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BATMAN V SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE ULTIMATE EDITION
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2016
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Kevin and Marc talk about the Ultimate Edition of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and the Justice League set visit.
Three times a week, Marc Bernardin and Kevin Smith talk about all the daily news in movie make believe, terrific TV and anything that squeaks in Geek!
04:34 -- Kevin Smith's thoughts
07:00 -- Kevin's Thoughts on Lex Luthor
10:00 -- Kevin and Marc problems with Batman
14:20 -- Wonder Woman Stuff is Wonderful
16:00 -- Problems with Kahina Ziri
17:20 -- Biggest complaint is Lex Luthor
18:55 -- Explaining a punchline means its a bad joke
20:00 -- The Justice League Set Visit
26:45 -- Aquaman & Cyborg Special Features
28:20 -- Barry Allen and Bruce Wayne scene
38:10 -- Sign off!
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Jay and Silent Bob’s Secret Stash jayandsilentbob...
my biggest complaint about the ultimate version is that most of it should have been in the theatrical version.
This is what I just don't understand. They are wasting 200 million on the production and cannot invest some time and money into a proper script. Make a good movie WB and you will earn more money. It's really simple.
I wish the theatrical cut didn't even exist. I call it "the Greed Cut". By cutting 30 minutes from the movie, they could have more showings per day, and thus make more money. But they crippled the story by hacking it like that. If they'd just released the 3-hour cut in the first place, this movie would NOT have a Rotten Tomatoes score of 29%. More like 56%, and the word of mouth would have been MUCH better!
Yes. Definitely.
I have to correct Kevin and Marc when they said that "the theatrical version is the one they wrote, and that's the problem I had with it". But it's not actually. This is the version they wanted to show. WB made last minute decisions and shaved off 30 mins.
but people are already complaining about 2hr33min being long. Dawn of the Justice was a for the fans movie only and I am glad that it was like that. I have my disagreements with character portrayals to some extent, but that's not at all with Superman. In fact I didn't see a more realistic Superman ever.
Smart decision. Theatrical cut DOES work but the extended cut is better. I wish it HAD been the cinema release but I get the financial reasons for a shorter film.
I think Batman is a villain in BvS. It's all about him becoming a hero again.
I think people will more understand Batman v Superman after seeing Justice league
I think they should've just shown Joker beating Robin to death and shooting Barbra in the back and people would understand why he's so dark now.
Yes! And Superman experiences being a human.
Philip Bujalski Well yes and no. In the original run of the Suicide Squad I know it ran during the time and had a tie into the killing joke; when Joker shot and paralyzed Barbra from the waist down. I don't remember them going into Joker killing Robin though. They could've I have the complete run and I'll have to read through them to know exactly. But the main problem is DC is rushing to catch up to Marvel and in doing so leaving too much unexplained and making movies with too much going on. I enjoyed BVS but realistically that should've been two separate movies.
I think you are right.
"How many times are you going to watch this thing?"
"Until I love it!"
"What am I suddenly Matt Damon? Fuck this noise."
perfect
"No, you're Johnny Carson" a reference
for us old folks
I love the dark tone. I don't want anymore kid DC movies. I'm ready for dark gritty rated R DC films.
@J G Same.
Could we have good dark DC movies instead of shits ones like this film?
We need more movies like this
I don’t even think this movie is dark. Visually yeah, but thematically/story wise it’s not. Folks acting like this is Se7en.
This line pretty much explains Lex's motivation.
Lex Luthor: [to Superman] I don't hate the sinner. I hate the sin. And yours, my friend, is existing.
Which is kind of lame in the grand scheme of things.
Lex is obsessed with the premise that knowledge is power and he's spent his whole life learning to the end of being the most powerful man on earth. Then a man shows up who can fly and shoot lasers out his eyes and ruins that premise of his life. He can't accept being less powerful than Superman. He even explains that when trying to give a speech at his charity function.
I was totally into this being his motivation when I saw the film. But the whole daddy issue rant really watered down what would have been valid motivation and has since confused a lot of viewers.
that people like Smith, intelligent writers themselves don't get this is half scary, half sad.
Nah, He was simply losing it at that point. Either couldn't keep up the facade or felt like soon he wouldn't have to. Whatever, he was getting more and more twitchy as he approached his denouement...*bwa-hah-hah!!! Eeeeeevil!*
Thank You! I love this movie. I think the main theme of the movie is obsession. From Batman to Lex to Superman to Lois. Batman's character arc is amazing in this movie and very ambitious.
No, the father beating him would serve as a deeper meaning to why he wants to be the most powerful person on earth.
I adore the ultimate edition and I understand why people might not like it, but some of the bits people don't understand baffles me. Still, great film. One of my top 5 comic movies ever.
I think Zack Snyder is Tarantinoing US. what do I mean by that. I think his overall goal in the movie is to take a story and place it into multiple movies. so that later down the road will fill in the gaps and look back at bvs and say this movie was genius.
The movie has a lot of strengths, although many weakness's. But I think the Batman everything is the strongest portion of the film. Alfleck was a perfect choice.
I think Zack Snyder's Batman, is a Batman without hope. Bruce Wayne/Batman is pure anger at this point without any sense of what he's doing is to protect and bring some hope for the victims of the villains of Gotham.. He is about pain and punishment and no longer about protecting the innocent and justice. That's why he's been drinking so much in the movie (Alfred says he hopes that the wine cellar could be passed on the the next Wayne generation i.e. Bruce is drinking like a fish).
I think that's why Bruce is having the Martha dream, his consciousness telling him that he's forgotten why he's Batman; that he's lost his way.
The Batman we see in this movie is kind of like Thomas Wayne's batman in Flashpoint. All about rage and revenge.
#1 that's like the comics--creative writers get to take their shot at creating their own storyline.
The ENTIRE MOVIE (
Sure, but why? Because Robin's dead? In my mind, that would never be enough to push Batman over the edge given what we know about the character from the comics (iron-willed and all)
so far everything DC put out, in their movie kick, OTHER THAN suicide squad was (Character) - (hope) = Good Movie?and suicide squad was (characters)+(other characters)=Please god let this work...
That's because you made a connection where there is none.
LEX'S MOTIVATION...... Just watched ultimate edition today, which was the first time i saw the film. About 9 minutes in you guys talk about not knowing Lex's motivation.....Well, from what i saw, in the speech Lex gives at the benefit When he says "Books are knowledge and knowledge is power..and i'm.....no, what am i saying....The bitter sweet pain among men is having knowledge with no power, because that is paradoxical....." That, tied in to some other things he was referring to in his rambling speech, tells me he feels he has all the knowledge and therefor should have all the power.....and he resents the power that Superman has. Its a paradox he must correct.
_Thank you!!_ 👏
well fi that was supposedly his motivation, HE doesn't seem to think it is. He flat out reveals his motivation at the end of the film and it's that his father hit him so he doesn't believe in God and he resents the fact that Superman looks like a mythological God.
... which is a stupid plot.
I'm sure his upbringing is why he's somewhat off center, but i think his intentions and reason to want to get rid of Superman is somewhat evident from the start. Also his motivations will change as the movie ends because he, basically, got what he wanted. He got Superman, and the only person he figured could kill him..Batman, to fight. Which he almost did, until his change of heart because of the Matha thing. So he used his back-up plan of Doomsday and, even though Doomsday died doing it, he had Superman die. So after that, motivations will change. These are all my opinion, ofcourse.
I mean sure, but why is it this complicated, also why is one of the richest moguls in the DC universe rambling and stuttering on, unable to make a point about the issue? Seriously all you have to do is point out the fact that Superman is taking away the idea that humans need to solve their own issues, we should be the masters of our own destiny not some alien god figure. It's been Lex's motivation before and it always rings pretty well because on a certain level we can all agree with it, being the omnipotent viewer we know supermans a good guy but shouldn't we rely less on a benevolent god and fix our own shit? Sure it's not a novel idea, its not particularly ground breaking in the genre, but lets face it the reason it is those things is because it works.
Give me back the super powerful Lex who is cold, calculating, devious, and isn't afraid of superman. I don't want some kid who looks like he's going to piss himself when he gets a stern look from daddy.
I believe he's stammering and a bit awkward due to the abuse from his dad. And there's no reason we won't see the cold, calculating, devious Lex in subsequent films.....I have a feeling this is just a "proto-lex" that will develop as things go along. I mean, he wasn't even bald until the very end...Perhaps that was a visual cue that this wasn't suppose the be Lex in his final form, but just a starting point.
Honestly the tone of both man of steel and bvs didn't bother me at all. I like that it's dark, I like that it's serious and it feels like the stakes are higher then anything marvel has done. The tone wasn't the problem it was the fact that the movie had pacing issues, bad editing, and some weak writing in some parts.
I'm interested., because you're not the first person I read say that the stakes feel higher. I'm just interested in why? I pretty much know no one of essential is going to die in these movies so the stakes to me are mundane at best. Superman is going to come back., he wasn't going to die if you're going to make a Justice League movie so..., where are the stakes? I did think that they would wait for a later movie to bring him back but..., nope. lol Even that didn't last long so., where are the stakes?
Superman is currently dead. He died at the end of the movie and so far he has not come back to life. The dust rising does not indicate he is alive only that his bioelectric aura is present...that is that his body still holds some charge from the Sun. That is all. It does not mean he is alive. He is currently dead. How he comes back to life we will have to wait and see. The stakes were continuously high in this movie seeing Lex Luther killed so many people through his henchmen including Superman. The senator, the false witness, Wally Keefe, the guy who entered the Metropolis prison, not to mention we did not know if Superman's mother was going to be killed nor even Superman by Batman as it looked like Batman would have killed him at one moment. Superman still dies by the hands of Doomsday.
In this movie the stakes were very high imo. The music also brings that tension making the stakes hieghtened.
Uhhhh., I don't consider myself the brightest bulb but., uh there were movie trailers before the actual movie was released and in one of those trailers he was present next to Batman and Wonder Woman., which pretty much tells you he wasn't going to die at the hands of Batman at that point in the movie.
There's deaths in every comic book movie but., at no point do we really feel any stakes are high for the lead protagonist. I'm actually surprised Qucksilver didn't come back yet in the Marvel movies. lol You can call the debris floating up from his coffin anything want but., we know he isn't dead and there really isn't any gravitas. lol
Curtis Brown I question the trailers at the point when Batman grabbed Superman by his head and dropped him down the to the base of the building.then dragged him off as in a horror movie....I saw him take up the kryptonite spear and cut his face and I thought really? This si how Superman dies? In spite seeing the trailers I literally question that moment....then Superman started mumbling and Batman paused then I got it but before that I really was buying Batman about to jack superman and I was like are they really going to do this? I couldn't believe it to be honest. Like when young Bruce started rising off the ground into the air I was like what? Then I realized it was a dream...it was one of those What The....moments in the movie.
For me the movie kept tension throughout with the musical score...such as when the Batman is first revealed which was just creepy...and that really once again made me believe that this batman was not only a vigilante and how he would be perceived in a real world setting but for the first time I had fear in my heart for the Batman.
This movie surely wasn't Civil War....the beats and tension in it were established from the beginning.
It was not a funny movie although it had funny moments such as Perry White's quips and even the comedian on Tv talking about Superman denying himself to be american and Grace speaking about not pointing any fingers at people Lex Luther's quips with Superman and with Senator Finch and several others from Clark with his mother and Batman with Ma Kent and so on....but it was not in any way for me a funny movie nor what I would call an action adventure movie...this was more of an drama that had action in it. When it had action it was spectacular but most of the movie was a drama thriller imo.
I really enjoyed it. Being a Christian I liked the analogies to Jesus in Superman and how not everyone received him and how he was a figure of controversy and how he sacrificed his life to save humanity and even how the priest spoke of him rising again which was the prophesy of Christ where on the third day he would rise again. Sadly they didn't put out the Ultimate Cut on Easter.
I thought they basically showed Superman was a Jesus figure. Some would say he was in a way an anti-christ...but I can easily use the character to preach christ. For me Christ is all and is who I seek to share as much as possible. Because of Jesus who is alive today we have eternal life. This Superman fails to give to mankind but Jesus the real Superman gives to all who will receive him.
***** Wow., that's some deep analogy there bro. I'm not even going to contend with any of that because of my objective nature I'm not very religious so I speak as such. I'm glad you took something away from the movie. It does to its credit inspire a lot of thought. I may not had taking away what you did but., I admit it was there. All movies are subjective. It's just the "stakes" wasn't as high for me.
I wish Paul Dini, Bruce Timm, and the rest of the gang from the animated series were in charge of the movies. Why doesn't DC just ask them for advice.
They did with Dini but they abused it by trying to not pay him(using contract horseshit) and not using his advice right.
Theres other near misses too
This is Fatman on Batman,go DL all the Paul Dini and Bruce Timm FMoBM podcast episodes on Smodcast.com or Soundcloud,all questions answered
I love Bruce Timm and Paul Dini but... it's not like Mask of The Phantasm and Return Of The Joker were astounding films. I mean, I love ROTJ, but it's amazing... for a saturday morning cartoon movie. It would never stand up as a theatrical film.
+JazGalaxy isn't mask of the phantasm considered by most the best Batman movie? So far I agree. I think it's better then dark knight. What I mean is these guys know the characters better then most. They made successful shows and movies. I mean for Batman v Superman they could have literally copied worlds finest add a couple things to make two hrs and change some things. And there you have a good super man and Batman movie haha
I've been saying that even before Snyder was hired. Timms needs to be put in charge. Timms absolutely nailed it with the Animated universe. He's proabably a bit too old now, though.
I love the Timmverse but it gets overrated and has a lot of limits due to the fact it was a children's show. I get frustrated when fans just want to see that translated onto the screen. I much prefer Snyder taking creative risks that draw inspirations from celebrated comic book classics , even if the final product is flawed.
Luthor Jr's hate for Superman is in his speech to Finch. Superman makes Lex feel powerless, which is how he felt about his dad. This whole film is about 3 sons and how they were shaped by their fathers.
Did anybody else CZcams not show this in their news feed.
yeah I was scrolling through my subs and thought I'd click on Kevin's page and saw this video.
Nope. Found it by accident. Weird huh? Marvel conspiracy? lol
Same, literally just spotted it when looking for something else.
I did actually once see it in my subscriptions, but like the page refreshed and it was gone. I searched for it and didn't find it. Finally it popped up again on my Home feed, saying it was uploaded 3 days ago.
Yah, bin like that with all my subscriptions. For like two weeks....WTF.
Here is what I have noticed, Kevin Smith has said when he worked on the Superman film that WB told him that DC doesn't get involved, it's a separate entity. That's the issue, Disney let's Marvel make their own films WB doesn't allow DC near it and if you look at DC's Animated Films you will see if they just filmed movies like Under the Redhood or Flashpoint in live action they would stand toe to toe against Marvel at the box office but WB acts embarrassed about making and/or owning DC.
Considering WB is allowing Geoff John's(The head of DC) to over see all future projects this theory is invalid
It's not invalid because they just recently allowed him to be apart of the creative process. But Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were made without any DC affiliates. Plus, we have no idea how much creative control Johns even has at this point. We won't know until Justice league, the first actual project under his new leadership.
Marvel Studios and Marvel comics are also completely separated tho
Those kid oriented marvel films have Disney written all over it. The Netflix series I believe are separate.
+whfmantis -- The MCU films are actually smarter. You just have to follow the fast-paced, dialogue-driven exposition. DC was never about great dialogue (early Batman did a lot of quipping, but it was lame quipping), but Marvel Comics were chatty and witty from day one. You have to get up to speed to appreciate the MCU movies.
Personally, I think it's great you can take a kid to see an MCU movie.
"Iv'e seen moms die before. Not on my watch!" - Batman
lol
I actually love the modern dark and realistic tone the DCEU has over the MCU. The opening to BvS was a nod to Nolan's trilogy, as little boy Bruce rises with the bats it was a "passing of the torch" of sorts. I loved Batman in this film and the Ultimate Edition was way better. Batman's suit was fucking awesome and actually made of cloth a'la The Dark Knight Returns. I see only good things ahead for the DCEU.
instead of showing his parents die they should have shown the joker kill robin and batmans turn
this is exactly what I think they should've done too.
yes!
No way, it would be too interesting. Instead we can watch Lex talk about gods. Fuck, I wanted to punch him when he started the same conversation about gods the third time. Just so that we would understand that his dad was very religious and was punishing Lex a lot because of it. Superman is like a god, so that's why Lex hates him... Is this built up is worth it? What a shitty movie.
Philip Bujalski ideally they should have done a batman stand alone and MoS 2 the justice league then bvs down the road
The death of Robin is WAY too big a story to do in flashbacks as a sub-plot to something else. That has to be THE story. That has to be a movie that introduces Robin, makes us care about him, show us how Batman and Robin can work together (I'm a purist -- I want Robin to be a 12-year-old boy), and THEN have him murdered, so we CARE. What you (and many others) are wishing was stuffed into BvS would merely be fan service for those who already know the story.
I think them finding out how transparent their secret identities have been--all the time they had felt secure and protected--made it more chilling. Plus, it establishes Lex has a long con going on.
Lex babbled about how his dad was strong (and beat him up) while he himself was smart but physically weak. How his brains should have mattered but didn't. THAT is why he hates Superman. He's the smartest man in the world but Superman is strong (and loved). He HAS to try and best him.
I feel like I am the only person in the world who thought that Superman using Martha's name (because Mom wouldn't give Batman a clue as to who she was) and it short circuiting Batman's rage totally made sense. He was raging and the use of "Martha" snapped him into his good guy mode. I've seen stuff like that happen (not with superheroes obviously).
The fact that Bruce is a merciless Punisher style Batman in BvS is completely understandable if you take into account what he's been through. This iteration of Bruce is a broken man, up there in his years, seen family die in front of him, friends die in front of him.. and in his early optimistic days.. Ben's version of Batman was the hero, the Batman we all know. Taking the villains to task and letting the cops clean up the mess. But after everything he's been through.. he's fighting fire with fire. He's not afraid to kill a motherfucker. I love that. We've never seen that on film until now. It takes Superman being revealed by Zod for Bruce to realize.. the blessing in disguise. An enemy at first in his mind, but an ally all along. Bruce now knows... and believes once again that sacrifice and honor, no matter what the cost, is the only way to conquer evil. Thus... The Justice League is born. It's beautiful.
Man that Geoff Johns stuff really didn’t age well lol
the robin suit he keeps is visual storytelling of what pushed him over the edge, thats what i got from that shot
Well, people who aren't comic fans don't know what that suit means. It's not easily recognized as a Robin suit, they don't clarify what happened to Robin, and they don't really show why Batman reacts the way he does. I can give them a pass for it, but the general public probably can't.
Xavi Golden It says haha...jokes on you on it. The general public has to be retarded to be not able to put the two and two together especially considering the joker has become a cult icon.
At the knife scene to the guy in the wall...he went Mark Hamill the Cockknocker all over him
Lmao
I must be the only one who thinks that "he's Lex Luthor" is a valid reason for him to have figured out everyone's identities
"You will believe a man can smile" was just perfect. I hope they manage to steer the ship slightly better in the following movies.
Senator Finch knowing the woman who testified was lying completely changed the whole final court scene. She completely changed her tune on Superman. "Today is a day for truth!" It went from a scene of confrontation to a scene of welcoming and understanding and growth. It made it so much more tragic. It just worked so much better. And then Superman helped SAVE PEOPLE!!!
Why wasn't this in my news feed......WHY!!!!!!!!!**
I know me too
This didn't show up for you guys too?! Oh thank God, I thought it was just me
Same here, even on the side panel, there wasn't a '1' for new videos.
Also I love the dark tone I don't need happy go Lucky DC films like what marvels doing. Keep the tone DC it works.
long time fan from jersey. but just thinking out loud why not make a video commentary of this ultimate edition like you guys did with batman 89. I must have listened to all those movie commentaries like 20 times each. I so enjoy and agree with about 90 percent of the ramblings of you two guys. to tell you the truth I would pay for that if needed.
Kevin Smith said "but this is a kid's movie"
...
No. No it's not.
I finally figured out why people hate on this.
They not only want Marvel fun; they want kid-friendly happy-go-lucky.
Too bad.
it's a movie for grownups.
Correct, people want forced humor and a total jokefest that marvel puts out in every movie.
whfmantis
Don't get me wrong. I can enjoy the more family friendly Marvel flicks too.
But I also like the more serious somber DC movies.
It's all about what you're in the mood for.
But this weird division it's caused is annoying.
It's like most people can't seem to enjoy BOTH.
I am sick of this argument people didn't want a marvel movie they just wanted a good movie that represented the characters it was trying to well which this isn't and didn't do at all.
Stuart McAulay whatever you say.
I saw a superman weighing the pros and cons of being considered a god amongst men. And a Batman driven to the brink in his obsessive war on crime.
Straight out of the comics.
Some people love em. Some people don't.
But if you don't like em, come with a better reason than "didn't representat the characters", because that statement is false.
Aaron Nicewonger Thing is though in the comics Superman doesn't see himself as a God he sees himself as a farm boy trying to do good, it's everyone else who should be seeing him as a God. Also Batman has never been driven to the brink like this in the comics and comic batman has been through a lot more shit and hasn't turned to killing. The Batman from the comics doesn't deal in absolutes like this Batman does. But okay there are better arguments than just what I said. Over use of symbolism like we get in Snyder you think Superman is Jesus can we move on yet? Unfulfilled and unexplained character arcs, poor writing, completely unnecessary side plots, poor character motivations, horrible cgi, lazy dialogue. there's a whole bunch of reasons to dislike this film purely as a film not even looking at the characters within it.
I think Zack Snyder is a great VISUAL director , but fails to sometimes transfer that into storytelling.
BvS drowned when it came to over inflated story, silly plot points (Martha's name) and Jesse Eisenberg's hammy acting (he was not intimidating at all). Zack wanted to tell too much (Superman's death alone could be 1 more movie) in 2 half hours, and I think even he knows that now.
22:30 That was the point of Dick Grayson, to be the funny man to Batman's straight. That's also what made Jason so damn scary was that when he lost it he made Batman worry about what he was going to do.
This movie still gets overly criticized. I don't get it. A lot of nitpicking. The film was great in my opinion. The theatrical cut wasn't so great but the Ultimate edition rocked!
you're wrong but it's OK but your wrong
nah. Stuff like "the plot makes no sense" is not nitpicking.
Superman has nearly no lines. In the ultimate edition, almost to the dot, Superman/Batman don't show up until one HOUR into the film, and they don't fight until TWO hours into the film. Again, almost on the dot.
Batman does nothing but stew and be mad. Superman does nothing but grimace and brood. The film is COMPLETELY disinterested in telling a story about Superman OR Bamtan and is instead entirely obsessed with dealing with Superman as only an iconographic symbol. And even in that, he exists only to be dumped on by the film because Snyder thinks it's cool to pee on symbols of goodness.
Batman's turn around was justified perfectly. I dont think many people understand that in the Knightmare sequence, Mad Superman tells bruce "She was my world, and you took her from me". ("she" isnt specified as Lois at the time) so when the Martha reveal comes up it occurs to batman that if he stops superman from saving her, the death of Martha is probably what turns him evil. It also connects with bruce on a very personal level, as the death of his own Martha is what created the arguably psychotic Batman alter-ego. This is why, after realising Superman isnt actually a bad guy, Bruce is so dead set on making sure "Martha wont die tonight" so that he doesn't have a reason to turn on mankind and his visions don't come true.
I feel like I may be the only one who thinks that Lex Luthor was not only physically abused, but also probably sexually abused. Eisenberg (as Lex of course) mutters a few phrases (albeit in a quasi-religious way, though Luthor was religious at least as a kid), that really make me think he was. He is filled with an undercurrent of rage at the world, at God and now at Superman over what happened to him as he grew up. The violence he suffered under was a duration event, not a one off thing. Lex was shaped into a person that only found justice when he made it for himself, and he only felt safe when he had everyone over the barrel.
That kind of rage and grasping need to control to protect doesn't usually make sense in the way it manifests. I had to watch the movie a few times to get it, but I'm ok with the inexplicable hatred for Superman. We all need someone or something to loathe, that hatred helps define our individually superior moral hierarchy of rules.
And then you add his age, life inexperience (intelligence will only fill the gap so far) and nearly unlimited resources and you have an unpredictable person who can chose to fully embrace their obsession...and who is going to tell Lex no? There isn't anyone or anything he won't sacrifice to achieve his goals. The few who do, end up dead. And he casually murdered a Federal Senator...how many times has he done that kind of thing before?
Well Snyder was being interviewed when he was making Watchmen, and said His version of BatMan would get raped in prison.. so im sure Lex.. maybe Alfred and Perry White too all get raped.. in the SnyderVerse.
Maybe the death of Robin is the thing that sends Batman over the edge. That would've been cool to see.
That is exactly the angle I am hoping the solo Batfleck movie takes, and Under The Red Hood would be a great story to spring it from.
As much as I want this, I highly doubt that's the case. If you look at Robin's weapon that is on his suit when Bruce looks at it, you can see the blades on it. I'm not exactly sure what kind of weapon it is, but I know in the concept art released for this movie you can tell it is a weapon designed for killing. So I'm fairly certain Robin was a killer before he died. Along with. Batman.
It looked like a crowbar, which is probably what was used to kill Jason Todd, rather what Jason Todd used.
Galen Marek
I can't remember the weapon in BvS off the top of my head (I'm trying to patiently make my next viewing the UE on Blu Ray) But a crowbar would make sense. In Under The Red Hood, the story it seemed that scene in BvS was hinting at, Joker actually beats Robin to near death with a crowbar.
Galen Marek Look up an image of Robin's Weapon in BvS. It's a halbert with an axe like blade attached to one side and a sharp point on the other side. You can tell it's a weapon designed to kill. I wish it was just his staff.
The problem with watching the theatrical cut is that you sense that scenes are missing, and you can fill some blanks, but the flow is bullshit and I shouldn't have to constantly figure out what wasn't given to me in those missing scenes. The Ultimate Edition basically just confirmed the scenes you imagined were cut. It's a different film.
I know I'm late, but as a MOS and BvS fan, I really appreciate your guys' critique of the movie because, unlike most, (1) you guys are FAIR, (2) you guys respect the work put into it, and (3) you don't take a dump on Zack Snyder as if he deserves it. Thank you.
Well .... hey no offense to Kevin Smith but I like Zack Snyder movies a lot more than his including BvS Ultimately Edition. BvS also isn't that dark and is a much needed contrast to Marvel. By Justice League the tone would naturally be brighter anyways because of the new personalities coming in, I think the press and critics give themselves too much credit that DC is making changes to appease. Though they did probably invite them to get the word out and so maybe this time press and critics won't try to sabotage the movie out the gate, I'm sure DC will keep the tone the fans like and responded to overall.
DC has always said that they were going to make Justice League lighter in tone.
According to both of the Snyder's, the reaction to BvS is causing them to lighten the tone of Justice League even more than previously planned.
The scenes that were shown to people invited to the set sound like how people describe Marvel when talking negatively about them.
Basically, don't expect a darker tone.
Liking his movies isn't a prerequisite to liking his critiques. He's bloody smart and I am just happy that he loves the genre and analyses it to the nth. Plus Marc Bernardin is an excellent partner in this.
Bluemew1234 It's Zack Snyder, the darkness will be there, just probably slightly lighter in tone.
Lisa Wintler-Cox They're ok..but guys in that older demographic are least likely to approve of this new direction DC 's taking with their iconic characters. They'll be naturally biased.
William Netherly True, but I believe them to be an exception to that rule. Kevin and Marc have never seemed grumbly "Get off my lawn" kind of guys. But anyway, young and mentally nimble isn't the same thing.
About batman being so brutal, i know you've read DKR and treat it like the literary masterpiece it is. but this came to me after I was really baked the other day. not only has Zack Snyder used DKR but also elements from All-star Batman. The psychopath retelling of how Dick Grayson became Robin. top that of with this Batman not only being grizzled, he has lost a Robin(Todd I hope) and top that off with aliens literary destroying the world.
I mean you have to be made from fairydust, puppies and rainbows if you could smile and be happy after witnessing all that and be powerless.
anyway that's my two cents on the matter.
According to Snyder, he's making movies that are accurate to the "true canon" (his words) and that the characters are exactly as they are in the comics.
He isn't saying they're like they are in DKR, All-Star Batman, or any alternate universe; this is how he thinks characters like Batman, Superman, and Luthor are in the main universe.
You guys took me straight back to the good old days with blue beetle saying "one punch, ONE PUNCH".
Lex was working on the Meta Human Thesis. He dedicated his obsessive genius and resources into looking into these people. Not that hard to wrap your head around. Just pay attention to what you're watching.
did you not listen to Lex's God speech or about not being saved from his father's fist when he was a child?? That was the explanation and all you really need to know. Open your ears man. Better yet put the bloody subtitles on and read the dialogue.
So because Lex is angry at God for not saving him from his father, he hates Superman and creates a nearly unstoppable rage monster because.....why exactly?
+Bluemew1234 lets start from the top. That began the motivation yes. Everything else is a well engineered plan. The whole Africa plot is designed to make the government and public hate or plant seeds of hate for superman. Lex then uses this to say to senator finch that he may have a deterrant in the form of a green rock that could not only keep him under control but kill him if neccissary, if she allows the import license. That gets vetoed by the senator but one of her aides decides otherwise. He's then granted further access to zod's body and the ship. That's probably where he learns a lot of Kryptonian physiology, science, history of the universe etc. Probably aslo where he learns Superman cant see through lead. He then sees Keefes arrest, him and the lead lined wheelchair bomb to further the hate not only against superman but to enrage Batman aswell. The idea being that if the government wont take down Superman, Batman will. What isnt clear is did he know Batman would steal the kryptonite from his lab or did that throw a wrench into the process because the trump card was if Batman fails was Doomsday. Martha was kidnapped to make certain Superman played his part. What wasnt expected by Lex was the resolution of Batman & Superman's conflict and the arrival of wonder woman.
+Darrell Hardy and in regards to the kryptonite again Lex's plan may very well have been have Superman kill Batman. Then use the kryptonite to kill both Doomsday and superman making himself appear a hero. That is if he concocted the story that Superman released Doomsday. It's his ship so to the mass public it could be plausable
I understood what his entire plan was. Didn't need to repeat it.
Why would the Kryptonian ship have information about weaknesses of Kryptonians with super powers? Zod barely seemed to understand that he'd have superpowers, so why would Kryptonians have a deep understanding of what they could and couldn't see through if it was all new to them?
If Lex just discovered it himself, how was it that he found out something that thousands of years worth of Kryptonian science apparently never figured out in about a week and a half?
How exactly does it make sense that the wheelchair bomb would enrage Batman? It literally only worked because Batman found out about the letters from the past 2 years about 5 minutes earlier.
If that was his plan, how was he able to manipulate Batman into receiving old mail at the exact moment he needed him to receive it?
His plan was always to have Batman steal the kryptonite. It might be questionable in the theatrical cut, but it seems like what they always intended.
The problem with Kryptonite is that, by his own admission, Luthor seemed to have started pushing for Batman to fight Superman, then started pushing Keefe, *and then* discovered Kryptonite during the clean up of Metropolis.
And the problem with everything you posted is that *you never explain Luthor's motivation in any way.*
The best we get from the movie is that he hates God because his dad beat him and he pushes those feelings onto Superman.
Dare I say, the old explanation that he blames Superboy for his hair falling out makes more sense.
+Bluemew1234 do you really need to have everything laid out on a plate to you to explanation why Lex did what he did?? Seriously. You forget it's Lex's father who had the painting of angels and demons in his study. Who's to say Luthor Snr isnt the religious nut that Kev and his friend talk about in the above video?? As for the ship you agian forget in Man of Steel Jor-El's AI came online and told Kal of his powers etc. Did you not think that the knowledge would filter down to the ships memory bank and kryptonian robots too?? Also Lex studied zod's body. It's possible learned of Kryptonian weaknesses from there aswell. and like i say the bomb served a double purpose. One for Batman (with the letters) one for the public. Hence the burning of the Superman dummy in the extended cut.
Am I the only one who remembers that Martha was his fathers last words?
"Jesus with a cape and in space"... that would have made Sunday School about a thousand times more enjoyable.
An observation about the characterization of Lex Luthor. He is the real alien here, not Superman. Not literally of course but he is the complete antithesis of Superman in every way.
It feels like a lot of plot points in BvS were heavily implied and a lot of people didn't get it because of this. Not saying the film is without it's flaws or that that isn't one but... I'm not sure how I was gonna end this sentence.
yeah I know. They say "well, if it was implied but if I didn't get it they failed" but that's only true if they are very good at picking up on subtleties. I have just decided that if I see it, then telling me it's not really there unless they see it doesn't work as an argument. Sometimes I think it would be useful for some movies to have a commentary for people who don't get it--like to teach the art of reading subtlety.
There's clever implying which works if it goes along with the tone and serves a purpose for the plot of a film and then there's the "No time to explain anything, lets imply as much as we can because we have a whole universe to set up in one movie "implying that doesn't work that well to me.
And there's let me thonk you over the head (#whyIdon'twatchanyoftheCSIs) type of explanation so everyone in the cheap seats gets it. Then the wha' the wha', what the $#@% is going on? Why is that giraffe invading Parliament? Did that man really just give birth to a Nissan Sentra? non-explanation.
In between there's a whole lotta real estate.
Maybe most people needed to be spoon-fed with on the nose dialogue about character motivations
Austin McCormick, maybe they also have to be made to feel they should be able/learning how to do this.
They should have focused less on his parents death, and shown some of his and Robin's relationship and the death of Robin. it would have given a better understanding of why Batman is killing and broken. Cause he wanted to help Robin but ultimately failed him. Death of Superman was rushed. and there was no emotional tie to it. he wasn't the kind of hero Superman was in the comics when he died. and he can never be that hero, because the writers of the movies don't know how to write Superman. So, movie still sucks in my Opinion. and before you asshats try and say I'm not a real fan, I've read comics for 26 years. I learned to read by reading comic books and my dad used to read them to us as bed time stories. I grew up with them. I know how characters should be written, sometimes the comics get them wrong, putting the wrong writers on the wrong characters.
Well said, Mr. Grimes. I also grew up reading them and have seen the wrong people get their hands on a character. I just saw a movie(BvS) where the wrong people where in charge of a lot of things.
I refuse to believe that dumb CGI monster was "Doomsday".
In the DOS comics, Doomsday comes after Superman, they have an epic battle and Superman sacrifices himself to save Metropolis.
In BvS the dumb CGI monster is engineered by Lex as a back-up plan, fights Superman for five minutes then stabs him with that regenerated bone-shard. If they wanted to paint the dumb CGI monster as some random menace created by Lex, that's cool, but that that was NOT DOOMSDAY AND NEVER WILL BE!. Hell, even Smallville did a better job with their Doomsday.
I think the focus on his parents and Clark and Louise's relationship was meant to potentially set up the Flashpoint Paradox if they introduce it in the Justice League movies. Gods Among Us and Flashpoint Paradox would be perfect to set up the DC Universe with Darkseid, Luthor, and the new Joker as the first et of Villains.
+Kevin Smith Lex hated God because he felt God never protected him from his abusive father and Superman is the closest thing to a physical "God" to get his revenge on.
Martha Scene explanation. Bruce hated Superman for orphaning that girl in the beginning like he was orphaned. It was like him watching his origin again, helpeless, only this time as a grown man who had been batman, and it made no difference. Now he realised all those years of fighting crime were ineffective since he was right back where he started. THIS is what pushed him over the edge. It was clearly shown and pruposefully juxtaposed with his origin so you get that Bruce's hatred is personal not logical (anyone with common sense could see Bruce's excuses to fight superman were unsubstantiated and circumstantial at best including Alfred). Anyway because of that moment Superman became comparable to Joe Chill to Bruce. When Superman reminded him of his parents death again his first reaction was to get angry because he felt like he was being taunted with his failure; not being able to stop the senseless death of the little girl's parents like he had no purpose and nothing he did mattered (sound familiar that is because it is Joker's philosphy and knowing that Bruce is going to fight like hell to avoid admitting Joker is right even if it means forcing Superman to be his enemy so his reasoning makes sense "the only way the world makes sense if you force it to".) Needless to say Bruce was fighting Superman for his own selfish reasons hidden by the agenda of ridding the world of a potential threat. When he was told it was Clark's mother's name then he realised Clark was geniunely trying to stop him from failing again. Clark's words HELPED Bruce save someone from being orphaned which is what started him on his path of batman both times only the second time it was clouded by his cynical word view not the innocence of a child. In one sentence Clark allowed Bruce's mission to be validated. He gave back meaning to Batman. THAT and Barman realsing he was about to become Joe Chill which would be the actual point of no return, is why Batman was able to turn because Superman gave him hope that his mission wasn't pointless. It's kinda simple but long to explain because there are several layers to Bruce's anger and thought process which are heavily related to his parent's death which is why it was shown again in this film.
Hey Kevin I loved the 3 hour extended edition as well as Suicide Squad. I know there are many haters but I'm just glad to see the live action movies I've always wanted to see. And just F'n wow! Ben Affleck is the best Batman I've seen. His Bruce Wayne characterization is amazing and the saving Martha fight was something straight out of an Arkham Asylum fight. Just AMAZING. Thank you Kevin for all you do. Keep it up Brother!
ironic that it turns out geoff johns was the reason why justice league failed..
I may not love BVS, but I enjoy it immensely. I still stand by the Idea that Bruce, Clark, Diana, Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman are all elements of post 9/11 America. I think the ground level shot of the building collapsing, and the dust billowing very clearly says that these are American icons, and because of that, they are reflecting who we've been for so long. I think Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy explored that too. It's not a one for one commentary. Their actions aren't mapping to post 9/11 America's actions, but their motivations, be they fear or hope or anger or what have you, all are clearly drawn from who we've been being for 15 years. It isn't a coincidence that Bruce damn near verbatim quotes Dick Cheney. It isn't a coincidence that fear of the other, and intentionally dehumanizing our opponents are big components of what dehumanized Bruce. It isn't a coincidence that WWI, which drove the isolationism that kept America out of WWII for so long, is what drives Diana into isolation, or that we have capitol inquests into Superman's actions. It isn't happenstance that Media is always what portrays the public opinion, and that it doesn't always match the reality. It's a treatise on how we have to let the better angles of our nature prevail. How we can't allow our fear and our anger to control ourselves. When Perry White says the American conscience died with "Robert, Martin, and John" he's talking about RFK, MLK, and JFK. And it is no coincidence that the Death of Superman shows the front page of the Daily Planet from the day President Kennedy was assassinated. They weren't the golden times we wished they were, but for their faults, those were men who believed in America, in the ideal, and that's what Superman is. He is the ideal. Stripped of politics and all of the nationalism, Superman is that ideal. His death can't mean that we sacrifice the ideal, it burdens us to inherit the mantel. That what makes Batman a Hero, not a vigilante. I'm not sure this Batman ever was a Hero, not until this. After this though, he takes that mantle. He squares up to that immense burden of greatness and he accepts it. And I think that's a big part of what this movie has to be about. It's about inheriting the legacy of our forefathers, for all their faults, and building upon it.
Also: Who made the final theatrical cut decisions?
Also Also: I like Batman when he is serious/snarky. he can't be cracking jokes, so much as being sarcastic or sarcastically enervated.
Also Triple Also: Geoff Johns is still really far away from my favorite. Let him have a voice in the room, but make sure he doesn't have too much. Geoff Johns has dropped the ball on a whole bunch of stuff. He does good work, but he so isn't the right person for being the big dog in the DC room. He's good with specific characters, but he's not good for others.
And Kevin Smith needs to have more confidence in his movies. I swear I bruised a rib laughing during Dogma, and I cried watching the confession in Chasing Amy. Cut yourself some slack, and give yourself a little credit.
that's what I've been saying. batman is character that's so well liked that we need to experience what made him give up. we want to be there with him. that's one of the many things that could've been easily fixed.
The problem with this movie is it was rushed.
Before Marvel got to Civil War, many of its main heroes had 3 movies under their belt.
It's just a pattern of Hollywood rushing their movies. Just look at Return of the King; that movie was rushed to hell because they hadn't made 3 movies for Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir, Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Smeagol, Deagol and Tom Bombadil.
@@zhengyingli LMAO! you must have a brain the size of a mustard seed.
@@Oyimsbaba What an odd endorsement of the size of mustard seed.
Because no one had a clue what Cap's, Thor's or Iron Man's origins were. They already knew that for Batman. And that didn't stop Iron Man 2 from including War Machine, Black Widow and Nick Fury without giving them origins anyway. Wonder Woman was introduced as a mysterious character in BVS and explained in her own movie the next year. Comic books introduce characters that way ALL THE TIME.
I saw you Kevin Smith on the talking dead.... you were awesome on that. great vid.... this movie has me thinking.... nice that you guys shared your thoughts. great insights
I think the Ultimate cut improves Lois' story the most. I actually enjoyed her investigation a lot more without it being hacked into tiny pieces and barely there.
I know this is a super-old comment but here are a few more lines explaining Lex:
“Power can be innocent”
“God cannot be all-good if he’s all-powerful. And if he’s all-powerful, he can’t be all-good
“Now God bends to my will”
Fun is overrated, I would rather have a good movie than a fun movie
Something that I can learn from.
Unfortunately BvS is neither of them lol. Sorry, just my opinion.
I heard all the horrible stuff about the theatrical cut so I didn't see it so I have nothing to judge this addition to, But i enjoyed this edition. Agree on not liking Lex knows who everyone is. He had video on everyone of them so he knows everyone. like how did he get all this
absolutely baffled. I did the same as you and I found the Ultimate Edition hard to even get through. I had to take breaks just to make it all the way through and it was painful.
He also gave them really cool logos. There are so many times this movie dipped into the uncanny divide, I lost count.
Well, it clearly shows that Snyder maybe is a good Artist, but not very bright man... He's not Nolan WB. Don't let him have an access to the script production.
They should of said f it and released this version to begin with take out whatever made it rated r I'm still confused on that. This was still pg-13 I have seen worse on Family Guy then this movie. People have no problem sitting in a theater for 3 hours if it's good.
Chris Doughty People oftentimes don't undersatnd the way the rating system works. It's not based on subject matter, it's based around what is literally being show and how long it is shown. So many times a director will just shorten a scene of a character getting beat up, say, in order to get a friendlier rating. So the R version might be the exact same content, just Batman punches a guy for 20 seconds intsead of 6.
I think Lex hated superman so much because of the fact that he made him feel impotent. You're talking about a a guy who had so much hate toward someone who we looked at like a God, I'm speaking of his father. Superman represented everything he hated within his father, yet also served to make him feel just as powerless.
Look at Kevin's silent bob mullet! '95 all over again, beaaaauty
ALL they had to do was just call it BATMAN/SUPERMAN: Dawn of Justice. Would have given them soooo much more freedom to build their world, but NO they put themselves in a corner by calling it Batman V Superman: Dawn of Franchise Milking (okay, its not that, but its basically that).
You offering handsome?
+Tom of Steel
Oh, look! It's Snyder's left nut
This finally feels like a properly honest review of BvS.
Like Kevin is FINALLY done walking on eggshells and moving past just being happy that he saw these characters together in a movie.
Finally ready to recognize and call out all the really dumb shit about this movie, just like the rest of us.
Interesting that it's the Ultimate Edition that finally snapped him out of it...
The thing is, too many people had a knee jerk "OMG it's not like the comics" reaction to Batman. From a psychological standpoint, he was very well done. Bruce Wayne suffers from severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that gets aggravated when innocent people are killed, causing him to react more brutally against criminals who prey on the innocent and against from he alien who he doesn't see as human in any way. When Clark begs Batman to save Martha, hearing his mother's name in such a stressful situation triggers a PTSD moment. When Lois says that Martha is Superman's mother, everything that Superman was trying to tell him sinks in and he realizes that his unrelenting rage almost resulted in the deaths of two innocents.
I actually think that Robin's death is what pushed Batman over the edge. This iteration of Batman starts out with a very cynical view of the world. He sounds like a man who has just seemingly given up on his crusade against crime. The only reason he continues to be Batman is because that's who he is. It's in his blood to want to beat the living shit out of criminals, and he would rather go down fighting than do nothing at all. He's on a very self-destructive path that can only end in his eventual death. I feel that the Justice League signifies a rebirth for Ben Affleck's Batman; a restored faith in people.
Seriously, how did no one catch the fact that Batman tried not to let the same thing that happened to his mom, happen to Clark's mom? Especially lunch-box over here? Everyone is making jokes about how their mothers having the same name, made no sense for Bruce to stop fighting Superman. My cousin's 12 year old kid totally got it.
I can't believe how many people never got the "not again" Martha thing, its not really about the name, its about finding his purpose again
On the Lex Luthor religious fanatic point, I think you guys may have gotten the interpretation backwards. Lex IS portrayed as a religious fanatic in a sense but its not that his belief in Jesus or God is threatened by Superman but his belief that Jesus or God DO NOT exist that is being threatened by Superman. What makes him this way isn't that his dad hated him but that his dad subjected him to horrors and a God figure did not save him. He doesn't believe in saviors and the sudden arrival of one causes an existential meltdown that drives his actions in the film. Not saying that the film is perfect but the clues for answers are there.
where i desagree with you guys is that lex had his very own motivations, he even says it out loud "he needs to be the most powerful person in earth" and he is a genius and a psicopath and remember this is kinda his origin story, at the end of justice league you can see hin more centered and self controled
It doesn't fix some of the things that you were talking about...but there is plenty it does fix. If anything, it fixes lex's plan so it makes some sort of sense, it also fixes the fact that the theatrical felt like a bunch of scenes just slapped together because maybe part of the scene that tied it into the movie or helped it flow into the next scene was gone. Mainly because that's exactly what happened. haha. Agree there was nothing in there that would have warranted it being an R, but they probably should have just released this version instead to begin with. This at least felt like a movie.
R Rating was marketing. Batman says shit. Someone else says fuck. And there is some blood. That blood looked like they slapped it in there just for the blu-ray. It was marketing to bandwagon off Deadpool success.
That being said, I do agree some things were fixed. Lex's plan is better fleshed out, but his motives are still jumbled. As Kevin and Mark said, why does he hate superman in this story? If he thinks Superman is the devil from the sky, why does he create his own devil? The Lex I know is a very astute business man who is addicted to power. This Lex is a lunatic. Lex is still one of the biggest issues I have with this movie.
It doesn't matter if his plans make sense or not. Do you really think his story is interesting enough to make a movie about it? It takes 7 minutes for them to fight, everything else is some kind of stupid writer's mess about gods. It's Batman V Superman, surely you could just tell us something more interesting.
Yes his plan needs to make sense. When we look at the most successful superheroes what separates them from the rest of the superhero world? Good Villains, your bad guy makes your good guy. Lex Luther also just happens to be one of the best villains in comic books after Dr. Doom and the Joker. When we see him we need to root for our heroes to defeat him, to have an emotional connection to his defeat, but what we got was a decidedly meh villain. Think of it this way, if we removed Lex entirely chopped out all kidnapping nonsense and just said that Batman finally had enough of supermans shit, and that the kryptonian ship was able to get zod's DNA due to some idiot scientist would that make the movie distinctly better/worse/neither. If the answer is better or neither and i'm firmly in the neither camp here then why did we spend so much time with Lex, it was a waste of film and a villain you could use later.
i loved batman vs superman! I loved man of steel!
I think you guys bring up a really good point about Batman's motivation throughout this movie and that we needed to see him before he had this "death wish" that you called it. One of the biggest problems that I had with the opening was the scene showing the murder of Bruce's parents. For one thing, it didn't add anything to the story because it just showed us stuff anyone familiar with Batman already knows (which is everyone on the planet-as you rightly said). While I was listening to you talk, I thought about what they could have replaced that with (they even could've replaced the scene in Metropolis from Man of Steel, in my opinion): they could have shown a younger Batman, before he has the death wish, fighting with Robin, but as a result, somehow, of Batman refusing to break his one rule, the Joker kills Robin. That would have nicely set up the homicidal version of Batman that we got in this movie.
From what I recall, Lex Luthor has never gave a f*** about who the identity of Batman and Supes. I hated that in the movie that he knew.
Lex's motivation is pretty easy to understand. He has a god complex, and he hates the existence of Superman.
It's hilarious they praise Geoff John's and say he's gonna save Snyder's Justice League, yet he's responsible along with Joss Whedon fucking up Justice League. I'm glad Geoff John's is far away from the films as possible.
If louis can track clarks movements and have suspicions in MoS, why is hard t comprehend Lex with all at his disposal can't dig deeper and link clark to superman once he world is introduced.
Instead of the parents being killed scene (which is the most widely known backstory piece), it should have been filled other events that made Batman so blood thirsty.
If we like disaster porn in our animated shows and movies, why do we reject it when it's in a movie?
If Jar Jar Luthor is still in it, then I am not going to enjoy it.
Jar jar Luthor? Quit exaggerating
Ian Jackson Yousa know wata dee oldeest lie ina merica ees Seenator?
***** nobody cares
Jar Jar Luthor, perfect analogy
He played it like he was a shitty Arrow villain
Really dislike the fact people are being like "Steppenwolf? Really?" like, no one knew who Loki was and now he's the MCU's best villain. I'm not gonna judge till I see him in action. Also, the JL movies are gonna be like the avenger movies whete, they're sequels and connected but they're not two parters.
Theres a few differences here, but i do agree that we should wait to see the next few movies before jumping to conclusions.
Firstly the big bad in marvel isn't Loki its Thano's who is much more widely known then Loki, but lets talk about loki.
We don't meet Loki as the primary villain in the avengers, we meet him as the baddy in Thor. While Thor might not be the best known comic it is primarily based on norse mythology and as such most people can buy if there's a Thor and Odin running around in a movie then why not a Loki and mythologically speaking Loki's usually the bad guy, not a big jump.
Only after Loki being the villain in Thor do we get to see him as the main antagonist in the avengers, going into that movie we know who he is, what his motivations are, and a lot of backstory that the previous movie let us in on, the set up of Thor allows for Loki to be the beloved supervillain.
In the DCU, we don't really have any of that build up on steppenwolf, all we get is the shot like the first time we see thanos in the marvel movies post credits. And in the MCU they are taking a real long fucking time developing Thanos's character in the background, we don't have any of that with steppenwolf yet. So yes i do agree that we need to see how this goes before we pass judgement, this shot of steppenwolf does seem a bit odd.
+Adrijana Radosevic emo manbitches?
Bingo.
And puns are bad. Loki's a mythical figure, Steppenwolf's a band. It's a great name to make a villain, but not with that association.
Magneto is named after a motorcycle component, but guess how many people really make that connection? A Wolverine is an animal and a Canadian National Guard unit. Again, not original but not distracting from the actual substance in the way that a quintet bad girl unit called "The Spice Girls" would be.
"if i stay there can be no party"
I remember reading that Lex's ultimate reason for hating Superman, and he tells this to Superman's face, is that he hates that Superman is the absolute potential to what a being can become. He hates the limitations he represents, so yeah it's about power, but it's more about disappointment.
There's no rationalizing Lex Luther in this movie. His character is horribly written and performed.
I disagree about the performance. I think it was abysmally written, I think it was well acted for what it was. It was a just a terrible, terrible role.
Jaz, I tend to agree with you. Eisnberg is a good actor. He did a good job of acting. The character is just horribly written and constructed.
I don't know. Looking at him, his mannerisms, twitches, movements... He was more akin to a poor man's joker/ riddler than a calm and well-oiled calculating machine. I understand that it can be appealing to some, but I found it very off-putting.
Instead of taking or mixing stories from comic books they wanted to create something unique. They created an unique piece of shit.
I still don't get what his plan was for after Doomsday kills everyone outside of die himself? And superman can find and save Lois from half way around the world in seconds, but not his non-gagged and very conscious mom, apparently he isn't quick enough to do it before they kill her but 10 mins later Batman is fast enough?
There is very little logic in the movie however I do think the ultimate edition does make some things (batmans motivations etc) a little clearer.
The ultimate edition turns an awful movie into a bad movie, it is an improvement but nowhere near enough to salvage it.
For me, the Ultimate Edition cleaned up a lot of things an it should have been the theatrical release. For example, in the theatrical release when the Capitol Building gets destroyed Superman doesn't hang around to help people and it was very un-Superman like. In the Ultimate Edition, he saves people from inside the Capitol Building. A very small change like that makes me look at Superman differently in the film. It's little things like that which made the Ultimate Edition way more enjoyable.
"You will believe a man can smile." Lol!
I love you guys but watching this again I just can't help but get annoyed by "it's a kid's movie." It really isn't and it's clear that WB wanted it to be when it wasn't, to me it's clearly meant to be for adults and young adults who know the material well and don't need things explained to them. Yes it's different from the comics but if this were just a graphic novel run, none of these changes would even be an issue. Having to explain Darkseid to the audience and/or characters would have felt clunky as he's clearly a foreboding threat they know nothing about, it's a better story element to not explain any of it until the plot gets there.
Yeah, Wolverine pops up on the last page of Hulk in his first appearance for one panel. This is just a classic tease. You're not supposed to know who Steppenwolf is in this. He's a man of mystery that will be explained later. I tried reading Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen when I was 9. Trust me, not all comics are for kids. I had no clue what was going on in them, LOL.
Thinking about why batman goes evil killing...perhaps the Robin death they kinna mention...
I guess it's confusing cuz how every thing in the film is so spoon fed to you with the dozen dream sequences that not having Robin's death at least be mentioned in dialogue is off. You get a dream of Bruce's parents getting murdered and the Bruce being lifted up by bats, but no flashback of Robin's death to show him become a villain?
They may be hampered by there being a young "Joker" in the Suicide Squad.
I hope that they make SS Joker, a mentally unhinged Jason Todd as a copy cat, or at least leave it as a possibility.
Would help explain SS Jokers use of self referential tattoos.
Robert Smart Joker is a year older than Batman. Google it. I don't like the tattoos though.
Darrell Bales, maybe, or maybe him pausing by Robins outfit and then moving on wasn't enough information except for readers. Some stuff was like "we know, you True Believers (I know, Marvel, but it applies) will be #$@ hurt if we don't reference this, so here, 2 seconds of a reference only you will get to prove we get it too")
Adrijana Radosevic Google Jared Leto's age... one year older than Ben.... this isn't fan fiction
Can't believe they missed that it's implied Batman crossed that line with the loss of Jason Todd. You see the memorial in the cave, now is done it good? ....no, not really but it's there.
24:55 uh yeah kevin. Just like in real life. A man can be in a rage, or can be killing people and easily forget that those people have mothers and families. Like in war. You've gone out and have already killed 3 enemies today. Then when you're about to casually kill your 4th enemy as if it's routine. you start hearing him cry for his mother. It's something you knew all along. Yet it hit's you with hard clarity in that one moment.You think it's weird someone would forget such a thing? Or to be taken aback when you remember? It happens in real life ALL THE TIME.
Are people still hung up on Batman killing people? Really? Y'all can't look past that or understand why he would?
because he doesnt fucking kill people. how hard is that to understand. thats what makes him batman. and to completely ignore it for.....reasons they never really say is assinine.
+Kevin Strom When he's older he usually accepts the notion of killing this is an older batman he doesn't care about the deaths of criminals...
+Revstarallstar which I would be more okay with if they didn't do such a crappy jib explain his motivations.
I think what happened is: Fans are always like fuck some backstory we don't need to know how batman became batman or who he was with on his adventures. And to an extreme the writer and studio took that and tried to please the fans by leaving out too much info on Robin making most of the plot an easter egg. "Robin statue, it's burnt he's not there why does it have a harsh remark on it....JOKER". Other people will not get it....
But that's just the Robin subtext that I got
We get it, we understand why, and we can sympathize with the writers for making those decisions, we just don't like the decisions they made. They're fixing the problem in future movies, and they've actually apologized, so I don't think we should give the writers any more crap.
having seen the movie and watched numerous reviews and critiques i have to conclude the unpopularity of the dceu stuff so far is theyre asking too much of an audience whose brains have rotted from overconsumption of marvel punch em ups. i just hope the idiots dont ruin what is looking like an interesting superpeople universe. also, WONDER WOMAN, so yeah...i mean shes more interesting on every level than the sum of all marvel characters ever.
luthor is the atheist/scientist equivilent of a religious nut-everything must conform to his vision. but more than anything hes been pretty consistantly shown to be meglomaniacal on a trump level, his loathing of superman comes primarily from his finding the idea of someone more powerful than him is the highest insult to him.
they probably went with steppenwolf because thanos from the marvel stuff was a direct ripoff of darksied, idiots being idiots if dc used darksied for their movies (at least until people get past the haters and the challenge of having to think a tiny bit to follow a plot), stupid people would think dc was knocking off marvel. soeaking of thanos, the avengers are pretty pathetic if they cant handle him cause Squirrel Girl beat him by herself.
Very simplistic analysis of the movie by Smith and Bernardin. Lex was beaten by his father, who lived in a totalitarian regime where the leaders passed themselves as gods. Power cannot be innocent and Superman must therefore be shown as flawed.
If they make a prequel with Jason Todd it may make a difference. People would understand Batman being so serious. They could also explain more about Lex.
Eli Snyder played Robin
when he said BvS has no heart, he's probably never watched any of his movies
I have to laugh at all the edgy teens in these comments...
Kevin had to pull quite a few solid turds from his ass to make this movie sound somewhat decent. And you can tell he felt uncomfortable praising it..
If anyone's wondering about Lex Luthor's motives, he spells it out with one sentence about halfway through the movie. "The bitersweet pain among men is having knowledge but no power". He has all the knowledge, no power, and his voice even cracks as he says it. Eisenberg delivers the line like an expert. I honestly find him to be the least boring version of Luthor, but I never was much of a DC fan so feel free to disagree
to understand why eisenberg is the best LL to date you have to be familiar with roth in rob roy
keith guinan Lex has an Inferiority Complex. He can’t comprehend that the god-like Superman is both all-powerful and all-good. That’s his entire motivation for pitting Superman against Batman. If Batman wins- Superman is not all-powerful. If Batman loses- Superman is not all-good.
He tells Superman “They [People] NEED to see the fraud you are.”
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Lex hates Supes for two reasons or should i say two paradoxes that Superman's presence creates. 1. Lex adheres to knowledge is power, but in the face of Superman's Power Lex's knowledge doesn't mean much. 2. People believe Supes to be a benevolent God, so Lex sets out to prove Supes' isn't all good or all powerful. Lex Succeeds at the latter. I think the core of the reason people dislike the movie is Supes takes 3 strait Losses: the Senate Hearing Bombing, losing to Batman, being killed by Doomsday.