Zones vs Flat Fares: What’s the Better Transit Fare Scheme?
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- čas přidán 4. 12. 2023
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One of the biggest debates in the transit world is how transit fares should be organized, so let's talk about it - zone fares or flat fares?
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
One big benefit of distance based fares (tap in and tap out) is that the transit agency gets granular ridership data for future planning.
I guess you can get that data even if the fee is not distance based as long as you tap in and out
You can still get that by requiring tapping in and out, no matter the distance.
Don't forget tracking people's movements through the city. I'm sure local (and Federal) governments love that feature-not-a-bug.
Though with facial recognition today, these transit agencies (and governments) can do exactly what you're saying, no tapping involved.
@@bas3qwell if you pay with a pass that you purchased with cash then that's a no
@@KamiInValhalla True, but the long-term trend seems to be moving away from physical passes and cash towards digital payment and app-based farecards. Which are absolutely traceable.
Honorable mention to the German „Deutschlandticket“ where you can ride public transit across all of Germany for just 49€ per month. Absolutely brilliant to never have to think about fares. It’s also subscription based so companies can plan ahead.
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Also transport in germany is quite expensive if your not a regular user or tourist though (my return trip from Berlin airport to Leipzig was €3.80 (S-bahn to hbf) and €21 for the train (booked in advance) x2 which is €49.60. For the return trip. Thats nearly as expensive as my flights from Dublin!
@@jamesquaine6264 That's not expensive flying is just dirt cheap.
@@maikotter9945 I guess you mean the ticket is doomed. Since the ticket was announced the federal government and states have been bickering about who has to pay for the extra costs. Worst thing that will happen is that it gets more expensive. It is still an extremely good deal especially for commuters who previously paid €100 and more per month just within their local area.
@@MartinBrenner I laugh at commenters (like Maik Otter) who post stuff that's incoherent in both languages.
London does have daily, weekly and monthly fare caps, so no matter how many journeys you make you'll never pay more than those amounts. You can also buy season tickets and travelcards for a day, week, month or year. Both the caps and season tickets are zone based, so the cap amount, and cost of a season ticket will depend on the zones used. The busses and trams are all flat fares, and with the busses you get a second bus free within 2 hours iirc, so journeys needing more than one bus cost the same as if you only took.
NYC has pretty much the same system. afaik you pay for 12 rides a week max
I was just going to add this information. There are also peak and off peak fares.
The bus has a "Hopper" fare of £1.75 for unlimited journeys made within an hour. So if you tap in your first bus at say 5pm, you can board as many buses as you want after that for free up to 5:59pm.
The cap on the total fare (as is the case with TfL) has the benefit that you don't need to guesstimate your transportation needs and wants at the beginning of whatever period (day, week, month).
However the fare structure kind of still factors in your choice of transport. For 'once in a full moon ' trips out into outlying London destinations I sometimes opted for the bus because there's only one single zone instead of having to pay for many more zones on the tube...(however I was only there as a tourist many moons ago)
How much is the monthly cap for all of London these days? I always hoped the tube and other rail would eventually have the same fares as the buses and trams, which is the norm in much of Europe. In Germany, the "Deutschlandticket": a monthly ticket for bus, tram, subway, local and regional rail in the whole country is 49€/month. I find I can't be as flexible in the UK, even within the individual cities and when travelling with friends, we can't improvise as much because it always seems like we need really specific tickets for everything.
When competing with the car, the most important type of fare is the availability of subscription-based weekly or monthly passes covering as wide an area as possible. Most drivers don't think too much about the price of driving, because they have already payed a sizeable sum to buy a car. Long-term passes achieve a similar mindset in passengers, encouraging the use of public transportation even for trips in the evening or on weekends when a car might actually be faster.
Nice point there!
"Most drivers don't think too much about the price of driving" You'd be surprised how much people and the industry does take this into consideration. AAA publishes the cost of driving, if you have a job that requires you to record your mileage cost, we use that to be reimbursed or for tax purposes, if you work in the freight industry costs per mile is calculated in shipping costs, etc.
And who's to say it's only in competition with the car? Push comes to shove, you can compete overly priced passes with something more economical like a motorcycle, moped or a scooter. Look at Taipei.
I think more about petrol costs than how much my car cost!
I think simple fair system works best. I personally liked pragues time based fair, 30min, 90min, 24hrs and 72hrs for a single pass. Then locals can buy the 30, 90 or 365 day passes. Its very cheap which helps as well but even if the prices were higher it limits confusion and makes sense for someone new to the system.
Rome (Italy) also has this system and tbh, I agree with you, it makes everything much more simple
I agree, I hate overly complex systems. Fares should be something simple you just do and don't have to think about much. I hate having to spend hours researching how some city's public transport fare system works when I visit it.
In my city the system is like this and the tickets are very cheap (0.53€ for 30 minutes), the only problem is the trams and busses are rather slow so sometimes a 60 or 90 minute one is needed.
Keep in mind Prague has zonal tickets outside the municipal borders (for commuter/regional rail and suburban buses)
The problem with such fare systems is delays. Someone might get a fine as the first vehicle they were using was delayed...
@@skblablablabla every system has its pros and cons. I prefer this system but it was also 20 Canadian dollars for 3 full days of transit which is what I got limiting the issue you brought up. Also the system had you initalize/datestamp your pass on entry into the vehicle or at a metro station so if your first vehicle was late it didn’t count towards your time. Also frequency in Prague was awesome as well as the integration into map apps so a 30 or 90min pass is pretty reliable for most trips.
i personally like seoul's metro fare system where for the first 10km you pay ₩1,400 (around $1.07) and for every extra 5km you pay an additional ₩100 (around $0.7), making it both a fixed and zoned based fares, while not being overly expensive
Your numbers don't seem to add up
One thing that I appreciated the one time I been there (I may be wrong, it's been a few years) is that everything is deducted from your T-money card when exiting the network - as a tourist, being able to "just take the subway and it'll be charged accordingly" instead of "Hum, I need to try to understand if I need this ticket or this one or that one for this particular trip" was just so convenient
In Japan the various JR group companies use a similar system. So does Tokyo Metro and Toei, and those private companies which through-line with them.
@@Max24871 ₩100 is $0.07 (7c)
A very good fare system indeed! The affordability being a key element.
As someone living in Singapore, I honestly love distance-based fares. I take a lot of short trips, so that helps to make sure I don’t pay a high flat fare just for a short bus ride. Additionally, our fares are quite cheap, at around 1.70 USD max for any ride (or 2.15 USD if the ride includes an express bus). The most convenient thing about our public transport is that all fares are standardised and use an integrated fare system, so we can reduce costs if we’re transferring to another bus or train service, and we don’t need to pay a new flat fare per transfer.
Was looking for this answer. Also, worth to mention that the distance-based fare is non-linear. You pay a base fee for any trip, then the fare increases with distance, but the further you go, the lower the additional fee per km. So crossing the island doesn't cost that much in comparison to a relatively short trip. I also love the system here.
Was ALSO looking for this answer! I think the point about the complexity of distance fares is overstated…the main thing that matters is “further=more $”, which is easy to grasp. But simultaneously, the marginal difference between two stops just isn’t worth worrying about. Contrast to a zone system where two stations right next to each other can cost significantly different amounts to travel to!
Honestly, having lived in both Singapore and London, the zoning system in London feels way more complex than Singapore’s distance fares
Having a fully integrated system is totally fundamental and Singapore nails this
Yep. Singapore's system is extremely complex (fare tables are massive)..
But it is also extremely fair.
No zone, or distance boundaries where the difference between stops a short distance sort can be $1-2.
And the alternatives - car or taxi/ rideshare have far greater distance components.
And reality is with a prepaid card or credit card does it really matter if your fare is $2.01 or $2.05.
Singapore feels more like a hybdrid, because generally between 1/3 to 2/3 of your fare is the base minimum fare that you get for travelling the smallest possible distance. For concession card holders the difference between minimum and maximum fares is so small it might as well be a flat fare. That being said incremental distance-based is better than zone-based.
In Skåne, Sweden, we have a zone-based system that is ”customizeable”. You can pick out your start and end points and other stops as you wish and the system will adapt a circular zone of set sizes to it (and price). This allows unlimited travel on all modes provided by the agency within your own zone within the set amount of time it’s valid (also based one the size of the zone). I think this is a great system for it’s flexibility.
Clever idea as long as you have the system to handle it.
That sounds like a nightmare to code (and thus could be an issue to use given how many government systems are designed here in North America) but very fair if implemented properly.
I was wondering about something like that - like a distance-based fare only less granular. Naturally it's hard to think of something that hasn't already been thought of!
This is a very interesting concept! I am going to look into it!
Sweden, where pretty much every state/province has its own unlimited travel tickets, although a little more expensive for some. Skåne county has an amazing 2 month summer ticket during 15th June to 15th August and you may include Blekinge county! Why does Sweden have this and not Denmark with its expensive point to point tickets?
Videos like this make me so thankful to live in Portland, Oregon where a single fare buys you 2 1/2 hours on the Max, Ctran (Vancouver, Washington) and Trimet buses, and the Portland Streetcar. If you buy another fare that same day, your fare becomes a Day Pass and it is good until 3:30am; if you buy 20 days of Day Passes in a calendar month, it becomes a Monthly Pass and you don't get charged beyond that. All this on your Hop card which is contactless.
Thanks for another informative video, Reece!
It also covers the WES commuter rail. Though if you want to use the C-Tran express buses from Portland to Vancouver or Vice-versa it caps at $7.7 daily and $125 monthly.
And that goes to show that there are places in the world that have it far better than The Netherlands, where this should have been the major feature for the chipcard introduction back in the days, but the system was designed so piss-poorly, it can't even understand a return-journey on trains. Where 2 single ride tickets from A to B and B back to A used to be slightly more expensive than a return-ticket A-B, the prices of single journey tickets were lowered as the system for the chipcard just could not handle something called 'return ticket'.
That and many other features have gone down the drain, ranking Dutch public transportation about the most expensive in the world (and not only expensive, also insanely complex...)
Here in Santiago, Chile, as incredible as this sounds for most people, we don’t use ANY of the fare systems (flat and/or zones) described in the video. Instead, at least in the Metro, we use *time-based* fares, that is, how much you pay depends on what time it is at the time of tapping in. At day beginning/ends (super off-peak), the fare currently costs 650 Chilean pesos; at off-peak hours it is 730 pesos, and during rush/peak hours it costs 810 pesos (those fairs, respectively, would be around 0.74 , 0.83 and 0.92 US dollars). And similar to NYC’s flat fares, once you pay, it doesn’t matter how long you travel, you’ll pay the same as other people at a certain time of day. Unfortunately, you don’t get refunds if you start a trip during rush-hour and end it at an off-peak time (as an example). And Santiago’s fare system gets more confusing since prices vary depending if you take just the Metro, buses or Suburban Train (in singular; as of me writing this we only have 1 suburban train line) or if you combine those transportation methods. I don’t know if time-based fares are exclusive to Santiago or if another Metro system uses them; in the latter case, please comment.
Having peak/off peak fares is used in many cities, and is a whole other thing to the fare systems Reece was talking about here. Santiago, by the sounds of your description, is using the flat fare system like NY, but with peak pricing as well. London has its zones but also has peak time price increases. And in London, like Santiago, the time your journey starts is what matters, not when it ends.
I thought you mean you pay based on number of minutes you spent in the metro system😂
Having time based fare adjustments isn't all that uncommon, so I would still call it a flat fare system - that being said I think a simplification of the system is in order!
@@RMTransit The Metro fare system isn't that complex actually, there are only three schedules and a fixed reduced fare for both senior citizens and students that's available all day long. The combination fares among the Metro, buses and (future) Urban Trains come down to "you can take three buses, two buses + one Train/Metro, or one bus + one Metro + one Train, and you'll only end up paying for the most expensive fare of them (since bus rides are generally less expensive than Metro/Train)"
We recently also implemented QR payments with both the official Red Metropolitana and the Banco Estado apps, and they allow you to cap off your fare spending at CLP$38000 (around US$44) any given calendar month of the year. Any of your rides after that (using the QR apps) will be free until the next calendar month begins and the counter restarts.
The Netherlands uses time-based tickets at (at least) the GVB operator (public transport operator of Amsterdam). But those time based tickets are independent of the time you travel, there's no off-peak or peak tariff. One can also travel beyond the time set by the ticket as far as I know (example: one buys a 60 minute ticket, rides 1 bus and 1 tram and when one changes to the metro, there are only 4 minutes left. One can enter the metro with that ticket (given that a tap-in happens within those 4 minutes remaining) but once tapped in, you can always exit the station, even if the time-window has expired.
"Heathrow and THE OTHER STATION" killed me
I live in Munich and here for example if a Station is near a border of 2 zones, it gets counted as being in both to make the fares for each individual cheaper or make it cost as much in any direction. I think it‘s a great solution to that issue with a station being next to a border to another zone.
There's actually at least two kinds of zone fare systems: concentric rings (Munich) and a honeycomb structure (often rural areas in Germany).
Both are distance based but one (honeycomb structure) punishes you for going across town (from suburb to suburb). However some transit systems additionally offer a "distance as the crow flies" fare system, so you don't pay extra if transit takes the long way 'round whereas the competition (=car) goes directly.
And then there's the fare capping system in rural Brandenburg (beyond the fare rings of Berlin and the kreisfreie Städte), which uses honeycombs up to a certain distance (I think up to five zones), then goes distance-based for single and day tickets and uses Landkreise and kreisefreie Städte as zones for weekly, monthly, and annual passes, and there are also VBB-wide single tickets and passes available so there is an absolute cap on the price of urban and regional public transport even in the far reaches of Brandenburg. As usual, there are also zone-blind Kurzstrecke (‘short hop’) tickets available (albeit the definition of a Kurzstrecke varies by region and mode). It's a fine system as far as I can tell, but I think it would be a bit more legible if it was purely zone-based with price capping (albeit with larger honeycomb zones in the countryside) rather than calculating fares off of zones, distances, and administrative boundaries depending on the context and the ticket type. That said, VBB's current system would be a lot more user-friendly if there was a stored value card system with contactless bank card and smartphone payment acceptance like in London.
Singapore's feeder public buses (which are shorter services that run only from suburban town centres' to the suburbs' preiphery) also charge flat fares, probably as its unfair to charge distance-based fares as these buses tend to detour more
I've been generally very grateful for flat fares. In my experience, a lot of low-income people have to live far out because that's where the housing is (relatively) affordable to them. You may not like having to travel so far, but for many of us, you have to take what you can get. I know I've eschewed express lines for a slower ride on local and limited stop lines to avoid the higher fares of the fast lines. It kind of sucked, but you gotta do what you gotta do. A flat fare makes travel easy to comprehend, easier to budget, and you can make more spontaneous trips. When you have to ration trips to save money, it can make you feel trapped and unfree. At everyone in my city pays the same amount for a monthly pass so we can all travel however much and wherever we like. I do avoid the regional system, though, because it's far more expensive. Where it might have been faster, I take slower, less frequent, but cheaper buses. :(
And the "poor people live farther away" issue is also different from city to city. In LA, it's the other way around. The wealthy own suburban homes in the outskirts and have 20+ mi commutes into posh 6 figure salaries in office buildings in downtown, while, the poor live in apartments complexes within the city and they hold jobs like working for service sector jobs like Walgreens, CVS, McDonald's, Burger King, BestBuy, etc. etc. which are all within 2-3 mi where they live. LA even did a study that 60% of their riders have trips less than 5 miles. So the whole I idea of "poor people tend to live farther away" needs to be studied more if that is really the case or not. You might be surprised that even in NYC, the poor people who live in apartments in Queens, ain't flipping burgers at McDonald's in Manhattan, they're flipping burgers in the McDonald's in the neighborhood they live in Queens!
Singapore meanwhile has both its richest & poorest neighbourhoods in its inner suburbs e.g. Bt TImah (which is leafy) & Jln Kukoh (which is older) while the outer suburbs are more middle-class, but the gov't is encouraging us to live in more outlying areas by building more public housing there, probably so that those areas can be populated rapidly to justify building more facilities there e.g. shopping malls. Our distance-based fares follow a logarithmic curve i.e. the fare per km decreases the longer you travel, probably as its more egalitarian as longer-distance commuters may not do that out of choice e.g. our workplaces may be in outlying areas as we practice more decentralization, sometimes on the other side of town from where we live e.g. banks may have their HQ in downtown but their call & data centres in Changi Business Park near the airport instead, while some gov't departments e.g. Ministry of National Dev't have also moved out from downtown to satellite towns, to free up more office space supply downtown & make them cheaper. The current fare system is an improvement from before mid-2010, when the logarithmic curve used by it would reset each time you made a transfer, so it'd more expensive to travel the same distance with more compared to with less transfers
I think the problem with flat fares is that short trips and side trips or trip interruptions get very expensive, which can be mitigated by setting a low daily/weekly cap making incremental trips free or cheap (eg. 2 trips = daily cap like in Chicago Ventra or Melbourne Myki). Distance-based systems these days can be solved by tap on/tap off systems that compute the fares for you and apply the appropriate caps. I think the Sydney Opal system is one of the best examples of a well-implemented distance-based pricing structure that is better than London Oyster in a number ways: 1. Single cap for everyone (not zone-based caps) for better equity, 2. Transfer discounts between modes, 3. Trip interruptions of
In Berlin you can use "Kurzstrecke". This is a less expensive ticket for short trips (3 stops on U/S Bahn or 6 stops on a bus).
Chicago's CTA fare does include 2 free transfers but it's limited to 2 hours after the first tap, so once those 2 hours pass (or you make more than 2 transfers that are not free transfers between L lines) you have to pay for another fare. But after the pandemic the CTA lowered the price of its unlimited ride passes and they've kept them at the lowered prices so it's actually reasonable to get a 1-day, 3-day, 7-day, or even 30-day pass depending on how often you take trips on the system
I understand the ability for cards to auto calculate fare by distance, my issue is more that this system is hard to understand and anticipate the price of for a passenger.
@@RMTransit Its even hard for the transit agency to predict. Remember, not everyone has a credit card. In such systems prepaid tickets usually require the customer to make a deposit in case a trip gets more expensive than expected.
This is a barrier for poor people. The operator must pay back the deposit once a customer doesn't use the system anymore. That needs support and adds additional costs.
That’s easily solved by time based free transfers. Toronto is a flat fare but we have 2 hours for unlimited transfers so stopping to grab groceries on your way home is very doable and easy. You don’t tap off, only on, and as long as the time is within two hours of the original tap you’re good to go.
The backbone of the fare system in Warsaw is the long term pass, which costs about 23 USD per month (single ride tickets are absolutely not worth it, unless you're just visiting or using the network very sporadically), combined with the unified ticket within city limits (i.e. you can ride suburban trains without buying another ticket). There are only two zones: inside the city and the outside. The great thing about this system is that although there is a fare, it feels as if it was free. these days I work from home so I don't really need a pass, but I still have it, simply because it means I never have to think about tickets and I just go wherever I want.
Adelaide Metro offers 14 and 28 day passes but they absolutely don't work for single people because they are only economic if you travel every weekday. If you work from home at all, or y travel off - peak or have a public holiday in there you are better off with individual payments. It's ok for couples or families in theory because the pass can be used as a family ticket on weekends but you'd have to use that.
Same with many ex-soviet eastern European countries, I suppose the price was adopted to be cheap since travelling cheap has existed for years during the soviet-states.
In my city zurich where zonal fares are charged, we also have a "kurzstrecke" (short trip) ticket option that let's you ride 2km from the station you're entering and it ignores zone borders so you don't have the problem of paying for 2 zones when crossing them only for a short distance
Same goes for Munich
To be fair, pretty much any trip in Zurich is a Kurzstrecke compared to any bigger metropolis... There's hardly any distance within the city borders that you couldn't walk...
Also, stations on borders of zones count for both, further reducing chances that you run into an unfortunate "edge case".
e: And by "count for both" I mean "to the advantage of the costumers", so you pay the lower fee for the trip you are making from those "border stations".
@@bibliopolist i think only the people in the old town walk, many take transit instead of a 10 minute walk
These short trip tickets also exist in Berlin.
you can have BOTH zones and flat rates in the same system. Like zones, built up as rings around downtown, but you can also have e.g. day / week / monthly tickets either for the entire city, or just the downtown area. Public Transportation Authorities can also offer combined offers, like group day tickets for the entire network, or other discounts like job tickets, school kid and students tickets, weekend tickets, state tickets etc
Interesting!
I think the best way of doing these systems at the same time it's using flat fares for subways and zone based fares for suburban rail
@@mosaloquendo That is exactly how it is in Moscow
It’s not too much different to how a lot of Australia’s major cities do it - you can buy a card to tap on and off for each trip, but in some cities, you can also buy passes if you know you’ll be a regular user, which saves money long term
@@mosaloquendo flat fare as in?
Since we have one nationally integrated ticketing system, transport providers in the Netherlands use a base rate+distance based rate for almost all public transport. The base rate is also nationally standardized.
That's too simple. People want complicated zones and different rules for every city and every mode of transport so they can argue.
Nice to see that Berlin really gets to shine in your videos :D To be fair, most people visiting are only ever going to see the two inner zones, though, which are covered by the "default" fare, so it basically feels like a flat fare. But as you said, anyone staying for more than a couple of days is going to get a pass anyway, which is a much better option. And the transition to the third zone for trips outside the city makes intuitive sense. Unfortunately, the non-metropolitan Germany is infamous for its stupidly complicated zone based fare systems, with illogical "jurisdiction" borders and non-transparent fares... which is why the new Deutschlandticket is a huge relief! Basically the first change in decades that has made at least some people drive less.
Hi, London does have period passes, weekly, monthly and annually. Also, wether using Oyster or just your contactless card, both daily and weekly fare caps apply, so you get to a point whre any extra journeys cost no more money, even though you still have to check in and out.
with weekly, monthly, annual Travelcards on Oystercards then providing you stay within the zones you paid for you do not have to use card readers at open stations ... I never did! Things work slightly differently if you do not have zone 1 on your Travelcard as for some journeys you may need to use pink oyster card readers and in this case it might be better to use card readers at each end of the journey
The capping costs upwards of over 200 pounds for literally 6 zones a month for a 700 square mile radius, Île-de-France (Paris state) is like 74 pounds for 4,600 miles! Whilst only tram and bus fares in London cost around 100 pounds.
I think as long as there are daily, weekly and monthly fare caps that are reasonable (for example, like the average cost of 2 fares as a daily) and subsidise and incentivise non-commuting trips, I don't care what fare method is used.
I have a lot of sympathy with this view, provided all transport modes charge similar fares and the capping applies across all modes and all operators.
IOW: you want a "flat fare" for yourself but want to zap the occasional user. OK.
@@Fan652w Portland is flat fare but does this, $2.5/$1.25 for 2.5 hour ride/transfers, $5/$2.5 daily, and $100/$28 monthly (normal/low income-senior-youth). Same pass applies across bus/brt, streetcar, MAX (lrt) and WES (commuter rail). The only time you pay more is when crossing the state line into Vancouver but then it caps at $7.7 daily and $125 monthly and includes all of Portland transit still. Ideally we want to get the entire state to use the same card payment system (hop) along with Amtrak for the cascades line but there’s still a lot of work left for that.
@@Evan-cu7kp Thank you for an extremely informative reply. I agree with you aim of getting the whole of Oregon on to the same card payment system. Bu for that you need to persuade every public transit system in the state to fit card readers.
As someone who's lived in Berlin for 2 years (and DYING to go back) I LOVE how this CZcams channel is basically a Berlin Public transport fan account.
as a frequent public transport user my favorite tickets are daily/weekly/monthly/yearly flat rate tickets (for a defined area). I even have the yearly flat rate ticket for my whole country and it is just so nice to be able to hop on and off trains/buses/trams/whatever for short or long journeys without having to worry a single second about how much it's gona cost me or if I have the right ticket or stuff like that.
If I'm on vacation somewhere I usually get the (multi-)daily or weekly flat rate ticket if it somewhat makes sense because it's often times cheaper if you use it reasonably much but also infinitely more convenient.
Gothenburg has a zone system that is like Berlins but it also solves the zone problem (5:20), it has “double zones” which are zones that are part of 2 zones (A,B), if you live in them and you need to go in to the city centre (A) you only pay for one zone, same for if you want to go into zone B.
In Berlin you can not buy a ticket for just one zone. Either you buy AB (everything in Berlin city limits), BC (outer districts and areas around Berlin) or ABC (whole city and areas around Berlin). I think you could kinda say Berlin zone B is kind of a double zone in that sense.
@@Kossie111 in athens there used to be this for line 1 (the north bit, middle and south were the zones) and tickets were for either two neighbouring or all three zones. when lines 2 and 3 opened, they required the three-zone ticket. The two-zone ticket was later discontinues and now athens is a single zone(apart from airport, express train, certain buses and very outward suburban railway).
Makes me realize that Toronto transit, when you consider the two-hour transfer, is actually very affordably priced. Especially given its a city where bus transfers are vital in the areas outside the dense core.
Yup. A zone based system in Toronto would effectively be a tax on the poor who would not only have to take longer to travel mostly on surface routes but also cost more.
@@adorabell4253When Toronto had the zone fares the fastest way to a friends place was 1 bus, Subway, Bus, Bus. I went through 4 fare zones. The other way was 4 buses and I stayed within one zone the whole way. The 4 buses were on 20 minute headways and most of the time I had to wait 10-15 minutes at each transfer point.
“Riding the Piccadilly line from Heathrow to… the other station”
I immediately went to maps to check what it was and I wasn’t disappointed💀
Lmao no Cockfosters mention sadly
In Vancouver, Canada buses were switched from zones to flat fare a while ago while the SkyTrain still runs on zones, but they are relatively large. Distance based fares was studied but rejected.
I travel a fair bit and honestly the biggest thing I appreciate is when tickets are easy and don't require you to think about what kind of trip or ticket you need. The best systems allow you to just tap your contactless card directly (as well as the option of purchasing a loadable card too) and it just automatically calculates what to charge you based on trips taken, distances, transfers and any daily or weekly caps you might have hit.
Good systems also don't punish you for making transfers. If I have to change between a train, bus and tram to reach my destination, I want it to calculate the whole thing and charge me the same (or similar) to if it was just a single train that took me all the way.
Thank you so much for this video RMTransit! I've seriously been trying to answer this question for months to plan for a new light rail system in England, you just made the planning a little easier!
In the capital of Greece, Athens, we have the “Athena Card” (Athens + Ena (one in Greek)) which is a pass that allows you to use ANY mode of public transportation, from busses to the subway to suburban rail, with no extra charge! It’s extremely convenient and something that I never appreciated enough until I found out it’s not that common in outside Athens. It’s pretty cheap too. Around 30€ normally, and just 15€ for students! Tho Athens is a pretty small city compared to most, so maybe it’s what makes it work. Once you can’t to go outside the “greater Athens area” you actually get separate tickets with separate prices for different modes of transportation.
One thing I like about the model used in Toronto is that it has a time-based flat fare. When you tap on for $3.30, you can hop on and off transit for free for two hours. So you could hop on, bus to the gym, go to a uni class, pick something up at the grocery store, and go home on one fare instead of four.
However, I wish they would fix their pass system. It’s cheaper to pay for each individual trip than buying a pass, so no one uses the metropasses
The pitfall of time based fares is that if it's used on buses, then it would be on the whim of traffic conditions, if it's on the train, your TAP in countdown starts when you tapped in at the gate, and if by chance the train is running late, you could be wasting time at the station not moving just waiting for the next train to come.
@@kilojoule_kj oh true, but if one trip happens to take over two hours, you won’t be charged extra. It’s just that you can rejoin the system for free within two hours
Personally, I think Sydney has done a pretty good job with the Opal card system, you can travel on all 4 modes of transport across everywhere on the Opal Network, Newcastle to Goulburn in a day (Mon - Thurs) for a maximum of $17.80. The maximum you can spend in a week is capped at $50. You get 30% off transport fares in the off peak and Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays have a maximum charge of $8.90. It means if you have a weekend out, pop $20 on your Opal card and you can travel anywhere on the Opal system, Kiama to Lithgow and pay less than $20 over 2 whole days.
Growing up in a city where distance-based fares were the norm (DC Metro), I know the annoyance and pain of having to figure out how much $$ you need on your fare card and add it in a hurry while you hear your train rushing in the station. It was, frankly, a pain in the ass. Now, it's at least a flat fare after hours and on weekends, which is so much simpler and more hassle-free - especially when combined with the digital SmartTrip card. You don't have to think about it, you just go.
Which is the reason I generally fall on the side of flat-fare systems - if you want to encourage a population to turn away from cars and towards mass transit, you need to remove any and all barriers that will encourage people to say no to it. When you don't have to think about the cost of the journey, it makes it that much more easy to say yes. And isn't that really what we want people to do? Even if it's not 100% "fair" in that a long journey costs the same as a short journey?
The one pushback I can see as valid is the flat fare system encouraging overcapacity at peak times - that's certainly something to consider in situations like DC where trains were often packed at rush hour. The hybrid model of distance-based fares during peak hours and flat fares during off-peak hours seems like a decent solution to that problem.
Though in a perfect world, I personally would prefer flat fares all the time and significantly upcharged Express fares for trains making limited stops. While this currently isn't possible on the DC Metro, it's something I would like to see happen in the long run. For example, the silver line could be made a 1-2 stop trip from Dulles to Foggy Bottom by adding bypass tracks along the route, saving a considerable amount of time. Even if you double the current price during peak hours, I'd wager there would be enough people willing to pay up for a faster trip into town. In this situation, people are able to get equal base fares, but optionally pay more for a faster trip (which is really a different service/product - it'd be like offering commuter rail using the same trainsets as regular Metrorail).
OTOH end, I also grew up in a distance based system mainly Tokyo and most of my trips were other distance based systems in Seoul, Taipei, Hong Kong and Singapore. I didn't have any issue of figuring out how much I needed because the fares all started off low. The problem I see with the DC Metro system is that the fare starts off very high as if they really just want to rip short distance riders off no matter what. In our distance based system used in Asia, fares start off at $1.00 or less. Tokyo starts off at around $0.80, Seoul starts off at $0.75, Taipei and Singapore starts off at $0.50, HK starts off at $0.45. Because it starts out so cheap, and every increment is low, we don't care about how much it costs we just keep tap, tap, tap and when it goes low, we just charge it up at any convenience store and forget about it for a month or more.
Helsinki's zones were good overall. The zones seemed too small at first, but giving you 2 zones for one price made it a non-issue.
Helsinki is just generally great!
Dublin moved from a zone system on trams, and a "stage" system on buses that nobody understood, to a timed flat fare including free transfers between modes. There is also a single "short hop" fare available. This change was such a huge improvement.
As a tourist I found the ticketing system in London much better than those in Austria. In London all I had to do was tap my phone as I entered and left the stations. The system then calculated the fares for me.
In Austria I had to purchase a pass before I travelled. I had to know where I wanted to go on the public transport, how often I would use it and determine the correct pass. In Vienna I bought a 24 hour pass but then only used it for one trip on a tram. I wasted my money.
As for zones, I live in Melbourne Australia. It's a zone based system. The annoying thing is when I want to do a short trip it costs me AU$5.00, the same as if I wanted to travel from one side of the city to another.
I quite like WMATA's current setup in DC. Fully distance-based fares on the Metro during the day, but becomes a flat $2 fare in late evenings and on weekends. Trips during the day are mainly commuters from VA and MD, while residents of more central areas aren't nickeled and dimed for taking transit to places besides work. And free transfers with flat fares on the well-developed bus system are a great alternative for shorter trips during peak times.
There is one thing id change. When I was in DC taking the metro. I ordered food and picked it up on our way back to the hotel. Within 10 minutes we were back to take the train and had to pay yet another fare. This type of situation should not cost the user more money.
@@john-ic9vj When did you take this trip? On a recent metro journey, I only had to pay one full fare and then each subsequent trip within 2 hours was $2 discounted, making my station hopping practically free.
My city has an orthogonal grid, with the central zone being around 3x3 of the smaller squares, so travelling inside the city is cheap, but on the suburbs, you cross a pair of zones on a short trip.
The problem I've found in Australian cities, is they're so far laid out that usually you end up paying for two zones no matter what, which instead of like $3 is like $6, so for people going to work or education everyday, that can be like $60 a week, which many students cannot, or can barely afford
It's obviously a much smaller system (and city) than those of London or Berlin, but I love the beautiful simplicity of Vienna's fares: An annual pass costs 365€ (or 33€ monthly), and it gives you access to all public transport. That's it! No zones, no faregates... It's little wonder why public transport takes up so much of their modal split!
And remember now that the rest of Austria has in effect, with the Klima Ticket, copied the Vienna example. (365 Euros a year for one province, 1095 Euros a year FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY.)
I would've loved to see an analysis of the Prague zone system, it's kinda like berlin, except not.
Just Prague or the whole PID ?
@@Dqtube Well, all of PID (obviously)
Bejing uses a modified distance based system kind of like a zone system in a way. It takes into account how fare your journey is from the station you start at in chunks. So its 3CNY for under 6km travelled, and then 4 for 12, 5 for 22, 6 for 32, 7 for 52, etc. Basically for long distances, you can travel a greater distance for just 1 more CYN than short distances.
The Netherlands abandoned the zone system about ten years ago and each Dutch region had its own public transport payment system.
The Netherlands, now has one public transport card that is used for train, tram, ferries, bus, and bicycle, and the journey is paid per kilometer. A fair system, a traveler pays for the distance travelled.
The basic entry rate is €1, after which a fare costs between 0.10 ct -0.30 ct per kilometer. In the big cities you pay more per kilometer than in the countryside.
Travel is also 20%-40% cheaper during off-peak hours and seniors and cardholders receive a 40% discount. Dutch students travel for free.
That is why travelers must be checked in and out on Dutch trains, ferries, metros, trams and buses. The system can calculate the distance traveled to determine the fare.
This is an absolutely brilliant video! I agree with almost everything you say. The key to getting people on to public transport is not flat fares but 'affordable passes'. I would add that those passes must cover all operators and all modes. Here in ENGLAND (not the rest of the UK) there is currently a government subsidised flat fare of £2 on most BUS routes.. It does not apply to train, tram or boat routes. Worse still, the two pound fare DOES NOT ALLOW TRANSFERS between buses. So a long 30 km journey on one bus costs £2, but a short journey of 5 km involving two buses costs £4. One clarification. London does have weekly and monthly passes.
or if you are going use more than one bus in east sussex get a dayrider for £5 valid all day on all routes that starts or finishes in east sussex
@@londo776 good for east Sussex! Most British counties do not have such an arrangement.
@@Fan652w £5 seens to be the price in all stagecoach areas
The last thing we need right now (A least in Canada) is more reasons to limit where you can live. If living in a different zone is cheaper then they shouldn't be punished with higher fares. I'm all for a flat fee with daily/weekly/monthly limits. Setting limits like this basiclly gives you monthly passes but if you don't use it for a few weeks do to working at home or visiting family or the like you save money.
Toronto does not define Canada .... Montreal s monthly pass is $97 .... Toronto is $156 .00 ... Be specific about what is Canada for you. Toronto is not interested to learn about any better city in Canada . Toronto is the worst city in Canada from urbanism, public transport , crimes , homeless, quality of life , racism, and no canadian values .
I think the best fare system is that used in the Saint Denis trolley network in Red Dead Redemption 2.
No fare mechanic was put into the game for it, so you can just hop on and off as suits your convenience.
For Berlin @RMTransit, you have passes, a ticket for short trips, and the cards for the zones, but one card feature 2 zones. So, when you by a card, you can chose for city centre and inner suburbs, or inner and outher suburbs, or all three zones, and every "normal" card is valid for 2 houres.
To me, distance/zone-based fares always felt farer than having a flat fee, especially if you do a mix of short or long-haul trips. I feel that flat fares tend to disincentivise the use of public transport, and force you back into the car because it doesn't feel like you're getting your money's worth unless you're doing a much longer trip. I think it's interesting to compare Sydney and Melbourne, where a short one or two station trip (which in Sydney can equate to 15-20 min of driving), would cost $2.80 off-peak, the same trip would be almost double in Melbourne. Interestingly, the maximum distance trip one could take would be $5.35 in Sydney, making it only marginally worse than in Melbourne. However, I agree that the zone based systems can be more complicated, but in the case of Sydney or London, that is not really an issue with how the faring is calculated automatically. Berlin, on the other hand, I found myself constantly questioning whether I had bought the correct ticket for the correct zones, and in that case, where the user has to decide which ticket to buy, it can be needlessly complicated.
Someone else in the comments also mentioned time-based fares (choosing 30, 60, 90 min etc.), which are also much farer than a flat fee, but have the downside of being stressful on a less reliable network.
Ours in Portland are time based (2.5 hours for $2.50), but cap at $5/day and $100 a month, and they apply across all systems (bus/brt, lrt, streetcar and commuter rail). It’s about the least stressful to the rider as possible without going free at point-of-access. The majority of our funding comes from a tiny payroll tax charged to all paychecks in the regional government boundaries though, so we don’t have to hike our fares as high as other systems.
To me it’s the opposite. A flat fee incentivizes travel from car-dependent areas and reduces traffic in the busier core while inside the core it can incentivize people to walk between one or two stops instead of taking transit. It’s best when coupled with unlimited times transfers which let you hop on and off as often as you need so you can do a round trip on a single fare.
@@adorabell4253 a bit hard to do when the walking distance between stops is 45 min, but I get your point. It works great for cities with short distances between metro stations like Paris, but terrible for suburban networks with long distances between stops.
What do you think about a time based fair system, for example like in Prague?
You should've included Luxembourg fare system in the comparison.
I remember around 15 years back when i went back to shanghai.
Shanghai used zone systems for metro but they also operated buses as flat fare for those who want to save money and spend more time on travel.
I recently discovered that our local transit company offers a "beeline" tariff. You pay a small amount per ride, plus air line distance from start to destination. Transfers are free, i.e., train + bus counts as one ride. This is great, because their usual fares based on honeycomb zones are an absolute mess that nobody understand, and they make you pay extra whenever their routes are long and meandering.
So do you tap when you leave a bus then? Or are you saying you pay the train fare and then the bus is totally free?
@@pizzajona our trains are proof-of-payment, so you just hop on and your ticket may get checked underway. The "beeline" tariff is offered through an app that uses your location to determine the final air line distance. You start and stop your journey through the app. So the bus wouldn't be free, but you don't need to start another journey, which would cost extra. I don't actually know what happens if you travel back towards the starting point, but it should get cheaper.
VRR?
The disadvantage imo, especially in rural areas, is that you can pay significantly more for not having a stop near you and overshooting
@@feynaomi true, if you're unlucky it can get more expensive. Out of curiosity if there's anything to help with that, I just read their terms again, and they also check how much a ticket in their normal tariff would've cost, and you pay the lower price. There's also a daily and monthly spending cap, equal to their day and month passes, after which you ride for free, so you really don't need to think about what your best option is. Feels like they're trying to give everyone a fair shake :)
I have been in Tokyo the last two weeks, calculating the fares between the destinations was quite the bother. There was a shortage on PassMo and Suica cards, so people were encourage to use the app, which works only on Japanese phones... fortunately, we manage to buy tourist only unlimited metro cards, but nothing like that for the trains (at least not in the same price range). You better know were you are going and not make mistakes...
The lack of integrated ticketing is the big weakness in Japanese public transport. Contrast Switzerland, where the integrated ticketing is fabu;ous.
I second that, I have been in Geneva, we would just move seamlessly from tram, to bus, to ferry. We had a card, which we wear told to keep it on us just in case, and were really surprise we didn't had to swipe it anywhere at all. But that's Switzerland for you, plenty of money to get free transit for everyone...
@@Fan652w Last time I was in Zürich I took a sorta metro towards the city center, walked to the lake, took a boat, then did a tour of regional trains back to the city, and went back with a different metro. All within the same public transport ticket system.
Honestly the way it should be everywhere.
tbf, if you are in Tokyo with a SUICA, you can use that just about everywhere too. Nonetheless the peace of mind of not even having to consider whether something might be different is valuable, esp. in a foreign country.
Wow that's rough! The Suica card made it pretty frictionless to travel on the Tokyo train network. Don't even want to think about how our trip would have been without it.
The main thing I've heard about JR in general is it is EXTREMELY expensive, especially the Shinkansen. From what I've heard it's about half the cost to fly from Tokyo to Sapporo than it is to take the train, and since the Hayabusa Shinkansen only runs to Hakodate, you have to transfer and take a regional train from Hakodate to Sapporo.
London has some cross zone stations you can travel into from either side without entering the other zone, which helps.
It also has a breaking of the longer trip = more £ system. If you take a route around the centre and tap a pink reader it knows you've skipped the expensive inner zones.
There's also the secretish special fares for short hops between Z1 and Z2 where you get charged a Z1 single fare rather than a Z1-2 fare. They don't exist elsewhere as there used to be a £1.50 flat off-peak Z2-6 fare. Even without that, avoiding zone 1 (or going beyond 6) on TfL scales is pretty cheap anyway and so doesn't really need discounts
In Moscow, we use flat fare system for buses, trams, metro(subway), mcc. Most people like it, because it costs less than a dollar. But in MCD(suburban trains) there is 2 zones: city and suburban.
Also there are suburban buses where the longer the trip is the more you pay
Great video and explainer Reese! Two caveats about the MTA though. One: the MTA has fare capping after spending $34 or 12 rides in a week two: for the Long Island railroad there are now city fares which would translate into sort of a zonal system that you were talking about.
Not to mention LIRR has 9 fare zones and is quite pricey with 2 of their busiest eastern stations (Huntington and Ronkonkoma) being exactly 9 fare zones from Penn Station. Literally costs the same to take the super busy and quite frequent Rokonkoma train into NYC as it does to take the not busy at all and diesel powered Cannonball Express to Montauk Point
I think in Hong Kong, transit fare is much more complicated as different modes of transport are ran by different organization/ private companies. The MTR is "roughtly" distance-based fare where as the buses mostly changed a specific fare on each specific route.
When in comes to the actual fares between station A and B it is quite calculated. bus and MTR have to compete for passengers while making a profit, jounery between station pairs which are faster and more convenient on road, or on older lines with poor facilities the MTR charges a lower than usual fare trying to attract more riders; while some other journeys are faster on MTR or with no comparable alternative, they charges a higher fare because they can, capitalism you see.
The Octopus card is the key here:
on the mtr, people don't have to care if they are catching the $3.9 journey or the $53.0 journey before catching the ride, you just tap in and tap out
In the extreme case that you don't have enough money for the journey on your Octopus card (which occurs only for journeys >$45.0 which are solely border-crossing journeys), you can head to the ticket kiosk and top up there.
For the bus, to list an extreme example, the fares from Ting Fu Street [one stop after CBD2] to Hung Ngok House/Tan Fung House could be 5.6/6.4/7.1/7.2/7.8/8.1/8.3/9.4/9.6/9.7/9.8/10.6/11.1/11.6/16.2/16.9/18.1/20.1
in the evening peak with difficulty getting onto any bus
when you get on, you don't need to worry about coins as a tap of the card is everything sorted.
5.6 - 3D; 6.4 - 11C; 7.1 - 6P; 7.2 - 671; 7.8 - 80X 83X; 8.1 - 80; 8.3 - 89X; 9.4 - 89C; 9.6 - 38 40P; 9.7 - 40; 9.8 - 89D; 10.6 - 42C; 11.1 - 74X; 11.6 - X42C; 16.2 - 277X 74D; 16.9 - 277E; 18.1 - 62X 258D 259D; 20.1 - 268C 269C 277A
A really strange case is Yuen Long to Sha Tin, vs Tsim Sha Tsui. On MTR, going to Sha Tin is definitely longer, passing by Tsim Sha Tsui itself, but it was actually slightly cheaper. That is probably because it is competing with buses, that goes into a shortcut tunnel, while MTR is geographically making a detour
@@Joltzis yes i think this is exactly the kind of things that are rarely found in other cities.
(well one may argue London going via zone one is more expensive is similar; like z2->z1 is more expensive than z2->z2 on the other side of the map. But i dont think its comparable as 99% of the time it you cant go through the said zone 1 station (like east tsim sha tsui in your example)
@@hydrogenvshelium6851 but i think now a days almost all systems/city/region have their equivalent of octopus card or use contactless payment which is even more universal and provides that tap in tap out function
In London, it’s often useful to make use of the pink card reader and avoid zone 1, by using the overground for example
I think with a zone system it would be cool if a 1-2 station short hop was free. This could act as an incentive to encourage higher ridership and get people used to the system. To prevent cheating the system it would all be calculated when you tap off. This could also be used to prevent tapping on, off, then back on again by having a 30 minute timeout after tapping off (otherwise it would start counting stations).
Transit should be free- it's a public service that the public already paid to build and maintain. The more and better transit we have, the better our cities, societies, and economies will function.
I think he has a video on this exact topic. As with everything, it's a tradeoff. Free transit means that the service will be worse per taxpayer money because you can afford to run fewer lines and frequency. So it does depend on your goals. Usually, climate goals clash with equity goals in this tradeoff.
The problem is how do you define what public transport is? Sure city buses could be free, but what about suburban rail, or even intercity rail. For example, should I be able to get the train nearly 1000km from my city to sydney for free? it's all public transport
@@tazzer9 Public transport? Public services offering public routes for all on a national service.
Private transport? Private carrier. Not offering public services.
I'll try and make an example. In Sweden, SJ trains are private intercity trains, simply because the tariff area does not accept it, however, other tariff companies include the Oresundstag, and that is public transportation simply because the state tariff system applies.
It either should be free or subsidised like the D-Ticket, Országbérlet (Hungary pass), Lisbon/Porto metropolitan tickets, De Lijn (Flanders), Austria's climate tickets for counties. Month cards all cost around 40 to 50 euros a month and Austria is around 365 euros a year!
The Paris RER actually benefits little from the zonal system, since origin-destination (single-trip) tickets have to be bought from a station to another (not just from a zone to another; only exception is one can be a generic “Paris” (zone 1) station not chosen with the purchase)
Something you also don't mention is unzoned subscription fares, aka you pay for a period of time (not each trip). In Île-de-France (Paris region), all zone subscriptions were basically flattened to the same fare as the 1-2 (so 1-5 doesn't cost any more; exception is there's slight discounts for those not going close to zone 1 (municipal Paris)). Which means most regular users don't have to pay by trip nor by distance but only by time period
Flat fare now applies right across my entire state in Australia. This has led to yet another jump in regional/long distance trips, and was introduced to discourage car usage where possible. So now, you can travel from Genoa, in Far East Gippsland to Mildura, in the far north of the state, or roughly 1050km for just A$10 adult and $5 concession, just as long as both legs start on the same date.
I'm Victorian and never knew we had a town called Genoa!
It's down towards Cann River, well beyond Orbost and is served by the daily Bateman's Bay or Narooma bus to Bairnsdale that's run by Dyson's for V/Line
Modern fare collection has come a long way. When I first started as a Bus Conductor in London we had to know on-bus graduated fares with some zonal and weekday morning peak increments as well as zonal knowledge for Bus Passes and Travelcards. Once you got used to it it wasn't too bad.
On the Elizabeth Line, if you travel the entire length from Reading to Shenfield, it costs £31.30 peak / £18 off peak. I think that is the most expensive single fare on the network.
But there are daily and weekly caps. The daily cap for peak travel is something like £60, slightly less than two peak journeys, and the weekly peak cap is about £165, slightly more than 5 peak journeys. More importanly, they are slightly cheaper than buying a return journey or weekly pass, which is why nobody buys passes.
The bus however is £1.75 for any distance. In most parts of England outside of London, it is £2 for any distance unless it is a "coach" service. Coach services tend to have airline-style demand-based pricing.
Thanks Katrina for this. But it should be stressed that the £2 bus fare is meant to be a temporary measure to help people struggling with the cost of living. Bus companies are being compensated for the revenue lost through this very cheap fare. Not all bus companies are happy with the scheme, and some small companies are not participating. The scheme is due to expire in December 2024.
Privitization has certainly made UK rail a lot more expensive. Though I've noticed more and more rail franchises reverting back to state control, LNER, TFW and Trans-Perinne come to mind. Each being a different operator as well (LNER used to be Virgin Trains, TFW was run by Arriva, and Trans-Perinne was run by First Group, which you can always count on to run anything they get their hands on into the ground). With LNER considered generally the best rail service in the UK I think there would be riots if it was re-privatized. And Avanti West Coast is also technically state owned ... by Trenitalia haha (given how good Italian trains are, this is probably a good thing).
Here in Oxford us uni (Oxford Brookes) students travel for free on three bus routes (100, 400 and U5) and for the other routes (within Oxford city only), we only pay £1.50 flat fare
@@mrvwbug4423 Arriva is Deutsche Bahn, which is also state owned, although they plan to sell it to a private shareholder next year.
It should be clarified that the cap is a zonal cap. So if you make lots of zone 1-3 journeys one week and then a single trip from Paddington to Reading using the same card, you would be charged the cap for the zone 1-3 system, plus an additional amount to go to Reading.
I don't think the complexity of the distance based system is as challenging to solve as RM makes it out to be. For one, a lot of riders use something like google maps to decide what lines they should use to go where. So that same interface can do all the calculations and the rider can see and decide between different variables like cost and travel time all at once. And for your most frequent routes, you only need to make these considerations a couple of times at most before you decide on an option that works best for you.
Agreed, now that everything is digital, all the complexity is offloaded to computers. When I used this system in the Netherlands it always felt simple and fair.
@@MrKevinWhite The Dutch system proves that you don't need to calculate beforehand. You tap in, transfer if necessary, tap out at the end, and it calculates a fair rate based on the distance.
I remember when I lived in England, the tap out was also policed at big central stations fairly closely, which made it a bit easier to catch people trying to evade paying fares. Depending on where you stand on transit fares, this could be a good thing or a bad thing.
I liked how passes were when I lived in Japan as well. Basically, it was a pass that was unlimited with a cost based on the distance between my home and my school and my student status. In the zones between my school and home, I could do whatever I wanted at no extra cost. That covered most of anything I did for shopping, commuting, and a lot of socializing. If I wanted to go somewhere outside that, though, I would just have to pay a small fee per trip outside of that zone. Sort of felt like a combination of flat and zone system.
Sydney's tap-on tap-off system is distance based, but with daily and weekly caps, discounts on weekends, discounts for off peak. Covers all public transport.
Very low daily cap for concession fares.
Tolerates breaks in journey for an hour. If you need to know what it will cost, an app can tell you.
All round, seems fair and equitable.
Now we just need more transport out in the distant suburbs.
Victoria has one of the biggest flat fare zones in the world to travel from melbourne central to melbourne university by tram (which is 1km crown flies) you pay $5 or you could travel from bendigo to Traralgon by vline (which is 255km crow flies) and still pay $5, though travelling within a single outer zone is a $3.30 oneway and myki fares are capped at $10 per day
That's big. The entire Stockholm County (where I live) is one flat fare zone, but maximum distance as the crow flies is probably about 150 km.
@@stefansoder6903 technically victoria has multiple zones (incluing two in melbourne alone) but the way it's designed is a bit confusing, a one way myki fare is capped at just $5 ($2.50 for consession) and you never need to pay more than $10 per day, you also only have to pay ($3.30) if you start and end your journey in the same zone however this doesn't apply zone 1 where you need to pay $5 regardless of where you finish your journey.
Cockfosters! That's the northern terminus of the Piccadilly Line ;-)
In Lima, zones are usually defined by district bounduaries. The thing about Lima transit is that it is not integrated, so you have a guy who actually charges you based on where you tell him you'll go.
As an bus driver for TriMet in Portland - we used a flat fare with timed transfers. $2.80 for 2.5hrs of unlimited uses on all services, $5.60 for all day pass, $100 for a month pass
How about 49€ a month for ALL of local transit in your entire country...
Sounds like a great idea. I would love to see Italy and the UK implement this one day. (I say those two as those are my countries)
That said we do have a €49 ticket in Italy but unfortunately it only lasts for 5 days and it only covers regional trains (no buses, trams or metro). But it does allow you to see the whole country
@@gabrielstravels-discoverin7368 The downside of the 49€ ticket in Germany is that as I understand it, the state partly has to fund it, so it has already become a plaything of the yearly budget debates. It'll probably get significantly more expensive in the next years. On the other hand, even at say, 80€ it's still a good deal.
@@oliphant2848 I agree. The UK for example does have a rail pass but it costs roughly £870 and it's only valid for two weeks (we call it All Line Rover). And it's not valid on some intercity services in the morning peak Mon-Fri too...
@@gabrielstravels-discoverin7368That sounds like a bad deal. Expensive even if it is for mainline trains. (IC and ICE trains in Germany are excluded from the 49€ ticket.)
This discussion wouldn't even happen if transit were free
Free fare transit isn’t a good idea.
@@RMTransit why not?
@@RMTransitI am curious too why not, has this come up in a video before?
I would imagine it's more to do with the massive amounts of subsidy a government would be required to have in order to allow public transport to be free. Luxembourg does have free public transport however because it's such a tiny country, it's pretty easy to do it.
Personally, I'd love free public transport, but at the same time, I am aware that it's going to be so hard to do so (other than in tiny countries like Luxembourg) that it's probably better to have cheaper tickets instead.
Side note, uni students in Oxford (UK) like myself get free bus travel on 3 bus routes (100, 400 and U5), and personally, I love it. A good way to save money
@@gabrielstravels-discoverin7368 in my country government already subsidize partially public transport. So if already some of taxes goes into it but many people still don't think about it as a good way to travel so few cities or regions with countrysides (in total their population is around 2-3 milion) decided to cover it in 100% and make ticket free for local population or everyone (it depends on city). This ended in triple or quadruple numbers in passages withing a year. Now imagine how much less traffic there is. So this ends with spending more on public transport but overall less due to much lower maintenance on infrastructure.
Here in Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur), we dont really use a "zone system" per se, but we mostly calculate price based on distance/amount of stations from start to end of journey.
I like the fact UTA has both. On Frontrunner, it is a distance-based fare(kind of). You pay a flat rate for the 1st station, then 60 cents per additional station. Your ticket on Frontrunner covers you on the Trax light rail and the buses as well when you get to your destination as well. If you paid the flat rate for the bus ride/Trax ride($2.50), you count that as a transfer, and the $2.50 is taken off your Frontrunner ticket. That makes it so you never pay more than the total ride for Frontrunner no matter what. Seems complicated at first, but once you get used to it, it makes sense. I also should mention we offer passes as well. One thing I really like that is not advertised much is a group pass(sold at ticket machines). For $15, you can use almost every mode of UTA until the end of service that day for up to 4 people. There are other types of passes as well, but I really don't want to waste everyone's time explaining them.
When I lived in the NYC area, most regular subway riders that I knew had a monthly pass anyway. In DC we have distance based fares, but we also have monthly passes for a particular distance (the monthly pass is 32x the individual fare). We also have flat $2 fares on weekends and evenings after 9:30 pm on WMATA in DC
Philadelphia does the NYC thing of flat fare for subways/trolleys/buses, and zones for the regional rail. It mostly works well enough although it would be nice if they shared tickets (the new passes have alleviated that though). The regional rail fare is still rather high for travel within a zone though, which is annoying when traveling between, say, the Center City stations which will cost you $5 when the exact same trip on a subway or bus would be $2. There have been pushes lately to fix that at least for the Center City stations, so hopefully that goes through.
Good video, I don't think I've ever really thought about the distinction between zones and Tokyo's absolutely distance system before.
In Wellington we sometimes have shared zone stops (ie Victoria University) where you get the lower fare between the two zones it’s sitting on (Zone 1/2)
What an interesting video. Never even thought about this before.
My home area has a comb system where the fair is based on how many combs you cover basically making the starting are the middle of a zone system
The city of São Paulo uses a flat fare across city buses and the rail network, currently at 4.40 BRL. Riders get 2 free transfers when using the bus and they also get a discount if they tap into the rail network within a certain time window after taking the bus. The exception to this rule are the intercity busses which are managed by a different company. They also use a flat fare, but each route has its own fare based roughly on the distance between the two cities.
Perth has fare zones radiating out from downtown, however from beginning of 2022 fares are capped at 2 zones. All trains , buses and ferries are free to use downtown known as the FTZ.
The old Melbourne train zones although not perfect had this interesting aspect that if you got on a train within 3 stops (could be slightly different basing this on memory) you could travel a few stops into the next zone before you would be charged for it.
9:38 Exactly! Getting the travelcard for London was only a no brainer when I still got the 30% student discount.
The local transport network attempted zones with a north, central and south zone with one zone or all zone pricing. They reverted to flat rate after about 3 years.
When they changed to the current ticketing system, they required a tap out, even though the fare system doesn't require it, in order to get more travel data.
If you don't tap out, you get an extra charge the next time you tap on.
A flat fare like the Deutschlandticket is an absolute game changer. Not just because it makes transit very cheap, but even for people who don't really care about the price: You won't have to know about pricing schemes etc. - you can just literally get on and off as you want, without having to think.
This is especially helpful when visiting other cities. OK, but tourists aren't really the core target market - OR ARE THEY? Aside from the fact that major cities get millions of tourists a year, every car-person is essentially a foreigner to the public transit and fare system. And those are the people who need to be converted to public transit.
I remember a trip to Dublin I took recently. Figuring out the transit system was bad enough, with multiple operators for buses, trains, trams… - and then buying the damn RFID card I needed was made needlessly hard as well. Talk about barriers to entry! People don't care about the inner workings of transit (watchers of this channel excluded), and we shouldn't make them have to care.
I live in Jämtland, a rural area of 54 000 square km. The area previously had fare price per km but will now adopt a zone system with nine zones, with the central zone covering an entire small city (Östersund).
We currently have the €49 ticket in Germany, it's a monthly pass that's valid for all regional bus and rail serviceses, so it doesn't really matter anymore in which transit zone you live. The ABC pass for all three zones was more than double the amount.
The reason this one is more contentious is probably more one the fact that, for elevated vs underground and pretty much every other debate the answer isn't one or the other but rather "it depends" but for pricing schemes, you need to settle on an answer.
Here in Tokyo we have essentially a distance based system where the fee is a base price ~160 yen plus an increase of ~40 yen every 4-5 stations. If you are paying with can you will need to check the map to understand how much are you going to have to pay, and if you get it wrong you will have to pay the difference buying a second ticket at the exit, however most people don't pay with cash, we just get a transit card and put money there, then tap at the entrance and exit and done. The computer calculates your fare so we don't even notice the downsides of the distance based fare
Note: I am taking about JR lines, because we also have many local government ammoniated lines and also many belonging to private companies. They operate very similarly to JR and you can use the same transit card in all of them but they make the fare system much more complicated because everytime you use a track belonging to a different company each company will also charge you the base fare for their line.
So for example of you take a train from Fudomae (station of the Tokyu corporation) to Shirokanedai ( Station of Tokyo metro) you will have to pay essentially 2 tickets one from Fudomae to Meguro (1 station away) and one from Meguro to Shirokanedai (also 1 station away).😢 Using tracks of different lines becomes expensive pretty quickly.
The good but also bad thing is that you don't need to change trains to go between these 2 stations, even though you are changing lines, you don't need to change trains, because in Tokyo many of the train lines are connected and the train just continue is journey thorough the other company's line.
One thing 'keeping me up at night' the past few days is the question:
If you have a simple railway line, not too busy, one rail track going one way and another the opposite way.
What would be the best railway station, one platform between the tracks or two platforms on each side, each servicing one direction?
One benefit of zones I like that they have over distance based is it encourages specific routes. E.g. in London you get a cheaper fare if you avoid travelling through zone 1, which encourages people to take alternate routes and attempt to ease the congestion of the core of the network. Although in some instances it can be ridiculously longer to do so and stations like shoreditch high street charing people a zone 1 fare just for passing through it are a pain 😅
It is mildly ridiculous in my opinion to hit people with the zone 1 price for taking the overground from places south of Whitechapel to Highbury & Islington
There's a feature of the Melbourne public transport system that seems so obvious to me, that I'm surprised it didn't even rate a mention in the description of mitigating zone barrier problems, is overlapping zones. The CBD and inner suburbs are Zone 1, the outer suburbs are Zone 2, but the middle ring of suburbs are zone 1&2.
The effect is similar to requiring a higher minimum number of zones on a ticket, but it's not exactly the same.
Love the use of, "the other station"
I think distance based fares aren't necessarily that difficult to figure out compared to zone based systems (as long as there is a map with fares listed) particularly if there's contactless payment as a default.
Melbourne has gradually "de-zoned" over time. When I was a kid there were 3 zones. Zone 1 (Inner City) being most expensive, Zone 2 (middle suburbs) and Zone 3 (outer suburbs) being cheaper, but obviously a Zone 1+2+3 ticket which you would need to commute from an outer suburb to the CBD was the most expensive, which was really quite unfair because the outer suburbs are generally the poorest and most disadvantaged. There were always crossover zones, usually consisting of 3 stations that would be Zone 1+2 or Zone 2+3. That means if you travel from one of those stations, you only pay for 1 zone. Eg. If you live in one of the Zone 1+2 crossover suburbs, you'd only pay Zone 1 travelling to the city or Zone 2 travelling away from the city.
At some point about 20-25 years ago, Zone 3 was scrapped, making it just Zones 1 & 2.
Then they basically 'de-zoned' by making Zone 1 cover the entire metro area, so that prices were capped at a Zone 1 fare. But so as to not disadvantage people who live in Zone 2 and only need to travel within that zone (which is cheaper), Zone 2 still exists as an overlay too, and if you only travel within Zone 2 you still pay a cheaper Zone 2 fare. But if you travel into Zone 1, now you only pay a Zone 1 fare rather than a Zone 1 + 2.
Most recently, they even scrapped regional (in Australia that means "country" or non-metropolitan, rather than suburban) fares in Victoria and made Zone 1 cover the entire state now, so the maximum daily fare across the entire state - even if you travel 3 hours from inner Melbourne to a country town 250km away - is only A$10. Regional/Country fares for local buses outside Melbourne, which were cheaper than Zone 1, still remain cheaper too. It's just that prices are capped statewide at a Zone 1 fare now.
Over here (Belgium) TEC has a €12/year subscription for 18-24s, 65+s and those with low revenue... and it's valid for their entire network (which spans over 15k km², mind you!)
Add in timed fares, where you get on/off the system as much as you want for a 2 hour period for one fee. Great for doing shopping/lunching in different areas.
Montreal's new fare zones are so frustrating.
The CBD of the region is so close to Longueuil and Brossard to far-flung suburbs like Baie-D'Urfé or Rivière-des-Prairies, yet it costs $4.50 (soon more) for the formers to get to the CBD and only $3.75 for the laters.
Also, there is no fare for ONLY zone B or ONLY zone C, which means that using the metro or the train or the REM for only one or two stations within North or South Shores gets so much more expensive than someone crossing 10 train and metro stations within Montreal's Island.
I agree completely, the system needs a LOT of tweaking.