Illusionists used to be (arguably) a very OP class to play. It took an experienced player to wield Illusion magics, but you could wreak a lot of havoc! Very fun!
5e - treasure doesn't matter, supplies don't matter, darkness doesn't matter, encumbrance doesn't matter, mapping doesn't matter, death doesn't matter - so what is the point? I genuinely don't get the appeal of 5e.
I've answered this one before, I think, so I won't go into more here. :D But it's got that power fantasy, low-stakes combat game appeal for a more casual type of narrative focused player.
I agree with you in terms of my personal preferences, but the appeal is that 5e is basically fantasy marvel superheroes. It’s about accessibility, story and having legendary hero characters.
See I’m a little the opposite, I like some of the OSR ideas, but I’m in the hobby first and foremost for narratives. The “life is cheap” mentality the old school style of play is something I struggle with.
@@wanderdragon1075It’s simple enough to tweak to make that work. There are any number of ‘plug in rules’ that lower the lethality. I’ve run tons of campaigns over the years that are highly narrative focused on the systems. If anything, the danger drives the tension, ups the stakes, and makes the party a lot more cautious. Which all adds to the narrative. Life isn’t cheap in OSR so much as it’s more dangerous so it drives a narratively more tense, cautious style of play. Or at least, that’s been my experience. Depends on how you run it I think
Awesome video! I've been running OSE with my four older kids for a good while now. We love it! They're learning all about old school play and mentality. Soon we'll be switching over to Dragonslayer.
I bought these, what makes it good is that it’s an exact d&d b/x clone, with added classes and very few advanced rules, they fit in two pages. I bought all the little books but looking back I wish I bought just the two advanced fantasy tomes.
Still watching, but great vid so far! I wanted to bring my opinion on Saves to the comments haha, and why imo the old ways are superior to the new. Simply, the saves are not tied to stats and instead to experience and class. This makes a character with poorly rolled ability scores way more survivable and less of a ‘feels bad’ moment during play. Saves tied to ability scores can mean your character is screwed from the start if they have a bad wisdom for instance, they’ll always fail mental saves way more frequently. In the old method, doesn’t affect them negatively to have a 5 wisdom in this manner.
Yeah. I really like how ability scores aren't as vitally important as in 5e for example. I also drop the xp bonus. This makes it more fun to roll abilities. They're important but not all-important. I've also learned to appreciate the subsystems with different dice roll mechanics though I do appreciate how Dolmenwood unifies "skills" such as listening, searching, hunting /foraging, surprise as well as thief skills somewhat into a d6 mechanic while keeping d20 roll under saves self roll over to hit.
I honestly dont know how you are able to keep doing this stuff so fast damn. Also all of these old school systems and osr stuff can so easily cross over with little to no changes. I know people who run OSE and TSR stuff with Shadowdark and other OSR/NSR systems. We all have such acess to amazing stuff just pick the system you enjoy the most. Great video bud, great break down for things. AS it can be alot to take in.
Love OSE. Prefer it over Shadowdark (which I fully backed). Coming back to TTRPGs after 20+ year hiatus, only haveing played 2e, I'm really getting into original Moldvay/Cook-Marsh BX manuals in combo with OSE, all of which are new to me even though they are old. I have Shadowdark in case I run into opportunity to play it, but think I'd rather play DCC outside of OSE if given a choice. Playing in a modified B1/B2 campaign for first time ever, using RAW B/X (OSE classic) and having a blast mapping in Miro.
Interesting to hear why you prefer the 'side initiative'. So, don't use the spell declaration before the initiative... I found that it had a small layer of risk/reward (do we attack the caster? let's have 2 PC attacking that caster to avoid him casting sleep!). I agree that OSE made the game procedures clear. I didn't realize that until you explain it. The combat sequence is quite simple and fast. It's not a turn-based combat game like 5e. 5e offer more strategy with grid and terrain +-, but it bugs down the game and you are lucky if you have more then 3 fights in an evening!
An healing Mechanic that makes lots of sense is the one from Pendragon. You write down each hits individually. When you sleep you regain 1 HP per HIT. So a hit of 10 would take 10 days to heal.. but 10 hits of 1 (lots of scratches) would be healed the next day.
i like to roll to check for an encounter (or more, if necessary) when the players want to end the session and have the PCs return to town. if an encounter is rolled then the next session starts with that encounter. if an encounter isn't rolled then the party makes it safely back to town. this might not work in a west marches structure, though, where there are lots of people playing in the same world. idk, maybe there's a way to make it work haha.
I have to take a break to browse and admire my OSE boxed sets 😁 Encumbrance is a system I put a lot of effort into when creating my own OSR game. In retrospect it came out too complex still even though it's a version of slot based. I wanted a certain granularity and verisimilitude when it came to bulky items for example. Now I'm quite happy with the system I modified from the Dolmenwood slot based encumbrance which is pretty great already. It's worth tinkering with because it's so essential.
Oh there is only one major critical point I have about OSE is that the two lines of rules they have how they are done is confusing to alot of people, I have seen that question alot, I think it also has popped up on their website or kickstarters in the past and they done charts that are a bit all over the place. But that is the only real thing I think it is goign against it. Great system and like all things can drop or change something you dont like to your own thing or from a slightly different system.
It's a good SRD table rules reference but the original B/X is a superior product as a game. Especially its explanations and examples of the game play loops. To me, B/X was the TSR system least in need of a rewrite. Though, having all the rules in one volume is a plus.
My general view on things like supplies is that it should only matter if it's important to the plot/adventure (e.g. you're trekking through the desert or lost in the Underdark), otherwise it's just superfluous stuff because it just imposes an artificial "you need to leave and come back later" approach which often isn't fun or enjoyable. Same with Encumbrance: It should be a generic rule to prevent stupid things like carrying a giant gold statue or chest with 100k gold on your back, not "My inventory is full" kind of stuff.
I can definitely see that for a certain style of play! Like I said in the video, I think having a consistent system makes a lot of sense in a game where part of the fun comes from decision making about resources and loot. Like Darkest Dungeon! :)
Looking foward to this deep dive. I also love OSE and I think it's the golden standard, but I haven't played it that much either. Curious, whats your system of choice? Is it Shadowdark?
I'm very interested in your "HP + flesh (CON)" system you describe around 23:00. That sounds like a *huge* change to Shadowdark's deadliness. For an average 1st level wizard/thief, this means instead of 2.5 points of damage until death it becomes 13 points of damage until death (average HP + average CON). Did I misunderstand that or is that intentional or do you scale up monsters to equalize that? Do you have a video about this mod? Would be very interesting because I think Shadowdark could benefit from some kind of long-term wounds system.
It definitely decreases the initial deadliness, but it also presents a different sort of deadliness after awhile because the damage is progressive - you get to 0 HP, take 3 more damage, and then your CON is 7 (assuming a start at 10). Then you get into another fight, go to 0 and take 3 more. Your CON is now 4. So your max "HP" decreases as an adventure progresses, presenting another sort of "clock" for the party to use when deciding whether to push on or retreat and rest. I do death differently as well - when you go to 0 HP you make a Hard CON test or go unconscious. If you succeed, you can keep fighting at 0 HP. But if you take damage again you have to make the CON test each time. If you're unconscious at 0 you lose a CON each round until you're healed. And finally at 0 CON you're just dead outright.
@@RedMageGM That's a really nice mod. Using CON as a death timer makes the difference in deadliness smaller than I thought. It also makes the death timing less arbitrary and adds some longer term resource management problem for wounded characters. I'm considering to use this, if my players are OK with such changes after the campaign start (and the first deaths).
@RedMageGM By 5E, pilled, I meant you prefer the new form of TTRPG. Over the old, which isn't inherently good or bad, it just is. Having watched the rest of the video, I do think you're still 5e pilled but see the value and how things used to be done.
Has any done team initiative but reverse the action declaration. That is loser side declares their actions then the winner side declares theirs then you resolve the actions. Like Classic Battletech does kind of.
Yeah, so in CBT, which is a wargame/boardgame so not apples to apples exactly, but the idea is that all declared actions must take place, so all your attacks will be resolved regardless if your mech is destroyed during that phase, so going second as the winner means you can react to what the other side id doing. Very important. In the context of RPG something like losers declares first but winners resolve their actions first might work better. I vaguely remember an old RPG that did that
@@RedMageGM she did a good job at compiling good rules from the best systems. She even took from my favorite writer’s theRPGpundit’s Lion & Dragon rules. It has some DCC, a lot of b/x, some 5e. Very good random generators. If I didn’t have so many rule books I’d buy it. I think the 1 hour real time torches is definitely hers but I can’t remember if also the carousing for xp? I think that is taken from another source. Anyway, it’s a great edit.
@@destroso Carousing for XP is from Jeff's Game Blog one of the oldest OSR blogs (predating the term OSR by many years.) He originated a lot of other ideas that are popular in old school gaming. jrients.blogspot.com/2008/12/party-like-its-999.html
Illusionists used to be (arguably) a very OP class to play. It took an experienced player to wield Illusion magics, but you could wreak a lot of havoc! Very fun!
I've always wanted to play one, but haven't ever really had a chance to play a good one.
Thank you for the deep dives of these. Some of my favorite videos you have made 👊
Thanks man!! They're a lot of fun for me to do!
5e - treasure doesn't matter, supplies don't matter, darkness doesn't matter, encumbrance doesn't matter, mapping doesn't matter, death doesn't matter - so what is the point? I genuinely don't get the appeal of 5e.
I've answered this one before, I think, so I won't go into more here. :D But it's got that power fantasy, low-stakes combat game appeal for a more casual type of narrative focused player.
I agree with you in terms of my personal preferences, but the appeal is that 5e is basically fantasy marvel superheroes. It’s about accessibility, story and having legendary hero characters.
See I’m a little the opposite, I like some of the OSR ideas, but I’m in the hobby first and foremost for narratives. The “life is cheap” mentality the old school style of play is something I struggle with.
@@wanderdragon1075It’s simple enough to tweak to make that work. There are any number of ‘plug in rules’ that lower the lethality. I’ve run tons of campaigns over the years that are highly narrative focused on the systems. If anything, the danger drives the tension, ups the stakes, and makes the party a lot more cautious. Which all adds to the narrative. Life isn’t cheap in OSR so much as it’s more dangerous so it drives a narratively more tense, cautious style of play. Or at least, that’s been my experience. Depends on how you run it I think
@@RedMageGMI feel like 5e players would have a lot more fun with 4e or 13th Age
Awesome video! I've been running OSE with my four older kids for a good while now. We love it! They're learning all about old school play and mentality. Soon we'll be switching over to Dragonslayer.
That sounds amazing! I still haven't had a chance to play Dragonslayer. :/ Hopefully soon!
I bought these, what makes it good is that it’s an exact d&d b/x clone, with added classes and very few advanced rules, they fit in two pages. I bought all the little books but looking back I wish I bought just the two advanced fantasy tomes.
Deep dive mentioned. Come on lads, Rock and Stone!
The 1 lvl wizard in my game has sleep and it’s so powerful, it’s saved the party multiple times
Oh yeah - sleep is insane!
@@RedMageGM Returning to B/X 2y ago, I wonder how it was possible that monster don't have a saving throw against sleep... it's only for monsters
Still watching, but great vid so far!
I wanted to bring my opinion on Saves to the comments haha, and why imo the old ways are superior to the new.
Simply, the saves are not tied to stats and instead to experience and class. This makes a character with poorly rolled ability scores way more survivable and less of a ‘feels bad’ moment during play. Saves tied to ability scores can mean your character is screwed from the start if they have a bad wisdom for instance, they’ll always fail mental saves way more frequently. In the old method, doesn’t affect them negatively to have a 5 wisdom in this manner.
That makes a lot of sense to me! I honestly had never considered that way of thinking about it!
Yeah. I really like how ability scores aren't as vitally important as in 5e for example. I also drop the xp bonus. This makes it more fun to roll abilities. They're important but not all-important.
I've also learned to appreciate the subsystems with different dice roll mechanics though I do appreciate how Dolmenwood unifies "skills" such as listening, searching, hunting /foraging, surprise as well as thief skills somewhat into a d6 mechanic while keeping d20 roll under saves self roll over to hit.
I honestly dont know how you are able to keep doing this stuff so fast damn. Also all of these old school systems and osr stuff can so easily cross over with little to no changes. I know people who run OSE and TSR stuff with Shadowdark and other OSR/NSR systems. We all have such acess to amazing stuff just pick the system you enjoy the most. Great video bud, great break down for things. AS it can be alot to take in.
Really enjoyed this video and I learned allot about the differences from OSR style play and the "typical 5e" style. Thanks! Subscribed!
Awesome!! Glad it was helpful!
Love OSE. Prefer it over Shadowdark (which I fully backed). Coming back to TTRPGs after 20+ year hiatus, only haveing played 2e, I'm really getting into original Moldvay/Cook-Marsh BX manuals in combo with OSE, all of which are new to me even though they are old. I have Shadowdark in case I run into opportunity to play it, but think I'd rather play DCC outside of OSE if given a choice. Playing in a modified B1/B2 campaign for first time ever, using RAW B/X (OSE classic) and having a blast mapping in Miro.
Interesting to hear why you prefer the 'side initiative'. So, don't use the spell declaration before the initiative... I found that it had a small layer of risk/reward (do we attack the caster? let's have 2 PC attacking that caster to avoid him casting sleep!).
I agree that OSE made the game procedures clear. I didn't realize that until you explain it. The combat sequence is quite simple and fast. It's not a turn-based combat game like 5e. 5e offer more strategy with grid and terrain +-, but it bugs down the game and you are lucky if you have more then 3 fights in an evening!
love your videos, man! i listen to them otw into work. (90-min commute.)
That's great to hear!! Glad to help the commute! Can't wait for Volume 2, btw! ;)
Love these deep dive videos! thank you so much! :)
Id love the chance at a good ose game, its so damn comfy.
An healing Mechanic that makes lots of sense is the one from Pendragon. You write down each hits individually. When you sleep you regain 1 HP per HIT. So a hit of 10 would take 10 days to heal.. but 10 hits of 1 (lots of scratches) would be healed the next day.
Interesting! I should try that sometime!
i like to roll to check for an encounter (or more, if necessary) when the players want to end the session and have the PCs return to town. if an encounter is rolled then the next session starts with that encounter. if an encounter isn't rolled then the party makes it safely back to town. this might not work in a west marches structure, though, where there are lots of people playing in the same world. idk, maybe there's a way to make it work haha.
That's honestly a great idea!! I should start doing that in my non-west marches games!
I have to take a break to browse and admire my OSE boxed sets 😁 Encumbrance is a system I put a lot of effort into when creating my own OSR game. In retrospect it came out too complex still even though it's a version of slot based. I wanted a certain granularity and verisimilitude when it came to bulky items for example. Now I'm quite happy with the system I modified from the Dolmenwood slot based encumbrance which is pretty great already. It's worth tinkering with because it's so essential.
Totally agree with that sentiment - it's worth tinkering with because it's so essential! :)
@@RedMageGM 😁
Oh there is only one major critical point I have about OSE is that the two lines of rules they have how they are done is confusing to alot of people, I have seen that question alot, I think it also has popped up on their website or kickstarters in the past and they done charts that are a bit all over the place. But that is the only real thing I think it is goign against it. Great system and like all things can drop or change something you dont like to your own thing or from a slightly different system.
It's a good SRD table rules reference but the original B/X is a superior product as a game. Especially its explanations and examples of the game play loops. To me, B/X was the TSR system least in need of a rewrite. Though, having all the rules in one volume is a plus.
I play ose with my wife and kid and they love it. Its so simple and they love how their palms get sweaty when i say give me a saving throw vs death.
That sounds awesome :)
My general view on things like supplies is that it should only matter if it's important to the plot/adventure (e.g. you're trekking through the desert or lost in the Underdark), otherwise it's just superfluous stuff because it just imposes an artificial "you need to leave and come back later" approach which often isn't fun or enjoyable. Same with Encumbrance: It should be a generic rule to prevent stupid things like carrying a giant gold statue or chest with 100k gold on your back, not "My inventory is full" kind of stuff.
I can definitely see that for a certain style of play! Like I said in the video, I think having a consistent system makes a lot of sense in a game where part of the fun comes from decision making about resources and loot. Like Darkest Dungeon! :)
Looking foward to this deep dive.
I also love OSE and I think it's the golden standard, but I haven't played it that much either.
Curious, whats your system of choice? Is it Shadowdark?
Yeah, I play Shadowdark mostly these days.
I'm very interested in your "HP + flesh (CON)" system you describe around 23:00. That sounds like a *huge* change to Shadowdark's deadliness. For an average 1st level wizard/thief, this means instead of 2.5 points of damage until death it becomes 13 points of damage until death (average HP + average CON). Did I misunderstand that or is that intentional or do you scale up monsters to equalize that? Do you have a video about this mod? Would be very interesting because I think Shadowdark could benefit from some kind of long-term wounds system.
It definitely decreases the initial deadliness, but it also presents a different sort of deadliness after awhile because the damage is progressive - you get to 0 HP, take 3 more damage, and then your CON is 7 (assuming a start at 10). Then you get into another fight, go to 0 and take 3 more. Your CON is now 4. So your max "HP" decreases as an adventure progresses, presenting another sort of "clock" for the party to use when deciding whether to push on or retreat and rest.
I do death differently as well - when you go to 0 HP you make a Hard CON test or go unconscious. If you succeed, you can keep fighting at 0 HP. But if you take damage again you have to make the CON test each time. If you're unconscious at 0 you lose a CON each round until you're healed. And finally at 0 CON you're just dead outright.
@@RedMageGM That's a really nice mod. Using CON as a death timer makes the difference in deadliness smaller than I thought. It also makes the death timing less arbitrary and adds some longer term resource management problem for wounded characters. I'm considering to use this, if my players are OK with such changes after the campaign start (and the first deaths).
I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot. My players have really taken to it (with a short adjustment period!)
The opening makes it sound like you're to 5e pilled
haha, well I don't really think of myself that way...could be wrong though? I'd be curious to see what you'd say after watching the whole thing.
@RedMageGM By 5E, pilled, I meant you prefer the new form of TTRPG. Over the old, which isn't inherently good or bad, it just is. Having watched the rest of the video, I do think you're still 5e pilled but see the value and how things used to be done.
Oh I see - gotcha!
Has any done team initiative but reverse the action declaration.
That is loser side declares their actions then the winner side declares theirs then you resolve the actions.
Like Classic Battletech does kind of.
That's really interesting! I haven't seen that method before. I'd definitely be down to try it!
Yeah, so in CBT, which is a wargame/boardgame so not apples to apples exactly, but the idea is that all declared actions must take place, so all your attacks will be resolved regardless if your mech is destroyed during that phase, so going second as the winner means you can react to what the other side id doing. Very important.
In the context of RPG something like losers declares first but winners resolve their actions first might work better.
I vaguely remember an old RPG that did that
What edition do you play?
I play Shadowdark these days, but I started with 3.0 D&D (well, Middle Earth Roleplaying, but 3.0 is the first D&D I played).
@@RedMageGM she did a good job at compiling good rules from the best systems. She even took from my favorite writer’s theRPGpundit’s Lion & Dragon rules. It has some DCC, a lot of b/x, some 5e. Very good random generators. If I didn’t have so many rule books I’d buy it. I think the 1 hour real time torches is definitely hers but I can’t remember if also the carousing for xp? I think that is taken from another source. Anyway, it’s a great edit.
@@destroso Carousing for XP is from Jeff's Game Blog one of the oldest OSR blogs (predating the term OSR by many years.) He originated a lot of other ideas that are popular in old school gaming.
jrients.blogspot.com/2008/12/party-like-its-999.html