What VIA Should Have Done
Vložit
- čas přidán 7. 12. 2023
- High Frequency Rail is not a pragmatic solution, even if you’re trying to get bang for buck.
Extra Content: / paigesaunders
Mastodon: masto.canadiancivil.com/@paige
Peertube: video.canadiancivil.com/a/paige
Get On The Fediverse! fedihost.co/
________________
References & Sources
________________
Draft Route: drive.google.com/file/d/15JeL...
[1] emerging-europe.com/news/uzbe...
[2] croa.com/PDFAWARDS/CR3044.pdf
[3] www.viarail.ca/sites/all/file... $12.5 million in 2007
[4] docs.google.com/spreadsheets/... no crossing exceeds 100mph = 160,934 kph
[5] 152 on the sub-branch from Ottawa to the CP line, 30 on the Alex branch between CP and CN, 14 on CN until the island, 2 on Ile Perot, 4 on Montreal
[6] www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2... 5 crossings 387 million = 80 million
[7] goo.gl/maps/rWKDBQjzW1SE742h7
[8] web.archive.org/web/201107062...
[9] drive.google.com/file/d/1-j2i... 2:27 “we’re talking about Toronto Ottawa Montreal, not the fullness of Quebec Windsor... strictly Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal as the first phase to profitability and then expansion by other generations”
[10] www.pppcouncil.ca/web/Events/...
[11] www.thestar.com/business/econ... “VIA Rail is looking at raising $3 billion in private investment to buy and build its own dedicated passenger tracks from Toronto to Ottawa and Montreal”
[12] corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects-...
[13] www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/rel... 3.69 billion
[14] montrealgazette.com/news/queb... Costs 6 billion now, but that’s not true
[15] www.viarail.ca/sites/all/file... “Purchase of 10 miles of rail to the easy and west of Ottawa station from Canadian National and Canadian Pacific”
[16] CP line is 26km, CN is 31km.
[17] Cp line to island: 8 crossings. 30 VIA + 14 CN (Then 6 on the Ile perot + Mtl).
[18] docs.google.com/spreadsheets/... (OTT-MTL leg)
[19] QGIS
[20] $55M per km
[21] Counting from alexandria junction branch to the Casselman cutoff corner
[22] 17 on CP, and 4 new ones. Now at 84 crossings.
[23] Ottawa to new line (48), new line (4), CP to Alex Junction (17) Alex Junction to Islands (8) Perot (2) Montreal (5) = 84
[24] 17 private crossings, 30 merged.
[25] Confirmed, 17
[26] farmtario.com/news/farmers-fe... famers being pressued by CP
[28] 18 Ottawa - New Line, 2 new line
[29] 20 crossings x $80 million = 1.6
[30] media.viarail.ca/en/press-rel... 30 million each a few years ago, 30*5
[31] The crossings are rated to 60mph = 96kph for freight
[32] 71
[33] goo.gl/maps/Xyuhh8oDCi4Q3vsWA
[34] www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/fr/...
[35] 1.6 billion (VIA Crossings), 0.175 (Trainsets), 0.66 (Cutoff)
[36] 10 Between cutoff and islands, 7 on islands
[37] www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/rel... 3 billion 2015, 3.68 billion 2023. But construction is much higher than consumer price inflation over that time.
[38] 17 x 80 = 1.360
[39] 176 x 6.62 = $1.161
[40] 25km * 55 = 1375 million
[41] docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
[42] www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/... 4.3 + 1.5
[43] 40 million / 6.5 million
[44] 18 x 55m - 990 million.
[45] 6.62 x 176km = 1165,12
[46] 550 km / 200kph = 2.75 hours + 0.5
[47] www.railwayage.com/passenger/... “There is more of an opportunity for growth than there is a risk of downsizing, he told Railway Age during an interview in his downtown Montreal offices, a few subterranean steps away from the city’s cavernous Central Station.”
[48] media.viarail.ca/sites/defaul...
I genuinely believe that not a single VIA Rail executive has ever been on a train outside of Canada.
I'm gonna be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if a few haven't been on a train period
@@yukihong9726hahah yep, this is probably true 👏🏻
I don't think they've been on a train in Canada either
I have been out of Canada, been on trains in Canada and the Netherlands. Does that mean I have more experience on trains compared to than the current leadership? If so I would gladly accept a job there and make these changes. 😂
@@pbilk Canada, USA, Netherlands, Sweden, France, Israel, Ireland and UK. I should be an expert.
Can we please just make Paige the CEO of Via already?!
Seriously... Enough with the disimpassioned bureaucrats running VIA into the ground...
Yes Please!
Agreed! Make Paige the CEO of Via rail after the current Via president and Minster of Transportation is forced to go between Vancouver BC and Montreal on the current trains.
Then he'd finally realize that the executives at VIA don't have the power to make all the changes he is suggesting.
Railfans in Canada don't seem to understand how much VIA is boxed in by their owner, the federal government.
@@416to613That is true, but IMO they also aren't doing much about what they do control.
Reece* and Paige are the urbanist power duo that we need.
They both do a lot of good work, but Paige is polite, and Reese is a rude twat.
*Reece
@@etbadaboum Whatever, the guy's rude, so I'm not going to take the time to worry about how he spells his name.
@@juliansmith4295 Reece is rude?!
@@etbadaboum Yes. Sorry, I'll make this as short as I can:
After watching one of his videos, I made a comment about the shortcomings of stations in Vancouver (no shops or even washrooms). For some reason, he got very defensive, as if he'd designed them.
I replied, saying that was stating facts. Again, he went a little bananas.
I said something like, "OK, have it your way." and he removed my comment.
Paige you should seriously reach out to the minister of transport and try to get an inquiry commission going into that giant amount of spending on staff. Absolutely ridiculous for a taxpayer-funded org to be so ignored by the government that's giving it hundreds of millions of dollars each year
VIA‘s Annual Report 2022 shows total Operating Expenses of $676 millions. What is so outraging for an intercity passenger railroad to spend 11.5% ($77 million) of its operating costs on „station and on-train staff“?
@@BigJoe0815 I can't find your 77 million or 11.5% numbers in the document you mentioned.
@@_human_1946 It‘s mentioned at 15m28s in the video. It‘s the basis for his final rant…
I don't care that I only ride Toronto-Montreal, improving their actual owned infra as a proving ground like seen in this video is the only way this makes sense
And then when they do that and it inevitably becomes the single most popular way to get between Montreal and Quebec City then they basically have to do that for Toronto to Montreal
plus it still speeds up the train between the two if a bit under half the route is a ton faster
@@auroraiskindacool
Upgrading OTTW-MTRL would also benefit OTTW-QBEC on approximately 40% of the route, but not TRTO-MTRL, unless the detour via Ottawa becomes faster than the direct way via Cornwall…
This is brilliant, no one has talked about tackling what is arguably the lowest hanging fruit that also has an outsized impact on Via's operations and financial sustainability. I love it!
Google „Two graphs which might explain why Canada still has no High-Speed Rail“ and you will find me presenting the same routing when discussing (in 2015!) my Bachelor Thesis. I‘m of course not the inventor of the Monkland-Moose Creek connection either, because that was already proposed in the VIA Fast study (from 2002)…
Really love the graphic design you did for viavite awesome video like always
That was my friend Mathilde, yeah she's very good
Wow. The amount of data needed to show all those grade crossings and then effectively map how each one reduced travel time is really impressive. Great visual design.
It’s like something you’d expect the government to be paying to advertise to promote the project
Step 1: Google and find the „RAC Canadian Rail Atlas“.
Step 2: Make sure the „Level Crossings“ slider is activated.
Step 3: Zoom in to whatever Canadian rail lines you are interested in.
He even kept the same symbol the RAC is using to show level crossings („x“ in a circle)…
@@somethingsomething404 But they have... pie charts!
VIA Rail really needs smart people like yourself working for them on route planing because the current people do not appear to understand this stuff. I really wish they would work with CN and upgrade the Toronto to Montreal corridor because most of the route can be upgraded to four tracks. It isn't until you approach the Ontario/Quebec border where you see farm land coming right up to the tracks leaving no room for widening without buying land from farmers. I also wish Canada would ban the out dated wood rail ties. Many stronger ways to secure rail tracks.
i agree with upgrading the existing lines where possible and i like how you did not just say "oh we need to buy a whole field or land off farmers to expand" as a farmer i hear it all too often no respect for the hard working farmers and when in doubt screw the farmers.
@@kylewil12plays with today's technology, there is no reason for the dual tracks near the Ontario/Montreal border to be upgraded to quad tracks, destroying our farms in the process. CN and VIA both know where their trains are every minute and therefore can come up with schedules so no trains would have to stop and wait in order to proceed through that narrow stretch.
@@terryjohnson3294 I would love to read that report. Do you know where to find it?
@@andymcdandycdn6808 the problem is freight rail is running longer trains than ever and want priority
@@stoikiometry and if they stopped using 200 year old technology and start using current technology to secure tracks in place, freight can move quicker and without such long trains.
As someone from Gatineau who wants to see my family in Montreal more often, I love your plan!
In that case, the HFR it will be perfect! 👍🏼
Can this be played on national televisionn for fk sakeee pleaaaaseeeee ! It can't stay like this...
Gosh this rings so true for me and my partner.
We recently very recently took a trip from Ottawa to Montreal to San Fran. We showed up at Ottawa airport 2 hours early so we wouldn't miss the flight and then we sat delayed for another 1.5 hours!
When we got to Montreal we had missed our connection and were forced to stay that night at a sad airport hotel for 200$ bucks only 2 hours from where we lived.
It was a nightmare! YOW to YUL should not exist if we have prope rail connection!
PEOPLE if you like this video and their ideas please write to your local MP multiple times and link this video! Did you know your LOCAL MP might not even know this is an issue. I live in Surrey British Columbia and my local MP Randeep Sarai is completely unaware of the modern day issues. When I write to him he is intrigued and confused this is an issue today. This is the problem our local MP’s have no idea of what’s going on and are so far out of touch that they don’t see the greatness of public transit! Take it from me as a British Columbia I’ve written to my NDP provincial government and have seen many improvements from John Horgan & David Eby’s govt! They want to know what the issues that really bother us is but, let’s be real unless we tell them their so far up they won’t know it was an issue from the start. Push your rights to vote and your right to support from your local and provincial governments! We can not live in a bygone era where the staff do every single laborious thing! This video touches on all the points easily. We have the power as the new generation taking over and this video touches on all the points!
How do we show politicians this video? Seriously
VIA HFR is sort of like rehab. There's going to be a new corporate subsidiary and we're going to get outside help to run it.
We tried to make them go to rehab, but they said no, no, NO!
Brilliant analysis! We took the Eurostar return from London to Paris in 2019 and it was phenomenal. 305 kph on the straights, 150 kph in the English Channel Tunnel. My wife was dubious when I suggested it, but centre-to-centre service with fantastic transit connections from the beautiful St Pancras and Gare du Nord stations nailed it. We just finished a delicious lunch and were sipping wine (it was the premium economy section) and looking out at the French countryside and big wind turbines speeding by and she turned to me and said, "now THIS is civilized." I knew then that a service like that would go down really well in Canada for everyone. Just do it already, a fully electrified HSR service. Paige and Reese should be hired as consultants from day one.
I wonder if the higher ups ever see these videos and go "OHHHHH, that's SUCH a good idea! We SHOULD do that!!!"
My experience has been that « They » always see these videos. I hear about it often from sources. Their reaction is generally to wonder if the public will see it, if politicians will see it, if the current plan will be cancelled or changed as a result of public sentiment.
It’s seems very much to be processed as a communications concern. They’ll be wondering how they can « stop this sort of thing » from happening, if they can counter the narrative, tame the journalist etc, which is annoying because the problem is the problem, not that people have noticed the problem.
@@PaigeMTL I sympathize with your frustration that VIA seems all too blind to what seems to be so intriguingly simple and deceptively obvious, as you will find the same sentiments shared in my own social media posts prior to entering the industry in July 2015, including a small article called „Two graphs which might explain why Canada still has no High-Speed Rail“, in which I discussed a very similar project with almost the same routing (derived from the same 2002 VIA Fast proposal you apparently read).
However, if you want to challenge your opinions regarding whether VIA lacks the vision/motivation or rather the funding/mandate/ability to implement your suggestions, you are more than warmly welcome to join the discussion in the „VIA Rail“ thread over in the „Urban Toronto“ forum.
Greetings from Montreal,
Johannes „Urban Sky“ Urbanski
(former VIA employee in the Strategic Planning and Network Planning departments, 2015-2021)
Always looking to add sources and talk to people off the record and run stuff by, please email me through the email address on the account page or use the phone number there in signal. I do not use public forums when talking with employees of the subject of a video.
If you think the public should know something going on inside or proposed by a North American operator or owner these videos rely on numerous people in institutions reaching out.
Government: Let's renovate Toronto Union Station so that it'll be beautiful!
People: Great! Can we then board trains without lining up to be allowed onto the platform, and have level-boarding platforms so that we can roll our suitcases onto the train easily?
Government: ...Why?
With the US getting a large investment for HSR, maybe this will convince Canada and/or VIA to invest too.
Great video! Politicians in Ottawa really need to see this.
Loved this. I was shocked to hear about $80 million to remove each rail crossing just to take out some signs. But via rail is turning into an airline. They recently updated their baggage policies and the luggage at union station with the conveyor belt does give airport vibes. Im a frequent user on via and hearing about these adjustments just makes me think via needs to go back into being a cheaper option of travel.
a) I could have sworn I saw this exact video like a month ago. Liked it then, liked it now.
b) This should absolutely be what VIA does, and I hope someone in power sees this (like when I send it to them). It's way more fiscally likely, preserves the public carrier, and just as a note on the CPR line, they recently tore up the track on that line to make it single-track (edit to note not the section Paige was referring to, but further west. My bad). So the space is there right now to start laying new rail, no need to build out the ballast.
Absolutely Nailed It. Well Done.
Absolute bombshell at the end of the video. Best work so far!
Why don't VIA do this? Is VIA's leadership stupid or are they stuck in greed? I really hope your video becomes a reality. Including their culture change.
VIA's leadership has limited power and does what the government funds and directs them to do.
Their civil service positions and salaries are secure, and the rest means nothing to them. Via Rail executives don’t ride trains, they drive or fly when they have somewhere to be in the corridor. The deputy prime minister flies to Montreal where the same chauffeur who dropped her off at Ottawa airport picks her up again in the same car. What’s it to any of them what the rail service is like?
The issue falls not with Via's planners but rather with the Federal Government who doesn't seriously commit to any significant changes to their operations, so Via has to keep living paycheque to paycheque.
por que no los dos
Now watch what the new President will do, everything will move a lost faster. Unless the Conservative cut the future of VIA Rail.
Well said.
Do want to mention though that part of HFR was proposed during a time when the Class Is really did not want to work with any government agencies (Especially CP), so at the time it kinda made sense that VIA should focus on its own alignment. However, with PSR and a government more willing to separate ROWs entirely, it makes no sense to pick the slow windy rail alignment no one currently uses. Hell, you're better off either building a Japanese style fully grade-separated ROW on the existing alignment or doing strategic straightening on the proposed corridor and booting the Class Is off the mainline than what VIA is currently proposing.
12:00 Definitely, you nail it. Via Rail doesn't hold any political counterweight. I don't know if it is too difficult or it is Via C-level manager is too dumpy, but PR should be one of the Via priorities. Amtrak definitely understood it by opening more and more States funded routes instead of only relying on the federal government. Thus, further increase Amtrak ridership, popularity and positive public image. Via could easily make a partnership with Ontario to serve the northern communities, or NS/NB with Halifax-Moncton-Saint John line, AB with the Calgary-Edmonton line, etc. you name it.
Very interesting point of view, and very different than other's.
Fantastic ideas and analysis. Funnily enough the segment at the end felt almost “Strong Towns”-y, we see the same problem with cities - we’re afraid of investing and changing suburbs and instead keep expanding with the same inefficient sprawl not to upset the status quo.
I seen somewhere the reason VIA doesn’t build tracks using CP right of way is because CPKC believes that they have ownership despite it someone else builds the tracks. Which is dumb, but it shows due to Metrolinx usually works with CN more so than CP, and most VIA Rail routes run on CN rail that’s why the Canadian goes to Jasper - Edmonton - Saskatoon than it’s original route of Banff - Calgary - Regina. CPKC really doesn’t play nice with Canadian passenger rail but is able to negotiate and run service in the US and Mexico now. Hell it would’ve been so easy to quad track lines in the prarie provinces for dedicated freight and passenger line but alas it would run on CPKC track right of ways.
Simple solution to this problem: federal government passes a law saying rail right of ways can be used to build passenger tracks.
Not really: the Feds paid CN to partially triple-track the Kingston Subdivision between Montreal and Toronto and they overcharged the government, while clinging to property rights and dispatching control.
Also check where CP and CN stand on Amtrak’s scorecards for how cooperative its host railroads are (CP is 1st with A+, CN is 4th out of 6 with B-)…
I think part of the reason Metrolinx Go train mostly run on CN rail over CP is just due the the alignment. CN has/had more lines where they wanted the go train to go within the GTA. Also keep in mind, the entire metrolinx rail signalling system is run by CN, even though metrolinx owns a large portion of the tracks it uses. So its just easier to do most of it with one company then negotiated with multiple companies I imagine.
@@nickskier1 Exactly!
CP: Belleville Sub: parallel and inferior to CN‘s Kingston Sub (LW line, even though the former will still be used for the Bowmanville extension)
CP Havelock Sub: passes through 80km of depopulated landscapes before reachinging the first population centre beyond the greenbelt (Peterborough)
CP MacTier Sub: inferior to ex-CN‘s Newmarket Sub (Barrie Line)
ex-CP Owen Sound Spur: absence of significant population centres beyond Brampton
CP Galt Sub: already used by the Milton line, but 50 km population void between Milton and Cambridge makes extension unviable
What other (ex-)CP lines are there around Toronto?
Couldn't agree more with the entire content of this post. And, thank-you for it! Ironically, my best train ride experiences go back to the day CN (passengers) Rail days, when travelling between Toronto - Montreal and Ottawa in ‘’Club’’ cars and, even better, in TurboClub (less than 4 hours between Montreal and Toronto), was as efficient as exciting! I use VIA Rail, occasionally, between these cities, in a Business class that gets me very nostalgic of the CN days. I know, from some executives, that the airlines lobby, fiercely protecting their ‘’Gloden Triange’’ (YYZ YOW YUL), has been extremely responsive since the CN Turbo train days… It is clear to me that we are not about to witness the birth of a TGV service, within the corridor, in any foreseeable future, unfortunately.
This is brilliant! I'll share it everywhere. The first step is to acquire the land for the entire network, Detroit to Quebec City with a second line from Toronto to Buffalo. The build the Montreal-Ottawa high speed line, that should be called "Phase 1". Once Phase 1 is built, there will be tremendous political pressure to build the next phases.
This video is so well done I think it should be shared more, and probably sent to some deputies in Canada. I feel like it's not too late to improve stuff here...
Only issue is that this is too logical for VIA
"Finding the next fix instead of fixing themselves". Holy cow that is a great way to sum up VIA in a sentence
Neat idea. Crossings are a bit of hot point amongst us farmers now. The rail companies currently want to make us 100% responsible for the costs of maintaining and upgrading them, even though it is their rail line cutting through our properties, which were there first. Also buying/ expropriating fields on one half of a property is sure to rub most farmers the wrong way. Likely easier in the long run to put in better crossings w/ signal arms etc, assuming that is possible. A farmer has quite the connection with their farm!
For high speed rail, those signal arms and such are not good enough. Only bridges are safe for something to go through at 200kmph. Farmers have been selling land for ages, and VIA would be negotiating with each individual farmer for the best solution, while holding a big chequebook.
The railways have been there since the 1850's, it's not like they suddenly cut through farmers' fields yesterday. There has been 170 years for farmers to swap land if they want to consolidate on a single side of the railway.
@@tristanridley1601just, invest in simple underpasses? If it works for wildlife, it could easily be upscaled to allow farm implements a reasonable crossing
Or better yet, just trust in the farmers best judgement not to cross in front of a high speed train. If they’re diesel, they wouldn’t be too quiet
@@Abrothers12 Being a farmer doesn't give you superhuman sight or hearing. To safely cross a railway, you need to be absolutely sure that no train is coming in the amount of time it takes you to start up and get fully across the line.
A train going 200 km/h covers a kilometre in 18 seconds. If you're crossing the line in a tractor with a trailor you'd need to have perfect visibility for more than a kilometre up the line, and if anything goes wrong on the crossing there is a significant risk you will die. This is why level crossings are require extensive protection above 160 km/h, and are only permitted on 200 km/h lines with extreme fail-safe measures (lights, bells, inpenetrable barriers, obstacle detection). Farm crossings have literally none of those things.
Love it, Paige! It drives me crazy how content with mediocrity this country is.
I say the exact same thing all the time!
I blame the people at 3:05 all they care about is enriching themselves. Case in point: former via ceo
Before even building faster lines, they can start by having a cafeteria/bar car. It would reduce the number of staff serving on trains to one, while being a more enticing option that would generate more revenue.
VIA‘s only competitive advantage is customer service and most passengers prefer getting served at their seat rather than having to locate and walk to a some on-board food facility. If you prefer minimal staffing levels, take the bus…
VIA’s business soft product is really cool. There is free meal service.
@@BigJoe0815 I've been on trains with dedicated bar cars in Europe. I really think this feature would be a big seller, especially on longer-haul runs. By dedicating a little more space for food and beverage prep as well as some seating in said car, I think they'd come out ahead. Plus, if done right, it would add an experience that other modes (bus and air) simply can't provide, which could be a competitive advantage for many travelers.
0:58 Casually shows up to level crossing where LRC almost smacked a local freight 😂
The train is currently cheaper for a trip between Ottawa and Halifax when comparing an economy flight and a premium train ticket.
Great video but there is two potential problems about the CP Routing into Montreal, first at rush hour VIA would need to compete for track space with the slower and frequent stopper exo commuter trains with a couple of freight trains thrown in the mix, second ending at Lucien L'Allier would be crap for the travellers, you will need to either make a long walk or take the metro and the "parcours du combattant" to reach Gare Centrale if you need to transfer to a Quebec City / Toronto or Halifax train
It's definitively an interesting proposal especially since it doesn't involve Canada's largest city (though still two major cities: The largest of a different province as well as the country's capital). But it also shows the advantages of intercity tracks regardless whether they're high-speed or not (conversely, the existing tracks can be repurposed for a regional-ish transportation if only with some redevelopment of the settlements along the line) and add in some future-proofing (e.g. most of the line is build to 300-320 km/h speed, the few sharp curves aside) and you get a good prototype HSL.
In some ways, this reminds of CAHSR which involves an existing service (San Joaquins, Caltrain), build both lines out (the former in adding tracks to the existing tracks, the latter in terms of electrification, elimination of level crossings) even if the full potential isn't initially reached until later in the construction (Toronto-Montreal for this one, San Francisco-Los Angeles for CAHSR).
If you envision the Ottawa-Montreal corridor as something like the GO system how you justify it in my opinion is you use the rail line to build transit oriented communities along the line.
Imagine building dense communities that have industry, nature, and connectivity to major cities off of a rail line project.
I feel like they should fix the sprawling problem in Ottawa first with “LRTs” before some commuter rail business, tbh some call the diesel line of the O-train a commuter train like GO
@@TheRandCrews The status of the O-train has no bearing on whether or not Via lines should be upgraded. They are two completely different types of railway.
I send my hopes to all Canadians that think with first-hand logic, please, send this to your politicians or executives.
Greetings from SPAIN!!✌
Absolutely brilliant analysis of a better way forward on the infrastructure side of things!
When it comes to the staffing issues, I'm sure that any push to significantly reform this would be met with strong resistance from employees/unions and some politicians, because it would be seen as cutting jobs - and no doubt one way they would campaign against this would be to claim it would reduce customer service, to try to get customers to push back against management as well.
Which isn't to say that they shouldn't even try to reform these practices, or that they couldn't manage the process well (eg if they're expanding service levels, they could reduce staff per train and redeploy surplus staff to the new services, for no or minimal net loss of staff). But it's probably not that nobody in VIA Rail management has never thought of it, it's that it's in the too-hard basket.
And this is why we subscribe. Amazing video
Watching this from a painfully slow VIA train. Paige for VIA CEO.
I completely agree with this. I wish this could be done in the future
Honestly beyond this there is an easy way to balance things beyond Toronto-Quebec (which people forget is viable the three levels of government just can't get their act together to agree on), if the Toronto-Windsor route is upgraded you can balance that out with a spur from Drummondville to Sherbrook which would effectively cut the time to Montreal to that of Ottawa with such a network for the supercommuters currently using the intercity busses, and a (fairly cheap due to how undeveloped it is) line from Montreal to Troix Riviere that would also go a long way to helping the two VIA routes to Jonquiere and Senneterre that would mostly share it. Anything else can be balanced with improved trackage towards Halifax.
Delusional, overconfident, and bold. I love it.
ive been saying this for awhile, you could also easily add a phase two being london to toronto using a similar shared ROW with canadian pacific (maybe CN too) and metrolinx. having via's busiest line (toronto-ottawa) bookended by high-quality fast(ish) rail would really improve the business case for the same improvements there as well.
They really ought to built that CN Milton to Bramalea freight bypass along the 407 so they can actually run more trains through Brampton and Kitchener. Then they can improve tracks and get 200 kph trains to Kitchener. London being the next obvious choice, as it's all farmland so I'd assume it's easier than going through Burlington.
@@Mystro256Fun fact. Metrolinx, the one that planned this. Dropped it sometime before covid
@@GamingRailfannerwell it's a bit more complex than that. There's no political will to make that happen right now, so I don't blame them for dropping it.
The north route between Toronto and London via Kitchener is hardly ever used by CN, so they would have no problem selling it to Via or GO. In fact, of the 100 km that GO uses, CN has already sold 80 km to them. The problem is that the remaining 20 km between Georgetown and Bramalea are part of CN's mainline, so they would definitely not sell it.
Under the previous (Liberal) provincial government, the plan was to build a new freight line from Milton to Bramalea, which would remove CN's trains from those last 20 km. The current (Conservative) government cancelled that plan and instead plans to just add one more track within the CN corridor (for a total of 3 to 4). If we can build out the line such that there are at least 2 tracks dedicated to passenger trains through that segment, the remaining 170 km are a piece of cake, since they're already mostly owned by passenger railways, have minimal freight service, and a very straight alignment.
Great video! Love how in depth you got.
Thank you for making this video, as well making the solution so informative and clear. So clever
This makes a LOT of sense, get the high speed service will prove concept and get people 'on board' for expansion
This is a really good video, and great ideas. The only issue is there's a freight train that uses the tracks between les coteaux Qc, and Ottawa. They need to serve a spur in Maxville, On, and access to glen robertson where there is a branch line for CN.
As a Montrealer who has traveled back and forth to Ottawa/Gatineau at least 600 times in my lifetime, often by bus (when Voyageur existed with over 16 departures per day), a few times by train, often by personal car, or rideshare, my biggest questioning has been, with increasing urgency due to increasing travel time, traffic, construction etc. (and the Ile aux Tourtres bridge diminishing capacity) Why are the Montreal stations for bus/train, so centrally located when with a unified cooperative plan with VIA, EXO, STM and REM and OC transpo etc, we could have a proper -inter city- train station at the "terminal" station of the EXO/REM or you know, if I can fantasize even bigger, the REM go all the way to connect to the O-Train... and the same in the Quebec direction... The lack of imagination on transportation infrastructure is why we are now stuck with the 40 /117 always under repairs somewhere. the main bridge of egress on the point of collapse... the other bridges will now see a lot more traffic and will start showing signs of premature aging also... I like your ideas and the more we push on the connectivity of the various transports the better it will be for all. I mean if visiting my Mom only cost me 2 hours and no stress in each direction without breaking my budget, I might visit more often, which would save government money on elder care... IT IS all connected...
Great video! More people need to see this! Inspirational!
While I'm still a bit skeptical of the ideal way to run the the train from Toronto to Ottawa (or specifically Smiths falls), which includes your Perth to Belleville idea, you knocked it out of the park with in regards to the rest.
These videos are top notch. Thanks Paige for your hard work!
FRA regulations actually permit 200km/h running with level crossings if those crossings fully block cars from entering the tracks and the gates are strengthened.
To the best of my knowledge, no railroad in the US has bothered with implementing such “impenetrable barriers”. The effective limit for level crossings is therefore 110 mph (177 km/h), which is the same as in Canada…
@@BigJoe0815 Still worth testing them to see if they work. Most freight railroads and commuter railroads likely haven't looked into them since they don't need to go that fast, but on a medium speed line there would be use for such barriers.
If you have the money to go beyond 110 mph (177 km/h), you should also have the money to get rid of level crossings. It‘s just not worth putting up with inpenetrable barriers, especially because they still become a stranded asset once you upgrade beyond 125 mph (200 km/h).
Anyways, the discussion is moot for Canada because Article 29(a) of the Canadian „Grade Crossings Regulations“ make the construction of „a grade crossing if […] the railway design speed would be more than 177 km/h (110 mph)“ some kind of bizzare federal crime. This is coincidentally also the only acknowledgment of speeds beyond 100 mph (160 km/h) I could find in any kind of Canadian rail regulations…
The new President of VIA-HFR Rail said in recent interview, he often use the Haute Vitesse Train in Europe for business.
Great video!
I thought that the recently RFP set a minimum speed of 200kmh for the three private proposals for HFT? Great video regardless! I would disagree on two things though: 1) turnstiles. It isn't commuter rail. Free access to the platforms and two-three conductors per train, that way you can solve issues on the train without depending on the engineer. This would still greatly reduce numbers on VIA intercity trains. More local trains wouldn't need as much patrolling and could see mobile teams, just like on european local trains. 2) it isn't commuter rail. Comfort is still important, especially at 200kmh where you will get thrown around a bit. Instead of recommending commuter style bilevels, Corail style seats or even the old oceane TGV seats would do. The only reason they have been removed from modern bilevel trains in Europe is because of cost, but if you really want to skimp, you need 2 classes that way people know what they're missing out on. Most european rail users I know keep complaining that the new trains are really uncomfortable (In France and Switzerland). It's avoidable. Ultimately though these are minor issues. Capacity is key, and I would rather recommend the Swiss equivalent of high capacity bilevel intercity trains-though not the ones that killed bombardier 😂. Idk if doubletracking was mentioned in the video but in terms of capacity you'd probably need to doubletrack as well as everything else including electrification. Long term what could also be nice is to reactivate the M&O with curve realignements, bc it is already much straighter than the current line. One doubletrack line wouldn't cut it long term even if it has ERTMS etc. Overall great video!
- A Franco-Canadian railway engineering student and intern in switzerland 😀
1:13 "blowing past with loads".... Hilarious.... you must be Kiwi or maybe Aussie!
PLEASE people need to see this this is amazing!!!
Have they even started using the new trains between Toronto-Montreal yet? Like holy f**k.
You can catch it every Friday on Train #668 (departing Toronto at 18:02 and arriving in Montreal at 21:55). I took it last Friday and it was heartwarming to see how genuinely happy the passengers were to be on board one of the new trains…
This video should be reviewed by Via Rail executives, members of parliament, and executives at CPKC Rail. Kudos to you !!!😊
The CPKC execs only need to say "Does this create more value for our shareholders? No? Then we're not interested" and this whole proposal falls apart.
love your videos so much
I think you should double-check how many kilometres of track are actually owned by VIA. And where these tracks are placed.
1:56 Begin to remove these crossings somewhere and go on with a fixed number of removals every year-sooner or later it’s done !
The problem with Via is strong union that resists change, but in the end it would be great to see fare zones on the corridor like on commuter networks, using a Opus type card
I challenge you to name me three different intercity railroads from three different countries which do this…
Someone, get this video to the politicians. And make sure they damn well listen and learn.
This is so true. So brilliant.
What an incredible video, first I've seen of this channel but wow
Im honestly astounded at the mediocrity when it comes to transportation across this country, passenger train its the main example of this. Via needs to maintain and improve what it already has.
Holy crap a good idea! Lets commision 10 studies and never actually do it!
That's it BRAVO!
I am not an expert but it sounds like you have done some significant analysis that should have been done by VIA themselves. I thought with High Frequency Rail they would have a different staffing model. Have you proposed this to Pierre Polievre, maybe a private takeover using this model?
I’m afraid that unless you’ve read feasibility studies and business cases of hundreds of pages of length, you have very little chance of knowing what “significant analysis” means in the rail/transit industry...
also I was looking at the proposed allignment and I'm not sure they're really serious with it, it's a lot of like abandoned railbanked ROW that serves right now as just guy's backyards, and old track in the middle of a bucolic village, I expect a really intense level of nimbyism if they intend to turn this into electrified double track
Yeah if they want to use the old Havelock alignment between Toronto and Ottawa they will need to bypass a lot of it either because it goes through the middle of a town (such as Sharbot Lake and Tweed) or because it's a series of very sharp curves. The whole idea that they could achieve a 3.25 hour travel time on that horrible alignment was laughable.
Paige's idea is a heck of a lot smarter than what California's been doing building new HSR on greenfield alignment instead of sharing existing freeway or railway rights-of-way. His idea is similar to what Brightline did in Florida and is doing in California.
Except there is a HUGE difference between Brightline and CAHSR. CAHSR is _actual_ High-Speed Rail and requires its own infrastructure. It's expensive and time-consuming, you can't have it any other way. Brightline is just painting the same turd a nicer color. I mean, Amtrak has been doing the same thing for decades and nobody gave a shit. Suddenly a service that PRETENDS to be 100% private does it and everyone acts like it's the greatest thing on earth.
Thank you VIA Rail for making Amtrak look good!
Cool content, cool ending.
yes
What song is playing at the end?
I'm not sure why you always want to cut out the Quebec-Montreal link in the fast rail project. In my experience the Quebec-Montreal route is almost always full. Many Quebec government employees, especially directors, have to travel to Quebec city from Montreal and the train is the preferred mode of transport. That is without counting the insurance workers who also have to travel to Quebec from Montreal because Quebec city is the main hub for Quebec based insurance companies. The train is also filled with tourist or weekend goer who want to visit Quebec city and the region. On the other hand, every time I took the train to from Montreal to Ottawa it was much less filled than for Quebec. I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure a fast connection between Montreal and Quebec would absolutely works. The Quebec region has some of the best ski mountains in Quebec, awesome city vibe and from summer to fall you can catch the Charlevoix train from Quebec city to visit the country side. Anyways it's a great video and food for thought. Thank you.
In his previous video, he also wanted to drop Ottawa from the HFR project…
@@BigJoe0815 he clearly wants direct rail from Toronto to Montreal screw everyone else is what i get out of this he makes some good points but still wrong approach in my opinion. he wants to cut out rural stops as well. witch will not help solve the road traffic issues
In the same way, why include Ottawa. Useless to put a HSR from Montreal to Ottawa. it is too short to get the cruising high speed.
But the best HSR or HFR between Toronto-Quebec City, will get the best fast travel time is between Quebec-City and Montreal. (Source: Alstom)
Good comment @gianlucafantini1332 👌👍
The rural stop or the milk run, would be perfect for the HFR. Same thing from Montreal-Ottawa. @@kylewil12plays
The only thing I think you forgot was that going 300km/h for even just a few hundred kilometers would cut the travel time from Toronto to Quebec City by over an hour and maybe 2. Thats a massive time savings when European countries are doing capacity expansions for just a couple minutes for several billion dollars
Very true
I love this all around
It's so sad that after all this time? No real progress. What a metaphor for the sorry state Canadian affordable housing and public transit is in 2023... What I'd like is European-style TGV. What I'd be happy with at this point? Like the video says... 200 km/h sustained intercity trains... That's an entirely doable speed based on existing infrastructure and technology without the need for electrification or too many railway straightening projects... This would also get people between Edmonton and Calgary in about 2H 10M, 1H 40M if we bumped up the speed slightly to 240 km/h which was the Bombardier JetTrain design top speed... And of course the current Siemens Chargers on order... Alas...
PS, their solution for trains at 200 km/h according to the 2004 Van Horne study wasn't to close them but to upgrade them with proper European-style barrier gates to prevent any drivers or pedestrians from becoming a statistic... Only after this speed do you really need to look at full grade separation of lines... So that would really bring the estimated $80M/intersection down quite a bit... Need any more advice? Look at how Brightline is doing things in Florida... They are using Siemens Chargers at 200 km/h on that new stretch of track and so far so good.
Another banger!
Unfortunately VIA Rail only really serves the Quebec City to Windsor corridor where around 65-70% of all Canadians live. Anything outside that corridor is only given a minimum service to satisfy Canadian Law and the VIA Rail mandate.
While looking at your grade crossing doc file [4], I saw you counted a crossing on the tracks in the direction of Gare Lucien L'Allier after they split from those going to Gare Central. Was it a mistake or do you actually think Lucien L'Allier should run the train to Ottawa? Why or why not?
ive always thought though that (atleast on the canadian west coast) freight trains have always been faster than their counterparts down south who seem to be afraid of capital cost. Just feels like the tracks are being used for the speeds they were designed for.
not a canadian at all, don't know why this was recommended to me but nice video👍
This is such a common sense solution. I think we should do another feasibility study on this. 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡
Great video, Paige
Quick note that the music is about 30% too loud while you're talking
You could build a new alignment along the freeway that could later be upgraded to full high speed
“Pedestrian Observations” has a very interesting blog article on why Highway medians are surprisingly ill-suited for passenger rail, given that rubber-tired cars travelling at 120 km/h are much less demanding for vertical and horizontal alignments than steel-on-steel trains travelling at twice that speed…
This appears to be well researched and much better planned than the actual VIA executives are proposing.
You are right that is the golden ticket to getting VIA the political leverage to get traction. That is a well thought out set of options to meet multiple price points and future development goals.
And the city pair of Montreal, Ottawa/Gatineau is a natural for an incredible bump in prosperity and business.
Now we just need you to build a case for us out in 'burta :)
The problem is VIA has no aspirations to even get current service up to a decent status, let alone making improvements.
Please, someone send this to the federal government. We need this now!