Bicycle hubs - A complete re-design.
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
- Again, thanks to Veloforte, my favourite natural and delicious fuel supplier:
PeakT-20 is the code @ tidd.ly/45uc9Db
More about the tech here and thank you to KOM for giving me the opportunity to explain their tech!
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Other links of interest:
Control tyre (GP5000) - tidd.ly/3GEF512
Powermeter (Assioma) - tidd.ly/3Z98OXb
Reference powermeter (quarq) - tidd.ly/3WJx9Bn
Head unit:
amzn.to/3C5xMwQ - UK link
amzn.to/3G3sEKM - US link
105 Rim brake holy grail groupset bargain - tidd.ly/3BNlkSb - Věda a technologie
Your presentation here is absolutely top-shelf. Graphic illustrations, animations, and detailed commentary combine to make this informative and entertaining. Bravo!
Cheers mate!
make it quiet and I will think about it
This hub design is genius. Crazy that it’s taken this long to come up with
existed 20 years ago, Corima did the same design here and they had quite some issues (I believe bearing life was an issue with fairly thin bearings between the outer axle and the shell)
Bearings in series adds drag the load path going thru twice as many bearings isn't good in that regard. The two bearings for the freehub body in a normal hub are only spinning and adding drag while coasting, not while pedalling. Additionally, thin high diamater bearings (as we've seen in some horrid BB designs) tend to be worse for drag and life. Very cool concept for esp downhill and myabe enduro but for anything from XC to Road I think a traditional hub will serve better
The complexity and issues are hidden on this one. How do you assemble the two piece "freehub shell" together in a way that is easily disassembled (for bearing replacement), but also can support the loads at that point without developing any creaking? The traditional hub design has a far less complex assembly and tolerance stack.
@@Leo-ss2gb See 11:28 - only 2 bearings spin at a time. To make all 4 spin at the same time, you'd have to pedal backwards, or pedal slower than the pawl engagement speed.
@@cipo36an203 PT said it's loaded with patents, so the Corima design shouldn't be quite the same. If it's 20 years old, others would be able to copy it, I guess. Since they haven't, there are likely problems with cost or others, or the benefits aren't that great.
Probably the best video I've ever seen on hub design broadly, with bonus truth bombs re: frame tube realities thrown in for good measure. Cool solve to the bearing placement problem by KOM, kudos!
Cheers pal high praise indeed
When Shimano introduced the freehub concept back in the early 90's (I think), the idea was to move the hub bearings as wide apart as possible. Prior to that we had screw-on freewheels that are actually not too far removed from modern rear hub designs. It always struck me that modern hubs that have the bearings within the hub shell are a step back to those screw-on days
It's a shame they devalueated their own system by making dodgy thread inserts, but the old Ultegra and Deore XT hubs where very solid indeed!
Yes! I was just going to comment about this!!! This was indeed the design concept with Shimano freehubs and the older Deore LX, XT, and XTR (and their road equivalents) were all extremely solid and reliable. Sadly it appears that the newest versions of these hubs have gone backwards in time, reverting to a design where the primary load carrying bearings have been moved closer to the center of the hub as in the old freewheel days. 😢
Throughout this video I keep thinking of Shimano’s FH design and how it would compare against sealed bearing FHs in terms of axle flex etc. I am dismayed to learn from the other comments that they have undermined this in newer designs. I’ve been happily out of the game for a while and blissfully ignorant riding my older, solid Shimano stuff. 😕
indeed, the basic cup and cone hubs with the old style freehub, used in most bikes (think of ALL the commuters, ALL the city bikes, all the entry level stuff, all of the older bikes), are far more reliable and durable than the "new" sealed bearing hubs that are used in higher end bikes, both MTBs and road bikes. Sure you don't have to deal with repacking the bearings anymore, which is a time consuming job for a bike shop, but I was surprised by the kind of damage that can appear on the models that are supposed to be high end.
The design presented in the video looks very promising. Too bad for the patent.
And that (along with the fact that I'm a cheap*ss) is why I rock it! #cupandcone4lyfe
@@valentinomanontroppo4675
Technically this looks good, but like all of these things, technical prowess doesn't mean commercial success. I am no MTB rider but a non standard brake disc will probably put a few people off and the $1000USD price tag.
I agree. I wouldn't mind proprietary rotors. But the price just doesn't make sense. For less than half you can buy dt 240s. Which maybe is inferior design but it works. It works so well that in my 3 MTBs (XC, enduro and enduro emtb) I am replacing frames, suspension, rims, tires but never hubs. They just work. I replaced bearings ones. ONLY to see if I can do the procedure with my tooling. The bearings were fine.
So if DTs most expensive hub cost less than half and it works I cannot see any competition here.
@@sztigirigiDT’s most expensive hub is the 180 :) But otherwise I agree with the rest of your comment!
People getting hung up on the rotor design is a pity, imo. What is wrong with the disc being a part of the elegant design? Its a good example of clever packaging and a modular system. What is it about (most) crappy 6 bolt that people covet so much 😂. These are decent rotors, material hardness and lapping flatness is very good. Price is high and would be a blocker for me, but im sure it could come down in time if it takes off.
@@PeakTorque is it more the cost though that people object to. It's an elegant design but it cost a lot currently. Hopefully with economics of scalability, it'll come down in price
So many moving members or parts, means expensive to maintain,
So glad you mentioned I9 single pawl engagement. Mine died at mile 700 of tour divide, threw it out when I got home. This design looks great, thanks for breaking it down.
I didnt want to throw too much shit in the video, but fuck me, what a company. The gilette of hubs. Selling axles and dreams, not working hubs.
@@PeakTorque rainbow spokes 💸
I'm happy to see these hubs start getting the attention they deserve! Awesome job guys!
As soon as I saw the freewheel on the other side I thought "Of course, that makes so much more sense". Once you have that idea the advantages just keep falling into place.
Me too, I love those ‘Aha’ moments! Can’t unsee that, I’m sold on the concept!
any idea why still use a ratchet in stead of a one way roller clutch? then you can replace the 2 bearings on the freehub and loose the ratchet.
Dude - I love this stuff. I'm no Engineer, but I'm keen to always learn. This was both a learning moment and entertaining.
Excellent,started to really take notice when you mention bearing position in relation to shaft and support..Superb video.
I am not very much into bikes and never looked deep into hubs, but this video was grabbing my full attention from start to finish. The engineering aspects of this, your explanations, your thoughts on it, all very well explained. Amazing!
It may be out of most of our wheel house's, but for those that ride Trikes, or Velomobiles where there is only upright wheel to road load, this is a game changer. The forces of an non leaning wheel in a heavier machine on a hub is higher. Finnaly we get to see the bike industry Re-Inventing the wheel in a good way, not just different paint on frames year to year. Awesome ! Keep the vids coming.
good point!
You unintentionally raise a good point: Dishing, and how that relates to a newer geometry like this hub. Dishing has always been a necessary compromise with external gearing.
Your explanation and CAD images are excellent. This is an intriguing design. I would love to see the sprag clutch mechanism from an Onyx hub somehow adapted to this design, I love my silent hub!! Great video, thank you.
Agreed. I believe a hurdle for sprag is the rollers can’t handle the load when small enough to be packed into a freehub, but in this design you have a larger diameter to work with so more ramps/rollers can be utilized.
Came here to say this.
KOM says they have a sprag in testing.
The only downside is that the sprag is heavy. It's the weight of another couple bearings, without being a bearing, so you still need those too. And bigger stronger sprag means more weight, in my mind anyway. I'm just a machinist...But having said that, I'd run it
Just saying all this, I came to the realization of what (another) apex of hub/bike design is. I might have some work to do!
@@chrisgeistlinger2098 meh, I think people care too much about weight...
Yes! The inboard rt side bearing is something I pointed out in one of Hambini's video comment strings last year where he addresses a hub design. I'm old school, (still doing up to 100km day treks at age 74, factors like weather and trail pertaining) and used to freewheels, which have displayed exactly this weakness for over half a century, to the point of even at my age, finding the need to reduce the freewheel cog count to reduce axle length so as not to bend them so easily (in some cases having actually fractured them completely) and here was one of Hambini's excellent pictorials, and I was aghast that freehubs not only have the same weakness, but even more cantilevered by stress. Many commenters failed to notice the point! As Peak points out, the freehub *floats* on the unsupported side of the axle. My God...this is the progress that I'm supposed to embrace as being 'superior'?
What the axle design in this vid offers me is a way to embrace a better way to build up a rear wheel. My God, I might even spread my 126mm dropout width on my fifty year old Reynolds 531 frame to accommodate one!
Of all the 'life changing blah blah blah' of late for cycling, this is truly one.
"need to reduce the freewheel cog count to reduce axle length so as not to bend them so easily"
I put out over 1kW+ regularly and am yet to experience any of this on 11/12 speed road setups. Are you riding knock off wheels with hubs made out chewing gum by any chance?
@@channul4887 No. I suggest you read more carefully. I'm riding "old school". The original hubs were Miche, and with a Maillard Super 7 freewheel. I bent a number of axles, broke one. The bike was a "Renovated by Argos" Racing machine I bought used and abused in Taunton some twenty years ago. I then did a total rebuild of the wheels, with Mavic A319 rims and Specialized hubs. These were the first sealed bearing hubs Specialized sold. They were made for Specialized by a company that also produced for Suntour, (Sansin) quality equivalent to Shimano at the time...which is probably before you were born, going by your attitude and inability to read accurately.
I was still bending axles (yes, I was a brute for a number of decades doing distance) and reduced the freewheel body effective width (A Maillard Super 7, sometimes referred to as 'Super 700 Compact'...look it up!) to accept 6 cogs instead of seven, the seventh being an over-reach of the hub body threading that in doing so, required a longer axle. These were the days when one could actually buy and build their own cogs for their cluster. Imagine that.
With a high-quality axle, and shorter length, the problem was virtually eliminated. The point being that levered forces increase *geometrically* (with few exceptions) when arithmetic increments are increased/decreased.
I still had/have the same overall ratio (the mech reach and spooling being the limit) but triplized the front mech to widen available overall drive ratio.
And I still do 100km treks in my seventies. No silly outfits or attitudes needed. Wheel rims were Mavic A319s, btw. Excellent choice if I say so myself. I realized the wider rims add a tad of weight, but cater to a wider tire, years before the 'craze' caught on. But hey, when you don't wear a silly outfit, it never goes out of style.
My point stands. This hub Torque features is a huge jump in mechanics.
Btw! I built up both a Maillard and an Atom (same family, depending on era) seven speed hubs @13-28, and running them using a short cage mech (wore out two, my Suntour however, outlasts them all) but the cogs wore on both, which I still have in my parts bin, and the replacement cogs which I have, Maillard used to market them, are unfortunately of a different tooth shape and design, and don't shift like the originals, even with chain width adjusted, indexed or non-indexed shifting. C'est la vie...
Btw: For all you honchos out there: Ever wonder why cyclists need a gazillion number of ratios when motorbikes and cars usually max at six? Cue the torque curve discussion...and the needed multicolour outfits...
No need to spread dropouts if you've got rim brakes, just use a shorter hub end cap
@@janeblogs324 Errr...sure. You mean "axle end caps" and they're not used on classic steel frames.
And even if they did, I stated drop-out width as 126mm, that then migrated to 130mm next step if one added a wider freewheel Where's it at now? I lost track at 135 and then the dishing spacing, yada, yada, yada.
I'm talking a Classic Reynolds 531 steel frame from the Eighties. They were great bikes, You should look at a picture of one.
Thanks for going into so much detail on the bending of shafts. I’ll put that to practical use tonight
Really awesome content, this is the kind of innovation that the industry needs and just percentages claims in the ads
I have built all my latest wheelsets over the last few years using the ONYX Vesper Hubs. I love that instant engagement and the silence is a bonus. The Sprag Clutch is the most amazing bit of tech in a bicycle hub IMO.
Silence is golden.
There is nothing “amazing” or “tech” about sprag clutches. It’s been a thing for a long long time.
@@DeepSouthBuilder I know, but it's is still great IMO. I don't care what you have to say.
as a big guy i swear by the onyx classic hubs! the silence is mostly great , except that one time i startled a bunch of wild boars in the trails , because they could'nt hear me coming
@charlesmansplaining If MTB means to you only uphill performance then onyx is the right thing but anyone who is riding Enduro and DH would benefit from a slack engagement system. The suspension is kinda locked by this and have more time/room to react when you have a slacker engagement. This is why there is O-chain to midigate it. Also like I said, hubs that are designed for it.
Pretty cool. Not sure if 550gbp (for rear hub only) cool. Seems like another great innovation that'll be gone and forgotten in a few years with the patents rotting in someones attic.
the only hope is for the company or the patent to be acquired by one of the bigs
As an engineer and wheel builder for over 40 years this is something I've been waiting for it always makes me growl in anger when I see the terrible load paths and lack of inbuilt durability on even the most expensive mtb hubs good job guys great work.
Thanks for this in-depth video mate - fascinating stuff. Salivating over the hubs on their website, but looking at the cost... maybe one day! $1600 AUD for a hubset vs. DT Swiss 350 hubset for 1/4 of the price is a hard leap to make!
I agree and the 350 is a solid choice for most applications
I must check as at moment I'm looking at DT Swiss 180 but that only 28h and rims I'm looking at are 32h
Yeah mate, I just went to the website for a look and nearly fell off my seat.
I'm kicked back in a recliner.
By the time I land one in NZ and pay our import duties, it's about 6 gorillion NZD.
As a. Metallurgist/materials engineer working in engineering mechanics I really appreciate your engineering analyses plus you did a great job with the carbon fibre manufacturing..❤
Yes, he did cover the stresses well. Though he didn't define quading the stiffness, which we know to be from doubling the diameter.
Nor was torque loss due to spring twisting of shaft length addressed.
Was really hoping to see development in a new sprag clutch design.
@@cheerdiver The stiffness in bending is EI, where E is the Young's modulus of the material, or for laminated/sandwich materials, the flexural modulus, and I is the moment of inertia. For a cylindrical tube flexing I is approx pi.r^3.t, r is radius and t wall thickness. Thus doubling r will 8x the stiffness of the tube in flexure. I work with sandwich structures where we have a skin of a laminated composite separated by a much cheaper and lighter material such as high density rigid foam. The flexural modulus is way higher than its Young's modulus because all the tensile loading is carried at the outer surface where the stiff composite laminate is located - the material in the middle of the sandwich is only required to transfer the load, by shear, from one surface to the other, it doesn't have to be particularly strong. And yes the geometry I work mostly with are tubes. The composite laminates have the majority of the fibres running in the hoop direction because I'm mostly interested in elastic buckling from external loads and tensile rupture from internal pressures. There are fibres running in the longitudinal directions, some at +/- 45 some at +/- 60. Materials engineering/engineering mechanics is a fascinating subject and the basis of my business. I should point out that it isn't possible to really repair carbon fibre tubing because the resins used for the most part are thermosetting resins which means once they have reacted there are no free radicals left for anything to bond to. A patch uses shear loading to transfer the stress from the original tube to the patch, then the fibres embedded in the patch transfer the load across the fracture - then the reverse back to the original material on the other side of the failure. The patch is not chemically bonded to the original resin so that surface relies on a huge contact area to transfer the load across a very weak bond. Any bending loads and the patch generally just peels off.
Thanks for the introduction to these! They are just genius; I love to see the innovation! But I SO wish they had figured out how to make it silent because silent hubs annihilate the rest. In the meantime, Onyx hubs FTW.
They have a silent drive in the works. I'm not kidding
With silent drive, I will be a customer.
Spray clutch as in Onyx hubs. Completely silent
@@PeakTorque Hmm have you thought about quieting pawls with rubber pads at the end? This is what some roller coasters use on their anti roll back ratchets on the lift hills to keep em quiter.
I have no idea about hub engineering but your explanation is Peak, please babble away! Very entertaining, informative and interesting and you explained it without too much technical jargon
Incredible video. I really can't understate how much I love watching your videos. They inspire me to think more about my bike while riding and encourages me to think more critically during my own engineering work.
Cheers dude, very kind
Mavic did this a while back with some really nice hubs, that I loved for the low rolling resistance and stiffness. Mounting the freewheel onto the hubshell definitely allowed wider bearing stance.
The devil with this concept is in the bearing tolerance stackup, as we see with cheap freewheels. I'm intrigued to see where this goes.
Proprietary disc rotors is definitely less of a problem nowadays so that m8ght not be a big deal.
Was Corima, not Mavic and indeed they had some challenges to have the "outer" bearings last.
@@cipo36an203no it was definitely mavic. The problem that people had with the implementation was that they used a bushing on one side of the freehub, and this would squeal if it was worn or not lubed/clean. I never had an issue with mine cause I tend to not freewheel at all so a perfect system for me.
Doooo press subscribe if you want more hands on tech like this - 60% of you aren't subscribed, i don't bite. Much.
This is my favourite kind of engineering-y video. Bridges the gap between concept and real world really well.
One of the best presentation of any one topic. Certainly belongs to my Top Ten. Thank you.
I've been talking about this issue for the last 15 years :P There is also the through axle which also contributes to the stiffnes of these quad-bearing designs and it is pretty much the only reason why these work.
The irony here is that these quad-bearing designs are _identical_ in the way loads are transferred to ye-olde screw on freewheels. Which made them bend and break and what the original Shimano freehubs sought to fix.
Actually this design is more close to an old screw on freewheel, topologically speaking. Both have the freewheel mechanism mounted on a double bearing stack (ie the ratcheting part is on a bearing above the hub shell, and then both are on a shared bearing to the axle)
Excellent video! My only concern about the freewheel being coplanar with the disc brake is grease/oil leakage radially outward onto the rotors (especially when you add the heat from the rotor). Obviously they've thought of this, so I'm curious to see their sealing solution. Cheers!
That was one of my first questions i ever had for them and I think in my set there’s a simple static o ring but need to check
The sealing here is taken of by two static seals. The interfaces are sealed very well by compressed o-rings. Our special grease has "drop point" in excess of 260 degrees Celcius (the temp at which it passes from a semi-solid to a liquid state) so your brake fluid will be gaseous long before the grease turns runny! (But yes, still sealed well just in-case)
@@kingofthemountain4557 Beautiful stuff, thanks for the response.
Honestly, how often do you have leaky hubs now?
@@kingofthemountain4557 please allow aftermarket disc manufacturing by other co's
Great analysis, PT! A thoroughly enjoyable and very informative watch.
Subscribed. I’m a Mechanical Engineer, as well as avid biker/skier. Anytime I see solid mechanics, math, etc used to quantify products, I’m instantly hooked. Kudos, looking forward to more stuff like this!!
I've broken two hub axles, a specialized hub and a shimano hub. Currently running a i9 hydra, will see how long that one lasts.... I like to see engineering oriented innovation in the bike industry. This is definitely cool
The Hydras actually tend to break axles easier with big load because of their great PoE and asymmetrical engagement of the freehub iirc. Also used to be Al-axles I think which didn't help the problem.
Wheelworx has a video demonstrating the i9 snapped axles
I'd get a custom built wheel with white industries. They have steel axles.
@@bonbonflippers4298 Just got a Phil Wood rear hub for my daily to see what kind of abuse it takes - feels sturdy to say the least but don't ever put it on a scale :D
I used to tear through hubs on my enduro bike but notice I fly through bearings on my road bike more. I’m 6’3” and 91kgs and can put out good power, so I am definitely going to look in to these hubs more. I like quality that lasts and if I can get these built in to a great road wheel I’d be happy. Possibly the same for my gravel/adventure bike too
Possibly the greatest video I’ve watched on hubs that just makes sense.
Glad you like the look of our hubs! One of the reasons road bikes also eat through bearings when people don't expect them to is because most manufacturers put stupidly small bearings in to keep the weight weenies happy - which ironically leads to an even less efficient hub!
@@kingofthemountain4557 I used to focus on weight, then realised actually a few grams is tiny in comparison to me losing 6-8kgs when I’m race fit. I need to get a wheelset for my gravel/bikepacking Ti bike as got a terrible pair of stock wheels on it still.
@@kingofthemountain4557 Absolutely, and that's the case on many 'more efficient' machines. They pay Peter to spite Paul.
Take saddles for instance...if you're not comfortable, you're not performing well. A few extra grams in the right place can be an investment.
Great video and the axle stiffness discussion was interesting. I have a Renn 575 disc with a 10mm aluminum axle. I've suspected it could be bending and verified some rubbing by blueing the hub shell next to the freehub.
Your video helped push me to the better fix of making a larger 15mm steel axle. Thanks!
This was outside of my wheelhouse, but I appreciate your work on this video. Very interesting tech. Thank you.
it's both infuriating and hilarious how I9 actually sold the design flaw as a feature. "the hub gets stronger and has more engagement the harder you pedal!". The hubs were DESIGNED to crack their axles and it's genuinely irresponsible in a product marketed in a sport where you can get seriously injured if your wheels fail.
Always thought it was sketchy, now I have a whole video backing my point up, thanks
That's a GREAT way to put it! Thank you!
Nix the pawl engagement and utilize the star ratchet, or better yet, the Chris King spline drive ratchet engagement and you have a truly bombproof hub.
One that can withstand unreal torque and impact loads of a mountain tandem. And even worse, an electric mountain tandem!
I didn't want to name drop them much but yes. It's an axle manufacturer now. The Gillette Mach 5 Hydra
That's a very smart design ! And with regards to stiffness, I think it's probably best to have a very stiff hub and play on the compliance with the spokes and rim.
Why would you wish for give in a bearing axle to begin with?
Why would you want compliance in spokes / rim? You want to have more fatigue in the design? I would rather have stiff spokes and rim and good tires, but who am I... (edit: after diligently watching until the end, the video is clearly directed to downhill, where the hub design is most advantageous). That could have been made clearer from the beginning. Although promising and superior in design in relation to axle stiffness / load distribution, Most road racers won't feel / see the benefits from this hub design.
@@l.d.t.6327 The clip talks about the compliance issue, it's clearly a response to that.
Well, it's best to play on the compliance with your tire pressure. That's all.@@simon7719
The person who had a Ph.D appears nonsense because the patents can be challenged by using different explanation behind a slightly different design by a normal engineer or draftsperson . A company that buys the manufacturing rights will probably kill the product due to economic constraints . I know someone else who has a bicycle related Ph D and yet they are financial battlers today . Many Ph D graduates get their fingers burnt as manufacturers "ASSUME" credit for the design due to unfair unwritten law .The exposure of new products triggers other people to supercede this product overnight . I have seen many similar hubs to these in the Patent Office pending , Gazette . I read these regularly . These hubs are still "PENDING" , having checked the gazette issues after the video was watched by myself and a group of mechanical engineers and chemists , metallurgists and scientists .
Absolutely amazing tech from the company, thanks a lot for the explanation!
Ha ha, when PT advised that the KOM should be adopted by eBikes for mitigating torque fatigue I almost spit my corn flakes across the room. Around here, in Toronto, we have eBikes exploding on subways and the streets are littered with liberated parts from cheaply made Sino-sourced eVehicles. Forget about optimal engineering geared toward durability and efficiency, we're shooting for standards adequate to ensure minimal safety for the vulnerable masses. Keep up the good work PT.
Love these analyses - if they make this for road/gravel it’s on my list.
We do! 24 and 28 hole. 142x12. We make proper individual XD and XDR cassette holders - If you're running a mtb cassette then XD cassette holder is the way to go (2mm wider driveside spoke flange!)
I had a look at your website - only saw boost hubs listed. I’ll check you guys out when I’m in the market for new wheels.
@@kingofthemountain4557 Maybe you could update your site with those options then? Also, add weights please?
@@pmcmpc On the list, cheers!
Ditto, albeit I only glanced through it. The engineering paper posted is more important to me at this point, as well as price.
Saw these a few months ago on a trade stand at a race, and was genuinely a bit taken a back, never seen a hub like it and obviously had a few questions. spoke to the engineer/designer who explained the entire system in detail and i must say i was blown away and instantly sold, however we got on to talking brake rotors and he went onto explain that the only brake rotors to choose from were ones he was making himself, i think if he could move to the rohloff rotor fitment i would buy a set tomorrow, the rotor he showed me had no venting/edges for the pad to cut into just a smooth surface, this saddly however i couldn’t get on board with rotors come in varying thicknesses to suit different brake calipers and i would be after something quite specific, you wouldnt try to create a new spoke standard so please dont mess with the brake rotors, would open his customer base massively and he could focus on the main product the hubs! Not disc rotors, we have lots of options for rohloff rotors in different sizes and thicknesses that are of a high quality and are cheap. Very frustrating
I disagree. Do you know how cheap and crap the mass produced 6 bolt rotors on the market are? Almost all of the big brands are made in 2 factories in Taiwan. Nothing wrong with that, but they're made to a price. If a rotor is something they could do better, why would they not? These are a superior hardness, and lapped finish to most other rotors on the market bar maybe Trickstuff.
@@PeakTorque okay maybe I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss something on looks and the rotor you show in the video seems like a far more finished product than the one I saw. I just think in-terms of availability and differing sizes proprietary systems do present some genuine issues
Just found your channel because of this video, really enjoyed the in-depth technical analysis as a practising engineer, thank you.
Awesome, thank you!
Wonderful info. Your delivery is precise and digestible. thank you!
Efficiency gains or not, increased bearing life and less friction would be a gain worth looking at. File this hub in the NEED column. Thanks
By staying with reliable manufacturers rather than chasing the shiniest, loudest hub with the most clicks, bearing life doesn't really seem to be an issue - Specifically Hope Pro4's, though I did crack the microspline driver on one after a couple of thousand km - replaced quickly and without any quibble by Hope under warranty. The bearings still feel fine though.
I have a front Pro2 that's 20 years old, ridden nearly daily (Downgraded to commuting for the past few years, but it had tens of thousands of km put on it between XC, marathon and street riding before that) and it's still perfectly smooth on the original bearings - but front hubs give bearings a much easier life. The rear hub was replaced by an XTR that finally started skipping too much (On a 16 click you can't miss even one missed engagement), which again was still smooth on the original axle bearings - the freehub bearings were pretty grindy admittedly.
Looking at that hub. Clearly the industry didn't think about a fundamental redesign to the standard bicycle hub. Look at what fresh design and thought can do.
For what though? Can’t think of any hub I’ve had over the last 10 years that was really bad. I did ride Onyx mtb hubs and it was pretty awesome having infinite engagement but they all seemed to work perfectly fine.
I'm with you on this one, it's a smart design but well see how is the ration of cost and finaled utility of it. Mavic made similar nieche solutions but in terms of use the peasants Shimano was a wiser option.
Wow this sounds great love the analysis.
Can’t wait till they start experimenting further to get the weight down. Then it will really be a no brainer and shake things up for competitors
Thank you for such a detailed explanation, as an engineer, I applaud your detailed analysis. Keep it up, you have a new subscriber.
Cool idea, but here's the cost calculation at the moment: One of these hubs buys a complete bike of decent quality, which translates to axle, bearing, and other parts replacements for decades for a traditional hub. So unless your use case specifically causes excessive damage, all it provides is a bling factor.
Bling is priceless!
8:54 the shimano cup and cone design places the drivers side wheel bearing in the middle of the free hub (way past the spokes/hubflange), also using 1/4" diameter bearings. Its still a masterpiece that requires experience to setup preloads and with bearing races are difficult to source and replace
Yep totally right. Shimano got it right. Im only comparing to cartridge bearing type hubs here.
I like the Shimano design a lot, but I have one major dislike which is the typically loose freewheel bearings (at least after some years of use). And the Shimano freewheel bearings are adjusted from factory with 1 and 0.5 mm shims (IIRC from last opening one), so you would need a bit of diy hackery to get that adjustment tighter again.
@@PeakTorque I don't think Shimano got it right. Bicycle wheels aren't loaded axially and to my knowledge, Shimano are the only wheel manufacturer that insist on cup and cone bearings that are often not set up correctly from the factory. Bearings either like they are full of gravel because they've been over tightened, or the classic Shimano wheel wobble because they are too loose. Someone on an assembly-line is using spanners to lock nuts together...
@@Sidowse”someone on assembly line…”?😅 were you there? And why?
@@willo7979 Already you haven't quoted me properly, so you're not off to a good start. You'd really have to prove to me that machines are used to assemble cup and cone bearings. Plus, what accounts for the inconsistency? That remains regardless of whether it is a machine or a person.
Avoid anything Shimano that has bearings like wheels and pedals.
Brilliant video, conveyed sometimes heavy subjects with ease well done
If u like that design, u will love the Box One Stealth Expert Rear Hub. Solved the same problem but much more elegant with off-the-shelf parts for 1/3 of the price. Only problem the mtb version in not in production yet 😢 there is a cut view when you go on the main page/technology/stealth ...
Proprietary rotor standard in exchange for increased stiffness doesn’t sound good
That's an innovative design. I'll have to consider it when I get an ebike. I'm curious to know your opinion on Onyx Vespyr hubs
Great video. Love new innovation like this. Hopefully it'll trickle to the masses.
Very very fascinating. And a good engineering explanation without getting too deep into the nitty gritty.
Interesting. A shame it requires a proprietary disc rotor as that will reduce it's OE spec adoption.
Show me an OE bike that has a $500 rear hub installed
@@janeblogs324 True. Although there's a few DT180's out there. I guess what I meant was a manufacturer is less likely to license the patent.
I wonder if the rotors are compatible with Rohloff 4-bolt (65mm PCD)? Magura and Brakestuff already make compatible rotors.
Hi! They are not compatible with Rohloff and vice versa. The containment strength of the steel disc is critical to our design (one of the reasons our drive system is so strong for the weight- as we utilize the intrinsic strength that a steel disc already has) - we wouldn't want someone fitting a non-compatible disc to compromise our design.
Very cool stuff and I love the engineering discussion around it. There certainly is some benefit here. Love to see people pushing the boundaries and thinking outside the box. Having said that, we’re looking at a hub set that costs double what my entire wheelset costs, which is light, fast and hasn’t seen any reliability issues. So the use case that this hub is needed for might be very small, especially when you factor in who would pay for it. Then when you consider if the company goes under you’re stuck with a proprietary brake rotor you can’t source since they’re the only producer, that’s a very expensive paper weight set. Best of luck to them, but they have a major uphill battle.
Enjoyed your analysis, thanks for sharing. Not an e bike owner so hadn’t thought about the combo of human and electric power and the additional forces applied to parts not designed for it.
Solve one problem and create two more.
Very fascinating. Thank you for doing this review/explanation. It certainly makes a lot of sense. I've also been researching Onyx Vesper hubs recently with the sprag clutch design and would love your opinion on them as well. Thanks as always.
I'm questioning the design choice of 4 bolt for rotor. More commentary on why existing 6-bolt pattern has not been used would be amazing.
1. Because it won't fit around the ratchet system housing. Which is part of the modular/easily serviceable design.
2. I guess they thought they could do better rotors. These are superior to the cheap 6 bolt rotors out there in terms of material, hardness, lapping flatness, and noise. FYI I would say 90% (in terms of sale volume) 6 bolt rotors on the market, apart from the very boutique ones and not including Shimano, are made in 2 factories in Taiwan. Nothing wrong with that, but they're made to a low price.
Edit: lots of comments on rotors so i will pin this for a while.
@@PeakTorque I thought that the reasoning would be around 'it doesn't fit' (your point #1). If the flange size in this design is dictated by the size of the ratchet (or the stack of previous components), then we're moving towards hubs with significantly larger flanges that also, as we know, helps with spoke bracing angles. IMO this looks like a solid, reasonable blow towards brake disc mounting systems/standards (6-bolt and center lock). Which I highly appreciate! Just look at Hope or Galfer floating rotors where the working surface is matched with usually AL carrier; in the case of "new" brake mounting standard the carrier will be smaller (i.e. the flange would eat up that space).
To your point #2: I get it that some company can make a better rotor, especially when it's a commodity product and there is a limited number of factories that supply those. From the business perspective the challenge is the public awareness in the market, that ultimately drives the purchasing behaviour of consumers. Yes, a new company might come up with the new standard and declare that their product is made out of the same material and with the same technology as Galfer (or any other major OEM), but most of people would be like "wow, wild stuff, much respect but I'm good with my RT66". And the reason for that would be manufacturing volumes that support negotiation power (low volumes usually mean low negotiation power).
Rohloff has been using a 4 bolt rotor for as long as they have been producing a disc brake compatible hub.
Rohloff has been using a 4 bolt rotor for as long as they have been producing a disc brake compatible hub.
Rohloff has been using a 4 bolt rotor for as long as they have been producing a disc brake compatible hub.
I hope these aren't to expensive. I can't wait to hear the reviews on this product! A geeky but engaging video! It made me want one 100% Another thing I didn't know I needed to worry about.
Love the design, what a clever and revolutionary take on the freehub. A great example of something that eminently deserves patent protection - because once you've seen it, it's rather straightforward to do it yourself andthe inventors deserve the success from their hard work rather than have a big competitor just copy them and drive them out of business...
Has been patented by Corima in 99 and now in public domain. At least part of it.
Shimano hubs have a lot less unsupported axle because of the way the free hub bolts to the hub shell. Many mavic hubs accomplished this is as well although their system had much smaller bearings.
And you can buy a lot of Shimano hubs for 800 GBP...
@@thomaszabukosek979800???
Custlmisable POE, lower torque on the pawls, better stiffness, better bearing life, it all sounds good! I love that even in this century with all our advancements, we get true innovation like this.
Is the splined section of the freehub a press fit on to the center and ratcheting system?
Thanks very much! The "cassette holder" as we call it (it isn't really a freehub body for us) is threaded onto the main axle/ driveshaft. It can be easily un-threaded to swap out for different cassette fitments. Hope this answers your question!
@kingofthemountain4557 Thanks, that makes sense. I wish you the best of luck with this design because I think Travis Perkins' assessment of this being superior to traditional hubs in pretty much every way is spot on.
If you can say, what's your planned strategy for breaking into the market? World Cup DH? Enduro? TDF? Start high-end and target Hope and DT?
@@howarddavies136 Thanks, and good question! Certainly starting high end, our tiny batches are very expensive, costs will drop a lot with volume - a cheaper version has been talked about but there is simply more going on with our design so we'll see if competing with those brands becomes a reality. And hopefully the efficiency gains on a hub-cruel Paris-Roubaix will be too much to ignore for race teams ;)
What a BRILLIANT video! Superb explanations, fantastic drawings and animations and insights only a MechEng can deliver. As a physicist I've long been fascinated by bicycle design and despite the fact they've been around for about 150 years there's plenty of room for improvements. I first got a heads-up early in the video when the language used showed knowledge of mechanical engineering and not just the usual cyclist fare. This video was certainly a lot of work but well worth it. And congratulations to K-O-M, the company manufacturing this groundbreaking hub. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Thank you, Rob. Very kind words!
@@PeakTorque Very well deserved and not one hyperbole too many!
Simple and fantastic design. I look forward to this becoming a standard. Great explanation video too!
Nice design! Ebike mechanic here in California. As a guy who studied engineering and now fixes ebikes for a living i love your content!
You make your own disc rotors? Do you have a video on that? I thought I had watched all your stuff.
Cheers! I have no video on them yet, but the eagle eyed can spot them on test in some of my more recent video. Its been about a 2 year project so far and still testing!
this looks very promising and a big step forwards. That said, I think £550 for a single hub is a lot. if you're chasing stiffness for its own sake, then you would want more than 32 spokes, as would most people after maximum longevity. A 36 hole version would be excellent for loaded touring bikes and e-bikes.
This hub addresses stiffness for the sake of bearing and axle life, lateral wheel stiffness is just a byproduct (and as PT points out, perhaps an undesirable one for some people). Adding spokes is mostly about increasing load capacity. You do get much more lateral stiffness with additional spokes, but again, this isn't something people are necessarily looking for. If that was your priority, a stiffer rim has the greatest effect.
@@alexdi1367 is completely right! To add to his great points, the hub should be done right by being a very stiff foundation on which the wheel is built on. Whether you want lateral or radial flex for ride feel/ grip etc you can choose a suitable spoke/ spoke count /rim to get your desired characteristics.
@@kingofthemountain4557 Yeah, I blame the lack of engineering savvy on the part of some readers as to understanding the need for adherence to form on bearing infrastructure. This is explained well in the engineering PDF you post for download on your mailing list.
Having your spokes being the 'forgiving' part is also not desirable. It should be the rims, at least within limits.
@@stephensaines7100If your rim flexes, then your spokes are definitely also flexing. Those two always go together, and probably should be appropriately combined, at least for longevity. So the spokes should be stiff and tight for a stiff rim (e.g. deep aero profile). And strong (fatigue resistant, e.g. double-/triple-butted) spokes if you have a more flexible rim and/or a high bicycle system weight.
@@alexdi1367 I disagree because your analysis doesn't take into account the increased stiffness of the straight pull spokes. Of course, it doesn't apply to a straight pull Industry 9 hub, but for all the others using the J bend, the spokes are going to flex more (the J bend prevents it from making a perfect triangle and introduces a small bit of cantilever/leverage) and that flex adversely affects the overall strength of the wheel, even if you have a very stiff rim. Like if even 1 spoke flexes, then the section of rim subject to flexing doubles, the leverage of the hit doubles, etc. Also, I know empirically that a 36 spoke wheel has much more longevity, at least in the rear. I used to race road/track and had a big problem with burning through rear training wheels every 6 months. I could leg press 1600 lbs. and in either sprints or attacks would put some pretty big force on the drive side of the rear wheel. Getting a 36 spoke rear wheel, 3 cross, with brass nipples (along with running a 28mm tire) custom built solved the problem, that thing lasted maybe 3 years until I quit racing and it probably would have lasted indefinitely. The front wheel, otoh, didn't have that force going into it and even a 28 spoke was fine, maybe even a 24 spoke would've worked. Never had a problem with the fronts.
A new standard worth signing off on- brilliant.
Beautifully described, great video.
suprised you didn't go into the sealing side of things, being mainly aimed at mtbs. and also how rare are those thin cross section bearings? otherwise excellent design innovation, and great overview, thanks!
yeah.. I was wondering if the bearings to the far right might be roller bearings
i think it must be double row ball bearing judging by how the outer race is supported@@valentinomanontroppo4675
What about bearings longevity? Wouldn't they have the same problems as 6706 bearings in 30mm axle + pf92 bottom brackets?
Love the video, was engaging throughout and now i've found a new channel to subscribe to!
Wow, that was a great video! Finally someone with real engineering knowledge in bike components. And then you even used Gigapascal and not some "freedom units" - subscribed!
I love it. There have been many attempts to make a modern hub with a properly supported axle similar to a standard Shimano hub. Most failed due to space constraints with the freehub mechanism (and not accounting for inevitable flex) Moving all that to the left side is clever, there's plenty of extra space there.
It looks like both right side bearings are captured by the two piece axle and two piece freehub body, is that correct? Does that mean both left bearings are floating and therefore axle and shell machining tolerances are not as critical? The width of the right most bearing is also reassuring. I hope they have well designed labyrinth and lip seals. Many otherwise decent hubs have been ruined by insufficient sealing.
Very well understood! Correct on the floating bearings - both of the Disc-side bearings are a floating fit, with both of the Drive-side bearings supplying the axial positioning. As Alex mentioned, our hub has Peak District-proof sealing!
Good points!
Let's raise a hand if you have broken an axle 😬🙋
I cycle, but I'm not a cyclist of any discipline, and I'm not thick, but I'm not an engineer, but I understood all of what you spoke about. bugger knows how the algorithm threw your video my way, but it was very informative. You are a great educator, thanks for the video! Subscribed.
thankyou!
Nice to see a completely new component design that integrates with all existing bikes.
Concerning the load path... I always thought, through the high spoke tension, the hub is more like hanging on the top spokes (which then transfer the force via the rim to the ground) so that the force would be pulling on the top flanges rather than pushing at the bottom flanges.
Correct, but it's irrelevant. You treat the forces acting on the hub as coming up from the ground, while the frame dropout is applying force in the opposite direction, or downward.
No, that's a common misconception. The hub is effectively standing on the bottom spoke.
I don't like the proprietary disc rotors. Where will I get new discs when they go out of business in a few years?.
I'm not just being a troll.
I am currently shopping for a new set of wheels ( I'm leaning towards onyx and these really piked my interests but the proprietary disks are a deal killer, the history of small bike companies is not good (ie trust, gorilla gravity, point one, maverick and many others) I'm not risking $1200 over not being able to buy disks in 2 years after they go under.
Brilliant! Vert well conveyed Peak Torque.
Tart checking in, sound is ace 👌
£550 for a rear hub, thanks but no thanks
Fair enough!
Commercial for KOM. Now they just need to combine it with that Classified gizmo and they'll be rich and famous, especially from sales of all those proprietary cassettes and discs! How much do these companies pay you for a glowing review and claims of longevity that are just marketing bullspeak? Do viewers pay as well? Get back to us when (like someone else posted) "it'll be gone and forgotten in a few years with the patents rotting in someone's attic".
This is no better than Dave Arthur reading from the spec sheet. It's obvious he has been paid for this.
You’re wrong here 😂 i am testing it and have been for months. If it falls apart and is shit, you will know about it. I don’t do ads on this channel my friends 🎉 also I don’t think DA has a degree in engineering and 14 years experience
"You’re wrong here 😂 i am testing it and have been for months. If it falls apart and is shit, you will know about it."
After how many have been sold via the hype from this advertorial? How many will be gathering dust in someone's attic after they've failed and the maker is long out-of-business?
big thing to watch out for with theses is the grease seal around the free hub leaking on your rotor but the benefits are honestly incredible very worth it for the bigger bikes.
This is great stuff. I hope this becomes the stamdard. Freewheel body play is a killer.
you babble on to much get to the point...
I agree, GET ON WITH IT!!!
GET ON WITH IT
@@theweaselcat3564 As an ex bicycle and component designer I thought he did an excellent job explaining how it works. Hell I even learned why the rear hollow axle always gets galled on the free-body side. Thank god we don't have impatient designers like you working inside the bicycle industry.... "Wait", I take that back, there are quite a few folks like you that work for some famous brands that make bad impatient decisions that end up injuring riders and causing massive recalls.
@@danielsotelo3942🤓🤓
From an engineering pov this absolutely makes sense. Thank you for explaining as clearly as possible, it’s not simple but I get where you’re coming from.
Excellent video! As an engineer, I could watch these deep dive tech videos all day! ❤ Interesting to see new hub design concepts. Any concerns over the freehub body to outer axle interface? Appears to be a threaded interface and involves the inner race of the bearing at that location. Will that impact bearing life? What types of tools are needed to remove the body? That interface is subject to extremely high loads, triggering old freewheel removal flashbacks. Any concerns over the heat from the disc impacting the ratchet interface?
Excellent job in explaining design parameters and technical details in layman's terms. As an engineer, I have always found that difficult.
Thanks. Yt is a mix of skilled people, and absolute downright trolls. Its very hard to find a balance.
As the rear hubs on my MTB have failed me more than once over the years (and they're not exactly cheap), I have a keen interest in the subject. Thanks for explaining this great new design.
Great explanation and you are so right, that's a way better design
Nice explanation! Hope you could also make another similar video on silent hubs like the ones from Onyx.
I vaguely remember Boyd cycling designed a hub something like this some time ago. The ratchet was not moved to the non drive side, but there was a secondary "axel" which is an extension of the hub shell. The hub never really made it to market, with Boyd claiming the manufacturing tolerance required could not be met.
Love the fine definition please keep up all the techie information. I wouldn't have bought a Hydra Hub if I had watched your video first😅 I am running an onyx on another set of carbon wheels and I really do love the sprag style do you have anything to say about sprag style hub assemblies
Peak Torque filling us up with knowledge again😊😊😊
I've had these for decades! Right there in my washing machine agitator.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: You're the best Winkelvoss and the only one the world really needed
another great long form video, that allows detail to be explained. keep up the great work and as a roadie, I'll have to consider how relevant these might be to me. would be intersting to know how long climbs might put added load through the hub...
I actually cut the original down from 40 mins to this. I didn't want to strip more info out. You have Physics PhDs and absolute trolls here on YT. Its a wide audience