Worst Client We Ever Had | Etsy v3 Comments | Filament Almost Fixed | 3D Printing News
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0:00 Audible
0:52 Ursa Major Successfully Launches 3D Printed Rocket Engine
2:58 Firestorm Labs Containerize Drone Factories
4:52 Voxeljet Delisting from NASDAQ
6:25 Purchased News Articles are a Problem
8:53 Filament Almost Back
11:17 Responding to Etsy Video Comments
24:44 The Worst Client We Ever Had
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She wasn't angry about your response, she was reaching for something to be angry about, anything. Looking for an excuse. Shes angry at herself for failing.
This is a crazy story; I know it’s hard not to name names when mad, but as you said in the podcast, you can’t let emotions take over in business interactions. I am 95% sure I know what start-up your referencing due to some of the context clues and the certification and plastic things. And it’s wild to see such a cool and helpful product fall not due to the product but due to the lack of suitable processes and poor leadership. Keep doing what you're doing; I and so many others love your videos and, most importantly your personality and insight. Have a great day.
Park and Diamond helmets? There’s so many kickstarter scams, hard to say which one it could be.
In the aftermath of having to deal with that client, did you change to process to verify financials? That was one of the check items at my previous employer and if the other companies financial were iffy then there would be no arrangement.
I would also like to add Rocket Lab. Their Rutherford engine is their main workhorse and never failed. They even re lit one after it splashed down
The "Worst Client We Ever" is a great learning lesson for all businesses. Thanks for sharing this crazy story. I'd expect the 3d-print business is still small enough that word of bad actors, or bankruptcies gets around.
Was wise decision to not name publicly in an online video that can't be easily edited.
Best outcome would be to wait for the company to go out of business, and pick up the design IP to manufacture the design in future (having invested the effort in understanding the product, and processes).
Possessing the business sense to see a path to turn a neat product into a viable business is something not all startup founders/investors have. Where it's questionable how it relates to helping Slant 3d grow its core business of increasing overall production volume.
The fact they didn't even want to work with you to improve cost of things is what gets me (not even being willing to give you something as simple as zip codes, something that should just be with the order anyway) NotLikeThis
I’ve seen breech of contracts happen in different industries over the last 20+ years. Usually poor management, lack of understanding contracts and lack of cash flow are the big drivers.
I recall a supplier, about 25 years ago, who bailed on a multimillion dollar rail spikes order we had already paid for because they were changing ownership. The new owners felt they didn’t need to fulfill the contract the previous owners agreed to.
I used to work in the courts here, and I can assure you, the legal system doesn't actually want you to sue anyone either. That's why there's so many ways of trying to settle a problem *before* it goes to court.
Also: I don't know for certain about Idaho, but most jurisdictions have rules and laws governing how to decide which creditors get paid first. Well, the Crown gets paid *first*, but after that there's usually rules. It might *seem* random, and there's always a chance the judge just picked names out of a hat, but probably someone actually decided the order.
We’ve had lots of kickstarter clients. When they have money, they’re great. It’s typically not sustainable though and they eventually turn into head aches… we had one that gave us a $120,000 PO so we paid the 20k in tooling needed. They then said they only needed 1/4 of the parts when they were ready and claimed that the PO was only budgetary and wasn’t binding. We worked with them to use all the parts eventually, but they were way off on their projections.
Okay. So what is the learning moment in the bad client situation so that it doesn't happen in the future?
Do you vet your clients better? (Being burned by Kickstarter companies is a tale old as time.)
Do you require a deposit or trust$ to make sure they keep their word? They would be the ones paying for the material, storage fees for material and finished product?
With my experience in a job shop, the amounts of times a salesperson has said, we'll be ordering XX every month FOR SURE, (give us your best price, of course) and end up ordering X every 6 months, makes me never believe a single word out of a salespersons mouth.
Covering your arse methods are needed and sometimes only learned (sadly) through experience.
Around 16:00 you mentioned PLA, are you guys going to start offering ABS/ASA/Nylon? I know youre making the filament in house currently but some of what i ship is used for automotive applications
Is the overstock of red filament in a format that the Tangled community could buy it to help offset the loss?
I hate that "that client" happened to you guys. We had almost the exact same story but we lost the company because of it as they were a large part of our revenue stream. I see the frustration and I want to add: No, we didn't interact with the company you mentioned but the one we did followed the almost exactly the same abuse and it cost several people their jobs and livelihood as a result.
@Gabe I realize most if not all your products are being printed in PLA. Do you have an ETA when you might have the capability to print all TPU products? And when you do, will it be possible to choose a specific color for those prints? I have a product but it needs to be printed in TPU, I would love to support you guys but I don't think you're setup for TPU yet, am I correct?
Please don't dox the bad client. If you warned other print farms and talked to the investors everybody who needs to know already knows.
Don't wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty but the pig likes it.
Pigs actually don't enjoy being dirty as much as many seem to think, but I get your point
I have no need for the information on that designer that was going after cutting their expenses with you to make their product profitable. I would note that since the community of print farm companies is relatively small yet, passing on to other print farm owners that company XYZ needs to be zeroed out of their client base before they screw them too, is the best plan. If you have a way of making the terms of your contract with them available (that probably involves a discussion with your lawyer, and a clause to the contract that addresses breach of contract penalties._) that may be helpful as well. But contract law is not my line of work, so I understand not doing that.
Thanks for the podcast! Every week i think im getting one step closer to being able to make the things i want to make!
In Scotland have Skyrora and Orbex both printing rocket engines
For the 4kg spools, is there a good adapter for a Bambu P1S? Can you recommend one or make one available to download and print?
Something I've learned is that I trust myself more than most other people to do the right thing, so where possible I put myself in the position where I'm the one that has the leverage to screw over them and not the other way around, because I know that I won't.
I opened this video to hear what happened with bad client, and I'm surprised to hear that you didn't mention any payments in advance? I've been reading advice for painters when doing commissions, and one of the first advice is - half upfront, before even starting thinking about it. Some even demand full payment and only have few corrections in that price. As long as conditions are clear, I see no problem with it. And the deal in question was probably much larger than one painting. Ok, I get it that maybe payment is done by end client after order is made, however, I'd then approach in 'prepaid for batch' from company you're making contract with. I don't know, 1k pieces, they have to pay your price in full, then if they want to continue, they have to pay next batch. With time you can increase batch sizes, but I don't think it's ever wise to go postpaid when big money is at stake. With end customer who orders 1-10 pieces for 100 usd each, you can be generous with waiting. But I think at least you have to get covered in materials before you start producing anything for someone. So that way you only lose salaries, not inventory costs. And it's understandable if they can't estimate or afford 'millions of items per year', that's where batches come into play.
And yes, all special things you have to do for them, they pay. If you're extra generous, you can put it as a voucher and discount later after they reach amount x spend with you. Like for example dentists who will bill you for exam, but then reduce that amount from the work if you decide to work with them. Or laser surgery for the eye.
I'm sorry they screwed you, and I hope the amount of money won't risk putting you out of the business.
And no, since you're in USA, don't name them in video or writing. What's shared while drinking beer with your buddies, that's another story ;) But it seems that you've already warned directly your fellow print farm friends, so that's covered.
So, regulating emotions not only to stay professional now, but also to not gift your time and money to someone who doesn't deserve it, just because they have a potential product you like ;)
Just remember - you're not a bank. If they even can't get a loan from the bank to get the money to pay you in advance - you have your answer how feasible idea it is :)
People who believe in their product will put mortgage on their real estate, and work hard to not risk losing head over their heads. I'd be even harsher than you - if you're not profitable in 2 years, radically change or close the doors. But that's not current 'startup culture' - idea today is to get as much money as possible, and convince someone to buy your business, and then you're out. People are not building business to last, they just want bunch of cash from selling it to someone else. My experience is from IT world, but it seems many other startups share the same goals.
If I'm not mistaken, culture in Brazil is that you have to be profitable from start, otherwise, close the door. That sounds maybe too harsh, however, that leads to really thinking through your idea and working hard for it. And knowing what you're doing.
Anyhow, let that be the last really bad client! :)
Question about multiple parts on the print bed. You've mentioned in previous videos that dozens of small parts on the same bed are problematic because of bed adhesion and parts popping off mid print. However, the parts I want to sell are in that category and grouping them is much more cost effective.
My question is, if a customer buys one of these products and one of the parts fails on your printers, will you reprint it? It would be problematic if you were shipping out failed prints on our behalf.
There very best types of products are a single part on a single print bed.
@@slant3d I understand that, but since you're API allows me to upload such models, I'm asking specifically what will happen in the case I mentioned above
@@slant3d that wasnt the question tho
One thing I wonder about is adding heat inserts to reinforce screw/bolt holes. That would be an extremely useful addition to parts, especially boxes and enclosures are opened and closed. That might be a useful add-on to offer.
Sounds like the client had bad accounting from the start. I’d definitely pursue litigation against that client. They can’t just dip out on a signed contract. 😂
Re: including screws etc, would something like "pack whatever you want into a standard #10 envelope, and we'll throw it into the box with your product" work as a semi-custom option, or do the economics not make sense? I imagine the hardware kit shipping client->slant3d could at least be consolidated somewhat
Got any tips or literature you can suggest for me to study to help my etsy
Thanks for explaining the story. I've had a client try to screw me before so I'm weary.
As someone who has been in similar a positions with some very bad actors, this experience rang very true and it brought all this back. At the time, I didn’t have the funds to keep the legal action going, so I gave up, however if I had, I would have gone through just to get them off the grid. These kinds of companies are not just toxic with business relationships but they also create toxic cultures for their employees.
I’d love a Shopify connector. Would you be able to handle multiple items in a cart?
Why is it bad form to state the fact of what a bad person did? They're doing bad things and not suffering consequences.
Couple of reasons:
#1: the court of public opinion doesn't guarantee both sides of a dispute get their stories heard. Whoever has the bigger platform, the better communicators, or even just goes public first gets to tip the scales immensely in their favor.
#2: It will severely hurt the wronged company's ability to get new business. Because from one point of view it looks like "company X did something scummy to company Y, and Y's only recourse is to tell everyone about it." But from the point of view of a prospective customer it can look like: "If you deal with company Y, and something happens that they don't like, they'll go screaming to the public and make you look bad." (Whether that's true or not, that's what the customer has to consider.)
And #3: (and this is being superlatively charitable to the company that screwed them) If their situation is as dire as it seemed, then they did what they did as a last-ditch effort to save their operation from crashing and burning. Putting them on blast publicly could make it impossible for them to right themselves, guaranteeing their total failure, along with every other partner, customer, and employee they have. With no further benefit to the people they wronged except spite.
@@DerrangedGadgeteer All that, plus you can wind up getting sued by the bad actor(s) for defamation, or whatever other petty crap they can think of. Probably not going to happen in this particular case if the client is in as bad financial shape as Gabe surmises, but you never know.
I 3d print and sell on Amazon, are there any plans to create an API for them? Or is it possible? I am a developer for my day job, so I can start to look into it. But I would like to know if you guys have already looked into it or if it just hasn't come up yet.
We won't be able to do amazon for awhile. If someone can beat us to it that would be great. The API will be releasing this week so developers like yourself can make something.
@@slant3d I figured that was the situation. If I can find the time I'll look at the API. Hopefully, I can make enough on Amazon to justify spending time to get their API figured out.
I just watched a video about an extruder swap mod you can do to any printer that lets you print with pellets instead of filament. It seems like it could be pretty good for print farms, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts. The video is by Greenboy3D.
You have to keep in mind that if you push back too hard against a bad client it might discourage good clients from doing business with you.
19:58 you addressed work needed to assemble inserts ...etc. but what about just throwing them in the box without assembly.
I'm pretty sure you address it in your upload process, one of the most annoying problems I've run into is designers who work in imperial units rather than metric units. Yes I simply have to scale the itty bitty part that was dropped into the slicer by 25400% to be a useful print, but it's a pain, especially when it's something I need to re-slice for a new printer. Oh well... But that's going to be an issue for a few designers, and is a very good reason to do a print test as part of preparing for using someone else's print farm. Wern't looking for a part that's 1:25.4 of your design goals? Good thing you did that test print, eh?
Any halfway modern slicer can convert from imperial to metric when you import the file. I tend to design in whichever system makes the most sense for the project I am working on... Usually that's metric because the printers are made in metric and work in metric, but if I am designing something to fit other parts that were obviously originally designed in imperial dimensions, I will often stick with that unless there is some other overriding reason to convert.
@@netpackrat The slicer needs to be able to recognize what units the model is using. As I say I have at least 2 models that I know don't include that information for some reason, and dropping the model into the slicer and not correcting for the difference has to be done by scaling the resulting model. Perhaps the slicer that I'm using that's under continuous development _isn't_ a modern slicer, but I'm more inclined to believe that either the model doesn't properly declare whether it is using imperial or metric units, or as you say, perhaps the slicer is incapable of recognizing that declaration.
I'm not saying that using either standard is bad. Just noting that it's something to be aware of when you're working on having anyone print a design. That means that someone using the API should buy a copy of their product, before making it available to the public at large, both to make sure that the model specific units are handled correctly. Probably best to do that as well, if there is a requirement for tolerance validation.
@@RNMSC PrusaSlicer (and I assume its derivatives like bambu/orca) usually detects automatically (not always), but there's also a menu option to import an STL that's in imperial units.
I had assumed that Cura was similar, but it looks like I was wrong about that. You have to add a plugin to Cura to import imperial models directly. Seems like that is something they should just incorporate into the slicer directly, but maybe it's a religious thing for the developers.
@@netpackrat Yeah, Cura could use that. For me the frequency isn't enough that I really need the feature. I know how to scale by 25400 percent to adjust. It's a kludge, but like I say, easy enough, and it results in printable gcode. But without knowing what a given print farm operator is using as a slicer, test is best practice. 🙂
maybe a small 2d printing farm for part instractions (for the user)
Pumped for you to get PETG or TPU.
Oof that bad client story is frustrating to even listen to, I can't imagine actually being the one to call/email that client.
I think there is no need to share the name, the experience was plenty for those that were unaware of these types of situations. If you come up with techniques for dealing with the situation, for protecting yourself/company, please do share those. On a side note, it feels like the CEO was under the impression that if they checked all the specific boxes, things are just supposed to work. Just because you completed the checklist, that doesn't guarantee success.
No don't share the name. Great rant as always.
+1 for Shopify app.
That was your worst customer?
Hold my beer.
??
4:17 "If the company doesnt grow in 5 years, there's quite frankly something wrong with them".....Well pretty sure most of us can guess what was wrong with that company. 🤣
We all now have to try to find out who this awful company is. Anyone have any ideas?
And I mean, you can be a restaurant or something, nothing shameful in finding your personal management capacity and staying at a certain size! If you are however *losing money* on not growing for 5 years,
Give me PETG!!
When you say, "Get them out of circulation," you could seem malicious. Watch out if you are going through litigation.
re worst client,.... How much did they owe you?
If you can't sue them, you should have named them to protect others from them. And sell off any of their inventory you had on the shelf to recover your losses
Guess they can't just sell 2nd party products. Either recycle them or donate to the worst client ever :D
Fourth
I don't feel it would be petty to formally announce a bad business deal. Especially if it's known throughout the industry.
Seccond
Make them known so they can’t screw anyone else!
I think you need to develop a tougher business skin. Sure, it's bad form what they did, but things like breach of contract, withholding info, and chapter 11 is all part of business, too. 🤷♂
First!
Welcome
You are not doing yourself or other print company any favours by not naming them
Leave them alone. The company going out of business. They are going through bad stuff and vengeful behavior to top it off is not good. Sadly, It's just part of doing bussiness.
In order to share the name you should have gone through with the lawsuit so everything (well some not all) would be on public record. Lot of money on your end to do it but now it would just seem bad form and make your company look kinda petty - just my opinion and I know other people will disagree but that's the fun about an opinion.