Do Expensive Amplifiers Sound Better than Cheaper ones?
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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We discuss if price determines sound quality and performance in audio amplifiers. What does more money get you and what performance metrics determine sound quality? Be sure to watch this CZcams video overview and read our related article.
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#amplifiers #audiophile #stereo - Věda a technologie
Thanks for telling the short quick answer right at the beginning, and than telling details why. I like that way of answering the questions
Yes, but you really need to try a Crown XLS1502 (or higher XLS) with Drivecore. Gene, A/B test asap
@@tallpaull9367
I've been around the block, had different architectures, technologies, approaches. Designed many an amp. Made my own serious A/B remote switcher more than forty years ago. There's probably fifty amplifiers in my house. Thing is, you can't even talk to people about this stuff. Too much black magic and snake oil in their neurons. I picked up an xs1200 refurbished for a theatre sub project I was developing and made the mistake of trying it on my main system, in place of my large monoblock amps that are fully complementary-symmetry and fully balanced input to output, power response into the am radio band, couple thousand watt difficult to move power supplies, biased to idle at five hundred watts each. Which clearly any audiophile would know sounds better without even trying but boy was I in for a schooling. Those monster amps are still around here somewhere... 🤔 And I don't really need the lfe subwoofers. I don't use the movie surround sound anymore either. My listening experience is better than ever and I've been an audiophile for over fifty years.
Chabulawa12345 stars
@@tallpaull9367 I want more for us people in the cheap seats.
@@tallpaull9367 I was going to write the same.
That amp dose it. super good.
Gene is such a nice guy ! No snobbery or condescending yapping! He is a decent engineer and I always like his topics !
One of the most educational channels on hifi available. Thank you for all the things I've learned from you.
Thanks for your reviews and please keep producing them! As far as amplifiers go, I love my older Bryson 4b and paradigm studio reference speakers.
I recently upgraded my amp from an older multi channel class A/B amp with PS Audio Stellar M1200 hybrid amps. The improvement was dramatic and has brought a new level of enjoyment to my home theater. I was on the fence about class D, but when done well they can be truly fantastic. I almost went with a more budget friendly option, but sacrificed getting more gear for better gear and I’m happy I did. We all wish we could afford the really high end stuff, but finding good equipment for a reasonable budget, by comparison, is a true blessing.
I run a set of Class D monoblocks, the PS Audio Stellar M700's, and I'm very happy with them. I use them to drive a pair of Magnepan 1.7i's; a speaker that "traditionally" people recommend Class AB for, but these amps really make them sing.
Hey Gene... I'm looking to build a dedicated movie theater in my home this year. Your videos have been very helpful. I really appreciate your content.
I confess I really didn't expect such a well thought out explanation. Thanks Gene.
You make a lot of good points, Gene. I really liked the reference to the listening spaces and the kind of music you play. This interaction is more important to me than the charts and graphs that most audio reviews spend their time presenting.
@Audioholics I'm a long time audioholics viewer and this is one of my fav videos. More like these Gene! I appreciate the detailed info and real world comparisons
My number one hate of the high end stereo amps is NO TONE CONTROL!!! Add a tone control but just add a bypass for those that think it is detrimental to the sound output. I don’t want to just listen to audiophile albums I want to listen to albums I like and when those albums are recorded bright or low then I need to have a bass and treble tone control.
I just bumped into your channel today and I must say it was a revelation. Finally, someone who tells it like it is, in a language even non technical folks can understand. Kudos to you, and I’ll spread the word. Great stuff.
Excellent video and audio improvements. I enjoyed this video much more then your older videos. Great content. Keep it coming.
I have a Rotel Ra 1572 integrated amplifier with Kef R300 speakers and sound fantastic.
Nice video, now follow it up with an episode of some specific amp recommendations by price range and it will be even better. 😉
Recently I tried some different speakers, and I was reminded how the amp/speaker match so important. Some amps will perform better on some speakers than others. it’s impossible to say which is absolutely best at a price because it’s so dependant on what you are driving.
Love my totally updated SX 1250. Keeps me in shape when I have to move it. And you can’t beat the look.
Really love this channel. Always so informative. Looking to buy my next 2 channel amp, and your info really helps a great deal
Hello Gene: I have been reading your wonderful "straight to the point", down earth and very explanatory comments since the "Stereo Review" era. I specially like this article on " Are there any differences among different amplifier brands and electronic approach?". You did it again, most of my doubts are clear now !!! I have a Sherbourne 7/2100 for my home theater set up which fills in many ways my audio needs. I particularly love the idea of having seven amplifiers acting almost independently in every aspect specially in the power section. It is like comparing front wheel drive vs real wheel drive cars. I of course would choose rear wheel drive for many good and obvious reasons. Keep up your tirelessly effort in shedding some light in this "shady" business !!!!!!
tomas baer , Buy a 4 by.
finally...i very honest, quick and understandable explanation of how amplifier quality affects sound. there are so many opinions out there without any backup or explanation. so, thanks!
Thank you Gene for another informative and straight talking video. You have asked to comment on the amplifier we are using. In my case it is a NAD M22 class D power amp driving a pair of PMC Twenty.26 speakers. I am more than happy with the performance but to be honest I have not compared it with anything else, so whether my £2,400 would have been better spent on some other brand I have no idea. Hopefully not.
Thank you Gene, great video! In my dedicated theater I have Crown XLR 2502's, alongside a Emotiva XPR 5. In my second system I went with the Sunfire 7401, and in my living room I'm running Emotiva XPA 5 gen 2. These amps have served me well, and it was based off your recommendations that I went with Emotiva as a brand. That said, I really hope that you and Matthew revisit this topic and provide more of a buyer's tutorial on how to buy an amplifier, doing things like you did in this video, providing definitions of terms that my go over the head of those of us who are not engineers. Terms like Damping factor, variable impedance, etc. And since we're on the subject of amplifiers, can we PLEASE discuss GAIN, what it is, and why it's important, which IMO is what most people want from their Amplifiers. Thank you and Audioholics for all you do, I look forward to the content and information you provide.
It would be awesome to see some old vs new amplifiers like the best of vintage 70s and 80s. I would love to see a Vfet amp take on a transistor amp with good test equipment ❤️
NAIM is by far my favorite amplifier company (they pair well with Legacy speakers). I've tried others but always return to them. I'd like to hear LFD however.
And absolutely agreed about how much audio performance has improved for the money over the last handful of years. Revolutionary. There's never been a better time for audio value than today.
Good content and delivery. Short, concise, sufficient visuals. A winning formula.
Thanks Gene. Again, you do an awesome job of demystifying this. Do you have an opinion on Devialet’s hybrid A/D design?
A response that's a few years late but a few reviewers came out and talked about as well as measured them and they did not perform well
I bought an Outlaw model 5000 thanks to you and HE-MAN. Best purchase...$450
I owe you 1!!
Headroom and dynamics define themselves.
I have a 5000 for my 4 atmos ceiling speakers and the 7000x for my main 7 channels. Aweaome amps and a great deal for the money. $1400 for both.
Now I just need a HDMI 2.1 prepro. Marantz AV7706 or whatever it will be called.
Those are build by ATI , I got the bigger brother 7 channel these amps have been rebranded crestron, outlaw, cinepro , monolith
Pretty much all the same amps ..
Cannot go wrong with these tanks, my weights 97 pounds class a/b
@@MichelLinschoten Not the 5000. That's built by NAD.
😮
Thanks Gene for all the expertise you've brought to the audio field over the years to the audiophile community. What do you think of the amplification performance of hybride amps such as the Moon 390 pre-amp or the D-class Integrated M-10 from NAD, regardless of their functionality ?
Love it! I've been looking to upgrade meaby in 2020, and Im really looking forward to se some of the stuff thats coming, Rotel Michi series is coming to Euroupe in first q. Classe is coming out with new amps, pascal and Lyngdorf are some of the class d amps that I've looked at. Love the video!
Go with the Michi!
Interesting video. I may be upgrading my amplifier setup soon. The class D amps from PS Audio and ATI seem interesting. I'd love it if Audioholics could review those (or similar amps). Thanks for the great content!
We have ATI Class D amp review here: www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/ati-at4002
I have the NAD C-388 plenty of power future proof upgradeable with various modules, software upgrade by USB stick. To me, it sounds great very good control on speakers' tight bass and runs cool. Efficiency is 90%. Have been an Audio guy close to 50 years had Power A and Power A/B amplifiers and made the jump into D power and never looked back. The price is fair as well..
I wish the Class D stuff was more affordable. Class AB is fine and my Outlaw stuff is awesome quality for the money; I just want a lower electric bill.
@@lakorai2 some crown amps are class ab
Check out the Benchmark AHB2 amp. Not huge power, but very honest power.
Rotel RMB-1585 amp here. Class A/B and love the sound. Heavy as hell though 😅
Great insight... appreciate your view/perspective... would like to know what your thoughts are on McIntosh
Excellent synopsis. I bought a Monoprice Monolith 7 after reading your review, and am very happy with it. It weighs a ton, but the performance is worth a sore back.
Love this video, and love the work you do to cut through the audio BS out there. :-)
I sometimes dabble in audio equipment, and tend to find myself investing more in areas of my life where acoustics is worse, such as my car. For my home, the acoustics are much better, but no where near any sort of audiophile level. I'm generally content with budget gear provided I can run my own equalization to get monitor-like, consistent sound. And I hate all of the budget monitors out there because the drivers and enclosure designs are normally very good, but the amps and crossovers inside are garbage. So I run passive bookshelf speakers that are run by an amp. My latest budget amp is a Dayton Audio APA150 (class AB amp), which is just a brand/model slapped on a Chinese-made design (eg: Emotiva BPA-1). The price is almost the same as its model number, for a very wallet-friendly $150. This amp hilariously has more distortion in the right channel, but still when I'm using it at 25% to 50% on its gain, the THD is still very, very low at most frequencies. My budget amp is powering a pair of Klipsch R-41M speakers.
Some day I'd love to have fun creating a quality listening room and getting quality equipment, but it's always a battle with the wife to spend more money.
Love my old McIntosh amplifiers although some are now needing new capacitors after 45 years.
Nothing beats a Mcintosh!
Make sure the caps are put in properly. MrCarlsonsLab has a vid about the subject, and he demonstrates with a scope why it matters.
Thanks for the nice tips. Happy to hear about the EMOTIVA, that we bought one XPA-2 here in Brasil. We have a pair of Magnepans 3.6R and we hope to have a nice time with them.
I'm waiting on a class D amp now, which I will hopefully get in February. It's based on the Hypex NCore tech, so should be pretty good. Very excited to hear the difference from my current class AB amp from around 2010.
Love these videos.
I'm loving my monolith 5 amp. It replaced my Rotel class D amp. It really opened up my speakers.
I love my old Marantz 1152 dc integrated amp I paid 450.00 in 1978. A lot of money to me at that time
One of your best episodes! Great to hear some real science underpinning a legitimate hypothesis on why certain amps can sound different under certain conditions.
One thing which I think could use more fleshing out is *how much audible difference* does it make, and *under what conditions* is a significant difference going to be heard? Is this stuff that only matters under strenuous conditions like extreme dynamics at high SPL? Do most differences vanish at moderate volumes (we know most people probably never use more than 10-20 wpc).
Full of logical fallacies and justifications for snake oil. What could it possibly mean that an amp is "smooth sounding" or "more composed"? Give me a break. The use of such non-scientific, nonsensical, and therefore essentially irrefutable terms makes the whole thing easily dismissed.
An amp that is cheap and light must sound worse? Right. Let's weigh our amps to see which one sounds better. That is old-school nonsense.
How the marketing department specifies the power is a performance factor? That makes no sense aside from being sure to compare apples to apples. We don't play back sine waves and content is never "continuous" so measuring amps in that fashion is not necessarily more right than specifying peak power. There are plenty of independent measurements of the "cheap Behringer" amps that show they put out a lot more clean power for the money than the Emotivas and Monoliths no matter how you specify it. People paying extra for "beefy" amps with "audiophile" pedigree is marketing BS.
He makes a big deal about impedance variability but the frequency response pictured shows a variation of about 2dB at 20KHz. I challenge anyone above the age of 30 to identify a 2dB variation at 20KHz in a blind comparison of real content. I doubt anyone of any age could hear it.
Lots of reasons here why different amps might sound different, but no evidence of any sort that such differences are actually audible.
Good point!
I cashed out my $6000. BAT VK-500 power amp system for a vintage Sansui AU-D11ii integrated with little regrets.
However, I am still curious about the new Yamaha A-S3000 and the Luxman I-509x current attributes of "new" tech?
@@gregworrel2623 Then listen to an amp they use for an intercom system or Karaoke party and be happy with it.
@@povertime6381 Go ahead and ignore the science and spend thousands on amps that have been proven to sound no different. This is just snake oil presented with a facade of science and reason, while ignoring the scientific method that would prove it false.
ESSPECIALLY WHEN YOUVE GOT GOOD 4K 7,1SURROUND SOUND,AND A GOOD SUBBWOOFER AS GOOD SPEAKERS,ARE A MUST.I E MOURDANT SHORTS MISSION Q ACOUSTICS WHARFDALE DIAMOND MONITOR AUDIO DALI TANNOY CAMBRIGE AUDIO FOCAL CORAS,I COULD GO ON.BUT I THINK YOU GET THE IDEA.MY AMP VOLUME NEVER GOES PAST _35 DB,I DONT KNOW WHAT IT IS IN WHATTS BUT I DONT THINK ITS MUCH MORE THAN 30 WHATTS PER CHANNEL??🤔🤔😉👌✌
13:19 I’ve been super happy with my a/b Emotiva 250/500 watt amp purchased a few years ago. This experience reinforces everything you cited in your video. It’s powered a wide variety of speakers including some difficult loads.
I appreciate your straight-shooting advice.
Another great learning video. Please keep up the informative ,in depth reviews. I do have a question. I’ve heard a lot of positive information about Emotiva and their well valued components on this channel. I’m going to finally add the rear surround channels to my home theater to make it a 7.1 system. Considering the other five channels are McCormack Audio driven power amps, would the Emotiva BasX A-300 be a good match to drive the rear channel? Thank you for your time and I’ve learned quite a bit from your work.
Ever bench the older Crown Macrotech or QSC lines (MX etc)? I have always heard they are stout and great sounding. I hear people praising the newer drive Core lines and currious on the old vs new aspect.
The QSC that was in the cover image for this video was one of the Mx or Rmx lines which not a cheap pro amp, that is an easy 1250+ pro amp.
I have an old Crown Microtech 600 and a Crown 800 CSL. Both are nice amps and of course old - so no longer produced but can be found used at around $200. The Microtech 600 is pretty nice. The 800 CSL is very very good. I think amps are like engines... there is no replacement for displacement. Low or high volume the sound is full and punchy, even without a preamp it sounds good straight from the source with very little hum at high gain. I run a couple of old rebuilt 3-way speakers with it and the sound is stunning, people are amazed they fill a big space with full range sound. I did evenutally use a parametric EQ to get the sound that I wanted from them. You don't have to spend a lot to have an amazing sound. My setup: Chromecast Audio ($30) > Nobsound micro tube preamp with GE tubes ($65 with the upgraded tubes, this device smooths the digital signal coming from a chromecast and makes it much more natural) > Monoprice 31 band EQ ($100) > Crown CSL 800 ($200) > Rebuilt Optimus 3-way speakers upgraded crossover, drivers, bracing, sound deadening, ($300 originally in 1990 and another $500 invested over time)
PS Audio,Peachtree, Bel Canto, and NuForce all have some great Class D options.
I have a Nuprime HD-AVA (made by NuForce) which uses the same internal amp as is in the Nuprime IA-16, and it sounds really good.
NAD as well the affordable 328 and the more expensive C 388 which is future-orientated and can add Module I use the C 388 very happy with it
I have an audio research D100B solid state amp ..and I love it !
I agree with Gene's presentation about amplifier design and sound. I have to Halfer 930 Transnova amps running as monoblocks; it's older technology but they perform extremely well
I bought Emotiva back when the the Aussie dollar was equal to US. Xpa2 drives my ultra towers without breaking a sweat! Keep up the good work Gene 👌👌
I have an Emotiva xpa-3 and love it.
I am selling my XPA-1 Gen 1 monoblocks in ebay right now. They have lasted me years and are fantastic, I recently upgraded to a class A amp, very little difference until very high listening levels
I love my monolith 11.
Great video Gene! The more I learn the more I realize I need to learn!
I've loved home audio all my life but only in the last 5 years have I really started exploring all the differences in gear. I've been buying and selling on the used market quite bit and even rebuilding some vintage speakers.
Lots of fun and a great learning experience.
Crazy how 10 years ago I thought my Best Buy Klipsh speakers and lower power Onkyo receiver were awesome sounding equipment lol.
I look forward to more of your content!
Great knowledgeable video, many thanks for posting. Just bought a new hi fi system after 20 years plus. Bought a class D amp, amazed at how quiet the amp is. So pleased with the purchase👍
Best audio channel in CZcams!
I refer to the answer my dad gave when I asked if people were smarter than dolphins: some are and some aren't.
I like that
depends whether you're in the water or on dry land
most aren't
@@reginaldjames7975 They seem to do okay without having to spend money on audio equipment.
I recently acquired a Bel Canto REF300S to replace a pair of well-regarded CLASS A monoblocks. I had previously upgraded several other components (media player, DAC, preamp, cables, etc) and even though there were improvements somehow I was always looking for more. In hopes to arrive sonically to this unknown place, I talked to a lot of people in the audiophile industry, watched many hours of youtube high-end audio reviews, visited RMAF, demoed components in my home, but none of them was as impactful as this 250w/ch Bel Canto. WOW!
The most obvious thing I noticed was that the speakers disappeared and the music was just present. Without even trying to focus to find a difference what happened was that I found myself simply enjoying the music, tapping my foot, singing (I am not a good singer but with this kind of sound it did seem I had a great voice) and loving music more. No longer I would have to start describing the sound I just heard in some technical jargon, now I can just feel the music in my whole body which is pretty amazing.
WOW! I love what this upgrade and what it does to what really matters...It's all about the music.
Life is better with music,
This is such a wonderful channel thank you Gene for your hard work and honesty.the one place to go for the truth in audio
Excellent analysis , much appreciated . Emotiva was an excellent value but their strategy changed.
I agree, that’s why I’m glad I bought a couple of the gen 2 amps. I’m not too excited about their new amps.
waiting for the 100,000 subs video :)
Always love your honest reviews Gene... thank you!
I had a Madrigal Proceed AMP 2 ($1700), from about 20 years ago, used to drive Martin Logan SL3s. A long while back I did borrow an Audio Research Hybrid Tube power amp ($5500) and Mark Levinson power amp ($6000) from the store for a long weekend. I really could not tell the difference so ended up not upgrading. I recently got Legacy Audio Aeris speakers (with Wavelet preamp). I brought the various components of my system to the factory for a demo. What I found was that the AMP 2 sounded lousy compared to the Legacy Audio Powerblocks. Legacy Audio offered to customize the speakers to include 2 extra 350 watt class-D mono block amps (for the mid-woofer, mid-range, tweeter, and super-tweet) in addition to the 2 500 watt class-D mono blocks used to drive the 2 subwoofers. I now have a 3-way active configuration with 3 balanced cables going from the Wavelet to each speaker. The designer mentioned this configuration would allow him to more easily control the individual drivers to get much better time alignment. Sounds fantastic. I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised that these power amps were very reasonably priced (about $2400 for the extra power amp modules - without needing a separate box to be in). Each speaker essentially has 1650 watts of power amplification.
Before viewing this video, my guess was that class D was going to take over. I think the days of massive back breaking, heat bricks will soon give way to super efficient, lightweight amps that sound just as good as any A/B amps. Thanks for letting us know that not all amps sound the same, and the law of diminishing returns does kick in pretty quickly, thanks to budget friendly brands like Emotiva/Monoprice. I recently upgraded to Parasound amps because I wanted 2 ch music to sound a little more refined. Coupled with some Martin Logan motions, they create a very nice synergy. But for movies, my older Emotivas were just as good.
The Law of Diminishing Returns seems to kick in at just over $6500, though. :)
@@kingdavid7571 Is that 6,5k for the amp itself or the entire rig?
If you meant only the amplifier I'd say you could half that - just as our friend said up there in the vid.
Already a decade ago there were a few brands that offered super value for the money at a price point less than 2000 buckaroos. Since then the price for really good stuf have dropped.
( I bought my main components a decade ago and paid a lit'l too much by the standards today, but tubes sound so much better for metal and for that musicality matters a lot more than perfect measurements - then spent too much again tube rolling.)
The choice that remain is brand, looks, power (how loud you wish to play your growl metal), functionality (is there a need to play 24 bit PCM or FLAC or stream your growl metal from online sources) and in my case, musicality and and how fast it the growl metal get me headbanging.
@@andersforsgren3806 It also depends on your listening space. I've got a very small living room HiFi set up so don't need a Amplifier with loads of watts. Got a sweet 50watt class AB amplifier coming next week.
Only cost £173 with some promo code and discounts and not a brand name. But I bet it will perform as good as a brand name 50watt £1000 amplifier which bumps the prices up sky high just for the name.
Got good reviews online and on CZcams and I already have a very high performance power chord and excellent rca interconnects I will use with it. If you do proper research you can get great performing AB amplifiers for bargains these days.
What amp did you have before the parasound?
@@williammorales8204 Emotiva (Gen 1-3) Gen 2 was best, imo, Outlaw 7000x, Monolith 7x, and NAD M12. The Parasound Halo amps are still my favorite. I can't say it's superior to class D specs, but whatever color they add is warm and smooth, but still transparent.
So right on Gene, and thanks for the distinction on the "Sound Reinforcement". That is for a different customer. I had put together custom audio for both Sound reinforcement and 2 channel listening and for theater rigs too. Heresy will be my Crown XLS-1002 in my bedroom. Driven by an Anthem AVM-30 pre pro and analog tape and digital. It works for me in my bedroom studio environment. Is it better than my Linear Power Supply amps I had? Like my Acurus, or Emotiva, or Krell, or Rotel? Well no. Even without test gear I know what I have now vs. then, but the crazy thing is that I am happy with what I have. I think we need to understand POU. There is no wrong answer in your setup. Purpose of Use for the acronym challenged. For the most cases most aren't going to know the difference from an SMPS vs. a Linear Supply. You and I would though. That known going in, I am not power supply myopic. But given my way sure I love Linear Supplies, always will. But my economy of scale at this point is fine with the Crown, but I am looking for another Acurus A-250 or similar. But the sky has not darken and the oceans has not risen because I use a Crown. My favorite still for the money was but it is impossible to find was the Rotel RB-1090 2 channel amplifier. Insane money when I see one. I loved the sound because it didn't sound like the lesser Rotel's.
Gene could I contact you and discuss a possible association with you and your team. I love what you are doing and frankly, no one else is even close to being in touch with what is going on, how you are helping people stay honest with themselves by keeping them informed. I want to do the same. I have started and want to start my Broadcast very soon. Thank you for all you do Gene.
time and resources are so limited. I wish I could do more and have more help tbh. feel free to email me info@audioholics.com to tell me more.
Andrew Robinson is using the crown xls series to and is very impresst with the bang for the bucks they deliver. He has done two reviews and one „there is no magic in the audio industry“. I can only tell everyone to look at his channel.
@@BoondockSaint0310 Andrew Robinson is not a technical person nor has he ever measured or analyzed an amp in his life AFAIK. That Crown amp has very mediocre SNR when you translate the 500 watt rating to 1 watt (78dB). The best consumer amps are a good 12db better. In addition, the Crown amp is very likely not load invariant so sound will depend on speaker load.This is why Harman uses Levinson amps in their blind speaker testing despite also owning Crown.
@@Audioholics -- The Crown XLS amps provide excellent "bang for the buck." Harman prefers to use Levinson amps because of marketing optics and the fact that somebody in the market for a high-end JBL is probably "not a technical person" and will decide beforehand that a $300 power amp can't possibly good enough for the $3000+ speakers they're considering.
Here's an honest and astute evaluation of a Crown XLS-1502 by somebody who is most assuredly "a technical person" with state of the art test gear. In his view, "Signal to noise ratio is decent but again, nothing high-end about it" -- which makes sense for a very powerful and generously featured power amp that was purchased for $349 with free shipping.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-crown-xls-1502-amp.6062/
@@editorjuno no doubt that's the best $300 can buy but it's not SOTA. Harman uses Levinson not just for marketing. They do it bc it's load invariant and low noise unlike tje Crown which is designed for sound reinforcement.
Years ago I could tell the difference, These days, I just want the instrument to sound good. I find to still be partial to tube amps. Enjoyed the video.
I've had a Roksan Caspian M2 Amp and CD player for the last 9 years, they still sound great to me. Although the Roksan Caspian M2 amp is only 85 watts per channel it can deliver high current, up to 60 amps I understand, and has no trouble with difficult loads I Have a small listening room and the KEF Ls50's I use sound great in there. I had a Parasound Halo before preferring and buying the Roksan. Thanks for the honest info, just subscribed to your channel, interesting stuff.
Ive always used Arcam AVRs im waiting for you to review them. I would like to know how they stack up against the popular brands.
I wanna see the new reviews on the Arcam AV40! Vs competitors 🤞🤞🤞
Top ten audio products of the 2010s?
Huge fan of my Emotiva XPA-5 for home theatre gen 1 it was when Emotiva was huge bang for the buck. Makes me smile when I am listening to anything movies or music
Yup, same here XPA-5 Gen 1. Forgot how heavy the beast is too when I took it out to clean it for the first time since buying it about a month ago.
I have an old (15 years maybe) Boulder 500AE stereo amp with some weird op-amp design. Via a pair of JM Labs Mini Utopia speakers, it sounds pretty good. Very revealing, smooth, great bass. Can't complain. Bought it second hand via my dealer for a steal and it's been rock solid since.
Do older amplifiers sound better, that's the real question.
EVMYT I would think the older stuff has higher distortion and less headroom. Most of the old amps I’ve used sound good till you go past half way and it gets noisy. Plus capacitors go bad or get leaky making them less efficient leading to deterioration in the sound. They look cool but unless it’s had a full restoration I won’t touch them anymore. Besides the killer deals you used to find are now over inflated, even the boat anchors. There’s a lot of good deals out there for new amps. Yamaha makes great quality good sounding amps and the price is doable for most modest budgets.
@@jsdhesmith2011 Yep the caps in my Adcom GFA555 amp have leaked, bigtime!
The Crown Core2s amps sound great and beat many 'audiophile' amps in musicality, detail and dynamics.
I run a whole rack of Crown amps. Love them.
Bill Crane ... Heard so much about the Crown amps. Am really keen to try them. It’s cheap.
What have you compared them with?
Which "audiophile" amps have you compared them to?
There are MANY lines of crown amps. From very cheap to really expensive. Radically different machines.
I've got a Crown amp and preamp from the sixties!
I’ve had some really expensive audio, but my older Audio Physics Virgos (blown woofers) were driven by a Bel Labs MK5 and Conrad Tube Premier 17LS Pre-amp. However my wife prefers the sound of my old Adcom GFA 555 II driven by an Acurus Pre-amp on my new Klipsch RP 8000Fs (& Klipsch 15 inch sub). So now I have all my high end cables on my cheaper stuff and it’s more satisfying than my high end system was. . So now I’m in a quandary what to do.
Nice Video, Gene. it's well explained with data/graph backing up. Which city are you guys based by the way?
Test benches never lie, but manufacturers and some reviewer's ears do.
Regardless of what any instrumentation may say we like what we like. It may not be theoretically perfectly sound either. The equipment I use is not the best. Far from it, but I'm happy with it. And in the end that's all that really counts.
Test benches can mislead when they measure audio factors with no regard to proven audibility. Just because a product measures better does not necessarily mean it sounds better. There is a graph in the video that shows an amp that has a 2dB boost at 20KHz under certain conditions. Can anyone hear such a difference playing actual content? I highly doubt it, but the amp is dismissed because of it.
@@gregworrel2623 I don't know what anyone else can hear. I know on average a human being cannot hear upwards of 2% distortion though. Which is an astronomical amount with today's amplifiers. People are such total morons with what they think they can hear, or see. Most don't know their assholes from their elbows. In tests people like volume. Take two identical signals with one louder than the other and people will favor the louder one. It'll "sound" better to them. The more the merrier I suppose? But an audiophile won't just say it is louder, they'll use all kinds of floral expression to convey their experience. It is airer, has more definition, separation blah blah. It's louder you fool!
That is one of the ways that people fool themselves. The difference can be less than .5dB which people do not register as louder, but they usually prefer it. Other ways people deceive themselves can be lumped in as cognitive bias. Anyone who sees the McGurk effect knows that hearing cannot be trusted. You sometimes hear what you expect to hear and the influences are subconscious. The coaching effect is one such bias, when one enthusiast tells another how much better such and such sounds. That is happening right here in this video.
@@gregworrel2623 double blind testing is the only reliable method when it comes to subjective audio appreciation. I actually like boomy bass. It is just a personal preference of mine.
The scariest thing isn’t the snake oil salesman. It’s the half science sounds legit salesman selling extra virgin snake oil. Yes amplifiers measures differently but does the frequency response measure differently when they drive speakers when not clipping. The answer is NO. $10000 says this guy can’t differentiate level matched non clipping amplifiers.
You should actually listen to different amps. Very sad if you can’t hear any differences in sound character.
@@MrKom20 Modern amplifiers are a solved problem with distortion levels below the level of audibility and ruler-flat frequency response within the range of human hearing. Saying that one amplifier sounds "smoother" or "more composed" than another is pure snake oil nonsense. The real reasons amps can sound different is if they are not level-matched to within .1dB or if one is over-driven to clipping. So more powerful amps can sound better than less powerful amps at a volume level that causes the lower powered one to clip. The only other reasons amps will sound different are the same reasons people claim different speaker wires and interconnects sound different, subconscious bias. Gene is selling extra virgin snake oil, with his flawed observations backed with irrelevant measurements and engineering guesswork.
Greg Worrel Why are you listening to audio reviews if you’re already so knowledgeable? Please go back to your sterilized world of perfectly solved zero distortion and let the real audio lovers listen to different equipment. These differences are not always subtle. Have you heard any tube amplifiers? Second order harmonics? Do you actually listen or prefer to read graphs? I don’t know why I’m bothering here but I feel bad that people can be so small minded. If anyone else has bothered to keep reading, please experiment with different amps and decide for yourself.
@@MrKom20 Small minded is thinking the world is flat and ignoring all evidence to the contrary. That is what you are doing. Watch a video about the McGurk effect. That is not subtle either but it highlights the strong effects of psycho-acoustics on what we think we hear. Spending thousands of dollars on an illusion means that people are being ripped off. Many here are unaware of ABX testing and the $10,000 amplifier challenge. I hoped that Gene would tell the truth in this video, but he is either so steeped in the audiophile BS that he continues to spread the same nonsense, or he knows that his CZcams views, review samples, and other revenue streams would be compromised if he told the truth. That is what is truly sad. Watch this video about the McGurk effect and then tell me you have confidence in what you are hearing when you compare different amps. czcams.com/video/2k8fHR9jKVM/video.html
Good info.
My stereo amp is a 34 year-old Exposure pre-power combo bought new for £1600 in about 1986. It's the oldest component in my KEF Reference 3 + Primare system and I'm looking to change it in the next couple of years. Primare has a nice but expensive Pre - Class D Power combo, but there are others out there.
You remind me of Matt Moreman from Obsessed Garage in your meticulous attention to detail and actual results vs specs but for audio vs automotive. Good job.
There is very little correlation between sound quality and price when it comes to audio electronics. No you can’t make a great sounding 100w amp for 50 dollars, but you can mass produce one for hundreds of dollars. A few thousand will buy a state of the art one. 10’s and 100’s of thousands will buy you beautiful casework and the envy of other audiophiles but literally nothing in improved fidelity.
That's rediculous
Look up the Big SET
Tube amps , thier Incredible and hugely better .
I wish you were right , bu thiers always crown ....
@@dednside5229 Hugely better because some people say they are. Described as better using attributes that can't be quantified. Most of high end audio is an elaborate fraud.
@@dednside5229 Yep, just call me names and spout more opinions. That's proof enough for me.
@@rwortman2
I dont need to convince you ....
If you want high end gear thiers ways and tricks to get it like I do .
Or...just discount it as audio snobbery .
In the end it's the listening experience
Do the research.
Maybe grab an old Kenwood DC unit cheap and go from there .
I found my first one in the garbage and repaired it , I was 12 .
Hardoff Japan,
Ship using tenso , start with the kenwood L line late 70's
Dont forget to re-cap
Re set factory bias
Oh yeah, AR-M1 kick ass for cheap
Ask Mark Levinson
@@dednside5229 I don't know how old you are but I've been messing around with audio equipment for over 40 years. I have a pretty nice VPI turntable, a pair of PSB Imagine T2 speakers and an additional matching center and surrounds for movies. I have separate two channel and surround setups that only share the front LR speakers and the power amp they are attached to. In addition to my main system I have three other stereo systems in two garages and a living room with a mix of newer and vintage gear some of which I repaired myself. I also do some unpaid work in live sound, recording, and mixing. It is my personal experience that the sound differences between properly designed electronic gear is largely imaginary unless one of them is introducing known distortion. It is also my personal experience that a good quality professional audio amplifier sounds as good as an audiophile brand one at a significantly lower price. I found this out by simply trying one that I had purchased for a project I was doing for a local theater group. I had it in the house so curiosity made me try it out. The only thing bad about it was the fan noise. I then purchased a better one with a whisper quiet fan that never comes on unless I am playing it so loud that you couldn't hear it anyway. It sounds great and has twice the power of my old amp. I sold my audiophile amp and spent the money more motorcycle gear.
Electrically, its much harder for an amplifier terminated into a dummy load than in a dynamic load.
I love my Yamaha B-2. It's 44 years old, but that sound is very unique. I don't know all the specs and test results of it, but I will never sell it. It made my Cerwin Vega E-315s sound way better! No other amp has ever done that. Yes, I know that CVs aren't audiophile or revealing speakers. But that's my testimony. I paid $120 for the B-2 as junk here in Japan. It just needed a cleaning. Works perfectly fine now. Score!
Great episode man!
Must be nice to be able to bankroll tests that cost nearly 20 grand and have 50 grand speakers. 😅 Way out of touch for me.
that is nothing check out Jays Audio Lab
Every amp sounds the same
Thanks "Audioholics"! Very good video!
Diminishing returns is a very real thing! I've own a few really good amplifiers. Starting out with an NAD 2200, Parasound HCA-3500, Classe CA-150 and CAP-151, to a BAT VK-500. Unfortunately, I never got the speed and engagement of a Spectral Audio DMA-180.
I eventually settled for my Sansui AU D11ii, albeit with a slightly higher noise floor but with engaging and exciting leading edge transients and dynamics from my faithful KEF 105/3S. Which were missing from all the above mentioned?
Thank you for this video, super informative. I do have a question: For DIY subwoofers many use a Behringer amp, or other pro-amp, which I got the distinct feeling you don't really like. Do you think these amps are OK in this application and not for full range speakers or are there better options?
I went to an audio presentation in NYC back in the eighties. Nelson Pass was there talking about his Threshold amplifiers. He basically did tours to promote the sales of his premium Threshold amps. Nelson gave a lecture and in the middle volunteered that while his amps were great, there were others with less cost with the same performance. In other words better value.
I'll never forget that in the middle of his lecture he told us that the Threshold amps were very well suited to the carriage trade. His exact words! Overbuilt and overpriced. Great amps, but you could buy the same performance for less dollars. Long live honest Nelson!
I have the Outlaw 5000 it does a fabulous job in my small living room. Though I would like a bit more power. Once I can justify upgrading then I'll do my homework . I enjoy your vast knowledge, Thank you Gene!
I bought a pair of Rowland 301's on the used market, what I would consider a very well designed Class D amp. Back in the day they were about 30k, they deliver rich harmonics, which is something I value highly as well as a huge sound stage. They are also over 15 years old, but over the long-term represent good value for many hours of listening pleasure.
Amplifiers do sound very different one from the other . Thank you for a refreshing course on amplifier design and why they sound different from a technical stand point .
Great Video, just curious if you had the chance to review D-Sonic class D amps? Thank you
My ten year plus Outlaw 770, 200 watts seven channel amplifier sounds fantastic matched to my klipsch RF7 speakers and SVS sub. It's a Ninety pound beast.
Gene love your content very informative. as you used a Classe amp for comparison have you ever or would you review their Sigma Class D series amplifiers? I moved to it from a Rotel Class D and it was night and day to my ears. Curious what the measurements would be.
Great video. Now I'm waiting for the video on amplifier feedback.
I had over 20 different amplifiers, not included receivers, i am very satisfied with my marantz mp7000
I have a Carver av705x that I bought used in 2003 5 channels 125 watts channel all channels 20- 20k. Runs cool and is a beast and absolutely quiet when I turn it on. I can turn the volume up and put my ear up to the speaker and barely a hiss. I still have it today. It was a $1200 amp
Hi Gene! I am still loving your work. Please, please can you measure one of the cheap pro audio amplifiers? The Behringer A800 or the Crown XLS 1502 both seem pretty good to my ears!
Great video! Just great! I agree with what he says. This and his cable video are among the best in this crazy landscape of audio videos on youtube.
I am an Audiophile and own a design integration company that does mostly Professional production facilities and performing arts facilities. During Covid we setup a, Mark Levinson, Bryson, Lab Gruppen and Linea Research and did comparisons on Dynaudio, Totem, B&W, Westlake, and RBH speakers. The 8 channel Linea Research surprised the fool out of us. It sounded amazing and had full professional DSP. The Lab Gruppen was equally impressive. It’s always good to learn that there is more to learn! We will definitely be specifying the professional multichannel for future installs. It’s a no brainer.
What would be your hands down recommendation for the best budget 9+ channel amplifier? Monoprice? Outlaw? Emotiva? Something else?
Hi Gene! I totally share your opinion on the class D design (Brunos Hypex). I would though love to see you debunk or confirm through you strict measurement methods the use of Crown XLS pro amps in the home audio. I've seen multiple "high profile" audiophiles use those amps and I would hope that the used design of the "drive core" is a good one for home use. Thanks!
As with all Audoholics videos, great content. What was the Blu Ray you reference?
i love my emotiva amps 2(A-300) 1(A-500) in the living room 1(A-800) running my bedroom all off of 2(Pioneer 701) and klipsch speakers
Great video. I really enjoy listening to guys like you who are about the facts and no BS.
I've changed now to a new pre/amp combination using Class D (NUPRIME AMG PRA and AMG STA) and I'm very happy with the transparency, speed and detail I got at this price level. Thanks!
Hi, my personal favourite are the old Parasound like HCA 2205 or 1206. They are very powerful and have a very nice sound. The speakers are very controlled and the high damping factor is noticeably better than with today's competitors.