Making Old-School D&D Magic-User more Magical
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 10. 2020
- Here I address a question about BX Magic-Users, some house rules, and just General Thoughts
Welcome to Bandit's Keep where we play a variety of tabletop role-playing games! - Zábava
The wizard kicks the door in and pulls two wands from under his robes and starts blasting.
His 6 charges each run dry and he pulls a quarter staff from his back and starts yeeting fireballs.
That runs out, and he bravely bravely runs away because the fireballs should have killed that thing.
Ha ha, yeah! If the fireballs don’t kill it, running might be the best option.
The wizard kicks the door and sprains his ankle because he put a 5 in strength. So he hobbles back, blows it to ash with a fireball, and pretends it was his plan all along.
@@BanditsKeep Our little group has gone to a magic system where a mage can cast every round as long as he has the spell committed to memory. PDM on dungeon craft posed a really interesting question: if a fighter can swing a sword every round, why can't a mage cast a spell every round? That's their core ability--casting spells after all.
But the system he uses requires a roll of a D20 every time you cast, and it has a chance for spell failure and even critical failure. We are experimenting with a modified version of this system. It's really interesting because you then have mages who can cast spells every round, but the question becomes is this really necessary to use magic? If my spell caster fail, the spell fizzles and he takes a little bit of damage (1 hp per spell level), and if he critically fails the spell could just fizzle with ghostly laughter filling the room (mages suffers 2 hp per spell level), it could backfire on the mage or hit a party member instead of the target, or worst case the mage could explode or melt like a wax dummy, or grow 20+D20 snakes out of his body that will devour him on the spot. The chances of that happening are pretty remote, but it's still possible. So now spell casters in our game are always asking themselves is casting this spell right now really worth the risk? We have a similar, but different system for clerics and druids, though this has more to do with their relationship with the divine.
Part of the problem for us is that as written, magic acts just like a type of tech. When you cast a spell it works just like it says in the book. And ultimately, that reliability drains the wonder and mystery and terror out of magic use. These are powers that essentially allow a mortal to defy the laws of the universe, so introducing a way that can spin out of control... We are still very much in an experimental phase with it. If it overpowers mages too much we significantly tweak it, or scrap it if it proves truly unworkable. So far, however, it's been really interesting.
“Nobody knows what level you are” is such good advice.
Thanks
In a campaign I once bluffed a party (5-8 level) into believing a 4th level magic user was an awesome power that they should fear, or at least respect enough not to attack. I figured they'd call his bluff then he would hit the ground begging for his life and (the reason he was there to begin with) offer lots of useful information about his former employer that they were hunting for. Instead he became a long term arch nemesis that they blamed whenever something went wrong.
@@christopherconard2831 That's adventure gold when that kind of thing happens.
That's good advice in life, too. Especially the first day on a new job. None of the customers know or care that you're new.
I was looking at the Staff of Wizardry once and thought "How fun would it be to have an NPC wizard with one, but it was nearly out of charges?" Everyone would be scared of him and the item, but he couldn't use up charges casually. He had to conserve.
You should have your rules as a pdf, im sure followers of the channel would love to see them.
This is a good idea - I need to organize a drive for this stuff, thanks!
@@BanditsKeep Just watching the video today, would love to see a PDF on this, especially the wand of storage.
One of the "rewatch this" videos from Bandit's Keep. So much useful information.
I really like the idea of a low-level magic user accumulating mundane items that produce magic-like effects as a way that they would have used their intelligence and years of study to prepare for going on an adventure.
Yes!
Numenera starts people off with small magical trinkets. A few more if you are a certain class, I think. Being Numenera, they are more like... Tech-trinkets maybe.
You could add them to the equipment list as cheap and technically non-magical alchemical and mechanical tools. I probably wouldn't hand MUs a monopoly on them. Some fighter is just as likely to have weird magical glow-sticks concocted of bioluminiscent shrooms as anyone else.
Similar to nobody knows what level you are, nobody has to know what class you are. Going back to the early 80's when I started with the First Edition, I wasn't a big fan of the classic "robes and pointy hat" look. I once put my highest score, 17, into strength. With an intelligence of 12. He wore a poncho and vest with lots of small pockets inside. Was he going to be one of those wizards that went on to reshape the fabric of the universe? Nope. But he could make a good living as a professional adventurer.
I played him like a person who got into college with an athletic scholarship as an offensive lineman. He wasn't going to be valedictorian, but he was smart enough to graduate.
Nice! Sounds fun
I'm a little late to the party, but felt compelled to add my 2 cents anyway. Playing up the "they don't know what you can't do" schtick, I immediately got the image in my head of a quiet, reserved wizard who wears drab clothing but the lining of his cloak has a bold dazzle pattern on it. He steps forward, flings open the cloak and starts with his grand soliloquy in deep booming voice, tossing out some flash powder/colored sand/smoke bombs. Then, of course, runs like hell behind the fighter... 'Cause he's intelligent that way.
😂 yes!
I think this is really one of the “new school” vs. “old school” differences. Back in the late 70s, the game was influenced by Swords and Sorcery fiction, classics like LotR, and low budget movies. Magic in these fictions was relatively rare, and very powerful. Now days,video games, modern novels, and high budget fantasy movies influence expectations. I actually think it is boring that as a caster in 5E as an example, I can produce a magic effect every single round forever. Because of my old school lens, this just doesn’t feel right to me. It goes along with buying potions in a general store. WTF?! But this is consistent with the modern version of the game.
I am more of a Moldvay guy than 1st Ed. AD&D, but one of the things in 1st Ed. I think speaks to some of your points. And this is true for thieves as well as a class. 1st level magic-users and Thieves are quite literally, by level title, Apprentices. A1st level Fighter is a Veteran. These are not the same levels of training in their respective professions. 1st level M-U and Thieves “suck” because they are apprentices in their craft. Being able to cast only one spell per day or having a 15% chance to perform a thief skill is about right for an apprentice. The Fighter equivalent would be a Squire, who would probably have 1d4 HP. But Fighters start as Veterans, not Squires.
Way back in 1980 I ran a Lankhmar game using B/X and one of the things I did to represent how wizards are feared was I required a successful Saving Throw vs. paralysis before a character could go into melee combat with a known M-U character. Not only did this make them survive more, it produced this really cool Lankhmar-correct presentation of wizards because the players would carry alembics and braziers and all these props so that it was clear that they were a wizard. I also allowed them to wear leather armor.
100% agree! Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls! Here is what has always bothered me about magic items If I am a M-U, I am going to spend my time making scrolls, wands, rods, and daggers. Why would I make magic swords and armor that I cannot use? Sure, maybe they get paid, but 90% of the time, they are going to be making scrolls, wands, rods, and daggers. So scrolls should be one of the more common magic items that parties come across IMO.
Nice video! I am loving these!
Really good points about starting levels and that save idea is cool. Thanks!
Full disclosure, I started playing AD&D in 1984 at 11 yo. and I typically played Magic-Users or Thieves almost exclusively. I also, ironically, really loved low levels rather than the more powerful high levels. It felt more interesting to have to either role-play/sneak rather than simply go into every encounter guns blazing and due to having a pretty great DM, we spent a lot less time in combat and typically were given more options for avoiding it. Another thing he encouraged to 'feel more magical' was to play out how I cast my spells, so instead of simply saying "I cast Tasha's Uncontrollable HIdeous Laughter", I would instead say, "As we face off against the orcs, I pull a feather, a paddle, and a small pastry from somewhere within my robes. I fling the pastry at the orcs and wave the feather at them even as I turn to flaunt my bottom and paddle myself while murmuring an incantation in the spidery language of magic." (this one actually did erupt in a chorus of laughter!).
I think in the video game era, people tend to favor the rules heavy new editions with all of its combat driven actions and flanking etc, etc... and forget to roleplay. Early magic-users (and thieves) in 1E tended to shine more outside of combat. It's up to the DM to create situations that allow for every class's strengths to shine and that also makes the game more than just a combat simulator.
I personally liked the idea of taking the Write spell to transcribe scroll spells to my spellbook, though the cost could be prohibitive. You might only be able to memorize and cast one spell a day, but having several to choose from helped make that less boring and meant you had think ahead.
The first thing I look up in rules to create magic items is the cost of magic. In time, cash, personal sacrifice (hp, xp, attributes etc), bondage etc. Non-magical materials, hireling assistants and lab tools are essentially cash put to use. I like magic item creation to have a weight to it. I'm also more generous with scrolls and potions and wands. Both in how often they are found to how they are made. In my friends game, these "consumables" are only an investment of cash and time. Any MU with cash will be able to have a few backup scrolls on them.
In Call of Cthulhu from Chaosium it's relatively simple for any human to learn magic and even create some permanent magical items without even joining a cult. Some spells are doled out to favored servants directly by the gods but definitely not all. All permanent magic requires a permanent POWer attribute sacrifice. If your investigator knows the Elder Sign spell they can make their own, at a cost. It's something a retired investigator in an advisory role to the active ones can do to still help out with the good fight.
Stormbringer has a fun one. All magical items are bound demons. Most or all of human magic consists of calling on demonic or elemental services. In effect it means all magic items are intelligent, from Stormbringer itself who can decide your mates are nice, juicy souls to a magic lamp who wants to be fed incense every day or it refuses to work.
@@dmadcat73 One of my friends asked around for which highest level people actually played at. I think most people in the local community went as far as level 3-4, with a few hitting level 6.
In my campaign, I give magic users additional innate powers as they progress in level. The reason is that over time, the mystical forces that a wizard channels through his body cause certain changes to occur within them. Some of the changes are:
1. Beginning at 1st level, a wizard's natural aging process slows by 5%. It slows by an additional 5% for every level the wizard advances (ex. 10% at 2nd, 15% at 3rd, etc).
2. At every other level (ex. 2, 4, 6, etc) a wizard's natural armor class is improved by one.
3. At 4th level, a wizard can automatically detect magic within a 5' radius. This increases by 5' for every other level he advances (ex. 10' at 6th, 15' at 8, etc).
4. Beginning at 10th level, a wizard can only be harmed by +1 or better magical weapons. This increases to +2 weapons at 15th level, and +3 weapons at 20th level.
These are just ideas. You may have others in mind.
I like that! I was toying with the idea of the increased AC as well, but was thinking they'd only have it while they are "holding" spells, creating another decision point of whether or not to cast.
@@BanditsKeep Love this. Stealing this idea.
Love these, stealing them!
Hey daniel - we met at Gencon last year - i was the Air Force guy that introduced myself in your breakout session and was a little giddy - keep up the great work w/this channel - you offer great insight & we share a background with the older versions of dnd so I thoroughly appreciate how you flex and modify that older framework -- sincerely, Patrick
Thanks Patrick!
I'm with you on this. The thing is, i DMd for about 15 years back in the 80s and 90s. I only just realuzed that I'd missed a part of the DMG that covers acquisition of MU spells. It does give read magic and 3 other spells to new magic users as a gift from their teacher.
The problem is that it's literally hidden in the middle of the DMG. It should be in the PHB if they wanted people to know about it.
Indeed!
Conan 2d20 really leans into flash bombs, smoke, etc. Really like that idea.
Cool, I only tried that system once, was fun
Played my first OSE session yesterday. It was fun, but the players felt that they could not do much. This video made me think that B/X is not necesarrily as restricted as we experienced. The biggest difference between 5e and OSE is that the game challenges the players more than the character sheet.
For sure, I would encourage them to try “stuff” if a player says their character can’t do cool stuff, ask them what it is they want to do and figure a way (a chance) that it could happen - within reason of course 😂
The non-magical special effects idea opens up so-o-o many possibilities! My head is spinning right now as partially-formed thoughts dance and crowd together, inspiring new & different ones faster than i can write them down.
About scrolls; back in the AD&D '80s my group had fun basically "re-skinning" them into other one-use items. Like little envelopes of powders blown from the palm, or fragile ceramic trinkets to shatter or crush, as long as it was "consumed" by the casting.
We never thought of smoke bombs, though
That’s awesome
Some of my home brews for Basic Fantasy:
(1) Elves know one Magic-User spell, regardless of their class. So they can be a Fighter with Sleep, and really wreck that goblin band.
(2) As a Magic-User, you add your Intelligence modifier to the amount of First Level spells you can cast. So a M-U with 18 INT can cast 4 first level spells per day, when they start as a 1st level PC. At 5th level, their spells per day looks like 5/2/1, because higher level spells should be more rare than a 1st level spell. Also add your INT modifier to the languages you know, beyond Common (and Elvish, if you're an Elf).
(3) Dwarves can be Magic-Users, because they can make magical arms and armor.
That familiar idea about the mage being blind/deaf while seeing through their familiar's eyes is gold!
Thanks
Reminds me of Shakäste
"Did I cast 3 spells or was it 4? Well in all this excitement I clean forgot, but given this is bat guano, and it'll make a fireball that'll fry your head clean off, you'd better ask yourself - do I feel lucky?"
😊
Your entire channel is great, this video in particular. I'm definitely "borrowing" your familiar and wand options for my OSE campaign. Thanks for sharing your ideas!
Thank you! Awesome, let me know how they work for you.
The best way to play a magic-user is to turn yourself into a chicken and have the party carry you around in a sack for the first ten levels. You just have to homebrew in a first level turn-to-chicken spell.
Could be useful as a means for rations
We used to let Magic Users memorise a number of extra spells equal to their intelligence bonus. They could only cast the number of spells as written in the rules, but having extra ones available gave them more options to be useful. There might not be a big fight where sleep is needed but there could be a locked door that needs to be opened or they could indeed find scrolls where Read Magic would come in handy.
We also used to let M.U.s use a quarterstaff as a weapon, that way they could stand behind the fighters and thrust the butt end of the staff through to smack the bad guys in the face for a little extra damage.
Oh, and I once played a M.U. with good dexterity who used to juggle and throw daggers, again a useful bit of extra damage especially against low level monsters.
Nice
This single video alone is so full of fantastic tips that I'm going to have to rewatch it with a laptop next to my phone to write them all done. Thank you!
Great! Let me know how the ideas work out for you.
Here's what I do in my AD&D 1e/2e hybrid game:
1. Every Wizard has Cantrip as an at will ability.
2. Signature Spell NWP that allows one spell to be always memorized and is cast at +2 level efficacy. So in effect you get an extra spell slot.
3. Allow bonus spells for high INT similar to what the Cleric gets for high WIS.
A 1st level Wizard can have 4 memorized spells with these three changes and they are a more formidable party member. The rest including brain power and thinking is up to the player.
Cool
My last gaming shop fifth teen years ago, ran some Harry Potter like games, which due to the nature of people in their mid to late twenties and to their fifties, due to Rated:R for language and content we went from junior high school to junior college young adults.
3.5e rule Item Creation feat: Craft Wondrous Item, DMG: Creating Magic Traps replace all other forms of creation feats of Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potion, Craft Wands, and Enchant Arms & Armor.
Average start level of WotC:Star Wars rpg was 4th -level. For our games it was 6th-level multi-class PC with two levels of Xp/wizard worth of magic items. So a 6th-level spell caster was regarded as CR:8 due to equipment.
Instead of paying GP for items it was paid in with gp=Xp value, and sold as Gp for xp value, which level cap magic users. 2nd-level spell at 3rd-level spell caster ability cost 1,500gp/xp. Which is a month of slinging a stone to kill a chicken/rabbit/rat/raven for dinner each day.
Upgrades, a sorcerer/wizard wand has the 2nd-level spells such as Enchant Magic Weapon/Armor and Mend to keep their wand from being accidently broken and can fire off Magic Missile or Acid Bolt like a pistol with an unlimited magazine of Ammo. Other wise wands for sale or weapons with special magic charges only have a magazine up to nine spells.
Stander magic user N/PC, .. Rogue2/figther1/wizard3, CR:6
From all the dumb things my parents did and what my generation did, we all will be classified as 2nd-level rogues with Evasion from the number of times of avoiding setting ourselves on fire.
From WotC:d20 D&D3.5e Star Wars soldier class compare to the optional rules of 3.5e DMG in skill/feat training to real life military training. We by pass Xp for killing or social reactions to just Training Time to learn Skills/Feats. Which equal to 1d3 class levels per year. So on and so such. Then is no zero -level npcs.
After 5 years of clearing out your garden, farm fields, barn of rats, ravens, large to giant insects and other such vermin, ...
AD&D2ndE, Fighter/wizard2nd-level then militia training. Rogues would be around 3rd to 4th-level.
3rdE DMG npc Commoner class would be around the age of 20yo will be a 7th-level single class Commoner. Or a druid .. sorcerer casting Plant Growth to increase the harvest thinking it was just hard work and not magic. Trained militia man veteran of a few battles that can Flank in groups, Commoner2/rogue3/warrior2, CR:5
2.) Magic Effects in Campaign.
Spell: Good Berry, .. after casting it just means the PC find enough food without Survival/Wilderness checks to feed themselves for a day.
Spell, Create Food & Water, .. find a pack mule with water skins, you can cook the mule. Be grateful you are not stuck in a rain storm drinking muddy water and eating worms.
Spell: Cure Light Wounds or Critical Wounds, a second wind of vitality/Star Wars concept of Hp, Wound points = your constitution score for flesh & bone dmg, along with dealing with concussion and sprang ankle dmg. Other wise Cure Critical Wounds just grants the PC extra bed rest in recovering HP, wounds will not heal like the Marvel comic character Wolverine.
Low cost in creating magic items from cheap looking mundane everyday items, so magic is everywhere without flashy effects and ramped superstitions.
Fire ball is a grenade, Lightning Bolt is in your face Magic !
Spell: Shield, .. gives the receiver a dodge or parry bonus to avoid attacks, there is no invisible or visible shield of magic force energy seen protecting the PC.
Spells: regarding PC speed or ability enchantment are just regarded as athletic adrenaline boosted effects. Back in the early days of 3rdE my first game shop ran a He-Man campaign, if Teela is the Sorceress daughter what magic could she employ as a Sorcerer and not a wizard that would come off as Athletic abilities ?
🙌🏻
I'm sure you know the variation described by Dungeon Craft and others: roll for spell success, with some chance for crit failure. I feel like it still keeps the Vancian flavor if you're only able to do this on memorized spells AND if the crit failure is something that truly hurts and/or has a high enough chance to happen. You can further up the risk by increasing the chance of crit failure by +1 for each successive cast that day (DCC style, I believe). So first cast of Sleep only succeeds on 1d20 roll and it affects the party on a roll of 1 (quite possibly a TPK scenario). A second cast of Sleep again succeeds on 1d20 (maybe -1 penalty on this roll) with a crit failure on 1 or 2. This retains the Vancian feel since you can't cast a spell you didn't memorize for that day.. But instead of a spell disappearing completely from memory upon the first cast, it becomes more hazy to the wizard. Each successive attempt causes the memory to become more unclear and prone to corruption.
That’s not Vancian - though it is a fun way to run magic, I’ve been running DCC for a few years and I do love the wildness of that type of magic - Vancian magic is about resource management, not risk.
I play 2nd Ed, but I always found the Beyond the Wall Mage class to be closer to what I always thought a mage should be. I bridged the two systems by making Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Cantrip(as per the little wish article from dragon magazine) function as Cantrips from beyond the wall(you can cast as often as you like, as long as you can make an Int Check. If you fail, the player gets to choose if he lets the DM generate a mishap or the character is incapable of using magic the rest of the day, and all his currently active spells suddenly end). I leave the clerical versions of the spells alone, priests are pretty OP at low levels as is.
Cool
Very thought provoking. Thanks.
Thanks!
Using slight of hand against lower intelligence creatures/enemies is a great idea. With a bit of alchemy during downtime to create intimidating or awe inspiring (or blinding) effects would really help. I never thought about a hireling though, great idea. My next MU is going to be a mix of Stephen Fry and Penn & Teller at this point.
Awesome
These are all good ideas.
I allowed a MU to hire a psionic npc who had invisibility as his only discipline. In combat he would attack from a flank or other "surprise" location. The player explained that there were two of him due to a magical mishap and his alternate self was a fighter.
I use your MU as sage, with stage magic, stink bombs, and even powerful allergens to keep all the normals guessing.
Thanks for another great video. Another point to make is that the game was designed by guys who assumed there would be 6 to 10 people playing, so there would be multiple M-Us and plenty of tanks to hide behind. Like they didn't realize that not everyone had clusters of war gamers to draw players in from and most normal people's groups settled out at 3 or 4 players and a DM.
True
Some excellent stuff - hidden levels & the deceptive little tricks (loved the kobolds vs a line of chalk example) are especially good pieces of advice regardless of the system being used
Thanks 😊
I have been struggling with a similar issue with Wizard spells, and settled on the idea that the Wizard is able to create his own scrolls. I want to keep it under control though, so scrolls are not free or unlimited. It breaks down as follows. 1) you are limited to the number of scrolls = to the 2x the number of spells you can cast in a day. 3) it takes time to make scrolls. 1xspell level hours per scroll) 3) you need to "Cast" the spell in to the scroll. Thus making scrolls kinda of like a magic battery. 4) Making scrolls takes time and $$. 100g per 1st level scroll, 200g second level, 400g third level etc. 5) scrolls are a bit bulky, and susciptable to the elements. Water, fire, acid etc. 6) there is a chance the scroll you pull from your "scroll quiver", sack, Henchman, etc. was not the one you were looking for (I am still trying to decide on a fair but fun way to do this...I envision the whole Rocky and Bullwinkle, "hey Rocky! watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!" sort of situation). I am looking to do a similar thing with clerics as well, only they can requisition potions from the local Church. It is limited by $$ (donations) and Standing within the chruch (level). This allows the party to do things like get access to a healing potion for example.
Nice
I like the wand/ familiar idea. That's really useful. One thing I do like from 5E is to allow the M-U/ cleric to cast any spell they know. I see you're playing AS&SH, that system gives casters bonus spells based on their ability score which is great. Clerics have a great number of utility spells, but in general you never see them come out due to the need to memorize healing. Letting them pray for a number of spell equal to their wisdom bonus plus their level, and then use their slots at they see fit really adds flexibility.
Also, I need that shirt!
Ah yes, spontaneous casting is a very cool way to get those utility spells out, though I tend to be a hard line Vancian guy 😊
@@BanditsKeep I'm wrapping up my second 3 year 5E campaign, and we've all agreed to move to AS&SH for campaign 3. :)
Very cool, I think ASSH is one of my favorite systems I’ve ever run. Great mix of character types and a killer setting.
These are great suggestions. So many good ideas. I have to admit, when we started playing the basic set we played rules as written and didn't venture to far from the book. We were either not experienced enough to broaden the definitions, or just didn't mind the rules as they were at the time. Hearing your ideas certainly opens the gates for my interpretation of BX, which was always very restrictive in nature. I stand corrected...enlightened.
I think Cantrips can be expanded more so as not to abandon them. I know I am venturing into the non-BX realm, but in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana the Cantrip spell was a 1st level spell, that when cast gave the caster 10 minor effects for the day; for instance, take the 5e cantrip Prestidigitation and all the effects it can cause, each of these effects would count as one minor effect under the UA cantrip spell. Adopting this to a BX M-U would be useful to the one-and-done, first level M-U, and dig into the player's creativity. Say the M-U could cast a cantrip effect that summons a swarm of fluttering butterflies in the area. If the M-U is clever this effect could be used to obscure, confuse or otherwise delay an attack upon his / her person; such as, the M-U casts the swarm of butterflies between him and an orc. The resulting confusion would open an opportunity for the M-U to run away.
Your idea for starting spells is awesome! I think man people make the mistake of taking Magic Missile over the very powerful Sleep or Charm Person spells...such is their folly. Also, the Find Familiar spell as you described it should also be a no-brainer. On a side note, I like the restriction on elves not having the extra starting spells / spell book option. I agree, their spells should be more innate to taught by tradition / word of mouth. They have long memories, spell books are probably unnecessary. In my opinions, elven magic should be more enchantment / druidic based anyway.
I love the hireling idea! It makes so much sense and doesn't break the game. Hirelings are highly under rated.
Thanks so much for all the input, nice idea with the UA cantrips
Some great advice here for making the magic-user count for more. I kind of dig the wand and the hireling ideas. They seem simple and low-potency enough but give the magic-user some extra functionality.
Thanks!
@@BanditsKeep do you have these rules and other stuff you do posted anywhere?
In my campaign, I'm having MU's needing magical staves(commonly shaped like a ？? Shape but other shapes are possible) that are created by 9th level MU's, they have magically charged "ioun" stones that power up their spellcasting. But without the basic staff, victims get a +1 to their saving throws against the staff-less MU. MU's get one staff for free at character creation, but replacements are costly.
Nice
I work "cantrip" in as a 0-level spell using the same progression for other spell levels. (eg. 2 uses at 1st level, 3 at 2nd, 4 at 3rd... to a maximum of 5.) It helps to give the character more to do at low levels, but later on they're mostly a novelty.
Cool
I’m excited to give this channel a try, cool shirt, so far so good! XD
Thanks Justin!
15:50 I like this comment - allow the magic user to know what is going on with magic.. That goes back to the purpose of having a magic user in the party! You need one to figure out what is going on in the dungeon or th adventure. It goes back to why there are 4 classes and why you probably need one of each in your group - each one has skills or knowledge or abilities to get you through different parts of the adventure. MAKE MAGIC-USERS MORE MAGICAL!
For sure
Great video. I really look forward to see how DCC will handle the Vance's Dying Earth setting and their take on 'proper' Vancian-magic therein.
Agreed - I played in a playtest at the last in person GARYCON and was not overly impressed, BUT that was a super early draft, so I have high hopes changes have been made! Can’t wait to get the final version and see how they made it work!
One of the things that magic users have going for them is that any time another magic user is killed, they most likely will have a spell book. If the mage chooses, he can copy spells into his spell book. Other spells can be cast as scrolls.
So a mage with several spell books will have many extra spells he can cast. He could only carry so many as they weigh quite a bit but having 2 or 3 would give him quite a bit of power.
Interesting house rule!
@@BanditsKeep Not a house rule. It's basic D&D. Magic users have a spell book which they use to record their spells. Each day they pick the spells they want to memorize. You can use scrolls or spell books and copy spells that you do not have into your own book. When you do this, the scroll is consumed or if a book, it erases the spell from the book.
The mage would need certain things in order to do this such as special inks, diamond dust or whatever. Usually it would just cost the mage $xxx amount and you would of course have to have a town with these supplies on hand.
@@CaptCook999 Not in the basic I use, is that BECMI? please refer me to the book and page # I'd love ti read it, casting from books is not a thing I've ever seen - but cool idea!
@@CaptCook999 I know AD&D 2e had the concept of information density in your book. Your book has X pages, and each spell level uses dY pages or so. Wizards at higher level typically know more spells than they can fit in one book. They have a set of master books at home in the tower and copy them into a "field manual" for no cost but time and the cash to buy blank books. Sometimes they replace books or give their old ones as hand-me-downs to promising students.
I know the precursor to Dragonbane had a sort of book-wizards in Chronopia. They described them as dudes who had spells pre-loaded as book pages, who could snap open a book and release a volley of them. You didn't play these dudes yourself, they were a pretty nasty encounter in town.
Would love to see another "build an adventure" video!
I prefer magic users in the classic mold of seeker/keeper of knowledge rather than the munchkin-land version of mobile artillery lol. If the players "get it" it creates a great opportunity for role play.
For sure
That would add an interesting layer for the game master as well. interweaving the quest for knowledge of specific spells that apply to the unfolding adventure. Maybe searching for some specific spell to combat demons being summoned to this plane or an evil necromancer and only your magic user can find the spell that can counter this and prevent disaster. That has some great possibilities and I think you're on to something with this idea.
This video has been helpful, as it has helped me solving a problem that happened in game. I've realised that I have been at fault with something in my games. This has been a great video
Glad to help! Thank you
i love your ideas on wands and familiars
Thank You!
Great video. Good advice. Love the use of chalk to scare the kobolds.
I give the 1st level magic user a wand with two or three charges.
Detect magic and read magic are magical abilities they require a successful skill check during an adventure. Roll d20 below INT, and the defect magic is successful.
Nice
I think having spells alloted to items like wands/stalves/rods/rings/scrolls are in line with BX/ Vancian magic instead of relying on limited spell slots or ability to memorise having spells stored on multiple items on the person of the magic user is way more gonzo and exciting.
Finding a scroll with spells above your caster level and casting it anyway despite the risk as the hail Mary is brilliant.
That's why the thief had a chance to read scrolls is there scrolls need to be given as a low level treasure
For sure, scrolls are awesome.
We've always played like scrolls are easy to use. Your level does not matter when casting from a scroll, someone else who had a high enough level has already done the heavy lifting. You are just channeling what that bloke penned down.
But if you find a cool level 3 scroll you have to decide if you want to pop it off now and have that fireball on level 1, even if just once. Or if you want to save and copy the scroll into your book. Each choice consumes the scroll.
Good video! I’m fascinated by your idea for wands, and the idea of magic-users starting out with a henchman makes a lot of sense.
Thank You!
Absolutely fantastic! Filled with so many good tips.
Thanks 😊
I added a "perk" system to my osr game, kinda like feats but low power and the characters get 1 perk every 4 levels or so. Most of the perks are something that give a +1 bonus to some activity or expand an existing class feature. For the MU one perk they can choose is "enervatic channelling", the MU can recast a spell they have already cast by taking 1d4 damage per spell level. The MU in our current game has nearly killed himself twice during a tough fight by using it. I may have to adjust this perk a bit, but it gives them a dramatic option to extend their power.
Some other tweaks I added were in line with letting magis-users do "magic user stuff": witch-sight Wisdom check to sense magic at a range equal to their level, learn potion formulae using spells they know, scribe scrolls for spells they know, "read magic" as a skill, Wisdom check to figure out a magic artifact/item.
I generally allow the players use their class and background as meta-skills with ability checks.
Your take on elf spellcasting (innate-ish, no scrolls) sounds like what I've been doing.
The "nobody knows what level you are" is solid. My group has avoided many things they could have easily defeated out of uncertainty; that uncertainty is worth cultivating.
I like those perks, very cool.
Hey dude, just discovered your channel. Putting the master in dungeon master. Loving the BX content, having never read or played it I have always looked down my nose at it for being basic - so thanks for that.
Seeing the hex crawl generation was inspiring - while I dont necessarily think I'll run BX, will have to use a lot of those systems to run Adventures in Middle Earth!
Cant wait to see all your content.
Thanks! Very cool. I’ve heard good things about Adventures in Middle Earth. So many great systems out there and the concepts we use for one can usually be ported to others.
I like the idea of wizards being able to use prestidigitation any time. It's not supposed to be especially useful, just good for color in role-playing moments, like improving the taste of food and stuff. Also, Professor Dungeon Master on his channel mentioned that he lets spellcasters cast as much as they want, because they have to roll a d20, and a natural 1 has a wild magic effect of some kind. So his spellcasters are still quite judicious about their spell use. Otherwise, just give spellcasters more spells. In my game, you get several spells at first level but first level spells can't do damage, so wizards have to be problem-solvers and leave the fighting to fighters.
I also like the idea of wizards speaking "Imperial" (Latin or whatever), and intelligent monsters speaking broken Imperial instead of a monster language. Clerics and Wizards should speak this special language that the fighters and rogues can't, and that's something that makes them useful. Druids' mystical language should allow them to send a message to any living creature (the sounds of nature) but not hold a conversation.
Not sure “ more magic “ is the answer, but if it works for your table, that’s awesome.
I love the idea of a hireling for the MU early. I think once the MU gets to a higher level (10+?) then they should attract a follower that will learn from the MU
For sure
Like a little wizard's apprentice or Igor that hangs around their tower? I think that could be handled with the normal henchman rules. A wizard havin a junior wizard for an apprentice is pretty cool. In some rules you get a small bonus for magical projects by having assistants and apprentices around.
Invading a wizard tower and meeting a bunch of level 1d4 apprentices the dude had abused in different ways was pretty fun for us. Most of them weren't combative, they were just as confused as us about where the wizard had gone.
One thing I did for my AD&D game was to give all players a d8 hd plus their class HD at first level and I gave everyone with a high enough constitution to have the fighter con bonus . It gave players a slight chance to survive but didn't make them over powered .
I gave wizards the same spell bonus clerics got but based on intelligence instead , it gave magic users a few extra spells at low levels so they didn't seem useless in combat .
I also allowed magic users to wear hide/fur armor only and use slings in addition to their normal selection of weapons allowed .
I also removed level limits for all races and allowed some races to be classes they wernt normally allowed like allowing dwarves to be Paladins and halflings and gnomes to become druids and rangers .
It didn't hurt play or really change things to much and my players like it .
One player had a gnome druid named Rombold Evergreen who rode a Rottweiler as a mount and wore a wref of holly on his head .
Another player had a female Halfling ranger named Hilda hollowbottom and she rode a goat .
My players at that time ( 1987 ) had some really cool ideas for their characters and we all had fun playing ad&d
Sounds like an awesome group and games!
We add a 20 hp "kicker" for everyone at 1st level in our AD&D-derived OSR games. For B/X or OSE, everyone gets a d14 hp kicker. Incidentally, I did the latter for a recent DCC 0 level funnel for some of the characters and just the standard roll for others. Of the entire party the only survivors were the PCs with the kicker. 10 out of 16 died in that adventure....So having a few extra HP can really help early on. And if you roll fairly thereafter, by the upper levels the hp totals aren't too high, though magic-users will tend to be a bit tougher than usual. But since we also use criticals, it evens out.
Awesome video! Love how you take the DM and player perspectives. You have some really good ideas here!
Thank You!
Great ideas. i can't wait to try them out.
Let me know how they work out for you
It's very interesting to throw something at combate to high int PCs, like: "you look at the ceilling while your companions are fighting and see that if you hit the right place, it will collapse", something like that.
True! My players are always collapsing ceilings and lighting stuff on fire 😂
One very early option we latched on to as a house rule was Staves, Wands and Orbs. Basic Wizard staff is in effect a crossbow it shoots a little elemental "bolt" as a sfx the element does nothing it does damage of a cross bow and has 12 bolts standard after which in needs to be "oiled" with Staff oil to gain another 12 bolts. The oil can be purchased from any alchemist or a Magic user. A magic used can make a bottle of oil with a lab and two days. A wand is a "short bow" and has 12 shots and needs oil as above. Orbs are "flasks of oil" and can be made in the same fashion as the staff and wand oil or real oil (needs a lab and two days). Oil cost is 5gp. We don't have the Cleric class so MU's can take up the religious roll. There is no distinct magic types (like Arcane vs Divine) only "magic" - as a result "potions of healing"(elven way bread, unguents, halfling cakes etc) are a bit more common. As are groves, road side shrines, mystic glades etc where praying or meditating will impart a heal and accelerate 'natural' healing (to use a religiously teamed site you MUST have declared a religion - alignment occasionally IS important at a "site" we only use the classic three LNC). We use a spell check system for casting and when you eventually fail at a cast you cant access that particular spell again (quite similar to "wolves and winter snow" OSR rpg). Memorisation is a thing and you cant memorise the same spell again. Also MU's can use INT in place of CHR (choices as to which to use) for social manipulation type stuff and to awe others with their wizardly-mien (this is lost if you multi-class) Although this is mostly just role-played we only roll if things get contentious. Last thing which I nearly forgot as its so second nature now - things the MU talks about tend to coincidentally come "sorta" true kinda. Its as though they are some how linked the the cosmic nature of magic. If the player tries to "push" this effect it never works. They have to simply be "open" to the wonder of magic and magic in turn reveals it self in subtle interplays with things coming to align with the magic-user or the world coming to align with the magic-user. This works wonderfully especially over time as you make note of little things the MU says and make them manifest in the world around them.
Nice
I'm way late to the conversation here, but I wanted to express my appreciation for this video as well. As someone who started with RPGs decades ago with AD&D, I've certainly seen the hobby change over time. I came to the conclusion that I prefer older, simpler rulesets like B/X before 5E was released, but I can't interest enough others in my local area to play it.
I feel that given modern expectations for RPGs, B/X Magic-users appear to be quite weak (at lower levels) and very limited in ability. This video did a great job of pointing out some of the considerations one should have to temper that assessment. I find that the problem with magic-users isn't what they *can't do*, more than it is reaching the understanding that in the older games, the character sheet wasn't a comprehensive document that covered everything that characters *can do*. As you mentioned, they are still another party member that can think, share ideas, know different things, stand on a trigger point, help solve puzzles or carry stuff, etc.
In my experience, combat wasn't what we spent most of our time doing during a game session. To claim that 1st level magic-users can only cast one spell and are then 'useless' for the rest of the day is sad. In B/X, a 1st level magic-user has the same armor class and hit points (or more with a CON bonus) of a normal human, along with better saving throws and a better base chance to hit. Add to that the ability to cast any spells at all and it is clear to see that they are certainly worthy of being categorized as an adventurer by the common folk.
There is a big difference in older versions of D&D and newer versions as it relates to the PCs place in the world. In the older games, no one was a hero at first level, whereas characters in newer games begin the games feeling like heroes or even superheroes. I believe understanding that fact first goes a long way to understanding how each of the classes in older rulesets can be fun and even function "as is". In games where you don't have to make a roll for every action you take, you don't need as much written on your character sheet.
*Edit for spacing.
Well said
Great ideas! Thanks!
Thank You!
Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on MUers. There are a number of fantastic options here. I find this vid very inspiring!
Awesome, thanks!
I could, and may in the future, comment on a hundred things in this video, but you mention allowing a 1st level MU to get a hireling. This is great advice. I would go so far as to make sure people get a chance to get hirelings up to their limit (if they can handle that many moving parts) within a few levels. If you allow your players to direct the hirelings, and you give them a few quirks, some interesting magic items, an odd ball ability, this essentially gives that PC who controls them power. But also because they may leave after any particular adventure where the Loyalty check happens to roll low, they could get killed (they are weaker than a PC) or they maybe back at base camp recovering, these aren't all the time resources.
That last bit is a great way of handling an over abundance of Hirelings. Some can be keeping an eye on the mercenaries, or healing up, or even back in town being an agent of the PC. This allows them to kind of be two places at once.
Hirelings can also fill that urge for the exotic. Yes they have to be weaker than the PC, but henchman that is a gnome, or a intelligent animal, or a minor monster can add bit of short term flavor to the game.
So yes, certainly for Magic Users, but for everyone else too!
And to be more magical, maybe let the MU have access to weird and magical henchmen. At a steep cost maybe (a leprechaun wants that gold), but having access to the minor magics of a henchman is sort of like a rented magic item, and it would make sense that magic user would know better how to deal with them. Maybe combined with some spell research sort of thing.... Just riffing on the idea here. I haven't thought this out completely yet.
For sure
Interesting for sure - I think I’d allow that if they met the magical being during an adventure - at least for a while
@@BanditsKeep That works out better actually. Maybe bring it on for the duration of the adventure. Maybe a thinking party may make a mini adventure on the way out to a dungeon or something to recruit (assuming we have a sandbox, self directed play situation, and they want to take the time to try their luck).
Naturally this wouldn't work for every kind of game. But for the more gonzo play style I prefer I think it would work pretty well.
I did a couple of things to make Magic Users more fun to play. Lore is a good one and involved a lot of intelligence checks, done behind the screen like every other check.
First was the staff. I allowed that a Magic User could take a staff as a weapon. Then they could enchant it by spending on day to carve their personal runes onto the staff. Once the runes were carved, they could cast any spell from their memory into the staff. The spell would remain in the staff for 1 week per level of the spell. One week for Sleep, two weeks for Invisibility, etc. The Magic User could cast one spell per every 6 levels into their staff. So one from levels 1-6, two at levels 7-12, etc.
A staff with stores spells in it could also be used by the Magic User only with bonuses in combat. Every spell cast into the staff gives the Magic User +1 to hit and damage when using it. Of course, once the spell was cast the bonuses would drop or be gone.
This makes the staff more useful and more desirable. All Magic Users want a Staff of the Archmagi, but this will due for now and give opponents something to thing about.
The next idea I stole from Dragonsfoot. The Wand of Wizardry. The Wand of Wizardry is constructed/gifted the the Magic User or his Master upon reaching First Level. It stores 1d6 charges that regenerate 1d4 at midnight or whenever. A bonus of 1/charge per level is added to stored charges and the charge regeneration. A Wand of Wizardry has the following abilities for 1 charge: Light and Magic Missle (one missile only). For 3 charges: the Magic Missle can be changed to an Elemental Missile projecting either a fire missile, an ice missile, a lightning missile or a rock/stone missile. The function is that it is useful in combat. For each charge expended, the Sand of Wizardry does d6+1 hp damage. All Missles require a successful to hit roll. And the Wand of Wizardry costs 100gp. This cost must be paid with the Magic Users starting money.
Just a few ideas to make Magic Users more fun and interesting with more options.
Cool! I Like the idea of the staff being a magic weapon, adding additional spells per day to me anyways does not seem to be the “answer” but there are so many options and it really depends so much on the group.
@@BanditsKeep It only gives them one or two more spells. And it can be any spell so they can plan ahead or have a backup. Also, it supports the "Magic User has a staff" stereotype. "What hideous thing will he do to us now?" If he loses it, he will try to get it back as well.
Like the Wand of Wizardry, it is just enough to get a Magic User started and not feel useless after he casts his one spell and throws all five of his daggers. I thought this was very important for the new players of the group so they feel like part of the party and not just the pack mule.
@@cunningwarrior1827 I get it. I just feel like there are never "enough" spells for some players to feel part of the group.
This was really good, like the wand idea. I think a select number of cantrip would be useful say 3 one combative 1-2 dam, defence 1 ac bonus and an affect trip, or daze.
Could be interesting, of course now you have a MU With unlimited range attacks
What about limiting the number of castings to 6 per day? They could cast the same cantrip 6 times or the 3 twice day.
Dragonbane always had a small minor magic category, and kept them around in the new english edition. As a rule, none of them are attack spells. A wizard who wants to attack a fool but has no mana grabs the biggest bow (or sling, or throwing dagger) their puny wizard arms can hold and trains in how to use it. The minor magic spells are small and situational. A spell to shake dirt off your clothes, make the temperature in a room or tent comfortable, levitate a small coin, light a camp fire in even bad weather etc. They are not completely useless but not as useful as a real spell that can heal wounds, set a fool on fire or freeze a river.
@@BanditsKeep I haven't used cantrips at all, except in Dragonbane. What kind of effects would make for a good cantrip?
@@Sageofthedustypage I am not a huge fan of cantrips myself. I like to give wizards the same basic chance to use skills and weapons as a level 0 mercenary. So your MU can stab with a spear or shoot a kalashnikov like a basic goon.
Lots of great ideas in this video
Thank You!
Great advice! Got here via google and now subbed. TY. 🤘
Welcome aboard!
Thank you for the informative video.
This helped to bring the class into a better understanding for me.
Up to now I'd been thinking of only spells, and not the extra's like scrolls and wands. As I look as the character sheet for a B/X character, there aren't the lines and lines of skills, feats, and talents. This video helped bring to light, like you said, that this is a smart intelligent character. And we are free as GM's and players to take the character beyond the simple character sheet.
I like your suggestion too of allowing the character to substitute their intelligence checks for charisma to help influence a bluff or mystical looking charade. This makes perfect sense too. The hired henchman was good one too.
Many good ideas I've now tucked away.
For other videos. I really enjoyed your dungeon creation video. It was fun to follow along in my PDF copy and see how you developed that dungeon. It would be easy to say to do more of those, but I'm not sure what else could be added to it or improved to add on to it. It was a fun video to follow along with, and it was great to see how you thought it all out and came up with something fun. If you were planning on writing a scenario or another small dungeon for your gaming groups, then it would be nice to be along for that brainstorming session.
Thank you for your videos. I know they're a lot of work, but they help keep the creativity and excitement going.
Thanks so much for your kind words, I do enjoy making dungeons so if it seems interesting to people I will likely do another version.
I think a potential fix for B/X magic users is ritual casting from 5e. You can have in your spell book a number of first level spells equal to your int bonus eg read magic. These spells can be cast as a ritual from your spell book with a casting time of ten minutes. That way the MU has one daily spell and some ten minute tricks like dispel magic
I’ve found just adding more spells doesn’t always work - also dispel magic is one of the most powerful spells in BX 😊
@@BanditsKeep Esoteric Enterprises has ritual magic for over-level spells. The first thing the crew figured out was that they could use level 5 Animate Dead to have a single skele-bloke helper around. Magic is also more awkward in many ways, it's much harder to learn new magic. Every single time you transcribe a new spell from a weird book you found there's a chance for disaster. The second thing the crew learned about magic was that doing spells could burn their house down. But each wizard can learn any spell and ritually use it if they find the right book. And finding the right book is the hard part.
Ritual magic in the undeworld takes a turn. You are not going to use that in combat. Normal rules for random encounters apply, you are standing there chanting for ten minutes in a weird bunker among cave bears.
Using magic in the safety of the city above is more dangerous. Not because magic works differently, but because using magic attracts the state's attention. There is no spell to Dispel Cops.
Brilliant advice on languages ty
Thank You!
"If they don't have to earn it, it's less interesting." Great statement! I would add that if they don't earn it, then they'll not really care anyway and the gimmie is just a worthless gesture that holds no value. Can be the feeling of much of the modern 5E/PF2E systems in general to me. Thx for these and keep it up. I would love more Magic User input, because as one online DM put it to me recently, "I wouldn't recommend a single class magic user in our online [1E/Zero lvl-start] Greyhawk because they are just way too 'squishy'." It saddened me that basically I was subtley "warned" off of the character I wanted to play really.
I think the challenge there is that if the dungeon master is not willing to work with you on making your MU awesome.
@@BanditsKeep Yep. Kinda my feeling too. He's a great guy, with tons and tons of experience and knowledge and even has ran for the "big names" from the TSR old days, but I do feel a bit 'forced'. Yes, I may squish and die, or, I may have good support and make it.
So much to ponder in this one, really worth going back over several times to be honest.
Have you seen the Mage character class in OSE now? It has some really interesting abilities and a different take on an OSR style spell caster. I think it is from Carcass Crawler. Also Folk Magic of the Haven Isles by Monkeyblood has some interesting twists to add to MU's as kind of skins. Also I think Dolmenwood has various breeds of dogs parties can buy with some great varieties.
I love the suggestions here, Wands, Hirelings, rituals. MU's are a bit of an empty class in a way, but really I think they highlight something about the early versions of the games. It was all basic and we were at liberty to tinker and expand on ideas. These kinds of ideas are great too, they dont break the game but they start to imply more about the setting as you go too. A MU with his librarian bodyguard, wielding a scroll case or an antique but otherwise normal sword. Suddenly you can start adding in setting rich details... Does the hireling have to be human, the sorcerer in Tower of the Elephant had a trained or ensorcelled ape thing in a red cape as his bodyguard... You dont always want to unbalance things or make everything too flashy too early but there is precedence in the literature all over the place, it just depends on the setting you're playing in to make it work I guess.
For sure - charm person on an intelligent ape would be a great move!
New to OSR. Love your channel. This is great, planning to play a MU next.
Thanks, that’s awesome! 🪄
My thoughts exactly. Good video.
Thank You!
I tend to like "skill-based" systems best, and this video gave me an idea for a new character archetype; a kind of sorcerer/charlatan.
Firstly, the character IS a sorcerer and does real magic. But he also is skilled at a very specific kind of bluff. He makes liberal use of powders, simple chemical reactions, cold reading, and the like to simulate "magical" effects. This can be used as a grift, but I'm thinking it is more a way to awe and intimidate folk. And if he's ever called out, he can break out the real magic as needed. Better yet is to mix the real and the fake to keep observers guessing and off balance.
As an example, in a fight the mage throws down a simple smoke bomb for concealment, casts a light spell on a sling stone, then fires it off with his sling (or just hucks it, whatever). It looks fancy and does several useful things; concealment, illumination, and a physical attack.
Good stuff, Bandit. Thanks.
Nice!
I think any character could pull that off. It's not a class feature, you as a player come up with a neat idea and put it into practice. You could have a hobbit hidden with a speaking cone in the smoke who waves a torch around and impersonates a demon rising from a portal on the floor.
As a fun side note: Earthdawn wizards have the Arcane Muttering skill. The wizard mutters incomprehensible and ominous things that might or might not be a spell to people who hear it.
I had an idea for cantrips that any PC can cast a number of cantrips equal to some number per day (number being maybe Proficiency bonus in 5e, or character level, or equal to the number of spell slots), and any cantrip beyond that costs a level of exhaustion (5e) or cost them a hit point.
Oh, that’s a neat idea - I like using exhaustion. In my high level 5e game that was one thing I used to great success to challenge the group
For those unfamiliar (as I was) ASE = Anomalous Subsurface Environment. I checked it out. It does indeed look cool.
For sure
Most of the games I've played in forego weapon limitations. A magic-user can use all weapons a level 0 mercenary can use with the same skill as one. So typically +0 in attack bonus. Sometimes the MU can even wear the equivalent of mail armour, as long as the combined weight of their kit doesn't make them encumbered. But if Ralph-Gandalf wants to take the chance with his wizard HD and a sword, or take potshots from the back lines with a spear or a thompson that's perfectly good. Sometimes a system allows everyone to at least attempt thief skills, including an MU. You might not be as good as others but you can at least try.
Nice
Thanks for the video...even though it's 3 years old. After a second watch of this video i have a few new thoughts.
I like, and will steal, so many of your ideas. However, it has never made sense that a magic user, wizard to be precise, should not know read magic and prestidigitation. The first one is essential to learning magic and the second one is described as, "a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice." It seems like all wizards should know these from the start. Sorcs and warlocks are a different story. Good thought on scrolls...I'm going to up there drop in my campaign.
I never had a problem with playing a MU with but one spell at the beginning.
There is so much more you can do in the group to free up with other Characters.
They seemed to be the natural choice to map. and carry extra dungeoneering supplies, copy out runes or glyphs or riddles. You are still part of the team that is all working together to overcome the dungeon challenges
That one spell was the ace card up your sleeve so part of the excitement was picking the right moment for it.
Something I dont get with 5e cantrip rays per round attacks.
I agree completely
According to dungeon craft (I think) Gary gygax started PCs at level 3, the implication being that level 1-2 was for NPCs.
And carrying torches so the fighter can have sword and shield out
My MU learned to play the trumpet once. This was part of a plan.
I tend to allow everyone, including MUs, to use weapons and tools as a level 0 mercenary. You can drop people with a sling or stab from the back line with a spear, just not as good as a fighter. And especially not with the HD of a fighter.
Inspired by your channel, I have decided to give BX a look (i started with BECMi). I was really surprised with the Rule that you cannot have more spells in your spellbook than you can memorize. Given the importance of Read Magic for scrolls and the such. OD&D allows for spell research so I am assuming they do not have restrained number of spells. BX rules as written is brutal on the MU.
Yes, a BX MU does not have it easy that’s for sure!
@@BanditsKeep have you ever played BX R.A.W? What spells did the MU pick?
@@rolanejo8512 always - a mix depending on the player popular are sleep, read magic, charm person for level 1
I was following along with John Wick's 30 characters from 30 games challenge a while back, so I made a magic user from OSE, which I heard plenty about, but haven't played. I agree the level one guy didn't feel particularly magical with his Read Magic, dagger, and bag of crap. I had enough random starting cash for a retainer though. I was pretty excited, because my worst witch became a team of adventure bastards starting on the painfully slow path toward power (or doom).
If I can trick- I mean convince our 5e group into trying a B/X one shot I think adding a little extra magic (especially familiars) would help them like it more.
For sure, if you are coming from a game that has “at will” spellcasting etc., it can be a hard sell unless they’ve already shown boredom at that level of power.
A familiar? You mean the demon that helps the witch-marked curse others, talk to the dead through the devil, and--Oooh! It's a Cat! I love it, love it, love it!
*Everyone else* "Demon-dog of fire and hell!" Cue witch-burning music...
ah yes, a familiar can be a great resource or the source of your demise depending on the town :)
An age-old statment with regards to early game magic users that I go by: You have weapon profficiencies for a reason. Slings are better than people give them credit for.
Indeed
2e darts are more dangerouns than they look. You can toss out three of them per round. The only downside is short range, but a dart-fight on the streets would be pretty nasty.
I think of them as oversized roman military darts, more than a pub dart and same or bigger than a lawn dart.
Just came across this channel........then I thought cameras.....then I thought cool if you played guitar......behold in the background. Loved the photo stuff so I am sure this will be cool.
Welcome aboard!
I love magic missile
Charles Dickens complained that it takes a half-hour to light a candle from a tinder box. Have your players attempt it on a cloudy, moonless night knowing that you might jump out and spray them with pepper spray at any moment to give them the feel of having a candle or torch go out in a dungeon.
This is why you keep multiple sources of flame going
MERP has extensive rules for this, because MERP/Rolemaster rolls that way. Depending on tools and situation it takes a number of rounds to light a torch or a camp fire. The game uses wonderfully low-brow spells like heating water.
This matters when some healing herbs need to be prepared. You can't just slap a potion into a dude, all herbs have a specific way to use them. Some require brewing them into fresh tea.
In Call of Cthulhu and other games set closer to our time, there are more alternatives accessible to the PCs. Players like to get an electric torch if they can. Later on in Delta Green, everyone has a modern flashlight and your feds run around with 90's cell phones.
Matches appear relatively early. There is a number of historical matches of odd design you can use. Ones where a small glass pellet or phial with acid provides the ignition, ones where you strike them against any rough surface etc. Most of the time you transport a flame from one place to another with a wooden or cloth wick.
The two things that drove me away from D&D many years ago were Hit Points and Vancian Magic. I have made 2 simple changes to magic.
The first is that spells are not forgotten when cast. So if a magic-user can cast 3 level 1 spells, he can memorize and cast 3 spells like normal, except that he can cast each spell once, one spell three times, or whatever combination he likes.
The other change is something I borrowed from Microlite and haven't tested yet, but it allows: the magic-user to cast additional spells by sacrificing HP equal to the spell's level X2. These HP cannot be regained through mundane means and must be healed through divine magic.
I also like one idea that was presented in Carcass Crawler for OSE: the Mage class cannot memorize spells, and must cast them from scrolls, but they have a collection of innate abilities that they can use at will, similar to the special abilities of thieves/ rogues.
Interesting- personally I’d change the hearing to mundane only so it is always a true cost of time.
@@BanditsKeep I can see why you would choose that, but I should mention that I will possibly have healing magic be less common than in many campaigns.
I also have HP heal faster than normal because I am borrowing the idea of Body Points from Microlite, which are like HP, but each character only has 10. They are slow to heal and impose penalties. So a character who has taken damage to their Body Points might be at -2 to all physical actions, for example.
But what I will probably end up doing is have the magic-user sacrifice 1 BP per spell level, making much more of a last resort for them when they *really* need that one extra spell.
@@jcraigwilliams70 makes sense
What did you do about the HP?
@@jcraigwilliams70 One of my friends wrote a dark wizard class half as a joke, it was a fun excuse to laugh and make up spells based on black metal song titles. Their idea was a wizard who cast from hp. You stab yourself and out comes a spell. I think we managed to make it too hard though, it was likely that a dark wizard would stab themselves to death at level 1. I rolled one up as a test, and I dared not use any magic!
I love the few suggestions you make, and definety plan on incorporating them into an upcoming campaign. I'm planning on taking a load of my 5e mates on a BECMI Mystara based adventure. What I don't like in my 5e game that I'm playing in, is the regular off game session is all the spellcasters(which there are a hell of a lot of in 5e) sitting down and comparing spell choices etc, and picking through the big master list of all the spells available at all levels and plotting out how to maximise spells etc. They shouldn't be... Oh I can't wait to get to level 5 because I can cast this cool spell then, it should be when they get to level 5, they are awed at the new spell that they didn't know they could do up to that point.
Arcane magic users should be a mysterious bunch, and part of the journey of playing the class should be the discovery of what spells and powers they can develop. A 1st level MU shouldn't know all the spells that will ever be available to them, they should be aware of the few spells at their level that their mentor gave them access to, and a vague idea of the types of powers that MUs they have met have shown. eg... they know their Mentor had the ability to cast a lightning bolt from his hands, I hope I can learn how to do that someday. Much like magicians in our world, they are very slow to divulge their secrets, and break the magic circle. Your particular mentor at low level, out of affection and presumably thanks for the help you have given them as an apprentice prior to you deciding to go out and become an adventurer, has gifted you with some low level spells for the first few levels, and perhaps a letter of reference and some names that you can use to get help say when you get to Specularum, to get you access to some more low level spells. But beyond that, its up to the MU in their adventures to seek out and discover new unknown magics.
Another thing I found was a big list of spells, that spanned BECMI and 1st Edition AD&D, and there were some regional variants mixed in. So if your party finds itself in Minrothad, and come across a Magic User willing to share some knowledge, the player might be able to pick up some spells involving the Sea or the Maritime world. Or if they are in Ylarum they might come across spells that involve manipulating sand, or something similar. And of course if they are really serious about developing their magic to its full height, they should be pushing the party to go to Glantri or Alphatia so that they can get access to high level education in the magical arts.
The other house rule I plan to use, is that while the number of spells they can cast per day won't change, and they still can only memorise a certain number of spells, the memorised spells only come into play during encounters. eg, those are the spells they know off by heart, and are able to cast off the cuff. In less stressful periods, they can take out their spellbook and cast the spell from book. This still uses up a daily spell slot, but allows for greater variety of spells to be used. For example, the party has just defeated a small dragon, the danger is over, the clerics are tending to the wounds of the fighters etc, and you are facing a massive treasure trove that you need to get safetly out of the dungeon. The MU can open up their book and if they still have a first level spell slot unused for the day, they can cast Floating disc from the book, to help carry the loot. They don't have to have memorised it in the morning. Or if they come across some scrolls, they can take some downtime, and the MU can look up Read magic. I was planning on making them have to do an intelligence check(with penalties depending on the level of the spell) in reading scrolls of levels beyond their current level. So theoretically they could be left with some mysterious scroll for some time of some powerful spell, but not sure what that spell is yet, until their level and knowledge of magic improves. Lends to the mystery I think.
I'd love to hear how you do elven magic, as to me, it does seem more inate, and not 'booky'
A lot of good deals here. I would not require a check to know a scroll spell if they cast read magic though, or are you saying instead of?
@@BanditsKeep Was just thinking in terms of scrolls with spells above their pay grade...eg level.
For example a MU capable of 3rd level spells finds a scroll with Invisible Stalker(L6). Attempts to read magic, makes an intel roll at -3(6-3), if they fail they simply know that there is a powerful spell beyond their current ability and comprehension, might hint at its general nature. eg it seems to be some sort of summoning spell. I'd let them try again at L4. So that way they are left in possession of this unknown powerful spell, giving it an air of mystery. Was just a thought.
You'd have to have sat in on my current 5e games to understand my motivation. The one bard has researched so much that she know each spell in detail and which ones she is planning on taking until level 10 or so. The Wizard is torn about multi-tasking with druid as their are spells on both spell lists that she wants and is trying to figure out what order she wants to get to the particular spells. And at every level up they have conversations hours long with the other spell casters trying to maximise their spell lists between them. To me it takes the magical feel out of Magic.
Was looking through your videos, do you touch on elven magic, in that Elf video you posted. I watched it at some point, but don't recall it being discussed.
PS... I totally agree with you on the 5E familiar, I love the idea of only being able to summon it upon a full moon. :)
@@peadarruane6582 as I believe one of the strengths of the OSR magic -user is casting higher level spells from scrolls, that’s not a a rule I would implement, but you know your table and what is right for them.
@@BanditsKeep very good point, will have to weigh things up. Just prepping my campaign now and deciding on which optional and house rules to use. A magic user would still be able to cast higher level spells off scrolls but just not guaranteed.
thanks for the advice, and your videos have been brilliant in helping me shape my thoughts on various issues. :). Keep up the good work.
@@peadarruane6582 interesting comments. I like your idea of regional magic, I'm 100% stealing that.
I feel your pain about your magic users, but in another way I love it. It fits with my idea of mu's as arcane lorr geeks crossed with archeologists who, when they're not out hunting for rare spell books, scrolls, and treasure, or buried under a mountain of research in a dusty library, are in a back room of a tavern smoking their longleaf pipes and waxing philosophical with other magic-users.
I don't know how your players would feel about it, but you could houserule some unpredictability into your magic system via DCC or something similar. If not built into your game from the start, you could introduce it in as a mysterious affliction affecting all spell casters. Who or what is causing your characters' formerly predictable magic to suddenly misbehave??
I like to let the MU use the wand as a "spell focus" allowing 1 spell per level to be cast like a sorcerer the same spell can't be cast twice in a day.
Cool!
I am enjoying your channel as a 46 year old who cut their teeth on Ad&d2e.
@@bartitsulab Awesome, thanks!
I have long loved and played 1E but always thought the magic user should have some type of spell, 1 or 2, which can be cast per round but not over-powered of course and increase in power as they level up. As far as scrolls as a DM a lot of the lower level encounters using RAW treasure rewards just do not provide a lot of scrolls to be found. I like your idea of a wand to store up spells.
IF you feel Magic-users need a boost, try free cantrips ( like lighting a candle, small stuff) familiars, a staff or wand( they can store a level 1 spell in), a bonus for Intelligence, ability to detect magic( even powerful casters), a free magic blast ( just equal to thrown dagger)some starting scrolls. One of those options could help, but i never found it necessary. I do give Read Magic as a free skill to MU.
That can all work depending on the table - but I personally would never give unlimited magic to a MU no matter how weak it might seem, IMO you are immediately setting up a high magic world when you do.
@@BanditsKeep players never abused it, so it depends. They used it for weird dramatic affects. Light candles, stay dry in rain while others got soaked, made their eyes glow or voice boom to intimidate, make a plant bloom, scare a guard dog. I tried several different things over the years, im an old gamer, and once had a solid core group that played regularly.
@@shockerck4465 sure, but if the 1st level MU can do that, so can any 1st level MU so unless you limit MU to PCs people all over the place are constantly casting spells (minor as they are) thus a high magic setting IMO - not that there is anything wrong with that, just not my thing
@@BanditsKeep in my campaign Magic users are very rare, along with demihumans.
@@shockerck4465 Cool, so you balance it by limiting MU. That can certainly maintain a lower magic feel IMO - if that's what you are going for
Power is power, PC or NPC will find a way to try to disprove your abilities. It's better to have spells and be powerful than have pretense. RP can work, in my experience DMs and players all find a reason to test your abilities.
I'm working on a house rule system that allows wizards the cast unlimited spells, but they have to succeed at spellcraft checks for every cast.
Failure makes them take damage, and destroys to spell component. They cannot cast that spell again until they acquire the component or focus again.
Cool
We give a bonus number of spell levels per day equal to Int bonus. So if your Int or Wis (for clerics) is 18, you get 3 bonus spell levels per day, so 3 1st, a 1st & and 2nd or 1 3rd level spell per day. Helps at low levels, but not overpowering later.
Nice!
Great video. I start my players' MU's with detect magic, read magic, and two additional spells of their choice. They can still only cast one per day, but they have a choice of what they want to memorize. I'm also a fan of scrolls (especially for clerics!), potions, and wands as treasure. I tend to limit, at least during the "Basic" levels, permanent magic items, such as magic armor, shields, and weapons. I'm a fan of mid to high level characters using non-magical equipment, especially in AD&D games, since it costs magic-users a point of Constitution to create a permanent magic item. Not too many wizards want to wreck their health to create a sword +1 they can't even use!
I hadn't considered the familiar for B/X games or the wand idea. I'd like to see those rules in print and study them before I adopt them. Are they posted anywhere?
I found your channel recently, and I'm enjoying your content. Looking forward to more videos.
I don't have those rules formalized (for others to use) as yet, but when I do l’ll announce it here for sure.
I do the same for elves, but I also allow then to choose from MU or the Cleric spell chart. However once chosen that is the only type of spells they can use.
Oh interesting, I like that
My friends decided to smack clerics and MUs together into one class. There was no effective difference between the lists. There was no half-fighter, armoured spellcaster alternative like clerics at all. A priest is simply a bloke in a robe functonally similar to an MU. Spells have three optional categories, you can decide that all MUs follow one of these. An MU priest then becomes functionally a white wizard.
Right now I like the Esoteric Enterprises priests. The difference isn't what spells you got but how you toss them. Clerics use magic by skill check. If the skill fails, your god comes calling to you instead. The gods are capricious, jealous twats who can grant you five spells in a row or demand that you dance and sing for them like a monkey as you attempt the first of the day. The DM rolls to see which spells the god chooses to grant, it's a system that constantly reinforce how dependent you are on your deity. Sometimes god calls and wants you to burn $1000 in PCP right frickin now.
I never understood why clerics got bonus spells and MUs didn’t, so I gave bonus spells for high intelligence
This seems to be a
Common thing house rule
My last game shop also played AD&D2ndE, D&D3rdE, 3.5e, WotC Star Wars along with WEG west end games d6 system Star Wars, Whitewolf/World of Darkness(WoD): vampire,werewolf, mage the awakening, and Changeling the lost. Running a D&D lower plane campaign dealing with fiends and demons WoD had a better system of magic in dealing with such things. Since my shop like D&D hit point system they just employed 1d10 for each stamina die/dot their PC had to determine wound point penalties for health level dmg.
In WoD all PC are equal in stamina effects out comes, but they went with HP to show which PC surfer exhaustion earlier before the other PC does.
2.) Mixing system house home brew rules.
a.) AD&D weapon speed initiatives, along with optional rules for Weapon Type vs Armor Type.
b.) WEG Star Wars, recovering and gaining Force Points and making two skill checks per round at half dice value. Which for WotC D&D/Star Wars we made two skill checks at half skill ranks. The Jedi Knight bonus feat at 8th-level allows the PC to make a specialize skill chosen as two skill checks at full value.
c.) WoD, magic is a funny thing to balance out. 4th-level spell Polymorph Other/Baneful Polymorph allows a caster to kill about any rival by turning them into a snail. So ability transform or adjusting ability stats are of equal level. Loosely base a D&D wizard at 11th-level using 6th-level spells can reshape, depower, or permanently increase the stats of a Succubus. We had some fun Blood War campaigns.
Interesting
Star Wars D6 is a skill-based magic system, I recall. Force-users roll a skill to activate an ability. I remember that the force abilities swung wildly in power. From holding your breath (instead of buying a rebreather) really long to picking blaster shots out of the air with your hand to the terribly scary lightsaber combat power. Lightsaber combat was gnarly.
I don't know too much about the WoD magic systems. Vampires activates theirs with blood, you can hold x amount of blood at any given time (stronger leeches hold more) and you refill by mugging a human. My friends who have played Mage describe it as doing what the heck you want until the universal consensus on reality slaps some sense into you. Not sure what they do in Werewolf or Changeling.
@@SusCalvin Few points, and thanks for joining the comment thread.
a.) Lightsaber combat was gnarly.
Such combat was made up of the three Force dice attributes which in WotC 3e became feats.
i.) Control/ constitution for anything related to the character's body such as improved athletic and blocking/parry/dodge/attack along with improving initiative reaction times.
Force skills: self healing, hold breath, mad dash sprint/burst of speed. Hide/force stealth. ( which Anakin, Palpatine, Leia, and Mara Jade natural had.)
ii.) Sense/wisdom of .. knowing .. where incoming attacks are going to land so you can block/dodge in coming damage.
Force skills: Far seeing ( past, present, future.)[ Detect force/life, detect danger. Later renamed as Sense Force. ]
iii.) Alter/intelligence fore effecting other people and the world around you.
Force skills, move object, choke/harm, and later with WotC effect/affect minds= post hypnotic suggestion. Along illusions.
( .. at the moment can't remember or both looking up Fear being Sense or Alter. )
Lightsaber combat or Force combat made up with Sense and Control to parry incoming attacks, follow with Control to angle the weapon to deflect in coming shot and Sense to target the attacker with ricochet bullet/blaster bolt with Alter to increase damage on return fire.
Side note, vibro axes had a higher base damage than what a lightsaber did.
2.) With WotC 3e we did soft where if you had 5ranks in Bluff it granted a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy skill rolls.
So if n/pc or PC has 5ranks in Sense they get a +2defense or attack, 5ranks of Control +2attack/defense, 5ranks of Alter gets a +2dmg.
Then the video game " Force Unleased " came out, to we sent everything into hyperdrive.
Player, " It over kill to have the Jedi with 10ranks in each Force feat to gain a +10 to def/atk/dmg rolls ! "
Other player, " My soldier has a full auto shot gun that fires thermit rpgs so this is a fast were down on Jedi and Sith a like."
Third player, " My Sith rolls Sense to detect your weapon and Alter/move object to blow your ammo. Bye so roll a new PC."
@@SusCalvin As for the other WoD book settings, Werewolf draw spirit energy such as Yoda darkside cave and deal with spirit beings. Seeing werewolves / other shape shifters and their spirit magic throws people with low Willpower scores into denial of what they saw. Even going out of their way to dismiss what they saw as some form of hocus/prank.
Changeling feed off of humans emotional energy to power their .. spells. Autum court is ruled by fear and a first level spell is Withering Glare which dehydrates target. So it is a close short range Force Choke but requires water/rest or Gatorade to recover.
As for WEG system and WotC 3e Star Wars with character dice pool or level skill ranks and saving throws.
The only way Luke could barely hold his own on Cloud City was using the darkside.
Christ sakes all Vader had to do was use Effect Mind and tell Luke to go to sleep, the fight never even started.
Then you have the Emperor, he could play the sweet old grandfather or uncle arch type and have you feel guilty for even having bad feelings about him.
Yes I know first there was the original trilogy then came the RPG after the early 1980's Marvel comics tie in. Later the Dark Horse comics and novels started to cover all the plot holes in the movies. Such as a comic Leia being hunter by a bounty hunter mistaking her for senator Padme from the end of the Clone Wars that went missing, who later had a niece that Leia was a senator with during the 1990's novels leading up to Jedi New Order post 25+ years after Endor.
Why didn't the Emperor used Padme's family to bait Luke ?
Then you have Mara Jade, who spooked Vader to jump ship in an escape pod by setting up charges to blow the ship he was on. She just sat quiet as the command crew trying to figure out what made Vader jump. So they flip the story plot role and had Palpatine do the same thing to the Jedi council. Vader never knew who did that to him.
The writes of Mara Jade drop that Mara & Palpatine used the Force to cloak/disguise themselves and show ship feed that the both of them were on Home One and could kill Mon Martha anytime they wanted, it was all a game to Palpatine.
Then you had Mara & Luke's son Ben Skywalker who had a Lost tribe of Sith girl friend at 24years old before Disney buy out.
@@krispalermo8133 People who have played more Star Wars D6 than me suggest that jedi tend to overtake everything else. Some even suggest that a group either be no jedi or all jedi,
You buy specific force powers for your three skills. It looked like they wanted to have every single force power you see in the movies present. When Vader grabs Han's blaster shots out of the air, that is a specific force power.
1st level M-U can carry a few flasks of oil, so as to continue to play their proper role, and training the rest of the party to ware fireballs.
For sure
Magic Missle as a BX class features for magic users rather than a spell: Drop any memorized spell slot to release a burst of raw arcane power floor d6+1 damage, no save.
Interesting option - the Wonders and Wickedness system does something like that
@@BanditsKeep when I was a kid my DM allowed clerics to drop prepared spells for cure lite wounds. I thought that was slightly unbalanced but I liked the idea of the mechanic.
I think the sorcerer class was built on this. You still got spell slots, but they aren't pre-loaded. As a drawback you have less, or they aren't as powerful. It created a class with more intuitive magic that couldn't match the raw book-learning power of a good ol' wizard.
I think that there is a very simple solution but requires deep rules changes- rolling for magic. A good example is warhammer 2ed. Magic is dangerous, it can mutate you, use with caution.
I write my own rules set, there every spellcaster is rolling, clerics included, but also all non clerics, have wild magic, when wierd random things can happen.
Not a fan of rolling for magic personally, but if it works for your group, that’s awesome
@@BanditsKeep An important detail in WFRP is magic points. The more wizard careers you complete, the more you get. So you are both casting magic from mana and with a check.
Oddly I went with staves instead of wands, which is basically lifting from Fastasy Trip. I layer the knowledge of making (or "crafting") more sophisticated versions into the game so that say the enchanter's staff can hold extra spells of that type. I totally agree with the language thing, negotiation with monsters is like what's supposed to happen.
"Benefit of the doubt" is the alternative to rolling dice. It can be difficult to get used to, but it pays off imo.
Almost all monsters in old d&d don't use Vancian magic either with their 3/day innate abilities. Why not buff the MU with read/detect 3/day? Or the wand can do it? Idk
Monsters are not PCs IMO they play by different rules
@@BanditsKeep right, but there is a lot ofnon-vancian magic going on out there.