B&W 802 Speaker Repair & Demonstration
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- čas přidán 4. 04. 2020
- I was excited to receive my mint pair of B&W 802 Matrix Series 3 speakers. But when I opened the box, something was very wrong. Watch as I investigate and fix the problem, all while improving B&W’s original design.
#speakers #electronicsrepair #stereo #stereorepair #speakerrepair - Věda a technologie
Check out my other video about the first stereo cassette deck ever made! czcams.com/video/xFlG4m0uqUo/video.html
I have a similar set og B&W 802s3 and in perfect condition. But, as they get older, there's a small sagging taking place on the units, and that can lead to an ever so slight rubbing in the air gap. So with a few years in between, one can just undo the units and turn them upside down, and tighten them again.
On a different note, modern electronics have developed and amongst that are the resistors, which are sand cast on these. They vary pretty much during playback as they heat up and down. The solution is to have new set of cross overs, not to change the sound characteristics, but to renew components. If one is not into that, there are a few different offerings out there. I found an american guy, a german guy and of course Troels Gravesen from Denmark (loudspeaker constructor). I do not know the names on the foreign guys, but they all look serious in their offerings as to components, design, values etc. In the process you also get rid of the connectors from the wires to the sockets - directly soldering. As fas as I know, North Creek went out of business years ago. A pity.
Further, despite optimising my listening room, measuring delays from reflections etc. I find that all 802 speakers, including these 802s3 benefit from a slight lift off the floor. I ordered some US made sound anchors, and they gave a firmer bass thereby making it easier to note the various deep bass sounds, and made the sound come more free of the speakers. All in all a good investment and highly recommended. You'll have the same sound, just a lot more of it, bigger stage, lower noise floor and more details and firmer bass, more relaxed and detailed midrange and treble. It will then play up the the modern version and even in my humble view surpass that (debatable) as it's more natural. I mention that because I find the new version as well as many other present day speakers focus on details and transients and attack, rather than the velvet that binds together the music.
Thanks for sharing.
Kind regards.
Excellent repair and modification...thanks....As a massive B&W fanboy I found the chipboard baffle to be a object of wonder.
I had a pair of these for years in cherry finish. I loved them... I upgraded to the N802's eventually but loved every minute of owning the Matrix's. I bought them from the original owner, he had all the double boxes, manuals, tags, everything. Even today, they are serious contenders and are an absolute bargain.
These are wonderful speakers. Made before B&W decided to "voice" their speakers for older audiophiles with a smiley-face curve.
Meticulous effort! Bravo
Thank you!
Excellent job & the video. More ppl should post stuff like these.
Thanks, Arup. Much appreciated, take care.
Nice work. I especially like the part where you replace plastic clips with hardware. In speaker boxes I always use loctite the nuts, they don't come apart.
Nicely Done.
Wow, this is manufacturered in 1991. I can see that the manufacturing process of todays 801 802 are miles ahead. One really has to learn to appreciate how the technology changes over the years. (even thoughs the idea are still very similar but enhanced)
Nice repair, but while at it I would have upgraded to Air Core Coils and replaced those Bennic caps (especially the bipolar electrolytics) and sand cast resistors with something better. and solder the wires to the drivers instead of using those typical B&W push on tags. that Hakko desoldering tool is awesome. I want one!
superb video. My 802's are still fine after 20 + years. I think some small critters (children) may have pushed a toy or two through the port. Will I be able to access those if i take off the woffer as you did? Thanks.
Nice job! You could probably get those circuit board clips at a big box store.
Home Depot and Lowes do carry some specialty hardware, but I’ve never seen those clips available there. They can be purchased online by other retailers. As I showed in the video, though, they’re really not up to the challenge of securing those boards and that’s why I opted for a better solution.
Very meticulous work. Great job. Looks to me like the room could use some room treatments on the walls. If it already sounds good then what the hell do I know.
Thanks, Dwoodog. Yes, the ceiling is acoustically treated and the room sounds very good, but you’re correct, it does benefit from some portable acoustic panels I sometimes use in the room. Thanks for stopping by.
Thank you... my days of playing with repairs are behind me. Question 1) did you treat the other speaker to your tweaks? Question 2)Did you not do a test run on the crossover before r e-installing it?
Question 3) Did you thinkof replacing caps and resistors at all?
Thanks for your questions. Here are my responses:
1. No, the other speaker was operating correctly so I’ve never had to do any work on that one.
2. No, I didn’t do a test before reinstalling it because, as I showed in the video, I wasn’t sure I was going to keep the speakers. I made an agreement with the seller that I would do a relatively quick investigation to see if there was a relatively quick repair. If the crossover repair had not worked, I would have returned the speakers. I wasn’t prepared to do more diagnostic work given what I paid for them. They were supposed to be perfect. Additionally, the way I’d really want to test the crossover was in the speaker itself, and connecting the crossover requires almost full reassembly anyway.
3. The idea of replacing the resistors would never enter the picture unless there was a symptom of something being very wrong. In this case, it was obvious the issue was the dislodged coil so there was no reason to suspect resistors or any of the other components. Resistors of that quality in the crossover should never require replacement as a matter of maintenance. Replacing the capacitors for maintenance purposes may be necessary in the future, but my experience has shown that the caps in those crossovers have years of life left in them.
These speakers perform (almost astonishingly) well after the fix. They are among my favorites in my collection.
I have a similar speaker the 801 Matrix 3. I recently purchased a set of 805 Matrix and the tweeter has come off. I realized this was an attempted repair with some kind of an adhesive. Is there a repair technique you recommend for re-attaching the tweeter housing to the plinth? The interweb has made mention of Blutack but not sure of the reliability of that advice or if something more permanent is recommended. Thank you.
Do you have/use a frequency spectrum analyzer to measure the output of the speakers against their rated performance parameters? Is that even the right tool or am I totally off base?
No, that's a good question. To truly do the testing correctly, though, it should be done in an anechoic chamber to mostly eliminate the effects of the room on the speaker's performance. That said, I have a computerized test system for tape decks that I'm going to experiment with to do just what you're suggesting. It won't be perfect as I can only do so much to isolate my speakers from the room and I'm limited by the quality of the microphones and preamps I'm using as well. Still, I think it will be helpful to compare speakers to one another and detect anomalies such as a bump in the mid-bass causing boomy-ness, etc. I also have a spectrum analyzer/equalizer with a microphone and pink noise generator which I'll be experimenting with. Stay tuned.
Nice Job!
About to purchase a set of 802s3. Was considering Kef R3, same pricerange, but think il'l try the B&W out, due to easy resale.
My thought was hot glue! Both to fasten M3 screws. Inductor could be striped and and hot glued to the printboard.
Did you check all capacitors with leak test, and Lcr meter? Did you consider to change the ferrofluid inside the tweeters?
Do you still own the speakers?
Thx for this comprihensive video, much appriciated! 🙂👌
wow, i never thought that series 3 was designed diffrently than 802 series 2 like mine. in series 2 the bottom panel is just a plain cover and nothing attaches to it. and the crossover board is mounted upside down at the bottom of the speaker. its a one peice board, clean and uncluttered where two bi-wire cable is accessible for adjustment, no parts is loose that shifts during transport. i noticed the newer 802 no longer have those relays blocks for upper and lower signals, thats the over current relays.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
maybe they did away with those relays coz they no longer come with an outboard Bass Alignment Filter like the series 1 & 2 that was made before year 1990.
Or perhaps they concluded that the new design and drivers didn’t require the current limiting for protection.
Great repair!! Very nice to watch! One question though, out of curiosity, why didn’t you recap the capacitors at the same time? They are 40 years old and could have used a replacement. I am thinking about replacing the caps in my B&W speakers.
I have a pair B&W 801 Matrix Series 2. Had an issue with a woofer (no longer in production). There is a place called "The Speaker Exchange" in Tampa that were great to deal with. I was told B&W recommends them for repair of their vintage speakers. I sent them the woofer as well as the head unit on one of my 801 Series 80 which had a bad mid. There were very reasonable and quick with repairs. A good resource for info or parts. I could not find adequate info on the internet about either of my 801s. I purchased both pairs new in the late 80s. You said you had a service manual for yours? How did you come by that? I could not figure out the disassembly for the concrete mid enclosure/tweeter assembly.
Dave, thanks for the info about the Speaker Exchange. Might be helpful for other viewers looking for a trusted repair shop. Check Hifiengine.com for schematics and parts lists. They’ve got a good library of B&W info and I think they have what you’re looking for. Hifiengine is always my first stop for hifi owner manuals, service manuals and schematics. Well worth getting a free account there.
Same problem with my pair bought in 1980. Thanks for information
Mejor que el original!!
What microphones are you using to record at the end of the video?
I used an Apogee HypeMic for one channel and an Apogee Mic Plus for the other. They’re basically the same mic, but the HypeMic has a built in analog compressor which is sometimes helpful. That’s the mic I use for my voiceovers as well.
Top best
Just curious did replacing the caps cross your mind given the epic effort involved?
No, and I didn’t bother testing them. B&W uses high quality components. The caps used are very unlikely to have any issues.
@@FluxCondenser I have some 801 older than what you have and the caps I took out of my speakers were all pretty bad. Mine were 40 years old yours are only 30 years old but electrolytic are only good for less than 20 years. I also replaced my with Poly caps. Made everything sound much better. Bass and midrange now sound much better. In fact not a bad idea to measure the resistors. I upgraded one guys 802 series 80 and they sounded much better but we never replaced some defective resistors.
@@zorst99 There are electrolytic capacitors over 20 years old and they are still in good condition.
I've owned my 802 S2's for a few decades and have been intrigued by the guy on ebay selling 801/802 crossover rebuilds. His website shows a ton of positve data fro replacing the old factory crossovers with his rebuilt versions. Before I drop $650 on a pair of these, do you have any thoughts? My 802's work flawlessly but i'm always wanting more ...
Peter, there are a lot of offers on eBay for crossover rebuilds for the 801/802, so my comments will be general in nature. If you provide a link to a specific one I can comment more specifically.
In general, though, the listings I saw did not seem to make any modifications to the circuit so I wouldn’t expect a difference in sound from a rebuild. They seem to be pulling out the already good components and replacing them with also-good components of the same values.
In my opinion, the only way a new crossover will change the sound of the speakers is if the actual tuning of the crossover has been changed and that doesn’t appear to be the case. Additionally, I’d prefer to have an original B&W design, over one that changes crossover points, emphasis and de-emphasis in the crossover. If you were to find a crossover rebuild that does more than swap out parts and actually changes the crossover properties, you would have to decide whether those properties were favorable to you.
One last note: if one or more components in your existing crossovers are failing, then yes, a rebuild such as this could be an option if you were unable to diagnose and fix the issue yourself. If you have no evidence that your crossovers are failing (and I wouldn’t expect you would for another few decades) then this will be unnecessary. Further, if you’re not happy with the sound of your 802s, I would strongly suggest auditioning and purchasing speakers that will better satisfy your needs. Rebuilding crossovers in the pursuit of better sound is a slippery, expensive slope with no guarantee for success.
@@FluxCondenser Thanks for your concise reply. The guy on eBay goes by Cyrix7x86 and can be quickly found by searching 802 crossover. There is a Danish guy as well who has put a ton of work into determining if he can improve on the sound of 802's (www.jantzen-audio.com/bw802s3upgrade/). As mentioned, I love my 802's but am bored and want to play a bit! How about bi-amping, either vertical or horizontal? Have you experimented?
Peter, in my main home theater system I have the left and right channels biamped. I don’t think there’s any benefit to this beyond being able to provide adequate power to a speaker. This can be done with one amp as well as two. In my system it’s probably overkill as the amps have high output and the speakers are very efficient. I encourage you to experiment as I know personally, that sometimes you’ve just got to “scratch the itch” and hear or see something for yourself. However, I can also tell you from experience that trying to achieve an appreciable difference in sound is not going to be best achieved by crossover modifications, biamping, cable or even most component upgrades (provided you’re already using good equipment).
I’ve spent countless hours (and dollars) investing in “tweaks” and have found that the greatest upgrades in sound quality (or only) have been from changing speakers and improving room acoustics.
Additionally, the problem with tweaks is that our brains are notoriously bad at remembering what something sounds like. Our brains play a far greater role when one thinks “yes, my system sounds much better (or worse) since I changed X.” And even when auditioning speakers and switching between them, one reacts mostly to the volume level and we almost always prefer the louder, more efficient speaker. When levels are equalized, a preference between speakers is more difficult to determine.
But with loudspeakers at least, there are noticeable sound differences between them and that’s why again, if you’re bored and want to try something different (I understand completely!) I think you’ll have more fun and satisfaction by purchasing different speakers. Consider B&Ws newer speakers or go wild and get something completely different such as a pair of K-horns! If you also keep your old speakers, you can have great fun using a switch box to compare them.
@@FluxCondenser Thanks again for your reply, Flux(?). Funny you mention Klipsch ... i had a set of Corner Horns with a Bryston 4B 30 years ago! No, I actually used to sell B&W in a small Stereo store in Calgary, Canada (1989-1990) - which accounts for my love of all things B&W. I have an original set of DM17's (same tweeter) + a B&W sub in my Media Room, and until I sold the car had a full B&W automotive sound system. I am in complete agreement with your assessment of sound differences. Room, speakers, and source make all the difference. And speaking of source, have you tried the new Amazon HD Music Service? Flac files streaming at 24 bit /96kHz. Really sounds good through an external DAC.
Nice communicating with you. Have a good weekend.
@@peterford387 I upgraded my 801s with some poly caps OMG what a difference the new caps made. My caps were 40 years old long past their expiration date.
Excellent video. Would you have used "Flux Capacitor" for your name or is that copyrighted?
Thanks, much appreciated. No, I chose the name Flux condenser because condenser is the old-tymie way of saying capacitor. I started on CZcams doing antique radio repairs (lots of condenser replacements) and thought Flux Condenser was a clever play on the Flux Capacitor from Back to the Future. I liked the whole time-travel thing, too as I sorta feel like repairing old equipment is the closest I’ll ever get to going back in time!
@@FluxCondenser
Thanks. I am old enough to remember when capacitors were called "condensers" even by electronic repair people. I am not sure when the term was replaced, but I think it was sometime in the 1960s. I think your name choice is excellent also.
When I was growing up, our family had a "Truetone" console AM/shortwave radio from Western Auto. It stood about 4 feet high and had a 12 inch electrodynamic speaker and 11 old style octal tubes.
The speaker's magnet was energized by a DC voltage from the receiver, and had a four wire connector. Remember the Western Auto store in the Back to the Future episode 1 in the 1955 period. In 1955 I was 9 years old and it was one of my favorite stores. I used to buy "bell wire" and "Number 6 batteries" for electronic experiments for my budding interest in electronics.
Interesting. What kind of store was Western Auto? Before my time!
@@FluxCondenser
Western Auto was a hardware store that included tools auto accessories, some appliances and radios and televisions. It also had electrical products and dry cell batteries. The Number 6 was designated as an ignition battery. It was 1.5 volts and 35,000 to 40,000 milliamp hours. It was 6.5 inches tall and about 2 and 5/8 inches wide. Bell wire was solid 18 gauge wire with a plastic jacket. Original use was for doorbells. It also had garden tools and bicycles and tricycles and wagons . I think there is one shown in the Back to the Future movie in the 1955 scenes near the clock tower.
Sounds fantastic. My first trip if i could go back to the past.
Why didn't you check the capacitors? Were they already swapped?
Not checked, not swapped. I replace faulty capacitors all the time, but in my experience the ones in these speakers are not near their expiration dates. These are among the best sounding speakers I own and there are no performance issues. I’ve just reached a point that I’ve checked so many speaker crossovers over the years expecting to find issues, but I don’t. For whatever reason, I find bipolar electrolytics to be far more reliable than the polarized types as well.
Glad to see you were wearing gloves and a mask while unboxing them.
Ha, you noticed that! Yup, trying to play it safe.
Hi there, first of all loved your video! Then a different thing, I have maybe the chance to get my hands on the same b&w speakers, for €2000,- ($2400,/). Is it a fair price?
If they are the series 3 version and are perfect cosmetically and mechanically, that’s a bit on the high side, but still reasonable. Perhaps you could negotiate a $100 or more off. Keep in mind that my reference is for a pair in the US. It sounds as though you’re from the UK, and these being a UK speaker, the market prices for these may be different.
Note that if these speakers are to be shipped to you, it’s critical in my opinion that the original boxes are included. This will not only help justify the price (the boxes alone can be worth $100+) but also ensure that they reach you un-damaged. Note, that my speakers were shipped in the original boxes, but still sustained damage due to the poor design I show in the video.
Also consider that you shouldn’t necessarily purchase these speakers to get the best sound possible for your $2,400. These are collectible speakers and that’s built into the price. For the same money or less, a more modern speaker will likely outperform these.
Not that they sound bad. Far from it, they sound wonderful. Still, speaker design has progressed and that shouldn’t be disregarded. Additionally, a new speaker will give you a warrantee and may be more reliable.
That said, as a collector fascinated by older equipment, I bought mine for around what you paid and despite the repair I had to make, I’m glad I did.
@@FluxCondenser thank you for the damm good reply! I am from the Netherlands don’t know if that changes stuff 😅. They are the version 2 and have idd the original boxes in mint condition. They look like they came straight from the factory. Can inmagine speakers now a day will sound better, but just fell in love with them and would be a great upgrade from my 330i
Sounds great. I think you’ll enjoy them!
@@klapblok for €2000 you can do much better than buying old 802 models!
I have been buying and testing a lot of speakers the past 2 or 3 years and if you use good amplification this (802 series 2) speakers are in this price range unbeatable. The only thing they need to shine is high-end power amp with lots off current and then you hear the value of this set.
✨✨👌🏻👌🏻
The Coil Aught To Have Been Fixed Securely Before Soldering...
Procedure Back To Front
I didn’t show it in the video, but the solder was reflowed after the coil was tightened down. Otherwise, yes, the weld could have been compromised.
Currently made in China?
I make new crossovers for these.....
Fiber board ! For the price of B&W speakers , you would expect better quality ! Pathetic !
It’s actually a pretty ideal material for speaker enclosures. The outer veneer is real wood. Common setup.
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