10 CONTROVERSIAL Hall Of Fame Selections - ANTI-SNUBS or DESERVING??? (PART 1)
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- THE WORST MLB HALL OF FAMERS list can be found on a variety of websites and today, I've selected 10 names I see a lot of those lists and have made my own decision whether each Hall of Famer is DESERVING of his plaque OR... is he an ANTI-SNUB?! - An anti-snub is not a player who snubbed of their HOF selection, rather one who MADE IT IN the Hall of Fame but MAY NOT BE DESERVING...
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You forgot that the HOF is a popularity contest with journalists
Too many joe Jackson haters.
Amen
The problem is players have their favorites too it's all the popularity contest
No it's not it's the best HOF unlike the NBA or NFL who let average players in.
It's still the best tho.
That's crazy people questioning Lou Brock.
If he was a good fielder no one would be questioning him, he was DH level bad
Defense was often regarded very highly in the old days. Tiny gloves and uneven fields, so Keith Hernandez types had stronger reputations long ago. For example, when Babe Ruth named his all-time all-star team, at first base he picked defensive wizard Hal Chase over his own former teammate Lou Gehrig. Likewise, guys like Ray Schalk were kept in the lineup because it was assumed their defensive prowess made up for their average batting. I suspect in a hundred years when two-way players are common, that people will look back on our current era with similar bemusement.
agreed 100%
Ray Schalk wasn't just extremely good at defense, he revolutionized the position, literally inventing most of the basic back-up plays that future catchers were expected emulate as a matter of course. Add the facts that he was known to handle pitchers well and that base-stealing was much more important in those days, so his throwing arm played a bigger role, and I believe he more than deserved his HOF status. I suspect that WAR doesn't reflect Dead Ball value as well as it does modern value.
@@lowtechredneck6704 thank you. I always shake my head when I see Schalk on lists like this. Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Walter Johnson all picked him as their all-time catcher. His offense wasn't special, but comparing him to a left fielder like Sherry McGee is misleading and unfair. He is an asset to the Hall of Fame, not a liability.
@@lowtechredneck6704
I suspect WAR is a load of crap. In fact I know it.
Look at the A's rookie Esteury Ruiz. 132 games (missed several w/ injuries) led the A's in hits and batting average (a modest .254) led the majors in SB's w/ 67 (caught just 13 times)
Also drove in 47 (batting mostly lead-off or way down in the lineup) and smacked 5 HR's and 24 doubles (so not strictly a banjo hitter) He did make 8 errors in the OF but plenty of vets in the past have made that many and more. He'll improve there.
The A's were 8-22 when he didn't play and 42-90 when he did. So perhaps he wasn't a huge catalyst...but w/o his speed I doubt the A's win 50 games. Not w/ Rooker's inconsistent .246 the best hitter behind or above him. And for all Ruiz did he's rated by WAR as a minus-0.1 which is an absolute crock.
@@GizmoBeach not making errors in the outfield doesnt make you a good defender, he also had a tiny .309 obp which brings down his hitting quite a lot. The only value he provided over a replacement level player was stealing a lot of bags. I get what you feel, your team sucks ass rn and youre grasping at straws for hope, i was the same with my jays from 17-20 but dont let homer bias blind ya
The fact Brock is even talked about not being in baffles me! Sutter I get, i think it was more of him being a pioneer to closing and a splitter, and being an early 300 save guy.
Rollie Fingers
In my time during the 70's a reliever often had to go 2 or more innings to get a save...not just three batters. What they did then (when the role still wasn't firm) was something. Also they didn't face guys who strike out 100 times a month.
@@thirdlegstallianofingers is in
I was young, but I recall sports writers being a lot more enamored with relievers in the 1970's and 1980's than they are today. Steve Bedrosian's Cy Young comes to mind.
For my money the Stopper is more important than the closer. The guy who comes in with runners on first and third with no outs in a tie game when the starter falters a bit is way more important to the win than the guy who gets the bottom of their order out in the bottom of the nineth.
@@gregorykrajeski6255 Bedrock's Cy Young win was more of a product of a bad competition though. If they were more enamored then more relievers would have gotten in, especially Sparky Lyle and Quiz.
Fun fact: The character Jimmy Dugan from "A League of Their Own" was partly inspired by Hack Wilson. In fact, Dugan is said to be a composite of Hack Wison and Jimmie Foxx two legendary sluggers who both had drinking problems that led to the end of their careers.
No dude rogers Hornsby
Funny thing about League was Dugan supposedly hit something like 57 HR's one year (one more than the actual NL record of Hack Wilson's) and then several years later...PED's allowed even that fake record to be broken.
In fact the record set by Darryl Palmer (62 HR's in The Slugger's Wife) was broken as well. Stupid PED's.
@@cokesquirrel no dude. Duggan even mentioned that Hornsby was his manager and cursed him out. Hornsby never drank
@@CarlKarnak Called him a "talking pile of pig****, and that was after his parents drove all the way from Michigan to see him play. And did he cry?????
That's not strictly true,,, he hurt his knee in the hotel fire. 😂😂
I read ray shalk invented backing up first base on throws. Hes there becuase of his defense he was a pioneer as a catcher..
I don't know what Schalk's statistics are, but an underrated statistic for catchers is team ERA (comparing before, during, and after their careers). Schalk is credited for White Sox league leading team ERA in their last WS win in 1917 until 2005. For instance Carlton Fisk is given as a prime example of such a catcher who lowered a teams ERA after joining (and having his previous team's ERA increase) when he went from Boston to Chicago. So, just comparing offensive stats doesn't tell a whole story for a catcher to the extent that WAR can even be misleading for a catcher (or poorly calculated).
i dont like cERA, theres definitely other things you can use to prove schalk was an amazing defensive catcher though
THANK YOU FOR CELEBRATING THE GREAT JACK MORRIS! he's a MN native and his only season here was 1991. He did radio commentary for years after retirement.
Bill Jam4s makes the case for why some of the old timers should not be in the HOF by noting that Frankie Frisch ran the Veterans Committee and had considerable influence elsewhere for many years, and pushed to get a lot of his old buddies into the HOF.
I know, players like Freddie Lindstrom, Candy Cummings, Rabbit Maranville, Roger Bresnahan, Elmer Flick, Travis Jackson, Dave Bancroft, George Kelly and more.
When it comes to closers, everyone forgets they used to pitch 2 or more innings.
That's right. Relief pitching has transitioned tremendously over the last 3 decades. Back in the day the bullpen on most clubs was just a collection of guys who could get it over the plate for a couple innings. Now? We have a long relief guy, a set-up guy, a 8 or 9th inning guy, and a closer. In some situations today a closer might be called in to face just the final 2 hitters.
They used to be called "Firemen" and there was a "Fireman of the Year" award. They came in whenever the strarter got in trouble and the Firemen would finish the game (hopefully). Roy Face, Dick Radatz, Frank Linzy, Stu Miller, Goose Gossage, Sparky Lyle, Lindy McDaniel were Firemen; for example.
Yep, that's why Lee Smith has just as many innings pitched as Trevor Hofman and Mariano Rivera. Lee Smith has a greater WAR than Hoffman.
@@deepcosmiclove That's right! Comically, in the 70's when the Angels relief corp was horrendous they nicknamed them the "Arson squad"
Hack Wilson's short peak and single-season record-setting performance reminds me a little of Roger Maris.
190 RBIs is insane.
Roger was a great all-around player; great baserunner and fielder; never missed the cutoff man.
Never missed a cutoff man? I never heard that as a HOF argument.
@@deepcosmiclove Too bad injuries shortened his prime.
Can't believe Lou Brock is even in the conversation.
Lou Brock was a much better player in the post season than Rickey Henderson .
He isn't. That's just a ridiculous take
I think because he was a lead off hitter that struck out so much and didn’t walk enough, so he had a pedestrian OBP, plus his defense was atrocious, people tend to rate him higher on lists of greats than he should be. That doesn’t mean he isn’t HOF worthy in my eyes, however.
@@courtneyvaldez7903 Brock excelled in the post season , when it mattered the most .
Rickey Henderson only had one good post season .
@@user-ki1un4jg2d Never said he didn't. Brock was a fantastic postseason performer. For a career, I'd take Henderson 100/100 times, though. Brock still a deserving HOFer either way.
Lou Brock totally deserves the HOF. Rickey came up the year of Lou Brock’s last year. No one thought Brock’s record would be beat
im shocked to learn brock wasnt in
Uh, Brock is in…
Lou Brock one of 3 guys to ever homer into the Polo Grounds centerfield bleachers; 500 feet.
And in that last year: 1979 Brock made the All Star Team, having 123 H 21 SB .304 BA at the age of 40 playing in 120 games.
I agree with you about Hack Wilson. His peak was so miraculous that it would be hard to leave him out.
People who said Lou Brock is undeserving of the HOF need to be studied by science. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to come to that opinion?!
I am more perplexed when they are voted in before getting to Veterans Committee. With that said, I would like to see Thurman Munson get in.
Tommy John? He has almost 300 wins, two time Cy Young runner up, won 20 games three times, three time league shutout leader and has a surgery named after him. Haha!
Tommy John should be in!
I’m moving soon close to the Baseball Hall of Fame. My wife and I went to visit it. What surprised me was that they had a lot of Fernando Valenzuela items and stats, but he’s not an inductee. They sure as hell love him, but he isn’t in it. He was good as a Dodger, but after that, not so much. For his time as a Dodger, I would’ve put him in, but that’s just me.
I was a kid in LA at the time. During his rookie season, I would see Fernandomania! signs and stickers everywhere.
I think you had to follow all of Lou Brock's career to understand just how deserving he was to be in the HOF. It was all about his base stealing and how he disrupted the other team and as you mention was a great world series performer in three series. Brock also hit well and makes my all-time Cards line-up as the leadoff man. He was the St. Louis version of Rickey Henderson. You got it right. I found most interesting your comments on Bill Mazeroski. I think Defense gets lost in the numbers. At the same time though seeing the numbers of Mazeroski and thinking of Ron Santo I wonder why Ken Boyer is not in the HOF who makes my all-time Cards lineup as the third baseman since he also hit and played great defense. Maybe he just aged too quicky. My line-up is Brock - LF Hornsby -2b Musial - RF Puhols -1b Edmonds - CF Boyer - 3B Molina -c Ozzie Smith - SS Bob Gibson -P This leaves players like Ted Simmons, Frankie Frisch, Red Schoendienst, Enos Slaughter Johnny Mize and Joe Medwick on the bench. I did find your analysis interesting.
If Brock was a good fielder there would be zero debate, but he was Ted Williams level bad
Mazeroski was good in the field but not Smith/Belanger/Robinson/Maranville/Aparicio level good which he would have to be to get in with those hitting skills, players like Whitaker and Grich were way way way better
@@DanielSong39 Brock could not have been that bad because I play baseball strat-o-matic which is a very realistic baseball game based upon player averages and probability with fielder ratings 1 the best and 4 the worst for a player card. It is dice probability based. I have his Cards player cards for seasons 1964 and 1967. In 1964 he is rated a 3 but in 1967 he had improved to a number 2. I agree defense was not his best but he was fast with range. I would have needed to see Mazeroski play a lot more . For the game I have his 1960 card and he rates number 1 but on his 1971 team player card I also have he is rated a 2 yet no longer a starter. I bet Whitaker had better range and why you think better. I have no idea on Grich likely him being American League. .
I still have a hard time seeing Jack Morris in the HOF with Lou Whittacker not even getting a wave. Morris was OK in the regular season, but had he played on a team without Trammel, Whittacker and Chet Lemon on defense up the middle, he would have been a 15-15 pitcher nearly every year. Heck, Lance Parrish would throw the ball back to him harder than he was pitching.
It doesnt matter how hard you throw. Ever hear of Greg Maddux?? All those players you mentioned JACK succeeded WITHOUT them. Your case against Morris is WEAK.
Morris doesn’t have the number he was an avg at best pitcher. He got in on feels about his 2 game great games pitched
@@jockusnerdius If I remember correctly, the Tigers had the rights to Trammel, Whittacker and Ozzie Smith all at the same time for entry level ball. Imagine that in field together for a decade and a half.
@@jockusnerdiusJack Morris was the best pitcher in the 1980s overall. The list is short, however.
Morris got in because of one game but what a game
Time for the HOF to change the rules for induction. Enough with that 75% garbage and give the selection process to a committee of ex players, managers and GM's. Enough with sanctimonious writers keeping good players out.
Sanctimonious writers that NEVER PLAYED THE GAME
Lol, a lot of the worst people in the Hall are selections for m veteran's committees that selected them.
Will NEVER understand why Lou Brock is, like you say, always gets talked about as a doubtful pick.
Dwight Evans, my personal favorite, will eventually get in but I hope he doesn't suffer the indignity of another long-deserving player, Ron Santo, and not living to see the day. Hard to believe Dale Murphy never got a serious look, along with Mattingly. Dave Parker too.
Dwight Evan's will NEVER be a hall of famer
@@bnegs521 Just a guess, but I'll wager that you would like to see Rose and Bonds enshrined?
@@markpekrul4393 Rose definitely not. If Bonds gets in then they ALL have to get in from the steroid era. You know the list of who I am talking about 👍
He was dreadful on defense, bad as in Matt Kemp level bad
I'm a Detroit native and lifelong Tigers fan. Couldn't agree more with your assessment of Jack Morris. As you said, or implied, when the stakes were highest, he pitched his best........love Jack The Cat.................thanks for interesting post.
Good video! I was shocked when Baines got in too. He's a classic case of a guy who accumulated numbers over a long career. He was never a top player in the league, for any stretch of time. As you noted, there are so many others like Mattingly & Jones who deserve it way more than Baines.
Jones ill agree on Mattingly not as much
Baines is a Top 30 player off all time. Nothing wrong with being a compiler. Ryan, Mays, Aaron are also compilers.
A typical Harold Baines season was very similar offensively to a typical Cal Ripken season. The difference is Ripken was also an all-time great shortstop, had "The Streak", and had a couple of outlier seasons which were considerably better. Baines' whole existence was hitting, which he was good at, but if that's all you're going to do, you need to do it at an Edgar Martinez/David Ortiz level to be a legit HOFer.
If you think Baines is a top 30 player all time you’re nuts
@@chicagofan76 ryan is fair to be called a compiler, but Mays???? bro hes the say hey kid his prime was legendary wtf are you talking about
Also, if Jack Morris is in the Hall of Fame, then why isn't Dennis Martinez in there too considering that he had roughly similar career totals? I mean, where as Jack Morris pitched a no-hitter against the Chicago White Sox in 1984 (on national television on NBC no less), Martinez took it a step further and pitched a perfect game in 1991 against the Los Angeles Dodgers.
The only clear arguments that I've heard of going against Martinez is that he never won more than 16 games a season whereas Jack Morris was a three time 20 game winner in his career. Also, Martinez never really came through when it counted the most in the World Series unlike Morris.
It isn't mentioned that Morris was 0-2 in the 1992 World Series.
I'm with you as I am far more lenient on pitchers especially old school work horses. Another guy who I never hear mentioned is Jerry Koosman who actually has a higher career WAR than both Morris and Martinez and I believe more strikeouts as well.
If Martinez had his kind of career now he'd be a much better candidate because people now realize what BS a win-loss record actually is. His case is also hurt by his time in Montreal for no reason other than he was in Montreal.
Jack Morris was the ace of the Tigers staff. He set the tone for the pitching staff and the team. He had that gritty leadership and was the face of the team. He was a Don Drysdale like player. Faced opposite the best pitchers of the opposing team. You had to see him play to appreciate his career.
Why doesn’t anyone mention Al Oliver? The guy was consistently good, year and year out.
He was very consistent. Although he is better than some in the HOF - he does fall short a bit. His defensive wasn't that good apparently either. Great team player - needed a couple more big years.
Solid contact extra base strokes a tough out velocity bat
hes firmly hall of very very good
I agree. close to 3000 hits. 11 .300 seasons.
He probably gets to 3000 hits if not for collision.
Morris being in the hall wouldn't be so bad if Stieb hadn't been snubbed so badly
Your knowledge of baseball is crazy, which always gets me tuned in.
Amazing video.
That comparison between Baines and Hernandez really reminds you that it is crazy that Hernandez is not in the HoF. He wasn't a great defensive 1B...he was just a flat out great defender...period.
Is it possible that the HOF voters snubbed Hernandez because by his own admission he used massive amounts of cocaine, including during games, during part of his career? I'm sure there are others in the HOF who used cocaine, but his case was very high profile.
How come his DWAR is pretty average (1.3) - did he not have great range?
@@jamesmurray6883 And he was a smoker - ask Elaine Benes.
@@jamesmurray6883 I think that drug scandal of the 80's definitely impacted the vote totals of players who were attached to it, like Dave Parker...Tim Raines, though Raines eventually got in, it took him a long time, probably longer than it would have otherwise.
He also gets people he barely knows to help him move.
Speaking of Lou Brock, I don’t know how anyone could knock a guy with 3000 hits. I know the analytics nerds may disagree, but certain counting stat milestones still matter to me.
Morris yes. So of course, Schilling double yes. Despicable writers.
Sherry Magee for HOF!!!!! (Seriously, the guy deserves it) Thanks for giving props to a guy who last played over a century ago...
i’ve enjoyed this video as much if not more than any you’ve done, thank you!
agree about Harold Bains and loved the man on my Orioles, but deserving for the Hall of Fame is pushing it . Have always had a problem with DH types in the hall when defense is half the game.
Mattingly is certainly deserving and should be in right this moment.
I agree about the DH it really should not be a category there's just not enough players who had the majority of their careers as DH's. But as far as full time DH's go Baines would probably be in the top 5 that's how slim that category is. But with over 2800 hits Baines has to be borderline. The only non HOF's not banned, or not connected with PED's that have more hits than Baines is , Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Ichiro, and Omar Visquel. 3 of those 4 are definite HOF's. So I agree Baines is 'barely' deserving.
Thanks for the Jack Morris love
The biggest Anti-Snub is Hawk Harrelson who won the Ford Frick Award c/o 2020...He was the biggest homer announcer in MLB history, and HORRIBLE at his job otherwise
Harrelson's place in the HOF should be in the batting gloves exhibit, where he was the 1st modern player to wear them
Belongs to the Hall of Fame of Unusual Noses
If Jack Morris belongs in the Hall of Fame, so do Dave Stieb and Frank Tanana.
Dave Stieb definitely belongs in the Hall. Morris is not a terrible selection, and Tanana wouldn't be either.
Steib and Tanana in the HOF? You will put anyone in. This is what happens when guys on the fringe get in. Then there are several other fringe players that can be comparable to them.
Dennis Martinez
I never got the election of Jim Rice
He was a total product of Fenway Park and hit way worse than most Rockies stars on the road like Larry Walker and Todd Helton
Also Catfish Hunter was only had like 4 or 5 Hall of Fame seasons and is only in for being one of the first big free agent signings and the name “Catfish” and other than those seasons he was a low winning and high E.R.A giving up machine
Harold Baines had a 22 year career, but on average achieved less than 1.8 bWAR per season, making him less valuable than an average starting player. In fact, he only topped 2.9 bWAR twice in his career, and even then just barely. His longevity is really his only strong point, and that was heavily aided by playing DH and almost never being called upon to steal bases. A HoFer needs to be significantly more productive than this. Baines is a MASSIVE Anti-Snub. (Good video, though.)
Lou Brock put a lot of pressure on the defense. Pitchers would have to slide step and throw fastballs. He made his teammates better. Ask Torre, Cepeda, and other power hitters for the Cardinals.
If it were stats alone there would be no need to vote.
I will take issue with anyone that says Mazeroski doesn’t belong in. He was one of the best defensive second baseman ever not to mention he hit the biggest home run in history and belongs just for that.
Meh weak case
His fielding was great but as a player I'd say he's miles behind Grich, Whitaker, and Randolph
His closest comparison is Frank White
Suprised Lee Smith not on list.
Reinsdork bullying Baines in was despicable. Love Harold but not worthy.
Good stuff Erik keep up the awesome job 🎉
I love your videos! You inspired me to make my own channel so thank you
Btw I really keep forgetting how good Keith Hernandez was and was amazed at the Gold Glove stat
Also starred in one of the greatest Seinfeld episodes of all time!
"I'm Keith Hernandez!"
Great channel !! when it was a game!! bringing back great players & memories. Controversial is right. Rizzuto (Anti-Snub same as Baines no reason to be HOF . Rizutto's numbers are not HOF . Then you have Tiant vs Morris. Tiant shoud be in HOF
Disagree. Rizzuto was an MVP, and two other years top 10. Seven time world champion. If not for 3 years lost to WWII, he would have had over 2000 hits over 13 seasons. His defense was elite. So he wasn't a power hitter (not that the Yankees needed more power), he still had more HR than Rick Farrell! He was a winner that did whatever was needed to win (193 sacrifice bunts). He himself said he wasn't deserving, but his continued high profile as an announcer probably got him in with the veterans committee.
Rick Ferrell’s brother, pitcher Wes Ferrell, is seriously underrated. His advanced stats aren’t that far off from his contemporary Lefty Grove.
agreed 100%
Wes was also one of the greatest hitting pitchers of all-time, arguably a better hitter than Rick.
Loved this content. Very well stated and presented. I was glad that the veterns committee put Jack Morris in. I hope one day that Hernandez, Dale Murphy and Lou Whittaker will make it.
Just rename it hall of the VERY GOOD and get it over with
Back in the day, RBIs was a meaningful stat. By virtue of holding that one, unbreakable single season record (he also had a career 307 BA), Wilson totally deserves his place in the HOF.
Nonsense. RBI men are almost always overrated. In a hitter's era, a hitter's park, guys always on base in front of him, Wilson puts up monster numbers...
For three years. After McCarthy was fired, Hack fell back into being the player McGraw couldn't be bothered to protect on the Giant's roster, his career ended quickly and his alcoholism caught up with him and he died young.
@@brianthomas2434RBI men are almost always overrated?! What an obnoxious comment!
@legrandfromage6450 thanks, my dear cheese, for insulting me.
And making no attempt to refute my points about the big hitting era, the line up of table setters or playing in a bandbox.
Great content Erik.
I think a lot of the voters who vote players into the Hall of Fame based their votes on snap shots of certain players at the time.
You need to follow up on this one. You’ve created a lot of debates not only with fans… But also in my own head. It’s got me thinking… Nice job.
Glad you mentioned Keith Hernandez… I grew up in Pacifica four years behind him had the same pony league coach met his dad twice. I’ve been a fan of his since he was 12 years old, and I was eight years old.
I’ve always compared his stats to Bill Mazeroski.
People should read or listen to Keith Hernandez’s book.” I am Keith Hernandez.” you will learn about the grind that he had to endure to get to him to the show. Remember he wasn’t a high draft choice.
And also research Lefty O Dual his dominance in the MLB was short. But so was Sandy Koufax.
Keep it up Erick
Lefty O'Doul is a guy who should be in the HOF, not necessarily for his MLB playing career, which was very good, but too short, but for the fact that he, more than any other American, was responsible for making the game popular in Japan. Also, he spent the bulk of his minor league career in San Francisco, so he should be right up Erik's alley.
@@big8dog887 you got that right!
My father, who worked on third Street took me to lefty o duels place when I was little baseball nut kid. I didn’t know who I was talking to… But I could sit up at the bar if I drank a Roy Rogers (grenadine and 7-Up) my dad and my uncle would bring home ribs from Lefty O’Doul‘s.
I found out later what a special man Lefty ODual was.
San Francisco had so much personality in those days… Once at Bruno‘s, I saw Lon Simmons.
No one questioned Lou Brock before moneyball and WAR. Brock for Broglio was legendary until recent times.
If you've never read Bill James` Whatever Happened To The Hall Of Fame I highly, highly recommend it. It might be a little dated now, but it's the first great book on tha HOF debate. Most of the guys elected through the cronyism of Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry in the 1970s are among the worst ever selections.
Conclusion: You need to be a good guy with sportswriters to get in. Only friends of journalists may get in.
That's true with just about any HOF or "awards" contest. You have to win over the media or you be left behind.
Steve Garvey should be inducted in HOF...especially when players of his era are in like Baines, Simmons, Rice, Stargell, etc.
You had a good argument until you mentioned Stargell. Stargell was 10 times better than Garvey. Maybe the womanizing and paternity test hurt him
@@bradfordpalmer2795 - Is womanizing a baseball stat? 🤣 Anyway, if you compare Stargell's & Garvey's stats they're very similar. Both were NL MVP, both won NLCS MVP, Both won WS MVP, Stargell was a 7X All Star, Garvey was 10X All Star, Garvey won 4X Gold Gloves, Stargell never earned a gold glove.
Hits: Stargell had 2232 - Garvey had 2599
HR: Stargell 475 - Garvey 272
RBI: Stargell 1540 - Garvey 1308
BA: Stargell .282 - Garvey .294
Runs: Stargell 1194 - Garvey 1143
OBP: Stargell .360 - Garvey .329
Garvey's stats are proof enough he is a legit Hall of Famer. IMO, Garvey has been grossly overlooked....
@@paolo-n2000 I suspect Garvey might have been forgiven for the womanizing if he hadn't been marketing himself for years as such an All-American example of clean living and integrity.
I think that may have hurt his chances.
That being said, I think he should be in the hall.
It's easier to play defense in Los Angeles' perfectly manicured grass compared to the crap astro turf with all the seams and bumps of the rock hard Three Rivers Stadium.
@@someperson8151 - Was it "easier" for Willie Stargell to play defense for 8 seasons at Forbes Field...you know, with the "unfair" advantage of playing baseball on "manicured grass"??? 🤣🤣🤣
Those who think that Lou Brock isn't deserving of the Hall of Fame ought to have their head examine.
Baines definitely deserves to be in the HoF.
My thoughts on this list:
1.) Tommy McCarthy: Definitely should not be in the HOF.
2.) Ray Schalk: I think he belongs due to his position as a catcher....defense was KING for catchers back in the day. They didn't care if you couldn't hit a broadside of a barn. Based on that, I agree with his induction. Magee should definitely be in as well, he got screwed.
3.) Hack Wilson: This is an interesting case but I think he belongs there....many players are in his position with short run dominances.
4.) Lloyd Waner: He's marginal, but I personally don't think he should be in.
5.) Rick Ferrell: No....he's good, but not great.
6.) Bill Mazeroski: Definitely not.
7.) Lou Brock: Wait a minute, he's on this list?? Ridiculous! Definite Hall of Famer.
8.) Bruce Sutter: Closers never get enough respect, but he was one of the early closers where most of them pitched multiple innings to get their saves instead of just one. He actually pitched 1,000 career innings, which most do not get to. I personally think he belongs there, but it's not by much.
9.) Jack Morris: Morris was a beast, but the traditional numbers hurt him a lot. I personally think he belongs there, that man was clutch!
10.) Harold Baines: I don't think he should be in, his numbers all are cumulative based on longevity. He was never a dominant player......good, but never dominant.
And Fuck Chris Russo....I just wanted to say that, I don't care if he's right about Baines. That man needs to retire.
Harold Baines in the Hall but not Bernie Williams or Don Mattingly, like how
Reinsdorf
In the case of Jack Morris, I do wonder if his legendary performance in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series (the ten inning-shut out game against Atlanta) was the ultimate deal or tie-breaker for his Hall of Fame candidacy. On the same token, you can argue that an entire career shouldn't be about or come down to a single game. And while it wasn't mentioned in the video, Jack Morris did if I have my facts straight, win more games than any other pitcher in the 1980s.
Well you could argue that stieb was the better “overall” pitcher of the 80s
When it comes to pitchers, how come no one brings up league pitched in. That matters a lot. Jack Morris pitched his whole career in the AL facing DH's. NL pitchers had a hug advantage with pitchers hitting. Most HOF pitchers over the last 50 years have come out of the NL. Lower eras, more strikeouts higher win totals. Weaker line ups help that out big time.
You missed Phil Rizzuto
How in hell he got in
He got in because he was a Yankee and then a Yankee radio guy. I guess he promoted himself
@@Benjamin-et3ii had buddies on the committee too
Maybe he helped HoF committee members get sweethearts loans from the Money Store.
@@Benjamin-et3iiYes, ONLY got in as a colorful New Yorker
Thanks for anything baseball Eric💯⚾😎
Great topic. Some players are really good players, but not great. Never the main cog, but great supporting members of a TEAM. Most couldn’t carry a team like Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Spahn, Marichal, Mize, Feller, Ted Williams. That’s the difference between Hall of Fame and really good. Milestone numbers shouldn’t mean automatic induction to the Hall of Fame.
I was surprised when Baines got in and Dwight Evans is still out. Evans beats Baines in the important stats throughout his career. The big difference is Evans played a great right field his whole career and had a cannon for an arm. I want to throw Fred Lynn in there as well. Played great, tough defense and was a good hitter.
Another good video Humm Baby Baseball (idk what else to call you lol), I do have some disagreements but there are ones I can get behind, as is usual in conversations like these. Starting from the top:
Tommy McCarthy- the claim he invented the hit and run is dubious at best, and even with that, I don't think he is a HOFer, so yeah, I'd say he's an "anti-snub"
Ray Schalk- well, here we are already at my first major disagreement, and I will note I'm not trying to say that Schalk is an "Inner circle" HOFer, and certainly by the standards of today, yeah, he wouldn't make it. That being said, Catchers back in his era were often as bad at hitting as pitchers, so an 83 career OPS+ is actually not bad, and I'd argue his defense is enough in this case. Most of the catchers that have a higher career peak value and overall value came from the 1950s or later so that is also something to note; when he retired in 1929 you could make a fairly reasonable argument that Schalk was a top 5-7 Catcher of all time, behind Mickey Cochrane, Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett, maybe Johnny Kling, and one other player who is a legitimately better option from this era for the HOF than Schalk. That isn't to say Schalk wasn't a deserving HOFer in my opinion, he is, but there is one better option I will get to when discussing Rick Ferrell who I'm surprised you didn't bring up to be honest.
Hack Wilson-I'd agree the peak of his career lasted just long enough, and was just dominant enough, that he is deserving.
Lloyd Waner-This one, this one I must respectfully disagree with you on. Firstly, he has less than 30 career WAR, and isn't a catcher either where that is harder to measure in some ways at times (framing anyone?). But secondly, yes he had 2400+ career hits, yes his career started well. Yes he hit .300 for his career. Most players did in the 30s for at least a good portion of their career. He also never walked, and his career OPS+ was 99. Below league average. Even in his peak years between 1927 and 1932 it was only 109, solid but not great either. My personal choice for the worst selection of all time if I'm being honest.
Rick Ferrell-Alright, so, Rick Ferrell. Anti-snub for sure, but why? Well, catcher offense standards were beginning to evolve from when Schalk played, and to be fair Ferrell had a career OPS+ of 95 so okay I guess, but, there is an all-time snub I want to highlight that has way better stats overall than Schalk or Ferrell. That is Wally Schang. 48 career WAR as a catcher. Over 1500 hits. 59 homeruns (keep in mind, he started his career in the deadball era). Over 100 recorded stolen bases as a catcher. Solid defender. And was a career 117 OPS+. Why is he not in the HOF? Anyway tangent aside, I'd vote Schang and not Ferrell, and even over Schalk although Schalk is deserving in my opinion.
Bill Mazaeroski-One great moment does not make you a HOFer. Sorry Maz. Anti-snub.
Lou Brock-Lou Brock is the definition of "deserving", even if he's not an inner-circle HOFer. You nailed all the good points.
Bruce Sutter-Bruce Sutter is like the relief version of Tommy McCarthy, albeit better-pioneer, in multiple ways, but not deserving of a plaque.
Harold Baines-I don't think he should be in, and wouldn't personally vote for him, but I won't deny he was "Hall of Very Good" and a great guy, "Hall of Nice" if ever was such a thing.
TL;DR-Elect Wally Schang to the HOF already.
I gotta rip on Scott Rolen. Solid career. Very good. I know the saber guys use advanced stats to make his case, but he just doesn’t pass the eyeball test for me. I don’t think anyone who watched him thought he was the best of the best.
If Baines deserves the HOF then so does Dwight Evans. Similar length of career, similar home runs, similar avg. but Baines has many more RBIs yet Evans was a legendary fielder. Baines couldn’t field his way out of a paper bag. Baines is a no in my mind.
Agree Mattingly, Hernandez sure do belong... Mattingly had that bad back but when healthy he was the best in the AL. He could really hit and pick it at 1st base..... Hernandez the best defensive first baseman in the NL and he could hit too...! Both belong...!
As a Pirates fan I agree with Maz. I was always surprised on his HOF. Having said that Al Oliver and Dave Parker should be in.
Dave Parker shouldn't be in. 40 WAR? Come on. Then you would have to vote Rusty Staub and Jesse Barfield in.
The Cobra should be in. The man terrified pitchers
On the Harold Baines case, people have to remember that if you discount steroid guys + Pete Rose and Omar Vizquel for individual scandal reasons, every hitter with as many career hits as Baines has eventually made the Hall of Fame
Whenever I saw Harold on the field, I never said he was a great player. 21 years to compile numbers.
@@cjrrun To be fair, he had some great years, and playing 21 years with a 121 career OPS+ is a great accomplishment in itself. Most players with at least 10000 plate appearances and a career OPS+ of 120 are in the HOF
@@luscorpio3679 - Baines was a DH who couldn't play in the field. He was an above average hitter, that's it!
@@paolo-n2000 DH or not, having a career 121 OPS+ in a career that lasted over 20 years and 10 000 plate appearances goes well beyond your description
@@luscorpio3679 - Baines would have had a much shorter career if there wasn't a DH. Baines was a liability on the field.
I am of the opinion that the problem with HoF selection of players like Baines is not an issue of "not deserved", but that there are just so many players with similar careers that deserve it just as much. Dale Murphy, Steve Garvey, Tommy John are just a few that come to mind.
George “High Pockets” Kelly should not be in the Hall of Fame.
With Suter, I think it was that he was the first true superstar closer.
Rollie Fingers.
@@iamhungey12345 or if you want to go further back, Dick Radatz.
Problem with comparing Schalk to Magee. I feel you should be comparing him to the catchers of his era first then to catchers in history. Should more likely have compared him to Wally Schang. The writers may have confused the two when voting, 😋 Using the stats shown in the video, Wally had 48.0 war 1506 hits ,284 BA .794 OPS 705 RBI. Please note he had a higher OPS then Magee. Defensive stats are suspect, but for now he threw out 46% base stealers at a time when the average was 44%. He also happened to play on 7 world series teams, played in 6 of them and won 4 rings for people who factor in post season play.
Good video. Regarding Jack Morris, he definitely should have been voted in by the writers. He was the winningest pitcher of the 80's and he did win the clinching game of 3 World Series, for Detroit, Minnesota and Toronto. He was a money pitcher.
My list of snubs: Roger Maris (61 HRS!), Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Parker, Tommy John, Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and Shoeless Joe Jackson. Maybe Dave Concepcion, Luis Tiant, Keith Hernandez, and Gary Sheffield too.
Bruce Sutter was invincible...........until he met Mr. Sandberg.
Baines never had a dominant offensive season. But from 1981-1999, he never had a bad offensive season either. At age of 40, he hit .312 with 25 HR and 103 RBI. Not many players at the age not connected with PEDs have been that productive. Also, the majority of his career he played with bad knees. Could have put up even better numbers and played the field if his knees were healthy.
Longevity and piling up stats and numbers vs a shorter period of dominance will always be subjective and debated. I am more impressed with pitchers piling up numbers than hitters by far. Especially DH'S like Baines.
Rick Ferrell's 28 home runs are less than his brother Wes hit, & Wes was a pitcher!
The age-old question: Do players who are primarily defensive greats get to go or not? As time goes by, the chances of a defensive whiz going to the HOF will lessen
Lou Brock: of course he should have gone, he excelled at the style of baseball being played...but, if he hadn't gone in when he did, he wouldn't have made it, given how modern HOF voters view statistics
Harold Baines was a very good, occasionally great player, but, not HOF-worthy
With your first question, no. Mark Belanger was an amazing shortstop, but a little leaguer with the bat. He definitely does not belong, despite his defensive ability and him being an Oriole.
(I'm an O's fan haha)
If Baines is a hall of famer, then Rusty Staub should be also. Their comps are quite similar.
Luis Tiant deserves to be in the HOF so does Dwight Evans (buena notches )
Agreed
Luis has to be voted into the Hall of Fame, you're absolutely right.
By the way, Beltre is the real Hall of Famer in the room, by far.
@@tommcconville677 I agree about Beltre but Joe Mauer 🤯 no way
Bizarre that Brock is discussed at all. He's everything you want in a HOFer.
Every year the NFL hall of Fame is snubbing a worthy candidate, especially with some of the guys in the past two years. I like baseball cause if everything that makes it different than all the other sports but I think that snubbing guys while still having guys get in on sentimentality alone is garbage
I'd say yes to Bruce Sutter. He was one of the best closers of his time. A ridiculous election is Scott Rolen. Every third baseman in the Hall has either 500 HRs or 3,000 hits or both and Rolen doesn't even come close to either.
You clearly never saw Mazeroski play. He was and still is today the #1 best fielding 2B of all time. No one comes close. His fielding put him alongside Ozzie, Brooks Robinson and Keith Hernandez as the best fielders of their positions in baseball history. That, my friend, is Hall of Fame worthy.
Agreed, Mazeroski was a strong defensive player, and I am old enough to have seen him play. Still, one has to wonder why he wasn't at shortstop instead of second base if his fielding was that good. Let's be honest, with a .260 average and .299 OBP, if he didn't hit that home run he wouldn't be in the Hall.
@@zanti4132 Maz wasn't at short because the Pirates had all-star Dick Groat there, so Branch Rickey moved him to 2B.
@@rlsfrny Yes, when Mazeroski was just starting out. When the Pirates traded Groat a few years later, you'd think they have acknowledged Mazeroski's talent in the infield by moving him to shortstop, but, no, Dick Schofield got the job.
@@zanti4132 Not for long. Gene Alley came up in '64.
In those days, they didn't move infielders around like they do now. Can you name any 2B that moved to SS back then?
@@rlsfrny No I can't, but that's consistent with the notion that the guy playing 2nd base is there because the team has a better fielder to play shortstop. It all comes down to relative merit. Calling Mazeroski the greatest fielding 2nd baseman of all time, which I'm not about to dispute, is to me like saying Joe Blow was the greatest relief pitcher of the 1950s - I mean, he was a relief pitcher because his manager didn't think he was good enough to be a starter.
With that said, out of curiosity I looked up which teams turned the most double plays during Mazeroski's time in the majors, and the Pirates were consistently at the top each year with Mazeroski plus whoever they had at shortstop. So there's that. 😀
Dick allen snubbed up until his passing and insult to fans and a snub to a long time dominant slugger
with bills homerun it was a game 7. and carters was game 6
Well... the Hall is inclusive, but not all inclusive.
It's got a Yaz and a Maz but no Rose.
There are plenty of superstars, and then there are the give-it-all-you-got real baseball players like Charlie Hustle.
I'm OK with the guy who invented the hit-n-run being in the HoF w/merely good (not great) hitting stats.
Just to play the devil's advocate, because you're probably right: McCarthy was so highly regarded most likely because of his having pioneered a style of play (hit and run, scratch baseball) that made players like Cobb possible. So perhaps he was credited with having taken the game right where it was supposed to go, just as Babe Ruth was to do decades later.
That’s why it’s a huge museum that can put a nice picture and talk about him.
Harold Baines is what happens when you make a committee with a very limited range (post 1988) and expect them to nominate someone. Even then, though they could have at least nominated candidates who were better in that very limited range of years like Will Clark or Orel Hershiser, who still both may not exactly be first ballot quality guys, but at least you can make an argument that they were amongst the best of that generation. Harold Baines was just an average player who managed to accumulate some fairly impressive cumulative stats as a DH.
The thing too is that Baines had Tony LaRussa, Roberto Alonar, and another teammates on the committee.
@@SkyhawkEB Yup. Exactly. All methods of getting in the hall are incredibly biased other than the old-timer's committee, since most of their teammates are dead and it's historians.
Great video ! Baines was really kind of like some other great players like Fred McGriff , Steve Garvey and even Hank Aaron ! You didn't have a string of consecutive seasons with eye - popping numbers...they were grinders. In Baines case...you could put him down for a .300 average, 20 Hr's and 90 RBI. Henry Aaron only had ONE 40 HR season...but you could put him down every year for .300 average, 30 Hr's and 100 RBI ! I think when you see guys produce the same consistent production over the course of a 15 or 20 year career fans and voters take them for granted and argue "Well they never ( or only once ) won a such and such award or title !" As oppose to the guys who either starte the first 5 to 7 years on fire and fade out..or have that 5 or 6 year run of greatness mid career.
Lol, Hank Aaron hit at least 40 homers in 8 separate seasons and had 3 other seasons of at least 38 homers(league leader in homers 4x).
Hank never had a 50 homer season which is crazy to think about.
As you said he was very consistent but never put up the gaudy numbers the likes of Ruth, Gehrig, Bonds, Sosa, McGuire and Rodriguez.
@@riltalk4055 I stand corrected ! But you got my point...it's seems like when he had big seasons he was overshadowed by another player having a bigger season...but you could guarantee him every season having 30+ HR's, 90 + RBI and hit .300 or close to it.
@@keithsowder4308 He’s the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar of the MLB.
In the sense that people recognize his consistent greatness but rarely is he ever given that “GOAT” title.
For Kareem, it’s always Jordan and Lebron.
For Hank, it’s Ruth, Bonds, Mays and some are starting to mention Ohtani.
@@riltalk4055 Exactly...another example ( no matter how much people may not like it ) is Pete Rose...yeah when he had the hit streak people paid attention...but for most of his career you could write him down to hit .300 or better, score 90 + runs and get 200 hits...like Aaron he was an afterthought ( outside if the cities they played in ) when it came to great players...and it stayed that way until they were chasing all - time records.
Chicago seems to be common denominator with a bunch of these players.
1. McCarthy-No, 2. Schalk-No, 3.Wilson-Yes(just barely), 4. Waner No, 5. Ferrell-No 6. Maz Yes(Just Barely) 7.Brock--Yes 8. Sutter-No 9.Morris No 10. Baines, No.
very nice video in which I agreed with most of it. Thanks
This a a good video, very accurate.
Had me nervous for a minute when I saw Lou Brock. LEGEND in any kid’s mind who watched the game then. 1974 was MAGICAL!
Bill Madlock won four batting titles and had a long career. I never hear his name mentioned.
He was good, but not great. He had a funky batting stance similar to Rod Carew. Because of the batting stance, most people compared him to Carew. His numbers are not close to Carew's numbers.
1:08 There was a Tennis HoFer named Bob Hewitt who got revoked from his HoF status in 2016 because of child m0le$tation.
As a tennis fan I did not know this. It makes me wonder if they can do it in tennis why not in football where OJ Simpson is concerned. Certainly HOF #'s but we all know of his after career extra curricular activities.
Glad Baines made your cut, if only just. He is an easy yes for me. Should've happened a decade before it actually did, tbh. His combination of consistency & longevity is pretty much unmatched, as you noted. But he was also a pioneer as the first great longterm, more-or-less "pure" DH. And as far as primary designated hitters go, he's *still* comfortably in the top-10 ever all these years later, and I don't really see that changing anytime soon. DH is absolutely not the easy plug & play position it's almost always regarded as, and being the first great one & still amongst the very best at it carries a lot of weight with me.
Sutter also makes the cut for me, and I say this as someone who was dubious back when he actually got in. But while the overall longevity leaves something to be desired, he still might've been the best closer ever at the time of his retirement. And I've come to appreciate how much different the job was back then. There weren't as many chances to get saves, since starters still regularly completed games at a pretty good clip. And the opportunities often required multiple innings of work to cash in when they came up. Eckersley was transitioning to the pen & had just begun to popularize the idea of the single inning closer by the time Sutter was on his way out.