DT Swiss DEG brings us 4° hub engagement
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- čas přidán 17. 04. 2024
- We strip down and get in to the new DT Swiss DEG 240 hub. They bing us 4° of engagement with 90 points of Engagement with every tooth of the ratchet engaged. The new larger diameter ratchet slips over the bearing meaning no more lock ring to remove to access the main drive side bearing.
We compare the hubs to operation of the 240 EXP hub, the legendary 350, Industry Nine and Chris King.
The DT Swiss DEG hub launched on 18th April 2024
@dtswiss #DTSwissDEG - Sport
thanks for showing the new hub but more importantly, contextualising it against the options
Massive point to remember here, The bearings in the Hub shell are further apart now (mechanically stronger) and the freebody bearings also, so the load on the axle is better (stiffer) lower bearing load from the axle. Secondly, the larger diameter of the newer rachets allows for smaller teeth (small degree of engagement) but it would run more positively (many more teeth on the system means it's engagement will be more positive.
You left out the part where more teeth = less durability.
@@kazuviking remember the overall size of the ring has increased and the surface area per teeth is small yes, but, there are way more now so the overall contact area is larger so wear and tear will not be am issue.
hahahahaha You have no idea what you're talking about... you have google, look for dt swiss history with star ratchet with more than 18 teeth. According to your logic, 36 and 54 teeth should be more durable...but they are not...not even close...the more teeth, the greater the chances that they will not engage properly and then they will rub against each other.
Thank you, very helpful!
Great video! Very interesting 👍
🙏
I’m excited for this! I’m a huge DT fanboy (though didn’t love the EXP). I look forward to building up a pair of these into Enves
I agree, the unior hub genies are a fabulous bit of kit 👌
I have Shimano 583 instant engagement silent clutch rear hubs , new old stock . I have had them spare for 24 years . Formula have had a fast engagement hub as well with six pawls. The trade off is durability as one pawl takes load instead of two or more at a given point of rotation .
Superb presentation. This looks promising. I will definitely conciser this hub.
🙏
While I'm happy about the bigger ratchet rings not covering the bearings during replacement/service, I am a bit paranoid with the tiny little teeth. The other system where there are two one-sided ratchet rings and one double-sided ring that alternately engages between them seems like a more robust construction and approach.
I was thinking the larger diameter ring provided more surface area for the teeth to engage. That was the limiting factor with the older smaller ratchet rings. The 54t had a tendency to slip under powerful riders.
Rather than more point of engagement, i would like them to make more silent version. Not necessarily soundless, not "angry hornet like" would be fine
Yeah, me to. I am curious how this will sound, normal 350 with 50 tooth makes noise like hell and this have 90 tooth.
You can silence any hub with the correct grease/amount of grease. And no it won't ruin your hub.
@@becyk_du_quebecAgreed. I use RSP hub grease on my DT and Hope hubs. They are quieter than road bike tyre noise.
The ln series dt swiss use paws and are nearly silent.
This. I cant stand the „ngungungungungu“ on downhills
People complaining about the noise of high engagement hubs, run them with thicker grease. Would be nice for Paul to do a small comparison between the different thicknesses of an appropriate grease and sound difference. I run my hub on the thinnest machine oil, so it sounds like 4 riders of the Apocalypse and helicopter scene from Apocalypse Now combined.
😅😅😅
Haha, I could just imagine you riding down the trail and everyone running away from the direction the sound is coming from.
I had a friend who has a very high end (unknown to him) hub on his bicycle that was a an entire orchestra. Pulled it apart to check bearings, clean and regrease, applied a good dab of somewhat thick grease onto the palls and no longer do i hear the sound of thundering hooves behind me as we freewheel down a hill.
The horror! The horror!
Bad advice. Thick grease can cause slippage and irreversible wear to dt star ratchets.
Plus one for the Hub Genie, what a tool.
As someone who just had to replace the rear hub bearings, I'm so happy that DT Swiss solved the original bad engineering design!
4:08 On hope Pro 4 when bearings got worn out it the freehub would bind, so when axle was tight it did not work, and to diagnose it you loosen axle if it works then the bearings are done. So I think if you stop riding when this happens it will be fine, but I think people might continue to ride, thus damaging the axle.
I run the 60t aftermarket ratchets, that was before today. As a parking lot trials dedicated athlete take my money DT 😂
Next iteration is going to copy Extralite's ratchet and everyone is going to be reacting like, Wow DT Swiss is sooo innovative! much improvement. wow.
Very informative video, would have liked to seen some weights though.
Its a few grams heavier
damn i am fine with 54 but the maintenance aspect is sweet.
A rear Chris King hub is 600 dollars. That's why you don't see those often.
Great improvement, bearing replacement/maintenance seems not to require the dedicated "ratchet removal" tool anymore.
Concern I've with the ratchet systems is the friction the ratchet produced while freewheeling. Typically in Crit races with a lot of cornering and/or downhill you lose a more speed as with a ratchet system compared to the traditional pawl system. (Depends on the Contact surface)
The new 3 degree ratchet, although bigger in diameter, seems to have about the same contact surface as the old ratchet as the teeth of the ratchet (Outer -/- inner diameter) seems the same. --> Maybe the old 350 ratchet could be improve through reaming the inner diameter of the ratchet to the teeth legth of the new one (Reducing contact surface)
Yes. There is more drag, which is why it is for MTB only 6 bolt. Roadies just don’t need this, favouring lower weight and resistance instead
Wow I was just about to get the Spank J Hex for my MTB… looks like DT Swiss was reading my mind. Actually have you done a review for the Spank J Hex hub? It’s supposed to be really good and amazing engagement
Also is it available in straight-pull? I couldn’t find it for straight pull, on J hook.
Not on YT, but Jake had some for a bit. He went back to a modified Hope, and later Halo hubs. This is Jake Atkinson, slope style rider and trials.
@@Mapdec I imagine you wouldn’t consider Spank a high end hub like you said i9 hydra and Onxy are?
Also love all your videos. Have you done any wheel building ones? I’m in the process of getting everything to build my first set of wheels and I feel like your videos are super informative! Cheers!
i wonder how large they would have to make the hub to get down to 1 degree.
Is it possible for you to send me the details for the tool that removes the rachet ring on the dt swiss.
I have the original for the pawl one and vice etc. But the impact drier unit would be much easier in my home workshop.
My only suggestion on the video would be more close up shots but always factual interesting and informative 👍 😊 cheers 🍻
Elevation Wheel Company. I think BSC tools make one too now.
Just wanted everyone to know I fixed a noise issue on my carbon full suspension bike by tightening the linkage fittings.. thought it was the pressfit BB but it wasnt... the hubs look very nice by the way.
Nice one Zane.
I think DT are getting desperate. The patent expired, and now the Far Eastern brands are basically making interchangeable hubs. It's like IBM PC and the far cheaper clones.
Desperation is probably a strong word for development and evolution. Is commerce, you gotta be first, better or cheaper.
@@Mapdec We'll see how this pans out!
If they maintain the quality I think they'll be fine. I might be wrong, but I think most people buy DT Swiss for the reliability of the hubs and alu rims.
@@Hambini exactly what I was thinking. On top of the fact that their clones are sometimes even made to a higher spec than DT themselves, as you've shown in your videos
@@TheSpaceBrosShowgood luck pinpointing those for yourself and the masses.
Nice hubs certainly I don't think it will make me dump my industry nine hubs they are perfect
Roadhouse! Pedal kickback increases with increased engagement. I will stick to Hope Pro 4, thank you very much! Or any other DT Swiss hub. Give it a few years and the idler wheel fad is over. And back to slow engagement hubs. It's the ciiircle of life!
I mentioned that irony. DT Swiss have been pushing the virtues of less engagement to reduce kickback for years. Consumer demand is for instant engagement though. Weird. I’m going to be testing these on a yeti arc though.
@@Mapdec I have to admit that on my old Banshee Paradox V3 2020, I noticed the slow engagement on climbs, and I almost went for the Hydra, but the plan was always to weld my dream bike - an 18kg steel behemoth with full 29ers, 60 HTA, 81.5 STA, using Fox 49, EXT Arma, 200/200mm travel, and the 240mm Oneup V3 dropper. Climbing the steepest hills was much easier with the steep STA. If I get tired I added in-frame lockout - 10 sec and its a hardtail. Okay, I still want a Hydra. If only there was a hub with a climb switch. Fast engagement for climbs, slow for downhill.
I wonder if they could have used an IGUS washer instead of a metal washer.
How about showing the insides of the king system - because the helix is not the ring drive…
I'd be interested in a link to the tool you use to remove the ring to change bearings on the 350 hub. Be much easier than trying to rotate the wheel on the otiginal tool in a brnch vice
Elevation Wheel Company. Or BSC tools
4:20 the other designs also have that thin shim…
I love my Acros hubs for all the same reasons as you mention about DT-Swiss, except I found Acros to be more reasonably priced, and they're manufactured in Germany.
The new DT DEG’s solve some issues, but come at a higher weight. A 240 DEG rear hub is 40 grams more than a comparable 240 EXP, which is quite a lot.
Looking forward to a "blind" test of the difference 😅
A lot? You're joking right? Plus that's nothing compared to the advantage it gives.
@@LuciTulcea Believe it or not, some people care about the accumulation of grams across a bike. It all adds up. Your priorities may be different. Congratulations.
Who needs it? Have the "old" DT Swiss hubs and never noticed even the slightest delay in engagement. Beginning to sound like 1970's cars building; our new model has 6 cylinders, 8!, 12! 16! Good reason that most modern cars have 4 or 6 cylinders (if any). Understand their frustration at the patent running out - but this is not a meaningful improvement.
Maybe just for the most skilled technical riders
It was a bit underwhelming when the 240s came out. I ended up buying the 350 instead. These deg hubs are interesting.
is this what nukeproof used for their HZN wheels?
🤷♂️ unlikely, but I haven’t seen them.
I am very curious to understand how suspension pivot design improvements are driving a need for higher engagement. Engagement is a personal choice by user and their needs. Obviously i recognize that the issue with high engagement causing kick-back and similar unwanted effect is lessened when the pivot designs improve, but it hardly drives the need.
Umm. I think the demand for high engagement has always been there and has grown as skill and technicality of courses has risen. That demand has probably been held back because some suspension designs suffer kickback.
@@Mapdecyes I agree that there has been demand from riders to have more engagement. I would flip the statement around, so that since riders want more and quicker engagement, there has been a need for suspension designs to improve.
@@Mapdecthe Ochain makes it possible to run faster pickup hubs without paying a big price in pedal kick.
That said, anything above 54 poe feels nice on the parking lot or when doing trialsy manoeuvres but for normal mtb use they offer no noticeable performance benefits.
So they went back to 2 springs because the exp system is indeed inferior? How thick is that bit around the bearing on the drive side. It looks really thin to carry that load.
This is for MTB only. Hence 6 bolt. Exp for road.
@@Mapdec I dont think I understand what you're saying. The current mtb versions of the 240 have EXP.
@@stormeporm yes. They only just launched DEG. Exp will still exist along DEG. Exp will be for lightweight. Road, Gravel and XC. DEG is heavier and the POE only really needed for technical MTB, hence 6 bolt and heavier.
@@Mapdec Thanks for the explanation. Its the first time I''ve heard exp is for light mtb use and weird they even spec them on their enduro wheel sets.
@@stormeporm they have literally just launched DEG, give it time.
Very interesting how they will survive in a mtb world, because rathet with more than 36t consider as unreliable when you do a lot uphills
I bet I could strip those ratchet rings pretty quick on my ebike
Interesting one actually. I wish I had me tied it now. These 90 point of engagement are engaged at the same time. Compared to a hope hub that has a 54 tooth ring and 6 pawls of which only 3 are engaged with the ring the actually surface area must be quite a bit more. This is an interesting line to investigate more.
I would love these manufacturers if they included a silenr version of their freehub too.
Add thicker grease and it is silent
@@JulianKent Don´t forget to wash out the thicker grease and add thinner grease if the weather turns cold.... Rgr
Onyx hubs
@@Mapdec they sound pretty good to me :)
What's the quality of these Onyx hubs like? I have never heard about them until you mentioned it
@@tomadevil1Very high quality. Completely silent. Instant engagement. Drawbacks are weight and some people find the engagement spongy. I don’t mind it.
Will there be a road version?
Why? I can't think of any reason why a road bike would need 4 degree engagement, especially not with the extra weight. More engagement = less durable, and more drag.
Highly unlikely. Road bikes tend to favor lower rolling resistance and lower weight.
Is the bearings the same size?
Same as what?
@@Mapdec same as the original 240
About time these hubs got an update. The mtb and ebike hubs were quite easy to strip the female internal spline in the hub body (seen lots of eebs with stripped dt splines). By increasing the radius of the ratchet the forces on that spline are about 50%. I bet that’s why they did this update. Not the points of engagement.
It’s a good question? What do you think of the overall surface area of the 90 tooth engagement?
@@Mapdec i guess theyve sorted the early EXP problems out by now! Should be fine unless people put really thick grease in to make them quieter, could cause slippage?
Do you need the new DEG hub or you can upgrade an existing dt-swiss ratchet to the new DEG?
You can’t upgrade. Its a very different hub shell
Hot take: higher points of engagement doesn't matter. At all. The real benefit here is bearing access.
No straightpull?
Not yet. I haven’t been told if any plans, but I am sure if there is enough demand it will happen
Industry Nine Solix: 0.59 degree engagement
My Ex-Wife was a significant Ratchet as well 😅
My only gripe with my dtswiss hubs is that the flange teared off after 30 000 Kms.
I’ve seen that happen with most brands. Add enough corrosion and tension.
Had several DT Cerit hubs which I (un)ironically called "tear-it"
I’ve seen far more Chris King hub flange failures than DT… In fact I’ve personally had two Kings crack.
Somewhat tells me that the ratchet exp "evolution" is actually the crap I was calling it all the time.
Yeah. It really didn’t offer much apart from a tiny weight saving
4degree is 90 POE
DT is getting real desperate after that patent expired
I think it’s called innovation.
5:20 always get original dt Swiss original bearings. Or be smarter and buy twice in the end… the tolerances are engineered as a system. Enduro bearings have noticeable drag in dt Swiss hubs
Comparable with i9, really? 4 degrees translates to mere 90 POE. I believe they made it solely to replicate the feel on the cranks of 72 POE hubs that became common among other manufacturers, but with a gravel cassette. Those who want instant pickup are already deep in 120+POE
Comparing the method rather than the numbers really.
@@Mapdec well, the method as you showed here is quite unique though. Actually haven't seen a ratchet ring around a bearing yet
Another cup of petroleum on the hype cycle fire.
Can you point out where the hype part is in this video and I will take it out.
they gave up on that exp design quick 😂
It’s still on road hubs
@@Mapdec bought an fr1500 rear wheel with it recently, hope it doesn't die on me 😂
it sounds terrible when it is coasting, the older I get the quieter bike I want.
Only disappointment with the new design, it's only in 6 bolt at the moment, no center lock 😞
It’s defo a MTB thing. Too much drag and weight for road.
@@Mapdec Agreed, I just prefer CL on anything.
Why would I want this over let’s say an onyx race hub that has no play?
This is about half the price.
The backlash problem has always been just marketing bollocks. The hub has nothing to do with it.
It affects a very small minority of riders for sure.
@@Mapdec it does affect me and everyone else when dropping at low speed to flat, but the amount of engagement the hub has, has nothing to do with this.
Make hubs quiet. This 10000point engagement is completely unnecessary...
You are in the minority in this. I personally live both high engagement and the sound. That's not to say I'm right and you are wrong, but brands like Onyx and NOBL make hubs that are either whisper or completely quiet that have excellent engagement. And people love them. Personally my choice to upgrade would NOT be the sound, it is the engagement. It just feels good, and I have even had customers come is who buy cheaper bikes like the Trek FX 3, who buy the Bontrager Paradigm comp 25, which has Bontragers 108 rapid drive system. It's a great little system that is reliable, and somewhat cheap compared to I9. And he brought his stock wheel in to me and said he hates that dead space, that extra movement. So keep in mind what you like isn't what everyone else likes. Remember that your opinion isn't what's right for everyone. I carry brands like Pedros and jagwire, which I use and ride, but some people only need brands like Bikehand or Clark's. So what I use, isn't what everyone else wants or needs. But I also race at a pro level, and those other products won't stand up to what I put them through. Keep that in mind when you comment.
I think the vast number of consumers don't even live near mountains. I see people riding full suspension trail bikes on trails I could do on my rim brake gravel bike.