Dating the Ramayana - Part 1 l Dr Raja Ram Mohan Roy |
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- This will be a 2 part series. Dr. Raja Ram Mohan Roy will delve deep into our knowledge systems to put across his research which states that the Ramayana cannot be dated back to 12209 BCE.
About the Speaker:
Dr. Raja Ram Mohan Roy is an IIT - Kanpur graduate and a Ph.D from the Ohio State University, USA. He is a Vedic Scholar, Materials Scientist, Author of books on Vedic Astronomy, Jain Astronomy, and Ancient Indian History.
Sub-Topics:
0:00 Introduction
1:20 Claims and Counter-Claim of dating the Ramayana
2:03 Astronomy Poison Pills
4:10 Chaitra in Sharad Seasons
17:13 Asvina in Vasanta
20:50 Setting of the Sun near Pusya during Hemanta
23:57 Brahmarisi/Abhijit as Pole star in Ramayana
34:29 A Unique observation
40:38 Hailey's comet, Voyager 4.5 and Stellarium
45:48 Comet 2P Encke
51:44 Conclusions
Q&A
53:07 Julian Calendar vs Gregorian calendar dating difference?
56:00 Can the date f Ramayana be dated?
1:00:27 Why different datings of Mahabharata and Ramayana by analysts?
1:05:35 How does a lay person make sense of all these dates?
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Sangam talks please bring Dr Raja Ram Mohan and Nilesh Oak for the debate .
Even though I don't agree with Nilesh dating, spending 1 hour to dispute his conjecture without providing any other alternative dating of your own sounds very desperate.
The video should be titled: Refuting Nilesh Oak's Conjecture by Dr. Raja Mohan.
Very much aligned with this opinion
Agree, the title of the video is misleading.
The occasion of the talk was his challenging Oak from a scientific point of view, not claiming an alternative theory (one needn't have an alternative theory to question a conjecture that is wrong from a scientific standpoint.) Anyone can question a claim on the basis of science and logic. The burden to provide evidence rests with the person making the claim. You cannot transfer it on the person questioning the claim. This is what Oak and his suppoters are doing.
@@smitamukerji3064 I have watched his 2nd video and I agree with Sir's statement. But at the same time, I stand with my point that the title of the video is misleading.
The dating is given the Puranas like Vayu Puranawhich state that Rama appeared in the Treta yuga of 24th Maha=yuga, over 18 million tears ago.
It's a complex matter. Someone trying to find out the roots of it. If you want to deny his concept you must have alternate thoughts, ideas for acceptance.
Mr. Oak has put much effort, thought, and passion into dating our important events. Unlike others who avoid trying and make excuses about it being too complicated. Complicated doesn't equal impossible. So, it should be done instead of just refuting and bringing everything back to zero.
Also, the very first sentence he uttered about no civilization existing at that time, meaning 12,000 BCE just shows the depth of knowledge or lack thereof of the presenter. He has obviously not heard of Göbekli Tepe what other structures of a lesser scale but equally fascinating found all around the world dating back to that period.Sangam talks should not be giving platform to such vitriol.
24:00 You are looking Shloks in Isolation without reading the whole text
56:00 By saying that something is complex and running away from it. While on the other hand only refuting someone who was trying to simplify the complex is like the crabs pulling each other. You are doing it to defend your Guru only.
Who is his Guru?
I agree. Mr. Oak has put much effort, thought, and passion into dating our important events. Unlike others who avoid trying and make excuses about it being too complicated. Complicated doesn't equal impossible. So, it should be done instead of just refuting and bringing everything back to zero.
@@riagarg5874 pseudo-science is very dangerous. It sets wrong Precedence to coming Generation and Indian scientific community. Off course whether he is scientist or a layman who is a Hindu has faith in Rama and Hanuman. But reality is different.
Sanskrit is called mother of languages because of complexity. vastness of vocabulary, grammar, synonyms which brings to the table. It offers a poet /writer a great tool to present his complex imagination in a poetic form. Interpretation of any of the Sanskrit mantras to itz core meaning is highly challenging. Ex - there are many ancient and modern interpretation of words mentioned in Gayathri Mantra. let us try to understand the meaning of these words in Gayathri mantra. Bhuh - represents bhulokah Material world in which we live. Bhuvaha - Antariksha lokah represents. space in which material world exists. svah represents svarga lokah - Heaven (unkown) There are many interpretations given by many scholars. For instance, these words represent the existence of planes in our body from gross to subtle. some other interpretation says - Bhu - something that gives the feeling of consciousness. bhuvah - destroyer of suffering. swah is the giver of happiness. so on so forth... A person who don't have Vedic knowledge cannot interpret Gayathri mantra to itz core value. In this case, Mr Nilesh is in the same situation.
I have heard dating of Ramayana from various experts giving their date.I can conclude 4 points on date of Ramayana
1.As mentioned by MrNilesh Oak the presence of Agsta star which can be visible from Mahindragiri parvat onwards to south pole.This can be possible minimum 13000years back due to tilt in earth axis
2.Ocenography report presented by Nilesh oak suggest that 14000years back singaldeevp (present srilanka) was connected to India by landmass then why Ram Sethu is required?.but Valmiki has mentioned as singaldeevp which means Island as no land mass between India and srilanka where we have to go beyond 14000years
3.In Valmiki Ramayana mention elephants with Four task (as seen by Hanuman).Recent fossil found suggest these elephants had extinct 4to 5million years back.so take dating beyond 5million
4.As per Valmiki description date is mentioned as Tera yuga of 24chaturyaga where as we are in kaliyug of 28th chaturga If we go by Aryabhatta calculation of yuga date goes to 17 million years back.
Either 1 and 2 are completely wrong and 3 & 4 to be believed.
The visibility of Agastya⭐ is possible from 4000+ years itself for few minutes to hours. Just that it will not be a pole ⭐ as claimed.
Ramayana is a great and oldest eithihas for sure.
@@AnandRajappan I'll go with number 1 and 2 is completely wrong.
Regarding #4 where does Valmiki mention it is 24th Mahayuga? I know that other Puranas metion 24th mahayuga but where does Valmiki do so?
@@variantofconcern1735 it is not there in the valmiki Ramayana but reference are there in other Puranas and other Ramayana like Yoga vashistha. Creation and their Cycles are not explained in itthihasas rather you get those details only in Puranas.
@@AnandRajappanFurther *any* star at South Pole cannot be visible from India or SriLanka. Every star in southern direction visible from India or SriLanka will appear to rise and set. So cannot be a South Pole.
This gentleman thinks humans were not living on this earth during ICE AGE !! WOW !
In which Maha yugam Ramayana happened?
How many years in each Maha Yugam?
If you can answer these questions, you will get to know how old Ramayana is?
What should we believe then?
14000 years is what I think is most appropriate sir , Nilesh oak sir has given quiet a lot of astronomical and hydrological evidence .
🙏🚩
Raja Ram Mohan Roy is a leftist stooge .How can you expect good intentions from him
@@beinggoodhuman846 I don't know humara to viswas he uthgya ha ase logo se
@@beinggoodhuman846 Jay Shri Ram thank you for sharing your valuable information brother because these days anything is posted on internet
@@fromandromedaa If somebody comes up with his own theory based on readily verifiable evidence ( not technical one ) atleast we can understand it is done with a good intent .But he doesn't have any theory of his own and his entire session is too prove Oak wrong. Even though if we assume that Oaks date isn't might not be correct still this clearly shows Raja Ram's intention isn't a honest one to find out the correct dating of Ramayana .
It's good we are having vaad vivad that's very important 🙏🕉️😘🎈🎉❤️
Oak says 5561±error not exact 5561. Also dates can be told due to seasonal descriptions but years can't so easily. Therefore it can be 29 sep 5561 or 29 sep 5589 or 29 sep 5534
Regarding civilisation, please care also to observe the references in RigVed to Yamuna breaking off from Saraswati in about 50-45000 BC or Sutudri by around 14-12000 BC. Also, you have swept under the carpet the findings about Poompuhar, the sea level rise corresponding to the Mahabharat period.
Besides, you have said that Mr Oak’s references to climatic anecdotes cannot be taken into consideration. But these observations were anyhow made. Even if they are supposed to be made earlier, due to the precision/ axials/ nods and considering the astronomy and physical geography when the sea levels were low which joined the Sinhaldweep to Bharatkhand, there does not appear to be any doubt about Oak’s dates. Moreover, the context in which such things had been written must also be considered.
Considering the synthesis of all sorts of markers, triangulation points, astronomical and geophysical evidences besides the story itself saying that the events happened, Mr Oak’s dates for not only both these events but also to dating of our civilisation are undoubtedly correct.
Do read , वास्तव रामायण by da scholar Late Dr. P. V. Vartak for exact dating of Ramayana ...
What makes you think Nilesh is not good in Sanskrit and in translation? I was watching one slide he was saying there is no mention of Pushya but even a novice like me whose knowledge of Sanskrit is zero and Hindi just bearable could see pushya written in that page.So please shut up and don’t waste people’s time with lies.
Looks like you did not watch the talk properly. I said that there is no mention of the Sun setting in the Pushya nakshatra in that verse. Prove it otherwise. All of Oak's astronomy poison pills are based on gross misinterpretation of the Ramayana verses or absurdity of using analogies as astronomical observations.
My take is, this presentation is an effort at one upmanship without a proper samvaad, before expressing out on a public forum, first you and Nilesh Oak Sir should have sat down and come to a conclusion as to what to share for the benefit of common people.
By separately expressing on the same subject, it confuses the common people, and gives a wrong message that we are not following our ancient process of learning.
He seems to be a leftist stooge who just don't convincly tell that Ramayana was a history .They are the one who believe Ramayana is Mythology
Oak was engaged directly. Details will be in Part 2.
Oak is a nastika and doesn't follow sastra.
And irony is same channel is uploading both videos. What game are they playing
Can u pls pin the link of article written by nityanand Mishra? Pls
What’s with their obsession with Nilesh Oak? It’s bizarre..they need to give it a rest and present some original research🙄
In Mahabharata Brihatval of Koshal whom Abhimanyu kills, is 30 generation away from Rama. Taking approx 30 years each generation as per MB itself, Ramayana should be 1000 years apart fron MB. Moreover Vyasa is just 3 generations away from Vasistha, Mainda Dwivid of Ramayana is ruling Kishkindhya and Jambuvana is still alive to fight with Krishna. These pointers should be considered.
There was one more Ram Mohan Roy, the employee of East India company who proposed the theory of Sati and managed data for them and received the title of Raja from the Mughals
I would prefer one on one shastrarth with Nilesh oak sir ..that would be better.instead of saying he is wrong and the other saying no he is wrong...and confuse the audience.
Oak can put his points here. He is very active on CZcams. My debate challenge to him with astronomy experts as judges has been open for months.
No evidence of any civilisation ? What about Gobleki Tepi ? They have dated it back to 12000 years. Also ice age had no impact on the Indian sub-continent.
Sir you should double these slides and give in English also
Sir Oakji's lectures i listen se and in those i also got puzzled about shifting of months and season compare to today's calender/seasons. Is there any independent astronomer's study available who could give the proof of such a radical (seasons/months) sitting by 6 months? My personal opinion is even if there is cycle of 26000 years (i think of jupiter, though i do not exactly recollect the name) this radical shifting of months/seasons cannot take place. Same thing is there wrt dating of Mahabharata
Please watch the second part. I have explained this point in detail and gave exact quotes starting from Vedas to present day to show that there is no evidence of shifting of luni-solar months from seasons in Indian texts. I have also explained why.
Dr Raja Ram Mohan Roy has written a brilliant book on Vedic Physics. Dr Roy needs to stick to his expertise on Vedic Physics. Nilesh Nilkanth Oak has proved to me the Ramayan and the Mahabharat too. His proofs are beyond doubt. People who do not understand Nilesh Oak's proofs will argue.
Well, of course you are misinformed about my expertise. Oak has proved nothing and I would not have bothered if he was just wrong about his dating. He dared to insult other Indic scholars, whom I respect so much. But far worse, he is perverting our scriptures. He has changed birth of Lord Rama to Sharad when Ramayana is crystal clear that it was Vasanta. He has changed birth of Lord Krishna to Grishma when Vishnu Purana is crystal clear that it was Varsha. He has used unproven hypothesis, bogus arguments and manufactured numbers to do that, and that is unpardonable. That is what this refutation is about. Wait for Part 2 for detailed discussion on this.
Ramayana mentions swords and give me evidence of sword in India some 14000 years ago
Can you?
Or else you can keep quiet
Oak is cheating fools like you who have no back ground in sastra. His proofs are only accepted by gullible fools like you. Ramayana is from 24th mahayuga over 18 million years ago.
@@theanonymous7171 Listen in ASI is doing nothing to find anything in our country well In Valmiki Ramayan mentions about 4 tusk elephant even you watch praveen mohan he also finds a temple which have 4 tusk elephants which are extinct around 1million year ago
@@rajarammohanroy1384 You're correct sir
Nice one 🙏🙏🙏🙏🕉️🕉️🕉️🕉️🕉️😍😍😍😍
I respect this man. He's a true researcher. To get results you've to grind and be patient. It'd have been harmful for the Indic cause if he'd put some number in there through unscientific means like Oak has done. Great work sir!
Thank you very much.
No bangali can be trusted.. they are working under Marxist ideology
@@media-rn6zc Why are you repeating your comments? Every state is full of good people and has some bad people.
@@rajarammohanroy1384 why are you so much bothered in the CZcams chats?
The very first notion that its not possible that Ram Ravan Yudhh occurred 12209 BCE, itself shows the biasness.
That assessment was made after a thorough review of Oak's book and publishing my 10 part comprehensive refutation on my blog site. Publication of each part was announced on Twitter and Oak was tagged. He needs to counter my arguments, which he never did.
Then you should provide archeological evidence to prove that
Or else there is no use
Kudos to Raja Ram ji
@@theanonymous7171 Why does he have to provide archeological evidence? india unlike other places has a hot and wet climate not suitable for preserving relics like dry countries (Egypt, Mesopotamia) and they burn their dead. And only a tiny fraction of relics get presevered. You should learn something about the subject before making demands.
@@variantofconcern1735 clearly you have 0 knowledge regarding archeology
@@theanonymous7171 👎 I have significantly more than you.
🙏🚩
When is Part 2 releasing?
It has released now.
@@rajarammohanroy1384 Thank you Prof. Roy.
@@MrLee-gj2jz Dr. Roy
He fully exposed himself from 55:00 to 1:00:00
56:29 "I'm here only to refute the date" wow! You cannot say whether such events happened in history or not, but you can still refute the dates given by someone who has actually done a lot of hard work and research and present it in the most elaborate way possible, unlike you. 🤝👏👏👏
For how many years after one astronomical cycle will complete to reach same time and position of stars at same place. After Ramayana to till date how many astronomical cycles are completed. Kaliyuga started before 5094 years. Caliculate first for kaliyuga period and then go to other yugas. 432000 for kaliyuga, 432000 ×2 = Dwapara, 432000×3 =Trethayuga, 432000× 4= krithayuga.
Is this calculation made on earth or any other place in the space. Sri Rama himself ruled the for 10000 years.
Very authentic research 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you very much.
👍
If you don't have knowledge of Sanskrit, your arguments will not hold water. You are making lot of assumptions. Why haven't you contacted Nilesh and sought clarifications instead of taking a grandstand and criticizing him
Oak has been asked repeatedly to provide the exact details of 575+ corroborations he claims from Ramayana. He has refused to provide the evidence, which is a categorized list of Ramayana verses for these corroborations. It has been discussed in Part 2.
You did cherry picking. Saraswati studies puts it before 11000 BC atleast
Just like who he is named after , just propagandanda ..
???????????
That's all I am not watching it any more.
Sangam Talks please do change the video title. Mention debate in the title.
Raja Ram Mohan Roy, this name itself rings alarm bells. Facts being called as faith!?
Raja Ram is good but the later two is adding colours to your eyes I guess. It is not a question of person (it is a reference point otherwise people find difficult to search and find). The actual questions are on the fundamentals and principles and underlying facts.
All research is welcome, may be in coming years will conclude to dates of Mahabharat and Ramayan. Common person will not be able conclude by such talks, experts should come together and give their conclusion without ego
awesome information.
Thanks for the detailed presentation. I have always been sceptical of the validity of astronomical s/w for such ancient dates.
Dont be Real Raja Ram mohan roy we know what he did to us you are just damaging oak image im asking you simple question forget about everything tell us what is the date of ramayan? If you claim to be scientific you only read text tell me about Archaeological Survey, geological, dont tarnish oak image just bcoz your mentor had a debate with him so you are try to do so we will accept everything but just prove it just put your data and let the world decide its right approach
Ramayana mentions that the events of rama happened when the treta yuga was young. Which means approximately 1 millions years ago. No one wants to talk about that tho.
There are two theories of yug system. One which is separated by 1000s of years and another millions of years.
yuga cycle is of 24000yrs which is based on the precision cycle of earth....so 1 million years is not possible...
@@pavanshetty9806 some time its mentioned 1000 years but this is 1000 divine years which means the time of the devas. For the devas, 365 earth days makes one day for the devas. So when you calculate the numbers it comes to these huge time spans which is why Rama rules so long ago
@@cyansoldier2555 @cyan soldier not sure where your getting your info from but its definitely not the vedas. If you want to talk about yugas you have to have evidence from the vedas otherwise its just some new age mumbo jumbo. In the vedas the 4 yugas are spoken of and detailed and this is only the beginning there are much greater epochs called manvantaras.
@@ishenamara2893 no, not because of divine year. It is based on Suns cycle.. I think @cyan soldier comes close to answer.
21:58 The nights is lead by pushya (pushya neeta) means on pornima night moon and pushya Nakshatra will be aligned indicating indirectly the verse is indeed talking about lunar month of pushya. The mention of nights getting long and cold indeed tells us that the writer is talking about pushya month aligning with Hemanta ritu. This along with earlier mention of Chaitra in Vasanta tells us that the text was composed at the beginning of first millennium when Chaitra was in Vasanta and Pushya in Hemanta. These days lunar month Chaitra occurs in Grishma and lunar month Pushya occurs mostly in Shishir ritu (near winter solstice)
This is further strengthened by fact that Valmiki Ramayana EXTANT text (not the historical Rama) uses Rashichakra and Weekdays - which came into India after 100 BCE. The text was composed in early first millennium when मेषादि राशी system came into vogue. It also explains why the text mentions Buddha, Yavana, Mleccha, etc.
Rama Katha has been told many times. There is one in Mahabharata also - which is an older text and does not use राशी वार system but only Nakshatra system. Tulasidas composed a new version and recently another version was found in Bengal that does not agree with what we call Valmiki Ramayan.
With these “modern” texts we cannot tell date of historical Rama because the astronomical references are from the time of composition not from the time of actual Rama.
9 lac years
More like 18 million, because it happened in 24th mahayuga, we are in 28th.
U r just a kalnemi
Don't propagate fake information.
Which information is fake in your opinion?
@@rajarammohanroy1384 Oak's is fake, yours is correct, but you need more polished presentation. Fools are impressed by Oak's presentation and can't see how he is cheating.
@@variantofconcern1735 As a scientist, my job is to stick to facts and figures and expose intellectual dishonesty. That can only be done by detailed presentation of raw data and analysis. have presented them in a well organized manner.
@@rajarammohanroy1384 But you also need a more polished one like your opponent, to appeal to the (foolish) masses who don't have the attention span to go through your analysis. They get swayed by the high production value presentation of Oak not realizing it is wrong.
From the comments it is clear that many Hindus need to come out of circular logic that suits their own beliefs I think it is because of inferiority complex
Hinduism and Hindu scriptures are great by itself
We don't need some huge claims to be confident
We are great always
You are right,why mr oak did this
For fame and money.
what is the need of making bridge when Lanka was connected by land route 12000 BC ago. Kuch bhi bolo. fir ise prove karne ke liye bataaoge ki ye wali lanka nahi koi aur lanka thi. I believe on work done by Ved Veer Arya that is most logical and fits all the requirements.
He needs to mention precession of the equinoxes right at the outset. Else, he makes no sense whatsoever.
I thought Sangam is good platform for discussion s and research work but look s like it has became some launch pad for vilification of some known scholars. It's really tragic that battle of Ramayan truth is not over.
It is better to be open about the date than to believe in a date that has nothing to do with Ramayana. It is not about vilification of anyone. It is about saving our scriptures from perversion. Dating has to conform to texts. Texts cannot be perverted to suit the dating.
@Aroona Kalita, exactly is my take on this video presentation
@@PSVVinodKumar👎 Oak is a cheater. I applaud Royji's efforts.
Unfortunately, it only shows pure hatred against Mr. Oak, nothing else
To Sangam Talks, please avoid such mistakes. You are being watched by many learned men too. I am sure now someone else will come up with his own logic, reason, justifications to present an entirely new dating. And thus doing a gross injustice to the audience.
Do you think Sangam Talks did not do due deliberation before inviting me? People need to hear both sides.
So you don't need truth to come up you just need to believe whatever you believed all these years
@@theanonymous7171 Dear, it's not about truth, it's about the way and process one arrives at truth and shares it with the audience, and my comment here was specific to the subject and the way it was presented. If at all Mr. Raja Ram Mohan jee wished to put his point across, he should have done so by either avoiding mentioning Mr. Niles Oak or if it was needed then both of them should have shared the dias to speak on their approach and derivatives.
@@PSVVinodKumar 👍
@Vinod Kumar 👎 You must be Oak's chamcha and are here to suppress opposing views.
brightness of a comet ????........... Roy .....its a comet .......what does brightness have to do with an observation ...... you are lost sir
"The comet was at its brightest when in the region of nakshatra Moola." The Historic Rama, N.N. Oak, page 70. Do you even know how Oak got the 12209 BCE date?
@@rajarammohanroy1384 i dont know Sanskrit but the translation is key .... his explanation of the season start is covered well as is the links to geology and direction of river Sarasvati ....and i firmly believe there is no myth here .Voyager software does land you in the right time frame for both pole stars Oak's simulations are well covered in his CZcams talks produced after his book was published ..... the AIT that you are trying hard to establish in both your talks..... fail miserably
Mr Raja Ram Moham Roy - Ur counter arguments are very shallow as Hindi translation by Gita press for common folks is not expected to be a literal translation BUT a easy to read n understand one for people..... U have just taken the refuge of these hindi translations.... which is SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENUF COUNTER..
Specify what is wrong in the translations by Gita Press. I have used six different translations in my blog and all six translations are consistent with each other. Mr. Oak has misinterpreted the verses to suit his dating of Ramayana and has lied about having 575+ corroborations. All he has to do is to produce a list of 575+ Ramayana verses that he claims as corroborating his dating. Why can't he do that and prove his intellectual honesty?
the Ramayana happened 5 lakh 13 thousand years ago.
Shakal se hi Leftist lag raha hai.
Don't judge the book by it's cover
@@shakthivelsaravanan9263 Is pushtak ka main gehanata se adhyan kar chuka kar chuka hoon. isliye apna gyan apne paas rakhen.
He indeed is a leftist stooge .I have seen his other video and he belongs to set of people who believe Ramayana is a Mythology
@@ajwain9033 have you come to any conclusions ..pls let us know what do u think of it ..
🙏🚩
You did cherry picking. Saraswati studies puts it before 11000 BC atleast