House Velaryon having Dragons was ALWAYS gonna cause problems | House Of The Dragon Analysis
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2023
- House Velaryon having access to Dragons was always gonna cause problems sooner or later from the moment Princess Rhaenys Targaryen married Corlys, then allowing their children Laena and Laenor to also have them. A house with a rival claim to the throne having access to super weapons could be seen as a real political misstep. In this video we take a look at how dragons are the power of House Targaryen and by allowing other houses access to that power diminishes their own.
House Velaryon having Dragons was ALWAYS gonna cause problems | House Of The Dragon Analysis
The Dance Of The Dragons will be the focus of the plot of the new HBO spin-off House Of The Dragon coming in 2022. So if you want to learn the story before we see HBO's take on it then this will be a very long-running series. Game Of Thrones / House of the dragon are HBO shows based on George R R Martin's A Song Of Ice And Fire series. The information in this video comes from the books a world of ice and fire as well as fire and blood.
Will A Dream Of Spring Ever Be Release? House Of The Dragon / ASOIAF speculation & Analysis
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Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen was trapped on Dragonstone by her brother King Aegon ii with no way to escape her fate. What was to come was the final showdown between the two main players of the dance of the dragons and bring the war into its final phase. The House of the dragon was crumbling and the events that was about to follow would only cause more damage to both sides of the war.
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Just a quick
Note, while Vhgar goes on to be claimed by Vhgar by Aemond there was still a huge potential for someone else claiming her before Aemond from House Velaryon. What i wanted to tackle in this video is the political issues another dragon riding house would possess.
That's what I didn't get in the book
Jahaerys was so afraid that a dragon in someone else's possession will threaten his rule, he ordered the search of eggs stolen from Elissa Farman, he even negotiated terms with Bravosi
Even Rhaena didn't want Lannisters to have an egg
Then what made them to give eggs to Laena and Laenor
The case of Luke, Jace and Joff is different both their parents were dragonriders and their mother was heir to the throne
Aemond is not Velaryan. He the son of Viserys and Alicent, so he’s Targaryen and Hightower. Maybe you’re thinking of Vaemon, the brother of Corlys?
@@carastone3473 he is saying that there was a chance of Vhagar being claimed by someone from house Velaryon if Aemond had not claimed her
@vishalmishra579 Laena and Laenor were given eggs out of respect for their mother, Princess Rhaenys, I would think.
Brother, you are my go-to for any GOT cannon.
The mistake that was made was allowing Rhaenys to Marry Corlys Velaryon. Jaehaerys should have betrothed Rhaenys to Viserys the moment he knew Jocelyn Baratheon, who is his sister, refused to have any more children. The one time Jaehaerys makes a decision based on emotions instead of Logic he screws up his family for generations. It could be said that the decision to allow Aemon and Rhaenys their choice was the decision which eventually led to the downfall of House Targaryen…
Yeah, as much as i love Corlys, Rhaenys absolutely should have married Viserys to prevent war. Corlys could marry Aemma Arryn if they still want a Targ connection to him, without risking dragons because Aemma and Daella were never riders.
@@chrisrubin6445aemma flew dreamfyre i believe
@@drrohanjacob5343 Aemma Arryn never flew a dragon. Dreamfyre was hatched by Rhaena, daughter of Aenys I and Alyssa Velaryon. After Rhaena dies, Dreamfyres only other rider is Halaena Targaryen.
Alysanne is the one who matched Aemon with Jocelyn Baratheon, and bringing the Sea Snake into the fold was not a bad political move. Nobody could have foreseen all the early, and some very suspicious, passings of Jaehaerys' heirs.
@@Jacaerys4life Aemon with Jocelyn is a good match, that i dont think anyone complains about, AND Corlys was a rich, important rising star in Westeros. That being said at the time of his marriage to Rhaenys, she is 18 years old, and the only child of Aemon, the heir to the Iron Throne. At this moment in time, everyone thinks Aemon will outlive his father and become king. Anyone with half a brain can figure out that once Aemon is king, his heir is Rhaenys, and therefore she shouldnt be patrilineally married to a man from an outside house with her children not being Targaryens by name. Wheras if she married her younger cousin Viserys, there is not even any possible ambiguity about who the next heirs would be.
The Velaryon branch of the family descending from Rhaenys are the most senior heirs of House Targaryen by absolute primogeniture and male preference primogeniture. Even though set precedent follows male only primogeniture, I suppose these other minor claims might be a factor. I would subscribe to the idea that they take the throne as Targaryen-Velaryons or something like that. However, even though the Velaryons represent this rival claim it's not them that causes the Dance. It's Viserys naming Rhaenyra and creating a new claimant within House Targaryen that wouldn't be there otherwise and isn't his first born son ultimately dividing their house first. Then he tries to unite his daughter with the Velaryon rival claimant Laenor to stand against the would be heir of House Targaryen Aegon. If we are talking House politics, Viserys basically gives the Velaryons the crown through Rhaenyra and I know this is a rather patriarchal lense but that's what Westerosi noble houses are. The name change thing that Viserys suggests doesn't fix anything. Let us imagine a scenario where Rhaenyra is queen and her 3 Velaryon sons all have their own children that are also Velaryon. Jace ascends the throne becoming Targaryen. The situation we have is one where there is an expansive royal family, all Velaryon, and the one on the throne is called Targaryen. "Targaryen" is basically reduced to a title for kings of any house which is double confusing since there would still be actual Targaryens like Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, Daemon, and their descendants running around. It's confusing and royal names are not something that change like that on a whim. There's a reason why something like this isn't in the book. Rhaenyra's sons planned to ascend the throne as Velaryons or Targaryen-Velaryon technically.
I'd argue that the best way to unite the claims of Velaryon and Targaryen was to marry Aegon II and Baela.
Much of what you say has merit but I would posit that equal primogeniture is a Dornish concept that isn't really a thing in the rest of Westeros. The Great Council of 101 made it clear that agnatic primeniture was the rule of succession which is what Viserys naming Rhaenyra heir was so egregious in the first place. His heir should have been Daemon until his sons by Alicent were born and then Aegon would be the new heir. Luckily history itself corrects Viserys error by making sure that Rhaenyra's three strong boys were killed off and that it was her sons with Daemon who continued the Targaryen line. Black supporters would have us believe that Rhaenyra won because her son ended up on the throne in the end. I however take a different view, if one of her sons with Laenor (sorry, I meant Harwin) had become King that argument would have been valid but the very fact that it was her son with Daemon that became King and continued the bloodline meant that the straight male line of Aegon the Conqueror was preserved during the Targaryen rule, subsequent Targaryens took great care to ensure this by passing over females in order to the ensure the salic law was continued, even Daemon Blackfyre claimed the throne through his father and not his mother. It would take the War of the Usurper to bring a female line descendant to the throne and even then they had to seize it by force instead of inheriting it
@@truetory6231Daenerys
Aegon II marrying Baela.🤭🤪
meanwhile Otto hey Daemon what do you think if my Grandson marry one of your Daughters , then Daemon say i rather Feed my Daughters too Dragons than marry your Bitch Grandson NOPE ZERO CHANCE TO HAPPEN.
Brilliant. Here is someone who sees it for what it is. Viserys himself was the one who caused the dance. He was a weak, emotional man that allowed his emotion to drive him into naming his daughter heir when he had a son. He felt guilty that his first wife died so he felt endeared to his first daughter and naming her his heir was his own way of evening things up. Unfortunately he sidelined his other children, for no reason. Ostracized them for no real reason. It was this Otto capitalized on and the rest is history.
Naming Aemond II would have ensured the realm was kept as one and betrothing Aemond II son or daughters to Rhaenyra's son or daughter would have ensured there was peace. But he took the stupid decision to name her, sided with her at every turn, wouldn't even solidify her hold to the throne before he died.
A foolish foolish foolish man.
I think that Rhaenys played both her cousin and grandparents. She knew that without dragons her childerens claim to the throne would be unthinkable. The kings felt sorry for her and gave her childeren the chance to have dragons to keep the peace.
First to take the black…
When you share dragons, you share power…
I feel that Corlys having a son Laenor who became a dragon rider on top of his wife having one…
It boosted ego and power…
Corlys had an ego, in the show.
I gotta read the world of ice and fire
And I must thank you for the upload of the butchers ball and this one too. My girlfriend was visiting from Texas and she loved watching this over dinner!!
Thanks for the wonderful content my lord, the realm owes you a debt that cannot be repaid
The only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon is itself love that line also Emma delivery was on point plus the score kicks in.
The Velaryons have had the Blood of the Dragon since before the time of Lord Aerion of Dragonstone, Aegon the Conqueror's father. Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys' mother was Valaena Velaryon and her mother was an as of yet unnamed and unknown Targaryen. And that's just the earliest match that we know of, their connections could go back even further. House Velaryon really always has been a cadet branch of the Targaryens. Surprising that they only got dragons in the time of Corlys the Sea Snake, they have always been steadfast and loyal.
Vaemond said as much before he kept his tongue…
@@alexmartin3143 Vaemond, Malentine, Rhogar, and the other three unnamed / unknown Velaryons that join Malentine and Rhogar to make up the Silent Five are the only example of any Velaryons ever going against the head of their own family and the Iron Throne itself.
These guys were so far down the line of succession of Driftmark they believed that joining the scheming of the Geens was the only way they would ever gain anything of substance. The hilarious thing is that if they just fell in line behind Corlys their descendants could have been dragon riders just as the Sea Snakes were. Vaemond was an absolute buffoon.
they were from Valyria but they were NOT Dragonlords nor were they Dragonriders. the only reason Laenor and Laena were able to bond w dragons is bc they inherited this trait from their mother, Rhaenys
where is the proof?
Once a Monarch has more than one child there is a potential challenge to the throne. It was the 2nd marriage to Allicent that caused the conflict because that created a rival heir. Allowing House Valerion dragon did not cause the conflict itself. They always looked to marry into the line of succession rather than usurp it. House Valerion were even cautious to rebel against the Greens but it was the Greens betrayl of Vicerys agreed succession that pushed them to rebel. A smarter move for House Valerion would have been to bethroth one of one of the twins to Aegon which would have hedged their bets. Vicerys also should have never recalled Otto to be hand because he already knew of his scheming nature. He'd have been better off opting for a Tyrell a Tully or a Stark. I would have said a Baratheon but Boros couldn't read so 🤷🏿♂️
I agree with this one.
If the King didn't marry Allicent he would have likely married someone else and if that person had a son for him, you damn sure can bet that the events of thus far would replay itself.
You guys are too fixated on the characters themselves and not understanding it is tradition and culture that a male be heir. What Otto did, someone else in his stead would have done.
Viserys is the main reason behind the fall of House Targaryen. He was a weak emotional man and he should not have named Rhaenyra heir to the throne. It was an emotional decision he made because he felt responsible for his wife's demise and somehow wanted to endear himself to his first daughter. It's really that simple.
Great video. I would argue that anyone outside of the inheritance line with Dragons is going to cause problems. The policy of giving Dragon Eggs to every Tom, Dick, and Aegon with Targaryen as their last name was bound to create serious issues. There is no known way to administer birth control to dragons that I'm aware of, so what happens when a cadet branch of the family has a particularly fecund dragon, leading to that cadet branch having more dragons than the King himself? The Dance was bound to happened, it just so happened to play out with Rhaenyra and crew. If the dragons hadn't danced then, they would have danced during the Blackfyre Rebellion. The giving of Dragon Eggs to every infant Targaryen's is heartfelt, and a great gesture amongst family, but absolutely terrible as a policy of state.
How do you decide who get a dragon what if the parent have a dragon and it has egg it only natural for the kids to inherit not giving them dragons could also cause problems the best thing to do is to make sure that the main line as the biggest and strongest dragons
@@josiahdavis1216 I hear you, but you can’t ensure that the Kings line has the biggest baddest dragons. There is no way to tell which dragon and which eggs will yield the biggest dragons, and if you start trying to seize dragons, you’re right back at Dance of The Dragons again. It’s far too powerful a tool to be handed out so carelessly. It was bound to cause havoc.
@@Kwasimitsu I diss agree instead of giving them eggs to hatch let them try to bound with the biggest and strongest first
Technically, it could be argued that House Targaryen gave the Hightowers access to dragons as well through Alicent’s children.
No because Alicent's children are targs
Yup, evidenced by Daeron being the ward of Ormund… I’ve always seen that as a very calculated move. Tessarion had basically been assigned as a form of protection for Old Town.
Seasmoke was probably hatched from Laenors cradle egg, laid by Meleys, not much Jaehaerys or later Viserys could have done to prevent that besides hunting down Rhaenys and Meleys.
I think the system should be that all access to dragon eggs and the right to claim a dragon should only be granted when the respective Targaryen has proven themself worthy.
It would be like the sword of house Dayne, Dawn, where it is not granted to the lord, but the family member who has earned it. Have claiming a dragon without completing the rituals be treason, punishable by death
@@Isuream6331 Who determines worthiness? Aegon the Conquerer knighted Maegor, and certainly saw him as worthy, Rhaegar thought Gregor Clegane was a worthy knight. Aegon 4 gave his bastard Blackfyre, and if he had dragons to give would certainly have deemed Daemon worthy in that way as well, if only to spite Daeron. Arthur Dayne stood by as Aerys raped and tortured his sister wife for years, and stood by as the Starks were murdured, he did nothing upon Aerys planting bombs beneath KL, so how well is the Dayne system of honor working out even?
@@chrisrubin6445 The king would decide who. Look, it ain’t flawless, but it would at least limit the number of dragonriders
Giving house Velaryon dragons is like when Edward III have each of his sons massive plots of land via marriage and in turn gave them large armies. That led to the wars of the roses
Not exactly. House Targaryen had plenty of issues. With or without Dragons
I had initially thought that a Targaryen child was given an egg or a dragon if at least one of the parents was a dragon rider. IIRC, Aemma Arryn didn't have one because her mother was afraid to bond with one. If it was Queen Alysanne that gave Seasmoke to Leanor, I'm surprised she didn't give one to Aemma after her mother died. I do wonder what would have happened if Rhaenyra had married into a non-Valyrian house. Had her children through that marriage have gotten egss or hatchings? It does make more sense to "keep it in the family" and you bring up many excellent points.
Rhaenyra's children does have a NON-valyrian father.
@@EB-dz1gd yes but her father was clearly blind. I'm thinking Syrax laid those eggs so whether or not both parents had Valyrian blood didn't really matter if that was the case.
Could Seasmoke be s Maelys egg? For Vhagar, at least from the show, it kind of seemed as though she was wandering about so maybe Rhaenys and Laena had a fun mother-daughter trip to find Vhagar.
Meleys*
also there was no record of meleys ever laying eggs. Dreamfyre, Syrax, Meraxes, and Vhagar all laid clutches in fire and blood but never meleys that we know of. seasmoke is likely syrax's egg or dreamfyre's, dreamfyre laid the most eggs of any dragon and dany's dragons were dreamfyre's kids.
An even more interesting dilemia is how does House Targaryen maintain a healthy population of dragons without devastating the countryside?
In Valyria before the Doom there were thousands of dragons how did they manage to feed them?
We know that some dragons had preferences for certain prey so they may have specialized to reduce competition
An interesting thing to note is that in a Song of Ice and Fire we do not hear of Daenery's dragons preying upon those people living in Meeren while it is under her rule this could hint at their level of intelligence yet we must also remember the attacks on those living in the countryside of Slaver's Bay
It is very possible that the Freehold of Valyria saw a dramatic increase in the number of dragons after the Valyrians began bonding with the great beasts there must be some benefits for the dragons for them to have bonded with their riders in the first place although this is pure speculation since we do not have any known records of the habits of "wild dragons"
I don’t really think anyone could have stopped the Velaryon having dragons. I mean the Conquerors mother was a Velaryon Jeaherys mother was a Velaryon. And it’s likely that Melys birthed Seasmoke
Imagine if Orys Baratheon had a dragon during the conquest
Love ur work
Say what you will about Viserys, but him putting his foot down with Rhaenyra about her marrying Laenor helped her in the long run during the war especially with Laena and Daemon being married around the same time. So big dubs by bossman Viserys
Thats why the targs hould never have let their daughters marry outside the family.
I think the dragonseeds are a perfect example of how House Targaryen sharing their dragons was a huge mistake, the destruction of Tumbletown by the traitors dragonseeds changed the tides of the war
Well those particular dragon seeds turned out to be power hungry pieces of crap. Because Adam Velaryon turned out to be loyal.
Imagine if instead of marrying into House Velaryon, princes Aemon and Baelon insisting on marrying their children Rhaenys and Viserys?
I see, dragons are not property.
So that was Daenery's first mistake!
Thanks
This maybe a very stupid question too ask but if rhaenys dragon meleys laid eggs and she gave the eggs too any children she had and she hatched them herself would that still be treasons.
I mean what assets? by the point of the dance the only Velaryon dragon rider is Beala. Leana and Leanor is dead. Vhegar is whit the greens and Seasmoke would have been born anyway and any dragon seed could have ridden him (the strong boys, whether they were hidden as Leanor sons or another man would still had eggs)
Still, as Targaryens needed to marry onto cousin families, it was a matter of time for dragons to appear in this families, as Targaryens would want their offsprings to have eggs. Also, the Velaryons came to westeros on their own, from Valiria.... so maybe they always had them, unrelated to the Targaryen family.
Wow sorry i know it's not the real subject of the video but i just got an image on my head of Alyn Velaryon with a dragon. damn that would have been unpredictable.
I think it was a foolish thing to send Daeron to oldtown since it created a situation whereby the greens have a dragon in their center of power, one that’s about the size of Vermax.
Honestly its surprising that House Baratheon didn't end up with any Dragons. Their founder was a Targaryen bastard, they Married Targaryens multiple times, and were strong allies with the Targaryens.
I always wondered why Orys never bonded with a dragon, he was considered to be Aegon the Conqueror's only true friend yet still no dragon. The only Baratheon marriage during the time of dragons was to a Velaryon, Alyssa to Rogar, and we know how conservative Jaehaerys was with dragons.
@@Jacaerys4lifethere was only three dragons at the time.
@@Jacaerys1The Cannibal?
@@ucnguyenanh9414Cannibal is only * Rumored older than the 3 OG Dragons * but GRRM shoot it down already when he confirm in the interview in HOTD behind the scene that theres no other Dragons that survived the Doom besides those brought in Dragonstones by the Targaryens .
Because they are basically one family branch there's not much to think about it
They should’ve given dragons to House Celtigar as well
They needed to ceremonialize and institutionalize dragonriders being bound to the crown and compelled to take an oath of fealty to the ruling monarch.
2nd to take the black
Vaghar should have been off limits to Laena. Too powerful. Give her two dragon eggs in hopes that one hatches.
I have to disagree. Valyria had 40 Dragonlord families, and god knows how many Dragons were flying around. They made it work, no one person took charge in all that time, till after the Doom.
House Velaryon and Celtigar having dragons wouldn't have been a problem in the same light. All the 7 Kingdoms have their own armies, instead of a single Westerosi force, hardly anyone ever talks about that being a problem until Robert and even Joffery mentioned it.
Now, if anyone disagrees, that's fine. House Velaryon and Targaryen can marry all they like, but if a female Targaryen dragonrider wants/has to marry outside of their house, then they still can, just don't give their kids any eggs. As for claiming a Dragon, well, Velaryons are of the Valyrian race so, they could just claim one regardless. But since the Targaryens are Dragonlords, they got the first rights/final say on their monopoly on the Dragons.
Rhaenys could've just not have given Laenor a Dragon egg, and the King could've forbade any Velaryon or Celtigar from claiming a Dragon. But, considering how intertwined the Targaryens/Velaryons are, they're basically kin on every level, probably as much of each other's houses' blood in all their members by this time.
40 dragon families that rules over damn near the entirety of essos they most likely has regions of influence and control.
They’re was no usurpation attempts because there wasn’t some big boss at the top .
@@hclw3589
Valyria had most all those families even in its younger years, before half of the Free cities were even a thing
Didn’t they always have the blood of the dragon? They had been marrying and having descendants with House Targaryen since they came over.
House velaryon having dragons but they not cause of any war unlike otto and Alicent
House Valerian was not a problem. The problem was House Hightower!
Exactly