Dungeon Exploration the old school way (D&D)
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- čas přidán 31. 08. 2020
- Here I talk about how Moldvay basic shaped my play style and how I think a 40-year-old example of play is still relevant today.
You can get the Basic Book here:
www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Old School Essentials:
www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
Welcome to Bandit's Keep where we play a variety of tabletop role playing games! - Zábava
I started playing in 3.5, and I always wanted to play old school style. I tried reading and playing AD&D 1st edition, but everytime I just went to a "modern" mindset. I finally "got" old school D&D when I read Moldvay Basic: suddenly every little D&D idiosincracy I found useless made sense to me, like the need for henchmen, knowing more than one language, even encumbrance made sense!! I find that is a brillantly simple and elegant ruleset. Previously I had 5e in a pedestal for it's clarity, but Moldvay Basic wins for me now.
Cool, yes I feel the same, there is something a lot the system and more I think the way it is written that just clicks for me.
I started with 3.0 and we did have a map being drawn in real time, though it was the DM who was drawing it.
Yeah, this really is an elegant ruleset. Another one that did it well was the BECMI version... which is almost the same as B/X... but has a really nice solo "choose your own adventure" style adventure to sort of introduce complete newbies to how the game played. It can be argued that it is more effective than this "example of play" transcript. Both work very well, of course.
The DM rolling the player's perception and investigation to keep it secret is genius. I'm definitely going to do that next time.
It's baffling why the structured gameplay of dungeoncrawling was removed. I've always felt like dungeons (at least in 5e) the few times they came up were boring. It just amounted to players pointing on a map telling the DM where they wanted to go, and the DM just reading out the rooms, and maybe an occasional encounter.
I definitely think it’s a different feel, and when I first started running fifth edition I used a few dungeons, but mostly my campaign took place out in the world so to speak as I felt like that was better suited to the system. For my taste anyways
I started with ADnD, but some years later found a group playing basic, and had loads of fun.
Nice! Seems so many people went from Basic to Advanced, it’s good to see the other way works just as well.
I really like the way you've gone back to an original source. Early examples of play are golden.
Thanks! Yes, I agree. I feel like the example of play and mini adventure should be standard in most games to help set the mood and expectations.
Great stuff. Just subbed. 52 year yo, playing since 80. Started with basic, then Ad&d for many decades. Now am getting ready to start up Basic/Expert game based on the old school Xpert continent that became The Known World and then Mystara.
It has been great reading the old books, and showing my wife the picture of the female fighter in chainmail that fascinated my 10 year old mind. The fact that she resembles that drawing in several ways was not lost on her.
Awesome
I love this example of play, thank you for stepping us through and clarifying! RIP Black Dougal
Thanks
Discovered B/X fairly recently, was introduced through 3rd edition back in 2000, and I wish I had found this first. Less is more, and the B/X books give you the perfect framework to create your own fantasy setting. Rules lite, which is best, easily expanded upon, inexpensive, and totally wonderful. Had players try it, worrying that it was too "limited" because it didn't have the mountain of stuff that later editions came with, but we all realized that all the millions of spells and powers in later editions are just video game-flavored fluff that greatly limits how you interact with the game world. B/X has more peril, which always makes for a better game. No ultra high fantasy characters who can just phase/teleport through everything and AOE damage all the monsters in their path.
For sure
You are singing my song, brother. Am getting back to the elegant simplicity of the basics!
Best purchase I ever made was the D&D rules Cyclopedia from a Half Price Books years ago. I still have my other books, but this is still great. I think it can also be bought at Drive Thru RPG.
Man I'd always glossed over these examples of play. I just assumed it was for somebody who didn't know what rpgs were and that I wouldn't need it. That turned out completely wrong! There's some really useful info in there on how it was played. Thanks for the video!
I believe that is a common thought and I see more and more new RPGs do. It include them. I find an example to be the best way to get across the “vibe” of a game personally
Thanks for another great video Daniel! You really capture what it was like to discover RPG's way back when they were brand new. Looking forward to the next installment.
Thanks Jack!
So many times I've read this example over the years. Thanks for going over it like this. Great job!
Thanks! This is something I too pick up and read every once in a while.
its a brilliant and simplistic system, i use it to this day
To me this really is the core of the adventure
From what I've read over the years, the "Caller" is an artifact from when Gygax used to run large groups (by some accounts 20+ people at once) it was just too confusing to let everyone speak. The caller is the intermediary, but not necessarily the leader.
Sure they can be - but I find the leader of the group often acts as the caller in my experience
Just stumbled across this, Daniel. I look forward to working my way through your back catalogue. I hope you continued to read through the book.
Thanks! I do a couple more readings
I can't get enough of these vids
Glad I stumbled on your channel and I'm really enjoying the podcast, too
Excellent, thanks!
Excellent breakdown, well done. This was the usual methodology used when I started playing WAAAAYYYY back in the days of the White box rules..
Nice! Thanks
Another great video, Daniel. Looking forward to the next installment. The dungeon is as living a thing as any of the characters and this style of play accentuates this.
Yes!
The fact he has conveyed that gets another compliment from me. I try to convince people of why the Dungeon is alive and living and like an ecosystem when they wonder at the strangeness and monsters living down. It is truly a magnificience of the Secondary World of the Story and its own Laws of Nature, and why Dungeons and Dragons, despite all of its failure and plagiarism, had a strong and unique streak of Originality and Adventure to it at the very beginning.
Moldvay was the first D&D I had, tho I never played it. It taught me all about the game, and I was hooked. At the time, I had no one else to game with, but I spent hours just making characters, and playing with the dice, and reading the book, and learning all about the game. Then Mom heard that it was evil and made me throw away my Moldvay. I cry about it to this day. Those demonstrations of play were the best, tho. They really helped you understand.
For sure - bummer you had to throw the set away though
Really like this! SO MUCH more roleplaying and true to gaming, without starting superheroes! Modern versions do not, without serious tweaking/houseruling, do this as their base system anymore. Thnx
Thanks! This is for sure my favorite way to play.
I am new to your channel and really like it. I have been playing D&D since 83 so obviously I love all the old school content. Keep up the great work.
Welcome aboard 😊
Enjoyed listening. One con about waiting to describe the room until after combat: the thief can’t swing from the chandelier to get a bonus on the hit roll if you never say there’s a chandelier before the monsters are dead
Indeed - but what a thief character can (and should do) is ASK the DM if there is something that can hide behind/swing from etc
I saw this for the first time shortly after it was released. To this day, it's still among my all-time favorite D&D advice videos.
Thanks 😊
Lovin’ it! It’s cool to hear your insights on ODnD, because you are someone who grew up learning to play it. You have a true understanding which comes from a purely original experience, which I think would be impossible to replicate today. Thank you for sharing! It would be first hand knowledge forever lost. Thank you!
Thanks! That is very kind of you to say.
I think of the caller as the spokesperson of the players. They sum up what their routine approach is going to be and where they are on the map. Any player can interject at any time, but the vast majority of the time they have this discussion between them.
Yup, even when I play in games the caller is not a thing, this is usually what happens
These are great videos. I too started with the Basic set. Your content is very helpful, and such a nostalgic trip.
Thank You!
Awesome video. I just happened onto your this and subbed on the basis of your presentation and insightful comments. B/X is a system I am very familiar with yet you add a fresh perspective on this example of play. Thank you! I look forward to catching up with your other vids!
Thank you for your kind words, I appreciate it.
Great guide and conversation on old school exploration . So many good things in just that example!
Thank You!
Thank you for the read through. I’ve greatly enjoyed it and will be re-reading these rules.
I’ve forgotten when you published this, but I’d like to hear your read through and commentary continue.
Thank you.
Excellent, I will be continuing, I’m enjoying the process as well.
"IDK if I am much more maturer than when I was nine." - Very relatable! 😆
Yup 😊
Great read through and explanation of old school feel and style.
Thank You!
I've been DMing OSE for a year now and because it's inspired by BX and I've never played it i have to say some things have been quite a challenge to interprate and adapt into my games, for example I find very ambigous the fact that PCs can search areas in dungeons in a 10x10 feet Square (very precise) whilest not haveing a precise map layed down in front of the players who have to map out everything in a very aproximate way and the movement being so precise (you move 20 feet per turn if you're heavy) to best keep track of time without moving on a precise map layout. This video really helped me to get an insight of what old school dungeon delving was and it's supposed to be and I have to say I'm all for it. Much more narrative and less mechanics heavy. Thanks for the video and insight on such a beautiful system.
Awesome
Really enjoying the channel, Daniel. Keep up the good work.
Thank You!
Wow...Good points and break down of tiny nuances that are very important and accomplished in design and effect by design. Excellently well done.
Thanks!
This was one of the most helpful videos I have seen. Thank you!! I DM 5e, but have been looking into OSR, but this style of narration is interesting.
Thank You!
Another great video. I wish you would run a Keep on the Borderlands game, there isn't a good or complete presentation on the web.
It’s funny you said that, after I recorded this I was flipping through Keep - I’ve actually never run or played through it completely
Pleeeease!
You know you gotta...
The caller was like “Final Answer” in who wants to be a millionaire. Instead of the DM having to listen to each player think through what they want to do, the caller requires everyone to coordinate actions and present the final decisions in one organized description. I heard Gygax talk about it somewhere. It came out of his wargame background in the 60’s when they were serious and formal, as opposed to the laid back approach most groups take in D&D.
Indeed
I would buy merch if you had some. Loving these videos. I like to read along in my old school books. Born in 82' and cut my teeth in 1e, stuck with 2e until 5e. These videos are so nostalgic for me.
Awesome, i probably played more 1e than any other game as a kid. Well, maybe Top Secret was close
Thank you for this video! I've got Old School Essentials coming in the mail and this is helping me prepare. I'm going to check out the other Moldvay videos you have too.
Awesome
Just hearing those CHARACTER NAMES brings me back to 1981. I must have read this book 100 times.
Me too 😊
I started with 3.5 back in 2006 before switching to Pathfinder 1e and sticking with it. I just discovered videos like this only recently; much of the structure of basic dungeon crawling is easily retrofitted. My group has absolutely loved this style of play. They actively look for them now; big improvement from when they felt dungeons were inflicted on them.
Awesome, 3.5 looks so interesting to me, eventually I’ll have to dip my toes in.
@@BanditsKeep It exists at the crossroads between eras lol. Would definitely like to hear the opinion of a veteran DM, as a career DM myself!
I finished all of Matt colevilles and dungeoncraft videos (plus patreons) so I’m looking for my next fix! Going from Matt’s old school take on new school, to professor dungeon masters home brewed retro style, I have been following the breadcrumbs back to the source. I like your channel about ODnD the most out of others I’ve tried so far!
Thanks! Those are both awesome channels.
Sometimes the PCs have a really good plan to force doors. They can bring a reinforced (or improvised) battering ram with them and now four people are swinging a piece of metal into the
Reactions can sometimes get interrupted because the PCs act. If they are breaking down the door and charging in with weapons out, they will get an appropriate reaction. Or the result of the reaction roll will be limited, like the goblins reach for their weapons and form up but aren't going to make the first move.
For sure
This video is gold! I've always wanted to DM D&D B/X to my players, but not knowing how people actually played it back then I fell kinda lost. Thanks for the help!
Awesome, let me know how your group does!
Our English teacher in high school brought in the pink basic boxed set. It got passed around the class. My classmates started whispering and by the time the box got to me, everyone is looking at me like, "Steve.. you gonna be the DM?" 😂 they already knew bc I was always a Tolkien fan.
Was the 1st case of "railroading" that I can recall. 😂😂
Ha ha, awesome
Neat sounding stuff.
I'm trying to make my own damn dnd and I look at alot of stuff like this.
Subbed.
Cool! Welcome
Production note: I love the opening shot of Dispater looming over us menacingly. Very old-school evocative.
Thanks
Thanks for this. You're a gem.
Thank You!
So one of the things you mentioned a few times was the idea of the DM rolling for checks as a way to maintain secrecy. I get that but I also find, as all of us know, players want to roll dice. So a way I get around this issue is by having the players roll dice, but in my head I have the number they must roll. For example, if they have to roll a 1-6 on something, I can choose in my head a number (let's say 5). It is still the same odds of rolling a 1. It is still a single digit out of 6. If they are skilled and they get a 2-6 on something, I can choose a range (1-2,3-4,5-6) etc. They don't know the range, but they get to roll. They still don't know if they truly succeeded or not. It involves trust with the DM and players, but if you are playing with friends it's never an issue.
This is actually a technique I use as well! 😊
I would like to see you continue going through this book.
I never heard that you need to learn D&D from someone else. I got into D&D after my dad bought me TSR’s Dungeons & Dragons black box starter kit. I had gotten really into the Fighting Fantasy game books, which the internet has led me to believe is something you didn’t have in the US. They were from the UK and ubiquitous at book shops here in Canada. Reading through the rules, my friend and I just figured it out. No mentor, no internet, just the rules and the best common sense 12 year olds muster.
EDIT: Correcting autocowreck
Very cool! I’m discovering Fighting Fantasy and it seems like an intriguing concept - like a much cooler chose your own adventure book.
We had Fighting Fantasy books available in the US back then, but I don't think it was as widespread as something like the Lone Wolf series.
I'd also recommend checking out the Advanced Fighting Fantasy Deluxe RPG for another simple alternative to BX/BECMI with a good amount of available content (on DTRPG). Especially good for one-on-one or low player counts.
Glad to find someone else that has a huge hard-on for B/X D&D. Of course, you probably actually PLAYED it when it was a current version of the game, but hey, still shows that it's a damn good game.
I did indeed play! It was my first D&D game
Love the shirt! That's amazing
Thank You!
Thanks for the video.
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
great breakdown
Thank You!
Learning from reading? Intriguing :)
😁
I started with Ad&D, but played Moldvay Cook as well as every edition since, except 4 and 5
cool
That’s crazy how quick the thief died
Adventuring is dangerous RIP Black Dougal
Side note: The Black Dougal has shown up in almost every campaign I have run since 1988 when I first saw this example in the book. He is always a foppish swashbuckler type that yells his own name as he enters any scene.
Excellent
Hey I have that old book as well- mine was a purplish color, not red like yours. We're from the same era. I still go by the old rules.
Awesome
That Red book is the Moldvay Basic set of Dungeons and Dragons. One of the earliest Dungeons and Dragons rulebooks.
Yes! 1981 it was published
@@BanditsKeep Didn't see the punch-holes the first time watching. My Moldvay Basic and Expert are treasures. Related, How far up BECMI does OSE go?
@vaughngifford7192 OSE is faithful to 1981 Basic/Expert. So only up to level 14 for humans. There's no Weapon Mastery or Tournament rules or anything like that.
However, OSE has two versions: Classic Fantasy (the restatement of '81 D&D) and Advanced Fantasy. Advanced is still the same '81 Basic/Expert content, but with various Advanced D&D (1e) concepts bolted onto the '81 rules.
I want one of those Shirts man! hahah Thats Kieer!
😊
A combat takes a turn and searching a very small square also takes a turn. A torch burns for what, 12 turns, a couple of hours. Sometimes there are many secret doors, in random places and finding it is only 1 in 6 chance. Sometimes it seems to me that the timing is weirdly balanced. I change my times slightly. What do you think about time in old school?
I think the turn mechanic is just a simple way to work the game, when you look at it from a story or role play angle it doesn’t make much sense in some circumstance. What I typically do is have the PCs roll 1 time for a room and assume they are checking the entire space unless they say otherwise. This keeps it Simple and I just throw a few Random monster rolls in and call it done. I don’t go through each section of the wall etc as I feel that would be tedious.
Also intend to use more “concealed” doors vs true secret doors and drop hints so the PCs look in the right spot and if they do I don’t roll at all.
O M G I HAVE to have that shirt. How can it be soo good???
Ha ha, yeah I like it a lot
The caller was the person you ALL told what you were gonna do, that one person communicated with the DM (as 5 people talking at once sucks for the DM and always causes confusion) and EVERYONE but the DM announced to the caller what they were gonna do BEFORE the init was rolled every time, the caller told the DM and the init was rolled and segments counted that folks could act in (I think B/X did away with the segment counting... hence the huge confusion about time in combat)... that's why there's a caller... just saying =P
Callers are definitely useful
subscribed
Thanks
A caller was also important to stop 3-5 other dudes all screaming out what they were doing, all at the same time .
Indeed
A caller was more prevalent in the days when there were likely 5-19 other 'dudes' all playing at the same table. They typical 4-player character parties of today, along with individual initiative in combat, generally won't require one as much.
Hey, have you got a discord or patreon or anything?
I love the content, and its helping me decide to use OSE.
I do not currently have those. Thanks for the kind words.
Cool t shirt man
Thanks 🙏🏻
...and we have another difference between this and the BECMI rules I started with. Most poisons in BECMI were delayed action, "...Will die after 1d4+2 turns" for example. When seeing this left out in retro-clones it seemed like something was missing -- what is the point of spells like neutralize poisons or antidote potions if everyone dies instantly after all?!
It’s funny you would bring that up, I was just reading the neutralize poison spell in original dungeons and dragons and it seems to say that you don’t cast it on a person that’s been poisoned but rather on some thing that has poison on it. So maybe you see the poison needle in the lock and cast it there? I do agree it’s a bit strange.
@@BanditsKeep I just looked it up, and had forgotten it did that, and I also see it could resurrect someone killed by poison (as least in the Rules Cyclopedia). I'd forgotten all that. I do remember delayed death from poison in monster descriptions, though, so that is how we ended up using it.
Ive been trying to wrap my head around BX for a few days.
I want to run Keep on the Borderlands but I just dont understand how exploration works still. The rules are so vague.
1 in 6 chance of finding a trap or secret door if you search in the right place just sounds ridiculous.
Why cant they at least try multiple rounds until they get it?
Can other characters search the same place?
Will I have a situation where 6 characters and 4 retainers all search for a hidden door because thats the only way to get this stuff done...having a lot of characters?
Do they get a save to avoid the traps when they set them of?
What if they describe exactly what they are doing like searching for a lever in a bookcase and thats exactly what the mechanism is? Still 1 in 6 chance?
The Thief is also very confusing as its not very well explained but I think I do understand it now.
All the while everybody says BX is so simple and easy to learn..its really not.
Roll under, roll over, roll d20, roll 1d6, roll 2d6, roll percentile. Use charts. Vague rules. Its quite weird to be honest.
But I do feel that there is something there other versions dont bring to the table and Im afraid of ruining that if I houserule too much.
Are there any great examples of play? I feel like the only way to learn this is to watch it a lot.
The best way to understand it is to try and play. Follow the rules and you will see it works perfectly. To answer the one question though - fiction is first. If a character is doing something that should work it will.
Love your t shirt
Where did you find it
D and d first gen 4 life
I bought it years ago, somewhere online, sorry I can't remember where.
When is Steven going to be on the show? We want to hear what really went down.
Ha ha that would be fun
In that link you provided, it claims to be the magenta set but apparently it only takes you to level 3 so it's not the magenta set. Do you happen to have a link for the full set, not just the basic book?
The magenta set takes you to level 3 - the expert takes you from 4-14 😊
@@ZZ-bt2jr the red set is a re-write of the this one - that series often referred to as BECMI vs BX which is what I’m using - they are compatible
Choose a wall. Left or right. Move
Just move cautiously
I was a mapper...they don't have mappers anymore?
Depends on the campaign, I’ve used mappers in my games quite often usually in a more “mega dungeon“ type thing where it would be over multiple sessions that the players would be investigating a.k.a. looting A dungeon
@@BanditsKeep you ever add new players or do you stick with 1 group?
@@kearnsguitars2236 I’m currently running 3 campaigns so typically playing with the same people - when I go through “one shot” phases I tend to meet new people and add them to my circle - you can never have enough gamer friends!
@@DanielNortonPhotographer If you ever find yourself looking for another person Id be interested
Who is the artist of the charcoal at the beginning of the video?
Ian Baggley - they created a bunch of art for ASSH and this one for me
@@BanditsKeep I thought it was Ian. He's great
@@dbretton I agree! When I needed art he was my first choice.
Disagree with not describing the room during combat; except when the players are surprised. I think that's an important differentiator about surprise. Rounds are a full minute long and the players have time enough to coordinate actions, so while it might take me a few minutes to describe the room to the players, that's something their characters could take stock of in seconds. Therefore, I rule that the players get anything that doesn't require a round action-- i.e. lighting; at least rough size information; and things that might prove perilous or useful like columns or doorways.
Round are a minute long in some games - 10 seconds in BX, the game I’m running.
Fair enough about ten second rounds- but the point still stands. A dungeon room can be every bit as deadly as the combatants, what with pits and broken stairs and enemy vantage points, so it doesn’t make sense that the characters would disregard this very real element of danger- especially back line PCs like magic users.
Do you mean having the Fighter or Half Orc hurl/roll the gnome or halfling down the hallway to find/set off traps is not considered acceptable behavior by today's players.😜😁
I'm joking, but with the abscence of the 6'-10' pole from newer editions equipment lists, it is a viable option for finding traps and hazards in relative safety...except for the gnome or halfling of course.😉
No 10’ Pole? What edition?
Cha'alt: Fuchsia Malaise!
Hey Daniel, I didn’t know where to best comment but I heard on your podcast about you wondering if politics should be injected into your content. I have no problem with people wishing happy pride month or supporting charities for causes, but just like Jason’s podcast started to go off the rails when hotly debated politics came up, I think it’s best to keep our escapism fairly politic free. I’ve had so many people that I love their work but had to stop listening or watching because the kept going deeply political. It’s uncomfortable just like it would be at thanksgiving dinner. I support everyone’s right to have a choice and a voice but my preference is that if you want to be political then make a politics channel and separate the two. It’s in our faces almost daily with everyone and everything. Twitter is a cesspool from all angles of extreme ideology about ttrpgs. I find it kind of nutty what social media has enabled as far as hateful, dismissive, arguments. I love the positivity that you and this “crowd” of gaming folks bring. I can separate the art from the artist, but CZcams and podcasts don’t really allow for that much if heavy politics are constantly injected into the shows. I know sometimes it’s impossible, but that’s why I prefer people try. Just my two cents. Thanks!
I can definitely see that point of view. Thanks!