Actual cost of owning a Cabri G2 EXPLAINED
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- I break down the numbers for you of the actual cost of ownership for a Guimbal Cabri G2. I look at variable costs and fixed costs. I add in the cost of ownership of the aircraft, and then break it down into a per hour total ownership cost.
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I was an apprentice mechanic at a helicopter company. I wondered why the owner kept timed-out rotor blades. Then one day Bell announces these range of blades have another 500 hours on them. Suddenly these expensive parts are serviceable again!
Awesome video as usual. According to Jason Hill from Hill Helicopters, most private owners use their copter for ~200hrs/yr which equates to $650 TCO per hr. Leasing it back to a company such as BCH or finding some buddies to jointly own and operate the Cabri G2 would be a way to bring up the utilization rate of the aircraft. However, your partners need to be absolutely trustworthy... Keep up the great vids. PS: How may G2's are in the field by now on a ww basis? Per wikipedia it's just ~200 by 2017. Will the development cost ever amortize that way? With the HX50 en route the market will fragment even more.
I guess I'II be sticking with flying my RC helicopters.😜
I don't think I've ever seen a cost breakdown presented like this by a training unit. Awesome. It really helps the student because people tend to have that little voice in the back of their head saying "Man this is expensive - he must be making a fortune off me". Not so much. Anyway, I would hope you're making at least a 10% net margin on those machines.
@Justice Elias Instablaster =)
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@Riley Korbin it worked and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D
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@Justice Elias glad I could help xD
Mischa - as usual great stuff. This is very interesting and it's nice that you take the time to break this all down for us. Cheers mate!
Really good insight Mischa - hope you're all keeping well and looking forward to seeing some flights when restrictions are lifted.
Love your videos! Great knowledge!! Thank you!!
Nice video!
I think there may be a typo for the 250 hour price point. 250h x $120 + $103,863 = $133,863 -> $133,863 / 250h = $535,45 per hour
Very good explainanation, really enjoy your you tube clips.
Such a helpful video! Thank you.
Very nice breakdown and your conclusion also holds true for Machine Tools and other capital assets as well...
This is super cool data!
We all wished that most operators would share that information. Every time I ask a TOC to an operator (without insurance, crew and fuel) and all give different values ... crazy.
Thank you !!
@pilot yellow This is great overview of fixed and variable cost for the helicopter. Will you consider making a video on what you do to keep the utilization high for your helicopters (marketing, partnerships with other companies, etc.)? Keeping those helicopters flying is key to lower the hourly cost.
Thankyou so much for this information Mischka
Okay, out of my price range. Thanks.
Mine too
Yeah, housing costs are through the roof where I live, and I could still buy a small house with this kind of money. Seeing as I don't even own a house, I'm gonna pass on buying a helicopter.
Mischa EXCELLENT financial heads up in a short amount of time! You and your team are STELLAR! 🚁💸
Just started my PPL on that aircraft !! amazing helicopter !
Another great video. I am slowly working my way through all of them. I am planning to learn from you one of these days. Working on the funds now.
A question about the Bladder and seatbelt replacement. That means that the bladder is roughly $10,000? And, that includes labor?
Thank You! Great Video!
Mischa, I really enjoy your videos and appreciate your opinion. Could you please address the ultra light and experimental helicopters such as the Mini 500, Mosquito, Rotorway etc.? I would love to know your thoughts about these. I come to you from the middle of nowhere so my access to a helicopter is very limited so I am looking for something I could afford to have in my garage and fly for fun.
wow great information and would love to do it with the time needed to fly
Thanks for the explanation, we need an explanation on the cost insurance for Robinson R 44 In Canada please?
Who is this Mischa Guy!! LOL Man I love these videos.
Very interesting much appreciated
Uploaded 4 sek ago. Already liked. Exectly what i wondered about this helicopter.
Thank you for the insight in to a different world of flying. I fly fixed-wing and pay the bills on an elderly-but-serviceable Beech Musketeer. My insurance is about $CDN1500 a year, a far cry from what you pay. The engine (O-320) is on condition, 1300 hours/28 years SMOH. Some day I'll have to make some hard decisions...
how much does 1 hour of ownership cost Beech?
great info
Thanks for sharing this information and your candidness.
I think you might be overestimating the fixed annual costs. If you look at the ownership cost, you can add just expected depreciation and interest. So, instead of $93k/year, it'd be .06*390k or $23,400. Add any expected depreciation over 5 years. As you said, depreciation won't be very much because a maintained helicopter will hold a lot of value. The maintenance costs are already built in separately. Say you can sell it for 300k after 5 years. Then, total ownership is $23.4k + $18k/year in depreciation (assuming you can sell it for $300k after 5 years) = $41.4k. This would put the 1000 hour operating cost at $120+41.40 = $161.40!! Sounds much better!
This video is f'ing amazing... i'm looking to purchase a Carbi and i was very curious about REAL numbers. Thanks for sharing.
I was curious about real numbers too, which is why I'm disappointed that the video was just him reading the Guimbal estimated costs from here: www.guimbal.com/downloads/cabri-g2-operating-cost-usa.pdf
@@brameldm yeah, i'm sure he can comment on his real costs, unless his numbers are so low that his students would feel ripped off.
It might be harder for him to say given that they do maintenance in house, as opposed to going elsewhere where you can just add up the invoice amounts.
good break down
Nice information video, thank you. Just curious,I live in the US and I was just wondering if you think the Cabri market will be hotter if the blades rotated counterclockwise like many US based helicopters? Have you heard any news of this as well? Thanx again
Thank you for taking the mystery out of aviation costs.
And like the other guy said...I'll stick to my rc aircraft. :)
Any further information on when Guimbal is going to come out with a 4-5 seater?
Excellent!
Im in NZ and did initial training in a Cabri. Great machine and with awesome instructor who had 24k hours. Unfortunately over here in the last 12 months insurance has skyrocketed, nearly doubled. My flying school pulled the pin and shut down, others likely to do the same. Talked to people with amateur built machines like Safaris and they have stopped insuring them.
Very interesting. Which company did you do training with and in which location?
grevis101 sorry to hear that Mate! Is it just the insurance cost? I’ve worked with some very good companies, one in Switzerland and the other in US.
How you will differentiate on pre-owned & new one ..
Secondly if m going for the new one , how long it will take to have delivery ..?
Hello Mischa! This might not be the appropriate video to ask, but I was wondering about your opinions regarding flying a european vs. american helicopters. Particularly with regards to the different direction of rotation of the main rotor, since this will affect how you compensate the counter-torque in the pedals. What are your thoughts on this? Maybe other viewers would also be interested in your answer.
Best regards, I really enjoy your channel!
Ernesto
Back in the past when I owned a Cessna 150 Aerobat, it was maintained by a flight school who hired it out when I wasn't using it. They got more flying hours out of it than I ever did as my job meant that I was flying or being flown in other aircraft. So whilst I paid the upfront cost of the aircraft, all I paid for subsequently was fuel, lubricants, charts and landing fees [when landing elsewhere]. Does that sort of "leaseback" arrangement work in Canada?
arun sharma great question!
Your an un egotistical great guy that is very well versed. Love your videos. If I was going to learn it would be with you..
Does syndicate ownership make a difference, as the hours of use would be higher and the costs distributed across the syndicate?
I went experimental. I purchased a safari 400 for 160g, but i have to put it together. It's quite satisfying to see coming together
Hey mischa, i was wondering if you own a ppl (H) can you operate a light sport helicopter with the same rules as a cabri etc ?
surely reduces ownership and operating costs
thanks for those videos
How about Embraer Helicopters? did you have any experience with that type of helicopter?
So now that there's almost no flying I bet you're pretty happy you have a few Cabris instead of Robinsons as they don't depreciate when not in use.
Nice info, I would train in a Cabri or Hughes 300 better than Robinson.
Hi Micha
Thanks for that overview. One thing I wonder, you say that margins are really low. Are there that many helicopter training companies around that you have to offer such low prices? Thanks a lot and fly safely.
I think you have to keep them low to attract students, otherwise it becomes unrealistic for people to pay so much for a career that isn't going to make you rich.
Operating costs and depreciation are two different things. I operate my R44 for the same cost per hour as you have quoted for the G2, and figured the same way you figured it for the G2. Thus the G2 is not a good value per hour. BUT...if I tried to sell the R44 at any point in it's life OTHER than immediately coming out of a 12 year overhaul, yes, my hull value relative to it's original cost would be less than it might be for a G2. Operating costs (fixed and variable) vs. depreciation (resale value) = apples and oranges. I'll take four seats over two for the same operating cost per hour any day of the week.
WRONG
@@APenNameAndThatA-oq7gt Do you own a helicopter? Bet you don't. You have no idea what you are talking about. There were 16 G2's in the USA at the end of 2016. At the end of 2022 there were 44 on the FAA registry. That's a sales rate of less than 5 helicopters per year. If you don't believe me, then believe everyone else in the USA that buys helicopters and can figure the finances. The G2 is an R22 for the cost of an R44. No matter how sexy or "advanced" they are they don't make economical or practical sense for schools or private owners. Robinson delivered 244 helicopters of all types in 2021--they are CRUSHING Guimbal. You can't beat the price/performance/cost-to-own & operate a Robinson and the market knows it.
Great 👍
I'll just fast forward to the end bit
Do you guys do lease backs or know anyone who does?
Do you wish you had the Cabri when you did your around the world trip?
How many hours can you expect to get out of it before u have to scrap it
Is there a 4 seat version?
How much does a cost to get a private pilot license helicopter
When will Cabri be out with models competing with the R44 and R66?
Their CEO saids it's in the pipe but it's a long process. I know they're also working hard on a drone version, for military navys
I have a question. If I wanted to fly 150 hour on a cabri G2, would it be cheaper to SFH it @£390 GDP or buy a Cabri and sell it on after a few hundred hours? Would a cabri lose £58,000 in value after 150 were flown on it?
Howdy Micha, today all two Runways closed in Munich ! As well terminals ! Yes I'm from Germany, what you think how many folks can fly to your flight school ?
Thanks very much Micha appreciate you a very nice Pilot it's amazing your comments.
Hmmm.... sounds like the G2 is the way to go.... I wonder if I can convince my flight school to switch? Lol. But then again, switching out 9 R22s might be a bit spendy....
Question for you: Why does the tail wing angle downward on Black Hawk and Apache helicopters ? Can the pilot control the angle in flight ?
Can only comment on the Blackhawk but would assume the same for the Apache. The rear stabiliser(tail wing) is an active flight component which will move up and down controlled by the flight computer depending mainly on the air speed of the aircraft. Fully down in the hover and slow flight to minimize the amount of nose high attitude and starts to move up (flatter angle) when transitioning into fwd flight to keep the aircraft in level flight trim. There is a manual override sw in the cockpit for the stab movement by the pilots, but this is only used when the automatic system fails. If the system fails, u will get an audio warning in the headset and the stab will stop moving
Never Flown one, but keep hearing about this Lag in the Tail Rotor compared too a 22? with the Fenestron design?
There is not a lag. All fenestron tail rotors have a non-linear response so that much more travel is required to get to the effective range and this is the difference.
What about Bell 400-500 series?
Very Great Video ,, I hate posting a bad post , BUT I do know major being a AME R class , 20K hrs flight ,, Fly Notars 4me
One thing I've learned - whatever a manufacturer quotes in probable costs, and expected expenditure, double it and you'll get close.
Hey Mischa, curious which insurance provider(s) you work with. I know the devil is in the details, but I've been quoted much higher (3-5x) for insurance than you mentioned in the video.
Hi from France ...., thank you , very interesting ... i understand the cabri is a very good machine for professional ... to train ... but what you thing for a private pilote who want fly for pleasure only 70 h per year ? and what you think about the R44 is not the best choice concerning financial point of view ?
take care and fly safe
Monnier Edouard cheapper renting no headaches.
Johann Zitz not so easy to find unit for rent ... specially in France !
Get an experimental helicopter like the safari 400
I'd love to hear your thoughts on why there is more value and safety in the Cabri.
This video on his top 10 features of the Cabri can give you an idea: czcams.com/video/7CWYv4WKLWA/video.html
Regarding safety,:
1.) Fully articulated rotor head -> no risk of mast bumping
2.) Fenestron -> less hazard for surrounding people and reduced chance of tail rotor strikes
3.) Crash attenuating seats
(mainly in comparison to the R22, used for flight instruction)
@@bernhardreinel thanks dude
I think you would say how much they cost?
I think what scares a lot of would be pilots away from helicopters is the hourly cost of training if you are an average person you have to get the commercial license in order to fly on somebody’s else’s dime. For myself I am colour blind so I can’t hold a commercial license, so fixed wing was the only way I could fly and afford it. I started to fly at copac in 1978 when the cost was $35 dollars a hour wet
5:51 Wrong calculation or typing mistake at the editing of the video. At 250 hrs/yr its 535 $/hr, not 635 $/hr
Great breakdown….but still cant afford to own either! Yet….
How many students per year do you need to pay for one cabri?
In Italy, students spend sixty thousand up to eighty thousand euros for sixty hours of flight, calculate the costs per hour of the helicopter and you will have the final income
What I've learned from the video:
1,000 hrs annually...
1,000 hrs / 12 months equals 83.33333333333333 hrs per month
, the rotorcraft needs to fly to be able to pay the bills...
83.33333333333333 hrs per month * Operating costs at 223 per hr. equals 18,583.33333333333 total per month
...
18583.33333333333 minus 7,539.79 payment ( 390k 5 yrs @ 6% APR ) on helicopter equals 11043.54333333333 saved for variable and fixed costs.
223 per hr is a low cost because most helicopter schools charge more than this to fly...
My cost on a R44 to learn on is about 580 dollars per hour.
So, Pilot Yellow is leaving out what he is taking home per month.
But, I think I understand the numbers.
Pilot Yellow, All of your numbers are great. However, no credit union or bank here in the USA will finance a 390,000 US Dollar rotorcraft to you without the financial statement to back up your numbers. So, a normal citizen like myself couldn't finance a Cabri G2. It sucks too because I understand the numbers.
At the end of the day, if you don't have the financial statement to handle these numbers, you can't have a rotorcraft personally... !!! That's the elephant in the room.... !!!
83.33333333333333 hrs per month need to pay bills on the rotorcraft divided by 20 workdays per month
equals 4.166666666666667 hrs of flight per workday on the rotorcraft.
Basically, the Cabri G2 needs to fly about 4 to 5 hrs per workday to pay the bills on it, if it's 100% financed.
I arrived at my numbers from a 251 workday year.
I'm sure the Helicopter will sit around in the winter months, so you would have to double up on hours in the Spring and Summer months.
With a large enough down payment, you could probably make the flight time on the craft per workday too 2 to 3 hrs per workday then double it in the spring and summer to 4 to 6 hrs per workday.
You would need probably 5 to 10 students to pull it off throughout each month. I might be high on the students each month.
What is indian cost cabri G2
so after 5 years it's worthless? if not, what could you sell it for w/ 5000 hours, 5 years old?
Cost should also depend on how often you fly. Less than (1) once a week/month.
bottom of the costings per hour.
Am not money short by any means but believe me I wouldn't buy a chopper unless I couldn't do with out one.
A good example would be if I had at least two different land development sites and each site should be atleast 6 hours away from my house.
Each project should be giving me at least £1500000 only then would I look at buying a Helicopter.
Favorite helicopter is hard to find in the used market=&
Didn't calculate airport fees and hanger fees
Students pay for that or they are factored in for charter or utility hiring costs and he did mention building rent which is hangar fees
What dollar$ are we talking about?
They need to make a g4 with fuel injection and a turbo
Asset cost is wrong: 6% pa of 390k is not 90k but 23k annually or 115k over 5 years...
$$$, which is why I prefer the xplane 11 Cabri in VR.
Few can afford this baby
So flying 750 hours per year would mean your expense would be 193,863.00 per year? For at least the first five years. Out of my range.
And I thought my farming margins were tight
Since these numbers are all USD how does changes in currency exchange rates weigh in?
I don't believe this is a sensible look at costs. You have taken the whole cost of the helicopter and divided it over 5 years. This would assume a 5 year old Cabri is worthless - is it ? I am guessing at used values but I would imagine the annual fixed costs would be half of what is stated.
I believe it's broken down in a way that the hourly cost is able to pay for the monthly payment to the bank. If he priced in the resale value. The hourly cost would drop below the monthly payment.
@@gioacevedo5 Well he is allowing $520K to be paid over 5 years surely you would own it at that point - question is what is it worth at 5 years and the more hours you have done the less the value. But if you sold it for say $250K then your actual fixed annual cost would have been approx $50K per year
@@questions6180 correct, its higher because hes paying 6% interest over 5 years. But I think he's implying that he doesn't plan to sell it. So the hourly cost will drop once its paid off. But he's giving his CURRENT hourly cost. Because as a business owner you can not manage your accounting thinking about how much you will sell it for. His hourly costs have to pay the Bills and still make profit. But you're correct in the fact that If he pays it off or sell it, his over head will drop, there fore hourly cost will drop
@@gioacevedo5 Cool thanks Gio.
Also if he keeps it after that 5 years and continues operating at the same level that’s 90k a year in basically profits, if you save that cash and keep bird for 10 years and sell it for 100k you could pay cash for a new one or two. Or in situations like now you can use those profits from last year to keep paying all your bills when you can’t operate your business. It’s all about being efficient with the assets you have. If you can get it paid off in the first 5 years then you can relax a bit and if it doesn’t fly 1000 hours per year it’s not a huge deal. The point is when the bank owns it, the margins are skinny, after you own it is when you can really make some money.
The smacking......
Why, specifically, does an R-22 depreciate so rapidly over a set period of time while a Cabri doesn't over the same period of time?
If you fly it 1 hour a year, it will cost you $104,000 an hour for the first 5 years. After that, it's only $13,000 and hour.
I think it is a "mistake" to consider that after 5 years of use the aircraft is worth 0$. So the real hourly cost would drop by quite a margin...
You should really calculate only the interest. And not depending does bank own it or do you. It makes 23.4k a year at 6 %
Maybe I'll just buy a Mosquito helicopter for around $45,000.00.
Pay off $390,000 in five years??? I may as well just pay my house off instead of buying a helicopter
I guess this cost breakdown is why there is not a helicopter in everyone's yard..
Great video. The only annoyance is, in English the word "you" is already plural, there is no need to keep saying "you guys" to address the general audience.
STOP MAKING CLICKING NOISES WHEN YOU SPEAK.
Charge at 250hr/yr level and then lower till students walk thru the door.
Not a great representation of numbers. Helicopter rentals or flight school companies wants people to believe owning and operating a 2 or 4 seat heli for about 150hrs per year will cost you the budget of a space shuttle mission!!!! This is biased operating cost decription from a flight school owner point of view to justify their hourly rental charges.
No one uses them in the US.
?
Cabri is better than R22 : far more modern, more secure and on condition for the majority of compononents where Robinson imposes costly overhaul.
@@Iclo420 literally no one uses them 🤣
There isn't a single one in all of Florida or Massachusettes at any school.