"The Best Of Every Smash Move" - A Retrospective and Update
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- čas přidán 25. 04. 2024
- Smash Ultimate just keeps chugging along, with tier list shakeups still happening regularly more than half a decade after release and years after nerfs and buffs from the developers have dried up. Today let's commit to a much-requested revisit and take a new look at "The Best Of Every Smash Move," a topic I last covered on MockRock a few years back.
Original video: • The Best of EVERY Smas...
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Thanks for watching!
#SmashUltimate #Nintendo #SuperSmashBros - Hry
Thanks for watching everyone! This has been a topic I've gotten asked to revisit often and now seemed like a good time with some of the shakeups Ultimate's gone through over the last couple years, what did you think of the list?
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The lighting in this one makes it feel like you’re looking at me like a disappointed parent
If I'm trippen, tell me, but is meta knights down tilt kinda good?
@@user-uq6hi1tq1f MK Down-tilt is a really good move, I think MockRock has called it a “budget ROB down tilt” and I completely agree. It’s just that for this list, why would you ever choose it over ROB down tilt?
Surprised Corrin didn't even get an honorable mention for forward airs. In my opinion she has the absolute best in the game since it has the coverage of Shulk's and the safety of Mewtwo's plus insanely good combo potential and kill confirm potential.
"2024 is the year of Corrin" makes since considering 2024 is the year of the dragon
I'm calling it. Snake will become top 1 in 2025 😎
@@edward8380 I mean, most games end their lifespan with the most aggressively defensive characters in the top spot, so probably on to something lol.
@@edward8380 He did rise to top 4 in the most recend tier list, so it does seem like Snake is on the rise.
You know, I'm a little sad that Link's bomb recovery never got called "Windbombing," the similar technique used in Breath of the Wild speedruns for fast short range movement.
Probably because Smash Ultimate has been around since long before wind bombing.
@@Jax_Two I realize that, but still.
35:31 "It's consistency is a considerable step DOWN AIR" I love it when videos do this
Mock Rock single handily keeping my interest in smash alive.
MockRock: makes an incredibly detailed and intricate list of the best of every smash move, and follows it up a few years later with a retrospective on said list
MockRock: wanna see me do it again?
24:44
Small correction here- Sora's floaty double jump is the whole reason why IDJ works so well on him. The brief pause before he rises allows him to be lower to the ground when hitting his nairs and fairs compared to simply using them from a short hop, and this helps immensely with spacings. If he had a normal double jump, this wouldn't work, so Sora's physics are in fact part of why IDJ is so effective for him.
You're not wrong that Sora would still get more off of it than most characters and not everyone could do the loops, etc. Not exactly what I was talking about there but probably could've been clearer about that, fair point!
@@MockRockTalk
Hey, thanks for the reply!
I see what you mean, an IDJ nair with a normal jump would likely still have applications, particularly for platform extensions which are something I struggle with myself.
There's also the fact that Sora's best combos rely just as much on his fair as they do his nair, so if you only had the nair, it might be better to have normal physics for the easier platform extensions. Nair loops by themselves are a bit too inconsistent and precise outside of certain matchups. Honestly, I think it's pretty interesting how Sora's moveset and physics come together the way they do.
I’m really glad that SHADIC is popping off lately because it completely validates my long held belief that Corrin has some of the most absurd moves in this game and nobody ever talked about them 1-2 years ago apart from bringing up the Forward Smash cheese that’s not even real.
I'm curious about your thoughts on the other good Up Airs. Where is Ivysaur on your list now? I remember it was on the short list, but would you still have it that high or nah?
Always has been haha, it's one of the strongest tools in the game when it's under your opponent, but less utility-heavy than sword arcs
I'm honestly surprised that you didn't mention pac man for dash attack. That move KILLS and has ZERO end lag
perhaps this is just personal bias, but i’ve always found the best comboing up air to be incineroar. it combos for days, even with a character that’s as slow as incin. it also kills pretty reliably as well
@@MockRockTalk Also you never mentioned game and watch’s. It’s imo the best juggling tool in the game and one of the reasons why he’s so annoying, and he’s one of the slowest fallers in the game, imagine if it’s a fast faller who has it
@@MockRockTalk thoughts on gnw up air?
18:58 "Bowser Jr., as far as I'm concerned, is pretty much just better Sonic." - Mockrock, 2024
YO GUYS THEY HAVE THE SAME SIDE-B EXCEPT BOWSER. JR’S HAS ARMOR MIND BLOWN!!!!!
One of the best out-of-context quotes I’ve seen in a long time.
@@lanaturebon8204Which doesnt matter because Sonic's just beats it.
These retrospectives on older videos are honesty some of my favorite content on youtube as a whole. Im a sucker for super analytical stuff, so getting the retrospective is a cherry on top of already great content
something messed up that people don't talk about with EWGF is that it's better than safe on shield. if someone's shielding in the corner, it can just push them offstage lmao they took a defensive option and ended up offstage.
I want to point out Gandondorf’s back air, which is commonly overlooked since it’s on a character with one of, if not the worst physics in the game. The move itself, however, kills around 70, sometimes sooner against lighter characters, and if paired with a character with better physics, ledgetrumping becomes a viable kill option around 50%
Mockrock content is so rewatchable that I just rewatched you rewatching one of your videos I've already rewatched
Even if Drill Rush didn't get in, I can still say that, oh boy, there were good reasons not to. Two good reasons, to be exact. Drill Rush Lady reluctantly approves.
Ngl was expecting to see bayo side b in there. It's one of the best burst options in the entire game, spammable, hard to punish, relatively safe on shield, AND can be turned into two other side b when grounded or angled down. On top of all that, it's a combo starter that not only gives the opponent +60% almost every time, but can also kill them if positioning is good. Oh, it's also an amazing mobility and recovery tool, too. Give bayo's side b to literally any character and they 100% go up at least a tier. It's that broken. I'm surprised it didn't even make it to honourable mentions tbh
Probably because this list is about in a vacuum so it loses some combo potential on other characters. I agree its absurdly broken though, arguably Bayos best move
Nah it sucks
@@benross9174Sonic’s spindash hinges on its combo potential on top of it being an invincible burst movement tool yet it’s clearly the best despite Steve minecart also being a contender no cap
to quote esam: "pikachu can bayo-side b in to *jump back air.* " *mind blown
@@benross9174 it doesnt even need combo potential, having that mobility option is broken enough. like abk by itself just wins vs characters that have to jump like palu or rob. most characters would also be able to get at least a decent follow up.
I must say, there's something I find weirdly satisfying about how Monado Arts maintains the Neutral Special spot over Place Block. Because yeah, I agree, there will never be a character design that wouldn't be vastly improved by being able to shift your physics and power around to suit the situation or to say no to losing a stock. Place Block definitely has more of a reputation than Monado Arts, but frankly I'm terrified to think of what Steve could get up to with Monado Arts benefits.
bro imagine someone like chrom or roy with monado arts
@@meinman7591imagine tech chasing with Roy's down tilt with buster or speed and switching to smash and killing at 30 or something
Surprised Corrin f-air wasn’t at least an honorable mention. A -4 massive sword swing which combos for long enough to rack up damage at low percents and kill confirm at high percents is ridiculous, especially since it does like 11%, can combo while rising, and combos into itself.
especially considering it would be MASSIVELY abusable on a character that didn't have bottom half airspeed IMO
"You know what's faster than frame 6? Frame 4," gives off the same vibe as "You know what's funnier than 24? 25."
Incin side b in thumbmail makes me hopeful, but it's probably down tilt or up b if I had to guess what would get picked (haven't seen it yet, but most likely d tilt cause it is invincible and has combos)
Edit: my hopes were correct. The literal best move in amiibo makes the list (which is arguably the best command grab in the game aside from steves minecart)
Surprised Bowser's up smash wasn't mentioned. Crazy kill power, large hitbox, has heavy armor and invincibility, and is surprisingly safe (compared to most other smash attacks) thanks to the landing hitbox. It's excellent at punishing aerials and ledge options especially. Not nearly as flexible as some other up smashes but its power and utility definitely make it worth considering.
Also, King K. Rool's back throw definitely has a case for being the best. Not as strong as Ness's or Incineroar's, but its much lower angle makes it substantially more useful when opponents aren't at kill percent for setting up edgeguards.
bowser up smash seems largely upstaged by game and watch since it does most of the same things while being a bit faster, just a bit smaller but that head is still huge.
@@battle188883 G&W's is definitely the better overall move, I was just surprised he didn't mention it at all given how good it is. I'd argue it's at least a fair bit better than Ganon's.
I recently started playing some DDD and he may have the worst back throw in the entire game. It will essentially never combo, yet doesn't kill until around 200%
I’m surprised bowsers up tilt wasnt mentioend
Bruh you think DDD has a bad backthrow? Have you seen Roy and Chrom’s? Literally no combos, and will never ever kill. At least DDD can EVENTUALLY kill, or at the very least it sends your opponent farther than 5ft.
Another MockRock Best of video, another opportunity to hear him talk about Snake’s down air does TWENTY PERCENT
I have said it before and I will say it again:
Ivysaur's up air not being included is stupid. The move kills at 95% near the ground and has the ability to push you down, so you can prepare to juggle characters if needed.
Love the retrospective! Can't wait for the retrospective on the retrospective in two years!
Mac f-tilt is underrated. That thing *kills*
As a Mac main I can confirm
I’m a Mac main, it is ridiculous on Macs kit, don’t know if it would be good on a slower character
Mac ground moves are broken
As a peach main I 100% agree with float being the best non traditional input move for all the reasons stated, and the advanced movement tech such as jcff (jump cancel fast fall), shjcff (short hop jump cancel fast fall), and djcff (double jump cancel fast fall), that most characters could abuse to hell and back.
I just watched your worst move list yesterday and it is cool to still see you revisit list that you want to change.
Love how indepth this video is which shows how much effort and research mockrock puts into his videos. What I want to see next would be a video on what MockRock could create a moveset out of existing smash moves. Not just a collection of the best but what he would want to see, sort of how his remake on Ganondorf and Link videos were. I would have 3/4 templates each with average stats based on the types of fighters, so a (super) heavy weight, sword fighter, zoner, and jack of all trades. But the moveset is chosen from existing moves, same stats but animations are changed to fit into the character and a rule of each move can be chosen once. So you have (somewhat) creative movesets that blend well with the template they are on but not powerful enough to destroy the other characters. Don't know if this would be a main channel video or Talk video but I can dream
TLDR: I love the video and want a video that probably won't exist
Amazing Video as Always!
I like how most of the aerials are "Hm, yes, sword move good."
Accurate.
Ah yes perfect time!! Bouta beat rn.
ayo
Wtf i said eat... fuck autocorrect.
U know it's a good day when you get back from school and Mockrock uploads
As someone who mained corrin since the start of Ult, it has been SO cathartic seeing her rise to the top ❤ such an incredible set of tools
I’m glad to see the well needed retrospective update of the retrospective update video of the best moves in smash ultimate. But genuinely, the meta has changed enough to make this video still fresh and interesting.
You kinda got me back into smash and now its one of my all time favourites
yet another video to watch while i play smash keep em comin
nice, ive been binging old mockrocktalk videos lately and this appears
I literally watched the post dlc video a couple days ago
I think you're not taking into account how thin Sephiroth's F tilt is and how large his sour spots are for a move that is that slow.
It has high highs, but its lows are low.
That describes sephiroth as a character in smash, high highs and LOW lows
4:40 He acknowledges both the sour spot and frame data in this part
Honestly, Chrom takes the best f-tilt spot for me. Similar in range to Sephiroth's sweet spot f-tilt, but comes out much faster and cover a wide area above him. It deals about the same damage as Sephiroth's sweet spot, is only a bit less safe on shield, and has lesser but still very solid kill power, all without having to worry about spacing nearly as much.
I think Mock addressed both of those arguments pretty well in the video; the thinness of f-tilt is mostly made up for by the ability to angle it, which gives it additional utility as an anti-air and ledge-pressuring tool and which characters like the Belmonts and Min Min don’t get to do, and the sour spot at the tip of the move… is barely a sour spot at all, lol. The sour spot still has pretty solid damage and killpower in its own right, and hits pretty far below the ledge too as a bonus; imo the tip of the move is more of just a midpoint between the move’s other two hitboxes than anything.
@@ReitheOffbeatOtaku Its not like the tip hitbox isn't solid, but its a sizable downgrade doing only 10.8% compared to the middle's 14.4%. The real strength of Sephiroth's f-tilt is that it hits on ledge, yes, but frame 14 startup is WAY slower than Chrom's, which starts up in only 8 frames, and despite being able to angle Sephiroth's upward, it still has a sizable dead-zone above the close hitbox, an area which Chrom's covers cleanly.
Chrom can space an f-tilt on shield, and then just go for another one immediately after to cover both jump-ins or staying in place; when you space a Sephiroth f-tilt on shield, its too slow to stop any agression action your opponent may take if you do it again, and you basically just have to shield or retreat. Part of that is because Sephiroth doesn't have great anti-air options, but we're talking about moves in a vacuum, so you can't rely on other move in a character's kit to cover a move's weaknesses.
35:33 Don't think you can get away with that degree of slickness without somebody noticing
I think the only one (I’ve seen so far) that I disagree with is back air tbh, primarily because of Corrins existing. It isn’t nearly as fast as DK which cannot be overstated, that speed is vital, but I feel Corrins is just to good of an opportunity. In a vacuum that push back mechanic is a massive plus, it helps tremendously with poor recoveries, it’s very safe on shield (DK is as well of course) because of this pushback, and because of the fact it cancels fast fall it’s a really good choice for an off stage attack. DK is still an easy top 3, but for my money it’s Corrin on top
I’m surprised Snake’s grenade was not talked about for Neutral special.
Frame 1 Combo breaker, Zoning tool, and B reverse tool and that’s just the simple stuff.
I miss "the best animations " series
9:45 AY MY BOI MADE IT ON THE HONORABLE MENTIONS!
64 Kirby would've won that category no problem
Even though i have the main bias, i feel like bayo's up-b is just broken as hell.
Not only does it feel awesome to use, but it's one of the best movement options in the game, one of the best recovery moves in the game, very good out of shield option, an awesome combo starter/extender, great edgeguarding AND 2 framing move thanks to his long lasting hitbox and bayo can do whatever she wants with it.
Even if you don't count her side b, can you imagine incineroar going double up-b into neutral/side b?! Bowser and k rool would kill you at 60 with their fairs.
Ridley would have combo routes dealing 50 or so, villager and isabelle would be able to camp you way better, Sephiroth would always put you on the ledge.... this move sometimes is plus 20 on hit!!
And lastly, every character with a bad recovery would have a good one at least IMO.
She might be the best character in the game with it (of course she is duh v.v), but still, omg that move is my favorite move in the game to use. It just feels so good to use
I aint never seen a video this long in one sitting, first time
I feel like the Animal Crossing characters might deserve some consideration as an honorable mention for their dash attack, not necessarily for its use as a standard dash attack but just that it is so unusual in how it functions that you might find characters picking it when they otherwise have options they can already use out of a dash. I'm certainly biased here since I'm an Isabelle main but it gives her a surprising amount of utility in a way I could see being taken advantage of in other movesets.
Great Video! I personally disagree with neutral special (Block is the best move in the game imo) but as long as its between shulk and steves neutral special thats all that super matters in my eyes. Keep up the good work and content
So I have a bit of insight to mention regarding Min Mins Forward Tilt as a modder of the game. Technically, Min Mins Forward Tilt isnt a tilt, rather its classified as one of her "short" attacks ("long" attacks are her Smashes/Specials), therefore the jumping/double arms are encoded as part of the move (though the arm swap wouldn't be eligible), and therefore could be eligable as being better than Sephiroths.
ngl, I feel Corrin is getting overhyped. I think they are good but I think it's more that a good player is navigating them and paving a way vs the character just being amazing. I think the results are an indicator of Corrin being an easier character for others to pick up than say when Joker was the character with that everyone was picking up.
Players!!!! SHADIC isn't the only pilot for Corrin. Neo, Sparg0,Carmelo, LY, Diegorou. Even Miya is considering picking up Corrin. And Corrin results isn't just good it's actually the best!!!
Also corrin isn't easy. I mean if you just want to do good in your local. Yeah she's probably not that hard. But if you want to go far like multiple players I named. You need to learn a lot of different stuff. Like muscle memory all the Corrin combo flowcharts. The micro movement, the kill confirm, some niche tech like FS DAir. GAKT even said when he interviewed SHADIC. He thinks Corrin is the hardest sword character in the game.
I really miss the animation tier list videos, are you done with them or are you gonna return to them. Really enjoy your vids btw
50:00 I was under the impression that rob nair got safer after using up b because it was a more consistent way to get the auto cancel as soon as possible after landing
Just a note about game and watch nair, the direction it sends the opponents depends on which way the game and watch player is drifting. so the game and watch player is always in control of where the move sends opponents. I would consider the different directions it could send as a positive because it means your opponent doesn’t know exactly which way to DI it.
Another move I wanna mention for down airs is Mega Mans’ Hard Knuckle. Yes, it’s slow but its utility makes up for it. It’s long ranged, it spikes, it’s 0 to +1 on block, and it’s a decent combo tool.
Glad you eventually did catch Charizard's up throw being incorrect when you factor in DI, that one was bothering me for a while lol.
Hey Mockrock, are you ever gonna releythe shortlist for these videos? I feel like that'd be something a lot of people (myself included) would be interested in seeing
GAME AND WATCH UP AIR
Feels like forever since I’ve played this game with my friends, almost a year in fact. When I was in high school we would play this game during the hour long lunch break we had
I was questioning if we needed an update... then I remembered that Sora came out two and a half years ago...
I've been meaning to ask, is there a chance that we can get an updated retrospective of every smash character? It's fine if we can't cause that would require a LOT of work, but I think it's an interesting topic because of how much the meta has changed from the first year and how many characters have gone up and down from the original video
Before Smash 6 comes out, you'll likely see this, but it's unlikely to be before we've at least had it announced. I've addressed this before: doing a big "everything about every character all at once" video is something that makes my job substantially harder afterwards, so I don't want to exhaust all those talking points without new ones on the horizon.
Pretty good video, appreciate how much detail you into.
Won't stop the obligatory disagreement pick cause K. Rool's Up-Throw should have been brought into the discussion.
It's straight up stronger then Zard's under optimal DI, and is not much weaker at ground-level/without a platform compared to M2's and Roar's.
With a lower platform which are common enough to factor, it's a monster.
(also it does 20% but you know :p)
I like the logic better if special cancel is on the special move rather than the move that gets canceled.
A mockrock video! Wooo!
I've lost count how much I've watched this video. Probably among my favorite videos on all of youtube.
Very surprised that Game & Watch up air was not mentioned
Love the format of the “best of every…” type videos, what if you did one to create the best possible gunner/sword/brawler characters based on existing moves
Ex. Gunner -
Up Tilt: Mewto
Forward Smash: Mega Man
Neutral Special: Samus
Neutral Air: Palutana
…and so on
About Link's neutral air, it nullifies many projectiles. Have you ever seen a Link player use a neutral air and block the deadliest of projectiles like villager tree, Bowser Jr cannon, and many others?
Hey you finally got the training mode mod!
I'm really surprised you again didn't feature Chrom's foward tilt in the best of section. Its just Marth's but with uniform damage and kill power AND it hits ledge. Imo its at least top 3.
Isn’t it super unsafe? I might be remembering wrong
At 9:01 if you wanted a killing Up Tilt to give Honorable Mention to, Mega Man's is surprisingly jank. It's third in kill power behind Snake and Ganon, it has intangibility for three frames starting on frame 5, has its hitbox out on frame 6, can land on platforms above you and get off ledge like a pseudo jump, and can even ignore some counters. An odd move, but a pretty good one.
Okay, hear me out. Mega Man's up tilt should be jump cancellable at its apex. It would take the jank to all new heights in the awesomest way possible.
I was on the fence about float. However, a friend told me to try the super leaf item with any character and realize how broken it would be if any character had access to this in a competitive enviroment. I float-backaired with Pika from one side of the stage to the blastzone... I'm a believer now.
The problem with juniors f smash is that you can’t throw it out in neutral much cause it lasts a lot longer than meta knights; meaning it’s total frames are quite long and on whiff the opponent can position above junior and try to punish
What are your thoughts on Dedede's up tilt?
It combos at low percents, it kills at high ones and it hits on a pretty wide arc with a massive invincible hitbox. It even starts by hitting decently far behind him, making it good for catching rolls.
I feel like the only reason it's not noticed more is because it's stuck on Dedede.
Thoughts?
I think Ganondorf has an incredible dash. Burst option that kills on the sweetspot or combos for a long while on the sourspot.
“A couple years ago”?! Wow I’m old
Oh lord, did the Corin bias kick in God damn boi
Most people don't talk about it, but DDD has an absolutely insanely good up air. Even DDD can use it for drag down combos, it's a comically good anti air that out spaces anything above you, can't be countered, and can kill off the top at 100. It is also a very nice option to mix up getting off ledge. So many characters would benefit off of this
YAY MOCKROCK UPLOADED
No pikachu back air? I guess it's probably somewhat dependent on his physics. Great video!
This is random but a video idea that I think could work would be a top 10 list on the best spikes/meteor smashes in the game. Ofc you don't have to do this, it's just a suggestion
Gosh darn it mockrocktalk, the people yearn for animation tier lists
Personally, I would still pick EWGF over float, imagine EWGF into bowser up smash of G&W up b for combos. Plus, float on little Mac...
MORE MOCK ROCK YESSSS
i think gyro should at least be discussed since out of all the items it creates an active threat while its being spawned, meaning you dont need to give up any time or stage control. pretty much all of the items give you crazy combos but having that extra bit of safety + you can cancel the charge i think makes gyro better than any of the other item down b's besides banana maybe
Ik they're a little weird but im very surprised witch twist and abk weren't mentioned, namely abk.
The move just does SO much, it would be an incredible recovery mixup for plenty of characters, make disadvantage state much more manageable across the board, and hell there's some very strong uairs/bairs in this game that I'd be mortified to see true combo out of this move in juggles. In my mind especially swordies would become straight up unfair with it but just about anyone would want it. Spindash still is top dog tho
As for witch twist this gives everyone a very reliable oos that a lot of characters could kill confirm off of as well. Triple jump being a witch twist tech is also a massive deal, and this edgeguard capabilities would be very impressive. Without abk you cant go out for AS long or set up your deeper edgeguards as fast, but its still strong. Def think these two moves had more than enough going for them to make the list. Special lag is a p negligible flaw if you're taking that into account, moreso with abk.
I’m so glad I decided to rewatch the worst of remix, because otherwise my recommendations didn’t give this to me!
Here's a fun fact about Mac F smash. You can perform an untrue combo with Up angled F smash to down angled f smash at zero percent and it will immediately take your opponent to 50 if they don't know they have to jump. Jump against Mac
You know when you started talking about Pin’s 2-framing potential, I was like “didn’t we just have this conversation with MK’s drill rush?”, which similarly has ridiculous 2-frame potential along with general usage in edge guarding, reads, etc.
…and then you went “BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE!” And blew my mind.
Similar to Corrin, MK’s popularity had and has shot up a fair amount and with it came alot of unique practical uses of seemingly nothing moves. And as someone who isn’t even a MK player but someone who loves diverse and creative usages of character tools, I couldn’t be happier.
Wow, I got here early. And it's funny, I just rewatched the original earlier today!
30:21
I want to point out: I think the move it called Shadow CLAW, like it is in the games, though I could be wrong
I cut the segment from the original video where I said "it's called Shadow Scratch even though it should clearly be called Shadow Claw" lol. It's called Shadow Scratch, dumb as that may be.
@@MockRockTalkis it really called shadow scratch? That IS dumb, haha
Also, I meant to ask: where do you rank Steve Up B? Cause it's probably the best pure recovery move in the whole game
@@Beast_the_smash_guyHe's also taking into consideration the offensive utility of each up b, in which there are better up b's
I know you haven’t said it for a while, but it’s still weird as hell to not hear you say “I HATE THAT MOVE” whenever Ness down smash at ledge comes up. It’s like your catchphrase at this point and always made me smile. Granted it did kind of make an appearance at 21:29, but still
Also slight disagreement about Greninja dash attack not being on here. I think that move works stupidly well on any character, and TCNick made a video of a mod that had the best of every move on a character, and Greninja dash attack was on it and worked really well. (Granted this was on top of it being with the best moves in the game, but I still argue that dash attack can work with any character. Even Little Mac. Not well, but it would work)
Also also, strongly disagree about EWGF being worse than float. I think that move is busted no matter the character.
Anyway, just my opinion though, otherwise great video as always!!
Steve blocks technically also get you out hitstun via pmlg tho
Rock did mention earlier two points that that didn't pan out as strong as it seemed and if it was banned it isn't part of the discussion as only competitive discussion was included
For the record, the best Z-air imo is either ZSS's or Lucas's. ZSS's I think, is a better neutral tool and recovery, but Lucas's is better for follow-ups, I feel. Not loop into itself types of follow-ups with lower movement stats and lack of as good double jump canceling, but I think there's more there than ZSS whip from my experience using it raw.
For dash attack I would’ve considered Mythra and Incineroar. Mythra I can understand not including because it might be dependent on her movement speed, but it’s so quick and sends at a nasty angle.
Incineroars feels like a bit of an oversight because it’s way safer than something like cloud dash attack while also killing much more consistently and starting up pretty quick and going very far. It’s also frame 8 which is faster than clouds and wolfs. It can also cross up but not as easily. It’s -21 which is the same as palu and safer than all the other ones mentioned except wolf.
Surprised at no Lucas d smash honorable mention, seems to do the 2 framing and killing thing relatively well and is safer than youd think since how the hitboxes linger and push shielded enemies away
Babe wake up, new MockRock best of released
Since Mock decided that rob’s up b was the best partially because of what is most likely a glitch, should we not also consider phantom mlg when choosing the best neutral b? I feel it functions very similarly to shield art with the additional upside of being able to immediately punish the opponent, but is that enough to outweigh the versatility that comes with the other arts? What do y’all think?
No mention of Steve F smash surprised me because of how spammable, safe and strong it is. Though thanks to Steve's unique tools it becomes a lot more deadly
Charge shot isn’t really the main reason why samus has such good ledge trapping. That is mainly due to her down b. That move forces your opponents to choose an option, or take free damage. It also can easily set up into free hits as well if they pick the wrong option. Without her down b, charge shot ledge trapping wouldn’t be as reliable. Still a stupidly strong move.
It’s weirding hearing corrin has apparently Bering storming the meta
agreed.
not as weird to me as kazuya not being top 10 on the official list anymore, or sonic being #2 tho
I think Ridley has a much better f tilt than Sephiroth. The hitbox is way bigger than it looks, it lingers a tiny bit,and it 2-frames while killing instead of hitting a sour spot for people holding ledge.
I will admit I am terribly biased as I am a Ridley main, but I'm inclined to both agree and disagree, IMO it is so close that it comes to personal preference. If not, Seph's is very slightly higher
-Ridley's forward tilt comes out faster and ends the same
-Sephiroth has more range, BUT the actual sweetspot of the move is in the middle so the range of the sweetspot for both is quite similar
-Sephiroth's forward tilt sweetspot kills around 20 or so percent higher, which is considerable
-Sephiroth's lasts one frame more
-Ridley's is a little better on shield I think?
I would say Sephiroth's is better for the neutral due to the bonus range of the sourspot and killing earlier, and Ridley's is better for edgeguards, hard choice since both moves are *very* similar and fill very similar roles and do them well.
@@Krona-fb4dn Eh, Ridley's is worth an HM.
@@MrGameguyC I would agree, at worst, I can just say its slightly worse than Seph's and even then it has its own upsides, Ridley's forward tilt comes out in 10 frames whereas Seph's Ftilt comes out in 14. That's not nothing and its just missing the edge sourspot part that seph has.
@@MrGameguyC Actually I did forget a pretty considerable weakness to Ridley's ftilt and that is his hurtbox extends with it so its not as disjointed as the range it covers unlike sephiroth's.
He grabs his tail and drives his tailspike into the opponent and only the sweetspot is the part that has complete disjoint.
The hitboxes on ftilt are wider, however, and Sephiroth's could be much more reasonably dodged as its a lot thinner for another tradeoff compared to Rid's ftilt.
I still think they largely come close.
40:08 doesn't Steve have some kind of tech using his neutral b that allows him to cancel knockback when he gets hit?
I'm pretty sure tournaments made it so that if you get caught using it you forfeit the set, but I don't remember hearing anyone do that for Shulk's Shield Monado.
PMLG sounds scary on paper, but it ended up being very useless in practice. There was a $100 bounty posted by UltRank for even just one clip of PMLG being used in a real match to some degree of effectiveness, and it stayed up for months before expiring with zero serious submissions.
@@TheTrueBrawler thanks for the update! That explains his decision, because I felt like there was no way he hadn't heard about that.
@@TheTrueBrawler Honestly, I believe the controversy got in the way.
Good Steves probably would have tried abusing it more if didn't risk banning their character.