Companies sully their brand image with items such as this one. If they want a "cheap and cheerful" range they should put a different brand name on them.
@Stewart Markley These are not big bucks. B&W put their name on these made in China units and they are probably not even made by them. I wonder why companies will put their brand on something like this. It ruins their higher end line that they are known for IMO..they should have not put the B&W brand on these
@@KingKong-mp6gj LOL....really interesting opinion Whenever I hear a statement like that its always from someone who is trying to say that something that they cant afford is not worth the price Funny how that is. You should compare these speakers in this thread to others made in China at this price point In my opinion, they should not have the B&W name on them
Hang in there Danny! Thank you for sharing with us. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me last week regarding your X-MTM Encore kit and flat packs.
Center channel should produce neutral sound to side to side directions. That's the purpose of it so all listeners can hear the movie dialogue from the center. Stock frequency response is horrible for that purpose. Amazing work again fixing this!
It amazes me that people buy these speakers retail and think they are just AMAZING because they paid big bucks and because it says "XXXX" name brand so it HAS TO BE GOOD! Yet AGAIN! Danny proves it..
Nice work and always nice to see what their made of behind all the lipstick and glam. I finally decided after many many pairs ive owned, i just built my own with all the strengths of my favorites, jbl 2226hpl 15 inch woofers, celestion neodymium midranges (i like british midrange really well), and large ess heil tweeters and crossovers are finally dialed in, top end is full dipolar, they pretty much do it all, it was a job but turned out great.
Kalman Rubinson had high praise for your 702 s2 in his 2018 review. And, after measuring, John Atkinson was also positive. I can see how you were moved to stick with them. You won't need to send them in to GR Research, that's for sure. Atkinson concluded with an interesting comment that shows how a listener, in some cases, can be in bliss despite measurements. He said "Bowers & Wilkins loudspeakers tend to have somewhat idiosyncratic measured behavior, and the 702 S2 is no exception. But with careful setup and choice of ancillary components, it can produce very satisfying sound."
Hey Danny , I feel ya on getting materials with my job we are having problems also. We are having a hard time finding raw plastic we melt down for my injection molding machines to build those Corvette panels . Me loving the No-Rez best accoustic material I have ever used !! Thanks Danny
I'm so glad I discovered this channel. The algorithm be praised. Also, I about fell out of my chair when I heard you say 104.7 The Bear and saw you're in Iowa Park. I lived in Wichita Falls from about 1990 to 2005 and am more than likely going to be moving back there if I can...we'll see what the job market is like. I've had all of Austin I want I think. I'm just not a city kind of guy. (You wouldn't be hiring would you? )
Danny has me terrified to buy speakers. I’ve been looking at the ELAC VELA and am afraid one day he will open one up and it will have a bunch of nickel and dime parts...lol
Danny, could you use one of your videos to explain how to read all the graphics? On another note: I love the speakers cables I purchased from you! Thanks a lot!
Going for a particular kind of sound rather than measurements. A lot of B&W speakers I've heard sound pretty nice overall despite measuring poorly. You can tell that they can be a little recessed in the upper mid when compared to a more accurately measuring speaker, but at the same time tends to make more music easier to listen to imo. It would be interesting to hear what the designers perspective is on making it such that measurements show such deviations from "flat"
@@RennieAsh Doubtful....plus the other part is how cheaply these lower end speakers are built as well with their Chinese internal components The lesson here is that high end speaker manufacturers dont do well with lower end products In my opinion..Bowers should have never put their name in these. It damages their brand
turnne have you even looked at measurements of some higher end models? They also aren’t so flat and smooth in direct and off axis. B&W aim for a particular sound. The quality of parts is as good as any other commercial speaker at the price point really. I’m sure you’d love made in England everything, but then you’d be paying a heap more and for what? The made in England B&W really didn’t seem any better or worse than the China ones. The design might be another debate as they’ve gone more conventional box over some of the more artistic designs of the past. I’ve owned quite a few models. They’ve never put super high end components in things other than the more expensive models at some point.
Great videos mate, and very informative as well..! Just wanted your advice on my b&w Matrix2? Can i or can you recommend any drivers i could replace these matrix2? Mine has stopped working and its been sitting in one of the rooms,collecting dust. Any assistance appreciated..!
The prices of lumber and wood products have increased by as much as 200%. I suspect that since speaker cabinets will become more expensive to manufacture will the companies cut corners to absorb the increase in raw materials for their product line? Less bracing, thinner cabinets? I’ll be interested in seeing the reaction that will happen as the raw products become much more expensive.
@Jingle Nuts Auto prices have also risen. It not a good time to go car shopping. There’s a reported shortage of semiconductors and microprocessors causing issues with assembly and used car prices are reportedly going up as well as supply and demand also affects that marketplace too. I think that many audiophiles might be taking interest in vintage speakers and electronics as well. There’s some interesting medieval style economics being put into action and it will be interesting to see how that all plays out.
I recently purchased a pair of floor standing Bowers & Wilkins 603s. It has discontinued the Kevlar & now has Continuum for midband. Two paper/kevlar cones with a double dome aluminium tweeter. Any thoughts about this new B&W release.
I wish you and Andrew Jones would join forces and create a loudspeaker company that only produces sealed box loudspeakers and a few open baffle speakers.
Mr. Richie. You claim to educate us with the nice upgrades you do and I'm a believer in it and feel like tips you made so far are good, sadly I live in Europe and that means import taxes etc. But can you do a speaker upgrade terms for dummies....what is 'on axis response?'
I wonder, is this possible to fix a FR of headphones? I mean that there is for instance Audeze with a terrific tone balance, but with terrible highs. Two deeps at 4kHz and 7kHz, quite fast slope after only 9kHz. I think that a digital EQ would be a disaster. But I’d like to have fair highs. What can I do? Is this possible to parallel crossover bands, or phase shifts make this senseless?
Love your channel , being brief as requested- I’ve a pair of JBL L15 speakers from new- do you have an upgrade kit available for them- love them but from what I’ve seen n listened to don’t think there is a speaker you can’t greatly improve. Thanks from Scotland . 👍 Steven
@@dannyrichie9743 ok thanks anyway , think it would be prohibitively expensive to send you them. You haven’t any electronic/ audiophile genius friends in Scotland I suppose? Thanks for your time- Steven Hunter
Improvements in accuracy are improvements in perceived sound. But these upgrades are not just about the measured improvements. The improvements in parts quality, signal transfer, and minimized cabinet wall resonances are a real improvements as well.
Great drivers quality and decent cabinet, decent or ok parts quality , weird xover design... I bet it will sound amazing now after Dannys cure and with top notch parts quality around the drivers....
It looks like the engineering manager at B&W came from the finance department, that or they got woke at B&W, there is no other explanation for it. Anyway with a bit of GR magic you are good to go, thanks for sharing this train wreck with us.
I always thought B&W made good and accurate speakers!!! That's an eye opener for me. Do you think they should have done like Paradgim and made it three-way with 2 woofers and a mid and a tweeter in the center? Thanks for the time you invest educating us! This is very useful info!
Regarding No-Rez does that have any affect on the speaker performance , such as putting more acoustic material in a box . I’m curious as my speakers don’t have acoustic damping material in them at all . The reason given, to allow the drivers to respond faster to incoming signal . There’s a good amount of bracing , the walls are of a reasonable thickness maybe 3/4” and the side walls are curved . A bit like the cross section of a wing . Despite all that there’s still an amount of ringing when I knock on the side of the enclosure . Can’t call it box cause is it only has three sides .
It's probably a higher frequency ringing - does the drivers attached directly to the cabinet play up that high? If not, probably don't need to do much. But could do with a damping layer and a small bit of absorbency material to reduce any higher frequency sounds that may emanate from the bass driver's operation. If the no rez is acting like some sort of CLD it could be beneficial in reducing the surface structure born ringing
The use of no damping material has no effect on how a driver responses to the input signal. And if the driver responded or moved faster then it would be playing a higher frequency than the input signal. That is technically impossible. The use of no damping can often mean that internal standing waves reflect back through the cone of the woofer as a delay and causes a smear. And it can easily be seen in the spectral decay.
Hello Danny gave you come across a pair of B&W DM7 Mk1 (the original version). I would like to add tube connectors to my pair upgrade the crossover. I also like the feet that are on the bottom of the pedestal base. I look forward to your response.
Deconozco como funciona eso de la curva. Como deberia ser en teoria lo optimo? Por que los ingenieros no consideran eso en la fabricación de parlantes caros?
They aren't trying to make it flat and regular; I'm sure the crossover designers could do that if they wanted to. I currently have a pair of B&W next to a more accurately measuring speaker, and the B&W is very engaging but easy to listen to, though it does lack in other areas due to the coloured response.
yeah Danny.. we have big problems with inflation. all commodities are under heavy increases. also soon interest rates must rise. just my 2 cents :) thanks.
This is why JIT (just in time) is such a bad idea. It's fine when everything is running smoothly. But life is bumpy. And with every little bump, comes a disruption in the supply chain. If you haven't warehoused anything, you're looking down the barrel of a work stoppage every single time. So these big companies trying to save money by not warehousing anything get real mean and nasty when their perfect system is disrupted by a car wreck, or a snowstorm, or a pandemic. It's their own damned fault they didn't account for life itself. Little companies like GR only have so much money for stock. For small businesses like GR, this is life. It's unusual when everything is running smooth. Meanwhile, that new vertical off axis is nothing short of a small miracle. You've outdone yourself. 12:57 looks absolutely gorgeous.
i really wish he would do a before and after sound clip. The one thing that is forgotten in the "quest to flatten response" is that sometimes adding/modifying components may take away from the natural resonance of the speakers, while they get even they sometimes sound congested and lose some dynamics. I would have been very curious to hear before and after on this b&W.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sometimes... adding more components to the crossover adds more losses which removes some of the dynamics. This is why some people prefer speakers with NO crossovers or minimal element crossovers. Not saying flat is bad, but... I do wish he had some before and after sound clips.
Danny, I have been watching for quite a while and I find your engineering really interesting, but there is one big hole in this (and similar) videos - the sound. Specs are great but the proof is in the listening. Hook up with Ron at NRD and do some controlled before and after on the same gear, same room, same mic placement, etc. I think you would have some really interested listeners out here in CZcamsland. Thanks for taking the time to educate us all.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks Danny, but I guess my point is that it would be really interesting to hear the results of all your work upgrading these speakers. I know you are very busy but the proof is in the listening. If you don’t have time the I understand, I just think it would really add value to these upgrade videos. Either way I appreciate your taking the time to educate us.
First I don't understand how B&W can make such a terrible filter, but the did. With your new filter the measure really well. Better than many high end speakers. Could you please try to describe the sound before and after? That's was missing from your upgrades videos.
Someone would have to send one to me. And if they did the crossover would only be good for that particular box and implementation. Change the way it is used and the crossover as to change as well.
This is all great but without sound comparison not so useful. Would you please add sound comparison to your reviews to help me decide if upgrade? Thanks
I guess that series came out when some buyers would still own CRT TVs. The 683 s2 I have don't use shielding. But in 2013, most people probably wouldn't have CRT TVs
Danny. My boy Danny. My matey! DANNY! What happened to the ATC video? Some of us holding our breath here .... ;-) Anyway, thanks for your interesting videos.
The customer sent me a pair of them. One had a bad woofer. So he wanted me to confirm what the problem was. The woofer was then sent in for a repair. I will be doing an upgrade for them that is just a parts upgrade (not a redesign) and a slight tweeter level adjustment. They measured really well though.
@@spacejaime ugh you're one of these guys... You really think people at a multi mullion dollar company couldn't design a flat measuring speaker if they wanted to?
Rennie, and to add to your point, Sony can and does make superlative products, but this one speaker flunked with a big F. Check the lateral lobing effects in the frequency measurements - awful! Cheers!
@@adriaticbatman Oh, you are talking about single driver speakers. Those aren't full full range. They are typically a limited range speaker. I design filters for those too. I also help develop wide band drivers. I just ordered 2,000 of our new LGK 2.0 driver.
“Hope y’all learned something with this one” I learned that I will never, ever, try to design my own crossover. The wheel’s already been invented enough times.
@@ProfessorJohnSmith Because the flatter they are the more accurate they are. However, I also look closely at the off axis response and sometimes it is better to compensate for problems in the off axis response by an adjustment that negatively effects the on axis but gives the speaker better overall balance.
@@ProfessorJohnSmith Ah! Good question. The answer is: "What will sell!". Many listeners will not pay for a flat - response loudspeaker. The common day to day movie / pop music person does not want a flat response. They measure quality by "will it rattle my windows?"
Dude!?! Have you just watched this one video and threw out your comment? GR Research is all about listening for quality and even gets harassed for caring about audible differences that are not as yet measurable!
Hi Danny, this comment has nothing to do with the B&Ws. I was just wondering how familiar you are with the work of the late John Dunlavy and I'd be interested to get your thought on the Dunlavy and Duntech design philosophy, especially regarding the physical time alignment of the drivers.
I once spent the day with John at his facility. He was a great guy and I admired him very much. There are advantages to time aligning the drivers, but trade offs with the first order filters.
@@GRResearch Oh ok, thanks Danny. I will search your channel for mention of first-order crossovers. I have a pair of the Duntech PCL25s which have just had the tweeters replaced by the new proprietor of Duntech.
Unbelievable that big speaker brands use crappy parts to get a crappy frequency response. Better crossover parts and adjustment of the crossover makes a huge difference. But it’s sad it must be done afterwards and with extra costs and expertise.
Every company uses a load of hype an boastful claims when promoting their products. Talk is cheap, but it takes a lot of money and great effort to deliver a good product.You are a tribute to the audio world. Keep up the good work but it is inevitable that you have made a lot of enemies in the audio profession.
Danny, you seem to have too much in your head. Tired? You have problems with your suppliers and their delivery times. Times have been difficult during this pandemic. Nothing you can influence more than worry? Cleanse your brain with what you think is fun. Speaker measurements and upgrades! Do not forget ATC -19 which you said you would make a whole video about. So nice to see you again.
I think a lot of people would not see the value (sonically and economically) spending a third the price of a brand new pair of speakers, to upgrade them. Many people would say, "why not just spend the extra $$ on a better pair of speakers in the first place?". But the problem in these price ranges, is, whether you spend $1500 or $2000, you are still going to get a pair of speakers with cheap parts, poorly braced cabinets, design errors... $2000 spent on a pair of speakers with the types of upgrades seen in this vid, will yield a pair of speakers that sound substantially better than a $2000 commercially available pair of speakers.
Why does he never show the distortion diagrams, in my experience they are key to good performance. Nonlinearity is also a distortion, but its only a small part of the whole picture.
Distortion measurements are more marketing jargon than anything. They are non-standardized and can't be accurately taken outside an anechoic chamber. And they really don't tell you anything if just looking at slight differences between speakers. A problem can be highlighted if there is one, but those same problems are often seen in other areas or in other measurements. Here is a video that I did covering that topic. czcams.com/video/YSWrT8Qk7Bc/video.html
Danny, Your speakers are Open Baffle which is like it’s own sub culture. I wish you would get a Madisound DIY kit and review the parts on it. I’m curious if those kits use high quality parts
why don't the speaker companies hire you Danny as a consultant to better their products in the same way Acoustic Engineering companies hire me for my expertise. You got a lot of good practical input, cuts through all of the marketing B/S.
I'm really curious about the method used to get the bizarre results in pretty much every speaker measurements. What equipment is use to get the frequency response curves? What is the source? Test tones? It's this an in room response?? etc. Reason I'm curious is because although I don't own B&W speakers the are well know for been quite neutral and natural sounding and again a lot of good speakers brands always get horrendous results in his tests. Perdon me for being skeptical but some of this upgrades cost a lot, sometimes as much or more than the speaker itself; and I know parts used on the crossover network especially in high price speakers should be better but again to many top companies without "engineers" it's to much of a coincidence.
Based on the reviews and measurements I've seen, most B&W speakers are not "quite neutral". The D3 series have sounded way too hot in the treble every time I've heard them.
As an example several Andrew Jones designs get good feedback from Danny. And he clearly says that he is doing small tweaking, not major redesign. Which is half the fun with DIY.
@@marct9587 to some extent I agree to your perception of hot treble although I would characterize it as a little emphasis. My issue is the test method, when I read an Audioholics reviews they explain the test methodology and how the got there, sources, location etc. Here I just see a horrendous frequency response result and then a kit to "improve" it and the result is a ruler flat response but nothing in between. By the way I love bright treble and 📺 guess that's why I always end up with Samsung TV...lol
Many B&W measure funny but people still like the sound. It does do something nice despite the poor measurements. Compare to an accurate measuring speaker and you will hear differences. And especially if you use "nicely recorded/mastered" tracks, then the more accurate speaker will probably be nicer to listen to. I find that the B&W is good at making less than ideal tracks also sound great and not too fatiguing, least least some of them. Whereas the more accurate speaker may be a little harsh. It can go the other way on some tracks if they hit the peaks in the B&W response
People think that if they buy brand name speakers , they are getting top quality components. Couldn't be more wrong. Just build your own and blow anything in a store away.
Many people can build a speaker but not many can build a speaker correctly. There is a lot more involved than building a box, installing drivers and making a crossover, all of which is beyond the average persons ability let alone knowing how to match parts, take measurements and tune a box.
That was the BBC dip my friend. Its supposed to be there. You just made the speaker too bright and unpleasant to listen to. Sure the response looks much smoother...on paper
Don't buy B&W below the 700 series, which in fact is very good albeit at a hefty price. That's where their skilled engineering is. The "lower" range is for nice looking cabinets for people who don't know any better and won't notice the sound very much or care.
it kind of defeats the purpose of this design to modify it like this. B&W designed the mid driver with little up down motion for the purpose that it would be crossed high. So the crucial range between 500hz and 4-5khz is relatively free from driver transitions and typical tweeter fast response and brightness, which is why its not as bright either. The mid driver is a similiar design to that used in the Funktion one PA range, (which crosses a pulp driver at 7khz before the tweeter) except funktion one solved the dispersion problem with horn loading phase plug design (for a mid driver) that is patented so other manufacturers cannot use it. The reason behind all this is that these two manufacturers (and listeners) believe that these mid drivers actually sound a lot better in the mid range than the other options, even though the cost is bad off-axis response. Whether its kevlar or paper drivers. When buying these speakers one needs to know their purpose and that they need to be used for sweet spot listening rather than room speakers. I actually built my own fully active speaker using the B&W kevlar woofer, funktion one mid and B & W tweeter so know something of the sonic benefits. I did carry out tests with a whole bunch of mid level plastics based hifi drivers comparing them against kevlar and funktion one (fane pulp driver). These kevlar and paper drivers definetly convey more information, its like all the plastic drivers are losing information. But unfortunatley I dont know a test which can prove this. I understand your channel is focussed mostly on what you can change in your business operation.. but it would be greate if you can look into more this type of science of the drivers (upgrading them) and other types of testing.. Although I guess thats practically designing a new speaker.
Unshielded speakers only messed up CRT TVs putting a blue smudge on top left of screen, my Dad in 84 mought an entertainment cabinet for his Sharp TV and Sharp 118 compact HiFi system with flat woofers and front load TT, the magnets in those speakers were unshielded and messed up the screen on the TV
Damn, I'm really impressed with the off axis response... Incredibly smooth. A little big for a center channel, but I'm surprised we dont see more designs that can do what these do. Especially with how bad the cancellation can be with most typical MTM center channels.
Danny strikes again! Restoring balance to the audio force one speaker at a time!
Great stuff, as always!
So happy with all the work GR research does. Maybe he will walk us through some speaker repairs.
Glad TX is treating you OK. Thanks for all you share with us! Great job, Sensei!
One of the best videos showing why you shouldn't put any stock in getting real quality by spending big bucks on big brand names.
Companies sully their brand image with items such as this one. If they want a "cheap and cheerful" range they should put a different brand name on them.
@Stewart Markley
These are not big bucks. B&W put their name on these made in China units and they are probably not even made by them. I wonder why companies will put their brand on something like this. It ruins their higher end line that they are known for
IMO..they should have not put the B&W brand on these
you are 100 percent correct!
B&W is known to be an overprized joke marketing to rich business people who want to signal to others that they are audiophiles.
@@KingKong-mp6gj LOL....really interesting opinion
Whenever I hear a statement like that its always from someone who is trying to say that something that they cant afford is not worth the price
Funny how that is.
You should compare these speakers in this thread to others made in China at this price point
In my opinion, they should not have the B&W name on them
Hang in there Danny! Thank you for sharing with us. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me last week regarding your X-MTM Encore kit and flat packs.
Wow! Really impressed what you've done with these B&Ws!
Another eyeopener for sure. Great presentation.
Keep doing your wonderful job with these speakers!
Center channel should produce neutral sound to side to side directions. That's the purpose of it so all listeners can hear the movie dialogue from the center. Stock frequency response is horrible for that purpose. Amazing work again fixing this!
It never ceases to amaze me the absolute crap that high-end audio companies are willing to push out onto the public.
Ty. Always look forward to this videos:)
It amazes me that people buy these speakers retail and think they are just AMAZING because they paid big bucks and because it says "XXXX" name brand so it HAS TO BE GOOD! Yet AGAIN! Danny proves it..
Would be interesting to compare stock vs modded. B&W has a sound that a lot of people like despite measuring poorly.
So to you if a speakers is not flat it sounds bad???
@@kd1010163 Did i say that ? I said look at what you spend and what you get from the speaker..
@Mr Leamerz
These are not big bucks. These are made in China cost cutting pieces that B&W should have never put their brand name on in my opinion
@@turnne Yup, I believe it !
Nice work and always nice to see what their made of behind all the lipstick and glam. I finally decided after many many pairs ive owned, i just built my own with all the strengths of my favorites, jbl 2226hpl 15 inch woofers, celestion neodymium midranges (i like british midrange really well), and large ess heil tweeters and crossovers are finally dialed in, top end is full dipolar, they pretty much do it all, it was a job but turned out great.
Damn, I just found you! Thank you for all the work, I have to watch your entire stack of videos! :D
Great work. Thanks for the video.
Intresting video, i always loved b&w and bought my 2nd pair 702 s2 have really blown me away
Kalman Rubinson had high praise for your 702 s2 in his 2018 review. And, after measuring, John Atkinson was also positive. I can see how you were moved to stick with them. You won't need to send them in to GR Research, that's for sure.
Atkinson concluded with an interesting comment that shows how a listener, in some cases, can be in bliss despite measurements. He said "Bowers & Wilkins loudspeakers tend to have somewhat idiosyncratic measured behavior, and the 702 S2 is no exception. But with careful setup and choice of ancillary components, it can produce very satisfying sound."
@@greenbeginner9221 my 685s are very temperemental when it comes to amp choice
Hey Danny , I feel ya on getting materials with my job we are having problems also. We are having a hard time finding raw plastic we melt down for my injection molding machines to build those Corvette panels .
Me loving the No-Rez best accoustic material I have ever used !!
Thanks Danny
How does he do it times and times again; this an is a magician!
I'm so glad I discovered this channel. The algorithm be praised. Also, I about fell out of my chair when I heard you say 104.7 The Bear and saw you're in Iowa Park. I lived in Wichita Falls from about 1990 to 2005 and am more than likely going to be moving back there if I can...we'll see what the job market is like. I've had all of Austin I want I think. I'm just not a city kind of guy. (You wouldn't be hiring would you? )
I might be.
thats impressive.
Good day danny.Sean here from Canada trying to learn how to upgrade my old b and w dm 620s
Just ordered another Sheet of N.R
For me Jbl Studio 580s they need some No-Rez love espically on the side pannels
Would love to see your work on the mating 683 speaker
Thanks again
Danny has me terrified to buy speakers. I’ve been looking at the ELAC VELA and am afraid one day he will open one up and it will have a bunch of nickel and dime parts...lol
Danny, could you use one of your videos to explain how to read all the graphics?
On another note: I love the speakers cables I purchased from you! Thanks a lot!
Try this one. czcams.com/video/fmcngRdm4kg/video.html
I'd love to see you tear apart the off axis response for these sound bars in all there different approaches
B&W such a big company i really don't understand how the tune their speakers and made their speaker in such a manner am puzzle 😂
Going for a particular kind of sound rather than measurements. A lot of B&W speakers I've heard sound pretty nice overall despite measuring poorly. You can tell that they can be a little recessed in the upper mid when compared to a more accurately measuring speaker, but at the same time tends to make more music easier to listen to imo.
It would be interesting to hear what the designers perspective is on making it such that measurements show such deviations from "flat"
@@RennieAsh You cant compare a made in China cost cutting piece to their main line of speakers
turnne not relevant. Their 802 measures just as oddly
@@RennieAsh Doubtful....plus the other part is how cheaply these lower end speakers are built as well with their Chinese internal components
The lesson here is that high end speaker manufacturers dont do well with lower end products
In my opinion..Bowers should have never put their name in these. It damages their brand
turnne have you even looked at measurements of some higher end models? They also aren’t so flat and smooth in direct and off axis.
B&W aim for a particular sound. The quality of parts is as good as any other commercial speaker at the price point really.
I’m sure you’d love made in England everything, but then you’d be paying a heap more and for what? The made in England B&W really didn’t seem any better or worse than the China ones.
The design might be another debate as they’ve gone more conventional box over some of the more artistic designs of the past.
I’ve owned quite a few models. They’ve never put super high end components in things other than the more expensive models at some point.
Great videos mate, and very informative as well..!
Just wanted your advice on my b&w Matrix2? Can i or can you recommend any drivers i could replace these matrix2? Mine has stopped working and its been sitting in one of the rooms,collecting dust.
Any assistance appreciated..!
The prices of lumber and wood products have increased by as much as 200%. I suspect that since speaker cabinets will become more expensive to manufacture will the companies cut corners to absorb the increase in raw materials for their product line? Less bracing, thinner cabinets? I’ll be interested in seeing the reaction that will happen as the raw products become much more expensive.
@Jingle Nuts Auto prices have also risen. It not a good time to go car shopping. There’s a reported shortage of semiconductors and microprocessors causing issues with assembly and used car prices are reportedly going up as well as supply and demand also affects that marketplace too. I think that many audiophiles might be taking interest in vintage speakers and electronics as well. There’s some interesting medieval style economics being put into action and it will be interesting to see how that all plays out.
I recently purchased a pair of floor standing Bowers & Wilkins 603s. It has discontinued the Kevlar & now has Continuum for midband. Two paper/kevlar cones with a double dome aluminium tweeter. Any thoughts about this new B&W release.
I wish you and Andrew Jones would join forces and create a loudspeaker company that only produces sealed box loudspeakers and a few open baffle speakers.
Mr. Richie. You claim to educate us with the nice upgrades you do and I'm a believer in it and feel like tips you made so far are good, sadly I live in Europe and that means import taxes etc. But can you do a speaker upgrade terms for dummies....what is 'on axis response?'
it means your ears are in level with the tweeter
Gaping hole in the mids. What were they thinking? And 2.4 Ohm impedance dips?
I wonder, is this possible to fix a FR of headphones? I mean that there is for instance Audeze with a terrific tone balance, but with terrible highs. Two deeps at 4kHz and 7kHz, quite fast slope after only 9kHz. I think that a digital EQ would be a disaster. But I’d like to have fair highs. What can I do? Is this possible to parallel crossover bands, or phase shifts make this senseless?
Love your channel , being brief as requested- I’ve a pair of JBL L15 speakers from new- do you have an upgrade kit available for them- love them but from what I’ve seen n listened to don’t think there is a speaker you can’t greatly improve. Thanks from Scotland . 👍 Steven
I have not worked on them.
@@dannyrichie9743 ok thanks anyway , think it would be prohibitively expensive to send you them. You haven’t any electronic/ audiophile genius friends in Scotland I suppose? Thanks for your time- Steven Hunter
What are your thoughts on fuse protecting (or other alternatives) vintage, hard to get & repair tweeters?
It is not something that should ever be in the signal path.
Are there modifications you recommend or sell for Nautilus 802, 804, and 805’s? What about the older McIntosh HT-2 passive subs?
My question with this is ... do improvements in measured response necessarily correspond to improvements
in perceived sound quality ?
Improvements in accuracy are improvements in perceived sound. But these upgrades are not just about the measured improvements. The improvements in parts quality, signal transfer, and minimized cabinet wall resonances are a real improvements as well.
Great drivers quality and decent cabinet, decent or ok parts quality , weird xover design... I bet it will sound amazing now after Dannys cure and with top notch parts quality around the drivers....
It looks like the engineering manager at B&W came from the finance department, that or they got woke at B&W, there is no other explanation for it. Anyway with a bit of GR magic you are good to go, thanks for sharing this train wreck with us.
they got very woke
www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/corporate-changes-announced-at-bowers--wilkins-301012749.html
They're owned by a GoP senator.
@Hugo Bloemers
I think this shows that a high end manufacturer doesnt really excel at trying to build a relatively low cost line
I always thought B&W made good and accurate speakers!!! That's an eye opener for me. Do you think they should have done like Paradgim and made it three-way with 2 woofers and a mid and a tweeter in the center? Thanks for the time you invest educating us! This is very useful info!
They've measured "less well" as they get newer, but they seem to be going for a certain sound.
@@RennieAsh Some like it and some don't
Yves Boutin yes, can’t please all the people all the time. No matter what response you have :)
Regarding No-Rez does that have any affect on the speaker performance , such as putting more acoustic material in a box . I’m curious as my speakers don’t have acoustic damping material in them at all . The reason given, to allow the drivers to respond faster to incoming signal . There’s a good amount of bracing , the walls are of a reasonable thickness maybe 3/4” and the side walls are curved . A bit like the cross section of a wing . Despite all that there’s still an amount of ringing when I knock on the side of the enclosure . Can’t call it box cause is it only has three sides .
It's probably a higher frequency ringing - does the drivers attached directly to the cabinet play up that high? If not, probably don't need to do much. But could do with a damping layer and a small bit of absorbency material to reduce any higher frequency sounds that may emanate from the bass driver's operation.
If the no rez is acting like some sort of CLD it could be beneficial in reducing the surface structure born ringing
The use of no damping material has no effect on how a driver responses to the input signal. And if the driver responded or moved faster then it would be playing a higher frequency than the input signal. That is technically impossible.
The use of no damping can often mean that internal standing waves reflect back through the cone of the woofer as a delay and causes a smear. And it can easily be seen in the spectral decay.
Hello Danny gave you come across a pair of B&W DM7 Mk1 (the original version). I would like to add tube connectors to my pair upgrade the crossover. I also like the feet that are on the bottom of the pedestal base. I look forward to your response.
What upgrades do you advice for my B&W dm 630 series?
Maybe I can buy an upgrade package for them?
Greetings Michael
IFAIK the shielding on home cinema centre speaker driver magnets was so they could placed on, or near, a TV and not mess up the picture.
Correct, but that only applies to older tube type TV's.
@@dannyrichie9743 indeed, but that can be only reason I can think of why they did it
@@dannyrichie9743 Although no one uses tube TVs, why are they still making shielded speakers?
Deconozco como funciona eso de la curva. Como deberia ser en teoria lo optimo? Por que los ingenieros no consideran eso en la fabricación de parlantes caros?
Would be interesting for B&W to comment. From what is presented here you wonder what they had in mind
they're currently hiring a new audio engineer
who was a former accountant
They aren't trying to make it flat and regular; I'm sure the crossover designers could do that if they wanted to. I currently have a pair of B&W next to a more accurately measuring speaker, and the B&W is very engaging but easy to listen to, though it does lack in other areas due to the coloured response.
yeah Danny.. we have big problems with inflation. all commodities are under heavy increases. also soon interest rates must rise. just my 2 cents :) thanks.
This is why JIT (just in time) is such a bad idea. It's fine when everything is running smoothly. But life is bumpy. And with every little bump, comes a disruption in the supply chain. If you haven't warehoused anything, you're looking down the barrel of a work stoppage every single time.
So these big companies trying to save money by not warehousing anything get real mean and nasty when their perfect system is disrupted by a car wreck, or a snowstorm, or a pandemic. It's their own damned fault they didn't account for life itself. Little companies like GR only have so much money for stock. For small businesses like GR, this is life. It's unusual when everything is running smooth.
Meanwhile, that new vertical off axis is nothing short of a small miracle. You've outdone yourself. 12:57 looks absolutely gorgeous.
i really wish he would do a before and after sound clip. The one thing that is forgotten in the "quest to flatten response" is that sometimes adding/modifying components may take away from the natural resonance of the speakers, while they get even they sometimes sound congested and lose some dynamics. I would have been very curious to hear before and after on this b&W.
Natural resonance of a speaker? If a speaker has a natural resonance then it isn't a speaker. It is an instrument.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sometimes... adding more components to the crossover adds more losses which removes some of the dynamics. This is why some people prefer speakers with NO crossovers or minimal element crossovers. Not saying flat is bad, but... I do wish he had some before and after sound clips.
@@franciscoortiz6980 I am a less is more kind of guy. I always only use what is necessary.
Danny, I have been watching for quite a while and I find your engineering really interesting, but there is one big hole in this (and similar) videos - the sound. Specs are great but the proof is in the listening. Hook up with Ron at NRD and do some controlled before and after on the same gear, same room, same mic placement, etc. I think you would have some really interested listeners out here in CZcamsland. Thanks for taking the time to educate us all.
Danny has addressed this several times now.
@@The_Story_Channel - thanks, but what was his position/thought?
I spend thousands of hours making listening comparisons.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks Danny, but I guess my point is that it would be really interesting to hear the results of all your work upgrading these speakers. I know you are very busy but the proof is in the listening. If you don’t have time the I understand, I just think it would really add value to these upgrade videos. Either way I appreciate your taking the time to educate us.
@@spencer476 Ask NRD. He's owned GR Research products for years. He'll tell you.
First I don't understand how B&W can make such a terrible filter, but the did.
With your new filter the measure really well. Better than many high end speakers.
Could you please try to describe the sound before and after? That's was missing from your upgrades videos.
Can you please design a crossover for tangband 2314-8" coaxial driver
Someone would have to send one to me. And if they did the crossover would only be good for that particular box and implementation. Change the way it is used and the crossover as to change as well.
Still waiting on the listing video. I can't wait for you to shut up the naysayers. Your knowledge is always good to hear stay safe.
I am waiting for Ron to get here (he is moving to Texas) and he can help me with the camera work and recording of that one.
@@dannyrichie9743 excellent!
Can someone help with a crossover idea for my b&w dm560, I'm only just getting into hi fi and new to it.
This is all great but without sound comparison not so useful. Would you please add sound comparison to your reviews to help me decide if upgrade? Thanks
No, I don't do assembly work on these. The assembly and feedback comes from the customers.
This is B&W low end ..correct?
Isn’t the shielding for TV’s or is that for tube TV’s only ?
Tube type TV's only.
I guess that series came out when some buyers would still own CRT TVs. The 683 s2 I have don't use shielding. But in 2013, most people probably wouldn't have CRT TVs
Danny. My boy Danny. My matey! DANNY! What happened to the ATC video? Some of us holding our breath here .... ;-)
Anyway, thanks for your interesting videos.
The customer sent me a pair of them. One had a bad woofer. So he wanted me to confirm what the problem was. The woofer was then sent in for a repair. I will be doing an upgrade for them that is just a parts upgrade (not a redesign) and a slight tweeter level adjustment. They measured really well though.
The B&W engineers were NOT thinking when they designed the crossover on this puppy. Bad engineering on a well respected brand name. Shame!
They are thinking, plenty. They obviously aren't going for a flat response
@@RennieAsh - best excuse for incompetence. Do you have the Book -of -Silly - Excuses in your library? That was a good one!
@@spacejaime ugh you're one of these guys...
You really think people at a multi mullion dollar company couldn't design a flat measuring speaker if they wanted to?
@@RennieAsh = committee approved designs are limited to strict budget parameters. Did not want to insult you. My apologies.
Rennie, and to add to your point, Sony can and does make superlative products, but this one speaker flunked with a big F.
Check the lateral lobing effects in the frequency measurements - awful! Cheers!
Can I buy your BW602 S2 upgrade and put it on the BW602 S1 first series?
Please get a hold of the dynaudio heritage! I think your special 40 upgrade probably surpasses the heritage 😂
Send one in.
Can you do a video on using FULL RANGE SPEAKERS.....
You mean speakers that play from 20Hz to 20kHz?
@@dannyrichie9743 Exactly....I have heard some terrific single driver full range speakers....
@@adriaticbatman Oh, you are talking about single driver speakers. Those aren't full full range. They are typically a limited range speaker. I design filters for those too. I also help develop wide band drivers. I just ordered 2,000 of our new LGK 2.0 driver.
@@dannyrichie9743 Like these...czcams.com/video/bBJPQH5--Zg/video.html Drivers are by Lil Audio, there are also drivers by Fostex, Seas, Voxativ...
“Hope y’all learned something with this one”
I learned that I will never, ever, try to design my own crossover. The wheel’s already been invented enough times.
Is focusing on making a flat speaker the only thing you care about? Do you even listen to the speakers or just see how flat you can make them?
I spend thousands of hours making listening comparisons.
@@ProfessorJohnSmith Because the flatter they are the more accurate they are. However, I also look closely at the off axis response and sometimes it is better to compensate for problems in the off axis response by an adjustment that negatively effects the on axis but gives the speaker better overall balance.
@@ProfessorJohnSmith Ah! Good question. The answer is: "What will sell!". Many listeners will not pay for a flat - response loudspeaker. The common day to day movie / pop music person does not want a flat response. They measure quality by "will it rattle my windows?"
Dude!?! Have you just watched this one video and threw out your comment? GR Research is all about listening for quality and even gets harassed for caring about audible differences that are not as yet measurable!
Hi Danny, this comment has nothing to do with the B&Ws. I was just wondering how familiar you are with the work of the late John Dunlavy and I'd be interested to get your thought on the Dunlavy and Duntech design philosophy, especially regarding the physical time alignment of the drivers.
I once spent the day with John at his facility. He was a great guy and I admired him very much. There are advantages to time aligning the drivers, but trade offs with the first order filters.
@@GRResearch Oh ok, thanks Danny. I will search your channel for mention of first-order crossovers. I have a pair of the Duntech PCL25s which have just had the tweeters replaced by the new proprietor of Duntech.
Hold on tight! The economy is bouncing back!
Unbelievable that big speaker brands use crappy parts to get a crappy frequency response. Better crossover parts and adjustment of the crossover makes a huge difference. But it’s sad it must be done afterwards and with extra costs and expertise.
Every company uses a load of hype an boastful claims when promoting their products. Talk is cheap, but it takes a lot of money and great effort to deliver a good product.You are a tribute to the audio world. Keep up the good work but it is inevitable that you have made a lot of enemies in the audio profession.
Danny, you seem to have too much in your head. Tired? You have problems with your suppliers and their delivery times. Times have been difficult during this pandemic. Nothing you can influence more than worry? Cleanse your brain with what you think is fun. Speaker measurements and upgrades! Do not forget ATC -19 which you said you would make a whole video about. So nice to see you again.
That ATC-19 measured pretty well. I will do a video on that one.
I would think there are tons of speakers in the $1500-2000 range that would crap all over this one, even from B&W.
I think a lot of people would not see the value (sonically and economically) spending a third the price of a brand new pair of speakers, to upgrade them.
Many people would say, "why not just spend the extra $$ on a better pair of speakers in the first place?".
But the problem in these price ranges, is, whether you spend $1500 or $2000, you are still going to get a pair of speakers with cheap parts, poorly braced cabinets, design errors...
$2000 spent on a pair of speakers with the types of upgrades seen in this vid, will yield a pair of speakers that sound substantially better than a $2000 commercially available pair of speakers.
Same thing as by Dynaudio: excellent drivers, lazy crossoverdesign. Why?
Why does he never show the distortion diagrams, in my experience they are key to good performance. Nonlinearity is also a distortion, but its only a small part of the whole picture.
Distortion measurements are more marketing jargon than anything. They are non-standardized and can't be accurately taken outside an anechoic chamber. And they really don't tell you anything if just looking at slight differences between speakers. A problem can be highlighted if there is one, but those same problems are often seen in other areas or in other measurements. Here is a video that I did covering that topic. czcams.com/video/YSWrT8Qk7Bc/video.html
Danny,
Your speakers are Open Baffle which is like it’s own sub culture. I wish you would get a Madisound DIY kit and review the parts on it. I’m curious if those kits use high quality parts
No need to review them. You can see the parts that they sell with each kit on their site.
why don't the speaker companies hire you Danny as a consultant to better their products in the same way Acoustic Engineering companies hire me for my expertise. You got a lot of good practical input, cuts through all of the marketing B/S.
Some do.
I'm really curious about the method used to get the bizarre results in pretty much every speaker measurements. What equipment is use to get the frequency response curves? What is the source? Test tones? It's this an in room response?? etc. Reason I'm curious is because although I don't own B&W speakers the are well know for been quite neutral and natural sounding and again a lot of good speakers brands always get horrendous results in his tests. Perdon me for being skeptical but some of this upgrades cost a lot, sometimes as much or more than the speaker itself; and I know parts used on the crossover network especially in high price speakers should be better but again to many top companies without "engineers" it's to much of a coincidence.
Based on the reviews and measurements I've seen, most B&W speakers are not "quite neutral". The D3 series have sounded way too hot in the treble every time I've heard them.
That is what you get when companies spend more on marketing than the actual products + finance dept holding back the engineers.
As an example several Andrew Jones designs get good feedback from Danny. And he clearly says that he is doing small tweaking, not major redesign. Which is half the fun with DIY.
@@marct9587 to some extent I agree to your perception of hot treble although I would characterize it as a little emphasis. My issue is the test method, when I read an Audioholics reviews they explain the test methodology and how the got there, sources, location etc. Here I just see a horrendous frequency response result and then a kit to "improve" it and the result is a ruler flat response but nothing in between. By the way I love bright treble and 📺 guess that's why I always end up with Samsung TV...lol
Many B&W measure funny but people still like the sound. It does do something nice despite the poor measurements.
Compare to an accurate measuring speaker and you will hear differences. And especially if you use "nicely recorded/mastered" tracks, then the more accurate speaker will probably be nicer to listen to.
I find that the B&W is good at making less than ideal tracks also sound great and not too fatiguing, least least some of them. Whereas the more accurate speaker may be a little harsh. It can go the other way on some tracks if they hit the peaks in the B&W response
Such shame major brand underestimate the clients, lets make some nautilus then we can sel anyting for that matter 🙄
Someone send Danny in a pair of 804 b&w please!!!
HiViNyws uses these for his cartridge and phono amp shootout videos
@@vaughntonkin539 his have the silver around the drivers and and the piano black color so they are the 804 diamond two (D2) version
People think that if they buy brand name speakers , they are getting top quality components. Couldn't be more wrong. Just build your own and blow anything in a store away.
Many people can build a speaker but not many can build a speaker correctly. There is a lot more involved than building a box, installing drivers and making a crossover, all of which is beyond the average persons ability let alone knowing how to match parts, take measurements and tune a box.
Begs the question "How is it that a major speaker company can't do the same job of developing a proper XO?
That was the BBC dip my friend. Its supposed to be there.
You just made the speaker too bright and unpleasant to listen to. Sure the response looks much smoother...on paper
I guess the customer was happy with it and then he tired of the BBC dip.
That hole is caused by the drivers not being is phase very well. It isn't designed to be there.
Don't buy B&W below the 700 series, which in fact is very good albeit at a hefty price.
That's where their skilled engineering is.
The "lower" range is for nice looking cabinets for people who don't know any better and won't notice the sound very much or care.
Is it that much better? The higher end ones still measure "funny" compared to flat. They just don't seem to be going for that kind of performance.
606 S2 is pretty good though
The factory response of this Bowers and Wilkins speaker is downright shameful for something claiming to be a prestige item.
it kind of defeats the purpose of this design to modify it like this. B&W designed the mid driver with little up down motion for the purpose that it would be crossed high. So the crucial range between 500hz and 4-5khz is relatively free from driver transitions and typical tweeter fast response and brightness, which is why its not as bright either. The mid driver is a similiar design to that used in the Funktion one PA range, (which crosses a pulp driver at 7khz before the tweeter) except funktion one solved the dispersion problem with horn loading phase plug design (for a mid driver) that is patented so other manufacturers cannot use it. The reason behind all this is that these two manufacturers (and listeners) believe that these mid drivers actually sound a lot better in the mid range than the other options, even though the cost is bad off-axis response. Whether its kevlar or paper drivers. When buying these speakers one needs to know their purpose and that they need to be used for sweet spot listening rather than room speakers. I actually built my own fully active speaker using the B&W kevlar woofer, funktion one mid and B & W tweeter so know something of the sonic benefits. I did carry out tests with a whole bunch of mid level plastics based hifi drivers comparing them against kevlar and funktion one (fane pulp driver). These kevlar and paper drivers definetly convey more information, its like all the plastic drivers are losing information. But unfortunatley I dont know a test which can prove this. I understand your channel is focussed mostly on what you can change in your business operation.. but it would be greate if you can look into more this type of science of the drivers (upgrading them) and other types of testing.. Although I guess thats practically designing a new speaker.
People sitting with their fingers up their buts plus lower stocks than normal is hard
Typical B&W x-over 🥴🤬 The mid, woofer look to be OK designed. Tweeter, have no idea what to expect.
B&W is cheap Chinese junk. The shielding is to prevent warpage in your tv pictures due to magnetism. Not sure its needed nowadays with led and all.
Unshielded speakers only messed up CRT TVs putting a blue smudge on top left of screen, my Dad in 84 mought an entertainment cabinet for his Sharp TV and Sharp 118 compact HiFi system with flat woofers and front load TT, the magnets in those speakers were unshielded and messed up the screen on the TV
I cannot understand this. Are there complete idiots working at B&W? If I was their chief, this so called engineers would be fired as soon as possible!
Measuring as straight as a ruler can sound uninteresting.
No, not at all. That just means it is accurate. It tells you little at all about how it sounds.
Just shows you how bad a finished product has been made and not suitable at all for a center speaker
Damn, I'm really impressed with the off axis response... Incredibly smooth. A little big for a center channel, but I'm surprised we dont see more designs that can do what these do. Especially with how bad the cancellation can be with most typical MTM center channels.