How To Fail At Metroidvanias
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2024
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Doh De Oh by Kevin MacLeod
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after a few years of helping this little indie team called "team cherry" help develop "hollow knight silksong" i was just about to release it for the public but after watching this video i realized it needs a bit more tweaking, cya in 10 years
glad I could help! ....or not help. ...one of those I guess. :)
@@Artindi you are helping, but backward
no, no... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
why must you hurt me so
don't worry gerbo, this is for the better
0:34 Hollow Knight but the entire map is Deepnest.
Yes.... actually I don't know what deepnest is, but to make it seem like I really am in the know on all things game related I'm going to pretend I understand, even though I could probably just google it and find out really fast, and I honestly want to, but then sometimes I'm just to lazy.... So... yes, I couldn't agree more! :D
@@Artindidon’t google it actually, if you’ve never played hollow knight you should 100% give it a try. :)
1:12 or if the entire game played like the White Palace
@@Artindi Deepnest is a zone in Hollow knight filled with spiders ennemies, dark ambience , and is meant to be a maze filled with creepy things. In that case the layout of a maze is welcome because it gives you this feeling you're not welcome, it adds to the atmosphear. Though of course as usual when something is done correctly in a specific place with a specific purpose just extend it to everything. Like my perfection.
1:12 Hollow Knight, but every room is the Path of Pain.
guys you can always just add a key and a door to an already exisiting game
Genius! IQ = 6 Billion!
Doom is a metroidvania! Or at least a metroidvanialite...
Yes, but can you add... *several dozen* keys?
@@CheshireCad Bonus points if they're incredibly small amd hard to see if the game is in first person
You forgot to add dashing
ha, yeah, that probably would have been good. :)
With no invincibility frames because dodging attacks is hard so why even have a dodge.
Add dashing to every game
i don't get it
Dashing? You don't need that!
You put time and effort into your single tileset! You want players to take in your nice scenery every time they walk by it. Adding dashing will make this impossible! Why would you want them to go through already explored areas faster when you could just let them experience the beauty?
As a metroidvania, I can confirm this is how my parents describe how I failed
I'm sorry to hear that, I'm here for you... if you need to talk about it.
@@Artindibro just insulted him and now apologising 💀
So does that means your a mistake?
@@mgames3209 yes, but at least i wasnt an accident like you were
@@arkimedeez Dang
Glorified keys is indeed a good analogy: If you want to fail, make sure you don't do what Ori games do where you use your newfound abilities all the time because they're both useful and fun. Instead, make sure that, at most, your new abilities are only used to open or get past very specific extremely contextual spots (if even that). And yes, having an actual key as a "powerup" is guaranteed at making you closer to failing at metroidvanias, especially if it's used only in one area.
Yeah, half the times it's like they are just checking things they need off a list without actually thinking about how it contributes to the game as a whole. :)
Make sure you have to manually equip whatever glorified key you want to use before actually using it, even though it serves no other purpose besides being a key. Yes, I have seen at least one game do this.
balan moment
@@almost_friday9745 heh, never heard of that game; I was thinking of Monster Sanctuary!
@@EdKolisBlasphemous is a good game and even it does it, though it lets you equip three at a time and there aren't many of them.
Ahhh, at last, HERE is a decent chap who actually doesn't want his viewers to hurt themselves being creative. Thank you for your dedication to Safety First, sir.
it's because I care. :)
Another thing I forgot: If you don't want to make an useless ability or a glorified key, make sure that the new ability makes previous abilities obsolete, rather than complementing them.
this is a good point. :)
Or even better, make it complementary, but make it difficult or even impossible to switch back to the old ability! Like in the original Metroid where you could carry the ice beam or the wave beam but not both, and to switch required backtracking.
So like gravity suit made varia suit obsolete?
@@Master_Fortune I didn't know you could re-equip varia suit after obtaining gravity suit.
@@Master_Fortune Gravity suit replaced Varia suit, so it was an upgrade not a second ability. Upgrades are different than making an old ability/item obsolete.
As a side note, if you DO make a Metroidvania for the story you're so passionate about, absolutely do not use the environment and assets and game mechanics to creatively tell and immerse that story through nuanced environmental hints
Gamers should ONLY like knowing the story through text only treasure items found in out of the way dead ends in the game. So go ahead. Take your thinly veiled Dark Souls Fanfic, break it up into several page long chapters and put them in treasure boxes. There you go, your metroidvania now has a compelling, rewarding story. IF you're willing to "Look for it!" and put all the pieces together!
And keep it in the extremes too! Don't put secret extra bits of story and lore hidden throughout that rewards the player for exploring, but still isn't necessary for understanding the main plot. Either hand everything to the player on a silver platter, minimal effort required, or make the player obsessively check every nook and cranny to have any hope of understanding your amazing, genius, masterpiece of a story.
A story can be so good in a game, it's main purpose is to communicate the objective of the game, but if you add story, might as well do your best to make it compelling and interesting. :)
Wait this is basically Metroid Prime. Every piece of the story of the game besides what happens in gameplay and cutscenes is hidden away in random scannable logs and even enemies and bosses. And bosses and a handful of items from the first stage you only get one opportunity to scan.
No no, have the game grind to a halt while your NPC mission control tells you fire is hot and the magma caverns was built by Lord Flameo the Hotman because he likes heat and is guarding the ice gun that will cool down a superheated door to the Frosty Hills. The player couldn't figure that out without the game telling them directly!
@@Chadius now I'm thinking of the Heat Miser and the Frost Miser
I thought of what might be a funny way to restrict areas in an open world: Have an NPC standing guard call out to the player that they can't pass until the reach Level 14. If the player picks a dialogue option to ask them why, the NPC responds with answers like "Because the developer wants you to see other areas first" or "Because the developer can't think of an in-universe reason." It's silly and meta, but in the right type of game it might work really well.
yeah, as long as it fit's the rest of the games theme and feel, there are a lot of devs who try meta jokes that don't fit into the rest of the world and it lands really bad, but when done right, that joke could be pretty great. :)
" Imagine yourself climbing a latter because the game developers forgot to animate this scene " was some awkward dialog to listen to.
It's been done before, and unless the whole game is a comedy then it will just seem out of place and even more immersion breaking than an invisible wall. Self-aware humor is something I see way overused by indie devs, especially those who lack confidence. They're so worried that people will find their awkward blocked off path and get upset that they try to make it into something 'funny' and actually only make it worse.
An invisible wall leaves the player going 'ugh' for a second or two and then they move on, an attempt at using meta-humor to sweep the invisible wall under the rug only draws attention to it and comes with a good chance to make the player MORE annoyed.
I do hate that most Metriodvanias use the same stock set of power-ups. Extra jumps, door-opening missiles, morph ball, grapple hook, etc. I'm hungry for some new toys to play with. Axiom Verge had the ability to phase through single block walls, which was really cool.
I recently saw a Metroidvania that had some abilities that looked pretty trippy and creative, (I think it's free on Epic right now,) But it looked so appealing and refreshing.
I think I can help with that on Halloween.....👀👀
@@Artindiwich one?
@@KitsuneFaroe Islets
I mean, being very honest... Castlevania games are all pretty much "Double jump, very high jump, flying, sliding..." good thing everything else is great because holy crap are the abilities boring.
Definitely make your story super obscure, convoluted, and confusing! The theory crafters LOVE that. The less the player understands, the better
I mean... I do enjoy good story theory sometimes. :)
Making your story impossible to understand without looking through the source code and buying the novels is the best way to tell a story! Every game should be an ARG. If you can understand what is happening in a game just by playing it you are clearly doing something wrong.
I can't tell if you're talking about Hollow Knight or Afterimage or Ender Lilies or Blasphemous or...
Then people will give you publicity by making videos about it, because your game will 100% be famous!
Also, remember to add ambiguous stuff that never gets resolved, like Pate and Creighton from Dark Souls 2, so some people make posts asking for an answer, and others make their own theories. Free exposition!
@@azuarcblasphemous story isn't confusing, just stupidly verbose.
For all those who are coming down to the comments to say something like "But I play games just for the story!"... : I'm happy for you, stories in games are great. :)
Also, please don't take everything I say so literally. ;)
I think the only game I played for the story was the last of us..
Other than that I only care how fun it is to shoot things
Genuinely designing a platformer with the story being the main focus 😅 i love these videos
I naturally play games for the story, but if the gameplay is in no way "fun" or help guide the story forward in a way to actually let me enjoy it, I dip out.
It's why I don't last long playing games like planet of Lana, but spent all day playing Iconoclasts.
In the latter, the story is deep, but it's not in your face given the ton of action the game offers right off the bat.😅
I feel called out. Get your point, but feel like their is a difference between a game that is all about the story (with the story being the main reason anyone would play the game) and a game that has a story but is mostly about the gameplay.
I think this is the first time i saw a youtuber not pin their own comment
27 seconds without sarcasm?!
Gasp! ...ma bad.
Don't forget to add an extreme amount of backtracking for no reason other than to make the game take more than 2 hours to complete, we wouldn't want your game being refunded would we? While you're at it, make the bosses exceptionally unfair and hard to understand, and have the nearest save point be at least 5 rooms away from them.
nothing like running the same path 200 times will trying to figure out the first stage of a 5 stage boss. :)
Screw that, save points are overrated. So are hit points. And skippable cutscenes. You should be able to get hit once at the final boss and now have to wait through the drawn-out opening cutscene as you begin your trek through the entire game all over again.
Then again, a very important tip: If you want to not scare the players away within the refund period, you actually have to *pretend to value the player’s time* for as long as the exits are unlocked.
I love this series SO much. Especially all the pieces to fail. As a game dev, I used to fail making games on my own. But now I have a complete recipe on how to fail each genre! Wonderful
Keep up the good work!
why fail at one genre, when you can fail at them all! :D
@@ArtindiI already failed at platformer, puzzle, story-driven, adventure and probably more I can't remember. I'm on the right track!
"If it's fun, why bother?" - Reggie from Sega
Good moto to live by... probably. :)
@@Artindi If you want to fail at living, then certainly.
"My body was ready years ago. Now, not so much." -Reggie from Nintendo
Be sure that your unlockable abilities don't have any other use besides unlocking the next area. Players hate when they're given a variety of tools that provide unique new ways to approach battles and exploration.
Yes, their only use is opening doors at that's it. :)
alternatively, create enemies and obstacles that can only be beaten through a *single*, specific, precisely executed combination of abilities; unique ways my ass! you *are* going to build muscle memory of that, or die. git gud, as the kids say.
Or at the opposite, you might be scared your player might get lost in a poorly designed maze, or advance the story in the wrong order than you planned, so instead make sure to make your world as straightforward as possible with as little interconnectivity between region, to the point it could be a traditionnal linear game with just a bit of backtracking.
I'm totally not talking about a game about a white glowing tree spirit where this was so well executed they've keep a similar level design into the sequel.
It's funny because Metroid Dread follows all of your bullet points to the letter.
3:39 please wake take your medicine your family is worried about you
they aren't real... 0.0
"You have to make your game exactly like Metroid" -what, are we doing roguelikes again? 😂
Ha ha.
Funny thing, there was a roguelite Super Metroid clone called A Robot Named Fight. Even the jumps felt exactly as floaty as Super Metroid.
the artwork that comes up for "conceptualize things in a new way" is my new favorite thing ever :D
seemed fitting. :)
These videos are actually pretty useful for annyonne trying to make a game, nnot only giving ideas, but also a sense of realism and mistakes to evade.
Time to make a metroidvania with no story, linear progression, and precision platforming!
shouldn't the story be convoluted, cliched, pointless and have nothing to do with the actual gameplay, though? linear progression and precision platforming stay, of course.
Dude, this video is 100% amazing, truly well written, well edited, put humour and delivery at the right time and straight to the point. I really wish more videos today were just like that. Thank you dude!
Your content is concise, original, informative, and entertaining. It's a rare thing - I love these.
Why thank you my good Walrus. :)
It is true indie devs shouldn't assume their stories will be somehow special enough where nothing else will matter. But like all good media it is a balance of different parts working together forming a greater whole. Good stories & characters help give strong motivation to explore or do whatever, as good gameplay alone is not enough motivation for everybody out there despite what some gamers may argue. Personally I won't touch a game if it doesn't have fun characters I can get attached onto, especially as I am not the sort of gamer who prefers to self insert.
A great point! A story's most powerful contribution is giving the player motivation to achieve the objectives established by the game, and sometimes being the means by which the goal is communicated in the first place. A good story for sure has it's place in a good video game. :)
This puts into context SOOOOOO many problems that I had while playing "9 Years of Shadow" but also why I'm so hyped for "Savior"
what do you mean no one cares about my story its about a kid befriending demons and leaves a message about how killing is wrong its so original 😭😭😭
finally a story I can relate to! url to your kickstarter plox
1:29 - When a time traveler steps on a bug
Now do one that can have a caption of : "When a time traveller tells you that your kid works for BuzzFeed
Nice when metriodvania is one of my future games on my list to devlop
I dedicate this episode to you. :)
This series is peak
This comment is peak
1:08 idea so devilish that even you had to break character to say it's terrible 😂
I like the style of these videos! Sometimes I get a good laugh from them.
I'm still surprised that Nintendo hasn't sued everyone who calls their game a metroidvania.
Nintendo is not the owner of Castlevania; just Metroid
@@realrealqbok I know
I like to watch these videos every once and a while to make sure I'm failing correctly at game design. Good study material.
I love this series; it's like the dummy's guide to video game genres on CZcams!
I was wondering if you'd be covering any of these game genres next:
- Detective/Mystery
- Dating Sim
- Collectathon
- Racing
Most of them? I don't know about dating sim, I might as a joke, but otherwise the rest seem like they will eventually get an episode. :)
@@Artindi Wait, I thought this whole series was a joke!
2:24 to ruin a metroidvania story, make it tied to the exploration. Which means that you need to tell it through cryptic messages, item descriptions and random bits of lore said by the NPCs for no reason. Make your players work to make sense of anything but not after letting them to know that the work is going to pay off.
are you a developer for Blasphemous, by any chance?
Modern indie metroidvania: 14 ways to go and 13 blocked paths.
Also, make sure all the areas and rooms are really hard to distinguish from each other. Having distinct environments for each area and having notable distinct features in alot of rooms will allow the player to navigate better, as they will be able to remember each section and know where it is.
Why are you telling us this? Any 2d indie game with pixelart is instantly a masterpiece, NO MATTER WHAT.
a hidden gem, as the saying goes.
Also make them extremly tunnel, like location 1 -> location 2 -> location 3.
Most Metroidvanias introduce a "double jump" ability fairly early... But funnily enough, one of the most popular Metroidvanias out there gives it out almost in end-game, so that the player plays with its own unique movement options to get through platforming sections.
Also, I'd say the best metroidvanias I've played have more of a "setting" than a story. AKA, it's less of following your own story, and more of discovering the world around you and what happened to it. Both Hollow Knight and Ender Lilies are great examples of that.
funny because a demo I participated on was basically all the good/opposite parts of that vid. tight interconnected areas for a small map, unique assets and behaviours for each of them, a few paragraphs of story and gameplay explanations in case someone cares, that was it.
I swear some day I'll manage to work on it enough to make a team again
That would be pretty awesome! :D
I was waiting for this one
Thanks!
I made it just for you. :)
@@Artindi I appreciate it
The genius of the color palette and sprite joke is that it bas summarizes how it feels to play the first Metroid. I had to look up a guide to avoid breaking something.
If you do add fun upgrades in your game make sure they're only unlocked near the end, sprinkle a bunch of minor stat increases throughout the game to give players something to do and then let them have 30 minutes of cool gameplay before the credits roll.
Which game is this referring to?
My "dream game" is a metroidvania, and this helped reassure me a little that i'm at least kinda going in the right direction
2:38 This sequence is actually a really good breakdown of what exactly makes games fun
Exactly the one i wanted to find a week ago or so when i suscribed xD
I'm gonna make one with a friend, and the scope of it feels like such a push and pull... i hope we manage to make a good one
Good luck! It is a very doable genre for an indie dev!
Great video, if you need an idea for the series how about cozy games.
I've played a lot of Metroidvanias over the years, and the worst sin they can do (to me, at least) is have boring upgrades. You can still have standard upgrades like double jump, but mix it with some interesting upgrades, or just put a spin on the old ones. Why double jump when you can propel yourself like a rocket? Also, have upgrades that do more than just solve a single problem. An ability that lights up dark rooms could also be a damaging AOE around you. Make your ugrades multipurpose and interesting.
That wink was fire.
YES I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS SINCE DAY ONE
Make sure your Metroidvania's story can be boiled down to "Once upon a time there was a kingdom, then the bad guy killed everyone, and you killed him". How will your players get attached to the characters if they aren't dead before you even start playing?
You don’t even know what a game is, I don’t even know what a Metroidvania is and I’m thinking of making one. Totally the best.
Tip for metroidvania maps: either make them filled out all the way, including every single collectible you could find, making you question why you’re even here trying to find them all, or have zero map, no matter how complicated the maze is
Speaking of the world, a balance of straight paths and open areas is not as good as a completely linear path through the entire game, or a world so open-ended that it has to be designed to be beaten without any items, making you question why you’re even here trying to find them all.
Please wake up, we really miss you.
Don't forget to give the player the item or ability to open a certain section the farthest point possible on the map without any way to fast travel, so that the player WILL have to cross the entire map to get to the new part. Essentially make a linear game where you have to walk back and forth to collect key items which are always placed conveniently on the opposite side of the map, because what is a metroidvania without backtracking right?
love ur pixel art :c
okay but... How to fail at precision platformers?
Also: if your metroidvainia is going to be compared to Hollow Knight in any way you better make DAMN sure that it is capable of liveing up to the hype ( Crowsworn and nine sols) or be cursed to be called an inferior copy (deviator and lotus knight)
Remember not to add a map, it'll be more fun for the player to backtrack by memory
alternatively, as a way of rubbing it in, add a map, but make it gigantic, non-scrollable, always centered on player's location, and require player to constantly backtrack to the parts of the map that currently are three lengths of the monitor outside of the visible map area
Also, dont bother with theme or anything. Just make it "space hero goes in an abandoned ship" or "medieval hero goes in castle". No metrovania that has strayed from this has ever gotten popular.
This is a great advice. Instead of saying what to do and guiding by your tail.
0:14 the keys can also be used in some places they shouldn't
i think you were trying to tell me to make a precision platformer metroidvania, brb.
My Metroidvania took this personally...
Video idea: how to fail at making fighting games
There's a difference between "glorified keys" and metroidvania abilities.
The difference is, a "key" is only applicable to certain kinds of "doors", and can't be used anywhere else or for anything else. While an ability can be used at player's discretion systemically, and is useful for avoiding obstacles as well as general traversal *and* combat.
i'd like to see someone follow these and make the worst game possible
0.0
Also please make sure that every upgrade works for one single purpose instead of making the upgrades mix and match with one another creating an experience that feels whole
If you really want to fail, make the upgrades literally just keys... that you use once on the other side of the map... to get another key back where you just were.
For the algae rythm!
How to fail at;
Character design
Story telling
There is already an episode on Story Telling, but it might be fun to do one on Character design, though this depends largely on the genre and theme, might be fun to think about still. :)
@@Artindi you may want to consider how to fail at vr games
3:04 “Also, you should be able to poop out one in about a week…”
Hey, that’s great for game jams, at least!
Gotta love the old "Dash --> Wall climb --> double jump --> call it a day" thought process that does the bare minimum and brings nothing new to the table
You described Hollowknight, excluding the stronger weapon (vengeful spirit), the lantern, and the special armour that let's you into an otherwise deadly environment (Isthma's Tear)
I love how half of the "don'ts" applies to Hollow Knight, Shadow Complex and Ori - 3 of the most popular metroidvanias of 2010s
You should make a video one failing fighting games, I was looking to make a fighting game but I wanna make sure that it’s not too good. 😊
0:48 basically the original Metroid
Also, even though it is called a "Metroidvania," what we really mean is "Actually It's Just Super Metroid Again And No Castlevania Whatsoever Oops."
Would have been better to publish this one before the Metroidvania Month, but atleast there's still the Super Metroidvania Month haha
Recommending you to check out the different themed jams
Thanks for the video!
Hollow Knight devs didn't see the "fail" part of the title and used this as a guide to game creation and thought it was good enough to push to 20-30hrs.
Remember to make every ability as situational as possible
Epic. Please do an episode on failing developing fighting games?
There have been a few requests for this, but every time I put it in a poll there is always another genre that's more demanded. I'm sure eventually it will win. :)
Platforming? I was planning to just have a 100% 90° plain with any split path done with doors that warp you to a new 90° plain; sometimes this would be progress, but most of the time it's either a disconnected hallway that leads to empty rooms or an empty room. I will probably do away with a jump button altogether, and, no, I will not replace it with a function to warrent it's loss.
Also, to ensure that the game is longer, I've made sure that any upgrades are placed at the farthest possible location from where they're most helpful. Wouldn't want to have game design to give players subtle clues or anything.
And there will be several enemies strategically placed in areas and with patterns that cannot be hit easily with health bars that take at least 8 hits to kill despite being able to start hurting you 2 hits in max. But that power buff to grind for can knock that 8 hits down to 5-6 if you max it out.
Simplified controls, expansive play times, challenging enemy combat. These are all fun game designs.
backtracking is essential to every good metroidvania; you wouldn't want to make the player feel as if they're set on a linear path. That's why you should put the next objective reaaaallly far back from where the player gets a new upgrade! Bonus points if the way to progress is not hinted at or obvious in any way (wouldn't want to ruin the player's sense of discovery, right?)
Does that make Pokemon Diamond/Pearl a Metroidvania just from how egregious of a test of patience getting the ability to run was?
2 of my favourite metroidvanias are also precision platformers - 3 if you count certain sections of hollow knight (white palace & path of pain my beloved)
I think I might just be insane though
most of Metroidvania storys are just "dead kingdom like hollow knight" lol
I remember trying to start making games but I was stuck at downloading unity (Something didn't worked)
Maybe try a smaller game engine like Godot or GameMaker, might be easier to get into as well. :)
The line between good advice and terrible tip is starting to blur... obviously not everything but it's interesting to note.
"Metroidvanias are not precision platformers" *Path of Pain would like to speak with you*
Blasphemous almost succeeded at failing, but it accidentally had beautiful art and some interesting movement abilities - once you jump through the umpteen hidden hoops to finally, FINALLY acquire them, of course! You MUST prove your worth before your backtracking will ever, ever be worth it, and no they won't tell you where to go for what, or how important that one _freaking_ hairy egg quest is, you have to either just wiki it, or randomly search _the entire mazeworld,_ full as it is of death pits and sparse revival sites. Sequel's kinda guilty too.
it's the kind of game that playthrough videos were invented for
Hey Artindi, what about a video about How to Fail at Souls-Like?
The best metroidvania design ever is to gate really basic abilities behind upgrades. (It's even better if it's an ability that would make the game much more fun and fluid to play and you keep it away from the player until the very end, like a worse version of how the double jump in Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia is gated ^^)
The story bit is the most based thing that I've ever heard.
Thanks, i can now sucsessly fail at my metroidvania.
yay new vid
yay new comment
Is the map at 0:39 from an actual game? it feels familiar.
So you're saying, that if i do it exactly in the oposite way, i will get a good game?