Do Expensive AV Receivers Sound Better than Cheap Ones?
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- čas přidán 22. 12. 2019
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We discuss whether or not higher priced AV receivers can sound better than inexpensive ones. Many factors determine sound quality such as the ability for the receiver's amp section to supply distortion free wattage to your speakers. What do you get with the more expensive receivers that can lead to better sound quality? Watch this video to find out.
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#receivers #audiophile #amplifiers - Věda a technologie
You sir have guts to say the answer so soon. I still watched the rest of the video out of respect and interest.
same!
Same
.....and because it was interesting
Answers the question in the first minute of the video.....You truly are a force for good in this world.
Will dropping a cannon ball on your foot hurt more than a tennis ? you pay 900 for a nasty or 5/6k lol its like I am rich look peasants look!
He had me at the "subscribe" bit. But he redeemed himself!
Yeah. It' s tennis of course. czcams.com/video/WOe32vI5www/video.html
I instinctively expected it to be 2/3 the way in, after a bunch of useless filler. Good stuff, this.
When he transforms into his final form, he shows actual examples to backup his claims.
What I like about Gene is he explains everything as simple as possible with measurements to back up his statements. His goal is to educate every audio and video enthusiast and help us getting the best out of our money. This video is worth watching. Keep it up Gene!
I totally believe the opposite. I believe ppl who are engineeringly qualified would think he is being simple but for the average person he certainly is not. A lot of his videos are filled with such high level jargon that it kind of turns me away from eagerly watching his videos.
@@alwynlovell7616 If you have an interest in knowing about non-voodoo audio, these are the terms you should be looking into to equip yourself with knowledge. I believe anyone can learn the basic models of acoustics and electrics. I understand some people would be completely dis-interested in those subjects, but I think that is such an unfortunate place to be where it all seems like magic.
@@alwynlovell7616 Well then, that demonstrates to me that you lack the capacity to understand what he's putting down, therefore, you should pick a different hobby so-to-speak, then being an audiophile. Perhaps sewing is more your speed?
I run an install company and have been installing for about 20 years, and while what he says is generally true with regards to measurements, a lot of these perceived differences would only be audible if you are running larger speakers full range, at high volume, especially with transients. If you use the internal crossover to hand off to a powered subwoofer, you are taking such a huge amount of responsibility off the receiver and improving its ability to perform, that you probably won't hear deficiencies in real word situations.
Also if I understood the video right - you will only see audible differences if you are driving 4 ohm speakers with low sensitivity rating at close to reference levels. If I am using a Marantz 6014 for driving 5 Klipsch RP series speakers (very efficient) with two active subwoofers doing the heavy lifting below 80hz then I will see extremely little benefit investing in separates or expensive receivers. I am sure the cost is not justifiable for the marginal improvement unless I have disposable income.
I have a question about the switch he mentions. I have a Yamaha A-s501 which outputs 85w 8ohms. I have 4ohm speakers so I have the switch in the 4ohm position. What exactly is happening when I switch to 4ohm?
licences is the only issue, My PC was SP Div in and out.
Now, you need a trusted channel to replay your torrent movies.
@@danconnor3089 I'm not positive, but I believe you are only keeping it from running too hot when you flip that switch to 4 ohm. I don't think the power output changes with that.
Hey ive never bought a av receiver before and im on a tight budget. $200-$ 300. Is the Pyle pt696bt av receiver any good to setup a decent sounding surround sound system for my hisense roku smart tv? I have 5 cheap speakers and 1 subwoofer. I would like to hear my xbox through it also. I would be using high speed hdmi cable or digital optical cable for hookups. Not sure which is better tho. Will that receiver work to hookup my system? If the Pyle receiver stinks then would you recommend which good av receiver to buy and I'll just save my money.?
Why in the heck the channel only has 146k subscribers is beyond me. Should be in the millions.
Do not get delusional. The component home theaters are tiny niche market nowadays.
The great majority of people buy a soundbar or stay with their TV-speakers. AV receivers are bought only by geeks and freaks. That's partially the reason why their quality has fallen nowadays, which is mentioned in this video.
Because Ihe talks sense.
I got the Sony STR-DH1080 and while it was around $500, it sounds absolutely amazing! So lively and dynamic! I'm sure it isn't that great by a technical standpoint, but my ears love it regardless!
Back in the later part of 2017 I found that I was listening to more music over watching movies. At the time I was using a Denon AVR- 4311CI as a pre-amp with Wyred 4 Sound and Emotiva amps. Prior to the Denon I had a Onkyo TX-NR906 (HDMI board failure resulted in the Denon). My front speakers are Mirage OMD-28's. The Denon did a good job for movies but when listening to music the sound was tinny and dull. One day while at a Best But Magnolia Design Center I had the opportunity to listen to a Arcam AVR-550. Other AVR's in the listening room from Denon, Marantz, Integra, and Pioneer. All the aforementioned AVR's cost over 2k and the only model I remember was the Pioneer SC-LX901 because we have the Pioneer in our living room.
No room correction was applied to any of the AVR's. Switching back and forth between the AVR's while listening to music the wife and I liked the sound of the Arcam over the other's. My wife does not share my interest in the hobby and is very frugal.
The source used was a OPPO 205 and the speakers were B&W 804 D3's. There were other people in the listening room and everyone agreed the Arcam sounded the best and it was the most expensive at $3,200. The Denon came in last place, the wife and I thought the Pioneer SC-LX901 was the second best sounding and the Marantz and Integra were tied in 3rd place.
They had a open box Arcam AVR-550 and I purchased it. There was an issue initially with setting up the room correction (Dirac). Once it was set up the proof was in the sound. The open box AVR-550 was only discounted $200 so I returned it and decided to purchase a new one instead. None were in stock and ETA for a new was over month until it was received. So then I decided to have a look at the Anthem AVM-60. I already had a Wyred 4 Sound ST-1000MKII that I had been using with my Denon and a Emotiva XPA-3. I gave the Anthem AVM-60 a try and while it was nice we felt it was lacking in the 2 channel sound for music when compared to the Arcam.
I then came across a used Arcam AVR-850 for a price of $3,100 and I purchased it. Maybe it is the Dirac room correction but once I starting using the Arcam over the Denon it felt like a blanket had been removed from my speakers. I was initially looking at replacing my speakers (Mirage OMD-28's) but once I incorporated the Arcam into my system the thought of replacing my speakers was no longer needed.
I am using a Oppo 205, Bluesound Vault 2i. along with Tidal for music listening.
Gene Grunt Arcam’s Class G stuff is pretty amazing stuff. 25-50 watts in Class A, which provides a warm, rich, powerful sound.
Not all of us are out buying, or can afford to drop 2 or 3 grand on a stereo receiver, or amplifier. So, what about the differences between, say a Marantz, Harman Kardon, Yamaha, Onkyo, or Denon costing between $400 and $700, by comparison to a Sony, JVC, Pioneer, Kenwood, or Technics costing between $100 and $350? That's what I'm interested in on my budget. I suspect a large majority of listeners are looking at receivers in those price ranges.
Well is someone going to answer this man.... lol I’m interested on a response.
Eric...Amen brother.
This is what I was looking for as well.
Gab A. Any thoughts on the Denon avrs960h? It’s a mid range as far as pay but it is the max I’m willing to pay.
@Gab A not many people need 9.1 or 11.1. I'd be surprised if anybody watching films at home need 11.1!!!!!
Brilliant video. I've owned lots of AV amps, from Denon, Yamaha and Pioneer. I've had flagship amps from all three manufacturers including the Denon AVC-A1SR, Yamaha DSP-AX1, Pioneer SX-LX85 and I've also used budget amps from them. The difference from a listening point of view is 2 fold from my experience, it comes in power in AV soundtracks and refinement in music presentation. On the budget receivers you get impressive AV performance at quiet to normal levels but music in 2 channel mode is weak, on the high amps you get real power in AV soundtracks, room shaking ability and in 2 channel music listening you get level of quality that can match dedicated stereo amps, highly acceptable. Your video does an excellent job of explaining why. Personally I wouldn't recommend people buy a budget amp today, you are much better off if you buy a 2nd hand flagship amp from 10 years ago which are available for similar prices and just using the 2nd HDMI output from your bluray to the amp purely for the audio. You will get vastly better sound quality and most people do not need Atmos processing because its so difficult to install the full array of speakers.
Gene, great to see the high production quality video, it's like a higher def version of audioholic's videos of a few years ago! Unfortunately I'm often strapped for time these days, so these short, sweet, and to the point videos are great in addition to the livestreams. Keep up the great work!
thx, always looking to improve.
First time here. As a computer enthusiast and a novice electronics enthusiast, you’re perhaps the only person who is actually speaking my language!
So excited to explore your channel and reviews in my quest to buy a good receiver!
Your audio reviews are IMO the best. Yes to all the comments you made regarding cheep vs expensive receivers. I use to work at a few hi-fi stores back in the day and definitely have played with and have done critical listening on many types of AV gear. Having good clean proweful amplification and pre out voltage has always been a key thing I would point out to customers.
Personally today my home Theater has a Marantz AV8802 and I have 3 old bit good Adcom amps along with 11 ga wore and 2 SVS PB 16 ultra, so great sound is not a problem.
Keep the straight no nonsense reviews coming. And OMG I'm so over all the crazy hype all the marketing folks use to use on all the crazy expensive speaker wire.
Wow this was perhaps the best explanation on av recievers ever! Great job!
I’m glad you acknowledged the Denon AVR-X8500H at the end of this video simply because I don’t have the room for separates.
And the 8500 does sound freakin amazing! But again, it’s a $4000 AVR! Great video as always Gene!
Thank you!
I've replaced my onkyo 830 with denon 850, night and day difference
@@totalplonker824 so what do you have that doesn’t sound “digital”?
Don’t know wtf you were talking about, but now I’m researching all this stuff . Awesome video
Really enjoy your vlogs. I was curious as to how you'd deem a Denon AVR-4400H and a Denon AVR-3500X in comparison? Thanks again for your reviews and feature-rich vlogs!!
wow fin great video man. Love the no BS explanation. We need more videos like this
That was an excellent presentation. I liked what you said at the end about the receivers from 20+ years ago: "It was just a different time, it was a more civilized time for a different era." Very creatively said.
Yep, that was a classic line.
Plus music back then was better also.
Good video Gene. My first HDMI reciever was a Onkyo which went for 300.00 it didn’t have preouts and the speaker terminals were push down ones. It supported master audio and Dolby true HD it was fine till I upgraded to their 9ch one that had preouts TXNR 5009 .
Very informative. You leave great hints on what to look for to dig a little deeper if we want to.
I’m still learning but I commend you for teaching me what little I understood in your video lol
The microphone choices in these videos are different eras. This was part of the Tribble era 🤣. Great content as always so a huge thank you, Gene
Great info. I would have guessed otherwise (that cost doesn't really matter in mass-market receivers), but the explanation makes sense. I've watched a lot of videos from this channel but this is the video that got me to subscribe. I really like that Gene uses sample prices to put things into perspective too.
Very informative and direct to the point! Thanks for your Vlog.
an interesting purchasing avenue i found was getting a used surround processor, those really goes for cheap on the used market, then get two power amplifiers. i saw some TIBO PA150, those are 2 x 150 watts rms in 8 ohms.
this way you have no problem with pre outs and you can easily upgrade only the power amps in the future. starting with 4 channels is great, all you need for surround sound and most people can't place the center anywhere good anyways.
Listened to many receivers... I don't like when they add any 'color' to the signal, most measure extremely flat. So the difference being described is mostly the power output and that's not an issue for those of us who aren't driving $50k RBH Sound Reference speakers. Good modern speakers aren't hard to drive, especially when you set them up for HT with a 80Hz cutoff for sub, which is powered.
So I don't agree with Gene's conclusion. It REALLY depends on the situations. For most people, it's really not worth spending more. It only matters to people driving inefficient speakers in huge rooms at reference levels.
I agree...
In regards to his comments with the cheap internal DAC's, I've found that you can get around the poor internal DAC with a pre amp with a really good DAC and just run it through the analog pass through on the receiver. I was gifted a Yamaha RX-V367BL when my Marantz SR 7007 had an unfortunate accident involving a toddler and a glass of wine. The DAC on the Yamaha is terrible, flat and shallow sounding. I ended up using a good external DAC and then use the Yamaha to power the 89db sensitive Fluance speakers well beyond what I need in my
My receiver is strictly for surround, even some video soundtracks are better sounding through my audio system, which is connected with home theater bypass. If my current receiver had pre outs it would be perfect..
Dont buy a receiver then. Dont like color. Why are you doing surround sound?
Facepalm. Nevermind buy whatever you think is good.
@@tomcolopy5565 if that was meant to me, I think you misunderstood what I said or I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.
I have the silver AVR-X8500H, absolutely love it. Drives everything I've hooked to it perfectly, never had one problem with it.
better not have a problem, its 4,000... we're talking about cheap receivers here
Really really great video. Informative and to the point 👍🏻😊
Thanks for answering the question first.
Today it is important to have the choice to continue listening. That is why you got my sub.
Thanks.
Hi Gene. Thanks for all the time you spend on these analyses.
Your assumptions, stated frequently, were:
4-ohm speakers
playing full-range
at reference volume.
This might represent your room with esoteric speakers and no budget constraints, but for at least me, with 8-ohm speakers rolling into powered subwoofers, this baseline is irrelevant.
The real-world question is closer to: How much AUDIBLE difference is there at reference level between a $1,000 AVR and a $20,000 stack of separates in a 15x20x8' properly treated home theater with 5.1 8-ohm (rated - given lower-z dips) speakers rolling into properly-placed powered subwoofers of sufficient power to pressurize the room?
No qualms with your build-quality analysis - business is business - and I have neither gear, time, knowledge nor desire to validate your measurements (and I trust you), but your initial listening environment premise might not represent very many people who are more concerned with spending enough to get the best sound they will be able to HEAR vs. spending 20x as much to get the best measurements that they would never be able to pick out in blind listening in their own non-esoterrically-equipped theaters or listening rooms.
Maybe do an analysis like that in the future, with general breakpoints where you believe an audible advantage might be obtained.
Thanks as always!
Agreed!! Perhaps a quick demo switching the mid and high range receivers playing same tracks using same set of speakers in his AV room.. Though the experience won't be real, it would give us a fair idea on top of theoretical explanation.
I think what you are asking is what’s called “Diminishing return”. As price of the gear goes up you do not get same value of performance. A 3500 dollar front end will perform >90% of a 10,000 dollar front end. And in my opinion for a smaller room a cheaper AVR works fine for movies like you mentioned you integrate 8ohm speakers with a subwoofer. Most AVRs you can cut bass off to the speakers so the amp doesn’t need as much power. But it isn’t good for jamming out to music. And I can say from experience that Marantz he mentions is awesome. I was shocked how much better it sounds compared to my pioneer elite.
Appreciate your fair talk
It is valuable if you talk about a list of good mid-range recovers like 90s
2000s and now last ten years
This will help a lot of people out there trying to shop a used amp or reliever
Good Video! I still use the Denon AVP A1HDCI driving Synthesis S715 amp into B&W Nautilus Speakers. I thought about replacing the Denon but can not find anything built as good that sounds as amazing. Your video confirms this. Thanks
Note to self: Anything below $3,000 is shit. Now to explain this to my wife.
Hahaha... Then after 5 minutes of explaining she'll still not understand what you were talking about...
@@blakkboxx9685 my wife is happy with the built in tv speakers. seems to be chronic.
@@tobiassinclair4646 opposite around here. Husband is happy with cheap tv speaker or cheap receiver. Me, the wife, is not happy with that scenario at all. haha.
“I m not gonna make you watch the whole video i m gonna give you the answer upfront.”
Hits like subscribe and posts a comment for this awesome guy.
Still watched the whole video anyway!
I just bought a Marantz NR1711, which by all accounts is a 'budget' model for this brand but it plays phenomenally well in my small living room where output at lower volumes is sufficient . It has preamp outputs which will enable me to hook up an amp later if I need to service a bigger space and drive some bigger speakers.
Great video, thanks for sharing. I really like the detail you go into.
Great explanation Gene. I have a Sr8012 and using a Anthem MCA 325 to drive the LCR does the Marantz pre out have good enough pre out section justify the anthem 325 power? And merry Christmas Day and a happy new year to you all
Finally I’ve been hoping for a video on this!:)
Very informative. Keep up the knowledge sharing. I basically subscribed after watching this video.
merry Christmas gene thanks for your advice i took it 2 yrs ago pre amp out all channels driven thank u
Great content as always, minor criticism for the channel however. You guys really need to invest into some soft light boxes or light umbrellas. Your current light source is super harsh and creates really harsh shadows. Don’t need anything super fancy just two soft boxes and you will be looking a helluva lot better than current setup. Happy Holidays and keep up the great work!
definitely plan on doing this when we move into the new Audioholics Smart home late summer.
It’s Audiholics, not Videoholics. :)
The absolute first thing I thought. This can be done for cheap via Amazon ($30) or extremely cheap DIY ($10). Set one up as key light another as fill and it'll look so much better. Good vid otherwise and great info.
Hey! On this channel we bitch about the sound...
@@markstenerson6851 right! get a better mic!
It is so miniscule in difference. I have owned both and to a trained ear you really need to stress yourself to find a difference. Benchmark tests are a totally different. It is like the "snake oil" cables they try to push on you as the best but cost 10x more.
Plus the reality is, no matter whether you buy (most of us can't spend 10K on a receiver) buy a mid range receiver for 2.5K or $500 receiver, your ear will very quickly get used to it, that new WOW sound just becomes the normal within hours.
I brought a $500 Pioneer after listening to several higher end Pioneers and Marantz and hearing no difference in sound quality that I could hear. The money I saved went into better speakers. Very happy with my purchase.
NorthernUnion13 Yeah and the other consideration we should realise is two fold, firstly, it’s the format of sound processing we are going to mostly be listening to, for example, Bluetooth has become really popular due to its convenience but it’s the lowest quality audio format that we have on offer, this means that the DAC will have some impact but for the most part no matter what system you have, it can only sound to a certain level of quality simply because the Bluetooth format limits the audio information for which the system can produce. The other aspect is one we have little control of, and that’s our own hearing. Our ears and brain can only discern a certain level of sound information and this generally decreases as we age and as we progress through life our external environment can damage our hearing or in my case, about 4 years ago I suddenly fully lost the hearing in my left ear due to freak bone growth closing over that ear canal, it’s not something that can be reversed unfortunately, however I am very fortunate that my right ear has near perfect hearing with slight deterioration at 4000hz which annoyingly makes it difficult for me to understand what people are saying in places that have a noisy background, it also means I can no longer have proper sense of direction based on my hearing though since my original diagnosis, my brain has adapted and my hearing comprehension has improved a fair bit but it’s still nowhere near the directional processing of stereo hearing of two ears. Sadly this also means I can no longer picture the “sound stage” when listening to stereo audio but I am hoping that when I setup my home mid budget cinema speaker setup I will still have some level of directional audio, I just may find it much harder to tell if the sound is coming from left or right speakers however as I am having my new receiver professionally installed that they might be able to aid my right ear by setting the left side speakers to greater volume so I might be able to better place the sound. The install is happening on the 7th of Jan so I will find out soon 😊
@Audioholics Gene, I'll have to add that it can also go in reverse.... in a sense, not worth the higher cost. When I was at my last place, I was setup in a living room. I mostly used my system for HT and casual audio for music. No critical listening really. Just for parties and cleaning and lounging. But that was only like 10-20% of the time.
I initially had an old Yamaha RX2000 I got while stationed overseas. A mid-upper level product. Then I added an Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2 amp and used the pre-outs. Definitely saw a huge difference in performance. Both in sound quality and output.
That proved to me separates is the way to go. so I jumped on the closeout sale of the Crown XLS1500 and got 6 of them to add 2 more surrounds and got ATMOS with 4 ceiling speakers.
I read constantly about what's the best pre/pro and/or bang for the buck. I always liked Denon and Marantz. Plus I've read the Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 was about the best at the time in the consumer world under $3-5k.
I ended up finding a demo model of a Marantz 8802a pre/pro with full warranty for a steal. It was great. But then I read more and more on AVS, as you shouldn't do after buying, and decided to make a change. I swapped it out for a Marantz 7702mkii.
For the majority of content I listened to, being mostly HT duties, I honestly could not tell the difference. When trying to do some critical listening, there was a small improvement on the 8802a. But really wasn't worth the cost increase over the 7702mkii.
And I used multiple different types of speakers for the testing. Yamaha NS777's (also got overseas... it seems AAFES only liked Yamaha products in their electronics section), DIY Sound Group HTM12's, and a few other I don't remember. So I saved some money and downgraded!
Anyways, keep up the good work! Love what you do and all the videos here. Hope to see you again at the FL audio Expo next month!
Answers the question right away. So we stay till the end respect 🙏
I feel like most of this video was discussing peak performance rather than sound quality. You say yourself, whether or not the differences are audible depends on a number of factors. Disregarding room correction and other sound processing, I suspect there is little or no audible difference between an affordable receiver and a flagship receiver when both are running comfortably within their performance limits.
Ya I would think as well. The cheaper one must be much more and maybe just noticeable if being used OUTSIDE of its performance range such as if "clipping".
based on my experience listening to and reviewing AV receivers for the last 20 years, I'd say that your mistaken. The more expensive receivers tend to sound smoother than the inexpensive ones even when NOT driven to their limits. Of course at high volume, the differences do become more apparent.
I have definitely heard a significant difference between ‘cheap’ receivers and higher cost ones. Cheaper ones. sound harsh and screechy.
i.e. a $300 receiver vs $1500
In addition to amplification and signal handling differences, there are important feature and compatibility differences.
More channels, more decoding options, better signal processing/room eq and base management.
I do believe there is a point of diminishing returns, but I also believe there are perceivable differences.
For consumers however it really just comes to budget. Or, at least, budget allocation.
Will any pen do what a pen is intended to do? Computer, label maker, tile? Yes they all function the way you would expect, but different price points will offer different experiences.
@@grazen321 I'm not sure what budget receiver you were listening to that sounds harsh and screechy but that isn't the norm (assuming it was set up correctly, not defective, running comfortably within its performance limit and not powering speakers that are harsh and screechy).
We all know equipment manufacturers will present specs in a misleading way or take measurements in such a way that doesn't represent real world usage, but unless they are flat out lying about key specs, most AV receivers from reputable manufacturers should be pretty much audibly transparent. We're talking less than 0.1 THD and less than a decibel deviation in frequency response between 20Hz and 20KHz.
As well as selling electronics including AV and hi-fi equipment for a living, I'm also a musician. Take something like solid state or digital modelling guitar amplifiers vs valve/tube guitar amps for example. When people know which is which they'll go into great detail describing why one sounds better than the other (normally preferring the valve amp). When you give people a blind test, all that insight into the subtle nuances disappears very quickly and they're suddenly unable to pick out the one they were describing as fizzy and harsh or warm and organic when they knew which was which.
I've talked to people who are describing how much better the picture is on their new HD satellite box because they believe they're watching HD. I've later discovered they have it connected with a SCART cable, unaware that it doesn't output HD over SCART. Expectation plays a greater role than most people give it credit for. This is especially true of hi-fi.
@@napalmhardcore you have to be careful with blanket statements. I have main speakers that are inefficient and have a pretty good dip that goes near 4 ohms. They will eat a cheap amplifier due to current need and the dip. The amplifier i use to drive them needs to be on it's own 20 amp circuit as it will draw near 15 amps on full tilt and has tripped breakers in the past. Trust me there is a difference. I also have a pair of Klipsh speakers that are loud when only driven by a couple of watts and you may be closer to being right as they will sound good (as good as they can) being driven by most anything.
The receiver manufacturers also play fast with their rated outputs per channel and usually the rating per channel output will go down (sometimes significantly) if all channels are being fed power at the same time. Again they are limited by the power supply. I always get a chuckle seeing the cheap amplifiers claiming huge numbers that are being powered by a wart putting out 2 amps at 5 volts. The math doesn't lie.
Lastly circuit layout and isolation does matter. Separate power supplies for different areas (amp, preamp, decoding etc.) matters and so does quality of the components and chipsets used.
With all that said, you buy the tool that fits your job. My main system is high quality and sounds good. The system we have in the basement cost less than $600 (receiver and 5.1 speaker system) and, even though it is not nearly as good, it does exactly what i need from it and I'm satisfied.
Lastly never, never argue tube vs. solid state, there are no winners, and you leave a bloody battlefield behind. Similar to arguing digital vs. analog or CD vs. records (i'm old enough to refuse to call them vinyl, they're freaking records! No one ever, and i mean ever, called them vinyl.). You are right, perception clouds reality, but hey, we are human after all.
"Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor, not an audiophile."
I have the Onkyo TX-NR6050. I have my Paradigm Cinema 70ct series hooked up to it. I use this in my room though, so it's perfect for me. I have everything hooked up to it. My Roku Ultra, consoles, UHD Blu-ray player and PC. It all goes to my Samsung 43 inch Qn90b.
It all depends on what you're trying to drive, the size of the room and how loud you want it.
If you're only doing a 5.1 setup in a smaller room like myself, a $500-$1000 model is all you need.
That all being said, great job and great info here. Awesome work.
Excellent presentation youre my go to Guy on learning about the in and out about the AV
Very nice video and straight to the point. I also learned a lot! Thanks
To answer your question about expensive receivers sounding better. Honestly, if you don’t get the room acoustics right, the only benefits you are getting is more output and features. But, I do agree that a more expensive receiver will sound better, but you may have to spend quite a lot of money to get better sound. Just make sure room acoustics and speakers are not going to be a limiting factor. Get the basics right before you make any upgrades to the system.
Unfortunately not everyone has that kind of area. Like me, I have a living room with kitchen connected and all. But I think it's ok, not too picky and don't spend as much... I hope
Can you do a review on audio source pre amplifiers I'm thinking about buying 1 need your opinion thx👍👍👍👍
I knew the answer but the explanation is really fantastic, I learned so much more. My stuff is all about 20 years old and in looking to upgrade the cost is almost prohibitive.
Yes I think that is so true I had a Pioneer amp that I bought a 2012 and I had it until it kind of blew up on me not even turning at loud then switch to the Denon 2400. and really was impressed with the sound quality that clearness and the extra power hooked up to Klipsch speakers and it really. rocks nicely you can turn it up if you like Feel the Bass from the 10-inch subwoofer from Klipsch and enjoy it. it's not like an SVS but it does well for the price the subwoofer thank you audioholics Merry Christmas Happy New Year,
Thanks for this. I think I am going to keep my Denon 2805 now. I really don't need Dolby Atmos anyway. I also have an old Denon pro logic from the 90's. It was my first surround receiver and probably ran me around 500 or so. It is incredibly heavy and outweighs the 2805 by far. Amazing how they built them back in the day.
As someone that started with a Yammy RX-v620 & worked my way into separates, I can attest to his statement. I'm not someone that has an extra $100k I can just throw into my home system so I'm always researching & trying to get the best bang for my buck........& guys like Gene help.
i found my new tech guy.. he just gets it... man i cant wait to watch this guys complete channel!!!!
I still have the HK 3490 stereo receiver which I bought 6 years ago based on Audioholics measurements and review 👍
Tomorrow night is Christmas eve! and Gene is going to shimmy himself through your 15 amp line, check your impedance switch on the back of your receiver to see if you've been a good little Audioholic, and if you have, he'll use his frosty fairy breath to cryo-treat your cables. He's not into cookies, but if you leave out graphs, he's been known to give quite the nod. If you have a dedicated 20 amp line, he won't have to shimmy, and may even take the extra time to tweak your toe in just liiiiiiiiitle bit.
20A times 125V = 2500 W available. Guaranteed hearing damage with all D-class amps at maximum output and horn speakers...
@@michaels3003 don't matter to me listening to metal music and riding loud motorcycles,my hearing gone just feel the punchy bass from my dual subs
LOL
Marantz does have $500 receivers. And most are buying $200 Denon ..onkyo..Yamaha. And they all sound Very good.
Bought an Onkyo TX8220 for 280 euro. 2 channel stereo. Nice sound, very clear. DAB digital broadcasting inclusive. Though it should give 100w per channel it sounds more like 30w per channel on my self composed 4 ohm 3 way speaker system. So maybe Gene is right. Well, my neighbours on the other side of the common seperation wall won't be unlucky with that. If it lasts the last 20 years of my life I am happy too.
a dutchman
they sound acceptable ... Very good costs a bit more, like 1k +
For Big Surround Sound where this is all about you need more channels than only 2 and you have to invest some times more.
Than you can let yourself be blown away comfortly. All the speakers you need are a (financial) consequence not to forget!
@@totalplonker824 Wow! You're one cool dude! Though you would want to give your own opinion you still held back. Great impulse control. Let's use mine instead. I have both Marantz SR5600 & SR8500. Your guess is as good as mine! Thanks!
@@totalplonker824 so sad to hear that Sir. Still I wish you could get your dream home theater setup. My setup is very simple & light. My tv is just the old 40 inch Sony HX800. I think you should go for the Marantz slim design which surely might fit on your cabinet Sir. By the way, I'm? going to sub on your channel. Thanks. Take care & keep safe always okay.
Love the detailed technical analysis! It's something concrete and believable, unlike fluffy descriptions of what something sounded like.
Regarding "better DACs," a buddy and I did a blind test of CD players a number of years ago at a stereo shop with decent store-supplied headphones. Independently, we both picked out the most expensive player as the one we liked the most, the cheapest as the one we liked the least, and two other mid-priced players as somewhere in between. Was it all the headphone amps in the players, i.e. would they have all sounded the same through a stereo amp or AV receiver? I doubt it since the way sampled data is converted into analog varies from model to model. I have no doubt anyone with half an ear can tell the difference between expensive and cheap gear.
Just to let you know, this video helped me understand and unlock the potential of my receiver. Thanks!
This is classroom type video. Good job Gene
Geez this guy knows what he's talking about
Because, he is about to talk what he knows.
Yes, it was demonstrated when the first thing he mentioned was the power supply. The power supply is the heart of an audio receiver. I loved my old 1970s vintage Marantz for that very reason - it had an absolutely mammoth power supply for something rated 'only' at 45 watts. Primitive? You bet! But that power stage was never starved for juice.
@@xaenon I'm thinking of buying the Marantz SR 8012. Check out the power supply on that. Insane build quality. Huge transformer in the center inside with dual heat sinks etc.. Copper chassis etc.. 40 freaking lbs. Over 18 inches deep. I'll have to cut the back of my cabinet so it can stick out to fit. And all I'm going to do with it is try to run my vintage polk SDA SRS 180 lb speakers. I'll bi amp them so I should get close to 400 watts per channel. It will be a tough load because these are truly the most power hungry and truly 4 ohm speakers. I'm afraid even this AVR won't cut it. But its one of the most powerful on the market. 3K bucks. The guys in the polk forum swear I'll blow it up. Maybe they are right. They think I need old school pre amp/ amp setup. But IMO, if you have allot of current and a great power supply that will make up for allot of things.
@@HiPlains1 You're speaking about quite a bit more high-end than I ever needed or even wanted, so I can't speak with any sort of authority regarding your proposed setup. Usually, if I'm at a point where I'm contemplating something and knowledgeable people are warning me off, I consider that my cue to re-evaluate goals, lol.
@@xaenon I certainly hear you there! That's what made Carver great, ingenious set up giving tons of power when needed, but yet consumed a tiny amount when not needed. I just will never understand why he didn't add a soft start feature.
Would love to see a short video on receivers you have tested new and vintage that lends them selves to be used as a clean pre-amp
Great info Gene. Thanks for posting.
Good information. Personally, I'll put my money into a 2 ch amp and pre-amp. I listen to music, and watch movies.
First, your video is very informative, and I appreciate your using detailed FFT measurements over a single 1kHz measurement that is almost useless in evaluating the distortion of an amplifier.
Your main argument against sub $2-3k receivers is driving full range 4ohm loads. That seems to be a fairly niche use case. I run 8 ohm DIY speakers with an 80Hz crossover to my subwoofer. Looking at DATS impedance sweeps, my Atmos speakers have the lowest dip to 6 ohms in the 200-800Hz range. In our small to medium sized media room at about 20db below reference where we typically watch movies, I still don't even hear a difference with eco mode on or off on my Marantz 6012 driving 9 channels with 2 channels externally driven for my 7.1.4 setup. I run it with eco set to auto so it can ramp up the voltage if needed. The reality is that in the typical HT environment each speaker is rarely pulling more than a few watts of power. The exceptions are large dedicated rooms at reference levels. Most people find that 20-30db below reference is better in our smaller rooms compared to a commercial cinema.
I used to have an old Yamaha HTR Level reciever. I think it was a 5785. It at the time I thought had good sound quality but it was my first reciever. I now run an Adventage RX-A1000. Older model but it has better DACS, better transformer, and more power than my old 5785. And night and day difference. I run 8ohm speakers (always have) when I pushed the old reciever it started clipping but this new one with klipsch speakers is crystal clean all the way up to where my neighbors dont like me. Amazing difference!!!
I took Gene's review and bench test into consideration before I ended up selecting the very nice Marantz SR-8012. It is not absolutely perfect but it performs very well and gives me very good sound in my home theater. And I power my front 3 speakers with an external Emotiva power amp. I have gone from a Yamaha RX-V995 to a Pioneer Elite SC-05 to a Marantz SR-8012.
Should the question be ...Is the average person able to tell the difference between chap and expensive receiver if the functionality is identical ??
At moderate to low levels, I really don’t think so. For major brands, they all use similar components and mid to low end receivers use Class AB output stages. I think you’d be hard pressed to hear differences in blind testing. What differentiates low to mid to high end is a combination of features and slightly better components. Power supply must be designed for higher power of course. Recently bought a Denon 540BT receiver for 180 (refurb), sounds pretty darn good.
@@gman76utube I get the cheapest AV that has all the best features plus pre outs for all channels. Since the pre amps in any decent model is identical. I stick with the mid range denons like a x3500 etc. The pre is the same as their 5k top of the line. And even in their best the power amp blows. So get a used midntier with pre outs and then get a NAD power amp etc. With 200 watts per channel. I prefer multiple stereo amps or mono amps. And use them. And boom. Unbeatable
@@patrickrosington1174 I pretty much go by same theory. I got the Onkyo TXRZ820 because of the pre outs. I drive my fronts with an AB amp and the Onkyo has plenty of power for the rest. Though I may upgrade my center and get an amp for that, the speaker I'm looking at is 300 w peak. It'll balance out my front, I have large fronts.
The answer is yes, they can tell the difference. But a better question would, does it matter to them? Which is to say, does the value they get out of the product, justify the cost? Remember the boom of MP3? That proved the average Joe is more concerned with convenience, than he is in quality.
Yeah, they actually can. I consider myself pretty average like that. The difference between my $500 Yamaha RXV485 and $2000 RXV2081 is quite significant. I actually bought the RXV485 after I bought the RXV2081 to use in a second room. But ended up using it in the main room for almost a year, before swapping the RXV2081 back in. Big big difference in quality at the same volume. I kicked myself for not swapping back the older but better model earlier. But without having access to both units at the same time to compare, you just wouldn't think you are missing anything.
I went from a denon s920h to a marantz sr7012. I thought the denon sounded good until I heard the marantz. The marantz was so clear and dynamic.
Jason I went from a yamaha 681 to the Marantz SR7012 also and there is no comparison. The sr7012 is so clear and robust sounding. I an running 4ohm 5.1.2 martin logans no problems.
Denon and marazntz are the same brand.
tom colopy just like you’re mom and dad are brother and sister.
Just received my Marantz today. I have a Sony AVR right now. I think I’m in for a nice surprise! My next purchase in a couple of months is an external amp. Can’t wait.
Ariel Alaniz you’re going to love your marantz. I’ve never Heard the Sony.
informative and well structured presentation. 👏🏼
Awesome video. Gave a like and watched the whole video just because you gave the answer up front.
It has too many variables to state that one will immediately offer any real performance improvement in practice. The question for me is ultimately how big is the room, what SPL is needed, how efficient are the speakers, and can the AVR deliver sufficient power without significant problems that would likely be audible. A small NYC flat using easy to drive bookshelves in a 5.1 configuration could work fine off of a few $300 receivers I've had over the years. In addition, I find the premise that the DAC will perform better in higher price offerings not necessarily true. Amir at ASR (AudioScienceReview) did measurements on various AVRs including Anthem. They all seem to settle on a "good enough" solution, no-where near the objective performance of dedicated DACs. This of course is not to say it's audible, that's questionable, but is worth mentioning.
I guess I could sum up this simpler: horses for courses. If one understands their application and exercises compromise mitigation then the right balance can be reached.
I would recommend external amplification as the way to go from the very beginning, then switch to passive for upgrades. It may sound inverted to popular believes but it is for one simple reason: If you start your investment with just a good pair of autoamplified speakers you will have great sound even if you don't have an AVR yet, and neither fancy FX on movies. But then, when you get more into the hobby you can buy a proper AVR and more speakers. But this time the new speakers can perfectly be passive and cheaper (as only the main pair is critical for music and you ready got a good amplifier for the others ), maybe except the sub which really deserves special attention and no corners cutting.
The other way you will start with generalised mediocrity in all components, a crappy AVR and crappy speakers, so you will have to replace everything later. But as it cost too much you will be tempted to only upgrade to external amplification because your AVR is not up to the task and you can not afford a full replacement... just to discover that it is not good enough yet because the AVR.
So start with a really good pair of speakers and everything else will come naturally.
good advice
Yes, I went from an older Yamaha to an Onkyo with the same Klipsch speakers and man did those speakers come alive. Night and day difference.
I had a Yamaha RX- V2600 for 12 years, great box. Started having problems so I got a Sony STR-DN1080. I have 20 year old B&W 601/602 and a Klipsch 12" and this new system blows away my Yamaha at half the price. Sorry, the clean dialog and mostly the 2 channel sweet spot on vinyl and cds with my Grant Fidelity tube amp is outstanding. My ear test for me of course,. Tile floors and a 5.1 system. Maybe the "brightness" of the Sony is well matched to wake up my B&Ws but I'll take it. Love your videos.
A 9ch amp with large power supply is all that I need,more that half of options I don't use on my denon AVR-X4500H running a 7.2
I only need 2ch for my AVR-X4500H. My Bryston 250wpc does that job to feed my hungry Dynaudio speakers.
Why do you need 9 channels if you're only using 7? You should have just bought separates.
@@thienha1796 hi, what DynAudio speakers and Bryston model you use? I have Focus 160 & Yamaha AVR V767 which is under powered for the Dyn's. Do you recommend any other setup to best drive the book shelves?
Thien Ha why buy a receiver if you are only using 2 channels? I run the front channels from a separate power amp and use the receiver to drive center and surround. Alternately you can use 4 channels of the receiver to bi-amp the front channels. This in effect doubles the power the receiver can deliver to your front speakers assuming the crossover is around 250-300Hz.
Thanks for the informative video - yes it would be nice to be able to afford $2500 for an AVR but most people can't and even if can it's not always a great idea.
The way I've gone about it over last 15 years with the constantly changing tech (mostly HDMI bandwidth and newer surround decoding) is that I just plan on buying a $750 to $1000 AVR every five years for my 5.1 home theatre and then I have a higher end 2 channel preamp/amp/DAC. I have my Oppo balanced out to 2 channel and then HDMI out to AVR so the only real annoyance with this setup is speakers and I ended up with small satellite speakers and sub for 5.1 and then nicer floorstanding for 2 channel.
Subscribed because he told the answer at the beginning then proved it later. The hero we deserve.
Thank you for the video. Would not mind a updated one
Hey! can you do a straight forward best receiver by price range and why?
YOU DO IT LAZY BASTARD0!
Yeah you do it lazy bastard!
God Dante you're SO lazy
Time for these manufacturers pull their heads out of their arses. Better to sell a receiver with maybe 5 channel amps with good pre-amp out puts and realize tou can't put everything in one box. I think we've gone backwards.
Ya right, and who the hell anyway listen to 11.2.2 at home?! Like maybe just 1% of people and I can assure you that 100% of those with tons of channels are definitely not gonna use some shitty 500$ receiver and will be having separates. They don't get that quality over quantity... Perhaps this is because of the marketing scammers that wants us instead to think that bigger numbers are more impressive, that's sad.
I think companies that are using the more efficient class D amps like the Pioneer Elite D3 units have more space to work with. The SC-LX901 unit for example has separate preamp and amplifier blocks. Also, the power supply is isolated. Its very possible that one could used this unit for an 11.2 system and get about as good performance as one can expect from a single receiver. Also, companies like NAD, Anthem, Arcam, Marantz, etc have some 5-7 channel receiver units with great fidelity. If one wants more there are for sure 5-7 channel separates out there with great performance.
@@walterdockins8475 And still doesn't sound as good as the Elite VSX 54/55/56 TXi series, the best they made from 2000 till now.
@Pho Tato don't forget that most 7.x receivers are being sold for 5.x.2 more than they are being sold for 7.x.
I think I just sold my 2nd 7.1 speaker set in 5 years today. Everyone else buying into more channels I've sold has done so for the potential of Atmos or DTSX.
that's why I got the Onkyo txrz820, good price point for an AVR with pre outs on every channel. I was surprised how hard it is to find a newer model receiver with pre outs with out breaking the bank.
I feel like the kid who walks into the wrong classroom in middle school. I thought my $700 receiver was expensive. I'll show myself out.
Great information. Thanks, Gene! 😉👍
I'm getting seasick watching you sway back and forth LOL
This is for use on the sea ship. Compatible. It counter the sway movement of the ship to reduce your sickness.
Totally thinking the same thing
He said he was doing this video on a boat.
Absolutely heard the difference in receivers I have owned and in comparing receivers when I sold them. The phenomenon of lower quality as features have increased has unfortunately been going on for many years.
Great video. I've been looking at the Denon X8500H but as you said, at that price point (4K) why not just get separates. But I do like this product because it gives consumers options even above the "budget AVR" price point.
Great insights, and upfront advice, keep it up. I wanted to know.... which sound system(s) would you recomend for home, considering I want to get good quality stereo, surround n all that, plus get good sound for my movies and even play my old casstte tapes n CDs from back in the day. Your advice will be much appreciated, thanks.
You just crushed my setup😩😂 well good thing I’m always a little behind and buy my receivers that’s one or two years old so I can get them cheep from all the audio freaks that just needs the brand new one🤪 I just come in and say I take that junk for 100 bucks🤷♂️🤪😂
So me! 😂 😂 😂
The higher end gear sounds so transparent that you can hear how poorly most material is recorded.
It's so annoying because I listen to hip-hop on my HiFi system. So many of my favourite artists have such artificial sounding music and mastering. Even the really big artists take shortcuts sometimes.
THANKS lots of good info here. It really is tough to find good bang for the buck. I had no idea that "switch 4ohm" they actually lower the power supply to the speakers instead of ensuring they supply Higher current for the Lower impedance.
That was very educational and now makes me feel better about holding on to one of my old pre-HDMI AV Receivers.
I thought it was odd that some AV Receivers with pre-amp outputs had no option to shut down the internal amplifier. That makes no sense to me.
You get what you pay for!
I went separates years ago and long term it’s worth the cost.
Have you tested a NAD reciver
Cheaper receivers are a waste of money. You can tell the difference right away. but many never had a high-end AV receiver. in that sense, they don't know the difference. back in 1997, I bought an Onkyo TX-DS838. made in Japan, it is still working perfectly today.
took me a while to part ways,
After listening to Gene reviewing the Yamaha RX-A6A and seeing the built quality I decided that's my next receiver. (Since I don't buy a new unit every 5 years)
It's like asking if a $500 TV will perform as well as a $2000 TV. the answer is obvious, You get what you paid for. there is no magic in this field.
I have a Marantz and love the speaker config to your room with a mic they give you and currently running 7.1 in walls and it set them up perfectly for my “listening area”
AugmentedPixel , I hope you are seated in a properly treated listening room in order that your "setup" works... most listening rooms are too small to use their software. A good room comes in from 20' x 30' and up. Most rooms need 4 sealed subwoofers, also.
@@BruceNitroxpro excuse my french but bullshit. Reading distance between the speaker and mic will not be effected by room size. The software can easily mitigate distance by looking at when it made the pulse, and the earliest the mic heard it. Reflections will take longer to reach the mic and therefore be lagging behind the straight path sound. Reflections will be included in the overall freq chart and it won't matter because that is what you will hear IRL. So EQing the peaks and valleys doesn't matter if you're in a good or bad room, it's the entire reason the software exists SMH. Yes you will have better/cleaner sound with a treated room, but the auto EQing works exactly the same in both types of rooms.
@@BruceNitroxpro
What's the matter with you? You crazy or something? Most rooms need 4 sealed sub woofers? You are out of your skull!!!
There is a reason why some products are more expensive than others!
Unless you are apple😀
@@dtwistrewind7361 Essentially, yes. Some brands do overcharge for hardware solely based on the name glued to its faceplate.
Do i need to be concerned about the 4 ohm thing if my speaker is rated at 8 ohms anyway?
8ohm doesn't take nearly as much power as 4ohm so you will be fine
@@snowingsniper Wait... what!?
@@WillieDWashington yes it takes more power to push 4ohm speakers than 8ohm speakers
I have an Onkyo TX-RZ820 and a set of Energy Take 5.1 speakers. Cheap? Yes. Functional in every way I currently want or need? Absolutely. Sound more than good enough - even amazing? Yes! That said, I know how much better a $2000 receiver with comparable speakers will sound. A $15000 receiver? Forget about it.
Yes, the expensive stuff sounds expensive if you're feeding it a good signal. Even so, I love my little Onkyo and those Energy speakers. No, it's not overheating or falling apart. No, it's not glitching out. It's absolutely taking everything I'm throwing at it, and it handles every signal I can give it. It handles all of my sources with aplomb. If I were still an "audiophile" in the same vain as I was in the 90's, I'd be pushing hard for something better. As it is, at the volume levels and with the sources I use, I'm more than happy with my cheap gear.
In an average-sized living room, with a decent set of 8-ohm or 6-ohm speakers, at usable volumes, you won't have an issue with these cheaper amps.
As always Gene I thoroughly enjoy your common sense explanations of your opinions and then back it up with science. Thanks again. Wouldn't it be great if all the manufacturers to install an amp bypass switch when using pre-amp outs?