Great video. I also have noticed no difference between my carbon limbs at $270 and my bamboo limbs at $40. It really is your form and consistency.... poundage doesn't hurt either!
S-glass compositr would make a great bow composite. It is by volume the strongest material (it is just a little heavier than carbon fiber). You also have higher elasticity, would be interesting to see what that would do to a bow. But yeah weight in general would change the power more significantly -- energy in, energy out. Carbon fiber is just light and stiff for a material.
Great Video! It would appear that design is a bigger speed factor than material choices. I shoot a 50# @28" glass/wood/bamboo hybrid that has a safe maximum draw of 32" My bow stacks past 28" so when I started using a thumb ring it lengthened my draw to 32" My bow draws 67# at 32." Simply using the thumb ring increased arrow speed considerably even at 28." The increased draw and draw weight has really pumped up arrow speed. I did have to adjust arrow spine though. After it was all tuned up I am thrilled with the result. PS:Even at 28" I almost always have pass through on 140-150lb. whitetails. I suspect the increased speed could increase my range somewhat although my range choice has always been around 30 yards max.
Awesome comparison. I was looking to buy a (survival) bow, but I wasn't sure if I should splurge for the good ones or to just build one myself. I'm NOT a bowyer. I do build structures with weird materials. (Not always from advanced materials, sometimes the exact opposite, in situ or whatever is available including straw, clay, mud, granite, etc) Watching this video and the findings had me wondering about how to choose materials for a bow. If you consider that the bow is a beam-like structure which flexes the maximum on its outer surface, then this type of construction is the least efficient design (the bows shown in this video, and most other bows available on the market). If we look at aircraft and boats where wood was traditionally used, composites and aluminum have almost entirely replaced wood as a structural material. Now, I love the feel of wood and its appeal to craftspeople as something to build furniture and handles out of. But it looks like wood is the weak link in any bow these days. Even wood glue has become several times stronger than wood itself, no point even comparing it to epoxy fiberglass or carbon fiber composites. Carbon fiber composite is a rigid, non springy material traditionally used where you want minimum weight and maximum stiffness. Using it on the outside of a bow is the worst possible location considering what you'd usually choose it for. Looks like most bows have a cosmetic rather than a functional layer of CF. Fiberglass actually has better tensile strength than carbon fiber when used properly. Stiffness however is the forte of CF. Search CZcams for I-Beam structural mechanics, it's pretty fun to watch in this context. Also search for comparisons between composites of glass fiber, carbon fiber against aluminum and steel. Wood is always an unknown because grain structure and density is always different, even between samples from the same tree. It cannot be compared to homogeneous materials like steel or aluminum, or to composites made from GF or CF which are far more predictable. In my opinion fiberglass should be the outermost layer for its tensile strength and elasticity, with a three-layer CF-Foam-CF core for its light weight and stiffness and lastly a somewhat rounded aluminum inner layer or belly for its light weight and favorable compressive strength Compared to wood. Aluminum also work-hardens and age-hardens. Which means, as you get used to this hypothetical bow over several weeks, the bow should become stiffer with time allowing you to get higher poundage and arrow speeds. If anyone attempts to build such a bow, please post it here. Although I'm definitely considering building one myself.
The only real difference in speed came from an increase in bow weight. There is no price difference for a heavier bow, however there can be a difference in the kind of materials you choose for your bow. The carbon/foam limb bow cost quite a bit more to make, but I am not currently offering it. Since it is a prototype, I will have to do some testing with it before In offer it to the public.
glass fiber is obiously the better suited material for the role as a energy preserving spring. It has less hysteresis than carbon fiber and a much lower youngs modulus, yet the total strength is about the same. Combine this with the 10% elongation and you know it is better. Look up tactical crossbows. Carbonfiber would need much longer limbs than glass fiber, becauce glass fiber can "bend" much more.
I’ve heard people talk like that. I don’t believe it works that way. The limb is all glued together as one piece. There’s no pushing and pulling going on.
This is the arrow setup I've been hunting with lately. For most of my life, I've used wood arrows between 500 gr and 550 gr. When I switched to carbon, I went down in weight hoping to maintain penetration with higher FOC, but gain speed. Most of my failures with animals have been due to them jumping string, rather than a lack of penetration.
Well, in most cases a heavier arrow can quiet the bow down. Deer "Jump the string" on compounds all the time unless you are inside 20 yards, and they are definitely faster. I will say I think you are spot on with going for a higher FOC. I also avoid fast flight strings as they are definitely louder. I've even started making my own custom Dacron Flemish twist strings to help my bows stay quieter. Right now, I am working on tuning what will be a wooden arrow between 640 to 750 grains for my 55# Toelke Chinook recurve. God Bless, and straight shooting.
Ps~ Hope you didn't take my reply as a slight on your knowledge. It was not meant to be. As an individual who is attempting to get into building his own bows this year, I do respect the craftsmanship you put into your bows. It's why I have not owned a compound for over 7 years now. Traditional equipment has both an art and a soul to it. I appreciate that you took the time to reply, and that you are putting your videos up on youtube for other aspiring bowyers.
i have fiberglassed a bow with 2 part apoxy and it just didnt seem right and after drying i left the bowq for about a week and i noticed the fiberglass was bubbling and with further examination i discovered that the apoxy resin was damp and tacky under neath the fiberglass any advice you can give would be greatfuly appreciated i am new to the fiberglass system i dont know if it is the fiberglass at issue or the apoxy the bow works but i does need a little reenforceing we do not seem to get the same quality of fiberglass i can only get the matting and not the thicker fiber yours truly jack boyd
I use Gordon's Bo-Tuff fiberglass, and Smooth-On epoxy. They are both sold specific for Bow making. They are sold by bowyer suppliers. The epoxy needs to be heated to 180 degrees F for 4 hours to cure properly. I don't think I showed it on the video, but I have a home made oven that I put the entire mold into. It's around 72"x12"x24" deep and has 3- 100 watt incandescent light bulbs on top. It's insulated and has a thermometer and timer. Hope this helps. Good luck.
i asume that would be in the united kingdom and here we take to pay tax for anything in comming into this country sad but true a getting a hold of any thing is difficult the only 2 part apoxy resin i have seen comes in 1oz and that is the best we can get here in derby anyway
Tests are interesting, but completely irrelevant for hunting. I’ve hunted with all types of bows and keep falling back to the recurve or long bow... chronographing recurve/long bows almost always shoot under 200 FPS and and speed demon bows with training wheels shoot well over 300fps. At the end of the day the hunter needs to know the arc of the arrow (shot placement), and the limitations and advantages to each type of bow, my biggest stalk and harvest of my biggest black bear was taken with the first straight limbed longbow that I made in 1986. It’s a 60 pound long bow. I love all types of bows and respect people’s choices for each style, but don’t understand why people get caught up in chronographing arrows with traditional equipment
The whole point of this video was to push back on the idea that modern materials offer a significant performance gain over traditional materials. A chronograph is a tool to measure one of the ingredients of performance. Speed does matter, but not the small variation in speed measured in this test.
Great video. I also have noticed no difference between my carbon limbs at $270 and my bamboo limbs at $40. It really is your form and consistency.... poundage doesn't hurt either!
S-glass compositr would make a great bow composite. It is by volume the strongest material (it is just a little heavier than carbon fiber). You also have higher elasticity, would be interesting to see what that would do to a bow. But yeah weight in general would change the power more significantly -- energy in, energy out. Carbon fiber is just light and stiff for a material.
Good review, thanks
Great video
Great Video! It would appear that design is a bigger speed factor than material choices. I shoot a 50# @28" glass/wood/bamboo hybrid that has a safe maximum draw of 32" My bow stacks past 28" so when I started using a thumb ring it lengthened my draw to 32" My bow draws 67# at 32." Simply using the thumb ring increased arrow speed considerably even at 28." The increased draw and draw weight has really pumped up arrow speed. I did have to adjust arrow spine though. After it was all tuned up I am thrilled with the result.
PS:Even at 28" I almost always have pass through on 140-150lb. whitetails. I suspect the increased speed could increase my range somewhat although my range choice has always been around 30 yards max.
Awesome comparison. I was looking to buy a (survival) bow, but I wasn't sure if I should splurge for the good ones or to just build one myself.
I'm NOT a bowyer. I do build structures with weird materials. (Not always from advanced materials, sometimes the exact opposite, in situ or whatever is available including straw, clay, mud, granite, etc) Watching this video and the findings had me wondering about how to choose materials for a bow.
If you consider that the bow is a beam-like structure which flexes the maximum on its outer surface, then this type of construction is the least efficient design (the bows shown in this video, and most other bows available on the market).
If we look at aircraft and boats where wood was traditionally used, composites and aluminum have almost entirely replaced wood as a structural material. Now, I love the feel of wood and its appeal to craftspeople as something to build furniture and handles out of. But it looks like wood is the weak link in any bow these days. Even wood glue has become several times stronger than wood itself, no point even comparing it to epoxy fiberglass or carbon fiber composites.
Carbon fiber composite is a rigid, non springy material traditionally used where you want minimum weight and maximum stiffness. Using it on the outside of a bow is the worst possible location considering what you'd usually choose it for. Looks like most bows have a cosmetic rather than a functional layer of CF.
Fiberglass actually has better tensile strength than carbon fiber when used properly. Stiffness however is the forte of CF. Search CZcams for I-Beam structural mechanics, it's pretty fun to watch in this context. Also search for comparisons between composites of glass fiber, carbon fiber against aluminum and steel. Wood is always an unknown because grain structure and density is always different, even between samples from the same tree. It cannot be compared to homogeneous materials like steel or aluminum, or to composites made from GF or CF which are far more predictable.
In my opinion fiberglass should be the outermost layer for its tensile strength and elasticity, with a three-layer CF-Foam-CF core for its light weight and stiffness and lastly a somewhat rounded aluminum inner layer or belly for its light weight and favorable compressive strength Compared to wood. Aluminum also work-hardens and age-hardens. Which means, as you get used to this hypothetical bow over several weeks, the bow should become stiffer with time allowing you to get higher poundage and arrow speeds.
If anyone attempts to build such a bow, please post it here. Although I'm definitely considering building one myself.
great video
Hey Travis need some help to identify my boato identify my bow 62" pound it is marked Viking thank you
Can you do the same test with heavier arrows? So your bows can really show their potential at different workloads?
Good video... among the recurves, is there a correlation between speed and price of the bow?
The only real difference in speed came from an increase in bow weight. There is no price difference for a heavier bow, however there can be a difference in the kind of materials you choose for your bow. The carbon/foam limb bow cost quite a bit more to make, but I am not currently offering it. Since it is a prototype, I will have to do some testing with it before In offer it to the public.
Hey Travis I hope you can read my crazy text. 62" marked Viking.
that bow at 4.12 looks like one of byrons bows
glass fiber is obiously the better suited material for the role as a energy preserving spring. It has less hysteresis than carbon fiber and a much lower youngs modulus, yet the total strength is about the same. Combine this with the 10% elongation and you know it is better. Look up tactical crossbows. Carbonfiber would need much longer limbs than glass fiber, becauce glass fiber can "bend" much more.
I thought the carbon fiber was suppose to go on the back only. Wouldn't the two sides cancel each other out if it's on both sides?
I’ve heard people talk like that. I don’t believe it works that way. The limb is all glued together as one piece. There’s no pushing and pulling going on.
Use a clicker for your tests..
You're probably right Steve. You know, you could always do your own test and do it how you like.
What's your arrow weight?
450 gr. I'm drawing around 27"
That is a very light arrow for a Traditional archery set up. Is that just the weight you chose to use as a constant for speed testing?
This is the arrow setup I've been hunting with lately. For most of my life, I've used wood arrows between 500 gr and 550 gr. When I switched to carbon, I went down in weight hoping to maintain penetration with higher FOC, but gain speed. Most of my failures with animals have been due to them jumping string, rather than a lack of penetration.
Well, in most cases a heavier arrow can quiet the bow down. Deer "Jump the string" on compounds all the time unless you are inside 20 yards, and they are definitely faster. I will say I think you are spot on with going for a higher FOC. I also avoid fast flight strings as they are definitely louder. I've even started making my own custom Dacron Flemish twist strings to help my bows stay quieter. Right now, I am working on tuning what will be a wooden arrow between 640 to 750 grains for my 55# Toelke Chinook recurve.
God Bless, and straight shooting.
Ps~ Hope you didn't take my reply as a slight on your knowledge. It was not meant to be. As an individual who is attempting to get into building his own bows this year, I do respect the craftsmanship you put into your bows. It's why I have not owned a compound for over 7 years now. Traditional equipment has both an art and a soul to it. I appreciate that you took the time to reply, and that you are putting your videos up on youtube for other aspiring bowyers.
i have fiberglassed a bow with 2 part apoxy and it just didnt seem right and after drying i left the bowq for about a week and i noticed the fiberglass was bubbling and with further examination i discovered that the apoxy resin was damp and tacky under neath the fiberglass any advice you can give would be greatfuly appreciated i am new to the fiberglass system i dont know if it is the fiberglass at issue or the apoxy the bow works but i does need a little reenforceing we do not seem to get the same quality of fiberglass i can only get the matting and not the thicker fiber yours truly jack boyd
I use Gordon's Bo-Tuff fiberglass, and Smooth-On epoxy. They are both sold specific for Bow making. They are sold by bowyer suppliers. The epoxy needs to be heated to 180 degrees F for 4 hours to cure properly. I don't think I showed it on the video, but I have a home made oven that I put the entire mold into. It's around 72"x12"x24" deep and has 3- 100 watt incandescent light bulbs on top. It's insulated and has a thermometer and timer. Hope this helps. Good luck.
i asume that would be in the united kingdom and here we take to pay tax for anything in comming into this country sad but true a getting a hold of any thing is difficult the only 2 part apoxy resin i have seen comes in 1oz and that is the best we can get here in derby anyway
@@jackboyd2352 did you get anywhere with a Smooth on supplier? There's several in europe though the price varies a lot.
Tests are interesting, but completely irrelevant for hunting. I’ve hunted with all types of bows and keep falling back to the recurve or long bow... chronographing recurve/long bows almost always shoot under 200 FPS and and speed demon bows with training wheels shoot well over 300fps. At the end of the day the hunter needs to know the arc of the arrow (shot placement), and the limitations and advantages to each type of bow, my biggest stalk and harvest of my biggest black bear was taken with the first straight limbed longbow that I made in 1986. It’s a 60 pound long bow. I love all types of bows and respect people’s choices for each style, but don’t understand why people get caught up in chronographing arrows with traditional equipment
The whole point of this video was to push back on the idea that modern materials offer a significant performance gain over traditional materials. A chronograph is a tool to measure one of the ingredients of performance. Speed does matter, but not the small variation in speed measured in this test.
Travis Jorgensen and my point is if you shoot a bow that shoots 160, or a bow that shoots 195... the game won’t know the difference.
@@hondaman6918 that could be the difference of a hit or miss/bad shot on an animal that was moving or spooked