unfortunately, I’m not the person to ask about biscuit jointers - the Lamello is the first one I’ve owned - but I’d imagine a combination of biscuits for alignment and pocket-hole screws for ‘clamping’ would work well. My podcast co-host Andy Mac(Gosforth Handyman) has the DeWalt biscuit jointer and seems happy with it. 👍👍
Hi there, hope you are well and free from Convid-19 sir :), I have been asked to quote to make a built in wardrobe . The practical side is , I cannot deliver it all glued up etc and so it will have to be delivered in sheets and put together (apart from drawers). Not sure if one day they may want to take it away to a new home in the future. So I was thinking of this tool - may I ask you somethings please? would you use it for a waredrobe, which model and which connection bits do you think I should use? thanks for the reply in advance. Chris
Hi there. Yes, well thanks - hope you are too! I used the Zeta P2 on the Sapele wardrobe build - czcams.com/video/1GI2G-txEcU/video.html. It worked very well. I used Clamex fittings, which are excellent. But if you’re making wardrobes where the sides are hidden, screws work as well! Clamex is great though. 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi, thanks for that, i am a bit anti screw, i don't just think they keep the pieces rigid enough, otherwise if that was the case Lamello would not exist? I have never used one but the tool and bits must be much better for strength compared to screws?
Christopher Claudio Skierka Oh the Clamex fittings are almost stupidly strong - something like 85 Kg/fitting. Easy too. 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop thank you:), i will look at the wardrobe video tomorrow, thanks for the link
About 10 to 15 years ago when pod based coffee makers came out with the idea the machines were very expensive, however when they found out that they would make more money from the pods than the machines both machine production increased and cost went down, wouldn’t this apply with tools like the lamelo and dominos jointer? Just saying
Great video as always.
Please do a video on the new Domino conectors! :)
Thanks! It’s coming... 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Great, looking forward to it :D
Nice intro Peter,do you see this as your next love??👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍😁😁😁
Cheers Alan! Definitely starting to see the possibilities, now I’m coming down from the price-shock 😂👍👍
How do you make money doing handyman woodwork? I’ve just made a frame and doors for covering a fuse box and electrics at my local church. I’ve done framed panelled doors.. if I charged for this at the minimum wage it would be £500.
Been a long time since I did handyman-type work, but even back then I was charging £60 for the first hour and £40/hour thereafter. Little meter cupboards I’d knock out for around £175 fitted, mostly to establish myself with the client. All due respect, but if it’s taken you 60 hours (£500/£8.21minimum wage) to make a frame and doors for a fuse-box it sounds like to need to work faster. 👍👍
Hi Peter, not a shameless plug, but check out Manor Wood. He does a great job of comparing strength, Domino integration, and ROI for a professional like you guys. Doesn’t really make any sense for you not to have one and the products you both make just fit the knock down and click together on sight capabilities.
Thanks James. Yes, I know Andy’s channel - he does great work - but he’s mostly integrating the larger Domino XL fittings, and I’m more interested in how the regular DF500 fits in👍 But I agree, for the kind of work I do I’m expecting it to slot in very nicely 👍👍
Interesting topic... in a more abstract way than a tool though...
Yes, it is. What some folks spend on xxxx is often derided by people (‘fools and their money’ etc...) when in reality, they’re just operating at a different level with different needs. 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop theres a lot of ways to justify spending money. Does it bring joy, productivity, ease? And theres always the option of increasing the final price to the customer helping offset the purchase. Increasing base revenue and time...
Might have been a little negative on your instagram account, bit it does look like a very well made and precise piece of equipment, and just maybe the slightly bit envious.
No worries Peter, totally understand where you were coming from. 👍👍
I thought for a minute or two that you'd got GAS. As a fellow photographer, you know what I mean 😎
😂👍
Diminishing returns means the amount of change between each unit of change is decreasing. 7 hours of work you own $50, 8 hours you earn $60, but 9 hours you earn $61. You're still making more the more you work, but each individual change is increasing less and less! The main concept being the rate of change is negative, not the overall gain. It's derivative math applied to economics. Just want to be clear for anyone who heard the first few minutes that said "the more you put in the less you get out". You are still getting more, just not an equal rate of change as you continue to put more in.
A very clear example of this is labour in economics. If you have 450 hours of labour available, and use 400, when you increase to 410 hours used, output by the labor will increase by amount A. As you get to 440 hours of labor, you may have passed the optimal labour level, and output will increase by B, but the increase B will be less than the increase A. Diminishing returns.
Love the video, and am curious about your start working for yourself. As well as the path that led to transitioning into CZcams & woodworking outside of just handyman work.
Thanks. Podcast co-host and I talked about our backgrounds and how we transitioned into cabinetry, then CZcams, in the first episodes of the Measuring Up Podcast - link in the video description. 👍👍
6:13 whats MFT ?
Festool MFT or ‘Mult-function table’ is the bench with holes in it. See videos #182 & 183 for more details. 👍👍
I’ve used one and they may sound and look great but the thing is they are rubbish. They have no real strength when in high use areas even when glue is added
I doubt you actually use it.
Biscuits when used correctly are really strong. They are routinely used in carcass construction in continental europe.
I have built furniture with biscuits over 20 years ago and they are still going strong. A mortice and tenon joint could have problems if not used correctly.
At $1695 on Amazon plus supplies I could only justify this kind of investment if I decided to compete with Ikea. It seems that Festool and Lamello have taken their pricing cues from the American pharmaceutical market, whatever the market will bear plus a couple hundred percent.
This Lamello is the most niche of machines though - and Festool’s Domino is half the price. Mafell’s Duo Doweller sits between the two. You pay your money, makes your choice 🤷♂️
I think i would be investing in a 3D printer and printing my own fixings. Probably only cost 30 each if that.
Give me time - I still have a CNC to finish... 👍
Waiting on that video with baited breath peter 😀
+Rambling Man
Your 3d printed fixings would need to be perfect and the time you spend designing them and testing them would mean time lost that could be spent using the Lamello system on jobs.
Would your 3D printed components actually be strong enough to compete with the Lamello components. You would need to test that to make sure and that is going to cost you months if not years of testing.
@@bighands69 If you can find out what plastic the lamello system uses, the rest is easy. The use of a CAD program (usually supplied with the printer) would allow you to quickly design both parts.
For reference, the official fixings look like they are injection molded and they would cost less than 2p each to produce.
Not just for cabinet making either. Check out how NS Builders used it on some stair tread returns and crown moulding. czcams.com/video/rvdfxzpIzaA/video.html
I want one! Let's see if the wife will let me remortgage the house.....
Might be a tough sell 🤷♂️👍
Lamellos are not worth it. Trust me. I run a cnc at high production. For the cost of the lamello joiner you can just get a cnc and a slotter bit and pump out perfect biscuits twice as fast. Plus the lamellos are annoying to work with. Ppl get to fancy just stick to biscuits and dowels.
Did you use your graph while explaining to your wife why you need a new biscuit jointer. Did you mention diminishing returns to her. Tell her if you keep it long enough it’s free.
Nope. The tools I buy for my business are nothing to do with my wife, just as the things she buys with her money are nowt to do with me. 🤷♂️👍👍
Peter Millard The comment was meant as banter, but I see you looked upon it differently. I’m a lot older than you and live in a more traditional marriage where there is no his and her, but just us.
Ah, I see. Nuance can be quite hard over the internet, so perhaps a 😏 may have helped? In all seriousness though, the tools I buy for my business are - literally - my business. Shared family finance decisions are made jointly, of course, but my wife works and earns her own money; I wouldn’t dream of telling her how to spend it. 👍👍
So you keep making mistakes with dominos and had to take things apart .well done lamello you found a niche market.lol😅😅😅😅
😂😂👍👍