Your first analysis ltrly pushed me to watch baby reindeer and i loved the show! it absolutely did remind me a lot of i may destroy you in terms of the themes of cyclical patterns that the main characters display, same dark tone but beautiful humorous moments; an all-round very nuanced story about sexual trauma and returning to familiar patterns and how it can affect other areas of your life and the people around you and a very powerful story. only difference is donny is a much more passive character than arabella - they both displayed self destructive tendencies whereas arabella is very type A and less people-pleasy. i also agree with your alternative ending; at that point he was already kind of regressing into familiar patterns - abandoning opportunities to obsess over her "past" and what made her the way she was even after she had been locked up, and then agreeing to a writers role on his abusers reboot - it would've lined up much more if he was skulking around her prison where she was locked up and maybe they caught eyes and it ended there. we already saw his history of following her home before so it wouldn't be a stretch.
@@marshallstannus you're so welcome! i'm a huge fan of your channel and i love your recommendations, you always have a great way of analysing them. keep doing you mate!
The final scene meant something different to me. He was in the position that she was in the beginning and was treated kindly by a bartender who felt sorry for him just as he did her that first day. When his bartender felt sorry for him he realized that a “normal”person can be treated with empathy and kindness by a stranger and not interpret it as anything more than what it is. I think that it’s the beginning of his coming to terms with having treated her kindly that first day. He recognizes that his kindness should not have been taken as an invitation. And that he wasn’t “asking for it.” He basically gets to see his initial kind gesture from her point of view. He has to realize in that moment that he was simply kind to the wrong person. I assume that he’ll be having these moments of recognizing where he was culpable and where he was not as he continues to process what happened.
I think that is close to what I felt too. I was just hoping that the barman would be kind as the message "kindness to strangers is a bad thing" would be a sour way to end the show. But I still felt that it was an off way to end things. Not really a strong enough or clear enough message for a final beat. The voicemails were a better ending to the themes for me.
I didn't get that interpretation from the final scene I saw it as the perpetuation of a cycle. Donny had overcome almost everything that was holding him back and was almost completely honest with himself bar one staggering truth, the dangers of his obsessive personality. Teri confronts him on it while in their apartment, the reason why he'd let something go so far is because despite him being a victim, he definitely chose to indulge in Matha despite knowing he was a liar and that she was obviously mentally ill. He says in his speech that it was due to wanting to be admired but I don't think that's it. I think Donny seeks anchors, he needs someone to attach himself to so that he can blind himself when he makes a bad decision. Donny met Martha after his comedy career was going to shit, he anchored himself to her as to not relieve his failure, same with his girlriend, after the festival and Teri as a consequence of meeting Martha. That's why I don't think that barman giving him a drink for free meant anything good. He just made a catastrophically horrible decision moments prior and he found someone new to obsess over to drive him from his mistakes. I think in that moment he realised how similar both he and Martha are, both would-be success stories if not for their needs for anchors.
Problem is, u're speaking about it as if giving her tea was all he did. No one deserves to be stalked, but he absolutely bears some responsibility for playing w/ obvious fire & indulging a clearly unwell woman to feed his own ego. What happened w/ Martha is not really analogous to a S/A or grooming.
I personally think he went to his abuser because Martha was gone and he needed the positive affirmation. It also clearly shows how abusers really aren’t seen as evil. They flatter you. They make you feel good. And despite popular opinion, they often aren’t physically violent like we think of it.
One thing that made the final couple of episodes great for me was his parents. I really liked them both and their reactions felt true. The scene where Donny both comes out and says he was raped was something I had to watch a few times. It got me every time when his father revealed his own abuse.
Richard Gadd said he changed Martha's character completely so people couldn't find out who she was in real life so my theory is she was actually attractive and that's why things got so far and he felt flattered by her admiration in the beginning
Yeah they kept saying she was middle aged and the actress playing Martha is only 38. (And Richard Gadd is 34 although he is playing 27-28) I think the real woman must have been in her 50s.
Unfortunately, the internet sleuths have found her and she closely resembles the actress that played her. And they also Found the director, who as of last week has stepped down from his role and he too bares a close resemblance to the actor that played him.
The trauma bonding wiith both abusive characters (Martha and the tv writer Darrien) is what makes this programme really unique for me. The reasons victims feel compassion for abusers and keep going back is a trauma response. Thank you for naming this as trauma bonding.
I think he went back to Darien with the intention of confronting him and getting answers/closure but he just couldn't go through with it because he was still scared of him and wanted/needed something from him(approval?praise? A job which he ultimately gets offered?)
Yes I think there's this pervasive idea that you need closure. To confront your abuser in some way. But if you get to the point of seeing them again it's likely fear will lead you back to old patterns. The best thing to do is leave and never look back but it can leave people feeling like things are unresolved or that you're "weak" for never standing up to them in person. Society also perpetuates this idea, people want neat endings. They want victims to forgive (esp if the abuser is family) or confront (if the abuser is seen as a villain).
I actually really enjoyed the way the public breakdown scene occurred specifically because of how dramatic it was. Like you said, we as the audience kind of knew the inner workings and thoughts of Donny, so none of what he said was really a new revelation, but once you consider the on-screen audience, you realize that although we might know all of this is going on, they have no idea. Really the only people in the room who even knew about Martha during this moment were his coworkers, and they didn’t sympathize or even understand the extent of how bad it was for him. I mean they even went out of their way to engage with Martha in a way that made the situation worse for him, like making jokes about their “relationship” to try to embarrass him and egg her on, sending her that email from Donny’s account to insinuate that he had sexual interests towards her, and completely disregarding his concern about her frequently coming into his place of work because they found her entertaining. They directly escalated the situation by feeding into her delusions and giving her the ability to cross boundaries. Even when the situation escalated to Donny literally being attacked by her in the bar, they were more concerned with the fact that they would get in trouble for allowing the situation to happen in the first place than the fact that Donny was in danger. In their minds, Donny’s situation was more or less a joke, so having him completely lay out the extent of his pain and all of the things he was going through not only to complete strangers, but to these people who had been watching it unfold in front of them without really seeing it for what it was, and intentionally making it worse, was extremely impactful. It showcased that very specific catharsis of finally confessing all of the things he’s been holding in for so many years, and in a fucked up way getting back at these people who had intentionally and unintentionally had a hand in causing this trauma by putting them on display, speaking directly to them during this confession in a “what do you have to say now, huh?” kind of way. Obviously, the scene didn’t play out exactly the way it did in real life, but the feeling of finally letting himself come to terms with everything and finally say it all in one big moment in front of everyone rather than having to come to terms with it alone by himself is something I’m sure many victims of abuse think about regularly. The idea of being able to just tell the people involved how their actions have impacted your life so directly, and not letting them have the excuse of ignorance anymore. Being able to out both the abusers and the bystanders who allowed it to happen, as often times (and specifically in his situation) there is a certain extent of blame to be placed in the people who knew and did nothing about it. As someone who has experienced sexual trauma, I have fantasized about having this exact type of blowup confession out of nowhere simply for the sake of being seen when I’m hurting the most. The act of wanting to just burst out and say it all even if it’s inappropriate just because you can’t hold it in anymore. Idk it can be hard to understand this type of thinking unless you’ve experienced it firsthand, but it definitely felt real to me. I’m not going to speak about Richard’s experience on that bc obviously I don’t know, but it felt very intentional that Donny would have this sort of outburst; it was almost inevitable with the way his character spent the whole series suppressing all of his emotions and experiences that he would have to just get them all out at once in order to even begin processing it. And although Richard didn’t have this kind of big public breakdown, just the fact that he’s using this scene to portray his experience of processing these emotions screams to me that he at least fantasized about this kind of messy public confession at some point as well.
100% agree and relate to the whole fantasy thing. And now that you've highlighted this moment, to me, it's like Richard's way of kind of saying (even though it didn't really happen in real life that way), his writing out this life experience and now putting it into live acting performances is basically how that felt. Like he's finally just standing up and releasing this publicly. So essentially, he *did* Do this, but just not exactly in this manner. Does that makes sense? Because he did do the one man shows prior to this netflix series. So in a way, this whole thing is his "youtube" moment.
I also agree. That moment is meant for the audience in terms of learning something new about Donny, it’s about Donny finally no longer hiding in the dark. He’s no longer holding it all in. Just as he’s said, he can’t handle all the pain, hurt and trauma on his own anymore. The very VERY step to any kind of recovery is acceptance, and Donny being vulnerable on stage like that and trauma dumping is showing that’s he’s finally ready to properly heal. He’s ready to talk about it, no matter how painful talking about it and revisiting the past and letting the memories he’s tried so hard to run from and repress may be. And the audience gets to see Donny have the catharsis and character changing/growing moment.
I think the end of the show is just to show us that he understood the impact of his kindness on Martha on a day when she felt worthless. I think it added value
When he returned to his abuser and agreed to work with him as paid employment, at first his expression was elated and surprised. But after the agreement, his face fell again. Then in the next scene we see him crying on a bench. Was that because he realized what had just happened, how easily he was sucked back in, and the understanding that he couldn't go back as he'd agreed? I think so.
@@thewrongshoes because he was addicted to feeling like that. The whole situation gave him a rush. That's why afterwards he had an anxiety attack after realizing what he had just done. He was addicted to them both (his abuser and Martha) giving him praise and compliments and then making him feel like shit. He was obssesed with it.
@@thewrongshoesI think he wanted to confront him, but folded immediately. At that moment, he wasn't ready, and defaulted to his more agreeable, passive side. Only when he got out did he realise he let himself get taken advantage again. Just like when he went to the police to report Martha. That's my interpretation of it anyways
LONG message incoming haha. I hope people read on because I've put a lot of thought into communicating about this show, and I come from a place of spending my entire 20s trying to work my trauma out so I relate a lot to Donny, though my story is not as extreme I think my trauma and self awareness gives me a unique understanding of the tragic but understandable motivations behind self sabotage. @thewrongshoes Having similar trauma to Donny (albeit with way less crazy results), I recognised what was happening in Donny in the moment he turns back to the writer. As to why Donny descends back into hell, if you will, I believe there's multiple things going on simultaneously. First, I think Donny is a lonely person at his core, and he's seeking love the only place he thinks he can get it. I think this is due to abandonment trauma from emotional neglect in his childhood - probably from his dad, but maybe his mum too. Even though his relationship with his parents blossoms in the series, on the inside I think there's still a baby who is crying out for love that never came and that because it never came, he believes he is unworthy of. That inner child needs to be heard and loved before Donny can heal and can stop picking bad apples, as it were. That's what it's like inside the world of an adult who was chronically emotionally neglected in their childhood. Doesn't mean his parents weren't great people and even great parents, just that they weren't whole enough in themselves to raise an emotionally healthy child. So after losing his stalker and his girlfriend in one fell swoop, both of which he feels he is to blame for losing, he is completely alone in the world again and that kind of loneliness will drive people to hell's door for a crumb of love. Second, I think Donny feels like he's spun out of control and has passed the point of no return, at which point all bets are off. Too much has happened to him, he's fallen too far, and perhaps something in him breaks and he no longer has the fight in him to resist his own terribly tragic impulse towards seeking out danger. People who grew up feeling emotionally unsafe will choose emotionally unsafe people to get close to because the inner child accepts the love it thinks it deserves. Thirdly, it could be a cry for help - Donny is acting out to shock himself and others and to yell to the world how bad things have gotten in his life. I've done similar things. Shit gets so bad and you're so scared and helpless to change your situation that you do things you would never have dreamed of before, just to show yourself and others that IT IS THAT BAD and something needs to be done. Lastly, I wonder if Donny is at the end of a kind of villain origin story where he believes so strongly that he's bad to the bone that he's given up on ever living a happy life at that moment, and if you're the villain there's no need to try to save yourself any more. And I haven't even covered Donny's relationship to fame, which I believe also traces its roots back to abandonment trauma. The same reason he entertains his stalker is the reason he wouldn't give up on making his big break - because he has a hole at his centre where his parent's/parents' love should have been, and a common way people try to fill that hole is by proving themselves as talented to THE WORLD. He's not only returning to a toxic person but to a toxic dream - the dream of finally being good enough to win the world over as a comedian because he couldn't win his parent's love as just himself, just Donny. There are a few options for you! Let me know what y'all think. Thank you for letting me spiel, I just want to spend the whole day teasing this show apart!
@@thewrongshoes he's not thinking right in that moment, look at that body language he is having a trauma response and just did what he knows best, which is to be agreeable. That is why the moment he's away he ends up having a panic attack. At least that's how I understand it. But i could totally be biased because that was my experience. I went up to my abuser thinking I could confront him or show him I am so strong and poof immediately before I knew it or could stop it I was being meek, and agreeable and obedient and speaking softly and avoiding eye contact. All sense only came back once I was physically away from his presence and I learnt my lesson.
Martha is really one of the most interesting "villain" characters I've ever seen. She is sympathetic, but quickly goes too far in her compliments and attention. She's abused, but also an abuser. She's sad and pathetic, but also one of the scariest characters I've seen in tv. In the end, I didn't just want her arrested or with a restraining order, I just wanted her to get the help that she needed. Donny is also so interesting as a protagonist. He's a coward, needy, makes so many wrong decisions, but especially in episode 4 we learn a bit of how and why he became that way. Great writing and great performances from both!
I felt this way about Judy from Dead To Me!!! Although she's much more of a sympathetic character and less of a villain, but she's SO messy and multifaceted and human.
I believe I read somewhere that she didn't actually get jailed for stalking Richard, precisely because Richard felt bad about her situation and wanted her to get help. Also something along the lines of him not feeling it was okay to get her imprisoned when he held himself responsible for encouraging so much of it.
I think he went back to check if he is over that trauma. When he leaves, he shows symptoms of PTSD, it looks like a panic attack, so he obviously not over it. Ppl often do this when they want to 'test' themselves, if a person, a place etc. caused trauma for them. If you face with it, and you do not get upset, you are over it.
Him going back to the abuser is very common. I am friends with someone who wa abused as a child by their step parents. This person is now in their 30s, and still hangs around the step parent. They confronted the abuser, sort of, and decided to still be in their lives.
Yes! This is quite common. What I also thought of was (a) "cotton mouth" was a project he wanted to be part of initially (before the abuse) and (b) him going back to work with his abuser could be the typical "I went through this extreme abuse, so I should get something from it".
@@nonduduzomkhize8249yep! Sunk cost fallacy. He kept coming back by essentially rationalizing it as ‘it already happened once, what’s a few more times at this point to get what I want’
This show is amazing. I love that it was told from the perspective of a man who just can’t stay away from his stalker because of his own insecurity and trauma. We have heard this story 1 million times from women and women are scorned and criticized for going back. Maybe now that a man is coming out with a story people will take it seriously. I hate that that’s the way it is but that’s the way it is. People believe men.
I see it differently from you. The part where he breaksdown on stage was not for the audience but for him. It was the power of the MeToo movement, to come out and put voice to his abuse story publicly.
For me him coming back is not necessarly about how easy it is to fall back into being a victim. Partially yes, but as a result, the REASON was that sometimes, for some people, being SOMEBODY (as an artist, comedian, or as a hetronormative ideal of man) is more important than feeling peace but exist as NOBODY no matter what the cost is. One thing about this show that made me shocked, uncomfortable but also in awe is how Dunn didnt stray away from being raw and completely honest about his mistakes, motivations and shortcomings. He wrote the show, he acted in it and he could have serve us the polished version of what happened, but he kept it raw and honest and i think that is very brave.
A lot of people say he went back to his abuser and kept Martha around because they made him feel seen, with the validation and praise. But I don't understand why the validation he got from the more "better adjusted" people in his life wasn't enough? Like he had that nice girlfriend, Keeley I think was her name. In the few scenes with her, I felt she really cared for him. Even during acting class, she gave a shit about him. And then Terry, she was just amazing. And yeah he was in love with her, but still threw it away because of Martha? Even his parents, they didn't seem particularly distanced or bad. Why the need to seek validation from fucked up people?
The best thing about this show is the vulnerability shown not just in his own admissions some of which could be perceived as embarrassing to some but also in how the other characters are written, many of which don’t show him in a good light but he included it anyway.
Everyone has sympathy for Martha because she represents parts of us. The difference between victim and perpetrator is complex and grey. We are all human and each of us, could be either one of them. The actress was incredible ❤️
Spot on, thank you. I liked that they didn't mention Martha's body size. This, to me, seemed irrelevant to their relationship (analyzing only the fictional characters here). Donny might have been mostly drawn to trans women at the time, or maybe he wasn't actively looking for a partner - as we were shown he wasn't planning to fall in love with Teri, she was just one person out of many that he dated in order to figure out his own sexuality. To me everything points to Donny and Martha's deep and immediate click being a bond caused by prior trauma. Therefore it doesn't matter _why_ he wasn't sexually attracted to her (it might as well have been due to her being cis or due to the age gap which was addressed as a potential problem several times), he just wasn't. Donny starting to masturbate to her picture seemed more like a stress response than anything - I did not interpret this as actual sexual attraction. In fact Martha didn't seem sexually attracted to Donny either - she clearly loved him and became obsessed with the thought of him being her boyfriend, but the sexual thoughts she expressed seemed compulsive and more a means to control him and the situation - I don't think what she expressed were pure sexual feelings or desires, rather it seemed to come from a desire to feel safe and protected. Others may not agree, but I do think that we have here two characters that both have confused other complex emotions and basic needs with sexuality and sexual attraction.
Okay, that's it, you've done it, I've GOT to binge the whole thing again! 🤣 It's so nuanced - the scenes, the emotions (theirs and mine) and empathies shift like bits of glass in a kaleidoscope. I don't agree with your observation in part one about the final scene, which you felt was a little "on the nose". I'm not smart enough (emotionally or academically) to articulate why I disagree, but I think it was something to do with the fact that Donny said, "It's an arrogant, patronising feeling, feeling sorry for someone you've only just laid eyes on...". For me, I don't see that last scene being about Donny in the "same spot as Martha..." - rather it made me look directly at myself as observer & judge watching their story for the first time. The arrogance that I could ever truly understand the complexities of their story or indeed, however hard I try, my own.
You said you couldn't articulate it, then articulated it and pretty well if I do say so myself ... we can all be our own worst critics sometimes. I understood exactly what you meant. Give yourself more credit 😊
The ending where Donny goes back to his abuser means a lot to me. To me it felt like he went back to the only thing he had left. The only "normal" thing that he knew was still around. To feel a sense of connection when all others are gone.
I was also confused that he went back and I need to watch it all again to try and make sense of what I saw but I feel like maybe once he confronted himself with what happened he felt the need to confront his abuser. But seeing him face to face might have felt too real and he caught him off guard when he said he'd already seen the video. Then he's looking directly at him which is terrifying. Like, yes I know that you know what I've done to you. So when Darrien makes that offer and Donny says yes, he might not have been agreeing to working with him at all. He might have just felt paralysed as he did when Darrien first made a move or when Martha groped him by the canal. The job offer itself might even not be a real job offer. It might be just a tactical way of bullying him into silence. If that's what happened, then he'd be crying for having missed the opportunity for whatever closure he thought the meeting would give him. Anyway, brilliant show. Brilliantly written, shot and acted by everyone. Yes, Martha steals the show a bit but everyone's perfect. Hope he settles for being the bravest man ever instead of just being the funny guy.
I saw the monologue as a moment where Donny confronts himself. And it had little to do with revealing his hardships to an audience. The whole series is from his perspective, and he was never truly himself the way that he was in his head/with the viewer. So his moment of brutal honesty was, I think, when his cognitive dissonance couldn’t sustain anymore. I feel like his return to Darrien’s was showcasing how difficult it is to break toxic patterns as a victim.
Richard Gadd delivers a captivating performance as Donny, alongside Jessica Gunning's compelling portrayal of Martha. Stephen King aficionados will find echoes of Annie Wilkes, the chillingly twisted protagonist brilliantly played by Kathy Bates, in King's seminal 1987 novel and its gripping 1990 film adaptation, "Misery."
My take on the ending when he goes back to his abuser is basically what he said when he told his story on stage he loves hating himself after he leaves he listens to the recordings Martha left saying all these postive things about him.
This abuser was in his eyes his big break into the entertainment industry. He endured all the abuse who shuttered his personality, emotions. When he saw the positive feedback on his script on the last episode, he thought it was time to see if there was going to be a reward { what hew was originally promised}. He had lost so much at that point he was at the lowest point in his life, so by going back he could either collect what was owed to him, or put it to rest.
We need to remember that it’s a true story like him not doing all the smart things he should’ve done is because he’s telling it from his perspective. He makes that clear in an interview that he knows he should’ve been different around the police
I feel like the monologue scene was probably something that was originally put in the screenplay as a soliloquy because they didn’t have as much narration as they did in the TV series. The scene probably read so powerfully they just couldn’t bear to part with it but in the show it just wasn’t as necessary
I feel Donny going back to his abuser was him trying to confront him, only to allow himself to be taken advantaged again. I've had experiences where I get motivated to do something or say something only to clam up immediately. Donny has shown himself to be socially awkward and very agreeable/passive under pressure. Like how he made an innuendo towards Martha to get out of a stressful situation. If Donny had done it later on, when he had grown to be more confident in himself, I think he could've succeeded, but at that moment he just wasn't ready enough to handle it, and defaulted to his more agreeable/passive side.
I suspect that I don’t have the same ability at critical appreciation as yourself Marshal, however I did find that the ending did resonate for me even if it was obvious and perhaps unnecessary for you. Thanks for your excellent insights.
Yeah, I kinda had the same question to 9:58 that if Martha were more of his type, would he endure more? She could have been much more sinister, if she were to have "the look" that could give her a pass to do anything to his life. And yes, she may not call him baby reindeer, but "you" instead ... just like Joe goldberg.
First- thanks for your intelligent & insightful vids on this show. As to the part where it appears that he's returning to his abuser- I read it as an indication of how hard dreams die- that even after what took place he so wants fame (external validation) that he'll consider it. As to the on-stage breakdown (which was so beautiful visually) - they would have needed 3 more episodes to show what actually happened! Pure logistics...
In the States we have a bit of a different definition of stalking. It doesn't need to be a clear and violent threat, it can merely be inappropriate physical proximity, like a co-worker suddenly appearing at your kids' football game, or birthday party, multiple times, despite being asked not to, or the hanging out at the bus stop that Martha does. This is probably because we have the additional quirk of having access to firearms. On each of the half-dozen occasions where Martha threatens to stab Donny or his ex or Teri, substitute a gun and you would have a very different scenario. I'm not saying we "do it better" so much as I say we have to do it differently because of the access to guns that stalkers have here, particularly a lawyer, who would be given a carry permit for a pistol as an officer of the court. (I never thought Martha was lying about being a lawyer - I thought she probably was one at some point, but had a psychotic break and had never managed to balance her medications properly. Just my theory.)
I had a similar reaction to the breakdown scene as you although I think we have to think of it as sort of a stand-in for the play he ended up doing in real life. In real life he did actually start telling his story It just wasn't an impromptu breakdown it was a plate he wrote. And that did lead his career opportunities and sort of the therapy he needed.... But of course that wouldn't have work timeline wise with the show.
I personally think donny is more dangerous and toxic than his stalker, I also think he encouraged her behaviour when he could have stopped it. Personally I think donny is a very dangerous man
Based on your comments, you have very little understanding of how abuse trauma and PTSD work. You use the term 'trauma-bonding,' but again I'm not convinced that you truly understand what it means. Donny was not obsessed with Martha. His behaviors were completely in line with someone who's been groomed by their abuser.The effect is similar to drug addiction, in that the substance controls the victim's mind and actions. By this point, Martha literally controlled Donny's thoughts and behaviors. What I find difficult to believe is that neither psych major Keeley or licensed therapist Teri figured out tthat this was what's happening to Donny. Esp. for Teri, and based on Donny's mental state, it should've been obvious. What drove me crazy was every time that both women would blame Donny, or allege that he 'liked' what was going on. Perhaps if Donny were a woman, they would've been quicker to assess what was really happening to him. This further emphasizes the truth thst male trauma and abuse are too often minimized and taken less seriously. Regarding the theory that things would've been different if Donny had been attracted to Martha. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Martha is an abuser with psychotic tendencies. She is severel;y menttally ill. That has absolutely nothing to do with her physical appearance. Martha did not love Donny in a way that was healthy or nurturing..Had Martha been younger and beautiful, she still would've manifested those same psychotic behaviors and probably caused even greater damage to Donny's psyche'... After Martha is sent to prison, Donny continues listening to her voice messages and thinking about her. This is not obsession, this is PTSD. And it is extremely common in trauma abuse survivors. Compare Donny's condition to a soldier that returns home from war but can't fully accept that the war is really over. They continue replaying the trauma in their heads, because they are unable to detach themselves from it. It's why Donny returned to Darrien's apartment- because by that time the trauma is so deeply engrained that it now feels normal. It's also the reason why soldiers, who've completed multiple tours and survived return home and end up committing suicide. Just because an abuser has been caught or locked up doesn't mean their victim instantly recovers from the trauma. By the end of the series, Donny is probably at his most vulnerable, and is most susceptible to seriously harming himself.
Unlike Fleabag and Arabella in IMDY ... Donny doesn't seem like a type-A personality. Actually, he's more of an Asher/Nathan (another character I still find hard to quit). In that they both seem to have a submissive personality type. So much so that humiliation and being controlled form the peak contours of their erotic tapestry. I suppose the nature of manhood can be a universal struggle for most men in their 20's and 30's. But it seems like Baby Reindeer is just at the beginning of the journey. Because S&M feels like the lifestyle that he eventually adopts and fully embraces. I can only hope Richard Gadd finds some new artistic way to share what he discovers next.
I think one of the reasons that Donny goes back to the abuser at the end was in an effort to humanise him. He’d done these terrible acts to him and completely upended his life, and in turn had give him so much power. But he went back so he could see what had reeled him in in the first place, very similarly to the last bar scene where he realised that he wasn’t to blame for Martha’s actions - kind of comparing that the abuser and how easy it was to trust him, he could see how it wasn’t his fault
You put this show on my radar! What a ride! I'd like to give my opinion but I'm still digesting what I just watched. Speechless and thoroughly entertained. The writing, acting, scene production 🤌🏼... and Martha oh Martha! The Heavens conspired to grace us with her presence!! That actress slayed her part... I do agree a few episodes at the end you can tell they were running out of steam and it kind of dragged but it was a minor discomfort compared to the whole
How can you blame the police? He didn’t tell them the full story about what happened? He delayed telling them her name and then he didn’t report her assault on Teri. As far as him going back to his abuser, I think he had the intention of working with him again but then didn’t. Teri was right, he loves chaos in his life. Whenever Martha left him alone he started obsessing over her all over again. Listening to her voicemails all the time even after she was locked up.
It’s interesting to think that Teri framed it as Donny loving chaos, but I always extended it to Donny’s character as like “who is he, if not the chaos in his life” how he naturally connects and places chaos as the purpose of who he is. Which just creates another layer.
@@thewrongshoeshe didn’t want to report her because he never reported his own rape. He thought everyone else was okay with shrugging it off and carrying on. He didn’t realize that the way people were reacting was normal and he was the abnormal one
I think it became more tell than show in some episodes cause although we are able to understand what is being displayed, there are so many people who have poor comprehension skills that just need it to be said to them.
You said the breakdown scene was repetitive for you but as a victim of some of the shit the character went through, I also understand the need to get it spelled out for myself... It's like in some part of the back of my mind I know what happened to me was fucked up, and that it had a name, but some part of me wanted to believe that if I didn't name it it didn't happen to me, naming the shit was cathartic and driving towards healing so i totally get the breakdown scene
When i saw the ending that he returned to his abuser, i understood it as a false sense of power. For a victim, there is a rollarcoaster of emotions of how they understand a situation. Therefore, the ending meant he felt like he was in control again after feeling like he wasnt. For example, he just did a show that revealed these issues; he also just got Martha into jail...i think he is probably thinking that he has the control over all situations, including facing the abuser now and starting a show.
I think he came back to Darrien because he needed the validation, the attention and the "cultural" exchange he offered. I hated that part but I think it was the most realistic part. I think Donny is still a victim after coming back again and again to that suffering. It is pattern and it is comforting for him, in a twisted way. I have known people like Donny and I have lost patience with them. Now I feel more compassionate thanks to that show.
Him going back “You become the thing you hate the most” most of his life he has been relieving about his abuse “if you stare at the abyss the abyss gazes back” that became him eventually, you become the Beast you feed.
Donny wasn’t the perfect partner to Teri, neither was Teri being the best partner she could be to Donny. So it’s essentially telling of their dynamics as people, not just people being involved in this strangely complex yet enthralling relationship. Martha showing up in places where she shouldn’t really did feel unsettling to the core. Baby Reindeer isn’t just a stalking-centered show. It’s about people, how their minds work, how they get entangled in these circumstances, how they seem to be working towards getting the freedom that they’ve always wanted to have, and lastly, it highlights just how vile, cruel, emotionally manipulative people could be towards the weak. As mentioned previously, Donny, Martha, and Teri aren’t perfect people. They pretty much defined what it means to live in such a perfectly chaotic world and how to navigate through the perils of hardships. This is a stream of consciousness, so probably I’ve stumbled here and there, and that being said, my apologies for that.
He knows now for fame you have to work with the likes of his abuser there is no other way in.... The demonstration of the character of a person that is abused was outstanding. I am so moved by this show ❤
YESS MY BROTHER!!! At last.. You hit the nail on the head. How much of this show is a drug fuelled version of his crazy life. A failed comic that is wooed by a writer?? He knew he was rubbish, so what was his thinking? A cleaver guy manipulating shit to make a story?? Why is the biggest hitting part of the story NOT the biggest part of the debate?
i went into this show blind.. i didn't know it was Gadd was playing a fictionalized version of himself, i thought he was just a actor.. knowing that i think the stand-up breakthrough moment was something he written for himself as a way of telling his new audience watching the show how he wish he could've broken through.. if that makes sense..
Even if that part was fiction, It really broke me. There are times I wish I could just stop hating myself for every decisions I’ve made in life after any of the traumas. Yes, we knew what was happening in the episode but sometimes there are people who do not understand all the connections trauma can shape you as a person. Actually, I never realized how much it can impact a person. And even though it seems like there wasn’t any closure…I think we’re all just trying to make sense of life after trauma. Well, maybe not everyone but I sure am. lol!
Totally disagree that the police didnt do the right thing. From what you see in the show, Donny didnt do anything to help his case by providing proper evidence of what was going on. Might have been different in real life but he could have done more to help to police.
i think what this show does perfectly is really capture Donny's (aka Richard's) perspective. we are really put into his headspace. for the person being abused, they often have conflicting thoughts and behaviours. they do not necessarily view their abusers as abusers, but see good attributes in them too. with the way the show is thus conducted through Donny's lens, we're forced to empathise with Martha as opposed to solely thinking of her as a chilling stalker. that being said, i wonder what Donny's thoughts are towards the writer who abused him. i get that the show focuses primarily on the relationship between him and Martha, but i wonder if Donny ever had obsessive thoughts about *why* Darrien abused him, or if Donny regrets the way he neglected Keeley and probably let her think *she* was the reason why he didn't want to be intimate with her. in fact, i wonder if Keeley had doubts about him being abused by Darrien. she certainly seemed aware that they were spending a lot of time together and that it was weird as hell how much older Darrien was. i also question if the age of Donny's abusers, as both Darrien and Martha were significantly older than him, played a role in how gripped he was to them and if - lets say they were younger - they would have the same impact on him. Darrien also seemed to be the one to introduce Donny to drugs beyond weed, and i thought it was interesting how Donny was still abusing drugs (i.e. cocaine when he went to the bar with Teri) even outside of Darrien's presence. it makes me curious as to whether or not Donny suffered from drug addiction and what the extent of it was if so. ultimately, i think from what i've outlined above, i'm just desperate to know more - although completely respect Richard's privacy and he's already been so brave in sharing everything he felt comfortable with and which was necessary to share. even though the show was crazy good and covered A LOT, 7 short episodes can never fully cover someone's 20s and everything they go through. if one day he were to ever publish a novel about the abuse, I would find it fascinating to read. This is probably just wishful thinking on my end, but it kinda seemed like to me he eluded to a potential novel in the show when he erases the witness statement word document, and then starts writing a couple of sentences about how his first encounter with Martha made him feel. this is probably the most stimulating and thought-provoking show i've ever watched. i don't think it's possible to evaluate it solely as a standalone piece of art when most of it happened to Donny in reality. the reason it is so hard hitting, in my opinion, is because it is largely NOT a work of fiction. edit: FINAL THINGS. what i’m probably most curious about is… did the real Martha actually misspell her words like that? if so, that is absolutely terrifying and so creepy. also, it was incredibly fucked up how the police didn’t take Donny (or other victims in general) seriously due to the lack of physical violence threat. that being said, i think one thing that really stands out and speaks volumes as to how Donny did view Martha as a human being is how he didn’t seem afraid to be alone with her. he was okay with dropping her back home that freezing night at the bus stop. he was okay with going over to her place a few times, etc. Martha seems like a very unpredictable character and it wouldn’t surprise me if she had tried to stab Donny or something. in fact, in one of the scenes of the show (unfortunately the one where she meets him by that canal, won’t stop following him, and then gropes him), i initially thought she might have pushed him into the water. i think Donny and Martha definitely shared an unexplainable yet transcendent bond which only the two of them will fully understand.
Martha would have still dove into her stalker behaviors even if he reciprocated. She was in states of obsession and delusion. It wasn’t about dating Donny, she was consumed by the thought of him.
your criticisms are quite valid but i'd give them a pass since this is still a netflix series, it's going to need some of those hollywood moments, so i don't think they detract from the show as a whole, i thought it was still one of the best things i've watched in a few years the scene where he goes back to the producer to me could be that he was trying to face his past to then realise he still wasn't strong enough even after all that happened, to mark how this was going to be something that would stay with him for a long time ps love your accent! :)
I was shocked he went back but have been thinking about it. He is going as a writer on a team- probably in an office. He can call the shots and he knows his rapist hired him knowing he may be outed - I wish I knew more about it- I’d want to close that door but maybe facing it head on as a person with more power may be healing- it could also sink him to a depression. Truth is- he isn’t there now and he wrote this amazing drama and will have made his millions - all the while people who knew about this guy then will now know ALL of it!
Weird I’ve met guys like this they play victim after they’ve slept/used you…I wish parents would really talk to their sons about this nonsense. Sleep with girls or use them that don’t like you lol idk. But yeah seems in a way he is in love with her strange
I think he wanted to face his abuser. Speaking from experience, you can become vitriolic and the experience all-consuming. Being brave led him to more bravery. But he quailed under facing the boss. And we hope he doesn't return to him. It takes on average 7 times to escape an abuser.
I think Donny, as many men in his position frequently do, would have absolutely gone for Martha if she had been attractive to him. But that is NOT a good thing, and it always ends in pain. The situation frequently escalates just as much, if not more, when the object of obsession reciprocates. There is no universe where Donny would have just shagged Martha and it would have had a happy ending (wtaf).
interesting vid, but i disagree with your view on the monologue. it hits hard BECAUSE we already know the things donny had only started to come to terms with, and the tension comes from waiting for past donny to catch up. him finally waking up and articulating his experience more concretely isn't supposed to be a moment of revelation, but of catharsis i get your issues with the subtlety, and i also personally enjoyed episode 1-4 more. however, i don't believe subtlety is always the best way to tell a story, even though i do prefer it most of the time. when a story is supposed to be this self-confrontational, the choice of spelling it out isn't necessarily to hand-hold the audience. it reflects his journey of facing his trauma and shortcomings head-on without hiding behind ambiguity. that being said, there is still ambiguity in the show, particularly in the last scene. i love how different people's interpretations of it are
I appreciate your effort but I think the only good quality analysis of this show has to be through the lens of understanding Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic personality disorder, intimate partner violence, trauma bonding etc. when she learns he has been sexually assaulted and still doesn’t lay off, she has transformed into the true narcissist that she really is. He tears after that point turned my stomach and my sympathy went. I saw her for the true narcissist she is. When Donny goes to his abusers house, it’s because he is still seeking the abuse feedback cycle, and him leaving shows growth. He had an appropriate reaction.
I think he goes to his abuser as a way to connect and he expected some humanity like he found in Martha, and when it became clear Darrien was still just as bad. My hot take
I watched it due to the first video. It had difficult moments, and would be difficult for most people that have experienced trauma. I recommended that others did not watch this series.
agreed the stand up sequence fell a little flat for me too - and then him going viral after felt very tv writing ish to me (so wanted it to be a bojack "free churro" moment). Him going back to his abuser...makes sense for his character (as someone w the same addiction-prone vices and personality). When something like that happened to me, i wanted to return back to my abuser because i felt like only both of us knew what really went down, thank god i had friends to care for me then. Perhaps it could be him seeking that validation or affirmation again in the most fucked up way. Such an interesting point on martha and attractiveness tho, i think his bisexuality and donny also mentions he's not sure if he's fully gay could be a bar to him wanting her in that way, and he's not shown being with women post-assault (up until he met teri and he had issues performing).
12:19 I wasn’t bothered by the monologue bc it was the first scene where he did a performance that was honest. Even “jokey” comedians insert themselves into their sets. Donny never did until that moment.
It Is really hard for me to understand why Donny allowed the rapist to do it all over again. Also, I don't know Donny's previous sex life. I can't see why Martha did not receive psychatric treatment while and after she was in prison. I have always heard that Britain has a good health system. British people could express their opinions about this. I do hope the real Donny and Martha go over their traumas. I wish them all the happiness they deserve.❤
It made me mad, but I know why. He got something out of it, or at least he thought he did. It’s the sunk cost fallacy . He figured it already happened once, what’s one more time in exchange for fame. He figured eventually he’d get the job he wanted from this guy. Some battered women stay because they think they already sunk so much in the relationship that ‘why leave now, maybe this is the last time this happened and now I’ll get what I want. A nice relationship’
I liked Donny and Teri as a couple - but, there were points where I was a bit concerned that she is a therapist. Some of her reactions and/or comments were not appropriate.
You mean to how she acted towards Donny and Martha? I get where you’re coming from, but Teri should be allowed to exist in outside of her role as a therapist. She should have maybe set up some boundaries in the relationship. Due to her role, I’m sure Donny found it appealing to talk to her about martha as he was close to Teri, but can you imagine how draining than must be? Having somebody who supposed to be your boyfriend just become another client. It would be easy to become overwhelmed in that sort of situation, not to mention the physical assault. I think is important to recognise that even though Teri is a therapist, she is also a person with flaws like the rest of us. ❤️
@@madeleine7308 yeah I get what your saying. Shes totally allowed to be her own person and not defined by her job. But there were points where I just felt she was overly harsh. I don’t mean she should become his worker, but as a person who works in mental health myself there’s always a part of you that is switched on. And things like Donny not being able to get it up screams trauma.
One thing that I feel from this show is a lack of a political axe to grind while being in a very touchy space. I was wondering if anyone felt differently?
@@tehhotline4225 Honestly I am struggling to explain what I mean and hoping others can be more helpful at putting things into words... I think I mean that this feels like a very personal story and not a commentary on society or a call for change. But the topics of queerness and how the police deal with mental health issues and the power structure of the media industry could warrant a more.. activist tone. I like however having the themes sink into me on an intimate and emotional level.
I don't think the standup breakdown wasn't to give the audience information. It was an act of public humiliation, self flagellation. Public shame. Trauma makes us put ourselves in a position to show the shame and feel the depth of pain the shame.
I rarely say this but I don’t know how to feel about this being filmed and aired. I know I can’t dictate how people process their trauma or if they share it or not but this whole thing feels gross to me. I feel like I’ve learned something I shouldn’t and I feel disturbed and unsettled about it. That man needs some serious help, reliving all of this extreme trauma publicly is insane and so is starring in it. Everyone just says how amazing he is and how great the show is and I just think the whole thing was vile. Teri was the only good person in it. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills like am I the only one disturbed by this whole thing? Also I feel like the focus was on the wrong person, yes Martha is an awful piece of crap but he was assaulted and nothing happened to him like wtf?
i like that he’s talking about it makes it seem less tabo, makes me feel like i could make something good out of the abuse i went through, they did it in a way that didn’t romanticize and glorify the stalking and drug use and sa. i like that this is creating a dialogue about sa for men and how the police handle stalking/abuse. i think adding the abuse into the show was to explain why he let the stalking go so far and why he like her validation. i do think this man needs serious help but i’m curious what part you think would do damage and why it made you feel gross? i’m wondering if maybe because i went through similar experiences it made me have a weird view on the show?
hmm i'm of 2 minds on this. i remember making a comment about baby reindeer being IMDY for white men (complimentary) and my friend made a note that the difference between michaela and richard is that michaela went to therapy. but either way, both actors made the decision to relive their traumas on screen for an audience. for certain people that is how they choose to process their pain and to a certain degree we have to respect that. hopefully he did get help somewhere down the line; but it does shine a light on how men are expected to process sexual trauma vs women. unfortunately a lot of men do go about life with these deep pockets of trauma like nothing happened and carry their shame like awful secrets in them; but i can't say that was what was shown in the show. because post-assault you see donny narrate his relationship with having lots of meaningless, dangerous, borderline assault based sexual encounters, increasing in risk taking behaviours that could get him killed, his addiction to extremely violent pornography, and also his inability to consummate normally with people when there's feelings involved which contributed to the disconnect between him and teri when they were trying to get intimate. so i do agree, it is a disturbing journey through a man reliving his trauma but he did show what the consequences of that awful ordeal and what it did to him mentally, and we can only hope he's getting much better help now. it speaks a lot to the importance of community and having a safe space such as his ex gf inviting him to move back in with them and his family accepting his sexuality helped his life move forwards in a positive direction somewhat.
@@aela5521 I can say that it’s a very real depiction of how humans handle things. People don’t always process or respond to traumatic events the way people think they should, so I can appreciate him showing that. I can also appreciate how he didn’t try to make himself look good, most people think he was extremely unlikeable before the assault part is shown. I hate this made me stick up for the police here because he hid a ton of information from them and sabotaged his own case. I can’t even say whether or not they would’ve handled it properly given the chance because he didn’t let them. As far as this doing damage I don’t think it will but I can see various groups of people taking issue with different parts of this though. The real part that is disturbing me his him reenacting his own assault, it’s too far for me. I won’t tell him what he should be doing, I can only say how it made me feel and that’s awful. Writing a book or a script is one thing, but directing, filming and reenacting his assault is something I can’t handle. That’s nothing to do with him but my own issue. So many terrible things happened in this and it just hits your like a freight train over and over. Martha got locked up and the assaulter is free. It may be realistic but it’s a very heavy piece of material that I can’t describe as great or must see. Just a bunch of awful events back to back on film
@@amk4MK agreed I won’t tell him how he should process what happened to him, I can only say it left me heavily disturbed. Placing the assault towards the end gives it a different framework then it would have if they would’ve led with it. I’m so conflicted with all this but I have to hand it to him, I haven’t felt this way about a show/film in a long while. I certainly do hope he’s getting or received some help for all this.
I felt like it was holding a mirror up at me since I felt how on earth could he possibly put this out there so bare, so vulnerable when it’s such monumental trauma and I don’t know whether that was my internalised shame of victimhood because of how we’re conditioned to view it in society or what but I’m glad that he did and it’s something I’m defo gonna look at in myself
I think Stalking is complicated because people have freedom and we don't want to bring the police in for every dispute. Frankly the honest truth is that police don't have the staff. They more and more are being forced to handle minor social issues and they don't have the people to do it. This entire show imho shows why stalking shouldn't be something police make more important because Donnie completely encouraged her and clearly caused the situation.
I saw another video about this series and they were overly sympathetic to Martha in that video. They were talking about her like she was some abused heroine with borderline personality disorder that needs love and compassion etc.
No one says this but clearly Donnie liked Martha. He did lead her on. Perhaps that is her issue. There is a scene where he can only have relations with Teri by thinking of her. Cause Martha is fat and that is worse than any taboo.
Teri hit the nail on the head, Donny doesn't like Martha, he likes what Martha gives him. He likes the adoration. The reason he was picturing Martha is not because he had romantic feelings for her, but because he couldn't have actual safe intimate sex due to his abuse. He needed a level of derangement to get aroused where manifested itself in picturing sex with his stalker, one of the most self destructive fantasies he could come up with.
But I did wonder when I watched the show, what is he found her sexually attractive when he met her? If the other men at the bar told him she was hot, that he should be flattered, should just have sex with her. What kind of abusive relationship that could have been.
He liked that she was the only one to pay attention to him.... she saw something that no one else saw in him and he liked her company.... for a time and couldn't quite slam the door because of that. But I don't think he was ever into her as a romantic/sexual partner.
I couldnt agree more with this! You could not have said it any better. Ngl It does bother me i keep seeing comments where some assume and doubt its real at all or they assume hes just trying to paint himself out to be victim and is probably lying. People really need to understand the psychological effects that extreme abuse it can have before having assumptions on it being truthful or not but i do understand their confusion. Some victims can end up having stockholm syndrome for their abuser after experiencing a fk tonne of trauma (google it its actually very interesting) which explains why Ryan resulted into trauma bonding with martha in some weird fucked up way. Also will explain why he kept going back to the guy that SA him.. That and also a lack of boundaries, self respect and self worth. He looked to martha and darrien for validation and acknowledgement bc they both made him feel seen and heard. you can tell he is being raw and honest from the way that he dealt with the trauma. he did a very accurate representation of how shame can completely shatter and destroy your soul. it creates so much shame and self hatred. it eats away at you. he felt he couldnt open up to anyone around him which on a personal level, i can understand and resonate to a T. he wouldnt have known anything about the physiological affects of trauma and what it was doing to his brain. he hated himself and it would've completely deteriorated his mental health and the way he perceived himself that he would've actually believed he wasnt worthy or good enough hence why he kept going back to the abuse i.e lack of boundaries. he knew it was wrong on some level but still chose to be mistreated and allowed the abuse to continue (which i will be honest frustrated me at times but it is also something i can relate to within my own experience) what i most love about it is he was actually extremely honest about how he played a part in the abuse and you could tell he didnt try to victimise himself in any way he was good at displaying his naivety in the show and the choices and mistakes he made within the abuse itself. i 100% believe him. i think people find it hard to believe bc they 1. havent been through a similar experience or 2. their lack of knowledge of the brain and how trauma works or 3. not many people have been as authentic and as raw as ryan has with the abuse as he has.. it's a overall shameful thing to admit to the world so i can see why ppl are conflicted. not many would share their abuse worldwide which is why i personally love this show. its the most authentic show i have ever seen my whole 24 years of living.
Your first analysis ltrly pushed me to watch baby reindeer and i loved the show! it absolutely did remind me a lot of i may destroy you in terms of the themes of cyclical patterns that the main characters display, same dark tone but beautiful humorous moments; an all-round very nuanced story about sexual trauma and returning to familiar patterns and how it can affect other areas of your life and the people around you and a very powerful story. only difference is donny is a much more passive character than arabella - they both displayed self destructive tendencies whereas arabella is very type A and less people-pleasy.
i also agree with your alternative ending; at that point he was already kind of regressing into familiar patterns - abandoning opportunities to obsess over her "past" and what made her the way she was even after she had been locked up, and then agreeing to a writers role on his abusers reboot - it would've lined up much more if he was skulking around her prison where she was locked up and maybe they caught eyes and it ended there. we already saw his history of following her home before so it wouldn't be a stretch.
Going to pin this as I legit couldn’t agree more
Totally bang on and I love your thoughts on a different ending
Thank you so much for watching!
@@marshallstannus you're so welcome! i'm a huge fan of your channel and i love your recommendations, you always have a great way of analysing them. keep doing you mate!
The final scene meant something different to me. He was in the position that she was in the beginning and was treated kindly by a bartender who felt sorry for him just as he did her that first day. When his bartender felt sorry for him he realized that a “normal”person can be treated with empathy and kindness by a stranger and not interpret it as anything more than what it is. I think that it’s the beginning of his coming to terms with having treated her kindly that first day. He recognizes that his kindness should not have been taken as an invitation. And that he wasn’t “asking for it.”
He basically gets to see his initial kind gesture from her point of view. He has to realize in that moment that he was simply kind to the wrong person.
I assume that he’ll be having these moments of recognizing where he was culpable and where he was not as he continues to process what happened.
This is the best explanation I've heard yet. It makes more sense than him becoming her. More in line with what happens in real life, I think. Thanks!
I think that is close to what I felt too. I was just hoping that the barman would be kind as the message "kindness to strangers is a bad thing" would be a sour way to end the show. But I still felt that it was an off way to end things. Not really a strong enough or clear enough message for a final beat. The voicemails were a better ending to the themes for me.
I agree it was permission to stop self blaming
I didn't get that interpretation from the final scene I saw it as the perpetuation of a cycle. Donny had overcome almost everything that was holding him back and was almost completely honest with himself bar one staggering truth, the dangers of his obsessive personality.
Teri confronts him on it while in their apartment, the reason why he'd let something go so far is because despite him being a victim, he definitely chose to indulge in Matha despite knowing he was a liar and that she was obviously mentally ill. He says in his speech that it was due to wanting to be admired but I don't think that's it. I think Donny seeks anchors, he needs someone to attach himself to so that he can blind himself when he makes a bad decision.
Donny met Martha after his comedy career was going to shit, he anchored himself to her as to not relieve his failure, same with his girlriend, after the festival and Teri as a consequence of meeting Martha.
That's why I don't think that barman giving him a drink for free meant anything good. He just made a catastrophically horrible decision moments prior and he found someone new to obsess over to drive him from his mistakes. I think in that moment he realised how similar both he and Martha are, both would-be success stories if not for their needs for anchors.
Problem is, u're speaking about it as if giving her tea was all he did. No one deserves to be stalked, but he absolutely bears some responsibility for playing w/ obvious fire & indulging a clearly unwell woman to feed his own ego. What happened w/ Martha is not really analogous to a S/A or grooming.
I personally think he went to his abuser because Martha was gone and he needed the positive affirmation. It also clearly shows how abusers really aren’t seen as evil. They flatter you. They make you feel good. And despite popular opinion, they often aren’t physically violent like we think of it.
They are little cockroaches that find the empty spot inside to crevice into & exploit.
Perfectly said
He met the writer before he met Martha tho, he had just gone through that and then met her
@@rheamiears6097that doesn't make OP's point invalid
You nailed it.
One thing that made the final couple of episodes great for me was his parents. I really liked them both and their reactions felt true. The scene where Donny both comes out and says he was raped was something I had to watch a few times. It got me every time when his father revealed his own abuse.
“Would you think differently of me?” Full body chills and streaming tears
Donny is such a great character because he infuriates me but at the same time I just wanna give him a hug and tell him how much he matters.
Richard Gadd said he changed Martha's character completely so people couldn't find out who she was in real life so my theory is she was actually attractive and that's why things got so far and he felt flattered by her admiration in the beginning
She was actually a significantly older woman.
Yeah they kept saying she was middle aged and the actress playing Martha is only 38. (And Richard Gadd is 34 although he is playing 27-28) I think the real woman must have been in her 50s.
Unfortunately, the internet sleuths have found her and she closely resembles the actress that played her. And they also Found the director, who as of last week has stepped down from his role and he too bares a close resemblance to the actor that played him.
@@African_Melody She's much older. So I don't see a ton of resemblance.
@@African_Melody whats the real marthas name
The trauma bonding wiith both abusive characters (Martha and the tv writer Darrien) is what makes this programme really unique for me. The reasons victims feel compassion for abusers and keep going back is a trauma response. Thank you for naming this as trauma bonding.
I think he went back to Darien with the intention of confronting him and getting answers/closure but he just couldn't go through with it because he was still scared of him and wanted/needed something from him(approval?praise? A job which he ultimately gets offered?)
Yes I think there's this pervasive idea that you need closure. To confront your abuser in some way. But if you get to the point of seeing them again it's likely fear will lead you back to old patterns. The best thing to do is leave and never look back but it can leave people feeling like things are unresolved or that you're "weak" for never standing up to them in person.
Society also perpetuates this idea, people want neat endings. They want victims to forgive (esp if the abuser is family) or confront (if the abuser is seen as a villain).
I actually really enjoyed the way the public breakdown scene occurred specifically because of how dramatic it was. Like you said, we as the audience kind of knew the inner workings and thoughts of Donny, so none of what he said was really a new revelation, but once you consider the on-screen audience, you realize that although we might know all of this is going on, they have no idea. Really the only people in the room who even knew about Martha during this moment were his coworkers, and they didn’t sympathize or even understand the extent of how bad it was for him. I mean they even went out of their way to engage with Martha in a way that made the situation worse for him, like making jokes about their “relationship” to try to embarrass him and egg her on, sending her that email from Donny’s account to insinuate that he had sexual interests towards her, and completely disregarding his concern about her frequently coming into his place of work because they found her entertaining. They directly escalated the situation by feeding into her delusions and giving her the ability to cross boundaries. Even when the situation escalated to Donny literally being attacked by her in the bar, they were more concerned with the fact that they would get in trouble for allowing the situation to happen in the first place than the fact that Donny was in danger. In their minds, Donny’s situation was more or less a joke, so having him completely lay out the extent of his pain and all of the things he was going through not only to complete strangers, but to these people who had been watching it unfold in front of them without really seeing it for what it was, and intentionally making it worse, was extremely impactful. It showcased that very specific catharsis of finally confessing all of the things he’s been holding in for so many years, and in a fucked up way getting back at these people who had intentionally and unintentionally had a hand in causing this trauma by putting them on display, speaking directly to them during this confession in a “what do you have to say now, huh?” kind of way. Obviously, the scene didn’t play out exactly the way it did in real life, but the feeling of finally letting himself come to terms with everything and finally say it all in one big moment in front of everyone rather than having to come to terms with it alone by himself is something I’m sure many victims of abuse think about regularly. The idea of being able to just tell the people involved how their actions have impacted your life so directly, and not letting them have the excuse of ignorance anymore. Being able to out both the abusers and the bystanders who allowed it to happen, as often times (and specifically in his situation) there is a certain extent of blame to be placed in the people who knew and did nothing about it. As someone who has experienced sexual trauma, I have fantasized about having this exact type of blowup confession out of nowhere simply for the sake of being seen when I’m hurting the most. The act of wanting to just burst out and say it all even if it’s inappropriate just because you can’t hold it in anymore. Idk it can be hard to understand this type of thinking unless you’ve experienced it firsthand, but it definitely felt real to me. I’m not going to speak about Richard’s experience on that bc obviously I don’t know, but it felt very intentional that Donny would have this sort of outburst; it was almost inevitable with the way his character spent the whole series suppressing all of his emotions and experiences that he would have to just get them all out at once in order to even begin processing it. And although Richard didn’t have this kind of big public breakdown, just the fact that he’s using this scene to portray his experience of processing these emotions screams to me that he at least fantasized about this kind of messy public confession at some point as well.
Fantastic comment, didn’t think about it this way, maybe I should’ve!
Best comment Iv read about this!!
This!
100% agree and relate to the whole fantasy thing. And now that you've highlighted this moment, to me, it's like Richard's way of kind of saying (even though it didn't really happen in real life that way), his writing out this life experience and now putting it into live acting performances is basically how that felt. Like he's finally just standing up and releasing this publicly. So essentially, he *did* Do this, but just not exactly in this manner. Does that makes sense? Because he did do the one man shows prior to this netflix series. So in a way, this whole thing is his "youtube" moment.
I also agree. That moment is meant for the audience in terms of learning something new about Donny, it’s about Donny finally no longer hiding in the dark. He’s no longer holding it all in. Just as he’s said, he can’t handle all the pain, hurt and trauma on his own anymore. The very VERY step to any kind of recovery is acceptance, and Donny being vulnerable on stage like that and trauma dumping is showing that’s he’s finally ready to properly heal. He’s ready to talk about it, no matter how painful talking about it and revisiting the past and letting the memories he’s tried so hard to run from and repress may be. And the audience gets to see Donny have the catharsis and character changing/growing moment.
I think the end of the show is just to show us that he understood the impact of his kindness on Martha on a day when she felt worthless. I think it added value
When he returned to his abuser and agreed to work with him as paid employment, at first his expression was elated and surprised. But after the agreement, his face fell again. Then in the next scene we see him crying on a bench. Was that because he realized what had just happened, how easily he was sucked back in, and the understanding that he couldn't go back as he'd agreed? I think so.
I couldn't understand why he accepted a job from the abuser
@@thewrongshoes because he was addicted to feeling like that. The whole situation gave him a rush. That's why afterwards he had an anxiety attack after realizing what he had just done. He was addicted to them both (his abuser and Martha) giving him praise and compliments and then making him feel like shit. He was obssesed with it.
@@thewrongshoesI think he wanted to confront him, but folded immediately. At that moment, he wasn't ready, and defaulted to his more agreeable, passive side. Only when he got out did he realise he let himself get taken advantage again. Just like when he went to the police to report Martha. That's my interpretation of it anyways
LONG message incoming haha. I hope people read on because I've put a lot of thought into communicating about this show, and I come from a place of spending my entire 20s trying to work my trauma out so I relate a lot to Donny, though my story is not as extreme I think my trauma and self awareness gives me a unique understanding of the tragic but understandable motivations behind self sabotage.
@thewrongshoes Having similar trauma to Donny (albeit with way less crazy results), I recognised what was happening in Donny in the moment he turns back to the writer.
As to why Donny descends back into hell, if you will, I believe there's multiple things going on simultaneously. First, I think Donny is a lonely person at his core, and he's seeking love the only place he thinks he can get it. I think this is due to abandonment trauma from emotional neglect in his childhood - probably from his dad, but maybe his mum too. Even though his relationship with his parents blossoms in the series, on the inside I think there's still a baby who is crying out for love that never came and that because it never came, he believes he is unworthy of. That inner child needs to be heard and loved before Donny can heal and can stop picking bad apples, as it were. That's what it's like inside the world of an adult who was chronically emotionally neglected in their childhood. Doesn't mean his parents weren't great people and even great parents, just that they weren't whole enough in themselves to raise an emotionally healthy child. So after losing his stalker and his girlfriend in one fell swoop, both of which he feels he is to blame for losing, he is completely alone in the world again and that kind of loneliness will drive people to hell's door for a crumb of love.
Second, I think Donny feels like he's spun out of control and has passed the point of no return, at which point all bets are off. Too much has happened to him, he's fallen too far, and perhaps something in him breaks and he no longer has the fight in him to resist his own terribly tragic impulse towards seeking out danger. People who grew up feeling emotionally unsafe will choose emotionally unsafe people to get close to because the inner child accepts the love it thinks it deserves.
Thirdly, it could be a cry for help - Donny is acting out to shock himself and others and to yell to the world how bad things have gotten in his life. I've done similar things. Shit gets so bad and you're so scared and helpless to change your situation that you do things you would never have dreamed of before, just to show yourself and others that IT IS THAT BAD and something needs to be done.
Lastly, I wonder if Donny is at the end of a kind of villain origin story where he believes so strongly that he's bad to the bone that he's given up on ever living a happy life at that moment, and if you're the villain there's no need to try to save yourself any more.
And I haven't even covered Donny's relationship to fame, which I believe also traces its roots back to abandonment trauma. The same reason he entertains his stalker is the reason he wouldn't give up on making his big break - because he has a hole at his centre where his parent's/parents' love should have been, and a common way people try to fill that hole is by proving themselves as talented to THE WORLD. He's not only returning to a toxic person but to a toxic dream - the dream of finally being good enough to win the world over as a comedian because he couldn't win his parent's love as just himself, just Donny.
There are a few options for you! Let me know what y'all think. Thank you for letting me spiel, I just want to spend the whole day teasing this show apart!
@@thewrongshoes he's not thinking right in that moment, look at that body language he is having a trauma response and just did what he knows best, which is to be agreeable. That is why the moment he's away he ends up having a panic attack. At least that's how I understand it. But i could totally be biased because that was my experience. I went up to my abuser thinking I could confront him or show him I am so strong and poof immediately before I knew it or could stop it I was being meek, and agreeable and obedient and speaking softly and avoiding eye contact. All sense only came back once I was physically away from his presence and I learnt my lesson.
Martha is really one of the most interesting "villain" characters I've ever seen. She is sympathetic, but quickly goes too far in her compliments and attention. She's abused, but also an abuser. She's sad and pathetic, but also one of the scariest characters I've seen in tv. In the end, I didn't just want her arrested or with a restraining order, I just wanted her to get the help that she needed.
Donny is also so interesting as a protagonist. He's a coward, needy, makes so many wrong decisions, but especially in episode 4 we learn a bit of how and why he became that way. Great writing and great performances from both!
I felt this way about Judy from Dead To Me!!! Although she's much more of a sympathetic character and less of a villain, but she's SO messy and multifaceted and human.
I believe I read somewhere that she didn't actually get jailed for stalking Richard, precisely because Richard felt bad about her situation and wanted her to get help. Also something along the lines of him not feeling it was okay to get her imprisoned when he held himself responsible for encouraging so much of it.
I think he went back to check if he is over that trauma. When he leaves, he shows symptoms of PTSD, it looks like a panic attack, so he obviously not over it. Ppl often do this when they want to 'test' themselves, if a person, a place etc. caused trauma for them. If you face with it, and you do not get upset, you are over it.
Yeah, I did this back then, but it ended up traumatizing me further.
Him going back to the abuser is very common. I am friends with someone who wa abused as a child by their step parents. This person is now in their 30s, and still hangs around the step parent. They confronted the abuser, sort of, and decided to still be in their lives.
Yes! This is quite common. What I also thought of was (a) "cotton mouth" was a project he wanted to be part of initially (before the abuse) and (b) him going back to work with his abuser could be the typical "I went through this extreme abuse, so I should get something from it".
@@nonduduzomkhize8249yep! Sunk cost fallacy. He kept coming back by essentially rationalizing it as ‘it already happened once, what’s a few more times at this point to get what I want’
This show is amazing. I love that it was told from the perspective of a man who just can’t stay away from his stalker because of his own insecurity and trauma. We have heard this story 1 million times from women and women are scorned and criticized for going back. Maybe now that a man is coming out with a story people will take it seriously. I hate that that’s the way it is but that’s the way it is. People believe men.
I took his breakdown as him talking to himself. It was a very public self-realization
I see it differently from you. The part where he breaksdown on stage was not for the audience but for him. It was the power of the MeToo movement, to come out and put voice to his abuse story publicly.
For me him coming back is not necessarly about how easy it is to fall back into being a victim. Partially yes, but as a result, the REASON was that sometimes, for some people, being SOMEBODY (as an artist, comedian, or as a hetronormative ideal of man) is more important than feeling peace but exist as NOBODY no matter what the cost is. One thing about this show that made me shocked, uncomfortable but also in awe is how Dunn didnt stray away from being raw and completely honest about his mistakes, motivations and shortcomings. He wrote the show, he acted in it and he could have serve us the polished version of what happened, but he kept it raw and honest and i think that is very brave.
A lot of people say he went back to his abuser and kept Martha around because they made him feel seen, with the validation and praise. But I don't understand why the validation he got from the more "better adjusted" people in his life wasn't enough? Like he had that nice girlfriend, Keeley I think was her name. In the few scenes with her, I felt she really cared for him. Even during acting class, she gave a shit about him. And then Terry, she was just amazing. And yeah he was in love with her, but still threw it away because of Martha? Even his parents, they didn't seem particularly distanced or bad. Why the need to seek validation from fucked up people?
The best thing about this show is the vulnerability shown not just in his own admissions some of which could be perceived as embarrassing to some but also in how the other characters are written, many of which don’t show him in a good light but he included it anyway.
Everyone has sympathy for Martha because she represents parts of us. The difference between victim and perpetrator is complex and grey. We are all human and each of us, could be either one of them. The actress was incredible ❤️
Spot on, thank you.
I liked that they didn't mention Martha's body size. This, to me, seemed irrelevant to their relationship (analyzing only the fictional characters here). Donny might have been mostly drawn to trans women at the time, or maybe he wasn't actively looking for a partner - as we were shown he wasn't planning to fall in love with Teri, she was just one person out of many that he dated in order to figure out his own sexuality. To me everything points to Donny and Martha's deep and immediate click being a bond caused by prior trauma. Therefore it doesn't matter _why_ he wasn't sexually attracted to her (it might as well have been due to her being cis or due to the age gap which was addressed as a potential problem several times), he just wasn't.
Donny starting to masturbate to her picture seemed more like a stress response than anything - I did not interpret this as actual sexual attraction.
In fact Martha didn't seem sexually attracted to Donny either - she clearly loved him and became obsessed with the thought of him being her boyfriend, but the sexual thoughts she expressed seemed compulsive and more a means to control him and the situation - I don't think what she expressed were pure sexual feelings or desires, rather it seemed to come from a desire to feel safe and protected. Others may not agree, but I do think that we have here two characters that both have confused other complex emotions and basic needs with sexuality and sexual attraction.
Okay, that's it, you've done it, I've GOT to binge the whole thing again! 🤣 It's so nuanced - the scenes, the emotions (theirs and mine) and empathies shift like bits of glass in a kaleidoscope. I don't agree with your observation in part one about the final scene, which you felt was a little "on the nose". I'm not smart enough (emotionally or academically) to articulate why I disagree, but I think it was something to do with the fact that Donny said, "It's an arrogant, patronising feeling, feeling sorry for someone you've only just laid eyes on...". For me, I don't see that last scene being about Donny in the "same spot as Martha..." - rather it made me look directly at myself as observer & judge watching their story for the first time. The arrogance that I could ever truly understand the complexities of their story or indeed, however hard I try, my own.
I disagree. You are smart enough to articulate anything you choose. Express yourself beautifully. Beautifully.
@@8swerve That's gonna sit with me for a while. Thank you.
You said you couldn't articulate it, then articulated it and pretty well if I do say so myself ... we can all be our own worst critics sometimes. I understood exactly what you meant. Give yourself more credit 😊
@@BlayzMonet Thank you! 💚And you're right: "The bad things are easier to believe..." - Vivian Ward.
The ending where Donny goes back to his abuser means a lot to me. To me it felt like he went back to the only thing he had left. The only "normal" thing that he knew was still around. To feel a sense of connection when all others are gone.
I was also confused that he went back and I need to watch it all again to try and make sense of what I saw but I feel like maybe once he confronted himself with what happened he felt the need to confront his abuser. But seeing him face to face might have felt too real and he caught him off guard when he said he'd already seen the video. Then he's looking directly at him which is terrifying. Like, yes I know that you know what I've done to you. So when Darrien makes that offer and Donny says yes, he might not have been agreeing to working with him at all. He might have just felt paralysed as he did when Darrien first made a move or when Martha groped him by the canal. The job offer itself might even not be a real job offer. It might be just a tactical way of bullying him into silence. If that's what happened, then he'd be crying for having missed the opportunity for whatever closure he thought the meeting would give him.
Anyway, brilliant show. Brilliantly written, shot and acted by everyone. Yes, Martha steals the show a bit but everyone's perfect. Hope he settles for being the bravest man ever instead of just being the funny guy.
I saw the monologue as a moment where Donny confronts himself. And it had little to do with revealing his hardships to an audience. The whole series is from his perspective, and he was never truly himself the way that he was in his head/with the viewer. So his moment of brutal honesty was, I think, when his cognitive dissonance couldn’t sustain anymore. I feel like his return to Darrien’s was showcasing how difficult it is to break toxic patterns as a victim.
Richard Gadd delivers a captivating performance as Donny, alongside Jessica Gunning's compelling portrayal of Martha. Stephen King aficionados will find echoes of Annie Wilkes, the chillingly twisted protagonist brilliantly played by Kathy Bates, in King's seminal 1987 novel and its gripping 1990 film adaptation, "Misery."
My take on the ending when he goes back to his abuser is basically what he said when he told his story on stage he loves hating himself after he leaves he listens to the recordings Martha left saying all these postive things about him.
This abuser was in his eyes his big break into the entertainment industry. He endured all the abuse who shuttered his personality, emotions. When he saw the positive feedback on his script on the last episode, he thought it was time to see if there was going to be a reward { what hew was originally promised}. He had lost so much at that point he was at the lowest point in his life, so by going back he could either collect what was owed to him, or put it to rest.
We need to remember that it’s a true story like him not doing all the smart things he should’ve done is because he’s telling it from his perspective. He makes that clear in an interview that he knows he should’ve been different around the police
I feel like the monologue scene was probably something that was originally put in the screenplay as a soliloquy because they didn’t have as much narration as they did in the TV series. The scene probably read so powerfully they just couldn’t bear to part with it but in the show it just wasn’t as necessary
I feel Donny going back to his abuser was him trying to confront him, only to allow himself to be taken advantaged again. I've had experiences where I get motivated to do something or say something only to clam up immediately. Donny has shown himself to be socially awkward and very agreeable/passive under pressure. Like how he made an innuendo towards Martha to get out of a stressful situation. If Donny had done it later on, when he had grown to be more confident in himself, I think he could've succeeded, but at that moment he just wasn't ready enough to handle it, and defaulted to his more agreeable/passive side.
I suspect that I don’t have the same ability at critical appreciation as yourself Marshal, however I did find that the ending did resonate for me even if it was obvious and perhaps unnecessary for you. Thanks for your excellent insights.
4:30 I thought he was going to kill the abuser so I was a LITTLE disappointed he went back and just..accepted the job?
He’d be in jail if he did that.
But that is how it happens in real life. We all think we would be able to do what you said in such a situation but it's seldom the case.
@@beewest5704 that is very true!!
Yeah, I kinda had the same question to 9:58 that if Martha were more of his type, would he endure more? She could have been much more sinister, if she were to have "the look" that could give her a pass to do anything to his life. And yes, she may not call him baby reindeer, but "you" instead ... just like Joe goldberg.
First- thanks for your intelligent & insightful vids on this show.
As to the part where it appears that he's returning to his abuser- I read it as an indication of how hard dreams die- that even after what took place he so wants fame (external validation) that he'll consider it.
As to the on-stage breakdown (which was so beautiful visually) - they would have needed 3 more episodes to show what actually happened! Pure logistics...
In the States we have a bit of a different definition of stalking. It doesn't need to be a clear and violent threat, it can merely be inappropriate physical proximity, like a co-worker suddenly appearing at your kids' football game, or birthday party, multiple times, despite being asked not to, or the hanging out at the bus stop that Martha does. This is probably because we have the additional quirk of having access to firearms. On each of the half-dozen occasions where Martha threatens to stab Donny or his ex or Teri, substitute a gun and you would have a very different scenario. I'm not saying we "do it better" so much as I say we have to do it differently because of the access to guns that stalkers have here, particularly a lawyer, who would be given a carry permit for a pistol as an officer of the court. (I never thought Martha was lying about being a lawyer - I thought she probably was one at some point, but had a psychotic break and had never managed to balance her medications properly. Just my theory.)
I had a similar reaction to the breakdown scene as you although I think we have to think of it as sort of a stand-in for the play he ended up doing in real life. In real life he did actually start telling his story It just wasn't an impromptu breakdown it was a plate he wrote.
And that did lead his career opportunities and sort of the therapy he needed.... But of course that wouldn't have work timeline wise with the show.
I personally think donny is more dangerous and toxic than his stalker, I also think he encouraged her behaviour when he could have stopped it. Personally I think donny is a very dangerous man
He is more a danger to himself while Martha is a danger to those around her.
The stalker isn't the point to this show... Its about abuse, low self asteem, confusion, and the effect it can have on men...
Based on your comments, you have very little understanding of how abuse trauma and PTSD work. You use the term 'trauma-bonding,' but again I'm not convinced that you truly understand what it means. Donny was not obsessed with Martha. His behaviors were completely in line with someone who's been groomed by their abuser.The effect is similar to drug addiction, in that the substance controls the victim's mind and actions. By this point, Martha literally controlled Donny's thoughts and behaviors. What I find difficult to believe is that neither psych major Keeley or licensed therapist Teri figured out tthat this was what's happening to Donny. Esp. for Teri, and based on Donny's mental state, it should've been obvious. What drove me crazy was every time that both women would blame Donny, or allege that he 'liked' what was going on. Perhaps if Donny were a woman, they would've been quicker to assess what was really happening to him. This further emphasizes the truth thst male trauma and abuse are too often minimized and taken less seriously.
Regarding the theory that things would've been different if Donny had been attracted to Martha. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Martha is an abuser with psychotic tendencies. She is severel;y menttally ill. That has absolutely nothing to do with her physical appearance. Martha did not love Donny in a way that was healthy or nurturing..Had Martha been younger and beautiful, she still would've manifested those same psychotic behaviors and probably caused even greater damage to Donny's psyche'...
After Martha is sent to prison, Donny continues listening to her voice messages and thinking about her. This is not obsession, this is PTSD. And it is extremely common in trauma abuse survivors. Compare Donny's condition to a soldier that returns home from war but can't fully accept that the war is really over. They continue replaying the trauma in their heads, because they are unable to detach themselves from it. It's why Donny returned to Darrien's apartment- because by that time the trauma is so deeply engrained that it now feels normal. It's also the reason why soldiers, who've completed multiple tours and survived return home and end up committing suicide.
Just because an abuser has been caught or locked up doesn't mean their victim instantly recovers from the trauma. By the end of the series, Donny is probably at his most vulnerable, and is most susceptible to seriously harming himself.
Unlike Fleabag and Arabella in IMDY ... Donny doesn't seem like a type-A personality. Actually, he's more of an Asher/Nathan (another character I still find hard to quit). In that they both seem to have a submissive personality type. So much so that humiliation and being controlled form the peak contours of their erotic tapestry.
I suppose the nature of manhood can be a universal struggle for most men in their 20's and 30's. But it seems like Baby Reindeer is just at the beginning of the journey. Because S&M feels like the lifestyle that he eventually adopts and fully embraces. I can only hope Richard Gadd finds some new artistic way to share what he discovers next.
I think one of the reasons that Donny goes back to the abuser at the end was in an effort to humanise him. He’d done these terrible acts to him and completely upended his life, and in turn had give him so much power. But he went back so he could see what had reeled him in in the first place, very similarly to the last bar scene where he realised that he wasn’t to blame for Martha’s actions - kind of comparing that the abuser and how easy it was to trust him, he could see how it wasn’t his fault
You put this show on my radar! What a ride!
I'd like to give my opinion but I'm still digesting what I just watched. Speechless and thoroughly entertained. The writing, acting, scene production 🤌🏼... and Martha oh Martha! The Heavens conspired to grace us with her presence!! That actress slayed her part... I do agree a few episodes at the end you can tell they were running out of steam and it kind of dragged but it was a minor discomfort compared to the whole
How can you blame the police? He didn’t tell them the full story about what happened? He delayed telling them her name and then he didn’t report her assault on Teri.
As far as him going back to his abuser, I think he had the intention of working with him again but then didn’t. Teri was right, he loves chaos in his life. Whenever Martha left him alone he started obsessing over her all over again. Listening to her voicemails all the time even after she was locked up.
It’s interesting to think that Teri framed it as Donny loving chaos, but I always extended it to Donny’s character as like “who is he, if not the chaos in his life” how he naturally connects and places chaos as the purpose of who he is. Which just creates another layer.
Yeah he was mad the police won't do anything until something violent happens but he didn't report the two times the stalker WAS violent .
@@thewrongshoeshe didn’t want to report her because he never reported his own rape. He thought everyone else was okay with shrugging it off and carrying on. He didn’t realize that the way people were reacting was normal and he was the abnormal one
I think it became more tell than show in some episodes cause although we are able to understand what is being displayed, there are so many people who have poor comprehension skills that just need it to be said to them.
You said the breakdown scene was repetitive for you but as a victim of some of the shit the character went through, I also understand the need to get it spelled out for myself... It's like in some part of the back of my mind I know what happened to me was fucked up, and that it had a name, but some part of me wanted to believe that if I didn't name it it didn't happen to me, naming the shit was cathartic and driving towards healing so i totally get the breakdown scene
When i saw the ending that he returned to his abuser, i understood it as a false sense of power. For a victim, there is a rollarcoaster of emotions of how they understand a situation. Therefore, the ending meant he felt like he was in control again after feeling like he wasnt. For example, he just did a show that revealed these issues; he also just got Martha into jail...i think he is probably thinking that he has the control over all situations, including facing the abuser now and starting a show.
I think he came back to Darrien because he needed the validation, the attention and the "cultural" exchange he offered. I hated that part but I think it was the most realistic part. I think Donny is still a victim after coming back again and again to that suffering. It is pattern and it is comforting for him, in a twisted way.
I have known people like Donny and I have lost patience with them. Now I feel more compassionate thanks to that show.
literally stopped halfway through this video and watched it for like 5 hours straight
Agree with you on the ending with his abuser. At first I thought he would go back but then he had a breakdown at what transpired.
Him going back “You become the thing you hate the most” most of his life he has been relieving about his abuse “if you stare at the abyss the abyss gazes back” that became him eventually, you become the Beast you feed.
Dr Kirk Honda on the Psychology in Seattle channel has just begun a deep dive into this show - well worth watching.
As are your takes - thank you.
Donny wasn’t the perfect partner to Teri, neither was Teri being the best partner she could be to Donny. So it’s essentially telling of their dynamics as people, not just people being involved in this strangely complex yet enthralling relationship. Martha showing up in places where she shouldn’t really did feel unsettling to the core. Baby Reindeer isn’t just a stalking-centered show. It’s about people, how their minds work, how they get entangled in these circumstances, how they seem to be working towards getting the freedom that they’ve always wanted to have, and lastly, it highlights just how vile, cruel, emotionally manipulative people could be towards the weak. As mentioned previously, Donny, Martha, and Teri aren’t perfect people. They pretty much defined what it means to live in such a perfectly chaotic world and how to navigate through the perils of hardships. This is a stream of consciousness, so probably I’ve stumbled here and there, and that being said, my apologies for that.
Fantastic comment
He knows now for fame you have to work with the likes of his abuser there is no other way in.... The demonstration of the character of a person that is abused was outstanding. I am so moved by this show ❤
The viral plot point felt a bit too Dear Evan Hansen, I agree, the one man play itself being him taking back power is way better
YESS MY BROTHER!!! At last.. You hit the nail on the head. How much of this show is a drug fuelled version of his crazy life. A failed comic that is wooed by a writer?? He knew he was rubbish, so what was his thinking? A cleaver guy manipulating shit to make a story?? Why is the biggest hitting part of the story NOT the biggest part of the debate?
i went into this show blind.. i didn't know it was Gadd was playing a fictionalized version of himself, i thought he was just a actor.. knowing that i think the stand-up breakthrough moment was something he written for himself as a way of telling his new audience watching the show how he wish he could've broken through.. if that makes sense..
Even if that part was fiction, It really broke me. There are times I wish I could just stop hating myself for every decisions I’ve made in life after any of the traumas. Yes, we knew what was happening in the episode but sometimes there are people who do not understand all the connections trauma can shape you as a person. Actually, I never realized how much it can impact a person. And even though it seems like there wasn’t any closure…I think we’re all just trying to make sense of life after trauma. Well, maybe not everyone but I sure am. lol!
I think trauma bonding sent him back. I've done it myself. Took me decades to get free.
Totally disagree that the police didnt do the right thing. From what you see in the show, Donny didnt do anything to help his case by providing proper evidence of what was going on. Might have been different in real life but he could have done more to help to police.
I agree, I rewatched and they were slow but he also was a bit shit at relating what was going on to them
i think what this show does perfectly is really capture Donny's (aka Richard's) perspective. we are really put into his headspace. for the person being abused, they often have conflicting thoughts and behaviours. they do not necessarily view their abusers as abusers, but see good attributes in them too.
with the way the show is thus conducted through Donny's lens, we're forced to empathise with Martha as opposed to solely thinking of her as a chilling stalker.
that being said, i wonder what Donny's thoughts are towards the writer who abused him. i get that the show focuses primarily on the relationship between him and Martha, but i wonder if Donny ever had obsessive thoughts about *why* Darrien abused him, or if Donny regrets the way he neglected Keeley and probably let her think *she* was the reason why he didn't want to be intimate with her.
in fact, i wonder if Keeley had doubts about him being abused by Darrien. she certainly seemed aware that they were spending a lot of time together and that it was weird as hell how much older Darrien was.
i also question if the age of Donny's abusers, as both Darrien and Martha were significantly older than him, played a role in how gripped he was to them and if - lets say they were younger - they would have the same impact on him.
Darrien also seemed to be the one to introduce Donny to drugs beyond weed, and i thought it was interesting how Donny was still abusing drugs (i.e. cocaine when he went to the bar with Teri) even outside of Darrien's presence. it makes me curious as to whether or not Donny suffered from drug addiction and what the extent of it was if so.
ultimately, i think from what i've outlined above, i'm just desperate to know more - although completely respect Richard's privacy and he's already been so brave in sharing everything he felt comfortable with and which was necessary to share. even though the show was crazy good and covered A LOT, 7 short episodes can never fully cover someone's 20s and everything they go through.
if one day he were to ever publish a novel about the abuse, I would find it fascinating to read. This is probably just wishful thinking on my end, but it kinda seemed like to me he eluded to a potential novel in the show when he erases the witness statement word document, and then starts writing a couple of sentences about how his first encounter with Martha made him feel.
this is probably the most stimulating and thought-provoking show i've ever watched. i don't think it's possible to evaluate it solely as a standalone piece of art when most of it happened to Donny in reality. the reason it is so hard hitting, in my opinion, is because it is largely NOT a work of fiction.
edit: FINAL THINGS. what i’m probably most curious about is… did the real Martha actually misspell her words like that? if so, that is absolutely terrifying and so creepy.
also, it was incredibly fucked up how the police didn’t take Donny (or other victims in general) seriously due to the lack of physical violence threat. that being said, i think one thing that really stands out and speaks volumes as to how Donny did view Martha as a human being is how he didn’t seem afraid to be alone with her.
he was okay with dropping her back home that freezing night at the bus stop. he was okay with going over to her place a few times, etc. Martha seems like a very unpredictable character and it wouldn’t surprise me if she had tried to stab Donny or something.
in fact, in one of the scenes of the show (unfortunately the one where she meets him by that canal, won’t stop following him, and then gropes him), i initially thought she might have pushed him into the water.
i think Donny and Martha definitely shared an unexplainable yet transcendent bond which only the two of them will fully understand.
Martha would have still dove into her stalker behaviors even if he reciprocated. She was in states of obsession and delusion. It wasn’t about dating Donny, she was consumed by the thought of him.
your criticisms are quite valid but i'd give them a pass since this is still a netflix series, it's going to need some of those hollywood moments, so i don't think they detract from the show as a whole, i thought it was still one of the best things i've watched in a few years
the scene where he goes back to the producer to me could be that he was trying to face his past to then realise he still wasn't strong enough even after all that happened, to mark how this was going to be something that would stay with him for a long time
ps love your accent! :)
I was shocked he went back but have been thinking about it. He is going as a writer on a team- probably in an office. He can call the shots and he knows his rapist hired him knowing he may be outed - I wish I knew more about it- I’d want to close that door but maybe facing it head on as a person with more power may be healing- it could also sink him to a depression. Truth is- he isn’t there now and he wrote this amazing drama and will have made his millions - all the while people who knew about this guy then will now know ALL of it!
It was the lure of celebrity is why he jumped at the chance of working on a hit show he virtually said it.
Weird I’ve met guys like this they play victim after they’ve slept/used you…I wish parents would really talk to their sons about this nonsense. Sleep with girls or use them that don’t like you lol idk. But yeah seems in a way he is in love with her strange
I think he wanted to face his abuser. Speaking from experience, you can become vitriolic and the experience all-consuming. Being brave led him to more bravery. But he quailed under facing the boss. And we hope he doesn't return to him. It takes on average 7 times to escape an abuser.
I think Donny, as many men in his position frequently do, would have absolutely gone for Martha if she had been attractive to him.
But that is NOT a good thing, and it always ends in pain. The situation frequently escalates just as much, if not more, when the object of obsession reciprocates. There is no universe where Donny would have just shagged Martha and it would have had a happy ending (wtaf).
interesting vid, but i disagree with your view on the monologue. it hits hard BECAUSE we already know the things donny had only started to come to terms with, and the tension comes from waiting for past donny to catch up. him finally waking up and articulating his experience more concretely isn't supposed to be a moment of revelation, but of catharsis
i get your issues with the subtlety, and i also personally enjoyed episode 1-4 more. however, i don't believe subtlety is always the best way to tell a story, even though i do prefer it most of the time. when a story is supposed to be this self-confrontational, the choice of spelling it out isn't necessarily to hand-hold the audience. it reflects his journey of facing his trauma and shortcomings head-on without hiding behind ambiguity. that being said, there is still ambiguity in the show, particularly in the last scene. i love how different people's interpretations of it are
I appreciate your effort but I think the only good quality analysis of this show has to be through the lens of understanding Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic personality disorder, intimate partner violence, trauma bonding etc. when she learns he has been sexually assaulted and still doesn’t lay off, she has transformed into the true narcissist that she really is. He tears after that point turned my stomach and my sympathy went. I saw her for the true narcissist she is. When Donny goes to his abusers house, it’s because he is still seeking the abuse feedback cycle, and him leaving shows growth. He had an appropriate reaction.
I think he goes to his abuser as a way to connect and he expected some humanity like he found in Martha, and when it became clear Darrien was still just as bad. My hot take
I watched it due to the first video. It had difficult moments, and would be difficult for most people that have experienced trauma. I recommended that others did not watch this series.
Great review
agreed the stand up sequence fell a little flat for me too - and then him going viral after felt very tv writing ish to me (so wanted it to be a bojack "free churro" moment). Him going back to his abuser...makes sense for his character (as someone w the same addiction-prone vices and personality). When something like that happened to me, i wanted to return back to my abuser because i felt like only both of us knew what really went down, thank god i had friends to care for me then. Perhaps it could be him seeking that validation or affirmation again in the most fucked up way. Such an interesting point on martha and attractiveness tho, i think his bisexuality and donny also mentions he's not sure if he's fully gay could be a bar to him wanting her in that way, and he's not shown being with women post-assault (up until he met teri and he had issues performing).
12:19 I wasn’t bothered by the monologue bc it was the first scene where he did a performance that was honest. Even “jokey” comedians insert themselves into their sets. Donny never did until that moment.
I was hoping for the happy ending with Teri. I guess there is still time!
I think he would have liked her a lot more if she was thin and stereotypically attractive.
with her background she would never be that way
It Is really hard for me to understand why Donny allowed the rapist to do it all over again. Also, I don't know Donny's previous sex life. I can't see why Martha did not receive psychatric treatment while and after she was in prison. I have always heard that Britain has a good health system. British people could express their opinions about this. I do hope the real Donny and Martha go over their traumas. I wish them all the happiness they deserve.❤
It made me mad, but I know why. He got something out of it, or at least he thought he did. It’s the sunk cost fallacy . He figured it already happened once, what’s one more time in exchange for fame. He figured eventually he’d get the job he wanted from this guy. Some battered women stay because they think they already sunk so much in the relationship that ‘why leave now, maybe this is the last time this happened and now I’ll get what I want. A nice relationship’
Not loving the monologue is definitely an unpopular opinion, and i do disagree with it. It had to be something public and spontaneous.
Why do you think that it had to be that way?
I give it a 9
I liked Donny and Teri as a couple - but, there were points where I was a bit concerned that she is a therapist. Some of her reactions and/or comments were not appropriate.
You mean to how she acted towards Donny and Martha? I get where you’re coming from, but Teri should be allowed to exist in outside of her role as a therapist. She should have maybe set up some boundaries in the relationship.
Due to her role, I’m sure Donny found it appealing to talk to her about martha as he was close to Teri, but can you imagine how draining than must be? Having somebody who supposed to be your boyfriend just become another client.
It would be easy to become overwhelmed in that sort of situation, not to mention the physical assault.
I think is important to recognise that even though Teri is a therapist, she is also a person with flaws like the rest of us. ❤️
@@madeleine7308 yeah I get what your saying. Shes totally allowed to be her own person and not defined by her job. But there were points where I just felt she was overly harsh. I don’t mean she should become his worker, but as a person who works in mental health myself there’s always a part of you that is switched on. And things like Donny not being able to get it up screams trauma.
One thing that I feel from this show is a lack of a political axe to grind while being in a very touchy space. I was wondering if anyone felt differently?
In what way?
@@tehhotline4225 Honestly I am struggling to explain what I mean and hoping others can be more helpful at putting things into words... I think I mean that this feels like a very personal story and not a commentary on society or a call for change. But the topics of queerness and how the police deal with mental health issues and the power structure of the media industry could warrant a more.. activist tone. I like however having the themes sink into me on an intimate and emotional level.
I don't think the standup breakdown wasn't to give the audience information. It was an act of public humiliation, self flagellation. Public shame. Trauma makes us put ourselves in a position to show the shame and feel the depth of pain the shame.
I’ve neva taken it up the chufter but i wud for you
Sent from my iPhoen
Did anyone find the real life Martha?
I rarely say this but I don’t know how to feel about this being filmed and aired. I know I can’t dictate how people process their trauma or if they share it or not but this whole thing feels gross to me. I feel like I’ve learned something I shouldn’t and I feel disturbed and unsettled about it.
That man needs some serious help, reliving all of this extreme trauma publicly is insane and so is starring in it. Everyone just says how amazing he is and how great the show is and I just think the whole thing was vile. Teri was the only good person in it. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills like am I the only one disturbed by this whole thing?
Also I feel like the focus was on the wrong person, yes Martha is an awful piece of crap but he was assaulted and nothing happened to him like wtf?
i like that he’s talking about it makes it seem less tabo, makes me feel like i could make something good out of the abuse i went through, they did it in a way that didn’t romanticize and glorify the stalking and drug use and sa. i like that this is creating a dialogue about sa for men and how the police handle stalking/abuse. i think adding the abuse into the show was to explain why he let the stalking go so far and why he like her validation. i do think this man needs serious help but i’m curious what part you think would do damage and why it made you feel gross? i’m wondering if maybe because i went through similar experiences it made me have a weird view on the show?
hmm i'm of 2 minds on this. i remember making a comment about baby reindeer being IMDY for white men (complimentary) and my friend made a note that the difference between michaela and richard is that michaela went to therapy.
but either way, both actors made the decision to relive their traumas on screen for an audience. for certain people that is how they choose to process their pain and to a certain degree we have to respect that. hopefully he did get help somewhere down the line; but it does shine a light on how men are expected to process sexual trauma vs women. unfortunately a lot of men do go about life with these deep pockets of trauma like nothing happened and carry their shame like awful secrets in them; but i can't say that was what was shown in the show.
because post-assault you see donny narrate his relationship with having lots of meaningless, dangerous, borderline assault based sexual encounters, increasing in risk taking behaviours that could get him killed, his addiction to extremely violent pornography, and also his inability to consummate normally with people when there's feelings involved which contributed to the disconnect between him and teri when they were trying to get intimate.
so i do agree, it is a disturbing journey through a man reliving his trauma but he did show what the consequences of that awful ordeal and what it did to him mentally, and we can only hope he's getting much better help now. it speaks a lot to the importance of community and having a safe space such as his ex gf inviting him to move back in with them and his family accepting his sexuality helped his life move forwards in a positive direction somewhat.
@@aela5521 I can say that it’s a very real depiction of how humans handle things. People don’t always process or respond to traumatic events the way people think they should, so I can appreciate him showing that. I can also appreciate how he didn’t try to make himself look good, most people think he was extremely unlikeable before the assault part is shown. I hate this made me stick up for the police here because he hid a ton of information from them and sabotaged his own case. I can’t even say whether or not they would’ve handled it properly given the chance because he didn’t let them.
As far as this doing damage I don’t think it will but I can see various groups of people taking issue with different parts of this though.
The real part that is disturbing me his him reenacting his own assault, it’s too far for me. I won’t tell him what he should be doing, I can only say how it made me feel and that’s awful. Writing a book or a script is one thing, but directing, filming and reenacting his assault is something I can’t handle. That’s nothing to do with him but my own issue.
So many terrible things happened in this and it just hits your like a freight train over and over. Martha got locked up and the assaulter is free. It may be realistic but it’s a very heavy piece of material that I can’t describe as great or must see. Just a bunch of awful events back to back on film
@@amk4MK agreed I won’t tell him how he should process what happened to him, I can only say it left me heavily disturbed. Placing the assault towards the end gives it a different framework then it would have if they would’ve led with it.
I’m so conflicted with all this but I have to hand it to him, I haven’t felt this way about a show/film in a long while. I certainly do hope he’s getting or received some help for all this.
I felt like it was holding a mirror up at me since I felt how on earth could he possibly put this out there so bare, so vulnerable when it’s such monumental trauma and I don’t know whether that was my internalised shame of victimhood because of how we’re conditioned to view it in society or what but I’m glad that he did and it’s something I’m defo gonna look at in myself
I think Stalking is complicated because people have freedom and we don't want to bring the police in for every dispute. Frankly the honest truth is that police don't have the staff. They more and more are being forced to handle minor social issues and they don't have the people to do it. This entire show imho shows why stalking shouldn't be something police make more important because Donnie completely encouraged her and clearly caused the situation.
Caused the situation? Are you serious? Should not taken seriously by the police? Are you ok?
I saw another video about this series and they were overly sympathetic to Martha in that video. They were talking about her like she was some abused heroine with borderline personality disorder that needs love and compassion etc.
Oh s.... , America created Dont be a Karen.....Brits.....MARTHA
Hated this show
He was a fool who led her on
I feel like you actually victim blame a lot saying that basically Donny's and Martha's behavior are similarly bad
No one says this but clearly Donnie liked Martha. He did lead her on. Perhaps that is her issue. There is a scene where he can only have relations with Teri by thinking of her. Cause Martha is fat and that is worse than any taboo.
Teri hit the nail on the head, Donny doesn't like Martha, he likes what Martha gives him. He likes the adoration. The reason he was picturing Martha is not because he had romantic feelings for her, but because he couldn't have actual safe intimate sex due to his abuse. He needed a level of derangement to get aroused where manifested itself in picturing sex with his stalker, one of the most self destructive fantasies he could come up with.
But I did wonder when I watched the show, what is he found her sexually attractive when he met her? If the other men at the bar told him she was hot, that he should be flattered, should just have sex with her. What kind of abusive relationship that could have been.
He liked that she was the only one to pay attention to him.... she saw something that no one else saw in him and he liked her company.... for a time and couldn't quite slam the door because of that. But I don't think he was ever into her as a romantic/sexual partner.
Uau the ignorance of this comment is too big to even bother.
I couldnt agree more with this! You could not have said it any better. Ngl It does bother me i keep seeing comments where some assume and doubt its real at all or they assume hes just trying to paint himself out to be victim and is probably lying. People really need to understand the psychological effects that extreme abuse it can have before having assumptions on it being truthful or not but i do understand their confusion. Some victims can end up having stockholm syndrome for their abuser after experiencing a fk tonne of trauma (google it its actually very interesting) which explains why Ryan resulted into trauma bonding with martha in some weird fucked up way. Also will explain why he kept going back to the guy that SA him.. That and also a lack of boundaries, self respect and self worth. He looked to martha and darrien for validation and acknowledgement bc they both made him feel seen and heard. you can tell he is being raw and honest from the way that he dealt with the trauma. he did a very accurate representation of how shame can completely shatter and destroy your soul. it creates so much shame and self hatred. it eats away at you. he felt he couldnt open up to anyone around him which on a personal level, i can understand and resonate to a T. he wouldnt have known anything about the physiological affects of trauma and what it was doing to his brain. he hated himself and it would've completely deteriorated his mental health and the way he perceived himself that he would've actually believed he wasnt worthy or good enough hence why he kept going back to the abuse i.e lack of boundaries. he knew it was wrong on some level but still chose to be mistreated and allowed the abuse to continue (which i will be honest frustrated me at times but it is also something i can relate to within my own experience) what i most love about it is he was actually extremely honest about how he played a part in the abuse and you could tell he didnt try to victimise himself in any way he was good at displaying his naivety in the show and the choices and mistakes he made within the abuse itself.
i 100% believe him. i think people find it hard to believe bc they 1. havent been through a similar experience or 2. their lack of knowledge of the brain and how trauma works or 3. not many people have been as authentic and as raw as ryan has with the abuse as he has.. it's a overall shameful thing to admit to the world so i can see why ppl are conflicted. not many would share their abuse worldwide which is why i personally love this show. its the most authentic show i have ever seen my whole 24 years of living.
Show was a waste of time, garbage!!!!
The thing about Martha is when she's on the upswing of her moods, she's actually cute and charming.