Crank 5 TIMES to Start?? Part 1: Diagnosis (VW Passat P0341)
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- čas přidán 3. 05. 2024
- This 2003 VW Passat 1.8 Turbo looks neglected, but should still have some life left in it at 150k miles. Owner says it has been sitting for a while, but wants to get it back on the road.
The problem is that it is VERY RELUCTANT to start, often taking 5 Cranking Attempts to get it to fire!!
Once it does fire up, it runs a bit rough.
One suspicious code sets every time:
P0341-Camshaft Position Circuit Range/Performance.
Does it need a new CMP sensor?
Not so fast...
Let's break out the scope and figure out why this VW is sick.
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Enjoy!
Ivan - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Working on other peoples stuff is like pealing the layers of an onion. Getting the whole story is like pulling teeth! Thanks Ivan.
OMG!
Exactly the same problem has my 2000 Corolla. (chain driven VVti, no belt)
1st long crank, no start.
2nd crank, easy start.
Then runs like new.
What are the odds?
I have no clue either.
This video will save my sanity and the car.
ooh yeah!
Cheers with beers from Greece.
👍
Those hydraulic tensioners are notorious for wearing out the guides and making that chain make noise. But I agree that the cams are out of time.
I'm so hooked on this site, that I need a fix, video, daily. I get the shakes waiting on a new video
: )
LOL just watch the 1000+ old videos :))
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I feel the same as user-z, if I scroll down your library they're all fully red across the bottom, meaning I've watched them ALL, multiple times!!!
Go through the playlists.. That's what I did... I was going through 10 videos per day at one point.. consistently.. for months. lol
You need to take out the intake camshaft to replace the seal under the phaser... they leak a lot and i use to replace these quite often...
I watch your great videos from Switzerland.
Nice, was just watching a live from Basel 1992 video of Mark Knopfler. Go Switzerland! Where my Protonmail account is based.
@@BigEightiesNewWave
You have good taste in music.
Have changed alot of timingchains on these engines when they was fairly new (worked at vw dealer)
You need to take the camshafts out. The book say to take the timing belt of. But i usaly ziptied the belt to the sprocket and just lifted the camshaft in the rear.
On the money 👍
Slugde in oil picup is also a thing on this enging with long intervall.
And sometimes the plastic shoe on the chain tensioner falls off, especially the bottom one.
Humm, the same owner of the other timing issue, rear engine seal...
Maybe the owner knows enough to be dangerous and is not having the right service info resources or marking things when he takes things apart? You can't just be close enough when doing any sort of timing belts, chains, etc. It has to be precise, especially on any ECU monitored engine. It will always throw a code. Ivan, there should be an additional charge for whenever you have to sort out other people's mess up's. I'm looking forward to part II.
How about adding on the 3rd channel of Pico the ignition signal for cylinder no 1? It is a typical setup to check for cam/crank synchronization. You can see exactly how the timing works during crank and after starting. In fact, you should first prevent the engine from starting to get a base recording then try another recording with engine started. Also don't forget about the huge waveform library from Pico.
In vcds you can check synchro. it show a high signal ping crank shaft correlation with cam shaft.
The 'been sitting for a while" nightmares. Lol. Check valves. Vacuum lines. Fuel tank. Fuel lines. Injectors. Etc etc.
Or just drive it
Call the Humble Mechanic 🔧 Just Kidding, I really enjoy your videos
This makes me appreciate the 1980 C-10 Chevy I had in here yesterday. All original. It even still had the quadrajet on it. Ran good, but had a collapsed lifter. Around here people will pay 10k for a square body that runs, no matter the shape of the truck.
I prefer it look like sh*t. It stays where I park it. Under the hood, and tire wells is what I care about.
I have one they can com and get TODAY for 10k
Sorry Ivan did I step out of line by telling the guy I have a C10 fore sale???
Great video timing is very I important if not engine won’t start also chains and tensioners can’t break or looseness of the timing chain
I’m watching too many videos like this, I’m English and I’m now calling petrol “Gas”
Gas is an abbreviation for gasoline ⛽️
😅
“Auf wiedersehen, Gas” doesn’t have the same ring, somehow
I think that is the one thing I miss about Europe. buying your gas/oil premix for chainsaws, and weed eaters. Or mopeds as they think I used it for. and of course sane drivers, although I hear that is no longer the case.
😂😂😂😂😂
Leave it up to VW to use both a timing belt and a chain!!!! If that were a Toyota, that chain in the back would be a gear. I know, they wanted to use a chain so they could have a weird VVT system like no one else....
😂 yep ... plus chains stretch and guides / plungers wear out. Vw 😬
Happy to report turned 70 last month 10 years since I had to work on a shit box vw.next on list bmw
I've got many years of experience on 1.8t forums, if I had $5 for everytime I've seen the 16 rollers issue, I'd be retired and living in the Bahamas by now. The way it's counted makes it very easy to make a mistake.
@cjrock4096I think the issue comes from which roller is 0/1 and that advance/retard mechanism
@cjrock4096you know wtf he's talking about you filthy pedantic bastard lol... There are already too many of you on the internet.. The method VW used to count the teeth is to mark (what would typically be) roller 0 as 1 which is the confusion... Nobody said anything about changing units.. Furthermore, the act of counting is more fundamental than assigned units ie: inches, mm, newtons, miles of pp your girl takes while you're at work etc...
It does not say 16 "units" or "links", it says 16 "rollers" aka chain pins or rivets, so you count the first and last pins; IOW there is no "0" or "0 to 1", it's mark on cam 1, roller pin 1, to mark on cam 2, roller pin 16.
@cjrock4096Exactly, except even mentioning links will likely confuse the issue. This is the same as bicycle chain length is measured in rollers or pins, not links; the links themselves have a pitch, which is the center to center measurement of the outside rivets or pins; the most standard being .5 inch (12.7mm).
@cjrock4096 It's unclear which roller to start counting from. When the marks are aligned, the exhaust mark is halfway between 2 rollers.
It's great seeing these older cars get back on the road! I loved meeting your next project this morning. I don't want to spoil it, but that one will be a real beauty once all the gremlins are chased out
Time for class! Sweet!
I think your right
Lots of info on the blogs on this problem it's the most common cause 👍🎓
Another interesting one Ivan.
Thanks Ivan!
Good morning from Fort Worth.
That TDI that "kicked your butt?" No, Ivan, I disagree; you just had to throw that brain in high gear and do a bit more thinking because it didn't just jump out at you. Just like you did in this video. You reasoned that the timing is off because of this or that. You had to THINK about that; that's not kicking your butt, you just had to get that grey matter bubbling. GREAT VIDEO!
Looks like someone has been meddling where they shouldn’t have. 🤣🤣
Morning PHAD!
Hi Ivan,
Great case study. I had the exact same issue working on a VW Passat where there was work done before. I think the original error was indeed the chain guide between the camshafts. Another shop install the new piston with chain guide and timed it incorrect. Then the owners didn’t had faith in that shop so it became my project😃I was aware of the 16 chainrollers, but the way I became convinst of an incorrect camshafttimi ng was the angle of both loops. In TDC they should be both, let’s say 45 degrees (of cilinder 4). The intake lope was different then the exhaust lope. After timed it correctly the problem was solved. Unfortnially the other shop replaced every part that came up with the DTC. Lambdasensor, camshaft positionsensor, variabel intakemanifolt, crankshaft sensor…..😩.
Thank you for sharing your case study!
Kind regards from Amsterdam
Only I was incorrect with my previous comment; the engine needs to be in TDC but then the powerstroke for cilinder 4….😃 (if you want to visual see the angle of both slopes)
19:30 - Ain't no 8.8 bolt I ever saw on a Volkswagen engine mechanicals...
this is one of the best looking Passat of all times. Still can't imagine how VW managed to stuff a W8 in this engine bay
I love the B5 and C5 platform Passat, A4 and A6.. The A8 D2 is close enough too :P
Great way to start a ☀️ Saturday morning ☕ 🛠️ 🚗 ▶️
Hello from Birmingham Alabama
Where you have the excuse, I was dodging a bullet, and miss counted...
Sadly my news was uninterested about accuracy in news.. Did they restore Vulcan to original with no pants, or the prude model it was when they did the restore?
Timing is out, your scope capture clearly shows the difference while cranking compared to starting. I just did a search for a known good(found one on diag net) and it is clearly off. My concern is now that maybe it might have bent valves? You did say its running rough...
Got my coffee! Let's gooooo!
There is a reason Volkswagen points out the link count. The exhaust cam is not variable so if the crankshaft timing mark is lined up, and the exhaust pulley timing mark is lined up then the exhaust rear sprocket is exactly aligned. If you set the intake cam sprocket as per the 16 rollers then it will be in time. So it either jumped time (seems unlikely)or someone messed with it and counted wrong . Some timing chain setups will jump timing if the engine is rotated backwards.
Noooo, don't make me wait for part2, i just wanna finished in one go lol
Surely the chain spacing is 15 1/2 as per the diagram at 17:00, which shows the Ex mark between teeth and the In mark at a tooth. So the gap is not 16, but 15 plus a half tooth. Also, the chain is numbered 1 to 16 but if you count the first pin as zero the pin numbered 16 is really 15th. I think the chain is one tooth out.
if i remember correctly if you have that timed up to be tdc on number one the cam lobes should be pointing away from each other on number one. so the timings 180 out
I applaud you for working on German cars, I know they are a super real pain to fix sometimes👏
German cars are just a bit different from American cars. But nothing that many other American technicians can't handle daily. And don't even make me started about the quality of American cars compared to German ones...
@@zbigniewrichard8291 American cars in general are utter shit.
Gee, I found my two beetles the easiest cars to work on ever. Well my datsun will always be #1 for clutches. But shear simplicity, the Germans had it right as long as you replaced the rear axle bolts with socket head bolts so could crank them on tight.
@@robertsmith2956 You are talking about old beetle, right? No computers, no servos, Fred Flinstone style car. Because the new beetle is a POS.
@@zbigniewrichard8291 Yep, the one that floats. Rear engine, enough steel to come out on top with a semi.
Only at 3:00 - at this time I would be tempted to check if something which is supposed to be powered in start / run wasn't losing power when in start. Bumping the key so the system is in run while the engine is turning when it starts is what would tempt me into that path.
Interesting case study my friend. Happy Derby Day. Tell Amanda my picks are Fiercness Catching Freedom Honor Marie and Just a Touch.
Will do, Bill! She's glued to the TV already haha
As far as I know, these engines have often problems with low oil pressure due to a clogged strainer on the intake snorkel in the oil pan. The oil pressure is needed to control the variable valve timing. This may also be the cause of the error in the error memory. However, this would not explain the poor starting. That's why I think you're on the right track with the 16 teeth distance.
TDC:
In older longitudinally installed VW and Audi engines, the top dead centre marking is often located on the flywheel and there is a corresponding hole in the clutch bell housing on the driver's side through which it can be checked.
Talk about total confusion!
The specs should indicate the "Roller or link" adding in about the difference seen with the tensioner up or down with an extra picture to illustrate this.
I see part two (I hope) as being an eye opener.
Another unusual problem, Ivan! Great diagnostic so far. I'm thinking shifting one roller may cure the problem, but how did it get wrong? Miscount on reassembly? On to Part 2 🙂
I've got my own problems to troubleshoot today. Almost became a smear on the highway the other day. Transmission went wonky trying to merge. It was fine immediately after but then lost the PRNDL display driving to lunch and it seemed stuck in 2nd gear. Fixed itself a few seconds later. Happened again on the way home. Scanner says P0702, P0706, and P0707. Transmission Range Sensor Circuit intermittent Fault, Transmission Range Sensor A Range/Performance, Transmission Range Sensor A Circuit Low. I can definitely confirm intermittent. With it being low, I'm guessing a short to ground somewhere. I'm guessing the other performance/range code is related to the circuit low code. Got to mow my lawn first, but then I'm clearing my plate today. I really don't want to crawl under my truck right now with shoulder problems. This might go to the local shop.
Owned a 2006 Jetta 1.9 TDI manual. Great economy, fun to drive. But it kept going wrong. Needed a reliable car for a job with a longish commute. The final straw was when it left me stranded halfway up the mountain on route 56 on the way to work in Johnstown. Sold it the very same week.
The 1.9 TDI is generally a tank of an engine. Often regarded as the best engine VW ever built :D They usually last 500k km+
@tschuuuls486 is not necessarily trouble-free miles, though. What the point of it if within that time you have to replace the turbo twice, and as I said, it still keeps going wrong? One of the times mine quit, I towed it to a mechanic who had it for a week and still couldn't figure out what was wrong.
@@robbflynn4325 Well, they are super common in Europe, so basically every mechanic knows how to fix them. And maybe you got a bad aftermarket turbo or it had a leak in one of the charge lines and it over spooled the turbo?
@tschuuuls486 Yeah, that is part of it. I just stick to Toyota now. They are boring, uninspiring, bland, but my word, they are so reliable.
There are definitely some steep inclines around Johnstown!
Ignition cable by the key
I bet what happened is the water pump seized and destroyed the timing belt! Which bent every valve in the head! When you put everything back together the valve has to be extended all the way to set the timing of the cams if not extended all the way you will be 1 tooth off
I pull the plug and drop the coil back on. On compression stroke the coil will pop up. Then bring up to top.
The missing valve cover bolt in the back lets the cover raise enough for chain to jump. 🤩
My money is customer says nope, the engine had never been touched, that is original timing chain any missing bolts is from vibration. LOL
On the factory drawing the arrow,notch and roller look aligned on both camshafts. On that car i t looks like the the sprocket of the intake cam is aligned with the gap in the chain rather than the roller. But wouldn't that make it 1/2 a tooth out? Could the sprocket be loose? Weird
Yep seen this many times. If you fired a cam sensor at it, you'd be right half the time. Otherwise it's almost always timing.
Those tensioners are high wear items the chains are ok usually
Might be the oil solenoid is faulty and allowed the chain to jump a tooth by not tensioning correctly. Remove the solenoid and check the screen for debris and test electrically.
VW over 100k with plastic still intact?! What a rare one 😂
I kind of wondered if the picoscope showed you timing sync at 11:16, the high crank blip with the cam fall notch
Some law school classes all ways ask questions you already know the correct answer to .
Like a beautiful woman with a "spookytooth" she's just one off from being perfect.
I did the timing set on mine and it started having these problems I’ll stick to old school stuff lol There’s a chain on the backside that connects the two cams it has an oil tensioner on it
Somebody been meddling in something they ought not be meddling in! Eric O
Cool, just finished up yesterday with a 08 ! Luckily it was a much easier lean/ random misfire issue. Misfire only at idle which was obviously vac. leak(s) . Couple on loose intake connections but the main culprit was the diaphragm in the crankcase valve. You can pop it off and get just the kit from OhhhRiellys for 40$. 👍👍🇺🇸
The old saying the most expensive German car is a used German car . A guy asked Charles on comments once , his daughter needed a car he was looking at a VW and a Toyota , Charles said buy the Toyota .
ran into this problem myself on an audi tt. Same engine and some mechanics try to save money by retarding one tooth as the chain stretches. putting it back to 16 rollers it would not start. New chain and tensioner ...starts first time. They stretch between 0.5 to 1mm. Crazy!
You sure do get some weird cars Ivan. But you sure can fix them !
You seen the timing ring/wheel turn on Nissan VQ37 when low on oil and over heats????
Wow, that's weird diagnosis in the advanced position while the teeth is off. I was confused how you determine when the wheel is off. I guess I'll have to watch part 2 lol.
Would it cause a crank no start then to a short crank then crank start fairly consistently? Can you count links in different situations?
Could it be that because the timing is off the car won't start until the oil pressure comes up to run the phaser?
This is like déjà vu 😂 I’m THAT guy you should have made this video 18 months ago. Had the cam out… used Amazon parts… didn’t know what I was doing… yes and no.
I had it worse. AFTER I did the valve adjustment on a new bike, I found a 6 year old video on it, and not taking the crank cover off and messing with that gasket. Put in 1st, and spin the wheel to turn engine. Just use the cam timing marks for alignment.
The tops of camshaft sensor pulses have notches in the middle. Can they confuse the engine computer?
Does that engine have a filter screen for the oil line to the cam????
Sometimes the keyway for the cam shears off.
Cool.
I actually bought a 08 audi a4 last Sunday, I would normally dodge euro just based on track diagrams. It's a salvage car that just needs a headlight, a bumper cover and a hood. Has some oil leaks and needs some exhuast work but its super clean for around here. I got it cheap cos they couldn't get the hood open.
They're so reliable, you never need to open the hood!.....lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics that's hilarious 😂
P3081 ECU check problem with temp sensor it means another P1111 Lambda Low.
Looks like witness marks on that cam cap bolt?
There was that moment of suspense when I thought "uh oh! Time to call Charles!"
Dan
@@calholli Yeah, Dan too! But Charles has the advantage of being four states away as opposed to having to come over from Holland. No disrespect to Dan!
Would not comparing the scope at the long crank versus starting versus running had told you that the timing was off? Yes, 1/16 variance of the correct position might be a little difficult to discern, but it would have given you a feeling for if it was off.
These have timing belt issues. I always replaced the timing belt after around 100,000 miles for sure. Had a friend with a beetle 1.8t just stall out on him and went to check it out and it sounded like the classic no compression and peeled back the timing belt cover and found it just shredded in there. I'm sure it bent valves since he coasted it in gear trying to give it gas and then tried cranking it over. His uncle showed up and said it needed an alternator. He just got another engine put in. Our 1.8t Jetta had the same issue. Was cruising on the highway and went to pass someone and the engine started loosing power and then just stalled out on the freeway. Took a couple of plugs out and found they were just smashed to hell. Pulled back the timing cover and found the belt had shredded. It only had around 120k on it.
Belt interval is 60,000miles or every 5 years.
I've gotta know bc of your disdain for butt connectors. How do you feel about these new solder-seal connectors?
Can anyone help?i have a P0014 on a 2GR-fe engine after i changed all four cams ..i have also changed camshaft solenoid and camshaft position sensor but code still comes up
Wish you lived closer. We have a Titan no start, just cranks. Far as I can tell, no spark or fuel. We changed the ECM, and the fuse panel near that. We still can’t access the key programming. U1000 codes. When cranking we loose battery juice fairly fast. Presently, the antitheft is on, due to changing the ECM. Not exactly sure where to go from here. No wiring diagram. So…
Check out Ross-Tech VCDS
Be mindful of the age of the gasoline.
I had the exact same car year , miles, symptoms. Sold it let the kid drive home 100 miles on my plate got a call a couple days later from the police he hit and ran a HOUSE ! And the plate came back to me. No more Mr nice guy
I had a drunk roll a car in my driveway. Had 6 different plates in the trunk, and one on the back that also didn't match car. I had an older model of same car, and sadly the parts were not compatible or I would have kept the car for parts. So I told cops to tow it away.
They tend to get oil in the connector. Haven't watched the entire video but that's my first guess.
I thought I saw on Alldata that the timing is not done at TDC?
peugeot has the same design a chain to drive intake on their 1500 diesels and that's where they fail. PSA finally found the cause! 5w30 oil instead of 0w30
Where has the aux belt gone?
Check the phaser solenoid. Most time it’s
When voltage measurements were taken on the harness side with the cam sensor disconnected, the cam signal back to the ECM read over 12V? How do you explain that? With the plug disconnected, I’d expect a 0 volt signal back to the ecm. 🤔
Pull-down circuit, ECM sends out 12V to CMP :)
Ivan, where do you get your stackable banana plugs? I'm looking for some good quality ones.
Half Ivans tools are harbor freight. LOL
I ordered a set from china on ebay. Never saw any with gold contacts. But didn't look on aliexpress or banggood. Just grabbed them with my bulb sockets, and bulbs.
PHAD AMAZON STORE! 😊
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Thanks
The key word is 'between'..
Been there, drove me nuts...
Feel sorry for anyone who bought this over the 2.5L model. So much better as far as the long term goes
What? No detailed analysis of the crank vs cam waveforms? Hmmm, I was expecting that Ivan. Perhaps the intake cam is off a tooth, but the scope should help you know for sure if you have the correct waveforms to compare it to.
We'll get the "correct" waveform after the repairs in Part 2, then we can compare ;)
Yay!
Good luck you’re going to need it on this one.
I know on my TDI VW’s from the early 2000’s, if they didn’t crank fast enough, a similar situation would occur. Evidently a certain RPM would be needed for the car to start. Could be related?
I think the issue will be a diesel pressure sensor
👍
This model passat had a huge load of problems in the days.
Those cam timing marks are NOT going to line up to the arrows when in time or have 16 rollers between them. It appears you’re need to roll the cam 1 tooth.
I have always had a correlation code when the cam timing was off though.
I don't think the variable timing solenoid is all the way up, if that is the case it would pull the extra slack and make them line up again
@@dwindeyer the bentley manual even shows the intake cam notch forward of the arrow. 16 rollers is the spread even if it doesn’t look right, its right.
@@dwindeyer those tensioners have a shoe on top and bottom, it never slacks the cam chain unless you thread the hold down in to squeeze the mechanism together.
That tool will make it easier to retime that intake cam.
I can see why they got it wrong.. Because it starts the 16 count from the LEFT side of the first tooth... That's very strange. I wonder why they did it that way??
Can. Be. Tricky. To. Diaicnos. Timing. Thanks ❤❤❤❤
"This shouldn't take too long" 3:30... ~25 min video, which is part 1...
Does anyone know of any other CZcams channel similar to this one that is worth following? I think Ivan is a fantastic diagnostic mechanic, and I learn from him, but he has this little problem of only being one man, and I am addicted to his content, and would love something else to give me an extra fix between his videos!
Advanced Level Diagnostics is a mobile mechanic with lots of episodes. He rolls into a job and quickly starts diagnosing. Just real world fixing with a lot of crank no starts and similar. The episodes are typically short and it's all about the problem not him.
@advancedleveldiagnostics
DiagnoseDan, is another good one.
Brilliant suggestions, any more?